Children’s Privacy

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effects on children of the publication of photographs of them without agreement or permission; and what consideration they have given to the aims of Protect: the Campaign for Children’s Privacy.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the importance of ensuring that children’s privacy is respected and that safeguards are in place to protect it. The Government have introduced the new system of independent press self-regulation and there are remedies available under civil law. The Government are committed to tackling the production and distribution of indecent images of children and criminal offences are available in such cases.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we have to be clear about what Protect: the Campaign for Children’s Privacy is asking the Government to consider. Surely it is entirely reasonable and responsible that when identifying an individual child in a published photograph, there should either be consent or good reason. If not, the image should be pixilated or blurred. The Minister referred to self-regulation. If that is working, why did Hannah Weller have to go to court and why did the judge say that the law needs clarification? Will the Minister agree to meet Protect in order to understand parents’ concerns and consider how children’s privacy can be protected?

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I should say first that my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister has met campaigners and I would be very happy to facilitate further meetings if that would be helpful. In respect of the particular case to which she referred, this is an ongoing legal matter and I am sure that she will understand if I do not comment on the specifics. But when it comes to the matter at hand, which is that of self-regulation, it is important to note that the Editors’ Code of Practice actually stipulates that where a child is under the age of 16, consent should be sought. That is something which should happen under the code and under self-regulation. Where that does not happen, there is then redress through the civil courts.

Police: Funding

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s great expertise in this area. The current Commissioner of the Met, while warning about cuts, also said that cuts without reform would not work. I think that everyone is signed up to the fact that there needs to be reform. What that reform should be is where the debate lies. Our argument is that perhaps there is greater room for the reform of policing—for example, doing away with targets and making just one target of cutting crime, and being better co-ordinated in terms of procurement between forces. Those are arguments that can be had. I also recognise the importance of local policing, which the noble Lord referred to as well.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is aware that cuts upon cuts to police budgets mean that more functions are now being carried out by the private security industry—even custody suites in police stations. The role of private security is increasing dramatically and it is interacting with the public daily, so why have the Government failed to regulate private security firms? The consultation on this issue had one of the largest responses ever and it was almost unanimous in its support for regulation. The industry itself—that is, the organisations representing those businesses—is calling for regulation urgently, so why will the Government not act in the interests of the public and of the industry?

[Lord Bates]

Of course the private security industry is the subject of regulation, and I will come to that. The reality is that in the past, in 2010, there were 5,000 police officers who were dealing with back-office and administrative functions. We said that, given the need to reduce overall budgets, the essential thing was to protect front-line policing, and therefore that we needed to move those people out of administrative tasks and on to the front line to actually fight against crime. That is what they have done, heroically, and that has led to a reduction in overall crime.

EU: Justice Opt-outs

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

Obviously, we take the noble Lord’s criticisms extremely seriously, given his position. I know that he does not raise these issues lightly. We also take seriously our obligations, set out in the appendix to the Companion, on scrutiny reserve powers. I urge him to accept that exceptional factors were at play in this instance, relating to the objections that were lodged by the Spanish, the Poles and the Austrians in July, which we did not anticipate. This then coincided with the recess period. The Spanish objections were listed only on 7 November and we needed to avoid an operational gap. That was why, in these exceptional circumstances, the Home Secretary had to take the decision to override scrutiny—which she did not do lightly. She did so to avoid people being at risk through the European arrest warrant not being in place. We have met the chairs and the work will be ongoing to ensure that this does not happen again.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

But, my Lords, very early on in our debates about opt in and opt out, I asked the Minister which other countries the Government had discussed this with. I was told from the Dispatch Box that there was no need to discuss this with any other country; it was a matter for the UK Government. On the matter of substance, how many of the measures that the UK has now permanently opted out of in policing and criminal justice were relevant to the UK, were actually being used and had any value to the UK?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness says that we were not engaging in discussions, but these discussions through the working groups were absolutely ongoing all the time. That was the reason why we secured the improvements which we got through to the European arrest warrant in terms of proportionality, dual criminality and avoiding lengthy pre-trial detentions. In terms of every single one of the 135 measures, again, we set out very clearly in Command Paper 8671, which was laid before your Lordships’ House in July 2013, our view as to what the application was and whether it was necessary. From that, we took the view that 35 were necessary; that was why the Prime Minister wrote in July last year.

Calais: Illegal Immigrants

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

All vehicles have to go through that level of vetting, which is carried out by the Border Force using the latest technology for sensing whether there are people in the vehicle. That is a strong safeguard.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is talking about lorries but is he aware that desperate migrants will get access to any vehicle in order to seek a better life? Many people travelling to France in their cars for the weekend to do some shopping are being advised in Calais not to leave their cars empty, even to go into a shop or to have lunch. What advice has the Minister given to domestic travellers to Calais, and does he think that we have enough border staff, given the cuts imposed by the Government?

[Lord Bates]

The Border Force has been reformed. We now have a stronger border agency and the toughest border regime in the world. We have 200 million people crossing into the country. The reality is that domestic tourists and other travellers there should be aware that this is a major problem and that it is only going to get worse. They have to use the same level of security to protect their vehicles.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid in Parliament on 7 November. It is part of continuing efforts to tackle the trade in so-called “legal highs”—a term which is unhelpful. On 30 October the Government published their response to the expert-led review into new psychoactive substances. They have set out an enhanced package of measures that includes looking at the feasibility of new legislation in this challenging area.

The Misuse of Drugs Act will remain the cornerstone of the Government’s legislative actions to curtail the availability of these new drugs where there is expert advice on their harms. The order being debated today is one part of the Government’s actions, which they continue to pursue with full vigour.

I would like to thank the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs for its continued support in reviewing the evidence base on new psychoactive substances sold as legal highs that have the potential to cause harm. The ACMD’s considerations and advice continue to inform the Government’s response to these drugs. Noble Lords will wish to note that the legislative measures the Government are proposing through this order are entirely in line with the ACMD’s advice.

If made, this order will specify for control the synthetic opioid AH-7921 and a number of LSD-related compounds, commonly referred to as ALD-52, AL-LAD, ETH-LAD, PRO-LAD and LSZ. The order will also extend the definition used to control the family of tryptamines to capture compounds such as alpha-methyltryptamine as well as 5-MeO-DALT for control under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.

The Government have received advice from the ACMD that the drugs to be controlled are being misused or likely to be misused. In the ACMD’s view, their misuse is having, or is capable of having, sufficiently harmful effects to warrant legislative action under the 1971 Act. Legislative action is necessary as a result of the real and potential harms identified by the ACMD. This action will send out a strong message to those who are considering experimenting with these drugs and help the Government to target their public health messaging in order to protect the public. It will also allow enforcement partners to prioritise resources accordingly to tackle the sale and supply of these drugs, sending out a strong message to those who trade in these harmful drugs, including high street “head shops”.

The Committee will be aware that this Government and the ACMD continue to monitor, through UK and EU drugs early warning systems, emerging substances marketed as legal alternatives to controlled drugs. This work has informed the ACMD’s deliberations and, as appropriate, its current advice to update our drug laws in relation to the new psychoactive compounds being controlled.

AH-7921 is a potent synthetic analgesic developed over 40 years ago by Allen & Hanburys pharmaceutical company in the UK. The ACMD reports that,

“the compound was not developed further, presumably because animal studies revealed a high addictive potential”.

AH-7921 has recently become available as a new psychoactive substance. It was first detected in Europe in July 2012. Since then a number of drug-related deaths have been reported in Europe, including three related deaths reported by the National Programme on Substance Abuse Deaths in the UK in 2013. AH-7921 is reported as being highly addictive, with a potency similar to morphine. Harms from the misuse of this drug are reported to include difficulty in breathing, severe pain and death.

The LSD-related compounds are potent hallucinogens which currently evade UK controls on this family of drugs. These compounds are reported as being offered for sale on specialist websites devoted to hallucinogens as new psychoactive substances. The harms associated with the misuse of these compounds are reported to include euphoria, hallucinations, rapid heartbeat and depression. These compounds are also known to cause acute mental health disturbances.

The tryptamines are hallucinogens, a large number of which are already controlled via a generic or group definition under the 1971 Act as class A drugs. The ACMD reports that in recent years there has been a significant interest in hallucinogens of this type. A number of these substances, which fall outside the current group definition, are being offered for sale as new psychoactive substances. Two in particular, commonly referred to as AMT and 5-MeO-DALT, have been encountered through the Home Office forensic early warning system. AMT was linked to the tragic deaths of Adam Hunt and Christopher Scott last year.

The physical effects of the tryptamines are reported as visual illusion, hallucination and euphoria, among others. The ACMD also reports a small number of confirmed post-mortem toxicology reports, rising from one in 2009 to four in 2013, with AMT being the most frequently linked to reported tryptamine deaths. For all these reasons, the Government accept the ACMD’s advice to extend current controls to these compounds as class A drugs under the 1971 Act.

The Government intend to make two further, related statutory instruments, which will be subject to the negative resolution procedure. The Misuse of Drugs (Designation) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2014 will amend the Misuse of Drugs (Designation) Order 2001 to place the compounds being controlled in Part 1 of the order as compounds to which Section 7(4) of the 1971 Act applies. These compounds have no known legitimate uses outside research. Their availability for use in research will be enabled under a Home Office licence.

The Misuse of Drugs (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2014 will amend the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 to place the compounds being controlled by this order in Schedule 1 to the 2001 regulations, as they have no known or recognised medicinal uses. These instruments will be laid in time to come into force at the same time as the Order in Council, if it comes into force as proposed. The Government will publicise the approved law changes through a Home Office circular. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the detail on this. The explanation she gave was very helpful. I also congratulate her on her pronunciation—these are not easy words; they have foiled many a Minister. However, the complications are more than just verbal when we look at the detail of the complexities of the compounds that we are seeking to prohibit. This order was actually laid in July and had to be withdrawn because of a mistake. That indicates how complex these issues are and how important it is that we get it right.

Too often, these drugs are referred to in a phrase that I do not like: “legal highs”. Sometimes the only reason that they are legal is because of the technicality that no one has got round to banning that particular compound yet, even though it has a very similar effect to another. That might be the initial reaction to these highs, but in too many cases they lead to death or very serious illness or psychosis, so it is right that action is taken against them. One thing that gives cause for concern is the growing number of artificial drugs—created or synthetic compounds—on the market. The Government’s approach now, of looking at groups of compounds rather than trying to ban an individual one so that when there is a slight change in the make-up another one has to be banned, is a much more sensible approach and one that we welcome.

I will just ask something briefly about process. There are two questions here. The Government sought advice from the ACMD on this order and it fully supports it. It is always helpful where there is consensus in these matters. Is there a process by which the ACMD can draw the attention of the Government to drugs being used on which it thinks action should be taken? Is there a two-way process?

The Minister referred to other orders coming before us. I think that this is the fifth order on the Misuse of Drugs Act that I have spoken to, so a number of substances have been banned already. We need to ensure that the action that we are taking is effective. There is no point in us sitting here, with the Minister having to learn the names of the drugs and read them through, with the immense work that goes into preparing such orders and the advice from the ACMD, if at the end of the day it is not going to have much effect. How many prosecutions have there been in line with all that has been done already in respect of substances and compounds that have been banned, and how many seizures of drugs banned in previous orders have we seen? Has any assessment been made or evidence emerged of a decline in their use? I am happy not to receive answers today, but I am looking for reassurance that when we take such action it does have an impact and makes a difference. With those points and questions, we give our support to the Motion.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for taking part in this quite brief discussion of a matter which—I think there is general consensus—needs to be tackled. Obviously, approval of the order will ensure that our drug laws remain effective and assist law enforcement to restrict the availability of compounds that have no legitimate use outside research.

The noble Baroness mentioned how unhelpful the term “legal high” is—because, as she said, the only reason that a substance is a legal high is that it has not yet become an illegal high. She also referred to how complex the whole thing is, because we are almost running to stand still, given the number of new compounds and substances being developed.

The noble Baroness asked whether the ACMD can take a proactive as opposed to a reactive approach if it gets intelligence on new drugs that are being developed. Given that it is a two-way dialogue, I assume that the answer is yes, but if it is any different from that, I will let her know. The expert panel made an assessment of our approach and concluded that we should build on it, but I am happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.

On the increase or the decline in use, the use of new psychoactive substances among the general population remains relatively low overall compared to that of some of the traditional illicit drugs, with 0.6% of adults—that is, 16 to 59 year-olds—reporting use of mephedrone in the last year compared to 6.6% for cannabis, 2.4% for powder cocaine and 1.6% for ecstasy.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That does not address the point that I am making; it tells us about the average use. What I am trying to do is understand the impact of orders such as these. I understand what the use is in the UK; I want to know whether the orders are having any effect. I am happy for the Minister not to answer today but to write to me, because I think that is a more complex question.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will clarify that in a letter.

I think that I have answered the two main questions. I am happy to write with detail on the other questions that were asked. In light of that, I commend the order.

Children and the Police

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I will, and I pay tribute to the work that my noble friend does as chairman of the Youth Justice Board. It is an important partner in making sure that we move forward on this. I was not aware that there is a particular issue relating to statistics; this report very much feeds into the wider work that the Home Secretary is doing in reforming the way our police work, particularly in regard to their sensitivity toward children, who are more often the victims of crime by other children than the perpetrators.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords will understand how important it is that young people and children have respect for the police. As my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey said, young people are less frequently coming into contact with the police as we see cuts, fewer police officers at schools and fewer PCSOs. They do not come into contact with the police so much because police officers are not known in their local communities. It is also equally important that police have respect for young people. On the back of the report of the all-party group, what advice will be given to the College of Policing to ensure that respect for young people is an important training aspect there?

[Lord Bates]

The College of Policing has a very important role to play here, because it can change the codes—which it is doing—on issues such as stop and search, and it can change the culture within the police, particularly in relation to underreported crimes such as rape and domestic violence. I therefore think that this is very much going with the grain of what the College of Policing, which was set up by this Government, is doing to enhance and improve standards in service throughout the police.

EU: Migration

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right, and that is one reason why we have said that it is a condition of immigration that the English language must be an important part of that.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will have heard the disappointment and concern on his side of the House that the Government do not seem to be building workable relations with other countries in the European Union. That makes any change much more difficult. Could the Minister tell me specifically which member states have backed the Prime Minister’s proposals to restrict free movement within Europe?

[Lord Bates]

We are not talking about restricting the free movement of labour—we are talking about restricting the free movement of benefits. I have already listed a number of countries, and Germany is a prime one, which have particular concerns on this that are shared. That includes some of the Nordic countries as well. Some of those countries also had transitional arrangements put in place when we enlarged with the A10 countries in 2004, which the previous Government did not put in place. That led to the major problem that we are now living under.

Mediterranean: Refugees and Migrants

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an extremely serious issue. The whole House should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, for raising it today and for first raising it in a Written Question. I agree with the noble Lord that this issue should be tackled at source in the countries affected and that they should look to tackle people trafficking and the reasons why people want to leave their homes. However, last week, I asked the noble Lord—the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised this as well—whether the Government really believe that this needless loss of life, with people drowning in the Mediterranean, will ever act as a deterrent to the criminals trafficking people or to those desperate enough to get into small boats and leave. He failed to answer the question then. Will he answer me now?

[Lord Bates]

I have tried to answer it. These are very early figures but there is some evidence from Frontex, in a briefing that we received in the past 48 hours, that the trend is turning. We should remember that the relevant figure went up from 70,000 per year to 150,000 and that the number of deaths went up from 700 to 3,000. We think that there are between 300,000 and 600,000 people in Libya waiting to make a crossing. The indications are that the numbers fell in October. There could be other reasons for that and we are following the situation closely. This is something we take very seriously indeed and are trying to abate.

Wanless Review

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating that Statement but I am sorry that the Government did not choose to make a Statement to Parliament today. We had to request one in the other place through an Urgent Question.

These are very serious matters. We do not know how many children and young people’s lives have been damaged through sexual abuse—damage that was then compounded either because their accounts were not believed or, worse, because of a failure to investigate followed by a cover up. That makes openness, honesty and transparency all the more essential. I hope that the noble Lord will take this message back to the Home Secretary and that he can assure us that, as this matter progresses, any Statements will be made orally to your Lordships’ House to give noble Lords the opportunity to question and to clarify points on which they may seek assistance.

It was appropriate that the Home Secretary added her thanks to Peter Wanless and Richard Whittam QC. Clearly, they answered their responsibilities with great care and dililgence. I note their comments about not having been involved in the drawing up of their terms of reference and about public confusion around the inquiries. We need to make the distinction that the reviews we are talking about are reviews of evidence previously examined and not a full inquiry, although they did seek further information and were clear that they were not hampered in doing so.

Has the Home Secretary had further discussions with Mr Whittam QC and with Mr Wanless about whether there were areas outside their terms of reference that they now feel should be examined further? I am curious about paragraph 5 of the Statement that the noble Lord repeated. Although it is welcome, I seek some clarification. The Home Secretary said that she has written to Peter Wanless and Richard Whittam,

“to seek further reassurance that the police and prosecutors acted appropriately upon receiving information relating to the Dickens dossier or related matters from the Home Office”.

She has also asked for some reassurances from the security services.

I have had only a brief opportunity to read through some of the first report because it has not been available for long. It states how hard it is to establish the truth because acquiring evidence as to whether information has been destroyed or whether it was filed in the first place is extremely difficult. Is the noble Lord able to tell us whether the Government consider that other sources of information should now be made available to Mr Wanless and Mr Whittam, and have they asked for greater access? I would be interested to know how they can offer further reassurances because they seem to have been thorough with the information which has been made available to them. Is more information being made available or will there be greater access? I am just asking how they can offer a further assurance.

The Government’s inquiry, when it starts properly with a new chair, is to be overarching and wide-ranging. These reviews into the previous reviews seem to highlight a slightly different issue. What is needed are investigations into, first, the cover-ups, and secondly, the destruction of evidence. Is the noble Lord satisfied that these issues will be fully addressed?

Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Covert Surveillance and Property Interference: Code of Practice) Order 2014

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 10th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. He will be aware that there have been a number of debates on this issue over the past few years in your Lordships’ House. It is helpful to have the two codes of practice before us; it was also helpful that he set it all in context. However, as he will know, following the debate on what became fast-tracked legislation in the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, or DRIP, it was agreed through our amendment in the other place, which the Government accepted, that there will be a full review of RIPA. As I think the Minister said, it has not kept pace with technology and there have been changes. Clearly, there needs to be a full review to ensure that it keeps pace with not just the technology but some of the problems that have arisen, which he also alluded to.

The Minister will also be aware, although he did not mention it in his comments, of the issue raised in debate on the Serious Crime Bill, when the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, tabled an amendment about concerns regarding journalists and their sources being intercepted and accessed. We have had previous debates about his point about undercover police officers on covert operations having inappropriate relationships with people, particularly between male police officers and women. Regarding surveillance techniques, I think particularly of my noble friend Lady Lawrence, whose family was subject to surveillance that under no circumstances could ever be described as necessary or proportionate. There is clearly a need for guidelines to address that and, if guidelines are not adhered to or something goes wrong, a process by which those issues can be taken up. We certainly welcome seeing the new codes of practice, but I also hope that the Minister will confirm that all these issues will still be discussed and further considered when we have that full review of RIPA by David Anderson, the commissioner.

We have made it clear that there has to be a full public debate on this and I hope that the noble Lord will agree. We do the public a disservice if we stand back and say, “We need these powers”—and the Government do need such powers—“but trust us, everything will be okay”. We would bring the public into our confidence a lot more on these issues if we explained why we need such powers and how they will be used. The public would understand that but we have to do a lot more than just ask for their trust. There is recognition, and I am sure that the public recognise this as well, that covert surveillance or operations have to be undertaken. To suggest that in each and every case they are wrong would be completely to misunderstand their purpose, as I think the noble Lord made clear. Those operations are dealing with some of the most dangerous crime and serious criminals and are an essential part of policing. We are talking about drugs, trafficking, smuggling, sexual abuse and pornography. Often, as I am sure we will come to debate on the Government’s opt-out and opt-in proposals, that information is shared between countries and is an important part of putting together the jigsaw of the details of some of these international crimes, where there is cross-border communication that we can get only if we co-operate with other countries.

I was surprised that in the order there was nothing, unless I have missed it within the two codes of practice, distinguishing between long-term and short-term operations. I would make that a clear definition and perhaps do so on authorisations as well. Regarding some of the things that we expect police officers to do, my local paper ran a story about one officer who had infiltrated a drugs gang. As he got more and more information—he got excellent information that went to court—it was obviously putting him at risk. He ended up having to jump out of the window and run pretty quickly down the street to ensure that he was not caught while still acting under cover.

The two issues that we have raised before, which are largely recognised in these provisions, are the inappropriate use of powers, in regard to which I mentioned my noble friend Lady Lawrence, and inappropriate relations. If the Minister has not read it, I suggest that he reads a book that was written about in the Guardian magazine on 22 June last year. I kept a copy of its excellent article about the problems caused by that kind of covert surveillance when it got out of hand and the powers were abused.

We have two new draft codes of practice. What they and any review needs to address is, first, the safeguards to protect the public while addressing the balance and conflicts and, secondly, establishing and maintaining public confidence in the integrity of the process and system. That is difficult, because you are balancing liberty against security, and privacy against public safety. Those issues clash, which is why the guide is so important. I hope that the Minister will give me an assurance that the draft codes of practice will still be part of RIPA.

The Minister mentioned the consultation. I was a little surprised that he and Mike Penning in the other place gave different numbers; they were only one out, but the noble Lord said that there were 127 consultations, while the Minister in the other place said that there were 126. I went to the website to see what those consultations had said, because I thought it would be helpful to inform this debate if we could see the consultations—the Explanatory Notes say that most of the points were taken on board. However, I went to the website on Friday to be told:

“We are analysing your feedback. Visit this page again soon to download the outcome to this public feedback”.

However, the Minister said today that as a result of the question David Winnick asked of the Minister in the other place, Mike Penning, about whether it would be made public, he was told, “No problem; it can be”. Did the Government never intend to publish the consultation? They now have to go back to everybody who contributed to the consultation, which implies that there was no intention to publish it in the first place. From a personal point of view, I always find the publication of consultation responses extremely helpful in these kinds of debates. I am very disappointed that they have not been published. To suggest that the Government now have to spend money to go back to everybody to ask them if they mind their information being published does not seem to be the best use of resources or time.

I will ask the Minister a couple of questions on the code of practice, because I was not 100% clear about a couple of things. In the Covert Human Intelligence Sources Draft Code of Practice, a piece on page 9 refers to public officials who provide information to the authorities, and there is new guidance on that. Is all that guidance new, or has it been adapted from something that already existed? If a person is providing information—and not always information about an offence; often it is what you might call personal information; and whether or not they become a covert human intelligence source or just a source in the normal course of things—does it make it more likely that they will be reluctant to provide information because they know that they are registered somewhere, someplace, as a covert human intelligence source? I do not know whether you call that a CHIS. Does that make it more difficult for the authorities to obtain information in that way?

On page 19, paragraph 4.20, confidential constituent information is referred to as being confidential information,

“in relation to communications between a Member of Parliament and a constituent in respect of constituency matters”,

because that is held in confidence. Does that also apply to Members of the House of Lords? Although we do not have constituents as such, members of the public contact us about issues. Indeed, the Houses of Parliament website suggests that if you are not happy with the response from your MP, you can contact a Member of the House of Lords. Would we be bound by the same confidentiality as Members of the House of Commons and by the same provisions? That is not clear in that passage, as it specifically refers to Members of Parliament with constituencies.

I would also like a clarification about the authorisation criteria on page 22. The final one in the list says,

“for any other purpose prescribed in an order made by the Secretary of State”,

with the proviso that it has to enshrine the right to family life. Does that mean any order on any issue? It seems to be a very broad power; it would be helpful if the Minister could say something about that.

Finally, on the Covert Surveillance and Property Interference Draft Code of Practice, I have a query about how the role of the surveillance commissioners works. I do not know how many authorisations there are annually, but it would be very difficult for them to look at every case. Would they have to inspect a sample to see if they were happy that the code of conduct had been adhered to and that it was lawful, proportionate and necessary, or do they have to wait for a complaint? Under what circumstances would a commissioner look at the issue?

That brings us back to the guidance about proportionality. Again, the commissioner has been clear about the changes for local authorities, because there were cases when it was not proportionate; the changes to which he has referred are very helpful and we support them totally, but last week the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, made the point about journalists. How is that affected by the code of conduct before us today?

Finally, I could not find anything about training, although I may have missed it because there are quite a lot of documents to go through and I did not know whether it was raised in the consultation. I refer to the training available to those who provide the authorisations and to those who seek authorisations, under either code. Will they receive any training on the new codes of conduct and the guidance that has been issued so that they know exactly what their responsibilities and obligations are?

I welcome the orders. Significant efforts have been made to address concerns that have been raised that any covert surveillance covered by either of the draft codes of practice is lawful, proportionate and necessary. The deal with the public is that any legislation that will be passed on surveillance is used only for the purpose intended—to make people safer against serious crime, including crime against the community, crimes which makes the community less safe. Terrorism is often mentioned in that context, and that is part of it—but that co-operation to deal with serious crime, whatever the purpose, is the aim. This provision goes some way to addressing that, but I look forward to a full review of all the issues that we have discussed. I hope that we can get to the point of having a proper public debate to ensure the integrity of the process that we need.

[Lord Bates]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions, which, as usual, have gone into the detail in some depth. We are grateful for them because it gives us an opportunity to put more information on the record. I am pleased to see the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, in her place. I would guess that she was caught out by the pace at which the earlier business moved through, like the rest of us, but I hope that we may be able to take her points into consideration as part of an ongoing dialogue.

I shall try to go through the issues in the order in which the noble Baroness raised them. There is no requirement or convention to say that, when there is a public consultation, we should eventually publish all responses to it—for a variety of reasons, not least because sometimes people have given information that they do not wish to be made public. However, as soon as the intervention was made to which she referred, we said immediately that it should be published. We are in the process of going back to the 125 or 126 people—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

It was 127.