Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations) Order 2013
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, we are concerned here with further secondary legislation required to amend the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 1 Territories) Order 2003 and the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 2 Territories) Order 2003.
The background to this order is that it is necessary given the accession of the Republic of Korea to the European Convention on Extradition and the accession of Croatia to the European Union on 1 July 2013, from which time it will operate the European arrest warrant procedure. In addition, this order amends the time allowed for India to provide the necessary documentation following a person’s provisional arrest to reflect the terms of the bilateral extradition treaty in place between the UK and India. Therefore, three separate countries are the focus of this order.
To take these matters in sequence: first, the Republic of Korea is now a party to the European Convention on Extradition. This requires that extradition requests from the Republic of Korea be dealt with under Part 2 of the Extradition Act 2003, which in turn requires that the Republic of Korea be designated for the purposes of that part. That is what this order does. In addition, in line with the provisions of the ECE, this order ensures that when the Republic of Korea sends an extradition request to the UK, the request need be accompanied only with information—not evidence—which would justify the issue of an arrest warrant in a comparable domestic case.
The second country involved is Croatia, which, as we have already debated, will on 1 July accede to the European Union. We have considered the particular aspects relating to transitional arrangements. From 1 July, EU extraditions to and from Croatia will cease to take place under the ECE and will instead fall under the European arrest warrant procedure, the EAW. It is therefore necessary to redesignate Croatia as a Part 1 territory to ensure that we comply with our obligations under the framework decision on the EAW.
The third amendment relates to our extradition relations with India. The Extradition Act 2003 provides for a procedure known as a provisional arrest, whereby in urgent cases a state can ask for a person to be arrested in advance of sending the full papers making up the extradition request. Section 74 of the Act states that following a person’s provisional arrest, the extradition request must be received by the judge within 45 days, unless a longer period is designated by order. This allows the Secretary of State to provide for a longer period, where necessary, to reflect the terms of a bilateral treaty.
The UK concluded a bilateral extradition treaty with India in 1992, which has been in operation since 1993. Article 12 of the treaty specifies that following a provisional arrest the request should be received within 60 days. The UK considered that extradition with India was governed by the London Scheme for Extradition within the Commonwealth. Accordingly, India was not included in the list of territories in Article 4(2) of SI 2003/3334. However, we subsequently learnt that the Indian authorities regard the bilateral treaty as the vehicle for extradition between our two countries. This order ensures that this is reflected in our legislation by setting out that in the case of India the judge must receive the papers within 65 days of the person’s provisional arrest. This allows for India to provide the request to the Secretary of State within 60 days, as the treaty provides for, and for the Secretary of State to have five days to certify the request and send it to the appropriate judge.
I hope that noble Lords will understand the background to this collection of separate provisions within a single statutory instrument. The various amendments to the order are necessary to ensure that the United Kingdom can comply with its particular obligations under the relevant international extradition arrangements. I hope that, given my explanation, the Grand Committee will consider the order favourably.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, again I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation, which was helpful. I wish to raise only two points, one of which is a probing question. I listened carefully to what he said on India. I do not think that I am dumb, but I struggled to follow some of the reasons for the provisions. Perhaps it will be easier when I read Hansard.
The justification given in the Explanatory Notes is the one the Minister just gave, which is that the time limit regarding the extradition arrangements with India requires that country,
“to provide these documents to the Secretary of State within 60 days, and then provides a further five days in order to enable the Secretary of State to provide these documents to the appropriate judge”.
My understanding is that the Government are equalising the time allowed for the extradition procedure in the UK with that in India, but I am not clear why it is necessary. The Minister said that the Indian Government understood that to be the position. Are we changing it because there was a misunderstanding in 2003 when it came through? I would have thought that we would want to move to extradition as quickly as possible, and I am not clear whether this is extending or reducing the time made available, because nowhere in the order or the Explanatory Notes could I find what the time was before it was 60 days. Obviously it has been changed to 60 days from something, but I do not know from what. If it is in the Explanatory Notes, I apologise, but I could not find it when I was looking through them. It would be helpful to have that information on why it is coming through now. Has the current timescale, whatever it is, been in place since 2003 or did it exist before that?
I was very pleased to hear the Minister give such a positive explanation for and account of the European arrest warrant, which is something he and I have discussed before. I know the Government are reconsidering this issue, which has caused enormous concern to others in Europe as we extradite through the European arrest warrant and apply for extradition through the European arrest warrant. Can the Minister tell me how many times the UK has used the European arrest warrant for extradition to and from the UK? As the Government are bringing this order forward today, they clearly regard the order and the extension of the European arrest warrant to Croatia as helpful and desirable. Croatia will be subject to the European arrest warrant but, on the other hand, the Government are now considering withdrawing from all the police and justice measures, which include the European arrest warrant.
I welcome the comments the Minister has made today, and I am sure we will come back to those issues. However, it would be helpful if he can give me some background on the numbers—I am happy for him to write to me on that as I would not expect him to have that figure to hand—and also on the position of India and what the number has changed from to 60.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her willingness to support this statutory instrument. If the noble Baroness reads Hansard, she will see that I covered this point but I will repeat it. Section 74 of the 2003 Act, under which we were operating but the Indians were not, states that extradition requests must be received by the judge within 45 days. That is why we have had to change the timings to the original arrangement we had with India under our bilateral treaty.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
If the misunderstanding is between 45 and 60 days, why has it been changed to 60 rather than remained at 45? It would seem more advantageous to the Government if extradition proceedings took place as quickly as possible.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It is because the bilateral treaty overrides the Commonwealth agreement of 2003. That is the sole reason. The Indian Government have asserted that the Commonwealth treaty does not apply to India as we already had a bilateral treaty in place, which was not overridden. We are not disagreeing with them because it is, after all, a matter of mutual consent, and we wish to see it as such.
In answer to the question about numbers, the Home Secretary said that she would write to Parliament when the figures are available. I will chase this matter with the Home Secretary so that the figures are made available as soon as possible. I hope I have answered the questions. I think that if the noble Baroness reads Hansard, she will see the background of the Indian case.
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Application to immigration officers and designated customs officials in England and Wales) Order 2013
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, again, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. As I understand it, the order before us extends the powers of arrest, search and seizure to immigration officers and customs officials. The Minister will be aware that, in the interests of effective policing, we have called for these measures to be introduced. Clearly, given the kind of investigative work, particularly on issues such as human trafficking and facilitating illegal immigration, it is appropriate, as the order states, that officers should act within a PACE-compliant framework. That will now include customs and immigration officers. We support that.
The Minister would be disappointed if I did not ask him a couple of questions. Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to mixed investigative teams with the National Crime Agency, which makes sense if they are looking into serious organised crime relating to immigration issues or human trafficking. Does that mean, for example, that all customs or immigration officers acting in a joint team on an NCA investigation would have the same powers as the police officers in that team and that they would retain those powers? If it does not, can the Minister say anything about the differences? I assume that additional training would be required for the officers to ensure that they know the additional powers that they have and how they can properly use them.
On the joint teams, the NCA—as the Minister will know—will not apply fully to Northern Ireland because of a difficult situation which has arisen, which the Government could have done more to resolve early on, if I am honest. I am curious whether these powers and this order will also apply to customs and immigration officers in Northern Ireland, given that the NCA will not operate in that way in Northern Ireland. If the Minister could given me an answer on that, it would be very helpful. I notice our Northern Ireland spokespeople are here today and would be grateful if the point could be clarified. I see puzzled faces behind the Minister and, if it is not clarified today, I am happy for somebody to write to me about it.
It is also my understanding that, while police officers are members of the Police Federation, the new officers who will be subject to and have these powers—those employed by the border agency, for example, or Border Force—are members of a different trade union. Over the years, they will have had different rights at work and different terms and conditions of employment. The order makes no mention of any changes to those at all, so I have assumed that no changes are planned to their terms and conditions of employment or their rights at work and that no changes are expected. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that for me.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. The people working together on mixed teams will have those PACE powers only in relation to their particular function within that team. They will all derive their PACE powers from PACE, so there will be a common source, but it is not correct to assume that, for example, a police constable or an immigration officer will be exercising a customs officer’s powers.
As for Northern Ireland, officers of the National Crime Agency are not included in this particular order because the National Crime Agency has not been set up. The noble Baroness will know that the difficulty in Northern Ireland was occasioned not so much by the customs and immigration issues but by the general powers that exist. The noble Baroness will understand that there is only a partial transfer of responsibility and that National Crime Agency functions will still be exercised in Northern Ireland through powers secured through SOCA. I cannot give her an absolute answer on the extension of this particular attribute in Northern Ireland, but if I can write to the noble Baroness, that will enable me to put this particular change, which is largely designed for England and Wales, into context rather than complicating the matter by trying to answer the question on Northern Ireland.
Designated customs officials are already trained to exercise PACE powers and those immigration officers who carry out criminal investigations will receive equivalent training, relevant to the set of PACE powers to which they have access. The noble Baroness will be aware that the changes that have occurred within UKBA have been made without affecting any terms and conditions of employment of any of the individuals involved.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in his place. I would be very happy to make sure that he is involved, as I recognise his interest in the particular relationship of Northern Ireland to these changes within the statutory instrument.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I would be grateful if the Minister clarified one further point and perhaps agreed to write to me. He said something that I tried to jot down quickly—I am not sure that I got it right—about police officers having the powers of immigration officers and customs officers. I thought that it was the other way round regarding immigration officers and customs officers. Would they have those powers only when they are involved in a joint investigation with the NCA or will they have those powers independently when investigating such cases?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am sorry if I have confused the noble Baroness. I had it clear in my mind if it was not clear in my exposition. Each of these specialist elements—police, customs and immigration—are enforcement agencies operating in their particular way. Immigration officers hold their powers totally independently of these other powers. Each agency derives its powers from PACE in an independent fashion. However, it clearly makes it a lot easier, when they are working together, to have powers deriving from the same source, which they do not have at present. The noble Baroness was gracious enough to admit that the 2009 Act needed to put that right at some point in the future. This is the moment at which we have been able to do so.
Sexual Offences: Investigation and Prosecution
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, Damian Green, has set up a group designed to ensure that this is the case and that the police forces themselves are aware of the difficulties and the need to lend a positive ear to complaints from young children. My noble friend makes a very good point—that the point of failure in the system is that these allegations have not been listened to or taken seriously by the authorities in the past.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, the scale and type of sexual abuse has shocked the nation. Perhaps I may refer back to the Question from my noble and learned friend Lord Morris. Can the Minister confirm the number of serious, larger-scale sex abuse cases involving groups and gangs that have been investigated? My noble and learned friend suggested that there are about 54 such cases. The number is clearly over 30, which could mean that hundreds if not thousands of young people are suffering abuse at this moment. I listened carefully to the Minister’s answer and he was absolutely right about co-ordination. However, is he really confident that the Government have now got to grips with the matter and that the co-ordinated strategy which he spoke of deals with all aspects of these wicked crimes, including the reporting of them and the court proceedings?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I have in fact got a figure and it is a dramatic one: 2,409 children and young people were confirmed victims of sexual exploitation by either gangs or groups during the 14-month period from August 2010 to October 2011. Those figures speak for themselves and to the scale of what is being dealt with. I assure noble Lords that this Government are focusing their attention on the issue as much as any Government have done.
Queen’s Speech
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for his introduction to the gracious Speech. He is quite right that today’s debate covers a wide range of issues: crime, policing, Northern Ireland, constitutional issues, the rehabilitation of offenders—which the noble Lord spoke about in some detail—and forced marriage. Those are all important issues but it is clear that the headline that the Government really want from the gracious Speech is that they are tough on immigration. After their rout in the county council elections last week the Government are now on a mission to persuade the public that they understand their concerns. The role of your Lordships’ House is scrutiny—to see whether these measures really do what the Government say they will. Will these measures make a difference? My noble friend Lord Beecham will say more about the criminal justice plans in his winding-up speech for the Opposition at the end of the debate, so I shall start with the Government’s proposals on immigration.
Obviously we want to ensure that immigration, which is important for and to the UK, is properly controlled and managed and is fair. However, the Government’s programme promises to take action on issues where action has already been taken, where other government policies make it virtually impossible to deliver and where they have not yet worked out how such action can be achieved. Nothing in the speech would tackle the undercutting of local workers’ wages and terms and conditions or the exploitation of foreign workers. Nothing in the speech would have a real impact in improving the enforcement of the national minimum wage. Where in the gracious Speech are the measures to tackle the abuse of student visitor visas by bogus colleges or the backlog at the UK Border Agency in finding failed asylum seekers?
The programme includes legislation to ensure that Article 8—the right to stay in this country because of family connections—is not abused. We agree with that, and it is already in the Immigration Rules which were passed unanimously last year when we said that it should be in primary legislation. Those who do not have the right to live in this country should be deported. However, while the Government are talking tough, their actions do not mirror their words. Last year, the Government deported 900 fewer criminals than were deported in Labour’s last year in office—a fall of 16%. The backlog in finding failed asylum seekers has gone up, and the number of illegal immigrants deported has gone down. The UK Border Agency stated that in 40% of cases it has not been able to deport individuals because of administrative problems with the Home Office and diplomatic complications. Despite ministerial denials, therefore, it would be foolish to believe that budget cuts of 34% and staffing cuts of 5,000 have not had an impact. Of course they have. Can the Minister give an indication of how the Government propose generally to tackle the issue and assure us that the proposed legislation is not just a rehash of previously implemented Immigration Rules without any new action?
On the issue of limited access to certain benefits for European Economic Area national jobseekers and retained workers for six months, this is already in current regulations and in DWP guidance. It is something of a surprise that the Government have flagged this up as something new. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House what the difference is between the current law and the Government’s new announcement? Where are the changes that the Government have heralded? It seems to me that they are already in the guidance and that no real difference has been proposed. This is a missed opportunity because changing the habitual residence test would make a real difference. Although the test is effective in the majority of cases, one practical change which could be made quickly and very easily would be to add a presence test to clarify absolutely that jobseeker’s allowance cannot be claimed in a few days or weeks but that people will be expected to be in the country for some time or to contribute before they get anything back. Surely that would be more effective than the rehash which the Government have reannounced.
We agree with strong and effective action against those who employ and often exploit illegal immigrants. Such behaviour is already illegal, with fines of £10,000 for unknowingly employing each illegal immigrant and the possibility of a prison sentence for knowingly doing so. In so many cases the real problem is not the law but the enforcement of the law, with 800 fewer businesses being fined last year than were fined in 2010 under the previous Labour Government. Legislation can only ever be effective if it is monitored and enforced and in this case it is not. It is interesting that the Government now want to legislate for private landlords to check the immigration status of their tenants and to face fines if they do not and rent to somebody who is in this country illegally. It would be extremely helpful if the Minister could say something about this and shed some light on how it will be enforced. Only a few months ago the Housing Minister, Mr Mark Prisk MP, dismissed our proposals for a national housing register of private landlords. Do the Government now intend to set up such a register? If not, how do they expect to manage the checking and monitoring of private landlords? Would it not be far more effective to monitor and enforce standards in private rented housing and thus prevent the exploitation of the vulnerable—proposals which the Government have consistently rejected?
Similarly, the proposals to restrict migrant access to the NHS seem very unclear. As hospitals already have a legal duty to recover charges from overseas patients, this, too, is a matter of better enforcement. However, the notion that doctors will become an extended arm of the border force has rightly been met with alarm by the Royal College of General Practitioners. Even Vince Cable—a Cabinet Minister in the coalition—raised doubts about this policy yesterday. He said:
“There is a question about whether people who administer GPs’ surgeries and hospitals should be in the business of checking”,
people’s status. Will we all need to take our passport with us to visit a GP, or will the Government reintroduce, or try to reintroduce, ID cards? Yet again, the Government are talking tough, but the detail of what will actually change, what will be different, and how it will be enforced, is totally obscure, particularly when the Government make such savage cuts to resources.
The same applies to the Government’s proposals on crime and anti-social behaviour. The Government are cutting 15,000 police officers. That makes it harder for the police and local communities to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour. While the Government boast of falling crime, what becomes increasingly clear from evidence and reports, some published last week, is that budget cuts imposed on policing are leading to more criminals getting away with it. Last year more than 10,000 crimes of serious violence were dealt with through community resolution. That meant there was no formal sanction, no caution and no criminal record: just an apology to the victim. That is despite the Government’s official guidance saying that this should not happen. I am talking about serious, violent crime. When serious criminals are not even being cautioned, it is clear that there is a crisis—and not one that can be wished away by toothless legislation.
I worry that the Government’s action on anti-social behaviour is equally toothless. They were very critical of Labour’s anti-social behaviour orders, which I accept were not perfect. However, instead of reforming and strengthening them, the Government have decided bizarrely to water them down. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, said in his opening speech that the Government want to ensure a faster and more effective response. However, despite his claims that action could be taken in a matter of hours, the proposals for a community trigger to replace the ASBO would mean people having to wait until three separate complaints, or complaints from five different households, had been made before the agencies were compelled to take action. If we tell a complainant whose life is being blighted by anti-social behaviour that nothing will be done until there have been several more complaints, they will rightly conclude that no one cares. We understand how anti-social behaviour can blight people’s lives. That is why we propose a 24-hour guarantee to ensure a rapid response to complaints. We will discuss this further during scrutiny of the Bill and I hope the Minister will take seriously our suggestions, because we want to work with him to improve it.
In the announcement that forced marriage will be made a criminal offence, the Government are seeking to take further action on a very serious problem. Forced marriage can destroy people’s lives and should never be tolerated. That is why, when we were in government, we introduced protection orders through family courts to combat forced marriage, and why we support strengthening the law. We will be careful to scrutinise the legislation and work with the Government to ensure that the measures proposed do not end up being counterproductive in the fight to eradicate forced marriage in this country. We look forward to working with the Government to get the legislation that we all want to see on the statute book.
It would be helpful to have some clarity on constitutional issues that were widely promoted by the Government yet failed to appear in their programme. They consulted on a statutory register of lobbyists but have yet to issue their response. In February 2010 David Cameron said that he wanted to shine “the light of transparency” on lobbying so that politics,
“comes clean about who is buying power and influence”.
At the 2010 general election, he declared that lobbying was,
“the next big scandal waiting to happen”.
Recent media reports that Ministers dropped plans for plain packaging for cigarettes because of lobbying by the tobacco industry served to highlight the need to regulate the lobbying industry and the fact that it remains as important as ever—so why are there no proposals in this programme?
The current draft proposals from the Government cover only a very narrow section of the lobbying industry. They have not proposed any code of conduct for lobbyists, without which there can be no mechanism to regulate the register. Details of the meetings that lobbyists have with government will not be included on any register. In many respects these are retrograde steps. The Government have to get serious about lobbying transparency. If we are to give an assurance to a sceptical public that politics is serious about cleaning up its act, we need action now. I am not anti-lobbying; I make that very clear. However, it needs to be open, transparent and regulated.
I will raise one further issue on constitutional matters and hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me. It is the transition to individual electoral voter registration. All of us in this House should—and, I think, do—want the widest possible participation in all elections. Turnout figures of 30% and even lower in local elections are truly shocking. Turnouts at general elections are falling consistently and we should be concerned. There is a general concern among all of us who wish to see the maximum turnout in elections that the move to individual rather than household registration will, if undertaken too quickly and without sufficient safeguards and resources, lead to a fall in the number of people registering to vote, and a loss of people who are engaged in the political system. A transition date for a new type of register to come into effect and go live has been set for 2016 but, during the passage of the Electoral Registration and Administration Act, the Government gave themselves a reserve power to bring the date for individual registration forward to 2015 if they felt that the transition was progressing well. Who is to make that judgment? In the interests of transparency, and given the importance of the issue, it should not be rushed but should be put before an independent assessment of the impact. I hope that the Minister can provide reassurance on this. Will he commit to ensuring that the Electoral Commission is asked to assess and judge the status of the transition?
I am suffering from McNally’s throat, I think.
Finally, although it was not mentioned in the gracious Speech, I welcome the commitment yesterday from the Leader of the House that the equal marriage Bill will be brought before your Lordships’ House as early business. I look forward, as do noble Lords across the House, to passing that Bill. There is a real pride on these Benches that we introduced the Civil Partnership Act. As with this Bill, it drew support from across your Lordships’ House. We now have the opportunity to build on that legacy by extending marriage to those couples who wish to make that loving, lifelong commitment and have their relations celebrated and recognised in the same way as heterosexual couples.
This is a pretty thin programme for the coming Session, although we note, as always, the final sentence of all gracious Speeches:
“Other measures will be laid before you”.
As the Government’s Bills are debated in your Lordships’ House, we will look at the detail and support good legislation through scrutiny. We want to work with the Government whenever possible to ensure that we make real, not cosmetic, changes, which make a real and positive difference to people’s lives.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I can confirm that that will be the case. I for my part will be supporting the Bill, but that is my own position. I have listened to my noble friend Lady Stowell speak on the issue. I am sure that she will convince a vast majority of noble Lords of the rightness of this Bill, which is about giving those who want to get married the opportunity to do so while protecting the rights of those who do not agree with same-sex marriage. No one stands to lose, but we all stand to gain by building on a tradition of tolerance and inclusiveness. I must sum up, because I am going on a bit longer than I should.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I do not want to detain the noble Lord, but he is always generous and courteous in seeking to answer questions raised in the course of the debate. I raised a specific point about individual voter registration and the reserved power that the Government have over the Electoral Commission. I appreciate that he will not have time tonight, but if he could write to me on that specific point, I would be very grateful.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Yes, certainly I will. I have no information about any decision to be made on that.
Tourism: Visa Restrictions
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My noble friend has a distinguished record as a promoter of British interests around the world, and I take very careful note of what she says. However, I reiterate that where we are dealing with countries where we require biometric co-ordinates, it has to be done properly, which sometimes necessitates it being an out of country application. I apologise that I cannot give particular details in response to my noble friend’s question, but I hope that assists her.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, is the Minister aware of recent reports from the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration, who has highlighted some very serious issues that cause delays in decisions on visa applications? Previously, the chief inspector has complained about his recommendations being accepted but not acted upon. This, as I know the noble Lord understands, causes huge problems for our economy and for our reputation abroad. Can the Minister give the House an update on the action that is now being taken to give effect to the inspector’s recommendations to address this problem?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think the noble Baroness is well aware that the Home Office has taken a decision about the UKBA, which will mean that the processing of visas is separate from enforcement from now on. This will make a considerable difference. I know John Vine and have a great deal of respect for him. His reports are always very high value and I believe that the UKBA is learning an enormous amount from the advice that he is giving them. The Home Office takes his report seriously.
Human Trafficking
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Baroness for that question. If noble Lords have the time today, they should go to the Upper Waiting Hall on the Grand Stairway to the Committee Room Corridor and visit the exhibition there, because it demonstrates how vulnerable those people are. Local authorities have a big responsibility in this regard. We have recently commissioned a review by the Children’s Society and the Refugee Council which will consider the experience of trafficked children in local authority care and try to establish good practice for local authorities. The review will report later this year.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, the Minister will be aware of this week’s Lords EU Committee report, which stated that to opt out of EU policing and justice measures would,
“weaken the ability of the United Kingdom’s police and law enforcement authorities to cooperate with … other Member States regarding cross-border crime”.
Last year, 420 requests were made to the UK for immigration and human trafficking offences under the European arrest warrant. I am genuinely puzzled. I hope that the Minister can help me, because I know that he cares about the issue. How do the Government believe that opting out would fulfil the Prime Minister’s pledge to make Britain a world leader in the fight against human trafficking?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I do not see any conflict between our policy objective of re-evaluating our relationship on a number of European matters with our strategy for human trafficking which, by definition, involves co-operation with other countries, responding to other countries’ requests and making sure that other countries work with us to tackle this problem at source. We have representatives in vulnerable countries making sure that we are well aware of the scale of these operations overseas and are doing our best to stop at source the crime of young people being picked up to be brought to this country, as we know too well they are.
Police: Convicted Officers
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My noble friend is right about the vetting procedures. The Government are committed to improving the integrity of the police. As noble Lords will know, on 12 February, the Home Secretary announced a package of measures to improve police integrity, and yesterday, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and the police Minister Damian Green discussed police integrity with police and crime commissioners, who, as my noble friend will know, are responsible for making sure that these standards are maintained within their force areas.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, but he sounds a bit complacent about it. He is absolutely right that the integrity of the police is important not just to the public but to other serving police officers, who are dismayed that so many of their colleagues have convictions for serious offences. He says that he has had discussions; can he tell me what action will follow from them?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I have already talked about the 12 February announcement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The noble Baroness will know that part of our policy for improving standards within the police lies with the establishment of a College of Policing, which is leading a programme of ways to improve police integrity. It is important that the police generate these standards from within their own experience. It is not necessary for the Home Office to impose a standard on the police service. We are great believers that the integrity of the police force and the capacity for maintaining it lie within the police service itself. The figures that I have given have shown exactly that.
Crime and Courts Bill [HL]
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am certain it is the nature of these things that following the review, Parliament would have an opportunity to debate the issue before the super-affirmative proposal is laid. I made the point earlier that any party affected by this secondary legislation has the right to be consulted. Parliament itself is likely to express a view when that decision of a review is made, before a super-affirmative procedure is even tabled. I cannot imagine an issue of this importance passing noble Lords’ attention and not being brought to the attention of the Minister in this House to account for what was being proposed. I cannot see that being a realistic scenario. I would expect to have to answer to this House for a decision of that nature. Indeed, the super-affirmative procedure provides for an opportunity for full consideration of the detail, as the noble Lord has said, of what is going to be required in the transfer of these powers.
My noble friend Lady Hamwee asked about tasking powers in the NCA because they apply to police forces in England and Wales and they would apply to the functions of the NCA. For the moment, that is limited to serious and organised crime, but in future it could include counterterrorism if such functions were confirmed through secondary legislation, or the super-affirmative procedure, in the future.
This has been a useful debate. I do not waver from my conviction that the House has a role to play in debating the issues, but I think that the provisions of the Bill, as amended by the Commons, provide the right mechanism for doing so.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I have listened with great care to the Minister, and I think he has done his best to reassure the House on the level of scrutiny that he proposes. However, I think he falls into the same mistake that his colleague Jeremy Browne made in the other place as seeing this as a procedural issue. He will have heard from noble Lords tonight with enormous experience—far more experience than either he or I have in these matters—that it is not regarded as a procedural issue but a very serious issue.
I said in my opening remarks, and the noble Lord, Lord Reid, made the same point, that the greatest responsibility that a Government and, I think, a Parliament have to their citizens is to ensure their safety and security. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, indicated his assent on that as well. As the noble Lord, Lord Reid, said, adding scrutiny to what he regards as a questionable transfer—although others would see it differently—but to something that raises concern, can only help rather than hinder any Government. Our Cross-Bench Peers with enormous experience in this, such as the noble Lords, Lord Condon and Lord Blair, with their vast experience of policing, raised real concerns about how such a transfer could be effective.
The Minister talks about a review and places great store by that review and the ability of noble Lords to contribute to it, but a review is not primary legislation. He says that a Government would seek to hitch to another Bill such a proposal to transfer counterterrorism from the Met to the new National Crime Agency. I would not expect Her Majesty’s Government to hitch something to another Bill, and I do not know what the Minister is gesticulating about, because this is a serious issue. It is hard to conceive, as other noble Lords have said, of a time when this would be in emergency legislation; it would be the wrong time, but noble Lords across your Lordships’ House would do their best to ensure proper and effective scrutiny in the interests of good legislation, for no other reason than to make sure that we get something so serious absolutely right.
The Minister will have heard that there are doubts as to whether such a transfer would be appropriate. It is because some doubts have been raised that there should be a proper process and procedure for parliamentary scrutiny to ensure that, if such a step is taken, at some point in future, after review and after the Government are satisfied that the NCA is operating correctly, those doubts should be raised in primary legislation. It is absolutely crucial; if the Home Secretary wants to take this step, she needs to ensure that she has the confidence not just of Parliament but of all those involved in counterterrorism. That is what proper and effective scrutiny through primary legislation would seek to achieve.
The Minister has tried, but he has failed to convince me that a super-affirmative order that is unamendable, even if the Home Secretary wants it to be amended, and which does not have the degree of scrutiny of primary legislation, is an appropriate way in which to move forward on something so serious and important to the nation. I therefore ask to test the opinion of the House.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, when the Crime and Courts Bill first came to your Lordships’ House, I questioned the Minister as to whether it was—I think I used the term—“oven ready”, as there seemed to be so much left to do in the Bill. Given that what was then a 41-clause Bill now has 18 new clauses, it was right to ask that question. The extradition issues, as we have heard from noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, have been tagged on to the Bill. Indeed, the framework document which outlines everything the National Crime Agency should do and how it should do it is still not available, despite promises made at almost every stage of the Bill in your Lordships’ House and the other place.
One thing that emphasises that point is that no agreement was reached with the Northern Ireland political parties or the Assembly around what kind of architecture would work for Northern Ireland to ensure that, as we started the process, there would be a legislative consent Motion. To scrap SOCA, which has worked effectively with the PSNI in Northern Ireland, before the National Crime Agency is properly in place across the whole of the UK is an absolutely shocking state of affairs. It does a disservice to Northern Ireland and is hugely unfair to it.
I understand that having discussions and negotiations with all those involved to ensure that agreement can be reached can be difficult and very time-consuming. The Government were right to have discussions and negotiations with David Ford, the Justice Minister, and I would accept and agree that he has worked extremely hard to find a way through this to ensure that the National Crime Agency could fully operate in Northern Ireland. However, I say to the Minister that the responsibility has to be that of government. I realise that in their negotiations with David Ford the Government have worked hard, but what I am puzzled about, and where I have a question mark over the Government’s actions, is that those who have been involved more closely in Northern Ireland know that in order to reach agreement on this issue—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is very aware of this—you have to start early discussions with all the political parties, the elected representatives and all those who have a role to play. The comments made by Mark Durkan in the other place last week indicate to me that the discussions did not take place early enough.
I asked two Parliamentary Questions, one to the Minister and one to the Northern Ireland Office, about what discussions had taken place ahead of there being no legislative consent Motion before today’s debate. The Answer I had from the Northern Ireland Office was that:
“The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has spoken regularly to the Northern Ireland Justice Minister about the National Crime Agency. He”—
the Justice Minister—
“has been leading discussions with Northern Ireland Executive colleagues about the National Crime Agency. The Secretary of State has not discussed the matter in detail with other Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. The Government remain committed to delivering a UK-wide crime-fighting agency focused on tackling serious, organised and complex crime”.—[Official Report, 28/2/13; col. WA 354]
If the Government are so focused, why were discussions not taking place with other Ministers in the Executive, who have a role in accepting a legislative consent Motion, and the representatives of political parties?
I have to say to the noble Lord that the response from the Home Office was dire. It said:
“Home Office Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of international partners, as well as organisations and individuals in the public and private sectors, as part of the process of policy development and delivery. Details of these meetings are published on the Cabinet Office website on a quarterly basis”.—[Official Report, 27/2/13; cols. WA 333-34]
I was asking specifically whether Ministers had met and spoken to, and how often, the Northern Ireland Justice Minister and other Ministers in the Executive to try to get this moving. The response I get is that Ministers and officials have met “a wide variety of international partners”. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Discussions were needed not with international partners but with the political parties and representatives of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That may mean that the Government, or the Home Office, have been talking to the Irish Government, which is a fair way forward, but not to be having those discussions that I think were necessary has led us to the point where, like the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I do not know, and do not share the Minister’s confidence, that this can be resolved in the way that we would like to ensure there is a fully functioning National Crime Agency across the whole of the UK.
I ask the Minister, in the absence of answers to my Written Questions—if he has to write to me I will accept that but if he is able to answer today that would be helpful—when did Ministers first raise the issue of the National Crime Agency, with or without the counterterrorism functions, with the Northern Ireland Ministers and political parties? Who has led the discussion? Has it been the NIO or has it been the Home Office, and who did they meet? However, the crucial question has to be: what happens now? What next? The Motion before us today from the Government that removes application provisions from the Bill is, under the circumstances, perhaps the only way forward at this stage. However, I hope we are going to see a step-up and continuation of the process in the interest of fighting serious and organised crime effectively in Northern Ireland and that there is not going to be a step back by removing Northern Ireland from today’s legislation.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I understand the distress and disappointment, and if I may use the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the pessimism that he feels about these issues is clearly reflected in other contributions that have been made by other noble Lords. On the other hand, I am optimistic because, despite the criticism made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, we have sought to address these issues properly. If we had been overassertive in the requirements of the United Kingdom in this regard, we would have alienated a legitimate discussion process that was correctly placed with David Ford, the Justice Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, and in the key position of securing these agreements. We were keen not to put him in the situation where we were seeking to second-guess where he was taking these discussions.
I will answer the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in writing because she asked particularly about dates and so on. I do not have that information. Ministers and officials have had a number of meetings with David Ford throughout this process. The noble Baroness will know that I have talked to her about this on occasions outside this Chamber when she has asked me how things were going on this. I remember saying that it is a difficult and delicate matter. All noble Lords with experience of Northern Ireland will understand exactly why that is so. The Government were right that while we were prepared to compromise on a number of challenging areas, the negotiations had not been held on the basis of securing consent at all costs. I think noble Lords will be pleased that that is the case. That must be the right position for the Government of the United Kingdom to take on this issue.
For noble Lords who think that the Government should have intervened directly, I should say that this is devolution, a devolved process. It is absolutely right that the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, David Ford, led these discussions. He has admirably served the interests of Northern Ireland in this regard with remarkable resilience, driving the discussions and negotiations at each turn, even in the face of some clear opposition. I have confidence in him, which is why I am ultimately optimistic that the people of Northern Ireland, through their elected representatives, will see the importance of having a combined national involvement with the National Crime Agency because of the capacity that it will bring to policing in Northern Ireland.
We are not in the business of creating gaps. The NCA was intended to close gaps in the current arrangements. That was in the Bill that we planned to create, but the Executive could not agree, which is why these amendments are before the House. We remain open to discussion and we have provided the necessary order-making powers to fully extend the NCA provisions to Northern Ireland should the position of the Executive change. Assuming the Executive stick to their decision, it is up to them to decide how to develop alternative capabilities for Northern Ireland to replace the work currently done by SOCA. As I have said, we are committed to providing as much operational capacity and capability as possible for the NCA operating in Northern Ireland. But, as I made clear, in the absence of legislative consent there are some things that the NCA will no longer be able to do, such as using Northern Ireland police powers to investigate serious and organised crime. This is to be regretted.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I will make a few comments, in particular in relation to the civil recovery process. The Government are right, following the Perry judgment, which left a huge hole in our powers to recover criminal assets, to bring forward the matter and put it on a legislative footing. However, we come back to the very strange position in Northern Ireland, which was confirmed by the Minister here and by Jeremy Browne, the Minister in the other place.
The primary purpose of the schedule is to ensure that it is not possible to make a civil recovery order against property located outside the UK if the unlawful conduct occurred in Northern Ireland but the property is located outside Northern Ireland. This is a strange position. If somebody lives in Birmingham, Manchester or London and they stash their ill gotten gains in another part of the world such as Dublin or Spain, there is a legislative remedy to seek an order to have the funds returned. However, if somebody lives in Belfast, Armagh or another part of Northern Ireland and they have their ill gotten gains just a few miles away across the border, they are completely outside the remit of the legislation of this country. Criminals in Northern Ireland will be able to invest their criminal gains across the border in the Republic of Ireland, just a quick drive down the motorway, with complete impunity as the courts will have no way of seizing those assets. I find that a shocking state of affairs to face.
I took some time yesterday and on Google maps followed the border along. I always think of the town of Belleek where, if you walk down the high street, your mobile phone signal beeps from one side to the other because the border is so close that it is switching from the Irish server to the UK one. If you follow the border along, it is very difficult. A criminal could buy land in that area. We do not assume that everyone in Northern Ireland is going to do this, but criminals will know that if they live in Northern Ireland but store the proceeds of their crime just a few miles across the border, they are going to be outside the remit of legislation and nothing can be done. I have to agree with Ian Paisley MP, who said in the other place that,
“the situation gives gangsters and criminals in Northern Ireland who are involved in serious and organised crime a free rein in part of the United Kingdom, and that must be addressed”.—[Official Report, Commons,13/03/2013; col. 373.]
Another worry that the Government must have is criminals moving to Northern Ireland because it will make it easier for them in that situation. It really is a shocking state of affairs.
I heard what the Minister said earlier and I understand his view that it is right to leave all the negotiations to David Ford. However, the point was made by the MP and others that this impacts on the United Kingdom as a whole and on places other than Northern Ireland. I feel that David Ford, for all the efforts he has made, deserves a bit more support from British Ministers in talking to the political parties, Members of the Assembly and Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive to try and reach a solution. It damages us all if people can move to Northern Ireland to store their ill gotten gains from anywhere else in the world and nothing can be done about it.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Baroness. She has raised an issue that I have identified already. I should reassure her that the Government are giving all the support to David Ford that he would ask for. However, in many ways the solution to this problem clearly lies with the people of Northern Ireland because it is the Northern Ireland Assembly that controls the Northern Ireland Executive. Indeed, this is long term an unacceptable state of affairs because of the very difficulties referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. We are well aware of it. That is why we have tabled order-making powers. As with other measures where we have not been able to get a legislative consent Motion, we are making every effort successfully to deliver a legislative consent Motion. We will then be able to ensure that these particular powers apply to Northern Ireland. There are dangers if they do not do so.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that explanation. I do not want to detain the House. Is he saying that he does not see any role or any responsibility for Home Office or Northern Ireland Ministers in trying to resolve this position?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I started off by saying to the noble Baroness that we have given all the help that we believe will be helpful to getting a solution to this problem. We would do nothing other than do all we can to ensure that we get the legislative consent Motion which a number of measures under the Bill require to bring Northern Ireland fully into the provisions of the legislation that is being provided for in the Bill.
Visas: Chinese Visitors
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am disappointed that the Minister sounds extraordinarily complacent on this issue. He has heard from all sides of the House that there is a serious problem, and it is not the case that people are saying there should be no visas. It seems that we are making matters extraordinarily difficult for people from China and, as we have heard, from Brazil who would contribute to the economy of this country. Does the Home Office or any other part of government undertake an economic assessment of the impact these visa regulations are having?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, there are no visas for Brazil, and there is no plan to introduce them. That decision was made last week, and an announcement was made to that effect.
I am not complacent about this issue. I see the enormous potential of tourism and commercial links with China. I think it is a very important area of activity. However, as I explained in my answers to noble Lords, we need to maintain a visa system for our own border security. Having decided that we need to put one into place, and I am very pleased to hear that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, agrees with that decision, the task is to try to make sure that the processing is as straightforward and easy as possible.
I have given illustrations of the figures. We should talk in figures and not in speculation. I have given the figures that 97% of visa applications are processed within 15 days and that our charge of £81 compares with the £126 it costs a UK citizen for a visa to go to China. We try to keep our service as competitive as possible, and it is right to do so.
Crime: Detection Rates
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of crime detection rates.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, this Government do not assess the performance of police forces through centrally mandated targets. However, we are ensuring that the public and PCCs have access to consistent and comprehensive information on all crime outcomes. This supports police accountability, as the public can now hold the police to account for how they respond to crime in their area.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am not sure that that really answers my Question. Perhaps I can be clearer. Government cuts mean that 15,000 fewer police officers will be in place by the time of the next election. It is not therefore rocket science to understand that last year 30,000 fewer crimes were solved. The Minister will be aware that forensic evidence is a key part of bringing criminals to justice. Can I direct him to yesterday’s evidence from Michael Turner QC, chairman of the Criminal Bar Association, to the Science and Technology Committee of the other place? He said that following the Government’s abolition of the highly regarded Forensic Science Service, the quality of expert witnesses being used by the crown was now, in his words, “variable”. Is the Minister aware of the frustration of so many investigating police officers who are experiencing serious delays in getting the forensic evidence reports they have taken at the scene of crime? They are not getting them in time. Given the questions on the quality and delays in the system in getting a forensic evidence service, does the Minister think that scrapping the Forensic Science Service was a good idea?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I have been to a number of forensic science laboratories in the course of my work, and I have seen that the quality of work being done there is second to none. Indeed, on DNA activity in particular, we are ahead of the game. It is important to emphasise that the background painted by the noble Baroness is inaccurate to the extent that she failed to recognise that recorded crime was down by 10% in the first two years of this Government.