Official Secrets Act and Espionage
Baroness Tyler of Enfield Excerpts(2 days, 6 hours ago)
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Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. I join her in thanking the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy for its scrutiny and its work in shining some light—where there has been a great deal of heat—on what actually happened. On the key points that she has raised, we will reflect on the committee’s findings and I look forward to debating them with her across this Dispatch Box in due course when we come forward with our response to the report. I remind her of the Prime Minister’s comments at the Lady Mayor’s banquet last Monday about our position: China
“poses real national security threats to the United Kingdom … It’s time for a serious approach, to reject the simplistic binary choice. Neither golden age, nor ice age”.
He said:
“So our response will not be driven by fear, nor softened by illusion. It will be grounded in strength, clarity and sober realism”.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, rather than simply blaming outdated espionage laws, does the Minister agree with me, as a member of the Joint Committee, that, given the parallels in the new legislation, they will need to be carefully handled to prevent a similar outcome happening again? What assurances can she give that these lessons will be learned and acted upon? Is she able to cast any light on the fact that it took eight months for the second witness statement from the Deputy National Security Adviser to emerge—the reasons for which, the report of the committee said, were very obscure?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her work as a member of the committee. I make it clear that we keep all legislation and its effectiveness under review, and we will continue to do so under the new National Security Act 2023. I would like to reassure your Lordships’ House that one of the things we have already done was a change in the mechanism of government: the Security Minister now has joint responsibilities to the Home Office and the Cabinet Office, ensuring a level of co-ordination on some matters.
On her second point about timings, my understanding is that it did not take eight months on the government side. I will talk noble Lords briefly through the timeline: counterterrorism police first approached the Cabinet Office for discussions on the second witness statement on 25 November 2024, and the Cabinet Office then submitted the second witness statement on 21 February 2025. In the months between, the Deputy National Security Adviser was clarifying the request and working with a small number of officials from the National Security Secretariat, but our appreciation is that it was not eight months.
Official Secret Act Case: Witness Statements
Baroness Tyler of Enfield Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I think it would be helpful if we went through the timescale of what happened with this case. The alleged incidents occurred. The Government—who at that point were the previous Government—met, and they instructed the Deputy National Security Adviser to provide a witness statement. At that point, and as soon as charges were made, the Deputy National Security Adviser was constrained in his wider engagement. Politicians were informed, but not involved, from that moment onwards because he was an active witness. Noble Lords have now had the opportunity over the weekend to read all the evidence statements available and will be aware, as I believe them to be, that they are a very robust statement of our position on China—the position at the time and, from my perspective, the position that needs to continue going forward.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Joint Committee. Given that detailed personal information about parliamentarians and others, including human rights activists, has, according to media reports over the weekend, been handed over to a top Chinese official described as very close indeed to President Xi Jinping, what assurances and support have the Government offered to these people regarding their personal safety, and what have they been told about the specific information that allegedly has been handed over?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
The noble Baroness makes the most important of points. One of the things that has been missing from conversations, including our own debate over the past week, is that people who some of us know extremely well have been targeted by a foreign state. Their lives, political careers and families have all been affected by these alleged incidents and by what has followed in the public space. There is now a duty and responsibility on us to make sure that those people are protected. With regard to the human rights activists, I know that direct conversations have happened and will continue to happen. We have been proactive in the guidance issued by MI5 and GCHQ, but we will work with everybody where they feel there is an additional security threat.