Windrush Compensation Scheme

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 3rd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness in what she says about Northern Ireland and southern Ireland. There will be people alive who do not even know where they came from, such was the chaotic system back in the 1950s, and until the 1970s, in both Northern Ireland and southern Ireland—in some cases children were sold abroad. Nobody could fail to be moved by the story of Philomena, who eventually identified who her son was after he died. The noble Baroness makes a very good point, and that is why we have the pre-1973 cohort and the pre-1988 cohort. The problems faced by the Windrush generation are not confined solely to people of the Windrush.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am a little worried about the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, on good character. It seems to me that someone is either entitled to be in the UK or not. What does good character have to do with it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Sometimes, someone who fails a good character test—for example, because of criminality—will be precluded from having leave to remain in this country. That is what the good character test is around.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Paddick]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. She repeated something that she mentioned on Monday, which I questioned but did not receive a response on. Why is age verification at the point of handover at a delivery point likely to be more thorough or more successful than age verification at the point of handover at the front door of a residential premises? The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, suggested a scheme whereby the delivery agent would take a photograph of the driving licence or passport to show proof of age at the front door. I accept from what the noble Baroness has said that the age-verification process that online retailers put in place must be thorough and rigorous and that there must be penalties for those who fail to comply, but I do not understand the blanket ban on delivery to residential premises when people have carte blanche to order online and collect from what could be a local newsagent. Last week, I ordered something from Amazon and collected it from a convenient store where the people are very busy. I do not see what advantage there is, when it comes to age verification, for such an article to be handed over at a collection point rather than at the front door of a residential premises.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want to be unhelpful to my noble friend the Minister, but can she point to any cases involving knife crime where the knife was acquired online?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure that I could point to such cases if I had them in front of me. What I can point to is the evidence I have just given to the Committee that young people have said it is easier to buy knives online. I am not saying those young people are the ones going on to commit crimes, but the fact that it is easier for an under-18 to purchase online says to me that it is an easier route, should that person have criminal intent, to make that purchase online. I hope that is helpful to my noble friend.

Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Monday 5th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a very valid point about victims of modern slavery, who will be supported and helped when they come here no matter what country they are from. Depending on their situation, they will be helped either to move on within this country or to move back to the country of their origin.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is it not the case that post-Brexit, we will be able to allow anyone whom we want to have in the UK to live and work here? Is it not also the case that we will not need to put visa controls on EU citizens if we do not want to and we want to have them here?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is right and the Prime Minister has made it absolutely clear. That is why we are making those arrangements for EU citizens to have their settled status here, either pre-settled if they have been here less than five years or settled if they have been here for five years or more. We want them to stay here and continue to work here. The Prime Minister has made that crystal clear; it would be good if the EU could also do that.

Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If the noble and learned Lord will indulge me, I will come on to the point about hostile state activity and the place for this law in due course.

I share my noble friend’s belief that those who do harm to the United Kingdom and the people who live here should face justice. I am not entirely convinced that introducing a new offence of treason, as proposed by Amendment 34, is necessary. However, as my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, have said, this country has a comprehensive range of terrorism offences and other powers that this Bill will update for the digital age—it is ironic that we are talking about the digital age and 1351 in the same debate—to reflect modern patterns of radicalisation and terrorist offending.

The updated legislation will provide the police and intelligence services with the powers they need to protect the public from terrorism, and we do not consider it necessary also to create a new treason offence for this purpose. For example, the activities covered by subsection 2(a) and (b) of the new clause are likely already to be offences under the Terrorism Acts of 2000 and 2006, in particular the offence of preparation for terrorism in Section 5 of the 2006 Act. This proposed new clause would therefore add little to the existing offences on the statute book. However, it is worth noting that the sentencing guidelines applicable to the Section 5 offence provide that where the conduct was with a view to engaging in combat with UK forces, this is to be treated as an aggravating factor when sentencing.

We are aware of the need to update legislation to keep it relevant for the contemporary and future challenges we face. I do not have to remind noble Lords of the phenomenon we have seen in recent years of people travelling overseas, most notably to Iraq and Syria, to engage in terrorist-related activity. That is why the Bill introduces a new offence of entering or remaining in a designated area: to prevent UK nationals and residents from travelling abroad to take part in or help sustain future foreign conflicts, and to protect the public from the risk of terrorism.

Furthermore, prosecuting terrorists for treason would risk giving their actions a credibility—my noble friend Lord Faulks referred to seeing them as martyrs—glamour and political status that they do not deserve. It would indicate that we recognised terrorists as being in some formal sense at war with the state, rather than merely regarding them as dangerous criminals.

As outlined by the Prime Minister on 14 March in her announcement in response to the Salisbury incident, the Home Office is currently leading a review of all legislation applicable to hostile state activity. It is considering the full scope of hostile state activity and, where relevant, treason offences may be considered as part of this work, which is currently ongoing. My noble friend will recognise the need to get the form of any new offences right. The policy exchange paper published in July was a useful contribution to the debate, but we should not rush it.

I hope that, having had the opportunity to debate this important and interesting issue, my noble friend will be content to withdraw his amendment, in the knowledge that there is ongoing work in the Home Office to examine whether there are further gaps in our law, and in order to help us counter hostile state activity.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that the Committee is grateful to my noble friend the Minister for her comprehensive answer. She mentioned engaging Her Majesty’s Armed Forces. Does she not think that engaging them ought to attract a life sentence automatically?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said, it most certainly can be viewed as an aggravating factor when sentencing is taking place.

Amesbury Update

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will remember that back in March we were sure that the incident bore all the hallmarks of a Russian state-type poisoning. We have no evidence that it came from another source, so I think that at this stage we can be fairly sure that the source is the Russian state.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the original advice to residents was correct? Further, does she agree that it is inconceivable that the authorities had not considered the risk of a discarded container? However, would it not have been grossly irresponsible to raise alarm among the general public when there was no possibility of finding the container, with the risk that members of the general public might go hunting for it when they were ill equipped to find it? As we know, there is the difficulty of the poison being very difficult to detect. Therefore, does the Minister agree that the advice and actions of the authorities dealing with this matter have been correct in all respects?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Like my noble friend and other noble Lords, I pay tribute to the police and the health clinicians who have worked on both incidents. Like my noble friend, I think that the original advice to residents was correct: there was, and remains, a low risk. There was no assumption about there being a source of the poison or about the possibility of it still being there, because one would not have known—in fact, one still does not know—that there was a discarded source of the poison. I suspect that local people were not hunting for it, but in the course of the investigation it will become clear how they managed to happen upon it.

Amesbury Incident

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a very important point, because he will remember that, last time, they were clad from head to toe in special suits to stop contamination. Their welfare is of the utmost importance. They risk life and limb to attend these things, and I assure him that their health and welfare is of the utmost concern to us, and we have of course put measures in place to ensure their safety.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that the UK Armed Forces have trained for a very long time to be able to counter chemical weapons attacks. The training is not very pleasant. My noble friend Lord Robathan and I will both have stood in a CS gas chamber and been told to eat a dry biscuit. It is not fun training.

We have a range of technologies available to detect and counter chemical agents. A persistent nerve agent can normally be detected by hand-held equipment, which is held at unit level. Am I right in believing that Novichok cannot be detected in that way? Does that partially account for why the clean-up operation has been so time-consuming and difficult, and why the authorities were unable to find any discarded equipment? They could go to obvious places where it might have been discarded, but it was very difficult to detect.

Saddleworth and Tameside Moors

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is important to put into context what has gone on in the last couple of weeks in Greater Manchester. The fires are terrible, but we have wildfires all the time. That process of risk assessment and deployment of emergency services is ongoing. I would not like to pre-empt what type of aircraft or firefighting equipment are needed to deal with wildfires, but it is certainly something that the fire and rescue service will be mindful of as it makes risk assessments, if indeed we see a continued trend of this type of warm weather.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the Army has a wide range of cross-country water tankers. Why are they not being deployed? Will the Minister assure the House that it has nothing to do with difficulties in negotiating the finance?

Home Office Removal Targets

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Thursday 26th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as I said yesterday, there should be a hostile environment for people who have no lawful right to be here. In terms of the Windrush citizens, there is a very clear distinction between the Windrush generation, who are here lawfully, and illegal migrants, who by their very nature are not here lawfully. Immigration enforcement is focused on removing illegal migrants, and the Windrush generation clearly does not fall into that category. In addition, the Home Secretary stated yesterday or the day before that 8,000 records had been manually trawled through to ensure that nobody had been deported inadvertently. Thus far, there is no evidence that anyone has been removed who is a Windrush citizen and is lawfully here.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I have an interest to declare, because I helped to take the 2014 Act through your Lordships’ House from the Government Front Bench. I do not recall the Windrush problem being raised, despite the fact that it has been a long-running problem—and I have asked the Library to research that in more detail. I agree with my noble friend the Minister that it is important to bear down on illegal immigration because it distorts the UK employment market but, more importantly, it leaves illegal migrants vulnerable, especially to modern slavery. Is not it the case that the party opposite was in power for 13 years and, although it had the opportunity, it never actually fixed the Windrush problem itself—that is, legal migrants and their children who came to the UK prior to 1973 and whose immigration status was never properly recorded? The party opposite could easily have taken the steps to avoid the problem years ago. Very regrettably, we—I use that word—did not solve that problem, and therefore we should all share in the blame for this disaster.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes two incredibly articulate points. He is absolutely right: we should not be pointing the finger of blame at each other to try to pass the buck; we should accept that over decades and decades these people have been failed. He is also right to point out that illegal immigrants are vulnerable to exploitation and, as he says, to modern slavery. We should be bearing down on people who are not here legally and, absolutely, the Windrush generation does not fall into that category.

Windrush Generation

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Monday 23rd April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, herein lies the issue the noble Lord has highlighted. I think the two cases he refers to were dealt with appropriately. However, what was deemed as, perhaps, a blip in the system is actually a far more systemic problem that needs to be dealt with. I had not been aware that the debate had taken place, but certainly this is a generation of people whose status now needs to be regularised and regularised quickly.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that Members of another place regularly escalate immigration cases for ministerial attention irrespective of merit? There is no sift. Therefore, why is anyone surprised that we get a debacle like the Windrush episode when ministerial time is wasted on cases which have no merit?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have seen the Immigration Minister’s case pile—not case file—and it is true that many cases come in through the Immigration Minister’s box. It is really important, particularly in a situation like this, that those with genuine cases are dealt with quickly. I hope that there are not people out there seeking to capitalise on this situation.

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentions a number of different events, which may or may not be theft. Some people might be quite grateful to have scrap metal that has been lying in their backyards for years picked up. Going back to the Scrap Metal Dealers Act, it is now unlawful for someone to buy scrap metal for cash, and therefore there is now a better audit trail of where scrap metal is going.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the legislation is clearly desirable and has been successful, but we have not totally eliminated the theft of metal, so it must be getting into the scrap metal industry. Can the Minister tell us anything about prosecutions of scrap metal dealers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can tell my noble friend that there were 62,000 offences in 2012-13, which came down to 16,000 in 2015-16. That huge decline in the number of offences tells me that there has been a huge decline in the number of thefts.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, what special characteristics do students have that mean that they do not use public services or public transport and do not need accommodation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend points out precisely why they are included in the migration statistics.