Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 4th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome the movement that has been made in this policy area, although, also like other noble Lords, I believe that it has all the hallmarks of an administrative nightmare. I ask the Minister to clarify one thing. In introducing these items she referred to the fact that people on housing benefit would be outwith the policy. I ask again a point I raised on Third Reading. I can see that somebody currently on housing benefit before the application of the policy is easy to spot and would not be assessed, but what is the position with somebody who is brought into the housing benefit regime because of the higher rents that could flow from this policy? Will they be out as well? That would be incredibly convoluted to deal with.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord—

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness might find it helpful to watch this afternoon’s proceedings. She put a set of figures to me which mixed up hundreds of thousands with hundreds of millions and it was quite difficult to follow where she was coming from. I do not want it now, but could she reiterate what she asked in writing? I am not trying to be difficult, but I found it quite hard to follow some of the mixing up of hundreds of thousands with hundreds of millions—and, indeed, fractions of billions. So if she would not mind, perhaps she could write to me.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked me questions which are quite detailed and technical in parts. He asked me about preceding years—in fact, I will let him intervene, because he probably needs to repeat the question to me.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords—

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the Companion, at paragraph 8.137, sets down the Standing Orders for how we conduct these debates. We are on Report, not in Committee.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend, but I was very clear that the noble Lord was asking a question of clarification.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful to the Minister, and I do not want to prolong our proceedings; we have much to get through. The issue was that if it is based on taxable income, does that not inevitably mean that it will have to be based on a preceding year’s income, because you cannot for the year for which you are setting rents possibly know the outcome of people’s taxable circumstances in all respects?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a reasonable point, and it is clear across a number of policy areas that it is not always possible to be absolutely accurate on either anticipated income or income in retrospect—but I will write to the noble Lord to clarify exactly what the framework for the policy will look like.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, we have concerns with the amendment. The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 was one of the most successful and supported pieces of legislation in this area of policy—although not always in your Lordships’ House. It strengthened and consolidated the aims of Labour’s original National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. Since then, the most recent Labour Government introduced the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, extending the right further.

We on these Benches are concerned that the amendment would unpick the agreement of the Natural England stakeholder working group which, as we have heard, brings together users, landowners, local authorities, ramblers and the Country Land and Business Association. I urge the noble Lord, if he wants further proposals to be brought forward, to work with the stakeholder working group to deliver a consensus on them.

I might also ask why the noble Lord feels the measure necessary when, as I understand it, there are already powers that permit landowners to apply to a local authority to make changes to such footpaths. A presumption in favour of a diversion would take power away from local authorities and reduce the ability of communities to have a say. I am not sure that that is in accordance with the Government’s localism agenda, although that is a bit thin these days. Local communities, through their local councils, should be able to shape their local area. We should support the rights of all to access the countryside and maintain existing rights of way, especially as the local countryside offers our citizens benefits in terms of health, exercise and mental well-being.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I applaud my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale’s efforts to help those who face problems with a public right of way that passes through their farm or garden. He will know through his contact with Ministers in Defra that the Government have considerable sympathy for those people who face these issues and who may feel that the system has let them down. Where these cases occur, people may experience acute problems: my noble friend has cited some examples, and I can think of others. Although the numbers are comparatively few, and we should ensure that any changes we make to legislation are proportionate to the extent of the problem, nevertheless, the Government are determined to help by putting in place a remedy.

Noble Lords may recall the passage of a suite of measures in the Deregulation Act 2015 which aimed to reform the system of recording and diverting public rights of way, to which my noble friend referred. The Government are now in the process of implementing these measures, which will come into effect later this year. We believe that the combined effect of these measures, which received cross-party support in both Houses, will make a significant difference, and that we should not legislate further before seeing how they work out in practice. A package of measures such as that, which is being implemented through agreement among stakeholders, is far more likely to prove successful in practice.

There is clear agreement among the stakeholders on the working group that developed the package of reform that the major difficulty for landowners is in getting local authorities to make a diversion or extinguishment order in the first place. Our plans to implement the right to apply for such orders will overcome this. The right to apply will enable a landowner to make a formal application for the diversion or extinguishment of a public right of way. With that will come the right to appeal to the Secretary of State if the authority rejects the application or fails to act on it. Therefore, local authorities will no longer be able to ignore requests or dismiss them out of hand. They will be obliged either to make an order or to be prepared to justify their reasons for not doing so on appeal to the Secretary of State.

The provisions in the Deregulation Act allow the right to apply to be extended to land-use types other than agriculture, forestry and the keeping of horses— for example, private residential gardens. The right to apply will be supplemented by guidance that will effectively act as a presumption to divert or extinguish public rights of way that pass through the gardens of family homes, working farmyards or commercial premises where privacy, safety or security are a problem.

The noble Lord references guidance and I will come back to that in a moment. A further hurdle is to get an order confirmed. However, according to the Ramblers, which keeps accurate records of these matters, of the 1,257 diversion orders which have reached a conclusion in the past three years, 94% did not attract any objections. Of the 6% that did, less than 1% were not confirmed following submission to the Secretary of State. The guidance will give authorities more scope to confirm orders made in the interests of the landowner in circumstances where a right of way may cause hardship because it goes through the garden of a family home, a working farmyard or other commercial premises.

There is no intention to water down the guidance, which was deposited in the House Library during the passage of the Deregulation Act. Defra officials continue to work with the stakeholder working group and the Intrusive Footpaths Campaign to finalise the drafting. We believe that the combined effect of the right to apply and the guidance will have the desired effect and we should not rush to legislate further before seeing how these measures work in practice. Moreover, under the right-to-apply provisions, the Defra Secretary of State will be the confirming authority for all disputed orders.

I am happy to reaffirm the commitment made by the previous Government that we will review, within two years of implementation of the reforms package, how effective the right-to-apply provisions and the accompanying guidance have proved to be. The review will send a message to authorities that the Government are determined that the new policy should work and that if guidance does not bring about sufficient changes, we will consider the introduction of further measures.

The amendment, which was also spoken to by my noble friend Lady Byford, is also concerned with public rights of way. However, she refers to urban routes in current use which are not recorded on the legal record of public rights of way, the definitive map and statement. The amendment would reduce the work of local authorities by removing a whole class of routes from the work to update the record.

I referred earlier to the package of measures in the Deregulation Act 2015 concerned with improving the processes for diverting, extinguishing and recording public rights of way. I also mentioned that the Government are working closely with the stakeholder working group which developed the original package of measures.

The secondary legislation will include regulations made under Section 54(1) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000—mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie—which allows the Secretary of State to specify descriptions of unrecorded routes which will not be extinguished in 2026. The working group and the Government are mindful of the need to consider urban as well as rural. We think that no further primary provisions are required to achieve the outcome sought by my noble friend. With these assurances, I hope that my noble friend will be persuaded to withdraw the amendment.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right that the archaeological aspect of a site could be mitigated. Perhaps we will move on to that issue later, but I thought I would mention it, given that she is sitting in front of me. It might be a good example.

A few noble Lords talked about local development orders. We will get on to those in a later group, but I want to make the point at this juncture that local development orders are quite different from permission in principle, because they are tools that local authorities use to grant detailed planning permission for a specific development within a defined area, such as unlocking problematic sites and playing a vital role in regeneration. I thought I would make the point, because it has been mentioned.

Amendments 89N and 92D, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, seek to place in the Bill an exclusion on certain sites from benefiting from a grant of permission in principle. Let me simply reaffirm the following truth: the Bill enables permission in principle to be granted for development on sites chosen by local authorities and neighbourhood forums. If a local authority considers that a site is suitable for housing-led development in line with local and national policy, it will be able to use permission in principle to help to ensure that such sites are delivered.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister about a point that has been puzzling me. Does the duty to co-operate between local authorities remain as it is under their current system?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, my Lords. Indeed, I would reinforce the point that the duty to co-operate, particularly on larger sites, is even more important, given the buy-in by local communities of two different local authorities. Does that answer the noble Lord’s question?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Yes. I thank the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I may reaffirm that if a local authority considers that a site is suitable for housing-led development in line with local and national policy, it will be able to use the permission in principle to help to ensure that the site gets delivered. The NPPF already provides strong protections for the type of sites listed in these amendments, including the green belt, the historic and the natural environment. At its heart, the framework is clear that local authorities should plan positively to meet each of the economic, social and environmental dimensions of sustainable development. For example, paragraph 157 sets out that plans should identify land where development would be inappropriate and contain a clear strategy for enhancing the natural built and historic environment. Permission in principle does not change any of these existing protections. Local and national policy has always driven how local decisions are made, and the addition of a new route to obtaining planning permission does not change that. I suggest that setting out centrally what type of land may or may not be granted permission in principle would set an unwelcome precedent.

Noble Lords have tabled a number of amendments to Clause 136 that seek to restrict permission in principle to be granted for housing development only. Amendment 90, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is part of the group. Although I understand the desire to add more detail to the legislation at this stage, there are important reasons why it would be unwise to restrict the granting of permission in principle to housing development in the Bill. First, and most importantly, if we restrict permission in principle to housing only, we lose the crucial ability to facilitate mixed-use development. We are currently consulting on an approach that would enable permission in principle to be granted for housing-led development to allow for the possibility of mixed uses that are compatible with a residential environment. This means that as long as a site allocation is housing-led, local authorities will be able to grant permission in principle in line with local and national policy for other uses.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 10th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will look at it again. I am assuming that the debts and liabilities are housing loans.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

There is one further point that has been troubling me. Given the hour, I was going to leave it, but I shall just raise it now. It is to do with Clause 68(3) and the provision that we discussed before lunch, and for a while after it, about treating as still owned by a housing authority property that has been sold. Is it the intent that those provisions last in perpetuity? If a local authority has been hit by a levy in respect of properties, it would have no opportunity of selling if that is what it chose to do.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the answer is yes. If it had kept its stock, it would be levied, as the noble Lord points out. If, after the Bill goes through, it decided to transfer stock, it would still be levied. That is my understanding of it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Does that mean it would have no control over whether it could realise any of those high-value properties if they were included in the transfer?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is my understanding, my Lords, yes.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

When I used the term surplus, I meant surplus assets that government might seek to dispose of, and I gave the example of King’s Cross. For local authorities, vacant referred very much to housing.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Could the Minister help me with a definition? Does succession to a tenancy create a vacancy along the way? On the death of a tenant, if someone succeeds to that tenancy, does that cause a break that would bring these issues into play?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It would depend on the context of the succession. If the successor was a spouse, there would not be a vacancy because that spouse would be immediately, automatically entitled to take on a future lifetime tenancy. If, for example, a child wanted to take over a tenancy, it would probably be short term. The only automatic right is with a spouse.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Is this not in danger of running in conflict with another government policy—the bedroom tax? If part of the rationale is to encourage people in larger houses to downsize and give up the tenancy to do so, the local authority is then faced with having to sell the high-value property. How does that work?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the spare room subsidy, if someone is in a property that has more bedrooms than they need to occupy, my understanding of the mechanism is that a suitable property would then be found for them. The noble Lord is asking whether the property that has been vacated would then fall into the definition of a high-value asset. The honest answer is that I do not know but the probable answer is not necessarily at all—probably not—because we are talking about high-value assets across a number of bedrooms. So I do not think it would but I will take that away, think about it and get back to the noble Lord.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is the point that I am going to take away and confirm with the noble Baroness. However, I am making the assumption that if local housing associations felt that there should be some property for social rent, they would be at liberty to provide it. I will take the point away and come back to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

Perhaps the Minister could help me out on this. Great faith is being placed in housing associations. I accept that—they have a great track record—but in reality there will not be enough housing to deal with all the need in every area of the country. How does she expect housing associations to deal with that constraint?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right: in different parts of the country, there will be entirely different needs across different types of tenures. Housing associations will make a judgment on that, probably in consultation with the council, residents and possibly the local plan. I suspect that there are a number of mechanisms through which they will consider the types of housing to provide in that area. That is how they usually operate, and I do not see this to be any different. I promised to get back to noble Lords on the point about socially rented properties.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

That is helpful, but in so far as they do not fully cover the position, the residual risk and obligation will fall on the local authority to pick up the homeless, those who are disadvantaged and those who cannot access properties via housing associations. Is that right?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There was a Question yesterday about homelessness. There are a number of government grants, some of which are directed through councils, either to prevent homelessness or to aid those who are homeless. Various mechanisms, including grants, already provide for certain types of housing, and I assume that that will continue.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

On the basis of our discussion before the dinner break, we identified that councils were picking up the tab for this policy. It seems that they will also have to pick up the tab when it fails people who have housing need.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would expect councils to work with the Government, housing associations and through the planning system to identify where needs are emerging. The noble Lord is absolutely right: there will be people in crisis need who the council will deal with through the various payments that they receive, such as discretionary housing payments. I would expect all those providers to be involved in meeting the needs of those in their area.

We should not be trying to constrain the freedom of housing associations to make sound business decisions about how to deliver their part of the agreement, or judgments about what is needed in various communities. Neither should we require them to identify replacement before a property is sold, because that would slow up the process for the tenant and in many cases would be impractical at the point of sale.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, made a point about right to buy at the expense of other tenures. I have made the point that we remain committed to build more affordable housing over this Parliament than from many years, including shared ownership and other forms of affordable housing. It is really important that hard-working people can buy affordable houses and get on the housing ladder. She also made a good point about the quality of the private rented sector. As we discussed under the rogue landlords clauses, the vast majority of landlords in the private rented sector are decent, law-abiding people who want to provide decent-quality accommodation for their tenants. I have a statistic here: 84% of private renters are satisfied with their accommodation. I appreciate that that means that 16% may not be but, generally, the private rented sector provides good-quality accommodation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I shall speak to what I think is the amendment of the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Kennedy, and I am sure that we will come back to it if I have not quite got that right.

We have already discussed today the grant-making powers. Clause 65 will prevent an overlap of provisions in respect of the payment of grant by the HCA to housing associations and it will prevent grants being required to be paid twice under separate provisions. The clause does not place any additional duties on the HCA and will help streamline existing legislation. Clause 66 will ensure that everyone is clear about to whom and to what the clauses in this chapter apply.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Lord Beecham, for their amendment. We understand the wider concerns about more homes being bought as buy to lets, made clear in Amendment 58. As noble Lords will know, we are addressing those concerns through the new rates of stamp duty, which will be 3% higher on the purchase of buy to lets.

For the reasons that I set out earlier, we do not think there is a case for specific restrictions to be put in place for properties sold under the voluntary right to buy. The right to buy is about giving individuals the opportunity to buy a home of their own, and tenants who do so should have the same freedoms as any other homeowner. They are not vultures or wide boys; they are decent people who have worked very hard and who aspire to own their own home, and it would be wholly unfair to housing association tenants who buy their home to be prevented from letting it out if they want to or need to for family, work or any other reason. It could restrict their mobility and we do not think that that would be reasonable.

Furthermore, with a commitment in the voluntary agreement to deliver additional homes through new supply, it is not necessary to impose controls of this sort or to restrict the use of the properties being sold. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Can the Minister help me out? She said that the solution to stopping properties being turned into buy to let was the new stamp duty provisions. However, if somebody acquires a property under the right to buy and then in due course vacates it and enters into a letting agreement, where does the stamp duty bite on that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I was referring to people who bought homes as second properties. In other words, I think the general market in second properties as buy to lets will be dampened somewhat by the new stamp duty rules.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I accept that, but I thought the Minister was offering that as a solution to the problem that Amendment 58 outlines.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was in a round about way, but I do not think that the noble Lord accepts that. In a round about way I was talking about the whole dampening of the market.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I accept entirely that the recovery could be by the local authority rather than the Government.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 38 and 39, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for Amendment 46. I will address them together.

I am very clear that starter homes are a new product. They are a manifesto commitment designed to serve a pressing new need. Clause 2 sets out the key parameters: a starter home is available to first-time buyers, under 40—the very gap that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to—at a minimum discount of 20% of market value and are subject to a price cap.

The proposed amendments would replace the minimum 20% discount on the open-market value with affordability criteria based on average local household income. Any discount would remain in perpetuity. This amendment would remove the 20% discount on local market values. I cannot support that as 20% is a minimum discount and, if they wish, councils would be free to negotiate with developers for a higher discount if that was best for the area. There is evidence that they do that at the moment for affordable housing.

Much was said at Second Reading and on Tuesday about the affordability of starter homes. Research on affordability by Shelter and Savills for the Local Government Association was based on median house prices in each region. I question whether first-time buyers access the market at average house prices, as I pointed out the other day. Starter homes will be valued to align with local house prices for first-time buyers aged under 40. We are working with the sector and professional bodies to ensure that a transparent process is agreed for valuation.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the Shelter report, which is not out yet—he must be a very important person, as I have not seen it yet. I will be interested to see it when it is published but I must point out that we all agree that London is expensive. I do not think that anybody denies that. In response, I would point out that we estimate that starter homes will be accessible to those with a gross household income of £45,500 in the south-east, as I added up badly yesterday, and of £39,500 in the east of the country.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to these amendments. I have listened with care to the comments made and thought it might benefit the Committee if I quickly set out some general comments with regard to the purpose of the 1% rent reduction.

As my noble friend set out at Second Reading, this Bill, including these measures, is part of a broader package of reforms, one of the aims of which is to put spending on welfare on a more sustainable footing, but in a way that protects the most vulnerable. I hope that answers the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and other noble Lords who asked the same question. The housing benefit bill for the social housing sector in England has risen by nearly a quarter over the past 10 years to £13 billion, and rising rents are a key part of the equation. Average rent increases in the social sector have been more than double those in the private sector over the past five years. That is why the Government have taken the decision to reduce social rents by 1% a year for four years from 2016. That will mean that by 2020 tenants will be paying around £12 per week less than they would pay under the current policy of CPI plus 1% increases.

I listened carefully to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, regarding Amendments 104C and 104D. The noble Lord brings a great deal of knowledge of these issues to this House—I had not realised he had been chief executive of Sheffield—but we cannot accept these amendments, which would reduce the number of years of the rent reduction from four years to three. The noble Lord asked why we have gone back on the 10-year rent settlement of CPI plus 1%. This measure is crucial to the Government’s drive to secure housing benefit savings in order to control the welfare bill. Moreover, it will reset levels of social rents, which have got out of kilter with the private rented sector over the past few years. Around 60% of social tenants receive housing benefit, and the housing benefit bill for England in the social sector stands at £13 billion, and has risen by a quarter over the past 10 years. Social rents have risen by around 60% over that period. The average weekly rent for housing associations has gone up from £58 a week to £92 a week over the past 10 years. In contrast, in the private rented sector, it is 23%. We recognise that social housing providers will have to manage these reductions, but the Government are committed to reducing welfare spending, and everyone has a part to play. Moreover, we are confident that social housing providers will be able to adapt.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asks why, if we are doing this in the social sector, we cannot do it in the private sector. We believe it is important to allow market rents in the private rented sector so that we have a diverse supply of private rental accommodation available for a variety of different needs. A fundamental move away from market rents would hold investment back when we most need to encourage it, and the resulting shortage of rented accommodation would help neither tenants nor landlords.

We also cannot accept Amendment 104E, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. It would require registered providers to increase rents by CPI plus 1% each year. The amendment also seeks to require the Secretary of State to review whether, given the impact of the rent reduction measure, there should be additional flexibility for registered providers to increase rents above the noble Lord’s proposal for an increase of CPI plus 1%. This is an important point that also goes to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven: the Government will determine rent policy after 2020 at a future fiscal event. When taking future rent policy decisions, the Secretary of State will have to consider a range of issues, and it would not be right to prejudge now what those issues might be.

The noble Lords, Lord Kerslake and Lord Best, talked about the OBR predictions of 43% fewer properties being built by providers. The Government believe that providers will make efficiencies to continue to release resources for new development. I remind noble Lords at this point that housing associations hold £2.4 billion in surpluses, which is a very similar amount to local authorities. In the spending review we secured over £20 billion for housebuilding over this Parliament, including £8 billion for 400,000 new affordable homes over the next five years, so the Government are playing our part in the provision of housing.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

How much of that £20 billion is going to be applied for social housing for rent?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That will be £1.6 billion.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I was not the Minister a year ago. However, I get the noble Baroness’s drift. The point is that we now have a majority Conservative Government and this policy has come out of that. I am not saying in any way, shape or form that it is the social rented sector’s fault. I am saying that that is the position in which we find ourselves, due to many different factors. Over the past few years, inflation has been one of the factors driving it up. However, I will correct that if I am wrong, given that I am saying it from the Dispatch Box.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the guidance to social providers on maintaining surpluses. We feel that it is a matter for the housing association boards to run their businesses as they see fit. It is a well-regulated sector that, to date, has managed its finances magnificently. Boards have been advised to raise any anticipated exceptional challenges with the regulator to discuss any difficulties that they might anticipate.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Is any guidance given to local authorities on prudent reserves?

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I may write to the noble Baroness; I understand her point. However, I also understand the point made by my noble friend Lord Horam: it is difficult to assess an impact within 12 months. It will probably take longer.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the high-income social tenants’ policy and its impact on housing. It is worth noting that we will have an opportunity to scrutinise this fully during the passage of the Housing and Planning Bill, when I will probably be the Minister standing at the Dispatch Box. However, at this point I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, expressed his concerns about the impact of the policy on children; the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, believed that we had a straightforward, simple proposition to put to the Government; and my noble friend Lady Blackstone still awaits an answer to the fundamental question she has now raised on the last two groups of amendments. We must hope that the correspondence from the Minister will elicit a response.

I accept the point that if particular issues arise, the route of exemptions and exceptions may be brought to bear to address them, but that does not substitute for the fundamental question my noble friend is asking: what is the Government’s assessment, in introducing these policies, of the impact they will have on the provision of housing and their targets for building houses? How will it be affected by this?

The noble Lord, Lord Horam, made a reasonable point about monitoring and said that one should do that after a period of longer than 12 months. I hang on to my point that we are looking for two things here: the Government’s current assessment of the impact on housebuilding of the introduction of the policy; and then monitoring what will happen in practice.

We have given this issue a good airing. For the time being, I beg leave to withdrawn the amendment.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has been in government and she knows the processes of government. She is right to say that I am a consensual politician, where I can be, but I will not stand at the Dispatch Box and give assurances that I cannot absolutely fulfil. I therefore have to say that I cannot do that but I will be doing all I can to make progress in this area. That is all I can say at this stage.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister as I thought that what she was beginning to say was encouraging, but can I clarify one point about the reference to specialised supported housing? This is really the nub of the issue. Is the definition which the Government are working towards the same as that exempting people from the benefit cap, or is it a different one?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is different. We are looking at this whole area of provision but it is a different definition. The noble Lord asked whether we could include the exceptions on the face of the Bill. They would probably be too complex to include in the Bill, while regulations would provide more flexibility to effect better the appropriate definitions and make adjustments in due course.

Funding for supported housing is also part of the Government’s wider financial settlement to councils. This includes investing £5.3 billion in the better care fund in 2015-16 to deliver faster and deeper integration of health and social care. This will enable councils to invest in early action to help people live in their own homes for longer. It will also help prevent crises, as well as supporting councils to work more effectively together, deliver better outcomes for less money and drive integration across all local services. We are also investing in specialised housing for older people. In the spending review, we have committed £400 million of funding to deliver 8,000 specialised homes for the vulnerable, elderly and those with disabilities through the affordable homes programme, with a commitment to further funding from the DoH for specialist accommodation. We will continue to support local areas to meet their local needs by maximising funding flexibility.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, who asked about the combined impact of the social rent reduction and capping the highest housing benefit awards for social renters, in line with caps applicable in the private rented sector, meaning that supported housing will be decimated. Now that I am looking at the noble Lord, I do not think it was him who asked this. But there was a noble Lord who asked that question, because I have written it down. Applying a cap on the highest social rents will mean that housing benefit will no longer subsidise families who take new tenancies in social houses that many working families cannot afford. The new cap will have effect only from 2018 for new or re-let social tenancies signed after 1 April 2016.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked whether the savings of £75 million were for supported housing. I do not know but I will write to him about it and I can come back to that question on Report, if he wishes. My noble friend Lord Young asked whether we can meet providers, as I think I have said. We have met providers and will meet them again.

Finally, I reiterate that while we expect providers to make all possible efforts to manage the rent reductions and plan on that basis, Clause 23 allows for individual providers to apply for an exemption from the rent reduction if they think that they will face severe financial difficulties.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, providers have a very good track record both in managing their finances and in terms of the housing that they provide, and I do not expect that a housing provider will go to the Government only when it is on its knees. In well-run housing associations, I expect that forward planning would show what sort of difficulties might be coming up and that they might therefore apply for an exemption on that basis. I hope it would not be at the 11th hour, because that is not good financial planning. I hope I have provided some reassurances and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very comprehensive reply. There was a moment there where I thought some comfort was coming, but it disappeared relatively quickly. I thank all noble Lords who participated in this short debate—forgive me if I do not pick up on all the comments, because I believe that pretty much everyone who spoke on this issue shared the same view. I also believe that the Government did not intend this to happen. We will cling to that belief and hope that it sees us to a sensible solution at the end of the day.

There is an overwhelming recognition that supported housing of the type we have discussed is significantly needed in our country, and that if it is not provided, the cost to the rest of society will spill over and be much worse. We need to act quickly on this. The noble Lord, Lord Best, in his comprehensive argument in favour of the amendments, made the point that we need to pursue exceptions rather than exemptions. Exemptions will not be any use to those associations which embed provision within their business plans, and the uncertainty that having to seek an exemption will lead to is one that many will not be prepared to live with or cannot live with. Urgency on this is important.

I do not think we had an answer on whether the other components which are exempted from the rent standards at the moment, such as PFI schemes, temporary social housing and short-life leasing schemes for the homeless, are going to be replicated in some way. The important point is that if the definition of specialised supported housing is not going to be the broader one, then the job will not be done, and we will return to this if it is not. We look forward to continued engagement on this between now and Report, but in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 17th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for, as always, his very sensible words. I said in my previous answer that I wish that when I had been a local authority leader I had had some sort of certainty as we lurched from year to year with local government settlements. I thank him for making the observation that the certainty is welcome. It also encourages councils to look at their reserve position. By their nature, reserves are for one-off, planned spending and are never intended to prop up revenue spending. However, if you know what your four-year position is, you can use reserves for one-off measures.

My noble friend talked about the reduction in RSG and—I presume by inference—the changeover to business rates. The Government will be consulting widely on that. I hope to see people like my noble friend coming to discuss with my department how some of the anomalous situations that might arise, particularly with an older population, can be dealt with through this process.

I take his point about devolution, but he will not be surprised to hear that, as a former Greater Manchester councillor, I do not perhaps share so much of his pessimism about it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that in April next year we have the introduction of the single-tier state pension and with it the end of contracting out. In Budget 2013 it was recognised that, from April next year, that would garner the Government an extra £5 billion a year. It was said at that time that those funds would be used to help fund the costs of the lifetime care cap, which was to be set at £72,000 and introduced in April 2016. That of course has been deferred, so what is happening to those resources if they are not going to be applied to that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I always know that when the noble Lord stands up he may ask a difficult question that I may struggle to answer. Could I please return to him in writing, as I quite frequently do?

Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can let the noble Baroness know that in writing because I do not know when that will be.

In acting to regulate, we have needed to respond to a tight deadline, but at the same time we have made every effort to avoid placing unnecessary burdens. This House has been greatly assisted by everything that has been said during this debate. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, will feel able not to press the Motion.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this short but very well-informed debate. On the proposition that there was limited time to consult, the letter of 2014 would at least have given some fairly clear indication to the Government that something was going to have to be addressed. Even taking June 2015 as the date when that opinion came through, we believe that there was time to consult and it would have been to the Government’s advantage to have done so.

As for who these things apply to, my understanding is that it is necessary to produce energy performance certificates when all buildings are constructed, sold, or rented out, but that displaying such certificates is necessary for large public buildings. It seems to be at odds with the professionals’ view that these regulations will force them to change their priorities. Is the Minister entirely dismissive of that view? This is a profession that received praise from my noble friend Lady Crawley. It has been doing this thing for a long time; it is extremely knowledgeable. Why would it advance the proposition that this will change its priorities and what it will do if that were not the truth? Does the Minister think that they are misguided or misled? Why is that proposition rejected?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I would not accuse the profession in any way of being misguided. As I say, we are open to taking further representations as time goes on.

Housing: London

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, how do the Government view the fact that one impact of the housing shortage in London is that London boroughs are relocating families away from London and away from the communities and services they know, which puts pressure on receiving authorities in respect of their housing provision and services? I refer to places such as Stevenage, Milton Keynes and, of course, Luton.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord brings up a very important point, but of course London authorities have always done that. The important thing is to make sure that fewer families have to reside in temporary accommodation, and we have made sure that that is the case.

Right to Buy: Housing Associations

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 12th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very important point, because at the heart of this policy are the tenants and their aspiration to own their own home. I will segue into the previous point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, about right-to-buy properties not keeping pace; in fact, that programme has literally just started.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, has the ONS confirmed that it will re-examine the classification of housing associations in the national accounts? That followed a warning from the Office for Budget Responsibility that the extended right to buy and the planned cut in housing association rents could trigger that review. Of course, reclassification would mean that income and expenditure would be part of the public finances and, most importantly, it would add something like £63 billion to the Government’s borrowing requirement. Is it not the case, and is it not part of the government rationale for the voluntary deal, that if right to buy is volunteered, not imposed, that removes one of the key reasons for the ONS review?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, whatever the ONS chooses to do in terms of classification, we are absolutely determined to deliver 275,000 affordable homes by the end of this Parliament. Noble Lords should not forget that the 2015-18 programme is still in its initial year, as I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. We saw housing associations—the providers—maximise outputs at the end of the 2011-15 programme, which has caused an inevitable lag in starts in the current programme.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend and I will see what further publicity can be generated in the next few weeks.

On the timetable for the guidance, the booklet that we published on 4 September aims to aid landlords in understanding and complying with the regulations, and nothing new has been introduced. The requirements of the draft regulations are simply explained in that guidance and, as stated in the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations, the Government did not intend to publish new guidance on this policy. Noble Lords referred to that last Monday. Instead we plan to use a variety of methods to publicise the instrument and the new duties to both local housing authorities and landlords. However, it was following a large volume of queries that we did decide to publish the explanatory booklet in order to help landlords.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, explained clearly the timeline of landlords being in breach and then issuing remedial notices. He also talked about testing on the first day of new tenancies for blocks of flats. In most cases a smoke alarm requires just a test button, but I appreciate that if new tenancies come in every day, it might be rather tiresome for the other tenants living in the block. If he does not mind, I will write to him in more detail about that.

My noble friend Lord Cathcart talked about the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning. He relayed that story to me the other day, and it is absolutely tragic. He also mentioned the point about fireplaces. They are covered under the regulations for carbon monoxide alarms. If fireplaces are clearly not being used as working fireplaces and are blocked up, they are exempt from the requirement to have a carbon monoxide alarm. He also talked about awareness among landlords, and has discussed with me the idea of a register of landlords from the council tax forms that people receive. He has now pressed me on this three times, so I will go back to the department and discuss his suggestion. He also raised access issues. He is right to say that a request must be made to the tenant to access the property. The testing could be done on the first day of the tenancy when the inventory is being taken. Landlords or their agents tend to be busy on the first day.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned the How to Rent guide and asked whether it would be updated. It most certainly will be, and I referred to it last Monday. He talked about the practical difficulties around testing. Again, it can be done as part of the inventory on the first day of the tenancy, through either the landlord or the letting agents. He also asked whether we could expect further regulations. They will be brought forward in 2017. He then talked about publicity for tenants. I will write to him with any further information I have other than the How to Rent guide because I do not have that answer to hand. The date of 1 October is very significant because a lot of students will be moving into the private rented sector.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether the alarms would have to be hardwired. The answer is no. It is up to the landlord how he or she puts them in. He talked about new burdens on local authorities. We try to make them as light as possible. We spent the previous Parliament trying to undo new burdens. I referred to the nearly £4 million that fire authorities were given both for publicity and the purchase of new fire alarms and carbon monoxide alarms.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Will the Minister just confirm that there will be no additional resources for local authorities undertaking compliance?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The point I was making is that we are trying to make the burden as light as possible. I will respond to the noble Lord on that.

The noble Lord asked about the exclusions and whether they would be covered in other legislation. Care homes, hospitals and hospices will be covered under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005. Hostels, refuges and student halls will be treated exactly the same. The only sector that is not covered is social housing, but it is so good at its obligations to tenants that it was not an area that needed to be included in the regulations. He also asked what energy companies were doing. We could write to them and ask exactly how they are playing their part.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, mentioned that the regulations apply only to small parts of the sector. That is absolutely correct. They apply to parts of the sector that have shown the least duty of care historically to their tenants in terms of the installation of smoke and carbon monoxide alarms. He talked about no budget. Of course, a £4 million budget was given to the fire authorities, but I do not know whether he was referring to other budgets such as that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about a widespread publicity campaign that still needs to happen. I will certainly go back to the department to see what further work can be done, given some of the concerns expressed in the House.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, on Report, I promised to return to this issue of consent. Accordingly, this amendment will ensure that any order to provide that a function of the combined authority can be exercised only by the mayor may be made only with the consent of the combined authority and constituent councils. There are a number of situations in which an order may be made to make a function of the combined authority a function exercisable only by the mayor. Our intention is that in all circumstances the authorities involved need to give consent.

There are essentially three circumstances for this: first, where new functions are given to a new combined authority and where these are to be mayoral functions; secondly, where new functions are given to an existing authority and these are to be mayoral functions; and thirdly, where existing functions of a combined authority are being made to be mayoral functions. This amendment will ensure that in all these circumstances consent from the combined authority and constituent councils is required. I thank the noble Lords opposite for raising this issue. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, we are pleased to see this government amendment, which requires an order where functions of a mayoral combined authority are exercisable only by the mayor—subject to delegation to the deputy mayor or another member or officer of the combined authority—to obtain the consent of appropriate authorities.

So far as delegation to the deputy mayor and others is concerned, this would appear to be undertaken by arrangement with the mayor although restrictions can be put on this by the Secretary of State by order. These restrictions would preclude certain general functions being exercisable by the deputy or may specifically enable a limited list of functions. It appears to be the case that, to the extent that the Secretary of State is taking the opportunity to fetter the delegation by order, consent of the appropriate authorities would be required. However, to the extent that the mayor is allowed free rein to arrange for others to exercise his or her functions, the consent of the appropriate authorities would not appear to be required. Is that correct and is it intended?

As I hope we demonstrated throughout the passage of the Bill, there has been substantial support and agreement on these Benches but some have expressed concerns over the position and role of a directly elected mayor. That the functions to be exercisable by the mayor will now require agreement of the relevant authorities, taken together with the prospect of some control over the budget, will provide some comfort to those concerned about the potential accumulation of power in the hands of one individual. We are happy to support the amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord and beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, as we have heard, my noble friend Lady Hollis has tabled two types of amendment to enhance the flexibility of the Bill. The first type of amendment, Amendments 2 and 8, seeks to enable combined authorities or individual authorities to which functions have been transferred to pool some or all of these functions with other combined authorities or local authorities. We hope that that in particular will find favour with the Minister, who might not even need these amendments to do that.

The second type, Amendment 6, would give a wide discretion to the Secretary of State to establish combined authorities or economic prosperity boards—we have not debated them much during the course of the Bill—by combining different functions in different areas. That would require the consent of appropriate authorities, and would have to demonstrate the improvement of statutory functions. This amendment in particular would enable local authorities to be part of one combined authority for some functions and part of another combined authority for others.

My noble friend has argued a strong case about the needs of medium-sized cities, particularly those in county settings. As we know now, this is not just a theoretical issue; it has been driven by her own experience in Norwich and by her wide contacts in other areas, which she spoke about today, who have identified with her analysis. As my noble friend has said, we are grateful for the opportunity yesterday to discuss these issues, and we anticipate an encouraging response in relation to Amendments 2 and 8, even if Amendment 6, about the opportunity for someone to be part of one combined authority for some functions and another combined authority for others, may be a step too far at this stage. We look forward to the Minister’s comments on that.

This is about ensuring that all areas have the opportunity to engage effectively with devolution opportunities. I conclude with a suggestion for the Minister about possibly convening a conference for the type of authority that my noble friend has identified to flesh out some of the very important issues that she has raised.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for her comments and for what was quite a productive meeting yesterday, together with the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham. I also thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay for clarifying the whole situation in a few sentences although, for absolute completeness, I shall go through the whole thing.

Amendment 2 would enable combined authorities to work in partnership with other combined authorities, and Amendment 8 would enable local authorities to work in such partnerships. Amendment 6 would provide greater flexibility for the Secretary of State to establish a combined authority even if the required geographical conditions were not all met. Following our discussion yesterday, I hope that I can provide clarity and reassure the noble Baroness that the amendments are not necessary.

As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay said, there are no impediments to local authorities and combined authorities collaborating and working in partnerships, including through establishing joint committees. A joint committee could comprise a number of local authorities, some local authorities and a combined authority, or several combined authorities with or without some local authorities. The power to form joint committees is in the Local Government Act 1972. It is exercisable simply by the authorities concerned deciding to form a joint committee. A joint committee can be responsible for exercising such functions of its members as those members decide they wish to exercise in partnership with others through that joint committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, even the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the part they have played during the passage of this Bill and for being so patient with me, this being my first Bill. Thank you.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, as we have come to our “Auld Lang Syne” moment, I thank the Minister and her team for their engagement with this Bill. We should congratulate the noble Baroness; this is her first Bill and she has approached it with humour, patience and a willingness to engage. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, as our deliberations have been particularly advantaged by him and his team; the Bill team for its willingness to engage; my Labour colleagues; my noble friend Lord Beecham and his continuing infectious humour; the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy; and the vital input from my health colleagues, my noble friends Lord Hunt, Lord Warner and Lord Bradley. I believe that we have collectively done our job in scrutinising this Bill and we wish it safe passage in another place. It is a worthy Bill which could herald great change.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is an interesting question. I have witnessed many a stand-off in local authorities. The combined authority is obliged through its voting arrangements, whatever they may be—they will be different in different places—to come up with a resolution. I appreciate that it might start with a stand-off but I hope that it will be resolved in accordance with the democratic arrangements within the combined authority.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about implementation, the short period of time and the powers of call-in. I hope I have explained to him that our new amendments give the Secretary of State the power to provide, by order, for a minimum call-in period.

The noble Lord also inquired about the chair of the overview and scrutiny committee. Under the Government’s amendments, the chair of an overview and scrutiny committee can never be a member of a constituent council if he is a member of the same political party as the mayor of a combined authority.

I hope those responses are helpful and that, with them, the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her detailed response to our amendments and a raft of other amendments. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his support for most of our amendments. I look forward to the Government bringing forward at Third Reading something on Amendment 34A and the audit committee. In respect of Amendments 35 and 37, I understand that the matter is already covered. I take the point on statutory guidance.

I do not 100% agree with the Government on Amendment 41 on the point that we discussed. However, it is fair to say that, together with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, we have a substantial identity of view over a broad range of areas. We do not have an identity of view on everything, particularly around access to some of the documentation. However, for my part, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I thank the Minister for her detailed exposition of the issues around these two sets of amendments. I support the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, in asking whether we can take this forward to Third Reading, if necessary. These substantial amendments herald very significant changes to what has been the process hitherto. We had the Delegated Powers Committee’s report just yesterday—for some of us who were on other duties, not until this morning—and the noble Baroness’s presentation raises issues. Rather than asking the Government to withdraw the amendments, why do they not proceed while recognising that they are if necessary open to final amendment at Third Reading, which is only a few days away? Given the range of queries now emanating from our considerations—every time we look at this it raises more issues—it seems that we should try to structure a meeting with the Minister, and colleagues if necessary, between now and then to iron out as much of this as possible.

From our point of view, as my noble friend Lord Woolmer said, if we can speed up the process we would be supportive of that in principle. We certainly support extending the arrangements to individual counties and councils. That is not an issue but some of the process stuff is. One point that bothers me still is in relation to what the Delegated Powers Committee report said on Amendment 62. In paragraph 11, the report says clearly:

“We see the scheme process, which involves local engagement and consultation, as being wholly different from the process of discussion and negotiation which takes place only between the local authorities and the Secretary of State”.

I would accept having administrative law brought into play and prayed in aid as a constraint or parameter that the Secretary of State had to comply with. But introducing that sort of concept fairly late in the day is a bit unusual, and its context needs proper consideration.

On Amendments 71 and 72, we know that the innate problem is of having a difference between those of us who believe that there should be some parameters put into the Bill, but not to stifle initiative and innovation, and the Government’s view that they will oppose that. Notwithstanding that, it would be helpful for progress today and to get the best solution possible over these amendments if the Government would recognise that, if necessary and appropriate after further discussion, this would be open for amendment at Third Reading. That would otherwise save us making more difficult choices here and now.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for the comments that they have made. My noble friend Lady Eaton talked about the problems of delay, which are very real. The noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, talked about Amendments 71 and 72 being necessary for places such as Cornwall. She is absolutely right.

My noble friend Lady Eaton asked whether an area that is not currently a combined authority can access the powers of devolution. She asked about areas without combined authorities. Again, without Amendments 71 or 72 it is not possible to confer powers on, say, Cornwall. Places such as Cornwall would be very concerned if the Bill did not have that power.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, asked why you cannot be in two combined authorities. Councils can be constituent members of one combined authority and non-constituent members of another. That is quite possible. I will give the noble Baroness an example before she gets to her feet. In Greater Manchester, Cheshire East is a non-constituent member of the Great Manchester Combined Authority for the purposes of, I think, business rates.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as discussions on these amendments have demonstrated, the ideas for devolution in London to London councils are interesting and varied. As I have explained many times in previous debates, there is an expectation that local areas will do just that and come forward with proposals to support devolution for their areas, and of course London is no exception.

I know that London boroughs and the Greater London Authority are working on a package of reform proposals, and I was very pleased to meet the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and others—I think that it was last week; time goes very strangely in this House—and interested to hear their thinking. We expect boroughs and the GLA to come forward to us with those proposals in the coming months. I recognise that the proposals may need a strengthening of London governance arrangements, and I can see how the proposals in the amendments may provide the kind of governance arrangements that might be needed.

However, for now, I suggest to noble Lords that we continue at some later stage our discussions on what the most appropriate changes would be to provide the London governance needed for future greater devolution and how such changes might best be provided for in this Bill. Therefore, I ask that noble Lords do not press their amendments.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in that brief debate. Insofar as what the Minister said, yes, of course, we will withdraw the amendment at the appropriate time, but it is good to hear that a package of proposals is being worked on which might entail strengthening of governance arrangements.

The point of having amendments now is that the Bill is just about to pass from this House. This is a legislative vehicle, which is why it is an opportunity to test the water on what might be an appropriate structure to deal with the emerging devolution proposals.

Clearly, the noble Lord, Lord True, is heavily involved in all this—it is an integral part of what he does—and I accept entirely that, as he said, there is a desire to continue with the work in progress of developing these thoughts. It is not a done deal in the sense of what he said. I accept, too, and can well imagine that devolution in London is heavily impacted by diversity and the need to build a climate of trust with government. Given the massive expansion in the population, to which the noble Lord referred, I acknowledge, too, the need to look at this on a regional basis and the need for broader discussion.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for his support for the draft amendments, on the basis that they are probing amendments to try to set down and understand some parameters. A key question that emerges from this is whether the legislative hurdles that they seek to address are real—I think that this is one of the issues that London Councils had concerns about.

I accept that this is not necessarily about locking people into particular institutions. It is an attempt to understand where these sorts of devolution arrangements that London boroughs wish to enter into can be enabled under existing legislation or whether something is needed in addition. Perhaps we could hear more specifically from the Minister. We had one discussion on that and it seemed that, in some areas, there was acceptance that additional legislation would be required. We have got the sense this evening that this is the case—this Bill will go to the other place in September and October but it will have been passed in some shape or form by the end of this year—so this is a missed opportunity if London devolution, as London wants it, needs the benefit of some tweaking or changing of legislation. Can the Minister address that point?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that—it may be that some tweaking of legislation is required; we have on other parts of the Bill similarly alluded that the tweaking of other legislation might be required in order to align it with this Bill on devolution. The discussions have started well but I request that we give a bit more time to this and discuss it in due course.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, Amendment 33 is to be welcomed as it requires a report, as we have heard, to be laid before Parliament at the same time as the statutory instrument containing an order under Clause 6. The report will cover descriptions of any consultations and representations received and evidential and background information. Amendment 70 requires a similar report in respect of regulations arising under Clause 10. We consider these to be important amendments, which we support.

However, the amendment raises one question, which I touched upon earlier in relation to Amendment 1. The devolution process under way is happening not just necessarily under an order in Clause 6 or 10. It has been an evolving process, particularly in the case of Greater Manchester. The build-up of that devolution arrangement happened under different provisions, and that could be replicated in other deals.

We are trying to understand whether this will culminate always in one order under Clause 6 or Clause 10, or whether there are bits along the way. If the latter, that would obviously have an impact on the type of information and the type of report, and on whether there are any gaps in it. How will it work in practice?

As I said earlier, the reports could be an important component of an annual report, but I would be interested in how it all works and how it culminates always in one order which then triggers the report that we are discussing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, for the two points that he raised and for his increasing confidence as the Bill goes along—it is reassuring to me if not to anyone else. He asked whether each and every deal would be brought forward in this way. The answer is yes. He also asked whether the reports would be in addition to the Explanatory Memorandum. Not only will they be in addition, but they will be full and detailed.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether the report plus the Explanatory Memorandum would be part of the full deal explanation, or whether it would be done piecemeal. My view at this moment—and I will correct it if it is wrong—is that once an area is ready to go forward with a devolution deal and therefore the orders that come with it, there will be a substantial report plus Explanatory Memoranda. It may be that that is added to through a future order, but that order on its own would then come through both Houses of Parliament. That is how I see it working, and I will correct it if it is not the case.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. The process undergone by Greater Manchester, Norwich, Cornwall and other places can act as a learning tool for small seaside towns which I agree absolutely may not, in the early stages, have the capacity or capability to think about what might be appropriate. We learn from others and this is an important process.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to our discussion on Cumbria. Either myself or my noble friend Lord Heseltine—or indeed both of us if we can manage to get our diaries free on the same day—are looking forward to meeting with Cumbrian representatives to discuss what I thought were some very constructive points raised by the noble Lord in the meeting.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the four reasons why devolution is not pursued. We understand and share the noble Lord’s analysis of why devolution can be slow or non-existent, and he gave a very pertinent example which I recognise from my local government days. However, where we differ is that I doubt whether these proposals for annual reports and statements are an effective means of challenging either silo working in Whitehall or the disruption, fear of difference and nervousness at the local level. The strong drive given by the Bill, backed by the early devolution of major powers and budgets, thus creating a whole culture of devolution, is the best way forward, not annual reports which may themselves become prescriptive, or at least perceived by local areas as a direction from the Secretary of State. Given those points, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the two amendments before us, with of course the exception of the Minister. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about the importance of not doing things piecemeal, and the pertinent point, reiterated by my noble friend Lady Hollis, that if no general principles are laid down, an annual report would at least help smaller authorities to understand what the parameters are in practice. We also heard the passionate commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, to the Bill, but he described these amendments as practical and sensible and a powerful antidote to the prospect of government from the centre drawing back the thrust of devolution. My noble friend Lord Warner talked about help with laggards, and said that the amendments would help us to understand the pattern. My noble friend Lord Liddle does a great selling job for Cumbria, which I hope it appreciates.

I say to the Minister that none of this would stop the “come and have a conversation” approach that the Government are pursuing. If anything, it should aid that process because it would alert those who have not yet engaged to the prospects—what is actually going on around the scene. This is a very positive contribution. Of course, nothing in these amendments is in conflict with Amendments 33 and 70, which will be moved in due course. Indeed, we can see those reports as a component of the annual report, but not sufficient.

I hope I did not say that Greater Manchester would not need to rely on Clause 6 at all. My point was that not all of the deal is dependent on the use of Clause 6. If the extra reporting that the noble Baroness is talking about is tied to that Clause 6 order process, it would not necessarily embrace all of what is going on in practice.

I had hoped that we could agree on this. The amendments are genuinely meant to help the Bill but the Government have made their position clear. On the basis that Amendment 2 is consequential on Amendment 1, I certainly would like to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness’s question is the subject of later amendments. Certainly, the London model is not being considered in Greater Manchester. However, during the Bill’s passage, there has been a lot of discussion on the need to strengthen scrutiny.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Before the Minister moves on, will she clarify what is included in “major powers”? What are major powers and less than major powers or minor powers? That is the dividing line in this matter.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As noble Lords will see, an example of major powers is devolution for Greater Manchester. That is an example of a suite of major powers.

I should like to make some progress. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to Amendment 3, which would obstruct our policy of allowing major powers to be devolved to a city because there is a necessary single point of accountability—that is, the mayor. The noble Lord also said that people should have a referendum to decide whether to have a metro mayor. We recognise that in the past some cities have rejected the opportunity to elect a mayor. This time it is an entirely different proposition. It is about putting in place a devolution deal which the democratically elected representatives of the place have agreed with government. Part of that deal is the necessity for robust local governance for the new devolved powers, and for a powerful point of accountability such as a mayor. It is for the elected representatives of an area who have a democratic mandate to decide, in discussions with government, whether they wish to introduce a mayor and benefit from major devolved powers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not and will not have a list. As I have said repeatedly, what powers are devolved will be up to agreement between local areas and the Secretary of State.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this has been an extensive and good debate and the time moves on, so forgive me if I do not respond to each point that noble Lords have made, whether it was as a trip through history about what has happened to elected mayors or the stage that we have reached today. The problems with the London system, some of the time, and the difficulties that other areas have found were mentioned.

I would like to challenge the proposition that the amendments are wrecking amendments. I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that that really is not the case. It was not the intent and is not their substance. If we look at the thrust of all the amendments that are before us today and will be on Wednesday, they are overwhelmingly about trying to improve the Bill and achieve the very thing that he wants and campaigns for. It is unhelpful to characterise these amendments as wrecking when, in total, we are trying to improve the Bill so that devolution can be delivered across the country.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the pertinent questions about major powers—what is in and what is out—and of course we got the usual answer. I do not think that anybody sees it as a credible response to say that nothing is being imposed on people because the Bill is a framework Bill, in circumstances where the Government make it absolutely clear from the start that you can get certain powers only if you have an elected mayor. That is not a process of not imposing anything on anybody. It is making sure that the price paid is very clear up front, in some circumstances. It is very unclear in other circumstances what price will be asked, depending on what powers are available. I am bound to say that whether we are in favour of or against elected mayors instinctively, we did not see it as a ladder up which budding leaders could climb—and even less so a retirement job for ex-Cabinet Ministers. I did not think that that was the process we were involved in today.

The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made a powerful speech reiterating his passion for devolution and what it could lead to. We support all that but he himself said that if somebody comes up with something it will be considered, so seemingly from his point of view there is not an inevitable imposition of an elected mayor. The noble Lord may feel that something credible would not come up, and he may or may not be right. But even he seemed to recognise that there should be scope, which is effectively what Amendment 3 is seeking. It may be, in the terms used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the wording is imperfect but then it is the job of government at Third Reading to tie that up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the amendment requires that on page 19, line 10, we should insert:

“An order under sub-paragraph (2) must include provision for an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any PCC functions of the mayor”.

This is a straightforward issue. The amendment deals with the important role of the PCC taken on by the mayor and the extent to which its functions can be passed to others. It seeks to ensure that there is a proper appointments process to put that into effect. I beg to move.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for being so brief in moving the amendment. As he said, it seeks to insert a new provision into new Schedule 5C to ensure that the Government must provide, by order, an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any of the PCC functions of the mayor.

The amendment is not necessary because the Government have already committed on the Floor of this House to apply Schedule 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to metro mayor areas by order where PCC functions are being transferred. Paragraphs 9 to 12 of that schedule set out an appointments process for senior posts below a PCC, including for the post of deputy PCC. This involves the scrutiny of any proposed appointment by a police and crime panel. I reiterate that we intend to apply these provisions to metro mayors by order to ensure that such appointments are properly scrutinised in the same way. The role of the dedicated police and crime panel will, of course, continue.

However, it will almost certainly be necessary to amend these provisions to some extent before they can be applied directly to a particular metro mayor area, given the different structures and posts which might exist in different areas, hence our proposal to implement this by order. I wish to be clear that we intend that there will be an appointments process for senior posts that will be based on that set out in Schedule 1 to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. All posts other than that of the deputy PCC mayor, and which support discharging the mayor’s PCC functions, will be subject to the standard local government requirement that appointments must be made on merit, as set out in Section 7 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. This requirement currently applies to all appointments made by PCCs other than the post of deputy PCC, which may be a political appointment, albeit still subject to scrutiny by the panel. Appointments to all other posts below mayor on policing matters would have to be made on merit alone, and appointments to senior posts will additionally be subject to scrutiny by a police scrutiny panel.

I hope that reassures the noble Lord and that he feels content to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for that much longer explanation than mine in moving the amendment. It is perfectly satisfactory and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It might be helpful to noble Lords if I say that Amendments 62 and 77 are expected to be reached on Wednesday. They are after Clause 9. Therefore, there will be an opportunity to discuss them then if noble Lords wish.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about fast-tracking becoming the norm. The amendments have been proposed to enable deals where constituent councils are content to approve deals that are ready, not to rush other areas that might take a bit longer. He also asked what underpins the Secretary of State’s judgment if there is no scheme. It will be the information and the evidence available in the deal. If insufficient information is available for the Secretary of State to make a judgment on whether the tests are met, then the fast-track process cannot be used.

The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, asked two very useful questions. One was on changing an existing combined authority. The answer is yes, existing combined authorities would be able to be non-contiguous or doughnut-shaped; I am glad he will find that response helpful. He talked about non-adjoining areas. The answer is also yes, that will be possible. I hope that that assists noble Lords.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, could she clarify this? I think she said that we would reach Amendments 62 and 77 on Wednesday. According to the groupings list, they are in the group that we have just discussed.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the amendments would be after Clause 9, so they can be discussed then if noble Lords wish.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

We would be very happy to have a further discussion—it is vital that we do—although we would be squeezed for time on Wednesday with lots of other big issues. I thought from what the noble Baroness said that these amendments are not included in the group that we just discussed. According to the groupings list, they should be.

Local Government Funding

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 8th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there were a few questions in there, but I just cannot share the view that the Government are stopping local government from raising its own income. On business rates retention and the new homes bonus, local authorities have seen incomes above what was expected from these areas. On need, I will list the 10 authorities with the highest spending power per dwelling: Hackney, Newham, Tower Hamlets, Camden, Knowsley, Islington, Southwark, Brent, Lambeth and Haringey. They are all Labour authorities.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, can I take the Minister back to spending power—the Government’s favourite measure, as I understand it—and pick up some of the areas that she just identified? If noble Lords look at the two-year period to 2015-16, the local authority ranked first in the multiple deprivation index had a 10% cut in its support; Newham, ranked second, had an 11% cut; Knowsley, ranked 12th, had an 11% cut; Middlesbrough, ranked 27th, had a 10% cut. Yet, at the other end of the spectrum, Woking, ranked 294th, had a 2.3% increase and Wokingham, ranked 325th, had a 2.9% increase. How is this a manifestation of the fact that we are all in it together?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the two authorities that the noble Lord mentioned, Hackney and Newham, have spending of almost £3,000 per dwelling and £2,800 per dwelling respectively. In terms of quantum, they are doing considerably better than a lot of other local authorities.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am very happy to use this probing amendment to set out how I see the position in relation to London. I did indeed say at Second Reading that there was nothing to preclude London boroughs or the GLA from coming forward. Perhaps I will expand on that slightly this evening. It is for the London mayor and the boroughs to continue to work together and to agree proposals, which the noble Lord tells me are ready, for greater devolution of powers to London. These could include provision to transfer public authority functions to a joint committee of councils or the establishment of a joint board between the boroughs and the mayor. We will consider whatever the mayor and London boroughs wish to propose, and no doubt they will be making a strong case as to how any proposal they make would provide better outcomes for Londoners. As with any other area, we are ready to have conversations with them, and look forward to those proposals coming forward.

The amendment, however, would turn the process on its head, because it would be the Secretary of State who kicked things off with his report. This is not the approach that we want to follow, as I am sure noble Lords will have established by now, because we believe that such an approach is far less likely to deliver genuine and effective devolution that will improve to the greatest extent the outcomes places face and the economic performance of particular areas.

I hope that on that note the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for his support for this amendment and to the Minister for her reply. If I understood it, I think she was saying that under what is proposed it will be perfectly feasible that the boroughs and the GLA et cetera simply need to come forward and make their case. However, is she saying that what is sought under the new arrangements does not require any change to primary legislation? That is the issue here. Perhaps she could just answer that specifically.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as far as I am aware, it does not. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the manifesto commitments on further devolution to the London mayor as well. I hope that that reassures noble Lords.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful for that and think that I am reassured by it. I think that it needs a quieter reading than at this hour—perhaps in the morning on the train. If, effectively, it does not need primary legislative change, that is fine. I think that we still have scope to bring something more specific back at Report if that proves not to be the case. I know that the Minister is stacking up lots of meetings at the moment, but it would be very helpful to have a specific meeting with London Councils, to make sure that the case it is making is fully heard and that it understands the technical position that she has outlined.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, before amendments are withdrawn et cetera, I can confirm that, and have actually already started to have a conversation with one London authority.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments of my noble friend Lord Berkeley reasonably probe the Government and focus on issues which should underpin a combined authority’s operations and strategies. There are issues around the health of people in the area and around sustainable development, about which my noble friend always speaks with passion. I know the Minister’s answer will be, “You can ask for all these things; you may well get these things in a deal; but you do not have to have them in the Bill”

The consultation requirements in these amendments are a little more specific than one would like, even if one were in support of putting them in the Bill. The issue here is to encourage all the deals that take place under these devolution proposals to have, as their underpinning, issues around sustainable development and the health of people in the area. I am sure the Minister will tell us there is no reason why those issues should not feature in any deal that might be entered into. If that is not the case, there is a stronger case for putting something more specific in the Bill.

As to the strategic view on transport, if there is an argument for putting measures in the Bill it might be to hold the Government to account so that we do not proceed on an assumption of a northern powerhouse, with a big debate around connectivity, and hear a few days later that the funding is not there to deliver on it. That does not help trust between government and local authorities in creating an environment where devolution can work and where issues around sustainable development and the health of people in an area are at the forefront of the strategic operations of a combined authority.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments seek to introduce into the Bill new clauses that would place on combined authorities prescriptions and requirements about how they exercise certain powers which may be conferred upon them.

Amendments 44DA and 44DB place requirements on how a combined authority which has been given the full general power of competence through the provisions of Clause 9 of the Bill is to exercise these powers. These requirements are about having regard to certain matters and having to undertake consultation with various specified authorities and other bodies. The intention of new Section 113D, which Clause 9 inserts into the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, is to allow the same power of general competence that is available to local authorities to be conferred on combined authorities. The purpose of such a general power is to give the authority concerned the same scope and freedom of action as is available to any individual, such as you or me, subject to any specific legislative restraints applying to that authority.

To seek to prescribe to combined authorities how they should exercise this power would seem to be contrary to the essence of the general power of competence. It would place combined authorities in a more restrictive regime than that which applies to local authorities generally. There are no grounds for doing this in those situations where, as part of an agreed deal, it is considered right to give a combined authority the full general power of competence.

I recognise that these amendments appear to mirror some of the provisions that apply to the Greater London Authority. In the London context, the authority has the power to do anything which it considers will further any one or more of its principal purposes. In exercising this power the authority is required to have regard, for example, to its effect on the achievement of sustainable development in the UK and on the health of persons in Greater London. However, these specific powers which are given to the Greater London Authority are of a very different nature to the general power of competence, which, as I said, is the power for an authority to do anything which an individual can do, unless it is specifically prohibited. These are particular powers about promoting economic development and wealth creation in Greater London, promoting social development in Greater London and promoting the improvement of the environment in Greater London. It may be in a particular deal that similar powers are conferred on a combined authority, using the powers in the Bill under Clause 6.

Amendment 44DC provides that in preparing or revising any transport strategy a combined authority shall have regard to the health of persons in its area, the achievement of sustainable development in the UK and certain matters relating to national policies, international obligations and the available resources for that strategy. This amendment mirrors provisions which apply to the London mayor in respect of his general duties in relation to his strategies. However, such provisions are not appropriate to be included in an enabling Bill, which does not refer to any particular powers or duties a combined authority and its mayor may have. If, as part of a particular deal, a combined authority mayor is given a power similar to the Mayor of London’s in relation to certain strategies, then it may be right that, in the case of that combined authority, matters such as sustainable development and the health of the people in the area could be relevant considerations to be taken into account by the mayor when drawing up those strategies. The orders creating such an arrangement would be able to reflect this.

Whatever the importance of particular issues, and clearly the health of people in an area is of the utmost importance, it is not for this Bill to include either references to specific powers, or provisions which can relate only to specific powers. This is an enabling Bill and in our previous debates I have made very clear that the Bill is not a vehicle for setting out lists or descriptions of powers which may or may not form part of an agreed deal with particular areas. Accordingly, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I know that we deal with situations where the best can happen in the best of all possible worlds, which is where we are on the Bill. However, could the noble Baroness confirm that in a whole range of functions being devolved to a combined local authority and the budgets to go with it, the prospects of those budgets being aggregated—with freedom for the combined authority to spend as it wishes, given those particular functions, and not have to follow the Bill above those amounts—would be perfectly possible, feasible and welcomed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord gives a theoretical example, which I am not in any position to stand at the Dispatch Box and confirm. I know I have reiterated this during the course of the Bill, but it really would be for a group of local authorities to prove that whatever proposal was put forward would result in growth and be fiscally neutral.

Affordable Housing

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 25th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will certainly write to the noble Lord, but I am not in a position to make policy announcements at the Dispatch Box.

The noble Lord alluded to Keswick, so I will outline how we are supporting housing in Allerdale council. There have been 460 affordable homes delivered in the Allerdale local authority area between 2010 and 2015. In terms of help to buy, there have been 80 equity loan sales to March 2015, 58 mortgage guarantee loans, 158 homes supported by 20 new-buy mortgage loans and, up to 2014, the new homes bonus for Allerdale has been £791,455.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, said that the current right to buy has become more generous with increased discounts and shorter qualifying periods. The qualifying period was reduced from five years to three years under the Deregulation Act 2015, returning to the original qualifying period set in the 1980s, and the right to buy discount has increased to realistic levels after years of stagnation when the discounts became irrelevant.

A question was raised about making land available. We want to make brownfield land available because people want new homes to be built near existing residences while the green belt and the local countryside are protected. They might even want to build their own home. We will ensure that brownfield land is used as much as possible for new development. We will require local authorities to keep a register of what is available and ensure that 90% of suitable brownfield sites have planning permission for housing. I mentioned in this House the other day that we will create a brownfield fund to unlock land. There will also be a new London land commission to identify and release all surplus brownfield land owned by the public sector and fund housing zones to transform brownfield sites into new housing, creating 95,000 new homes.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, made the point that no one believes that one-for-one replacement will work, especially in London. There is inevitably a lag between sale and replacement in order to assemble land, get planning permission and so on. That is why in 2012 councils asked for three years to deliver the one-for-one figures that we have published today. They show that 3,053 additional homes were sold in 2012-13, and 3,337 have been started or acquired. The numbers have doubled in the last year, so councils are delivering the one-for-one replacement to date. However, we cannot expect to see the figures on that replacement immediately.

Two noble Lords talked about the definition of affordable housing. It is set out in the National Planning Policy Framework and in the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008. The definitions are as follows. The National Planning Policy Framework defines it as:

“Social rented, affordable rented and intermediate housing, provided to eligible households whose needs are not met by the market. Eligibility is determined with regard to local incomes and local house prices”.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me for interrupting, but using those definitions, on the affordable programme that the noble Baroness has talked about today, of the 55,000 houses each year, how many of those are social rented homes and how many are intermediate homes?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I may get back to the noble Lord on that particular figure. He always asks specific and detailed questions, so I shall get back to him on that.

I shall carry on with the definition:

“Affordable housing should include provisions to remain at an affordable price for future eligible households or for the subsidy to be recycled for alternative affordable housing provision”.

The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 defines social housing as,

“low cost rental accommodation and low cost home ownership accommodation”.

“Low cost rent” is simply defined in the Act as “below the market rate”, while “low cost home ownership” is defined by its availability for occupation on a shared ownership or equity percentage basis.

I note that time has run out and there is a host of questions that I have not managed to get through. I will write to noble Lords whose questions I have not addressed, and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 24th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very interesting point. Other points have been made at length in this House about single-party states, but in terms of election periods or cycles being out of kilter because of different types of elections, I would imagine—although I will confirm this with the noble Baroness—that they are the sorts of things that would need to be ironed out when a devolution deal was done on how that combined authority’s elections would pan out. I am thinking of the Greater Manchester situation, where we are in thirds and all synchronise nicely. But I can foresee that process.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not sure whether I am going to be helpful to the Minister, but would it be possible that, between elections, the Secretary of State could remove all the functions from the mayor, so that they would stay with the combined authority members?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if that were to happen, the Secretary of State would have to disband the combined authority and something in its place would have to be set up.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Perhaps the Minister would reflect and write on that point.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would like to correct the comment that I have just made and come back to it in a future group, because I have clearly got it wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, before discussing Amendment 35, perhaps first I could speak briefly to Amendments 34 and 36 in the name of my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh, who cannot speak to them himself. They are self-explanatory, in that Amendment 34 makes reference to a,

“local authority member of a combined authority”,

having,

“responsibility for finance and resource management”.

Amendment 36 calls for the Bill to specify,

“the number of local authority members within a combined authority area who can veto the draft budget”.

We would happily support each of those amendments.

The Bill enables a power of veto over the mayor’s budget, and Amendment 35 would enable the combined authority also to change that budget in circumstances that would clearly need to be spelt out in the order. That opportunity seems to be provided for in the Manchester agreement. The Bill itself makes reference to changing the budget, but it implies that that is as a result of the initial scrutiny process, not following on from the combined authority’s approval or otherwise of the draft budget. Could the Minister confirm that?

Just to recap, the Bill talks about a mayor preparing a budget; a draft to be scrutinised by other members of the combined authority and the committee, dealt with in Schedule 5A; the making of changes to the draft as a result of the scrutiny—presumably with the approval of the mayor; and the approval of the draft by a combined authority, including a power to veto the draft circumstances specified in the order and the consequences of such a veto. Our amendment proposes simply that we have not only a right to veto but a right to change the budget. There would need to be a threshold of those supporting that proposition, which is again the case in Manchester. A veto is a power, and it can be quite a weak power in certain circumstances. You could simply end up with a ping-pong type arrangement between the mayor and the other members of the combined authority, which would be unfortunate and inconsistent with the effective operation of a combined authority.

We support the thrust of Amendment 33. As some noble Lords have touched on, it raises a number of issues that need clarification. In part, those of us who can remember municipal bonds support it with a sense of nostalgia. I am sorry to hear that my noble friend did not buy any Luton bonds in her previous investment, but perhaps next time. I am interested to understand quite how this will work when it will be available only to residents of an area. I think that that is easily dealt with at the point at which it is issued, but what happens thereafter? As my noble friend Lord Liddle said, whether that has an impact on marketability is an important issue.

As I understand the Bill as it stands, the Secretary of State can by order enable an authority to borrow for specified functions, provided that it has the consent of the constituent councils, but I do not think that that extends to mayoral functions. That could be changed, but we would like better to understand how this all fits together and how the total funding and borrowing opportunities of the combined authority sit with the existing position of those separate authorities. How does that impact on prudential borrowing and, therefore, the scope for the type of bond the Minister is talking about?

We can certainly see the benefit of raising funds for specific projects but, even if you can borrow for mayoral functions within a combined authority, it seems to me that you do not want that borrowing power to drive the functions the mayor gets; that is the wrong way round. You have to see what functions the mayor would have under these arrangements and see how they should be financed.

My understanding is that if there were associated costs—if my noble friend is right and this measure did not wash its face in all circumstances, particularly on infrastructure projects where there can be long lead times and not necessarily early returns—those would be picked up and met by a precept, not a levy, on the constituent authorities. Given the constraints that central government have hitherto imposed on increases in precepts, it could unwittingly impact on all that.

This measure needs to be unpicked so that we can better understand it. It seems to be a very helpful suggestion, and you can see the benefits that could flow from it, but it would need to sit together with the intended funding arrangements or the likely opportunities for the combined authority as a whole, quite apart from the wider issue of fiscal devolution, which we will come to in subsequent amendments, probably on Monday. We are on the side of those who would like to make this work, but it needs to fit with what we have before us.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is refreshing to hear innovative ideas coming from your Lordships’ House. I commend my noble friends Lady Wheatcroft and Lord Moynihan on some of the suggestions that they have put forward. Amendment 33 seeks to amend new Section 107F of the 2009 Act to allow the Secretary of State by order to enable the mayor to raise funds for the carrying out of specified development projects, by the issue of bonds to be made available only to those residents within the combined authority area. I was interested to hear about the experiences of the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, in Bristol. As I have said, the intentions behind the amendment are to be commended. The Secretary of State can by order confer a power on a mayoral combined authority to borrow. The mayor individually cannot borrow because, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, he or she is not a corporate body. Borrowing by a combined authority where it is given the powers to borrow is secured on the revenue that that authority will receive, as the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, pointed out. Accordingly, any borrowing by a combined authority will be under the same prudential borrowing regime that applies to local authorities. This means that the level of borrowing must reflect the level of its likely reserves.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, asked what could be funded by bonds. In any case it would be a matter for the discussions leading to the bespoke devolution deal as to what might, in the art of the possible, be borrowed. As I have said, any borrowing must conform to the principles of prudential borrowing, which apply to all borrowing by local authorities.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked about the functions to benefit by municipal bonds. The functions that might be supported by investment and funded by prudential borrowing, which could be in the form of bonds, are a matter for the conversations with that area which lead to its bespoke devolution deal. As my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft said, this is an enabling Bill. Clause 8(3) allows the Secretary of State to specify which functions of a combined authority may come within the scope of borrowing powers given by the Local Government Act 2003. The sources of borrowing available to combined authorities include issuing bonds as well as taking out loans. The devolution deal will determine which functions the combined authority can borrow for. Decisions over whom an authority obtains their financing from are a matter for the authority.

Amendments 34 to 36 seek to alter the powers of the Secretary of State to provide for scrutiny of the mayor’s draft budget. Amendment 34 would insert a new Section 107F(3)(c), which would allow the Secretary of State by order to make provision to appoint a local authority member of a combined authority to have responsibility for finance and resource management. In effect, were such provision made, it would prescribe that there must be a member of the mayoral combined authority who had finance responsibilities, and that the member with these responsibilities would be a councillor from one of the constituent councils. It is rightly the mayor who should decide to whom he or she wishes to delegate his or her responsibilities, and this includes responsibilities for finance. To return to a point that I made earlier, it is consistent with local authorities operating their cabinet arrangements at present, with the mayor deciding which member of his cabinet should hold certain portfolios with certain responsibilities. We are clear that this should also be the case for metro mayors. For mayoral governance to be effective, the mayor must have discretion to assign portfolios and delegate responsibilities to enable the effective delivery of their promises to their electorate.

I understand that the intention of this amendment may be to place checks and balances on the mayor’s powers. There is of course a chief finance officer for the combined authority, also known as a Section 151 officer, whose role is to ensure compliance with all statutory requirements for accounting and internal audit and to manage the authority’s resources. The chief finance officer is under a duty to make a public report if they consider that there is, or is likely to be, any item of unlawful expenditure. An additional proscription on the creation and assigning of member portfolios is an unnecessary check or balance, and risks frustrating the exercise of the mayor’s functions.

Amendments 35 and 36 seek to provide additional checks and balances on the approval of the mayor’s draft budget. Amendment 36 would insert a power for the Secretary of State to provide for a specific number of local authority members within a combined authority area to be able to veto the mayor’s draft budget. The Bill as it stands allows for the Secretary of State by order to make provision about the preparation of the mayor’s annual budget which, in particular, may provide for the constituent council members of the combined authority to scrutinise the draft budget, to make changes to it and to have a power of veto. The circumstances in which a veto may be used, and the consequences of any such veto, would be proposed locally and provided for in the order creating the mayoral combined authority. The Bill also allows for the overview and scrutiny committee, a politically balanced committee made up of councillors from the constituent authorities, to scrutinise the draft budget and recommend changes to it.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this is a small and narrow amendment. In fact, I contemplated whether I should move it at all, but as I have written it I might as well. It is intended as a probing amendment to understand the circumstances in which the schemes for transfer of property et cetera provided for in the Bill are contemplated and whether any are on the cards in the discussions that are taking place.

I was particularly prompted to think about this because of debates we had on the Localism Bill when some of its provisions were put in place, particularly Section 17, which is referred to and imported, in part, into the provisions of this Bill. Can the Minister tell us anything about experience to date on the operation of those provisions, which very much mirror what is in this Bill? There is a particular issue around the operation of the intent to comply with TUPE arrangements. Some of the provisions in Clause 17 touch upon this and refer to the fact that the order in relation to schemes can include circumstances where the same or similar effect as the TUPE regulations so far as those regulations do not apply in relation to the transfer are taken up. As a general point, is it the Government’s intention, in so far as they are a participant in this, that where TUPE regulations for some reason do not apply, they would seek to ensure that provisions with the same or similar effect as those regulations would be imported into any scheme of which they would be a party?

As an aside, when the Child Support Agency was being restructured, a key issue was not so much to do with entitlement to pensions, because there was access, but to do with loss of Civil Service status when somebody was going to go into an NDPB. That is an issue. I do not propose an amendment in relation to the Bill, but it was probably the big issue when we were talking about restructuring the Child Support Agency and it could rear its head in these circumstances. I beg to move.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendments 36ZA and 36ZB seek to amend the provisions in the Bill that relate to the making of a scheme to transfer property, rights and liabilities from public authorities to combined authorities. The Bill specifies that where a function of a public authority is to be a function of a combined authority, the property, rights and liabilities of the public authority can be transferred to the combined authority. These amendments seek to change this by removing from the Bill the provisions that allow for the transfer of public authority liabilities.

These amendments would prevent liabilities from being transferred from a public authority to a combined authority. Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State, by order, to confer on a combined authority powers exercised by a public authority. If functions are transferred, there may be some instances where assets, property, rights and liabilities should also be transferred to the combined authority in order for it to be able to exercise these functions.

As we have discussed, the whole Bill is enabling legislation. No combined authority will be forced to take on powers it does not wish to have, nor will a combined authority be forced to take on a public authority’s property, rights or liabilities. An existing combined authority must consent before such transfer can take place, and in the case of a new combined authority, the appropriate local authorities seeking to take on public body functions must have consented to the transfer of the property, rights and liabilities of the public authority. However, there may be times where such a transfer is necessary to give full effect to devolution deals.

Similar transfers of property, rights and liabilities from a local authority to a combined authority are already possible under Section 115 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Such transfers have already happened when establishing combined authorities; for example, when the West Yorkshire combined authority was established the integrated transport authority and the passenger transport executive were both closed, and their functions, assets, liabilities et cetera transferred to the combined authority. This provision purely mirrors the existing provisions by applying the same principles to transfers from public authorities.

The noble Lord asked about TUPE. The tradition and past practice is that when transferring functions within the public sector, TUPE applies, and it always has up to now. I hope that with this explanation the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. As I explained, the technical wording was simply to get a debate on this issue. I am grateful for that response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we have considerable sympathy with the thinking behind both amendments from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. They touch upon one of the most serious issues that confront our society—our housing crisis— which must engage the action of central government and local authorities. It is also prescient, given concerns expressed in the press this morning about the figures for child poverty rising for the first time in a decade. We know that the lack of affordable housing is a key driver of homelessness and that homelessness inevitably sits at the centre of disadvantage and deprivation. The major influences on a child’s life—family income, effective parenting and a secure environment—are all directly or indirectly influenced by a family’s housing conditions.

The question posed by these two amendments is what the role of a combined authority should be in addressing our housing crisis and reducing homelessness. There certainly could and should be a role, and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority has shown the way. In its case, the elected mayor has control of a £300 million housing investment fund and powers over strategic planning, including the power to create a statutory spatial strategy for the CA area. There are somewhat convoluted arrangements for administration of the housing investment fund, but it has the prospect of delivering 10,000 to 15,000 homes over the period—a real contribution. Powers to create a spatial strategy for the area are particularly useful, given the demise, as my noble friend Lord Beecham said, of the former regional spatial strategies and the weakness of the duty to co-operate.

There are two issues, however, with the noble Earl’s amendments. Indeed, all noble Lords who have spoken today have, in one way or another, touched upon those issues. We should be mindful of the current requirement for local authorities to ensure that local plans meet the assessed needs for both affordable and market housing and that neighbourhood plans can supplement this. Further, important legislation is already in force that places a general duty on housing authorities to tackle homelessness, however difficult that is in the current circumstances. We would not wish to undermine these important responsibilities and local priorities, but it might well be appropriate to build on these requirements at an overarching strategic level. One way or another, those points were made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and my noble friends Lord Beecham and Lady Hollis.

Certainly the prospect of a combined authority having spatial planning powers across an area could be a considerable advantage in creating a coherent housing framework. However—I am sure that the Minister will make this point—the approach suggested is prescriptive. Doubtless it will be said that there is nothing to prevent a combined authority seeking these powers by agreement, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that the Government would not be shy of agreeing such arrangements.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendments 36A and 36B would insert two new clauses into the Bill that place statutory duties on the Secretary of State to undertake reviews of the advantages and disadvantages of placing a duty on combined authorities to reduce the numbers of homeless children and families in housing need, and give combined authorities responsibility for affordable housing in their area and associated borrowing powers. These amendments would also require the Secretary of State to lay the report of these reviews under the clauses before both Houses of Parliament.

At the outset, I must say that housing is a priority for this Government. In our manifesto, we committed to building 200,000 starter homes and more affordable housing. We are putting in place £38 billion of public and private sector investment to help ensure that 275,000 new affordable homes are provided between 2015 and 2020. This means that we will build more new affordable homes than during any equivalent period in the last twenty years.

A couple of noble Lords asked about the definition of “affordable”. The detail is set out in the national policy planning framework, and it is, broadly:

“social rented … and intermediate housing, provided to eligible households whose needs are not met by the market”.

However, within that, there is broad scope around what affordability means in different places to different people.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, these amendments seek in one way or another to provide that in advance of the devolutions being implemented, some form of statement should be published by the Secretary of State or put in the Bill about the range of powers which might be devolved to areas. These are examples of the quite centralist and prescriptive approach so beloved of Governments over the last 150 years, and that is what this Bill precisely seeks to reverse. There will be no prescribed list for local authorities or combined authorities to follow. We want to hear from them; we do not want to tell them what they want or what their plans for growth are. Our approach has been to start a conversation with the areas if they want to talk to us about their aspirations and the powers and budgets they want to have devolved to them to improve their area’s economy, deliver better local public services and build sustainable prosperity.

We want areas to be as ambitious as possible and we want to hear what they want, not what they think we are looking for. That is the whole point of the Bill. We do not have some preordained list of powers which we might devolve, and we do not wish to have in advance any conversations that would set limits or parameters about what may or may not be devolved or what might be an initial priority for devolution.

Noble Lords will be aware of the Manchester deal, and we have talked at length about some of the powers that Manchester wishes to see devolved. Perhaps that provides ideas for other authorities to move forward and the plans might offer them some inspiration, but we do not wish to impose the Manchester plan for growth on the Cornwall plan for growth or, indeed, the one for Norwich. We are very clear about that.

I am afraid that these amendments are simply out of step with the whole approach that this Bill is designed to deliver: agreeing bespoke devolution deals which enable individual areas to realise their potential and make the greatest possible contribution to the success of the UK as it responds to global economic opportunities and the challenges we all face.

I want to make two points. The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, or the noble Lord, Lord Warner, made a point about local authorities being frightened that services they deliver as local authorities could be taken away—the difference between the strategic direction and the local direction of a council. That is a very important point to make because when combined authorities are thinking about their ambitions and plans, they must be focused on the big strategic issues that will benefit from the opportunity of scale across a number of local authorities.

The other point I want to deal with is that of capacity, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. In a sense we are already dealing with combined authorities because we are having conversations, and obviously the Greater Manchester devolution deal took place last November, so we will continue with that. But when consulting the combined authorities on powers, their capacity to take on functions will also need to be addressed. A critical issue in the conversation with combined authorities will be to ensure that they have the capacity to deal with the matters that they wish to take on. If they are ambitious for powers to be devolved to them, they will need to be clear in the proposal they bring to us on the governance arrangements for managing and handling the power they want and how they will have the capacity to do so. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. Every noble Lord has supported these amendments with the exception, unsurprisingly, of the Minister. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that there is no fix on the timing of Amendment 36C if there are benefits in being flexible, or indeed on expanding the list. I would be happy to talk about that when we return to this matter, as we certainly will.

My noble friend Lord Warner made an important point about engaging health economies where they are holding back at the moment—being proactive and prodding them into focusing and engaging. The amendments have had the strong support of my noble friend Lord Woolmer, who stressed the importance of skills and the need to be strategic in these things.

I should say to the Minister that I am not surprised at the response because it is what we have been given throughout our consideration of the Bill: “This is a broad framework and we are not going to tell anyone to do anything; we are happy to sit back and have conversations”. In a sense that is government by vacuum, with no lists, preconceptions or limits being set. That cannot be good enough. If the Government are not themselves now planning how to deal with the consequences of what might happen after devolution, it would seem that they are being derelict. None of this forces anyone to do any particular thing, apart from the Government saying, “Actually, get off your backsides and make this work. Do something proactive to engage with combined authorities so that they know what is on offer and encourage them into deals”. Otherwise, there will simply be cosy conversations on an unplanned basis, and a favoured few authorities may well get the nod of approval from the Government. But the general thrust of our position is that we want devolution to work across the board in England on a proactive basis. That is what our amendments are designed to help achieve.

I will withdraw the amendments today, but I have absolutely no doubt that we are going to return to this issue in one form or another because it is at the heart of whether we believe that devolution should work across the board and we should want it to happen, or whether we think that it is a question of waiting to see what washes over us in due course. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting short debate. Our starting point is to favour the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh for there to be an independent panel. I accept that there are issues. The noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Heseltine, made points about making sure that it is truly independent, and there is no reason why that independence could not take account of international experience as well. A potential issue about the linkage is that the role of the mayor will not necessarily be constant and homogenous between different authorities. Sometimes the function of the mayor might be the full Monty, as it were, but sometimes it might be much less so. Therefore, we are going to have to have some form of assessment if we are going to do that fairly. It is reasonable for there to be further thinking around this.

Linking pay to the pay of the highest-paid leader of a constituent council could be a route, although in a sense what this amendment says is, “The Secretary of State decides but it must be no larger than”. That seems to put the onus back on the Secretary of State, so the principle we would support is some independent assessment, taking account of the real value of the job. I entirely accept that this would be a very powerful and important job.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I appreciate the intentions behind these amendments, and noble Lords have made very valid points. I have just asked for some comparator salaries for city or conurbation mayors. The London mayor earns nearly £144,000 a year, and the Bristol mayor earns nearly £66,000.

There are already statutes in place regarding independent remuneration panels and the remuneration of elected members. A combined authority’s constituent councils are required by the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 to establish and maintain independent remuneration panels which make recommendations to local authorities regarding the remuneration of elected members to which local authorities have to have regard. To take my noble friend Lord Heseltine’s point, there is nothing to stop them making international comparisons.

It would seem that to make provisions for a combined authority to establish its own independent remuneration committee merely to determine the remuneration of the elected mayor would be introducing an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and would take away some of the flexibility that this Bill offers to those areas that seek to establish a combined authority. Further legislation, the Local Transport Act 2008, enables the Secretary of State to make provisions about the remuneration of, and pensions or allowances payable to or in respect of, any member of the combined authority. That includes making provision about the remuneration—that is, the allowances—of a metro mayor, including the part to be played in setting those allowances by independent remuneration panels in the combined authority’s area. As this power already exists, we consider it unnecessary to make further regulations in connection with the remuneration of elected members. With those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Woolmer and Lord Smith for basically setting out our position on these amendments. We do not believe they are appropriate. It seems to me the key point that has been made is that you cannot draw a parallel between the London model and where we are with these combined authorities because you have members of the combined authorities—not via this election process but directly representing the constituency authorities—who are involved in holding an elected mayor to account, if there is one, through the two-thirds rule on the budget et cetera, but who collectively, as my noble friend said, have functions for which they are responsible. If you go down the route of adding to those elected members, what precisely is the role of those members in comparison with the members who are already there by virtue of the indirect arrangement? Therefore, I do not think that the model fits and it is unhelpful to try to make it fit.

There are other issues as well, perhaps of less consequence, but the proposal is for an assembly only for mayoral combined authorities. What about other combined authorities if there are no mayoral functions? They would still possibly have the same range of functions but this solution is not offered here. The assembly seems to be offered whatever level of devolution is given to the mayor. In some cases there may be full-blown powers for the mayor, including in PCC matters; in others that is not so, so to have the same arrangement in each case—or to propose it—does not seem to make sense either. However, that is not the substantive point. I think the substantive point is that made by my noble friends.

In terms of the numbers, as we heard, in Manchester’s case we could go from 11 members at the moment, including the mayor, up to 61, whereas London, as we know, has only 25. I appreciate that those figures could be adjusted but it is still a big increase. What is the role of those members who are going to come through the system on this basis? Are they just there to scrutinise? How does their role differ from that of the other combined authority members?

If you look at the number of combined authorities which may be created—some are already under way—there is Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, Merseyside, Tyne and Wear, and South Yorkshire, and there are prospects for east Midlands, south Hampshire, Bristol and Leicester. Who else might follow? How many assemblies are we seeking to assemble here? As I said earlier, we have a proliferation of voting systems: first past the post for the council elections; a single transferable vote proposed for the assembly; and the supplementary vote for mayors. I am sure the electorate will be able to cope with that over time but it does not seem to me a great example of clarity and linking with the electorate.

Others have already mentioned the fact that there is an overview and scrutiny committee but that is not the only way that scrutiny is exercised. As we know—the Manchester agreement sets this out very clearly—combined authority members have a role of potentially restraining the mayor.

I wish to make a broad point. I can understand Liberal Democrats having a particular view on the voting system. They may think that it is unfair and that it does not produce a proportional outcome. I make no particular comment on that. However, it seems to me wrong to potentially fetter the situation that we are talking about here with a proposal just to balance up for doing something which in their eyes may seem to be a deficit in the arrangements that would otherwise be in place. It seems to me wrong to use this process for those purposes. So, for a variety of reasons, I do not think this is the right way to go and we certainly will not support it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for some very measured and sensible comments on these amendments. First, I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on the DPRR committee. As I indicated earlier, we will respond before the end of the Committee stage, which is next Monday. The committee has recommended that the LRO be subject to the super-affirmative resolution procedure. With this procedure, the expectation must be that the LRO will not come into force, if Parliament approves it, until late 2015. However, as I have already indicated, we are now seriously recommending including the LRO provision in the Bill—so I hope that that helps him—and it will overcome the difficulties identified by the Delegated Powers Committee.

Amendment 14 provides that an elected assembly must form part of a combined authority. It seeks to insert into the Bill new Schedule 5BA, which provides that the functions and procedure of the elected assembly are the same as those for the London Assembly. I understand the intention behind the amendment. First and foremost, I understand that those who are proposing this amendment want a bigger role for the ballot box. They see that this is provided in the London mayoral model, where there is an assembly that holds the mayor to account.

However, London is unique. Greater Manchester is unique. Greater Manchester is not London and London is not Greater Manchester. This is not in the civil servants’ notes. All of us from Greater Manchester are very clear about that point and clear that we do not want additional tiers of government. I am confident that other local areas probably feel the same. We do not want to create additional bureaucracy, which would cost the taxpayer money. The devolution of powers to areas will instead create efficiencies and allow each area to find its own creative solutions to the particular challenges it faces in securing long-term sustainable growth.

In order to hold the mayor and combined authority to account for their decisions and actions, the Bill provides that all combined authorities must have one or more overview and scrutiny committee drawn from the members of the constituent councils. Like the London Assembly, these overview and scrutiny committees can require the mayor, officers and members to attend their meetings and answer questions. I am sure that we will discuss the role of scrutiny more fully when we examine the later clauses of the Bill. We are determined to ensure that scrutiny is as strong and robust as it can be. That scrutiny provides the real protection against the fears of a one-party state, and must be seen to be effective, transparent and independent so as to maintain public confidence in the institutions and governance arrangements to which we will be devolving wide-ranging powers. I reiterate my earlier offer—because the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was on his way out of the door when I was making it—about any suggestions that noble Lords might wish to make on how we ensure that scrutiny is as robust as possible.

However, we do not want, and I am convinced that few in our cities and counties will want, a new tier of government—a new tier of politicians. The experience of the metropolitan county councils, which my noble friend Lord Heseltine abolished through the legislation he introduced, shows the problems and weaknesses of having inevitably competing tiers of politicians. That said, I believe that with the right legislative framework for allowing areas to draw together scrutiny committees with a broad membership and strong powers, the future governance arrangements can indeed fulfil the aims of those proposing these amendments that public confidence will be maintained and, more importantly, that devolution will work, benefiting the local communities that it serves.

Amendment 17 sets out the electoral arrangements for an elected assembly, using a single transferable vote model. This is a complex electoral system that would be costly and time-consuming to implement. As noble Lords have pointed out, we would have a very confusing array of arrangements for local elections. Introducing STV for all local elections would require significant changes to existing electoral boundaries and could not be introduced, even if it were desirable, within any short timescale.

Amendments 25 and 26 would require the assembly to resolve, by a simple majority,

“for the relevant combined authority to enable the mayor to take on the functions of a police and crime commissioner for that area”.

Notwithstanding the explanations I have already given as to why we would not want there to be an elected assembly for a mayoral combined authority, we consider that there is no need to require any additional body to approve the transfer of police functions to the mayor. The transfer of police and crime commissioner functions to the mayor forms part of the devolution deal and is actually analogous to the situation in London. The Bill requires that all the appropriate authorities in an area would have to give consent before an order to transfer police and crime commissioner functions could be made. Hence we are clear that the transfer of PCC functions will be a matter on which the combined authority and/or its constituent councils must agree.

I can also reassure noble Lords that in order for the mayor of a combined authority area to take on PCC functions, the Secretary of State will be required to lay an order setting out the detail of how PCC functions will be transferred to the mayor, and Parliament will have the opportunity to fully consider this. With these explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it would be entirely between the Secretary of State and those local authorities. I am sure that he would have in mind precisely what powers they wanted devolved and the level of accountability that that would require. I hope that answers the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Can I come back on the question posed by my noble friend Lady Hollis? It seems to me that the opportunity for the Secretary of State to provide for there to be a mayor relates to a combined authority, and the authority for that comes in Clause 1 of the Bill. The arrangements that my noble friend may have been talking about would not necessarily have involved a combined authority—it might be some other configuration of councils—and I do not think that the power to cause there to be an elected mayor rests in Clause 10.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government would not seek to impose a metro mayor, as I have repeated several times. That combined authority would have a discussion about what powers it sought to be devolved and what form of governance it wished to introduce. It would have a metro mayor only if there were agreement between that local group of authorities and the Secretary of State. Nothing would be imposed.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am sorry to come back on this but it is an important issue that we need to get clear. Let me go back to what the Minister James Wharton said in the Westminster Hall debate:

“If they want the Manchester model—the exciting package of powers that we are already delivering to the Greater Manchester area—a mayor will be a requirement of it. We in the Government believe that that needs to happen, and we will insist on it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/6/15; col. 79WH.]

I accept that, if the alternative is no deal at all, it could be argued that there is not an insistence. However, it seems to me that it is very clear from the position of the Minister at the other end that the Government will insist on it in certain circumstances. We are still trying to fathom what “less” will be required for that insistence not to take place. Surely it is clear that there is an insistence if an area wants a deal.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government certainly would want it, but with the agreement of those local authorities. Greater Manchester has not had a mayor imposed upon it; it has agreed that a metro mayor will be the accountable person.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendments 4 to 7 address the role of a mayor in the combined authority and I shall take each amendment in turn. Amendment 4 sets out on the face of the Bill that the introduction of a mayor for a combined authority area would not be a precondition for the transfer of functions to combined authorities. The Government’s policy is to devolve far-reaching powers to local areas and is clear that, if areas are to have such powers, they must adopt strong governance and accountability arrangements. We want to hear from areas what their proposals are, what powers and budgets they want devolved to them and what governance arrangements they think are needed to support those powers and budgets.

My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made clear in his speech in Greater Manchester on 14 May that:

“We will transfer major powers only to those cities who choose to have a directly elected metro-wide mayor”.

This amendment would frustrate the Government’s announced policy. My noble friend Lord Heseltine has made the point well with examples from other cities around the world. Where such powers are conferred on an area, there needs to be a single point of accountability. People need to be clear about who is responsible for decisions affecting their day-to-day lives, whom to look to when actions are needed and who is to address things that have gone wrong. That we have this offer most certainly does not preclude us from engaging with all areas to consider their proposals for devolution. We are happy to have conversations with any area. The Bill does not limit in any way the devolution proposals that areas can make and the Government will consider any and all proposals from cities, counties and towns for greater local powers.

Amendment 5 seeks to clarify that the mayor, who will be the chair of the combined authority, would not have the automatic right to a casting vote in the process of decision-making in the combined authority. I agree with noble Lords that it is not for the Government to prescribe whether a metro mayor would or would not have a casting vote or second vote. This Bill is an enabling Bill. It does not set out the detailed constitutional arrangements for the mayoral combined authority. It is for areas to decide what voting arrangements would be most appropriate to provide strong, accountable and transparent governance. While the mayor will be the directly elected figurehead for the area and will chair the combined authority, it does not follow that they should necessarily have a casting vote within the combined authority. Indeed, none of the current combined authorities, when they were formed by order, decided to give the chair or vice-chair a casting vote in decision-making. In summary, the Bill as it stands does not give the mayor or the chair of a combined authority the right to a casting vote.

Amendments 6 and 7 seek to amend Section 107A(7) of the 2009 Act to allow the Secretary of State to make a further order under that section to revoke the post of mayor for a combined authority, following a request by the combined authority. As the Bill stands, the office of mayor can be revoked only if an order is made to abolish the combined authority itself under the existing powers in the 2009 Act. This is to ensure that where a devolution deal including a mayor is made with the agreement of the authorities involved, and major powers are devolved, a mayor will be present to provide the powerful point of accountability. It ensures that these governance arrangements cannot then be removed, leaving the area with the powers but without sufficient and robust accountability. Should an area wish to tear up its deal—we would hope that no area would ever wish to do so, given that it would be detrimental to the people and businesses of the area—this Bill allows for the mayor, the combined authority and the deal to be abolished. I cannot envisage that this situation would ever arise or that local leadership would allow it to happen.

With those assurances, I hope that noble Lords will agree that these amendments are not necessary.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response to the debate and other noble Lords who have participated. I think that we have probably given this issue airing enough for tonight, although no doubt we will return to at least part of it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Greater Manchester: New Deal

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 8th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for his kind words. Like him, I canvassed and campaigned up and down the country. It was good to see the real world of the north of England. I take his point about our counties and what they have to offer. Each county is different, and each group of counties will be different, and the Government are certainly open to listening to any suggestions that they bring forward.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, we support the Greater Manchester devolution deal. In a recent speech, the Chancellor of the Exchequer talked about conversations of a serious nature for the devolution of powers and budgets for any city that wants an elected mayor. Are there any other conversations about serious devolution going on at the moment with those who do not want an elected mayor?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there are certainly lots of conversations going on at the moment. There is no one common deal to suit everyone. The Government are very keen to hear from cities, counties and rural areas and any combination of the above.

Housing: Brownfield Sites

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I certainly appreciate the issues in the north-west of England. I am sure that the noble Lord would join me in welcoming the initiative by the previous leader of Pendle Council, Councillor Joe Cooney, to have a £1.5 million brownfield investment fund to address some of those issues around clearing sites in order to build housing.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the brownfield regeneration fund, which of course is to be funded by requiring local authorities to sell their most expensive council houses as they become vacant. The proceeds of these sales are also earmarked for the right-to-buy discounts for housing associations and to replace the houses that are sold. It is understood that “expensive” properties for this purpose are to be the most expensive one-third of properties with the same number of bedrooms. Will this be determined on a national, regional or more local basis, and will it require the sale of council houses in rural areas?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords agree with me that councils have an obligation to manage their assets, and divesting themselves of some of their most expensive assets obviously allows them to invest in housing to that end. I will get back to the noble Lord on his point about rural housing.