Lord McKenzie of Luton
Main Page: Lord McKenzie of Luton (Labour - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts
Lord Scriven
I understand what the noble Lord says, but the Bill says that when there is disagreement you would be pushing for unitary authorities or an authority—one or more—in an area where that might not be needed. That is what Amendment 44L would dictate would happen if there was no agreement. It could be one unitary or two or three unitary authorities within the area. The principle of having an amendment that forces unitary authorities on areas that do not want them is not in the spirit of how I see devolution.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, we have Amendments 44G and 45A in this group, to which I shall speak first. Amendment 44G is an attempt to address in part the concerns expressed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee at paragraph 17 of its first report this Session. Again drawing attention to the wide powers in Clause 10, the committee states:
“We are not convinced that requiring the consent of the local authorities affected is by itself a sufficient control over the very wide powers conferred by clause 10. In our view the delegation is inappropriate without the exercise of the powers being made subject to similar constraints and protections as those which apply to the establishment of a combined authority under Part 6 of the 2009 Act”.
The amendment that we are talking about requires that when exercising the power under Clause 10 the Secretary of State must,
“reflect the identities and interests of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local government”.
It is difficult to see why the Government should object to any of that. Since then, and only today, just before the Committee met, we had the opportunity to see the Government’s reply to the committee’s deliberations, in which the Minister says that these regulations are not of themselves establishing new structures or governance arrangements but modifying where all the councils concerned consent to processes for merging authorities, creating unitary authorities and reducing the number of councillors to fast-track these processes. This is not a sufficient distinction to say that we should eschew the recognition that these processes should reflect the identities and interests of local government.
Amendment 45A is also addressed by the DPRR report and would remove the subsection that removes the denial of the hybrid procedure. We know that this is not unusual in legislation. Indeed, in the case of Ebbsfleet, for a limited period, with our reluctant agreement, it was instigated, but there is normally, surely, an alternative mandatory consultation process that is laid down as a substitute. That is what happened in the case of Ebbsfleet. Where is the process in that situation? On what basis is the hybrid instrument process, if applicable, to be denied if there is no alternative procedure on offer?
Amendment 44F, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seems entirely reasonable to us, and the Minister may say whether it is necessary to provide specifically for this in legislation. Are not associate membership arrangements already in operation in certain circumstances?
Amendment 46A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in part mirrors an early amendment that we tabled. We have no great objection to the establishment of an independent commission to review and advise on the progress of devolution, but we need to be mindful of not creating another tier of bureaucracy and a process that might drive uniformity on these matters. My noble friend Lady Royall is right to focus on how devolution is working for communities and individuals. Putting decision-making and policy formation closer to communities and individuals and getting their engagement is one of the fundamental reasons for embarking on this process, or should be. Of course, it will be an evolving process and nowhere near complete in six months, although we need to give it impetus from the beginning.
As for the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Liddle, I fully understand the desire to have a single-tier or unitary authority. I know that in our own local case in Luton it has transformed the opportunity to deliver and join up services in the town. The difficulty that we face, whether it is a county council seeking unitary status or the reverse, is that just one council holding out and not agreeing negates the opportunity of Clause 10, but I say to my noble friend that it operates in two directions. If our noble friend Lady Hollis were here she would say in no uncertain terms that having the need for unanimity has destroyed the opportunity for Norwich to get unitary status.
I think I may have a way through this, and perhaps the Minister might comment. I am not sure that the provisions are still in operation, but about six years ago there were successful attempts to get unitary status for Exeter and Norwich. The enlightened Government of the day supported it, but unfortunately it was judicially reviewed, and when the coalition Government—the coalition of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives—came in they overturned the decision. There is a serious point here: there are big towns and significant cities, such as Cambridge, Norwich and Exeter, that believe that any decent economic analysis shows that they can deliver more effectively for their communities if they are part of a unitary authority. In a sense, my noble friend’s amendment to deny the need for unanimity would have its problem in one direction or the other.
I entirely accept the point that we would not want to leave it up to the Secretary of State in any unfettered way, but should we not be thinking perhaps of establishing some criteria such as those that were certainly applicable at that time, as I recall: an assessment of whether the cities involved could benefit from unitary status and whether it added value to their communities? Certainly, that was the initial assessment in the case of Norwich and Exeter. Perhaps revisiting some such criteria, if those procedures are not still around, might be worth while. I accept entirely that devolution to county regions is party policy, and heaven forfend that I should not support party policy. We can see the benefit of unitary status for counties, but it is a two-way street and it can have an impact in the other direction.
My noble friend referred to “tiny district councils” being largely powerless, but they are seemingly not so powerless when they can stop a unitary authority. However, we are not talking about tiny district councils; we are talking about significant district councils that are being denied the opportunity of unitary status and all that that could bring, just as it could to a unitary county council in Cumbria.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds (Lab)
My Lords, I will address this issue in relation to combined authorities and take up the points raised by my noble friend Lady Royall. In relation to combined authorities, in reality a lot of the deals are being done in discussions between leaders of authorities, the department and the Treasury. There is a danger of a democratic deficit: that is, the deals that are being done are not necessarily devolution with the wholesale endorsement and support of the wider population. They are being done behind closed doors, with detailed and close negotiations, and afterwards people are being invited to accept that—indeed, not only to accept that but to accept an elected mayor, which in some cases fairly recently they have rejected.
So there is a problem: in order to make haste with the underlying drive of this legislation, there is a strong temptation to consult and persuade people after the event rather than beforehand. That is probably inevitable. However, I say to my colleagues, certainly in my part of the world, that ensuring that people accept this, agree with it and are enthusiastic about it will be an enormous job. They will be faced by what is pretty well a take it or leave it situation. They will not have played a great part in this. Of course, their elected representatives will have done—that is, indirect democracy—but that does not necessarily mean that people at large will have done. I said earlier that I am very enthusiastic about a combined authority for the whole of Yorkshire, which has 5 million people. However, it is enormously difficult to involve 5 million people beforehand and to find out whether they agree. Indeed, there will always be people who strongly disagree.
Therefore, there is a problem here that not merely the leaders of authorities but government Ministers have to deal with. To say to people, “We’ve done a deal behind closed doors and this is what the devolution package looks like”, is hardly taking people with us. I say to my colleagues around Yorkshire—we have the former leader of Sheffield here—that there will be a big job to do in making the move from doing a deal with the Government to forming a large combined authority and it being something that people are enthusiastic about. I hope that in the fullness of time this will have the enthusiastic endorsement of the wider electorate and that they will be given an opportunity to express their opinion at the ballot box. There is no suggestion that there should be a referendum on a large combined authority or on a mayor, so there will be, in my terms, a democratic deficit. People will have to work hard to ensure that there is gradual and significant support for the driving aim of this legislation in the large metropolitan areas.
“Devolution in London
(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish a report on a greater devolution of powers in London, including on whether to make provision for the Secretary of State to—
(a) transfer a public authority function to a joint committee of London councils, and(b) establish a joint board between London boroughs and the Mayor of London to support further devolution in London.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this issue was brought before us by London Councils—I am grateful for its briefing. This is by way of a holding amendment, because of the time involved. Subject to the debate this evening, we envisage a more specific amendment on Report.
Over the past year it is reported that London government—London boroughs and the Mayor of London—have worked to develop a proposition for devolution in London. From this joint work it has emerged that further devolution will ideally require strengthened governance arrangements at the pan-London and sub-regional levels, without creating a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy. The Bill represents a welcome step towards greater devolution across the country but as yet does not provide a direct route to secure the statutory underpinning for the strengthened arrangements that are believed to be necessary for London. Therefore, London Councils firmly supports the proposed new clause, as it believes that it not only speaks directly to its concerns but provides a framework for developing robust governance arrangements in the capital that support further devolution to London at a pan-London and sub-regional level.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I am very happy to use this probing amendment to set out how I see the position in relation to London. I did indeed say at Second Reading that there was nothing to preclude London boroughs or the GLA from coming forward. Perhaps I will expand on that slightly this evening. It is for the London mayor and the boroughs to continue to work together and to agree proposals, which the noble Lord tells me are ready, for greater devolution of powers to London. These could include provision to transfer public authority functions to a joint committee of councils or the establishment of a joint board between the boroughs and the mayor. We will consider whatever the mayor and London boroughs wish to propose, and no doubt they will be making a strong case as to how any proposal they make would provide better outcomes for Londoners. As with any other area, we are ready to have conversations with them, and look forward to those proposals coming forward.
The amendment, however, would turn the process on its head, because it would be the Secretary of State who kicked things off with his report. This is not the approach that we want to follow, as I am sure noble Lords will have established by now, because we believe that such an approach is far less likely to deliver genuine and effective devolution that will improve to the greatest extent the outcomes places face and the economic performance of particular areas.
I hope that on that note the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for his support for this amendment and to the Minister for her reply. If I understood it, I think she was saying that under what is proposed it will be perfectly feasible that the boroughs and the GLA et cetera simply need to come forward and make their case. However, is she saying that what is sought under the new arrangements does not require any change to primary legislation? That is the issue here. Perhaps she could just answer that specifically.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as far as I am aware, it does not. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the manifesto commitments on further devolution to the London mayor as well. I hope that that reassures noble Lords.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful for that and think that I am reassured by it. I think that it needs a quieter reading than at this hour—perhaps in the morning on the train. If, effectively, it does not need primary legislative change, that is fine. I think that we still have scope to bring something more specific back at Report if that proves not to be the case. I know that the Minister is stacking up lots of meetings at the moment, but it would be very helpful to have a specific meeting with London Councils, to make sure that the case it is making is fully heard and that it understands the technical position that she has outlined.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, before amendments are withdrawn et cetera, I can confirm that, and have actually already started to have a conversation with one London authority.