Police: Reduction in Numbers

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the reduction in the number of police officers.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, what matters is front-line services—that is, how effective the police are at fighting crime. The Government are clear that the effectiveness of a police force depends not on overall numbers but on how well it deploys its resources.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That is an interesting but slightly disappointing response from the Minister. Can I give him an example of the impact of these cuts? Twenty police stations in Essex, 28 in Hampshire and a staggering 34 in Devon and Cornwall are no longer open to the public. Across the country, we are losing police officers—500 in Sussex, 438 in south Yorkshire and more than 1,900 in the Met. I would never argue against any cuts.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That has been the Labour Party position consistently. We are not against cuts. But even the HMIC and the Audit Commission warned of dangers of cuts in the police of more than12%. The Government are cutting around 20%. What evidence is there that cutting so much above 12% would not lead to an increase in crime victims, and what estimate can the noble Lord give of any increase or decrease in crime in the next 12 months?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for at last saying that she and her colleagues are not arguing against making any cuts. The noble Baroness will accept that we inherited the toughest fiscal challenge in living memory and therefore we had to make cuts—cuts that the noble Baroness’s own party would have made in the unlikely event that it had won the election. We have been clear that it is necessary to make cuts and that there is no simple link between officer numbers and crime levels. We want to make sure that we get the right people in the right place at the right time in the front line, doing the right job.

Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Doocey]

I hope that noble Lords will forgive me; I am losing my voice. I have no problem in principle with the order. As a former chair of finance of the Metropolitan Police Authority, I am very much in favour of anything that can be done to make economies of scale and efficiencies. However, I have a number of concerns. Wearing the hat of somebody who sat for eight years on the Metropolitan Police Authority, I emphasise that my knowledge and experience is of the Met rather than of police forces nationwide. Therefore, with that caveat, I know that there are various concerns in the Met, and I wonder if the Minister can help to allay some of those concerns, particularly about the issues of governance and structure as set out in the draft agreement.

The strategy board has got quite a lot of power: it can approve annual capital budgets and determine the direction of the service. However, there is no representation on the board for PCCs—and in the case of London, for the MOPC—other than from the lead force. Can the Minister tell us how these people will be consulted, as the introduction of PCCs is clearly one of the key parts of the government legislation, and what proposals and process will there be for considering any concerns that emerge?

I appreciate that the Minister talked in his introduction about issues being resolved locally. However, I have a slight concern that if there is not quite a good steer from the Government on how these issues can be resolved, that might be a major problem down the line. I think that it would be helpful to address those issues now.

I have another concern. Although having an integrated strategy for the air service is clearly sensible, how will this affect the local accountability of local police forces? I wonder if the Minister could address that point as well.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, I welcome the principle of what the Government are seeking to do here—I do not think that there can be any disagreement on it. However, like her, I have some concerns. I am sure that the Minister can help allay those concerns when he addresses the questions.

I was interested when the Minister spoke about the consultation that took place. He quoted the parts that were in the impact assessment, which was very helpful. As I mentioned to the noble Lord previously, I tried to access the Home Office website to get more information on the consultation responses. I hope that my complaints about the website do not become a familiar theme in these Committee sittings or when I discuss Home Office matters. However, I find it the most difficult website to access that I have ever used. It has crashed on me something like six times in the past week, which is as long as I have been in this post. I therefore felt at a disadvantage on this order by not being able to read the consultation responses. I take on board entirely, and accept the Minister’s explanation, that none of the responses was directly opposed.

However, the situation with the website makes this slightly more difficult. I would have liked to know the difficulties that have prevented voluntary implementation from taking place. The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, has been very helpful in using her experience with the Metropolitan Police to outline some of the issues.

The Minister says that there have been discussions for some time, that no one is directly opposed to it and that everybody seems to think that it is a good idea—and yet it does not happen. So, what is the precise nature of the difficulties? One wonders whether those difficulties, depending on how practical they are, can be removed simply by implementing legislation. If they are practical difficulties which the police are trying to resolve, putting legislation in place will not make them go away. One question—if we can legislate to change things—is whether he thinks that the police are simply being difficult by not reaching a voluntary agreement on the issues of concern which have prevented voluntary collaboration to the degree that the Minister would like. As the police, presumably, will still have to agree the details of the arrangements being put in place, it would be helpful to have a little more information about the difficulties and how they will be overcome by legislation.

I appreciate that savings have to be made—I am not querying that. I would never deny the need to make savings. Indeed, I am one of those who look for genuine efficiencies to save money. However, when police forces are fully under the budgetary cosh in many ways, collaboration can become more difficult for them—understandably, it makes it that little bit harder to co-operate. If the Minister can say something more about the agreements that need to be put in place, and the discussions taking place to make that happen, that would be welcome.

Perhaps I may also say something briefly about savings versus efficiency. Where crime prevention and crime detection are concerned, efficiency savings are one thing, but cuts in service, or reduction in the quality of service, is another.

I am seeking assurances from the Minister, because the impact assessment is perhaps slightly woolly on this. It says that in some areas it is expected that the collaboration will be resolved by some increases in response times for air support. It goes on to state the positives, including that a 24-hour service will be available to all forces. Will the Minister quantify what those increases in response times will be? Will they be significant? Which areas will be affected the greatest? Assurances from the Minister on that would be most welcome. In principle, the direction of greater co-operation and collaboration between police forces is welcome. I should be grateful if the Minister will address the issues that I have raised.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for the failings of the Home Office website. We have to admit that it is not the most perfect website. No doubt it can be improved, and in due course we will look to improve it to make sure that the noble Baroness can access information as and when she would like. That is why my noble friend Lord McNally and I made it clear when we met yesterday to discuss other matters that we would provide hard copies of certain information, to ensure that she does not have to go through this problem again.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord’s offer. However, as I said to him yesterday, he might not appreciate a call on a Sunday afternoon when I am working at home. I appreciate his going back to the Home Office to try to resolve this matter.

[Lord Henley]

I certainly would not appreciate a call from the noble Baroness on a Sunday afternoon. I might not be available and I would not have access to the papers either. Obviously we have to improve this website, because we all want to use it on a Sunday afternoon. That is the point of having an efficient website. It is why all of us, in a whole range of departments, have been subject to such complaints. We take that on board and will look at the website to see what we can do.

As regards the noble Baroness’s request for access to the consultation responses, my understanding is that it was a very limited consultation and the responses were not published on our website. Therefore, that is probably one of the reasons why the noble Baroness could not get them. If they are available, I will make sure that she gets them.

I should have made clear in my opening remarks how much I welcome the noble Baroness to Home Office matters. I saw her dealing with that rather extraordinary debate we had on the Queen’s Speech, which covered a whole range of departments. On that occasion, I did not have the opportunity—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Unfortunately, I was unable to speak during the Queen’s Speech debate, but we crossed swords across the Dispatch Box at Question Time.

[Lord Henley]

In whatever way, I am at fault in that I have not welcomed the noble Baroness to the Home Office brief. I do so with great warmness and I look forward to many debates. She also asked about having to look at the savings that are coming about and what we are trying to achieve. Perhaps I may remind her that the exercise goes back to 2009 when her own party was in government. It sensibly started because police forces—some 43 of them plus the British Transport Police—vary in size enormously from the Met to, say, in my own area, Cumbria, which is a very small police force. Therefore, it is very difficult for some police forces to provide the same coverage as others. That is why we are looking at much more working together of all police forces and rationalisation of the services provided, and into which individual forces could buy in as necessary.

As a result, quite obviously, one would be able to find appropriate savings and produce a better service for the different police authorities. In the process, I would be able to guarantee that even a force such as Cumbria, which obviously would not be able to afford such a thing on its own, could provide helicopter coverage 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, in a way that the Met, which obviously is a much bigger police force, would be able naturally to do on its own. That is what we hope we will be able to do. Obviously, it is very difficult for all of them to get together. That is one of the reasons why it was important to give a general shove to the forces, to try to deal with these matters. The noble Baroness particularly asked what exactly had impeded that agreement. I can say that there has been general agreement on the principle. The order provides the imperative since my noble friend announced his intention to make the order. It gives that extra shove from the centre, just to make sure that the things asked for will happen in due course.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) Order 2012

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, I will be very brief. This is clearly a sensible precaution. It is very necessary and I very much welcome it. In view of the very nasty and harmful effects of what is known of this drug—which I am not even going to try to pronounce—it is, if anything, overdue, and I think it is a splendid idea.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, again I thank the noble Lord for his explanation. We welcome and support the order. The purpose and the benefits are quite clear. I will not follow in his footsteps and try to pronounce it. I am told the street name is “mexxy”—MXE—and I will stick with that because it is far easier to pronounce.

I have a couple of concerns, not around the specific action taken here but about the process and time it takes to get to this point. Both Switzerland and Russia have already banned MXE. I have a slight concern over whether the processes in place are quick enough to respond to the changes that are made. I know that the Minister is aware of the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, which has a key role in detection and assessment of new drugs within the EU. There is a recognition that these “legal high” drugs require very rapid action across Europe.

Since the Government came to power, the EMCDDA has identified 90 new substances during 2010-11, but I am concerned that the Home Office early-warning system has only identified 11. I am not clear why there would be a discrepancy between the two. If the Minister was able to say something about that, it would be helpful. It may be that the processes that we employ here in the UK mean there are others in the pipeline—perhaps they are with the ACMD, I do not know.

It would also be useful to know when the Home Office became aware that MXE was a drug on which action should be taken. If the Minister can say anything about the work with the EMCDDA, that would be helpful. It seems quite clear that the EMCDDA is very much ahead of the game as to what is happening across Europe as a whole.

I was quite shocked when reading about this SI—and the Minister reiterated the point—by the easy availability of these drugs via the internet. That does not confine itself to national boundaries. Also, the number of internet stores selling MXE increased in a very short space of time. In January 2011 there were 14 online stores; by July, within six months, this had risen to 58 online stories selling MXE. Any delay in banning such drugs allows them to become established very quickly. How is it possible to monitor such internet sites? Is this the responsibility of SOCA, which is to become the National Crime Agency? How are these sites monitored to ensure that they do not take hold in the same way?

One of the things that the impact assessment said was that there was a risk that a minor chemical change in the drug could make a new drug that would then be legal and unaffected by the order being made today. Are the Government looking at this issue? If they are not, we could have a constant flow of temporary orders each time there is a minor chemical change in the drug.

Finally, the impact assessment and briefing notes from the Home Office highlighted the importance of education in drugs awareness. Young people hear about the drug, but think that it is a legal high and do not realise the quite devastating implications and consequences. At the moment, we have the Drug Education Forum, which brings together 30 high-profile, high-quality and knowledgeable organisations across the UK, including ACPO and the NSPCC. Unfortunately, the Department for Education has withdrawn the funding from this body. My colleague Diana Johnson, Member of Parliament and shadow Minister for the Home Office in the other place, has written to the noble Lord about this and I think that it would be helpful if the Government were able to look at this again. Clearly, by their own analysis, education is key to young people understanding the dangers of such drugs. It would be very sad to see good action in one part of the Government being undermined by action in another part that makes it more difficult to tackle this problem. We certainly support the order but would be grateful for responses to these questions.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I thank both my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I reiterate that this is the first time that we have used this new order. The point behind it is to act much more quickly than we ever could in the past when we see new drugs being developed. That is why we created this system, which allowed me to refer this at a relatively early stage to the ACMD, get its advice and then bring in this temporary order, which will remain in effect for a year while the ACMD does further work on deciding whether this is right or proper.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, will know from some of the questions that were put to my honourable friend in the debate in the Commons, there is this faint danger, particularly with the way these things are developing, that we are constantly chasing after new drugs as new things develop. That is particularly the case when, as she put it, you can have a very minor change in something that creates a new drug that is not covered. We therefore obviously have to consider whether some more generic approach might be more appropriate in the future.

Immigration: Controls at Airports

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I am sure that the noble Baroness is right to point to the need for better training. I am sure that the border force and the border agency will take that on board. But it is more than that; there are other matters that we can deal with to improve service in this area.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, does the noble Lord find it humiliating that the queues at Heathrow are the butt of Twitter messages and jokes around the world? Does he accept the strong criticism from the Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration that the problems at Heathrow are caused by massive cuts of 15% of the staff, at the same time as massive organisational changes and a massive lack of good management; or, does he agree with the Immigration Minister in the other place, Damian Green, who says that since May 2010 there has been the wrong kind of wind?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is very selective in what she says about my honourable friend’s evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee yesterday. That is not surprising. I say yet again that all we get from the Opposition is that this is due to a reduction in numbers of staff. It is nothing to do with reductions in numbers of staff.

Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions and Community Energy Saving) (Amendment) Order 2011

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, on our Benches we certainly support the measures in the order. I have three quick questions for the Minister.

It is important that the Government are seen to support a fair and workable distribution of conditions for suppliers participating in environmental and social schemes. In looking at the options, did the department consider a more tapered introduction, say with a small 50,000-strong block of customers rather than the cliff edge of 250,000? If it was considered, why was that approach not adopted? If it was not, might it be as the Government look at future schemes in the area?

My second question is: what estimates are there of the number of new suppliers that will enter the market as a result of this change in regulation? There is no guarantee that smaller suppliers will mean a reduction in the price of a householder’s bills, but we all know that we need to try to cut energy bills and end the dominance of the larger six.

In that regard—supplementary to it—I say that the Minister might find it hard to answer that question because, even if we change this regulation, that will not be the only barrier that prevents people coming into the market. Many of the other barriers, such as liquidity, are outside the Government’s control. Might the Minister take this opportunity to comment on what negotiations or discussions he has had with Ofgem about some of those other barriers to entry into the market, and about whether it intends to act on them in the near future?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marland, for his introduction. This change is relatively moderate, minor and technical but it is generally welcomed. The issues that I want to raise are similar to those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. Although I welcome the change, I am not sure how much impact it will have, and I have given some indication to the noble Lord of the questions with which I shall probe him for explanation.

Raising the threshold of CERT and CESP from 50,000 to 250,000 customers will benefit smaller suppliers that have reached, are about to reach or are just over the threshold and would struggle to meet the obligations imposed on them, but how many energy suppliers will that affect? I assume that the department has made some assessment or estimate of how many energy suppliers have reached that level and will benefit from not having to fulfil the obligation under CERT or CESP at this time. Any information that the Minister has on the scale of the impact and an indication of the number of companies or customers would be welcome.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, also raised the issue of the impact there could be on bills. Has any assessment been made of the smaller companies, having been relieved of the obligations, passing on the savings that they make to customers? If smaller companies no longer have those obligations, presumably that will assist them with their profit margin. Is it expected that the customer will receive some benefit? My understanding is that, in effect, the larger companies pick up the tab of the obligations not being undertaken in future by smaller companies. Is there any expectation of additional cost being passed on to the customer from the larger companies?

It may be more to do with my lack of computer skills than the DECC website, but I could not find the consultation there. The Minister rightly laughs at me, but I challenge him to find it. I was interested to see whether any responses to the consultation had not been satisfied by the order. The issue that has been raised already is tapering, but I am not sure about it because I could not access the consultation. Did the Government consider tapering the threshold for obligations? Even under the new proposed higher level, which we welcome, there is still an issue about there being an absolute limit at which substantial obligations come into force. Were there representations and responses from the smaller suppliers about a more gradual and graduated approach? If so, were they considered by the Government and what was their reason for rejecting any such taper?

The impact assessment commented on the costs. Is there any impact on carbon or is this measure carbon- neutral? Paragraph 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which is headed: “Matters of Special Interest to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments”, made the point that there was a delay in the Government announcing their intention to pursue this order change —that was announced in June—because they were considering wider possible changes to the CERT scheme. They are ongoing and are being pursued at the same time as the amendments presented here because they are under strict time constraints. If the Minister could expand on that and say anything about the changes that the Government are looking to introduce, that would be helpful.

Finally, I welcome the Minister’s comments about how essential it is to have market reform if we are to do anything to benefit consumers and assist them with energy prices. As he said, this is just one step. It is a small step but it is welcome. If he can reassure me as regards the points that I have raised, I would be grateful.

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, I am very grateful for what appears to be a very harmonious coalition of views from all parties, as always. I thank the two noble Baronesses for their comments, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, who I gather has been suffering from a bad cold. However, she made it here today to keep baiting me, as she normally does. I hope that she is feeling well and recovers in time for Christmas.

Before I respond to the points that have been made, I wish to give noble Lords an overall feel of things. CERT and CESP end next year. We do not want to do anything too radical because we all know that we have the ECO coming next year, so we did not think that it was necessary to bring in a tapering scheme for example, but we are consulting on it for the ECO. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, knew the answer to that question before she asked it, as, I believe, did the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. We are consulting on that. As I say, there is only a year left. The whole idea of this is to increase competition and not radically to change what is fundamentally a good policy. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, getting value for the consumer is at the forefront of all our parties’ minds.

Ofgem is about to publish its views on how we can get liquidity into the market. We welcome the fact that it is looking at that. Currently, seven suppliers in the market will benefit from this change. By increasing competition through increasing the threshold we want to encourage other suppliers into the market. I cannot tell noble Lords offhand how many will join this merry thing but others will be looking at it very closely. Seven suppliers is actually the same amount again as there are in the big six, so that is positive competition. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, loves asking about our website because she knows that I have never seen it in my life. I am sure that it is very good. We consulted in December 2010 and announced our interim views in June 2011 and now we are bringing the measure into law. The noble Baroness wishes to intervene. She is going to ask me about the website again.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I just wanted the Minister to clarify whether the consultation responses were on the website. Perhaps my efforts to find them on the website were completely hopeless.

[Lord Marland]

We know that the noble Baroness is not completely hopeless. I look to my officials for information. I am told that there was a summary of responses on the website. As noble Lords know, I am not an expert on that, but it is history now, is it not?

Charities Bill [HL]

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I will not detain the House for long, but I am very happy to confirm what my noble friend has said from the Front Bench. The terms of reference that I have been given are widely drawn. While obviously a lot of our time will be spent on the big issues that affect the sector, we shall want to make sure we do as much tidying up as we can of some of the more specific and technical points, of which this is one.

Already some of the professional bodies such as the Charity Law Association are in touch about some of the things they would like cleared up. I am sure there will be no shortage of views and things for us to do. I very much hope that we get a lot of input, not just from the usual suspects in the sector, but also views from the general public because it is important they should have some say in how their charity sector is structured in the future. Certainly we will make sure—I would be much too frightened not to—that my noble friend’s point is addressed some time between now and next July.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this may be one of the shorter Reports in your Lordships’ House. I am grateful to the Minister for the considerable effort I know she has taken to accommodate concerns that were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I note he says that charity law should be as simple, direct and as plain as possible. The “as possible” part is the catch-all phrase there because charity law is never simple, direct or plain. Therefore, when welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, to his post in the review of legislation, I do not envy him the position at all. He has been set quite a challenge.

It shows this House at its best that concerns were raised—when we spoke in Committee, I said to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, that I had to go back to read what had been said at Second Reading to get the gist, because the issue was so technical—and I hope the Minister and her officials have managed to accommodate them. As I say, it is the House at its best when an issue is raised and Ministers take it away and come back with a solution, which satisfies all. I am also happy to accept the Minister’s amendment.

Amendment agreed.

Police: Station Closures

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend makes a very good point indeed and I will certainly take it on board. It is quite right that we should make use of the expertise that we have to make sure that policemen who are still available for front-line duties can do them and are not wasted behind the doors of the police station doing bureaucratic jobs.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, perhaps I can help the Minister, who said that he does not know how many police stations have closed. In my county of Essex, seven police stations have closed, but, worse than that, we now have no more 24-hour police stations, and most police stations are open only between noon and 6 pm. Given that the Chief Inspector of Constabulary said that a 12 per cent cut in police budgets was the most that could be saved, how can the Government justify a 20 per cent cut in Essex? What impact will this have, and why did they not listen to the chief inspector?

Police: Funding

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Indeed, it is very encouraging to see the way in which forces are using technology, and combining across force borders, by mutual agreement, to share in it to improve the way they serve the public.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister about her comments on protecting front-line services. Indeed, the Prime Minister himself said that front-line services would be protected. Will she then explain to me how that equates to the response in the county of Essex, where 24-hour police stations will no longer exist as a result of these cuts, and where half the police stations are going to be closed? Is that protecting front-line services?

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, these individual matters in individual forces are for individual decisions taken by the individual chief officers for good reasons when they are looking at priorities. However, buildings, numbers and statistics mean nothing compared to the way in which the leadership in police forces ensure that the police are deployed. We are very determined that police officers will police on the front line, in the streets, and not in offices.

Charities Bill [HL]

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this may be one of those rare occasions when I am pleased not to be the Minister answering the noble Lord’s questions. As the Minister knows, we welcome this consolidation. The comments that have been made highlight what the legislation seeks to achieve. The noble Lord raised similar issues at Second Reading. I have to confess that he lost me somewhat when he spoke in that debate. However, I have carefully read the points that he made. It strikes me that we are attempting to make the legislation more straightforward, less complex and easier but we are not making it easy. I noted that the noble Lord mentioned making the measure more understandable to the lay person. I am not sure that we are ever able to make such legislation more understandable to the lay person. This is very much a lawyer’s issue. My noble friend Lord Boateng has queried whether people need a lawyer to help them set up a charity. If the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will forgive my saying so, I fear that we have two lawyers and three opinions on this issue as it seems to comprise an argument between lawyers.

I confess that I do not understand the legal complexities which would allow me to make a distinction between “charitable purpose” or “charitable purposes”. I cannot see the difference between those two phrases. However, I fully understand the necessity to get definitions right so as to avoid long drawn out arguments in court. I have carefully read the report of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. We should be grateful to it for considering the points that we put to it. It has also considered the point that the noble Lord has made. All I can do is to seek advice on this from the Minister. I am sure that she has received legal advice on whether this is a justifiable concern. Is she able to share that legal advice with us? If there is an issue around the definition, how significant will that be in terms of interpretation? Her advice would be helpful in enabling the Committee to reach a conclusion on this matter and in reassuring us that the Bill does what it seeks to do and that the definition is satisfactory.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this important but short debate. I welcome the opportunity to try to explain the Government’s position as clearly as I can.

I welcome the knowledge and expertise of my noble friend Lord Phillips in charity law and his assiduousness in scrutinising legislation that affects charities. I know that he has taken a very close interest in the consolidation Bill. Earlier this year he raised a number of points with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, the chairman of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. He has also since then discussed various points with the Bill team in considerable detail. As a result, we have been able to make some important drafting improvements at the Joint Committee stage and we are extremely grateful to my noble friend for that.

The amendments tabled by my noble friend concern the relationship between Clauses 2 and 11. I know that my noble friend's object here is to make further drafting improvements. However, the discussions we have engaged in with him have indicated that his concerns go deeper than that. As a result, we have already undertaken to address the underlying problem that he has raised. This can be done only outside the consolidation process. I shall explain that in a little more detail in a moment but perhaps I may just set the context for this discussion. Clauses 2 and 11 reproduce the existing law as it has stood since the passing of the Charities Act 2006. We are not aware of anyone having expressed concerns about these provisions at the time of the passing of the 2006 Act. Furthermore, at no point in the consultation process on the present Bill has anyone expressed any concerns about the relationship between Clauses 2 and 11. The draft Bill was the subject of full public consultation in 2009 and has the support of the charities sector and the Charity Commission.

I should explain that Clauses 2 and 11 contain two subtly different definitions of “charitable purpose”, one of a very general application and the other of a much more limited application. Two types of suggestion have been made about the relationship between these clauses. The first involves changing the law; the second aims simply to improve the drafting of the Bill. The suggestion between Second Reading and the Joint Committee proceedings was of the first type. It was suggested that instead of the two subtly different meanings of “charitable purpose” applying in different contexts, there should be one definition of “charitable purpose” applying across the board. Unfortunately, substituting a single definition of “charitable purpose” cannot be achieved without changing the law. It is not permissible within the constraints of the consolidation process for the Bill to change the law. So no amendments were tabled at Joint Committee to Clauses 2 or 11, and the Joint Committee agreed to the clauses as drafted.

The amendments that my noble friend has now tabled aim to improve the drafting of the Bill without changing the law. However, we are not convinced that this is the right response to the real issue that my noble friend has raised. The fundamental issue—it is one that we recognise—is that it is awkward to have two definitions of “charitable purpose” applying in different contexts. The amendments that the noble Lord has tabled do not remove this awkwardness; they merely present it differently. We think that the right thing to do is not to make drafting changes to the Bill, but instead to seek to address the underlying issue.

We recognise that it could be a desirable simplification to substitute the two definitions applying in different contexts by a single definition applying across the board. However, it is clear that this cannot be done through this Bill. I have therefore already suggested to my noble friend that it can be considered as part of the forthcoming review of the Charities Act 2006. It appears that there is a case for simplification here, and we believe that the review is the right place to explore thoroughly the legal changes that would be required to achieve this simplification.

I return to the amendments before us. The drafting of the consolidation Bill is a very technical business and the provisions have already been very clearly considered and given a clean bill of health by the Joint Committee. However, my noble friend has tabled what amount to detailed drafting points so I will explain why we resist these amendments.

I will begin by saying that we think that the way in which the definitions of “charity” and “charitable purpose” are structured in the Bill is an improvement on the current legislation. In particular, putting the 1993 Act definitions in Part 1 of the Bill next to the 2006 Act definitions makes them more visible to the reader. In the Government's view, my noble friend’s amendments would not improve this drafting. First, we think that the amendments would damage the logical structure of Part 1 of the Bill by taking a definition that belongs in Chapter 2 and putting it into Chapter 1 where it does not belong. I will explain that in a little more detail. As is clear from its title, Part 1 of the Bill is concerned with the definitions of “charity” and “charitable purpose”. Chapter 1 of Part 1 deals with definitions that apply generally—that is, in legislation generally and in documents, and in England and Wales as well as, for certain purposes, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Chapter 2 of Part 1 deals with definitions that have a much more limited application—that is, they apply only in England and Wales, and only to provisions deriving from the Charities Act 1993. The different scope of the two chapters is signalled by the chapter titles. Chapter 1 is headed “General” and Chapter 2 is headed “Special provision for this Act”. It is not a drafting improvement to interfere with this structure.

Furthermore, we think it is undesirable to confuse the picture for readers in Scotland and Northern Ireland by injecting into Chapter 1 a definition that concerns the interpretation of provisions that relate only to England and Wales. Chapter 1 affects the law of Scotland and Northern Ireland for certain purposes relating loosely to fiscal matters.

Finally, in our view the amendments would be inconsistent in that they would leave two alternative definitions of “charity” in Chapters 1 and 2. If the two alternative definitions of “charitable purpose” are brought together in the way suggested, it would seem illogical to leave the two definitions of “charity” in separate places.

I am keen that progress on this Bill is not unduly delayed. I therefore ask the noble Lord to accept the assurances that I have offered him. Of course, he will have a further opportunity to debate this matter when the 2006 Act comes under review later in the year. I am sure that my noble friend’s expertise would be very welcome at any further deliberations on the matters of concern that he has raised in his amendments. We are willing to ensure that the underlying issue to which he has helpfully drawn attention is addressed in its proper forum. On that basis, I invite him to withdraw his drafting amendment.

Metropolitan Police Service

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning]

I am very happy to support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Condon. Indeed, in her Statement in the other place, the Home Secretary made a point of concluding her remarks on that basis. We are all conscious of the impact that this will have on morale, not just in the Met but rippling out more widely. There are in this House in particular former senior police officers who have served their country with great distinction. I pay tribute to all of them and to the many people of all ranks who voluntarily police their own communities by consent. It is a great strength of British policing that it is by consent. I endorse entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Condon, said. I hope that leadership will be shown in police forces around the country to minimise the damage to morale from what has happened in the capital.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, when it became clear that there was no widespread public or professional support for the health Bill, the Prime Minister wisely stepped back and paused the Bill for consideration. What I find incredible in the noble Baroness's answers is that she does not seem to think that the events of the past couple of weeks have had any impact on, or should be considered in any way in connection with, the police Bill. Will she take this away and think about it? People across the country who support the Metropolitan Police will find it incredible if these events do not impact on deliberations on the Bill. The best thing now would be for the Bill to be paused for consideration, and for the Government then to come back with more effective and thought-out proposals.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Baroness says, but I am well aware, as she is, that right from the start her party has opposed police and crime commissioners. Despite what has happened over the past two weeks, there are those who have now focused on the fact that police and crime commissioners will be there to represent the public, having been elected by them, and to hold chief constables to account. While I hear what she says, many take a view exactly opposite to hers.