Commons Chamber

Monday 15th December 2025

(began 1 month, 2 weeks ago)

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None Portrait Q1. What steps he is taking through defence spending to help increase economic growth. (906891)
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None Portrait Q4. What steps his Department is taking to increase the speed of the development and adoption of uncrewed defence systems. (906894)
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Question number four, please, Mr. Speaker.
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None Portrait Q5. What steps he is taking to improve support for female veterans. (906895)
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Amanda Martin five Mr Speaker.
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None Portrait Q7. What steps he is taking to ensure that veterans receive adequate support after leaving the armed forces. (906897)
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Liz Jarvis seven Mr Speaker you.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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Speaker, to ask the Secretary of State if he'll make a statement to State if he'll make a statement to the House on winter preparedness in the NHS. >> Secretary of State.

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Secretary of State. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The NHS national medical director says, and I quote, this unprecedented wave of I quote, this unprecedented wave of super flu is leaving the NHS facing a worst case scenario. This is backed up by the data. On any given day last week, an average of 2500 patients were in hospital beds, a 55% increase on the week before and almost double the numbers from 2023. 106 flu patients are in intensive care, compared to 69 the previous week.

There are 1300 more staff than the week before, and the number of calls received by NHS 111 last week was 446,000, 8% higher than this time last year. It is clear from both the NHS and Ukhsa data that there is a real risk for the NHS and for patients, and it is at this moment of maximum danger that the BMA has chosen to go ahead with Christmas strikes, when it will inflict the greatest level of damage on the NHS. The BMA said this dispute was about pay, but we gave them a 28.9% pay rise.

Then they said it was also about jobs, so I offered a deal to halve the competition for jobs to less than two applicants per post. It is now clear what these strikes are really about. The BMA's fantasy demand for another 26% pay rise, on top of the 28.9% they have already received. I also offered to extend the BMA strike mandate so they could postpone this action and go ahead once flu has subsided. The fact they also rejected that offer shows a shocking disregard for patient safety.

Since this strike represents a different magnitude of risk to previous industrial action, I am appealing to ordinary resident doctors to ignore the BMA strike and go to work this week, abandoning patients in their hour of greatest need goes against everything a career in medicine is meant to be about. The entire focus of my department and the NHS team is now on getting the health service through the double whammy of flu and strikes. We've already vaccinated 17 million people, 170,000 more than last year, and 60,000 more NHS staff.

We've invested in 500 new ambulances, 40 new same day emergency care and urgent treatment centres and 15 mental health crisis assessment centres. The NHS will also be recalling resident doctors to work in emergency situations, and we will not tolerate the dangerous attempts to block these requests that we've seen from the BMA in the past. I'm proud of the way the NHS team has pulled together through strike action in the past, and I know they will move heaven and earth to keep patients as safe as they can this winter.

I'm just appalled that they are having to do so without the support of their colleagues in the BMA.
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Stuart Andrew Portrait Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)
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Stuart Andrew thank you, Mr. Speaker. This winter, a serious flu Speaker. This winter, a serious flu wave and rising RSV infections are pushing the NHS to its limits. Flu admissions, as we heard, are up 55% in a week. RSV cases are rising, especially in older people. But the government failed to prepare, as we pointed out earlier in the year. In July, the health secretary accepted Jcvi advice to expand the RSV vaccine to over 80s. That expansion seems to have been quietly dropped.

Flu vaccine uptake remains dangerously low, with fewer than 30% of some key groups vaccinated. Most worryingly, this does include NHS staff who are going off sick because of flu, adding to staffing pressures. Delayed discharges are worsening 19,000 beds. More bed days have been lost this year. Still, there is no winter discharge plan, no new funding and no clarity. And today, yes, resident doctors confirmed further strike action next week. That will add pressure to a system already under significant strain.

And that is why we would ban strike action. But at the same time, this government is literally making it easier for unions through their Employment Rights Bill when the NHS is under this level of pressure. Families deserve the reassurance that care will be there when they need it. So I ask the Secretary of State will he now publish the government's plan for managing winter pressures, including delayed discharges and emergency care? And given he is worried about a double whammy of rising flu cases in a strike, what extra resources is he providing? And if he isn't, where is the money coming from? What action will he take to ensure RSV vaccine access for older people? And what will he do to raise flu vaccine uptake in vulnerable groups, and in particular in NHS staff? Mr.

speaker, families are frightened. Some are already grieving. This crisis was not inevitable, but the government's failure to prepare has made it much worse.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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So mistake. >> So mistake. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will ignore the political nonsense about banning strikes and clamping down on trade unions. I will, however, take on directly the charge that we haven't prepared for this winter. We've delivered over 17 million flu vaccinations this session. Hundreds of thousands more than this time last year, and 60,000 more NHS staff than last year are also getting their jab. We are on track to deliver the five percentage point increase in flu vaccine uptake in healthcare workers, as set out in our urgent and emergency care plan on children and young people.

Half a million 2 to 3 year olds have been vaccinated. Same as last year, 3.6 million school aged children have been vaccinated, up 100,000 on last year. And we'll be going back to schools to do repeat visits in those areas where uptake within schools has not been as high as we would like for, for care home residents and flu vaccination uptake is 71%. We're on track to meet the RSV uptake target for 2526. In the published Urgent and Emergency Care plan.

So we are doing a lot on the vaccination front to prepare. In fact, on winter planning more generally, we started earlier and did more than ever to prepare for this winter. We had stress tested winter plans, trust by trust. Local NHS leaders ran scenario based exercises, including managing surges in demand and responding to virus outbreaks, to test and strengthen their winter readiness plans, which are now being put into action with strengthened access by boosting GP access to keep people well and out of hospital through advertising campaigns, new online access routes and more.

GP practices open for longer hours over the Christmas period. We're making sure more people can be seen close to home, which matters because when people can get help early from their GP, they're less likely to end up in A&E. And of course, we're going further to improve our urgent and emergency care performance this winter. That's set out in our urgent and emergency care plan. We're investing almost £450 million into USC this winter, meaning 500 new ambulances on the roads expanding same day, and urgent treatment centres providing targeted support to the most challenged trusts, creating capacity and keeping flow moving by sharing weekly data with trusts.

Encouraging the use of alternative community services. Streamlining in-hospital discharge processes to get patients discharged more quickly from hospital when safe to do so, including joining up the NHS and social care, where relationships between health and social care have been improving year on year. And if I think about where we are this year compared to last year, there has been sustained improvement. So a lot done. More to do, of course. Our job is made harder by strike action. That's why this government is doing everything we possibly can to get the NHS through this winter.

I just wish we were doing it with the BMA rather than against the BMA.
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Jess Brown-Fuller Portrait Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)
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Jess Brown-Fuller.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My constituent Fred is eligible for a flu vaccination but has had his flu vaccination but has had his appointment cancelled three times due to a lack of vaccines in the local area. Pharmacies and GPS are asked to guess what their need will be, sometimes a year in advance and without sight of the Jcvi's eligibility criteria. So naturally, that results in conservative estimates that they don't have waste. Can the Minister outline what emergency measures the government is taking to get additional vaccines to rural and coastal areas like mine, to slow

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down the crisis that we're seeing in our A&E? Can I thank the hon. Member for

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Can I thank the hon. Member for her question? There is no shortage of the vaccine of the vaccine, which is why it's even more frustrating for our constituents frustrating for our constituents and for the hon. Member knowing that there are flu vaccines available, but they're just not in the right place at the right time. the right place at the right time. And I'm extremely sorry to her constituent who suffered that inconvenience and setback three inconvenience and setback three times. She's placed her concerns on the record.

We will look at what's happened in her constituency and look at supplies, and I'll make sure my department works with her to resolve that situation. More generally, where we have seen reports of shortages of supplies caught short, we have acted rapidly caught short, we have acted rapidly to to remedy that situation.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend >> I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. Mr. speaker, I've lost count of the number of times lost count of the number of times I've met with the BMA, personally spoken on the telephone, including as recently as this afternoon with the chair of the Resident Doctors Committee and his predecessors, and of course, we're always willing to consider bringing in people who can help to close the gap between both sides of the table.

In the past, the BMA haven't been too fond of of Acas. We'll let this round of strikes pass. That's our first priority. Now has got to be managing our way through this period and recovering the NHS into the new year. There will then be, by my reckoning, at least six weeks or so without strikes. And of course we will do our best to to resolve the situation with the BMA. I would just say to my hon. Friend, and to the House and to the BMA itself, that there really isn't much further for the government to go.

We have given a 28.9% pay rise already. The BMA wants to talk about future years pay, but we haven't even had a recommendation from the DRB. So I think it's extraordinary that they are out on strike, on pay on. After the 28.9% pay rise on jobs, the BMA pedal to their members. The idea that there were just 4000 extra speciality training places up for grabs and seems completely sideline the point about emergency legislation to deal with UK graduate prioritisation, which is exactly what they'd asked us to do in all of the meetings that I had with them.

And since they have rejected that offer, they shouldn't expect to see the legislation if they want to see the government move forward constructively with them, then they really need to stop striking, stop harming the NHS and maybe start thinking about patients while they're at it.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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and this is the futility of the of the BMA position. The steps we were proposing to take, both through increasing the number of speciality places and also by bringing forward emergency legislation to deal with UK prioritisation, would have reduced the competition ratio from around 4 to 1, where it is today, to less than 2 to 1. That would have kicked in during the current round. We would have been able to bring forward emergency legislation. A new application round in the spring and the BMA have rejected that approach, so we will not proceed on that basis.

It is for the BMA to explain really what their dispute is all about. We were told that it was all about jobs. What it seems to be about in substance is they want a 26% pay rise, in addition to a 28.9% pay rise. I, I think what the BMA is missing is a degree of perspective about not just the state of the public finances, but the pressures on other parts of the NHS and other parts of the public sector. This is a government that is committed to consistently, year on year, improving pay, terms and conditions for staff, but also, crucially, improving the conditions that patients are seen and treated in.

We cannot fix it all all at once. In fact, when this government or previous governments have floated raising extra money, sometimes among the first to complain about the prospect of higher taxes. Our BMA committees, whether on pensions, on or on other issues, it seems their view is that everyone else should pay higher taxes for their higher salaries and and no one else matters. Well, for me, those agenda for change staff who've been left behind are my first priority.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend, and he's absolutely right that often responsible trade unions do think about the wider workforce. They do think about the impact on service users, whether children or other users of public services. And crucially, for most trade unions in this country, strike action is a last resort. I think it is astonishing, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the BMA chose to go on strike after a 28.9% pay rise, well ahead of even the government making any decisions on future year's pay.

And with the government willing to discuss future years pay with the BMA, I think it is extraordinary that BMA have chosen to go on strike after we took action or proposed to take action, I should say, on jobs, including bringing forward legislation, an expedited pace which involved, by the way, making sure the legal advice was watertight. It involved making sure that operationally we could deliver a new application round. It involved working trust by trust to secure the extra training places. It involved working with my counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

So even after all of that effort was strained to bring forward something more quickly for this application round, the BMA rejected it. It is unreasonable and to have rejected the offer of postponing strikes to the New Year on grounds of patient safety and doing the decent thing by their colleagues. I think that was unconscionable.
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None Portrait Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy
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To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the violence against Women and girls strategy.
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Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)
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I call the Minister Jess Phillips. Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Lady for this question. The scale of violence against women and girls in our country is intolerable. This country is intolerable. This government is treating it as a national emergency. Members are aware that we have made an unprecedented commitment to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. This effort will be underpinned by our Violence against women and girls strategy. As I said in my oral statement on the Angiolini inquiry earlier this month, I know there is a great deal of interest in the strategy.

Having lived and breathed this piece of work for many months. The eagerness, eagerness with which colleagues across the House are awaiting its publication is something I welcome, not least because in order to succeed in our mission, we will need everyone playing their part, including members of all political stripes. I can confirm that the strategy will be published this Thursday on the 18th of December, and I look forward to presenting it to the House on that day. I will be very happy to discuss every detail and every policy in our plan, once it has been launched.

Until then, I hope members will bear with me for just a few more days. We have not been sitting idle, however, since the general election, we have taken urgent steps to strengthen the response. We have introduced new protections for stalking victims. We have launched long awaited domestic abuse protection orders. We have increased refuge funding, we have increased helpline funding. We have placed domestic abuse specialists in 999 control rooms in the first five areas. We have begun the process of ending the presumption of contact, something begged for by victims for years.

And we are expanding across the country the support for child victims of trafficking. Trafficking. Because I have a time limit, I won't list the many other things that I could list that have been done not just by the Home Department, but by every government department in this area. So I could really go on. These steps are all having an impact, but to give every woman and girl the safety and security they deserve, a complete reset is needed. And through the strategy, we will go further than ever before in our efforts to deliver real and lasting change and provide every woman and girl across the country with the safety and security that they deserve.
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Marie Goldman Portrait Marie Goldman MP (Chelmsford, Liberal Democrat)
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Marie Goldman thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, I stand here before you today disappointed, disappointed that women and girls continue to be unsafe in Britain in 2025. I'm disappointed that this strategy has been delayed three times this year, when urgent action is clearly needed in this government should not have to be dragged before the house for a UQ for a strategy that should have been published months ago. And I'm disappointed that now it's finally set to be published on Parliament's final sitting day of the year, stakeholders have said the consultation process was inadequate and the strategy feels like an afterthought.

Meanwhile, the Home Secretary has been on the airwaves trailing it without parliamentary scrutiny. Madam Deputy Speaker, 1 in 4 women have experienced domestic abuse. A woman is killed by a man once every three days. Only 2.6% of rape offences result in a charge or summons. These are shocking figures and they are certainly not an afterthought to me, nor to the millions of women and girls in Britain. The police have called this a national emergency and they are right to.

And yet consecutive governments have either sat on their hands or produced vawg strategies that have failed time and time again. As a National Audit Office report showed this year. So I ask the Minister, how will this strategy succeed where others have failed? How will progress towards halving violence against women and girls be measured? What interim targets will be set and what consequences will follow if those targets are missed? And finally, as long as violent, misogynistic content continues to reach children online, this crisis will persist.

Social media companies are failing to enforce their own terms of service, and the Online Safety Act has yet to deliver. What will the Home Secretary do to change that?
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Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)
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Thank you. I feel every moment of the disappointment that the hon. Lady feels about the failures over the years, and I recall whilst working in service during the coalition government that we had to cut our child rape service and get the money from the big lottery, because the state, under an era of austerity under that government, took away the funding that we had used to use to fund a child rape counselling service. So there is many, many years to reset and we have to change decades of the expectation, not decades, actually millennia of the expectation that this violence is just expected.

Women are just meant to expect it. And I went before that, didn't do that reset. And the delay is in. I'm going to do something rare for a government Minister. It is my fault. It is entirely my fault. And that's because at every iteration, it wasn't ambitious enough so I could have come and done it quicker and then it wouldn't have been as good. So I apologise that she has to wait till Christmas, but I would be apologising for decades of failure.

And so what I would say is that the metrics that we will be measured against the plans for how we will be measured will all be released on Thursday. And absolutely the that she will be able to hold me to account. I won't be dragged kicking and screaming. She is welcome to come into my office at any point and have a meeting with me.
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Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers MP (Stockton West, Conservative)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving the House the chance to for giving the House the chance to discuss this important issue that affects the lives of millions of women and girls across the country. women and girls across the country. This issue is a stain on our society, and I am sure that members across the House will support the ambition to halve violence against women and girls. It is for the same reason that I hope the Minister can recognise the work undertaken by the previous government through the Domestic Abuse Act and Related Plan, funded by hundreds of millions of pounds, alongside important changes to legislation in areas such as harassment.

Whilst it is clear that much more still needs to be done, these were critical steps in the right direction. Worryingly, according to data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, sexual offences, rape, stalking and harassment have all increased by between 5 and 9% under this Labour government. This occurred at the same time as the number of police officers has fallen under this government. It demonstrates that despite setting targets and the undoubted will of the Minister to reduce these life altering crimes, there remains a significant gap between ambition and results.

We look forward to seeing the full scope of the strategy, which I'm sure all members would have wished to see sooner. I am sure members would have preferred to hear it in the House rather than the press. I ask the Minister whether there is a plan to identify and build on the measures in the strategy, which are found to be most effective, and also given the government's cuts to police numbers, what will be done to ensure police forces not only have assigned individuals and titles, but that they actually have the volumes of resources needed to tackle violence against women and girls head on.
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Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)
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I thank the hon. Gentleman just to to pick up on a couple of the to to pick up on a couple of the points that he has made with regard to the reduction in police numbers, and I noticed that the Leader of the Opposition cited these numbers, these figures as well, just to be very clear, that 94% of that fall, that in the numbers that have been cited were from March to June of 2024, before the this was elected to Parliament.

So just to be clear on the numbers that we are talking

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about and. Please march in September, the last official record show. Exactly.

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last official record show. Exactly. Oh, Minister Phillips. Okay. Well, look, look. Okay, I

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Okay. Well, look, look. Okay, I may have to stand corrected, but I am. But but all I can say is that am. But but all I can say is that the data on police numbers is that the data on police numbers is that a huge amount of what is being cited is being taken from previous government figures. And look, in my area, we haven't got any up to the, the, the level of police funding that we had in 2010.

So I will not take lectures from the party opposite about the hollowing out of police over their era. I'm afraid if he doesn't like what he hears. So, and with regard to the brilliant work done, the brilliant work done, and a number of previous people who've stood in the same position as me, and I can see one of them on the front bench. But what I would say to the hon. Gentleman is all the way through the Domestic Abuse Act, Ministers from the I was then in opposition.

I would work very closely with them. I can see the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands, who also I worked incredibly close with as an opposition member, to make sure that the domestic abuse bill was good enough. And not once has anyone from the current shadow frontbench ever sought to have a meeting with me about anything they actually want to see in the strategy. They'd be very welcome.
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Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
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I call it Lib Dem spokesperson Max Wilkinson. Max Wilkinson. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Violence against women and girls is a stain on society. I know the Minister shares that passion that we have here and has done so much work herself on it. I want to follow up on some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford, which were perhaps not gone into in the level of detail that we might have hoped for, given the level of briefing to the press on the weekend.

So to ensure that halving violence against women and girls does not become a broken manifesto promise, how will the Home Secretary, how will the Minister measure progress and what consequences will be set if progress is not made quickly enough? That with misogynistic content continuing to spread online, how will Ministers ensure that social media companies are upholding their duty to protect children, particularly when figures such as Andrew Tate, described by the Member for Clacton, who is not in his place as an important voice for men, are so easily accessible.

And now the Minister seems to be somewhat frustrated to be here today to answer this question, we all are. The Home Secretary gave many of the details of her announcements to the press this weekend. Given the seriousness of this issue, and given the fact that we were told that the statement is going to be made on Thursday, the final day before recess, does the Minister think this is an appropriate way to carry out government?
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None Portrait Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if she will make a statement on UK Government actions on the humanitarian crisis in Sudan
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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I congratulate hon. Gentleman on securing this urgent question. Can I start Madam Deputy Speaker with expressing the thoughts of the whole House? Will
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Chris Elmore Portrait Chris Elmore MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Bridgend, Labour)
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be those affected by the horrific anti-Semitic terrorist attack on Bondi Beach yesterday. The Foreign Secretary will address this further at the start of her statement, which follows this UQ a which follows this UQ a humanitarian crisis of the 21st century, 30 million people need life saving aid. 12 million people life saving aid. 12 million people have fled their homes. Women and children are bearing the brunt of the violence. The drone strike on the UN peacekeeping base in Kalgoorlie on Saturday was deplorable and exemplifies how the war is being fought with little regard to civilian life and international law.

The strike killed six Bangladeshi peacekeepers and our thoughts are with their families. British High Commissioner Dhaka has released a statement offering the government's heartfelt condolences to the families of those who tragically lost their lives yesterday and wishing a swift recovery to all those injured. The perpetrators must be held to account. On Friday, the UK announced a package of sanctions targeting four senior commanders from the Rapid Support Forces involved in the horrendous violence in El Fasher. The government will do all it can to exert pressure on those responsible for these atrocities.

The Foreign Secretary is working with her counterparts on three priorities. First, protecting civilians. Second, strengthening humanitarian access. And third, securing an immediate ceasefire and a political process to end the conflict. The war in Sudan was a priority for the foreign Secretary. On a visit to Washington, DC last week, where she discussed these issues with Secretary of State Rubio and senior adviser Boulos. Last week, we stepped up our response to the crisis with an additional £21 million, taking the UK contribution to £146 million.

This year, UK funding will reach more than 800,000 people with life saving aid. This is in addition to our efforts as penholder for Sudan at the United Nations Security Council to call out atrocities committed and pressed for an unimpeded humanitarian access. On the 8th of December, the UK led the UN Security Council consultations on the violence and foreign, where members heard from the senior UN officials on worsening conditions and access challenges. The UK will convene the Security Council again tomorrow to discuss mediation efforts.

We are urgently pressing for a three month humanitarian truce and will do all we can to support and help drive these peace efforts forward alongside the quad, all those with influence over the warring parties must work to stop the suffering, and that must include ending external support for the conflict. In line with the quad statement on the 12th of September, the Foreign Secretary has been clear that the UK will use all diplomatic tools at our disposal to agree a cessation of hostilities and a sustainable end to this conflict, and delivers peace for the Sudanese people.
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Seamus Logan Portrait Seamus Logan MP (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East, Scottish National Party)
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Seamus Logan. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his statement. And I also want to thank the speaker for granting this urgent question today. In fewer urgent question today. In fewer than two months since the RSF captured El Fasher in the 26th of October, the city has been consumed by a killing spree, a series of appalling international war crimes. We have seen reports of relentless assassinations of innocent civilians, with accounts of parents forced to watch the killing of their children, systematic sexual violence including gang rape and satellite imagery exposing blood stained ground and piles of civilian bodies.

Current estimates suggest that 60,000 innocent civilians have been killed, but as many as 150,000 people missing since the takeover. These numbers are likely to be underestimates. Recent sanctions on senior figures in the ISF are welcome, but Madam Deputy Speaker there are areas where I would ask the government to go further. There have been cuts to the UK's Overseas Development Assistance from 0.5% to 0.3%. In addition, recent reports suggest that the Atrocity Prevention Team in the FCDO is reducing and the team who previously worked to monitor global atrocities is being cut.

The UK government refused to contribute to an atrocity prevention programme in Sudan, even after the risk of genocide and mass atrocities became clear. This is indefensible and I want to hear from the Minister why this decision was made. While the announcement of 21 million in additional aid to Sudan is welcome, consistently funded development and prevention aid to relevant countries could prevent the UK forking out millions when future atrocities occur. Madam Deputy Speaker, today's displaced people are tomorrow's asylum seekers. So will the UK government reinstate overseas development aid to Sudan? Will it reconsider its contribution to international atrocity prevention programmes? Madam Deputy Speaker British manufactured weapons are reportedly still being used by the ISF to conduct their horrific massacres allegedly supplied by the UAE.

They are. Will the UK government take action on this and pledge to prevent British weapons falling into the hands of the CSF? Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, it feels as though the UK government are not giving the genocide in Sudan the time it deserves in this chamber. The government have chosen to update the House in Sudan by itself on only one occasion. I therefore ask that the Secretary of State commit to updating the House on their actions in relation to Sudan through a ministerial statement early in the new year.



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Thank you Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his I thank the hon. Gentleman for his further questions. Just on older cuts in Sudan. I'm afraid he isn't correct. The Prime Minister has committed already for the funding committed already for the funding to continue over the next three years to Sudan. So it is not correct to say that they will be correct to say that they will be cuts in terms of Oda and for Sudan in relation to our work in support of the International Criminal of the International Criminal Court's active investigations into the situation in Sudan.

That support continues to be the case in relation to arms. Can I say to the House that we take very seriously allegations that UK made equipment may have been transferred to Tatton, in breach of the UK arms embargo? There is no evidence in the recent reporting of UK weapons or ammunition being used in Sudan. In terms of reporting to the House, the Foreign Secretary answered substantive questions at the beginning of this month on Sudan and a statement at the end of last month.

It's notable that the hon. Gentleman wasn't here for those questions.
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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I call the shadow Secretary de Priti Patel. Priti Patel. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Millions continue to suffer in Sudan, and it's clear that red Sudan, and it's clear that red lines are constantly being crossed. The world is witnessing unspeakable horrors and barbaric atrocities, and the situation in El Fasher is of grave concern. And Madam Deputy Speaker, no one in this House, or even in the country can comprehend the level of barbaric acts that are being undertaken on these benches.

We have been calling for further sanctions on the warring parties, and we note the additional measures announced by the government last week. This does represent progress, but what is important now is that momentum builds and follows, and I recognise what the Minister said about the closed session at the UN tomorrow. So can we expect to see more rounds of sanctions as it's vital that these sanctions Directorate in the FCDO works around the clock now to identify the culprits, the individuals, the organisations and hold them to account.

What contribution is the UK making to the urgent UN inquiry into El Fasher? What steps will the government be taking? What direct engagement is the Minister having with the Sudan squad? Quad on finding a diplomatic situation and solution to pressurise those with influence over the warring parties, and to agree a ceasefire, to allow humanitarian aid to flow in and enter these atrocities. Is the UK involved in the international process, like Cairo, to develop and build confidence with the Sudanese political civilian forces? This is crucial now for facilitating a transition to a civilian led government.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the humanitarian situation, as we've heard, is catastrophic. So can the Minister explain how the latest aid package will be delivered and by which organisations and how those who are in desperate need will receive it? How is the government ensuring that the shift in frontlines and potential new challenges and blockages to aid delivery are being addressed? And what is the government's assessment of the humanitarian assistance that we've already committed? Is it reaching those in need, and what is the timescales for the dispatch now for the new age? And can the Minister update the House on whether there's been any progress since the Sudan summit earlier this year in London? When it comes to the support pledges made by other countries, what discussions is the government holding with partners who could be deploying urgent relief and assistance in light of this ongoing and growing crisis?
17:50
Chris Elmore Portrait Chris Elmore MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Bridgend, Labour)
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Minister Ellman. >> Can I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary for her opening remarks and indeed her questions? I think she's right to say there should be no politics in this. We all want to see an end to the unimaginable suffering that is taking place in Sudan. And the idea, as was mentioned, the hon. Gentleman's question, actually, that you can see this from satellite imagery just shows the unimaginable scale on sanctions. I will tell the House we won't rule anything out.

And we would keep that under constant review. And following the announcement on Friday, this was the second round of sanctions that the government has done in relation to Sudan on the quad. We are continuing to work and with all members of the quad, we want to be as clear as we can be that all sides need to come together and ensuring this hopefully humanitarian pause, but broadly and wider ceasefire on the specific points around support for refugees and for people on the ground in Sudan, I can tell her that the funding for support so far has been for over a million people, including 98,000 children, and tackling severe malnutrition, 744,000 people in relation to food assistance, and 350,000 people with vital protection over services in relation to victims of international humanitarian law violations and indeed with cash assistance.

So I am confident that this money is is reaching the people that it needs to in terms of more support in, into into her reply, the additional £20 million, or the £146 million is about aid directly on the ground and supporting 800,000 people. Some of that is supporting refugees in Chad and other countries where people are moving to the fundamentally, it is about support there. On the wider points around the work on the multilateral space with the United Nations, you know, absolutely.

We are working on that. This is a personal project for the Foreign Secretary. She is in pretty much constant dialogue, including last week with Secretary Rubio and Baroness Chapman, the Minister for Africa. And the other place is in regular dialogue with African states, near neighbours and broader conversations to ensure that we do find the humanitarian ceasefire and the broader ceasefire that is so desperately needed.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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We come to the Foreign Secretary. >> Statement on Jimmy Lai Foreign Secretary Beccy Cooper. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> With permission.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With permission. Can I first address the horrific attack that took place yesterday at attack that took place yesterday at Bondi Beach in Sydney, across the UK and across the world? People have been shocked and appalled by this vile anti-Semitic terrorist attack, a targeting Jewish families who were celebrating on the beach on the first day of Hanukkah. New South Wales authorities have confirmed that 15 people have been killed, in addition to one of the two gunmen, and 27 people remain in hospital.

It is a devastating loss of life, including a Holocaust survivor and a little girl just ten years old. It's also now been confirmed that one of the victims of the Bondi attack was a British national, bringing this tragedy even closer to home, and we have offered support to the family following their tragic loss. I've offered my Australian counterpart, Foreign Minister Penny Wong, the United Kingdom's full support in their response and the Prime Minister and Her Majesty His Majesty the King have both shared their condolences.

Honecker should be a time of celebration and joy, and yet Jewish people are again confronted with vile acts of hatred simply for being Jews with further distress for our British Jewish communities. Just a couple of months after the Manchester synagogue attack on Yom Kippur. So we stand in solidarity with Australia's Jewish communities, with Jewish communities here and across the world as they continue to mark Hanukkah. And we stand in solidarity with the Australian people. Our thoughts are with all those affected.

We must continue and increase work to root out anti-Semitism in all its forms here and abroad, because we will never let hatred win the. With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me turn now to today's verdict in the trial of Jimmy Lai. Today, Hong Kong's courts ruled that Jimmy Lai was guilty of foreign collusion under the national security law, which Beijing imposed on the city five years ago. They also found him guilty of conspiring to publish seditious materials. Jimmy Lai is a British citizen.

He has been targeted by the Chinese and Hong Kong governments for peacefully exercising his right to freedom of expression. This was a politically motivated prosecution which I strongly condemn. The Jimmy Lai now faces the prospect of a sentence which, for a man of 78 years, could mean the rest of his life in prison. I call again for Jemmy Lai's immediate release on my instruction. The Foreign Office has today summoned the Chinese ambassador to underline our position in the strongest terms.

My acting consul general was present at court to bear witness today, and for many in this House and for the large diaspora community living in the UK, it is heartbreaking that such a violation of a British man's rights could occur in Hong Kong. Because the Hong Kong of Jimmy Lai childhood was a city where a 12 year old boy seeking opportunity could go on to build a business empire and then a media platform. It was a city of freedom, and that freedom brought great prosperity.

So when the joint declaration was signed by the United Kingdom and China in 1984, both nations declared commitment to that prosperity. And our countries agreed that Hong Kong's uniqueness was the foundation of its success, its high degree of autonomy, its executive, legislative and independent judicial power, its rights and freedoms, including freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly and of association, and these were to be enshrined in law. For many years. Hong Kong was the embodiment of the commitments made in that joint declaration the city, the economy and most importantly, the people thrived.

And it was a remarkable, shining example to the world of what Hong Kong's people and cooperation between the UK and China could achieve. And indeed, it is partly because of our important economic as well as our political history with Hong Kong that China remains our third largest trading partner today. But in 2020, China began to break commitments. In that declaration, Hong Kong's free media spoke out and they were punished for it. In June 2020, China breached the joint declaration by imposing its national security law on the city, a law imposed on Hong Kong to silence China's critics, a law that undermined Hong Kong's autonomy and threatened the rights that China had once freely committed to upholding.

And it was not long before the new law was applied. Jemmy Lai was arrested, along with other advocates of democracy, free speech and freedom of assembly. This British citizen, this businessman and journalist, this father, husband and grandfather has endured five years of incarceration. Meanwhile, his supporters around the world have campaigned tirelessly for justice and I want to pay particular tribute to Jimmy's son, Sebastian Lai, who has endured such pain and shown such determination and dignity in fighting for his father and for the wider rights and principles at stake.

I know many honourable colleagues have had the privilege of meeting this determined man, who has endured so much to take on his father's mantle, speaking up where his father cannot. The government has continually and repeatedly raised Jemmy Lai's case with China at every opportunity, urging the authorities to agree his release. Yet the Hong Kong authorities continue to refuse US consular access to our citizen. For a 78 year old man whose health is suffering. So Jemmy Lai remains imprisoned despite international calls for his release and concerns regarding his health.

Imprisoned despite UK Ministers raising our concerns directly and privately with Hong Kong and Chinese officials and imprisoned despite our repeated requests for consular access, the most recent of which was submitted on Thursday. So once again, I call for Jemmy Lai to be granted full access to independent medical professionals to assess his health and ensure he receives adequate treatment. Today's verdict is sadly not a surprise. But no state can bully and persecute the British people for exercising their basic rights.

We have seen how the Hong Kong authorities have tried to use the national security law to target even those living on British soil for speaking up. The UK has repeatedly called for the national security law to be repealed, and for an end to the prosecution of all individuals charged under it, and it remains imperative that the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities end the deliberate targeting of opposition voices through arrest warrants and bounties in the UK and elsewhere. The safety of Hong Kong community in the UK is a top priority for this government and as the Prime Minister has recently said, protecting our security is non-negotiable.

It is our first duty, so this government is unequivocally clear that China poses a series of national security threats to the United Kingdom, and that is why we have taken further steps and tougher measures to defend our democracy by disrupting and deterring threats from China and other state actors, including upgrading sovereign technology, removing Chinese made surveillance equipment from sensitive sites, drawing up new legislation to tackle straight threats modelled on counter-terrorism powers, rolling out new training to police forces across the country on tackling state threats and protecting individuals from transnational repression, and continuing to support the Hong Kong British National Overseas Route, which has welcomed over 200,000 Hong Kongers to the UK and where the Home Office has confirmed as part of the earned settlement consultation, they will retain a five year settlement route in the UK.

China has not upheld its commitments to the people of Hong Kong, but we will Jimmy Lai chose to remain in Hong Kong to speak up for what was right, and he is currently paying the price. But for the sake of Jimmy Lai for his family, but also for the people of Hong Kong, for the joint declaration we signed and for the rule of law, we will not relent on this. Joined by nations across the world, we call again for the immediate release of Jemmy Lai.

I commend this statement to the House. Patel.
18:28
Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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And Deputy Speaker. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, on behalf of His Majesty's Opposition, I would like to give our condolences. Following the anti-Semitic targeted murder of 15 people from the Jewish community in the shooting in Bondi Beach yesterday. The atrocity was absolutely appalling and as the Jewish community comes together this Hanukkah, we honour a tradition that symbolises resilience, faith and the triumph of light over darkness. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the early hours of this morning, Jemmy Lai was convicted following a shameful show trial under the repressive national security law imposed on Hong Kong in breach of the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

Jimmy Lai imprisonment, trial and conviction mark a new low in the Chinese Communist Party. Shameful attempts to extinguish freedom, democracy and the rule of law in Hong Kong. It is yet another serious violation of the Sino-British declaration. The scenes of Jemmy, a 78 year old man, being paraded around in chains are disturbing, but his defiance stands as a source of hope for those who still believe in freedom, democracy and human rights. But despite all the pain and suffering, despite being persecuted at the hands of the Chinese Communist Party, despite more than 1800 days that he has been held in solitary confinement, and despite his health deteriorating, Jimmy's spirit remains unbroken throughout the last few years.

His son Sebastian, his families and supporters have fought hard for his freedom and to raise awareness of his appalling treatment. I pay tribute to them and the whole house will stand behind them as they fight to free. Jemmy continues. Jemmy should be freed and allowed to come home to the United Kingdom to be with his family. We need to know what action the government will now take to do everything possible to secure his release, and to seriously ratchet up the pressure to end this disgraceful and draconian national security law.

And also, what will the consequences be on China, on Beijing, if they do not change its position? So can the Foreign Secretary tell us when was the last time the Prime Minister raised Jemmy Lyons imprisonment directly with President Xi? Has he called President Xi today, in the aftermath of this conviction, to demand Jimmy's release and to demand that Jemmy is free to come home to the UK? How often does a Prime Minister raised this case directly? Since July 2024, what was President Xi's response to him on the occasion that this case was raised either publicly or in private? What assurances have been given about Jimmy Lai treatment in prison? We know his health is deteriorating and he's being kept in absolutely cruel conditions.

So what medical help and access to him is the Prime Minister pursuing, and what has the response been from the Chinese and the Hong Kong authorities? And has the Prime Minister told President Xi face to face and directly what that we will oppose is political, show trial and condemn them for breaching the Sino-British Joint Declaration with their national security law. This House has previously been informed that Ministers constantly raise this case, and that there have been in touch with their Chinese counterparts.

So, can the Foreign Secretary tell us if the national security adviser raises on his recent visit to China? And did he have any discussions about Jimmy's particular case in relation to the national security law? Has the Prime Minister continued to raise our concerns that this law is in breach of the joint declaration, and what discussions are taking place with international partners, including the United States, to pressure China into releasing Jemmy and to scrapping their oppressive national security law? The immediate release of Jemmy has to be a priority for this government, but it also raises wider issues with UK China relations.

The Prime Minister is clearly seeking significantly closer relations with Beijing, and has effectively ended the policy of trying to reduce strategic dependency for economic reasons, even though the economic impact has been negligible and will not be felt in people's pockets. While the Foreign Secretary stands here condemning China, while at the same time she's written a supportive letter for their super embassy spy hub today shows. This is exactly why this approach is deeply foolhardy, Hardy Sebastian Ly has said this morning.

How can we normalise a relationship if the British government can't put a 70 year old man on a plane who is in seriously bad health and send him back to the UK? And if they can't even do something as simple as that, how can we talk about closer relations? He has called for the release to be a precondition on any further talks with China. So does the Foreign Secretary agree and does the Prime Minister agree? And with the Chinese Communist Party continuing to imprison Jemmy Lile and undermine freedom in Hong Kong, will she and the Prime Minister send a signal of our disgust to the CPP by cancelling the Prime Minister's planned visit to China next January, unless Jimmy Lai is released and blocking their super embassy planning application and placing China on the enhanced tier of furs.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Foreign Secretary. Can I thank >> Foreign Secretary. Can I thank her for her support for the victims of the appalling terrorist attack of the appalling terrorist attack in Bondi Beach in Sydney, and also welcome her support for the release of Jimmy Lai? It should be something that unites the entire house, and the whole house should support the calls for his freedom. She refers to one action the government is taking and has continued to take. That is why the Foreign Office has today summoned the Chinese ambassador in order to convey the full strength of our feeling about this decision, and the full about the prosecution in the first place.

The politically motivated prosecution under this law. And I can tell her that not only has the Prime Minister raised this, not only have I raised this directly in my recent conversation with Foreign Minister Wang Yi, but also a whole succession of government Ministers have also raised this with their counterparts in the Chinese government, because we do not see this simply as a foreign policy matter, we see this as a matter that affects the entire government relationship as well. She seemed to be suggesting that we should then have no further engagement.

But actually the opposite is true. And in fact, what we need to do is to ensure that we are conveying the strength of our feeling. Exactly. Because this is so important, we have also been engaging with our international counterparts. The EU today has said that they deplore the conviction this prosecution is politically motivated and emblematic of the erosion of democracy and fundamental freedoms in Hong Kong. Since the imposition of the National Security Law in 2020. I have also raised this at the G7, including with my G7 counterparts, and she will know the strength of feeling in the US on this issue as well, where I have discussed this also with our US counterparts as well as across the G7, and we will continue to raise this not just directly in our relationship with China, but also in international discussions as well, in order to maintain the pressure on China.

China has said that authorities have said that they want to respect the international rule of law, that they want to be a country that does that well, then we need to hold them to that, because at the heart of international law is the legal requirements that they signed up to that still stand in international law since 1984. As a result of that declaration. However, that declaration is not currently being respected. It is being repeatedly violated. And if they want to hold up, uphold international law on the world stage, then they should uphold those commitments in Hong Kong.

They should uphold the rights and the freedoms of the people of Hong Kong, and they should release Jimmy Lai.
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Calum Miller Portrait Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
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Jimmy Lai politically motivated conviction, the trumped up charges and sham trial show how desperate the Beijing regime is to silence its critics. And I agree with Jemmy San Sebastian that it is now up to the UK government to ensure his welfare and secure his release. So I welcome, welcome the summoning of the Chinese ambassador today. What was the outcome? Has Jimmy Lai access to medical treatment been assured, and what further steps is the government taking to secure his immediate release? The Foreign Secretary is right to say that China poses national security threats to the UK.

So can she explain why it is not on the enhanced tier of furs? Jimmy Lai is not alone in the fight for civil liberties and the rule of law in Hong Kong. Countless brave Hong Kongers continue to advocate for democracy and freedom, even as the CCP works relentlessly to erode the city's independence for speaking out. Many Hong Kongers living in the UK face daily intimidation and threats from Beijing. Just last week, pro-democracy campaigner Carmen Lau was subjected to a renewed campaign of intrusive and distressing intimidation and misinformation.

So what reassurances can the Foreign Secretary provide today to Carmen and other Hong Kongers living in the UK that they will be better protected in the future against Beijing's predations? Has she updated her submission to the housing Secretary about the risks posed by the new super embassy? And will the government look to sanction all those CCP officials who are responsible for extraterritorial intimidation of pro-democracy activists? Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government likes to say that it will challenge China when we must.

So can the Foreign Secretary indicate one thing that the government will not do for China, in order to signal that the treatment of Jimmy Lai is unacceptable.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Foreign Secretary. >> Foreign Secretary. >> Can I thank the hon. Member for his support for Jimmy Lai and for his support for Jimmy Lai and for Jemmy Lai's release? Unfortunately, I can tell him that China has not currently agreed either to consular access or to health access. But let me be very clear. We will not relent on this. We will continue to raise it with our international partners, as well as directly with China, and we will continue to do so, including in international forums as well.

Can I also join him in condemning the targeting of Carmen Lau and others as well, who have been targeted in the UK? It is why we are strengthening the training for police forces across the UK for all police forces on how to deal with state threats and transnational repression. It's why we also increased the investment in our intelligence and security agencies so that they can also deal with state threats, as well as traditional counter-terrorism threats as well, and also why we are now increasingly use new measures such as sanctions, for example, on issues around cyber threats, which he will be aware.

We have recently sanctioned two Chinese entities around cyber threats and cyber challenges to the UK. You also raised the issues around the embassy. As he will know, this remains a planning decision for the MCHLG under their independent processes. But I can also tell him that security considerations have been immensely taken immensely seriously, not just by the Home Office and by the Foreign Office, but also by the agencies throughout Jo White.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. The Hong Kong National Security Law and its conviction.

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Law and its conviction. Of Jimmy Lai are a breach of the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration.
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Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)
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Sir Iain Duncan Smith I rise to explain again, I agree with the right hon. Lady about her comments right hon. Lady about her comments about the terrible attacks in Bondi, and I congratulate her for raising it now. But I want to say that I rise today is to express the view that this isn't just about Hong Kong. This is also about this chamber. I'm one of those that has been named in the prosecution case against Jemmy Lai nine times. There are others who have been named more than that, which is appalling because I'd love to have met him and spoken to him, but I never have done trumped up nonsense from the CCP.

The second thing I would say to her is it's. I agree with her strength of statement about the appalling nature of the government in China over this issue, but it's no good just meeting people to say they're wrong or calling in the ambassadors. Surely what we have to do is show them that now there is a ratchet upwards of the things that they will do. We will do. Number one, we need to tell them there will be no visit in January by a Prime Minister to an organisation that is so corrupt and indecent.

Number two, we should start imposing surely sanctions in and on those members in Hong Kong who run the place, who we have done none of, but every other country has sanctioned. But we have not. And finally, the idea of allowing this regime to have a huge embassy with 200 extra spies brought in at this point need surely to be they need to be told this will not happen until they release Jimmy Lai Foreign Secretary.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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provide. >> Meg Hillier. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Speaker, I. Have a constituent who has suffered a terrible rape in Hong Kong which wasn't properly investigated. Her statement was investigated. Her statement was under Google Translate, no rape kit taken. She then found herself accused and has been of something else. And as a result of that, and has been in the system for two years now in January, she has she trusted the legal system in Hong Kong, would support her, her lawyers taking on her case as a black British woman have taken a risk in doing that.

Does the Foreign Secretary have confidence in the legal system in Hong Kong, and is there anything we can do to support my constituent Foreign Secretary? Well, I'm really.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Very sorry to hear the circumstances for my hon. Friend's constituent. Very happy to discuss constituent. Very happy to discuss with her further the circumstances of that case, and she will know. We of that case, and she will know. We have repeatedly raised our concerns, particularly about the national security law and the way in which security law and the way in which that law does not respect the circumstances and the commitments that were agreed. It is a crucial that were agreed.

It is a crucial part of Hong Kong's identity for so many years, and that were embodied in that declaration that it was about respect for the rule of law.
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Marie Rimmer Portrait Ms Marie Rimmer MP (St Helens South and Whiston, Labour)
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Marie Rimmer. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the use of foreign lawyers by both prosecution and lawyers by both prosecution and defence is a long established tradition in Hong Kong. Yet, Mr. Lai Jamie has been denied that right. Even his judgement has been passed. This is about justice, not rigged justice. This verdict not only devastates one one British citizen and his family, it represents a brutal attack of free speech and the rule of law in Hong Kong. It confirms that the national security law is being used to silence critics, destroy independent media, and dismantle the freedoms that were promised to the people of Hong Kong.

And I quote from the Committee for Foreign Freedom in Hong Kong to say that Jemmy Lai is guilty of the unwavering belief in freedom for the people of Hong Kong. Contrary to Beijing's intentions, the verdict today highlights Jimmy Lai courage and integrity, and sends a clear message around the world that Hong Kong's once proud judicial system is severely tarnished under Beijing's authoritarian regime, the foreign secretary and many Ministers, as he is quoted today, have raised this, spoken to different people and our international colleagues, and we must continue to do that.

But it is evident that that is no longer sufficient. The Prime Minister here raised must raise this with the Chinese regimes at the highest possible level. Jimmy Lai is a British citizen, and I ask our Prime Minister to consider carefully what action we will now take to protect this citizen and many, many more. After all, it is British Government's first duty to protect citizens at home and abroad.
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Tom Tugendhat Portrait Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)
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Tom Tugendhat. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> May I start by saying I welcome very much the Foreign Secretary's words about the horrific words about the horrific anti-Semitic murders in Australia. And to those who died, we all just say, May their memories be a blessing. When we talk about Hong Kong and we talk about Jimmy Lai, could we remember that the attack on Jimmy Lai, the arrest of Jemmy Lai, isn't just a punishment against his family or against him, it is actually part of the repression of the Chinese state.

It is actually deliberately being used to threaten and intimidate Hong Kongers here in the United Kingdom. So when we talk about standing up for Jimmy Lai, we're actually talking about standing up for ourselves. We're talking about defending our own freedoms and defending the liberties that British people have the right to expect, both at home and abroad. And so will she. Forgive me when I say, and I recognise that she's only been in the role for a number of months, what we're hearing again is the bureaucratisation of process, and not the leadership of the politics is supposed to offer.

When we don't hear that decisions like the embassy or the visit are potentially on the line, then Beijing hears that they can just continue as normal. Because let's not pretend. Let's not pretend that a fundamentally strategic decision, like the siting of an embassy, is the mere duty of a bureaucrat. It's not. It's the role of a government to offer leadership and direction. And I'm afraid at the moment this government is offering none.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Foreign Secretary. >> Well, let me say to the hon. Member as having been formerly Home Secretary before now being Foreign Secretary before now being Foreign Secretary, I'm very clear of the nature of the security threats that China poses. He's right to say this is not simply about the threat to Jimmy Lai. This is not simply about this particular prosecution. That in itself is used more widely as part of transnational repression, which is something I take immensely seriously, because this is about not just about British citizens in Hong Kong.

It's also about residents here on UK soil, which we take immensely seriously. And that's why we have strengthened our threat and response. He will recognise two that the the sentencing is expected in the new year. We are very clear that we need the Chinese government to hear the not just the condemnation from the UK, but also from other partners around the world of what has happened with the political, politically motivated prosecution in this case and to recognise the urgent humanitarian circumstances around Jimmy Lai.

We will continue to make that a central issue in all of our discussions with the Chinese government. He will know that there are separate processes for different things, and he will also know, given his background and experience, the importance of recognising independent processes.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Wales Secretary and the hon. >> Wales Secretary and the hon. Member is right to raise this. And there is a real concern, and I am sure, of the difficulties that I sure, of the difficulties that I know that she has had, and she will know that the that this has been raised as well with the Chinese authorities. I would also say she's right to raise the concerns of the Hong Kongers who live here, but who still have family back home, and then as a result, do not feel that they can visit them because even where they have British citizenship, the Chinese authorities do not recognise dual nationality and therefore there are real concerns for anyone visiting family, either in Hong Kong or more widely in China, that that dual citizenship or that their British citizenship simply will not be recognised.

That is what has happened with Jimmy Lai and it is why we continue to raise this is an issue about British citizens and we will stand up for

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British citizens. Luke Taylor. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to take an opportunity to I'd like to take an opportunity to pay tribute to Sebastian Lai, who I met with alongside a number of colleagues earlier, and his courage and fortitude throughout this and fortitude throughout this process. Ever since the denounced, I've been inundated with concerns from Hong Kong, as in my from Hong Kong, as in my constituency of Sutton and Cheam. Concerned about what this means for their safety under the program of their safety under the program of transnational repression that the Chinese are are persecuting.

They said that diplomacy works until it doesn't. And I think now we can see that this hasn't. So there need to be consequences. So can I press again on an answer to why China has not been placed on the enhanced tier of the foreign influence registration scheme, but also, I understand as Home Secretary, the Minister has submitted evidence to the Housing Secretary regarding the security implications of the supremacy. Has she updated that advice since new risks and threats have been identified?
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Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Jim Shannon. First of all, can I associate myself with the comments that the Foreign Secretary made earlier on in relation sending my sympathies, our sympathies to those people who were murdered at Bondi Beach just this week. They're very much in our thoughts and prayers and, and, and we need to support as well. I believe this government needs to support the Australian Prime Minister and government and the action they will take against the terrorists that are that are now in Australia.

To be honest, Madam Deputy Speaker, speaker, we're not really unexpected when we when we read this, the we have all read the character of governments and officials in this travesty was always going to be the result. While China has been permitted to rule with an iron fist. But what cannot be forgotten? That this is not a Chinese only issue? Jimmy Lai is a British national, and as such should have had his government protecting him from protection. I'm not too old to remember, Madam Deputy Speaker, that when you held a British passport, it did give you protection.

Well, I want to see if you don't mind asking where that protection. Protection is. What steps will British government take to enable this elderly British national to secure a just result, rather than the theatre that we have witnessed and watched? And with respect Foreign Secretary will the will honourably confirm that if a time for watching is ended and government will finally take time to act. Thank you.
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Sarah Bool Portrait Sarah Bool MP (South Northamptonshire, Conservative)
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Can I thank the Foreign. Secretary for her statement this Secretary for her statement this afternoon? Point of order. Sarah Bool. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the 12th of November at Prime Minister's Questions, the Member for Clacton and leader of reform announced that the reform led West announced that the reform led West Northamptonshire Council would be issuing foreclosure notices on three migrant hotels, including one in my constituency, in the next few days because of grave concerns about the safety of women and children and girls on the streets of West Northampton South. But a Freedom of Information request response on the 9th of December

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confirms that no such foreclosure issue has been issued. Surprise. I asked the Member for Clacton

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I asked the Member for Clacton to correct the record and apologise for inadvertently misleading the House, but I've received no House, but I've received no response. So given the seriousness of this issue and the sensitivities of the implications in his question, of the implications in his question, can you please advise how I can take this matter forward? Because members of the public should be

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members of the public should be place? Yeah, yeah. Can I thank the. hon. Lady for notice of her point of order? And I understand that she has notified the Member for Clacton in advance. She will for Clacton in advance. She will know that this is not a matter for the chair, but her point has been well and truly put on the record. well and truly put on the record.
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Kate Dearden Portrait Kate Dearden MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )
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Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I'm returning the Employment Rights Bill. >> For the consideration of Lords amendments for the fourth time. amendments for the fourth time. This bill will bring in employment legislation into 21st century, extending the protections many British companies already offer their staff to all. I cannot hide my frustration that once again, we have been blocked from getting this bill onto the statute book by the

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Other place. Give way. So early on, of course.

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So early on, of course. Desmond Swayne. Which British company offers unlimited company offers unlimited compensation for unfair dismissal? And what what message does it send And what what message does it send to those companies that can locate well-paid staff anywhere in the

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world? No. I will allow the right hon. The hon. Gentleman to listen to my reflections further on in my speech. I'm not sure he entirely grasped the compensation cap proposal and what we are intending to do here. I will, of course, give way. What the Minister agree with me.

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What message does this send to the British public when 33 hereditary peers have tried to hereditary peers have tried to defeat the government by 24 votes on a manifesto promise on sick pay, on a manifesto promise on sick pay, for example, which will miss the deadline for April for some of the deadline for April for some of the lowest earners from some of the wealthiest. Shouldn't we get on? Go through the night if we have to,

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through the night if we have to, and get this bill passed? Mr. I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention. We are absolutely determined to get this legislation through and urge colleagues in the other place to pass this bill for the reasons my hon. Friend outlines today, 1.3 million people will be entitled to statutory sick pay from as early as April this year, and that is significant and why it's so important we get it onto the statute books. I will give way.



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Jim Shannon my colleagues in the other place, they all express concern about the open ended concern about the open ended unlimited compensation. It's a concern not for just for colleagues in the other place and colleagues here. It's a concern for businesses back home. I know the Minister means well, but can I just ask for

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goodness sake, this will not work for businesses. Mr.

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Mr. Perhaps if audible friends allow me to make some progress with my speech, I will get to the background and reasonings for the compensation cap. So on that note, I will proceed. Continue delay to this bill will put implementation at risk, and that creates insecurity and uncertainty for workers and employers alike. I hope the Other place acknowledges the importance of this and lets the government deliver this bill, which is backed by an electoral mandate. As my right hon.

Friends on this side of the House have already alluded to, we have been in ping pong. Madam Deputy Speaker, for far too long, and further delay is not in anyone's best interests, so I hope the points I make today can address the reservations of those members of the Other place who have been engaging with this process in good faith, when they have had genuine concerns to the changes of the Bill. And as I told the House last week, I convened a series of constructive conversations on the unfair dismissal provisions, which resulted in a workable agreement with trade unions and business representatives and was the subject of the government amendments made last week.

I can assure hon. Members, as someone who was in the room during negotiations, that the agreement between unions and business representatives was made with goodwill and in good faith by all sides, as those representatives from the British Chamber of Commerce, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, Small Business Britain, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Confederation of British Industry said in today's letter to the Secretary of State. The outcome of the dialogue represented a significant step forward which will have a positive impact on growth and opportunities.

The amendments tabled in the other place undermine that agreement, as they would amend the bill so that the compensatory award cap is not removed and instead the government would conduct a publish a review of the impact of the cap. The removal

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of the cap would then require further primary legislation. I will give way. I'm very. Grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way.

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giving way. I mean. She set out how. Sensible the conversations have been thus far, but doesn't she been thus far, but doesn't she agree with me that there have been totally frustrated by colleagues down the corridor, have got no down the corridor, have got no regard for the mandate that was returned to the to the government at the last general election, and at the last general election, and we should stand firm and make sure that these rights are not further

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impeded by the unelected House. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. That's why our motion today disagrees with the Lords amendments and insists on our amendments from the previous round of ping pong, which deliver on the

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of ping pong, which deliver on the agreement made by trade unions and business representative organisations. I will give way. I thank.

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I thank. The Minister for giving way and I draw attention to my register of interests. I wondered whether the interests. I wondered whether the Minister is comfortable that by introducing an uncapped unfair dismissal compensation award will make the UK an international outlier when many of our international competitors have clear limits. And if she is comfortable, what assessment has she made of the impact on UK jobs and on UK inward investment, particularly in business sectors which are internationally mobile?

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Minister. I thank the hon. Member for her intervention. Our amendment and intervention. Our amendment and this proposal will remove the 52 weeks gross pay and the £118,000, £223 cap. And it's important to reflect that in practice, few awards get anywhere close to these caps. Would the median average award for unfair dismissal being £6,746 in 20 2324? Employment tribunals will continue to calculate compensatory rewards to reflect the losses that employees actually suffer as a result of being unfairly dismissed.



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After giving way. Has she conducted an impact assessment? If conducted an impact assessment? If so, how much does she think this will cost? How many uncapped? will cost? How many uncapped? Rewards will be made? Because these are the kind of big, important decisions that the other place have decisions that the other place have concerns about, as do this side of the benches. Because if she has that evidence, she could put it to

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that evidence, she could put it to bed tonight by simply providing it for us to be able to make an informed decision. Mr.

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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. An economic assessment will be published as a standard practice.

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standard practice. Standard practice. I will give way. For my hon. Friend. I'm sure, will share my frustration at the will share my frustration at the sheer misinformation that has been spread about the uncapped, the spread about the uncapped, the removal of the cap on compensation. As she says, quite rightly, the median award at the moment is less median award at the moment is less than £7,000. And more importantly than that, only 2% of all employment tribunals ever result in a compensation award for unfair dismissal.

So does she agree with me? The government has indeed taken into account the concerns of crossbench peers by committing to an assessment and, more importantly, that those employers and the unions together can see what the opposition don't, which is this

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will be fair to workers and fair to businesses that are fair. Yes, sir. I thank my hon. Friend for his

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I wholeheartedly agree with his comments and reflections. We believe that the reflections. We believe that the current compensatory award cap also creates a systemic incentive for unfair dismissal. Claimants to unfair dismissal. Claimants to construct more complex cases, which could take longer for the tribunal to handle. Therefore, by removing the compensatory award cap for unfair dismissal claims, this incentive may be lessened, potentially making it easier for tribunals to reach a judgement more quickly and decreasing the burdens on the system.



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I'm very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, and I'm not at all surprised that she's having a little bit of a problem with the other place. After all, she's not the first Minister to have been confused as to what was in a manifesto and what wasn't. The Prime Minister seems to have been confused about the assisted suicide bill. May I? May I, however, raise bill. May I? May I, however, raise the question about the cap? The problem many businesses will have with this is that most businesses with this is that most businesses will take out some form of insurance for unfair dismissal.

Now, insurance companies work on the basis they have an understandable level of risk that their underwriting, if they don't know what that risk is, they won't underwrite it. And the challenge here is that by removing a cap, she's changing the level of maximum risk, and therefore she's making it much harder for insurance companies

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to underwrite it. Has she spoken to insurance companies about the challenges that this poses? Mr.

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Mr. I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I listened to the to the other side of the chamber and to the opposition, and again and to the opposition, and again and again, they are coming to the chamber here today to talk down what has been a clear manifesto what has been a clear manifesto commitment at this Bill. You will and as part as, as part of, as part of the I will give one. I thank the Minister for giving way.



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And perhaps I'm sure she's coming on to us this in her speech, but it might be worth reiterating, but it might be worth reiterating, for the benefit of those on the benches opposite, that the best way to avoid having to pay compensation

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for unfair dismissal is to avoid unfairly dismissing someone in the first place. Don't do it, Minister. Very good point.

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Very good point. It's an excellent point, as always from my hon. Friend, and I always from my hon. Friend, and I thank her for it. Today we are seeking the support of this house so that we can finally secure Royal Assent and be able to move towards implementing our long overdue reforms to make work pay. And I want to end and conclude with more of the letter from today's correspondence. The Secretary of State from Business Representations representatives that I mentioned earlier, British business believes that now is the time for Parliament to pass this bill, and I'd urge members all across this House to reflect on those comments, to reflect on our election mandate from the election last year and all the work and consideration that's been put into this bill so far from both houses.

And I thank all colleagues for it. And that is why

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I beg to move this government's amendment today. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their amendment 129 to Commons Amendment amendment 129 to Commons Amendment 120 G. And there are amendments 120 to 120 S to Commons amendment 120 H.

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to 120 S to Commons amendment 120 H. Shadow Secretary of State Andrew Griffith. Thank you. Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Look, the conservative the concerns that we conservatives have with this bill are long known and we've debated those. I accept I won't repeat them all today because we're not here to debate the whole bill, just the message sent to us from the other end. There was a time, Madam Deputy Speaker, when the Labour Party would have cared about protecting jobs and those who wanted one when they believed, like we do, in the dignity of work. What that meant for families, for communities.

If you like a Christian socialism rather than the state worship that seems to have replaced it. And I can't honestly think of a previous government that would ever have passed this bill, certainly not since the 1970s. And the result, whether they like it or not, is that day by day, week by week, month by month, people are losing their jobs. This Christmas, there will be 192,000 fewer in private sector payrolled employment than last Christmas. Who knows what it will be like next Christmas? We have the worst ever graduate jobs market.

Adzuna estimates jobs for degree holders have fallen by 33%. Youth unemployment. They used to care about this. Madam Deputy Speaker, between for those between 16 and 24 has now reached 15%, according to the office for National Statistics. And like every month so far under this government, tomorrow morning, we are likely to hear that the rate of unemployment is higher. Madam Deputy Speaker. This bill could have been on the statute book today, but for one simple reason a gross betrayal of trust.

The small group of business groups who they invited in for tea and sandwiches took this government

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at their word. Antonia Bance hon. Member for giving way. I wonder if he might like to tell the House which of like to tell the House which of these business groups he disagrees with, and we shouldn't listen to today, because these are the groups telling us and telling peers in the telling us and telling peers in the other place that they should be voting in favour of the bill. Does he disagree with the British Chambers of Commerce, the Chartered Chambers of Commerce, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development? Does he disagree with the Confederation of British Industry, with the Federation of Industry, with the Federation of Small Businesses, with the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, or with the Small Business Britain Group? Which of those does he disagree with, Madam Deputy Speaker?

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Well, madam, madam Deputy, Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon. Lady would have been wise to contain her excitement because I. I agree with all of them. I agree with all of them. When when they said in their them. When when they said in their letter today that the Minister selectively didn't quote that they selectively didn't quote that they are not in favour of removing the cap together. And I agree with them, and I have spoken to each and every one of them who was in the room, and they are crystal clear.

This was not a concession discussed with us or agreed by us in the negotiation. I invite the Minister to intervene on me if she thinks a word of what I say is wrong. She is misquoting and it is misrepresenting those business groups who are not supporting that and why. Madam Deputy Speaker, why would any sane government scrap the cap entirely? Indeed, this government didn't for 13.5 months. Of the 14 months that we've debating this bill, it wasn't in the manifesto, it wasn't in the bill, it wasn't in the impact assessment.

It wasn't considered by the regulatory policy committee. And it's never been discussed in this House until they threw it in

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at the last moment, in a breach of trust with the business groups that they negotiated. Yeah.

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Yeah. There is an immense of course, I give way. Minister, for giving way. I mean, I know.

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I mean, I know. Where this came from with the New Deal for working. People and so do business and so do the trade do business and so do the trade unions. As the Minister has pointed out, there has been discussions and they have have come to that conclusion. What is it about conclusion. What is it about protecting people from unfair dismissal? Does the Minister have a problem with Andrew Griffith?

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Well, what is it about protecting people from unemployment, from preventing young people from preventing young people getting jobs, from the economic growth, the economic growth that this government, of which she was this government, of which she was once a member, said was their number one priority. Their obsession and has been singularly obsession and has been singularly failed to deliver. So on this side of the House, we want to get Britain working again. We want Britain working again. We want those jobs for those young people.

We think it's a stain on our character that 15% of young people are unemployed, and all we get on this side of the House are union paid representatives trying to put

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more people out of jobs, deny more opportunities for young people. Come back on me. I thank.

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I thank. You for giving way again. He's been very generous with his time again. What is the problem the again. What is the problem the Minister has with the insecure, low paid work that people are often had without any contract that gives them regular hours? Does the Minister realise how difficult that Minister realise how difficult that is for young people, for any person to have any security in their life? And that was what he presided over over the 14 years of his failure.

And that's why Labour were elected

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on this manifesto promise. Under our government. Madam Deputy Speaker, we created 4 Deputy Speaker, we created 4 million new jobs. This government has this government has lost jobs every single month that they've every single month that they've been in office. But the points that the The right hon. Lady makes are the The right hon. Lady makes are not the points that we are debating here today. There is one issue in front of us, which is their desire to defend and remove a cap of 118,000.

Nothing to do with ordinary workers. What is it? What is it about today's modern Labour Party that their focus, the whole reason that we are back here, that this compromise wasn't accepted, is their desire to remove a cap of 118,000 that will only ever benefit those who are the better off and look at what is happening.
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Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)
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I'm grateful to the Minister Shadow Minister for giving way. Does he recall that in 1999, when the Blair government increased the Cap, it held a consultation beforehand, and in 2015, when the coalition government introduced a

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cap, they held a consultation beforehand. Why is this government behaving differently? Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, my right hon. Friend makes a very important point, which I hope. I hope somebody on those hope. I hope somebody on those benches will address themselves to. We've seen no analysis. We have no idea of the cost of this measure. idea of the cost of this measure. Not a single business. Not a single person who employs people has come person who employs people has come out and endorsed the removal of this cap. It's it's it's beyond me, I'm afraid.

The the right hon. The hon. Member makes a very important point. And yet, what is happening in our employment tribunals on Friday? I'm sure the Minister knows herself. On Friday, it was revealed that the delay, the backlogs, that the employment tribunal have reached their highest ever level. Now, at the end of the most recent quarter, there were 515,000 open claims. Now, before anyone intervenes, I accept that much of that was inherited. But they are making. But before they laugh, they're making it worse.

Since. Since this bill. Merely since this bill was introduced to this place, the claims backlog has increased by 65,000. They're doing nothing to address this backlog. It goes up in every single month. I don't think they've even discussed this with their calamity of a justice secretary. And we know that they've carried out no impact assessment. Extraordinary. The scrapping of the compensation cap for the highest paid will simply stoke this fire. Now, I make it a rule, Madam Deputy Speaker, not to learn lessons in how to run an economy from France.

But even France introduced a cap on tribunal payments to tackle unemployment and encourage labour market dynamism. Well, perhaps we should take advice closer to home. The Health Secretary today seems to be no fan at all of giving more powers to unaccountable unions. Now the Minister blames peers. Well, happily, if he's going to talk

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about how he's going to fix our NHS. I thank him for giving way in the debates on the Employment the debates on the Employment Rights Bill. Although I struggle with the member's speech to follow his line of logic. He said that the effect of this change would be to benefit the wealthiest employees. benefit the wealthiest employees. But CEOs, other senior executives very rarely seek recourse to employment tribunals for a number employment tribunals for a number of reasons. Can he name a single CEO or equivalent position who has

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pursued a case for an employment tribunal? Yeah. Well, no, sir, madam Speaker. No,

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Well, no, sir, madam Speaker. No, no, I can't, because there is a cap. The very cap that his party are seeking tonight to remove. I mean, they I try not to be uncharitable about their complete absence of about their complete absence of business experience in the Cabinet, but I have to say, I mean, that sort of level of question together, sort of level of question together, together with the impact is, is just just embarrassing. Now, look, the the Minister in her remarks and there wasn't much of an argument.

It was really just a critique. But the Minister blamed peers in the other place for the government's own failures. Well, notwithstanding, the peers are doing the constitutional job that we ask them to. LBJ said the first rule of politics is to learn how to count. Now the government lost the vote on its unemployment bill last week by 24 votes, but 65 of their own peers didn't want anything to do with this bill, didn't turn up, didn't vote. Yeah.

One Labour peer during the passage of this bill has even resigned his peerage, joined the exodus of wealth creators to the United Arab Emirates because of what he sees. The Resolution Foundation and Tony Blair Institute have both criticised this bill, and by removing that compensation cap, they are not protecting the vulnerable. If that's what they wish to do, then there's other ways to do that. It's the £118,000 compensation that ordinary workers will never benefit from. It's it's a genuinely mad world.

I don't understand why we're having this debate this time last week. This was something the Liberal Democrats agreed with me on. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells has been campaigning for the boss of South East Water to be fired, but without a cap, his payout could be millions. Is that really what they want? So what changed? What changed? What changed, Madam Deputy Speaker? Other. Other than the appearance of

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five new Liberal Democrat peers. So in. Behind.

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I do say very briefly, but very after that I want. mean. He's setting out a powerful case

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He's setting out a powerful case because we're puzzled. A system which is designed for ordinary workers and has a sensible cap. workers and has a sensible cap. It's now being opened up to the very CEOs which had been highlighted previously used it. highlighted previously used it. We've got a Labour Party in the hook of the unions, yet strangely coming out to do a non manifesto included policy measure which can only help the rich. What happened

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to the Labour Party? Andrew Griffith. Well, I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I'll leave that hanging there and hope that that hanging there and hope that the benches opposite will address that. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, I ask the government at conclusion, I ask the government at this 11th hour to pull back from the brink, introduce a financial cap, and we can get this business cap, and we can get this business done this week. They've got no consent from business.

They sought no support in their manifesto. I've talked about youth unemployment. talked about youth unemployment. I've talked about the level of redundancies. We conservatives will get Britain working again. We will end the attacks on employers. We will repeal the job killing measures in this bill. But for the sake of businesses, for the sake of the backlog and the sake of Britain, the government should accept this

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motion. For members will be aware that this debate has. To conclude.

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To conclude. By 824. So with an immediate five minute time limit. And of

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five minute time limit. And of course, if members didn't feel obliged to use all five minutes, it would help their colleagues. Justin Madders thank you, Madam

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Justin Madders thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I first declare my entry in the Register of Members Financial interests and donations from the trade unions, followed by
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Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders MP (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)
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from the trade unions, followed by members of the GMB and unite trade unions. So I'm not sure if we're on a ping or a pong now, but there is a bit of a whiff of stubbornness about the fact that we are back here again. Last week I called for the government to make this place sits every day until Christmas. Christmas to make sure we got this bill through. It's a shame the other place took that as an invitation, rather than the contingency plan that it was intended to be.

But if that's what it takes, that's what we should do. We are ready. It is wrong that an unelected house, where jobs are given for life, can dig in and push back on something that will give millions of workers rights that we promised long ahead of an election, and for which we have a decisive mandate. I commend the government and the Minister for not backing down on this. A deal was reached with the relevant stakeholders, a pragmatic compromise, a deal they are publicly saying needs to go through these.

Actually how mature, effective industrial relations are supposed to work. And I have to say, I don't think the Lord's arguments on this are particularly substantial. Certainly not reasons to delay the bill. Again, the point made by them was that we shouldn't agree with the lifting of the cap as it fell outside the scope of the manifesto commitments in this area. But that doesn't really take us very far, when actually the original concession made on qualifying periods was also outside the scope of the manifesto.

And of course, that's all part of the same package. And it feels to me they're more about saying they want to have the final word rather than having to deal with the substance of it. And besides, I will. Yes. We didn't hear it from the Minister. Could you please explain the case for removing the cap? I'm glad that there are some conservative backbenchers here. Last week they were all somewhere else last week, so we're having some contributions. But I wasn't in the room.

Why? Why the when the negotiations took place? But I understand that was the deal. And I'm afraid there's been some wilful misunderstandings on, on the conservative benches about what lifting the compensation cap actually means. Compensation and unfair dismissal is actually calculated by defined heads of loss. Under the law, lifting the cap won't change that one bit at all. If the claims the claims are still necessary, then they will be there. It just means that some workers, particularly older workers who might not be able to get another job, they may have substantial pension losses.

They're the ones who will actually benefit from this, not the fatcat bosses that we've been talking about. And I think it's important that we stress that point. Anyway. I don't remember the Conservative's manifesto in 2010 promising to double the period for qualification, unfair dismissal. And I would do. I remember there being a pledge in either the Tory or the Liberal Democrat manifestos to actually put a cap on compensation. Nonetheless, the coalition government pushed both of those policies through, and those who claim that the lifting of the cap will see an avalanche of claims ignore the fact that the rationale used for introducing the cap in the first place was to deal with perceptions about levels of compensation people might recover, in other words, legislating on perceptions rather than facts.

And I have to say, we've heard plenty of those perceptions repeated again tonight. And of course, we can complain about a two year wait for tribunal claims. But I think I'm grateful for the shadow Secretary of State recognising his party's own culpability in this. But I think that's why it's important that this government is working with the trade unions, it's working with the businesses, it's working with the judiciary and Acas to find out ways we can get our system more improved.

So we do get justice in a quicker way instead of just ignoring it like the previous government did. I believe this government has shown flexibility and strength to negotiate a change, to get a deal over the line. Workers in this country should not be made to wait any longer to get important rights. And it's worth reminding the House that this roadmap that we agreed earlier this year so shows the following laws should be in place by April 2026, doubling the maximum period of the protective award.

Day one paternity leave and unpaid parental leave. Whistleblowing protections. Establishing the Fair Work Agency. Day one statutory sick pay and entitlements for the first time, for millions of people who have been denied them to date. And finally simplifying the trade union recognition process. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are not minor or trivial measures. These are substantial changes that will improve the working lives of millions of people. We should be proud that it is a Labour government that is delivering on them, and we should be determined to deliver them by April 2026.

And of course, that is just the beginning. Genuine, flexible working and zero hours contracts banning fire and rehire. There is so much more in this bill that really matters to working people. And of course, there's much more beyond the bill reform of two parental leave and dealing with the epidemic of bogus self importance employment are of huge importance. And these are the sort of things that are radical, reforming Labour government needs to tackle because the world of work is changing. It's changing far faster than we can legislate for, but we can insulate our constituents against the worst excesses and unintended consequences of the tech revolution by putting security and fairness at the heart of every employment relationship.

And we need to do so now, because if we don't, not only will we fail to deliver on the promises we made, we've failed to stand up for the very people we were elected to represent. So I call on the Other place to agree with the will of the democratically elected chamber, and to finally deliver on our promise to make work pay.
19:54
Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson >> Liberal Democrat spokesperson Sarah Olney, thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today we're debating this bill for the fourth debating this bill for the fourth round of consideration of Lords Amendment. And I think this long and protracted process says a lot about the way the government has approached this legislation. We saw a bill that was initially put together at great speed, with much of the detail missing, then a long series of government amendments late in the process, and now a major last minute change on the compensation cap for unfair dismissal sprung on to businesses and Parliament.

Regardless of what one makes of the different measures in the legislation, I think most of us agree the process followed in designing it has been less than ideal. Having said that, let me reiterate what has always been the Liberal Democrat position on this bill. We support many of the aims of this legislation. We welcome expanding access to statutory sick pay, improving parental leave and taking steps to address the massive pay gap facing social care workers. We agree with giving those on zero hours contracts more certainty, even though we proposed what we view as a more practical and balanced way of doing so, and we are pleased to see a unified fair work agency, which we also called for as a way of empowering employees to exercise their rights without fear of any negative consequences.

However, we have made clear that we had significant worries about the specific way in which some of those measures would be implemented, and we repeatedly raised our concerns. That crucial detail was being left for secondary legislation. By far our biggest concern was the complete lack of clarity on unfair dismissal and probation periods, which is why we've worked in both houses to secure a vital concession, setting the qualifying period for unfair dismissal at six months. And we're proud that when some tried to brush aside the concerns of the business community and other sort of frustrate the process, it was the Liberal Democrats who secured this vital provision.

And that's the role of any responsible opposition party to engage constructively and achieve substantial improvements for the good of our country. And it couldn't be clearer that this fair and sensible shift will equally benefit businesses and workers. So many businesses I have spoken to have said that this is the single most meaningful change that could

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have been made to the bill. I'm happy to give. Way. To giving way. I'm just conscious. We're debating a particular point. Is she voting for or against the cap? Because that's the essence of what we're looking

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at today. I'm glad that the hon. Member raised that. I was coming to that raised that. I was coming to that in my speech. If he would listen with a with a little bit more attention, employers finally been attention, employers finally been given the necessary clarity to make hiring decisions with confidence, and we've avoided the danger of unnecessarily slowing down the labour market even further, which would have deprived so many people of vital employment opportunities. That's exactly what the Progressive Resolution Foundation think tank warned of when they said there was a risk that employers would be nervous about hiring new workers or offering shifts, and that would make life harder for job seekers.

Of course, as I pointed out last week, it is really disappointing that the government decided to muddy this improvement by simultaneously abolishing the cap on compensation for unfair dismissal. Employers were not in favour of scrapping the £118,000 cap and I once again point out that bringing a change like this at the last minute is not how you build trust between government and business. But I also note that employers and business groups have been equally clear that this last minute change must not stand in the way of the far more important changes secured with regard to the six month qualifying period.

Above all else, business values, pragmatism. And that's exactly why they want to see this breakthrough protected and enshrined in law. And that is what has guided our approach throughout. So I ask the Minister if she will confirm on the floor of the House that the government will conduct an assessment of the impact of the removal of the compensation cap, actively seeking views from businesses, as was indicated to the Liberal Democrats. In the other place, and on a broader level, will the Minister give a cast iron commitment that they will hold regular debates in both houses to ensure that Parliament can scrutinise what work is being done to consult businesses and workers on all relevant implementation aspects of this bill, and how is the government planning to support employers in order to ensure they have robust policies and practices in place to navigate these changes to the unfair dismissal regime? Lastly, to those in the Conservative Party who've been trying to sabotage his crucial compromise on the six month qualifying period, I simply say they are not acting in the interest of British businesses, but only in their own narrow party political

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self-interest. On that very point, does she believe it's totally pragmatic to believe it's totally pragmatic to have disregarded her objections to the removal of the cap in return for additional places for the Liberal Democrats in the House of

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Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords? Yes. It's so revealing of the Conservative Party mindset that they can't believe. What I'm they can't believe. What I'm actually saying is the reason for our change, and they assume instead that we must have sought some benefit for ourselves. It is so revealing that that's what the Tories do. It beggars belief that the Conservatives, having hammered businesses and government, are now doing everything in their power to undermine UK plc from the opposition benches.

I note the government has taken steps to improve the clarity of the legislation with regard to seasonal work, introducing measures which will ensure that businesses relying on seasonal work and bodies representing seasonal workers will be properly consulted when secondary legislation is drawn up. Many businesses, such as the farming and agricultural sector, as well as thousands of pubs, cafes and restaurants, depend upon seasonal workers and any obstacles to hiring them could have a significant impact, exacerbating the long list of challenges they already face.

So we must ensure they are supported as much as possible. Madam Deputy Speaker, Small businesses in our local towns and communities are struggling. They're struggling with the government's unfair national insurance rise, higher export costs due to Brexit, red tape and a business rate system which is not fit for purpose. Struggling businesses means fewer jobs and lower pay, so it is vital that we take steps to support high street businesses and all those who rely on them. It is now time we listen to the business community, which is telling us that the best way forward is to look for balanced solutions through the secondary legislation.

Put an end to the uncertainty in order to avoid losing the six month qualifying period that we were happy to have helped to secure. Continuing to delay the passage of this bill at this late and protracted stage would risk further uncertainty for businesses, particularly SMEs, as well as jeopardising significant changes benefiting workers, including expanding protections against workplace harassment and improving paternity leave rights. So I urge members to be pragmatic, provide clarity to businesses and workers alike regarding an implementation timeline. It's critical in providing a stable operating framework so that businesses can plan ahead, and we should now be working together to ensure that this legislation can be implemented to benefit businesses and workers alike.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Lee Barron.

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Thank you. Can I first of all start by

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Can I first of all start by pointing out my proud membership of the Communication Workers Union just so I can get that onto the just so I can get that onto the record. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I start off by saying, before I get into the issues around before I get into the issues around the amendment, that enough is enough? An elected Lords must not enough? An elected Lords must not get away of the democratic will of the people. A manifesto commitment to deliver this bill and make work pay.

My constituents have waited long enough, worked long enough, put up with it for long enough. Every delay means someone going to work ill. Every delay means another zero hours week. Every delay means bad. Practice is once again getting away with it. And if the issue around the amendments talks about a cap, but we've been here before, we've lifted caps before. Caps on compensation don't exist in cases of discrimination claims. Now, there's been no there's been no evidence to suggest that they've all of a sudden then got out of control, gone absolutely mad.

They haven't. So we've been here before. We've lifted caps before to turn around and send a clear message in relation to what it is, that what it is that we want to build and in relation to some of the other clauses, Madam speaker, on the amendments, where they're going to cap a £75,000 fine for denying trade unions access, what sort of cap is that? What would that do to global giants? We saw what Amazon did to GMB to frustrate their organising.

And why should we allow big businesses to pay to break the law? Frankly we shouldn't. And on guaranteed hours there must be no loopholes, no cutting hours for a few weeks to dodge the law. A simple 12 week test, a simple average of hours, fair, clear and enforceable. This bill is about common sense at work. If you're sick, you shouldn't be dragged into poverty. If you work regular hours, you should get a proper contract. And if you're unfairly treated, then there should be consequences.

This bill was promised. This bill was elected. This bill was voted

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for. This bill should now pass. David Simmonds. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. We're addressing the specific. Issue of. The removal of a limit on the

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The removal of a limit on the cap. And of course, whilst this is going to have a big impact on our businesses, it also has a huge impact on our public sector. Large organisations that employ significant numbers of higher paid professionals like the NHS, are professionals like the NHS, are going to see their insurance costs driven up significantly by this measure. So it's even more surprising that no consultation or impact assessment is before the House when we're asked to make this decision this evening.

But when we reflect on the real world impact of this, alongside the package of measures in a bill which worthily deserves to be scrapped in its entirety, I'm one of the most proud achievements of the last Conservative government was that when we left office, youth unemployment was half what we inherited from the previous Labour government. A huge share of those 4 million new jobs went to younger people. Today, the numbers not in education, employment or training have hit over a million.

And the Resolution Foundation on this specifically said that young people are bearing the brunt of Britain's jobs downturn, and most of us will
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20:05
Mark Sewards Portrait Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)
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Yeah. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'll be brief. I proudly refer members to my register of interests. I am a proud register of interests. I am a proud member of several trade unions, and I've been I have indeed received money from trade unions to remove the Conservatives from power. And speaking of removing the Conservatives from power, on the 4th of September, I proudly voted, along with the vast majority of people in this House, to remove hereditary peers from the other place.

I did so because I do not believe that individuals should be able to shape our laws purely because of the families that they were born into. Whatever the arguments put forward on the Employment Rights Bill amendments, we are here today because hereditary peers stopped the progress of the bill through the other place. The simple fact is, if you were to remove the hereditary

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peers that voted. We're not debating hereditary peers. We're debating the amendments to the Employment Rights

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amendments to the Employment Rights Bill. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The votes in the other place only serve to strengthen my resolve that we must get this bill through we must get this bill through Parliament and strengthen the rights of workers. I will.

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rights of workers. I will. The hon. Gentleman, for giving way. When I look across to the other house, across the political divide, I see captains of industry, people that have led businesses small and large. Speaking to the

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hon. Gentleman, does he see any merit in their arguments? I thank him for his intervention.

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I thank him for his intervention. We will always pay attention to the arguments that are made in the other place. That will place more other place. That will place more credibility, more credence on those arguments made by life peers, people who have been appointed because of their expertise and not appointed because of the family they were born into. However, I appreciate the point on that has appreciate the point on that has been well made. Madam Deputy Speaker and I will move on.

So, along with the fact that this government has already done in good faith compromises on the Employment Rights Bill with trade unions, with businesses and those business businesses and their representative organisations have welcomed the things that we have put in the bill and called on us to pass it today. We were elected on a promise to get this bill passed into law. Fire and rehire must be banned. Exploitative zero hour contracts must be ruled out. Day one rights for parental and bereavement leave must be rolled out and sick pay must be improved.

So whichever way the House votes on these amendments today, I implore the hereditary peers in the other place to do the

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right thing. Get out of the way. pay. Thank you very much, Thomas. Deputy Speaker.

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Deputy Speaker. Well, the impacts of this bill in its current form are already being felt. 71% of businesses have raised serious concerns, with over 90% of small business owners expressing deep worries, resulting expressing deep worries, resulting in 67% of companies preparing to halt recruitment. But we already know that the government does not know that the government does not understand business. This has been demonstrated very clearly through the string of damaging policies trailing behind them from National Insurance changes that are crippling the hospitality sector, to the family farm tax that is undermining our national food security.

And aspects of this bill are no exception, prime example being the complete removal of the Employment Tribunal cap on unfair dismissal. Compensatory awards. As of June 2025, 515,000 open claims are in the system and the numbers were continuing are continuing to rise. The employment tribunal system is inundated. It's overwhelmed, debilitated by cases, leaving thousands facing intolerable delays. But rather than addressing the issue, action that addressing the issue, action that would significantly help working people support, I will give way.
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Bradley Thomas Portrait Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)
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I thank the hon. Member for giving way. I wonder if he accepts, as been drawn to the attention of this House by a number of colleagues, that actually the current system has a perverse incentive to push people into a more complicated tribunal system where they seek to identify discrimination instead of the simpler system of unfair dismissal. Because of the the cap that is in place. And actually, this measure is more likely to keep claims within the simpler, more streamlined and quicker system of simply unfair dismissal, thereby helping with the very problem we have all accepted is real here.



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Well, just about, Madam Deputy Speaker, to get to the point that I wanted to make, which is that wanted to make, which is that removal of this cap will make matters significantly worse because, to put it plainly, it will open the floodgates for senior executives to floodgates for senior executives to pursue very large, multi-million pound claims that will further congest the courts and for and congest the courts and for and because for many companies, the. Allow me to finish the point if you Allow me to finish the point if you would if he would.

The dismissal process for senior executives is fundamentally different to that of other employees, and that's a result of strategic complexities relating to board involvement in many cases. So unlike the structured procedures that are applied to the wider workforce, senior leaders are seldom afforded opportunities such as performance improvement plans before removal. So under this bill that creates a difference, a significant liability, and establishes a direct financial incentive for very large executives to pursue employment claims. I will give way.

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At that point. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the compensation at the moment for compensation at the moment for racial discrimination, for sexual discrimination, for disability discrimination, for whistleblowers discrimination, for whistleblowers is uncapped? And if he is aware of that, what's the difference between that and being unfairly dismissed?

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that and being unfairly dismissed? The point that I'm making, which is that because currently there is no financial incentive for very senior executives who can't exercise any leverage over things such as pay equity, this risks clogging up the system, with large UK corporations CEOs earning a median of over £4 million per year, compared to the current £118,000 cap on unfair dismissal claims. High earners have little incentive to lodge claims. Remove the cap and that incentive becomes glaringly obvious.

The idea that removing the cap. I'm going to make progress now. The idea that removing the cap will lead to anything other than a surge in cases is pure fantasy. This lack of understanding Madam Deputy Speaker shows why the government must listen to those who know how business works, must recognise the devastating consequences that this bill will have for companies and, crucially, for workers. Rather than branding themselves as champions of working people whilst advancing policies that benefit only high flyers, the government should. I

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will give way. To my friend and watching colleagues opposite shaking their colleagues opposite shaking their heads as my hon. Friend lays out the blindingly obvious. Goes to the blindingly obvious. Goes to show why something of a measure introduced at the very last minute in ping pong is inappropriate, and precisely why the House of Lords is right to say that we need to make sure we consider this fully, because it's quite obvious that members opposite. They don't want

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to understand it, but they implications. Yeah. I thank my hon. Friend. He makes

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I thank my hon. Friend. He makes a point, eloquently as usual. In short, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government needs to abandon this if government needs to abandon this if they're really on the side of workers, the best thing they can do is particularly abandon this point,

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abandon this bill in its entirety. Yeah, yeah. Three Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to be called to

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I'm grateful to be called to speak in this debate, and I draw attention to my membership of the GMB and my chair of his parliamentary group and Unremunerated role. This bill has been the subject of 14 months of debate and scrutiny, and it should have received royal assent months ago. So let's not beat behind the beat around the bush about why we are here tonight. The bill has been deliberately delayed by some members in the other place who disagree with the principle of what the Bill seeks to achieve and the electoral mandate that stands behind it.

Now, the amendment that came back from the Lords last week represents the last gasp of that approach, which tests the limits of the democratic decision making process and a constitutional relationship that binds these two houses. This is no longer solely about workers rights. It has become a challenge by unelected peers to the primacy of the commons, and a

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greater legitimacy that our constituents temporarily lend to us. I give way to him. Grateful to the hon. Gentleman

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Grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. 12 months ago, he and I sat on the Bill committee, and this is the first time this and this is the first time this chamber has had the opportunity to debate this measure, courtesy of the House of Lords. They've done us

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the House of Lords. They've done us a favour, haven't they? Yes. Last week.

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I enjoyed many hours in the hon. Member's proximity, and he will know that the only reason why we are here today, considering this measure at short time, is because the bill has been so delayed, so close to the April implementation period, thanks to the actions of his party and the final proof about the. In a moment in final proof of the implications of the constitutional limits of what we are now being asked to consider, can be found in the fact that the opposition's amendment last week was only carried by the votes of conservative, hereditary peers who owe their positions to an accident

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of birth. And I give way to the hon. Member. I thank. The. hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he understand, though, that

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Does he understand, though, that it's his government that have yet to abolish the hereditary peers? And if all. I'm not having a debate on

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I'm not having a debate on hereditary members of the House of Lords, we are debating specifically

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Lords, we are debating specifically the Lords message on amendments to the Employment Rights Bill. Laurence Turner. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And if the amendment we are considering tonight is not struck from the bill, the Lords amendment, then it will have two effects. Immediately it would collapse the agreement between employers and union representatives. This is not some reasonable call for a review. It strikes out the changes to the compensation cap. That was a key component of that agreement. Now they know that it is a nonsense to call for a review of the legislation that would if the legislation itself has been carried, and therefore the effects of that review cannot be given force.

Secondly, if not removed, the amendment from the Lords so delays the bill that April's extension of statutory sick pay and parental leave to millions of people, some

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on the very lowest incomes, falls into down. I'll give way one last time. Caerphilly to what he said, but

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Caerphilly to what he said, but was. Some problem and it didn't quite go through. I think he was talking go through. I think he was talking about the fact that actually there would be a delay because of the consultation. Yet in 1999 and 2015, consultation. Yet in 1999 and 2015, there was a consultation on this very thing about having a cap. Why hasn't this government done that?

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In his opinion. He'd been listening carefully. He would have known that. I'm referring to the review which is called for in the amendment which came to us from the Lords. But that's not all that's contained in amendments. It seeks to strike out the powers to change the compensation cap. So it is a nonsense to say, on the one hand, that this bill must halt in its tracks while there is a review when the powers itself are removed. Madam Deputy Speaker, those delays to April's implementation of fundamental rights cannot be suffered.

As the employers representatives have said today, we are out of time. The opposition to this bill is exhausted and the Commons mandate must be respected. Parliament must carry this bill. Parliament must carry this bill.
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Jerome Mayhew Portrait Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)
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I'm very grateful for that direction, Madam Deputy Speaker. So let's move to amendment 120 N so this is a major new policy. We don't have to argue whether £118,000 cap is a good idea or a bad idea. I think the cap is a good idea. What this amendment seeks to clarify, though, is the process by which the government has decided to to impose this in the bill because it wasn't part of the manifesto, it wasn't part of the bill, it wasn't part of the bill Committee.

It's just been inserted at the last moment in ping pong, and there's been no risk assessment, there's been no impact, there's been no consultation. So if you actually look at the amendment, Madam Deputy Speaker, it doesn't it doesn't put the government off course. All it asks the government to do is within three months of royal assent being given to this bill to conduct a review of the limit imposed by this section and the amount of compensation awarded and that review, that consultation only has to consult employers, organisations, trade unions.

You'd think they'd be in favour of that. Organising organisations representing employment law practitioners, practitioners and any other persons that the Secretary of State considers appropriate. Now, if you choose, if one chooses, if the government chooses even to implement policy on the hoof, the very least thing they can do is undertake a consultation

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that they should have carried out. Minister. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Madam.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to hon. Members across the House for their contributions to and their contributions to and throughout the bill's passage. It's important when there is a finding of unfair dismissal at tribunal, that the claimant is fairly compensated for the loss they've suffered. We also believe that the cap on compensatory awards for unfair dismissal incentivises unfair dismissal incentivises claimants to construct complex cases which allege unfair dismissal and discrimination, to access uncapped compensation compensation, as I referenced in my introductory remarks and perhaps the hon.

Members opposite didn't hear by removing the compensatory award for unfair dismissal claims, that incentive will be lessens by removing the cap two. The government will also deter employers from treating the cost of dismissing employees unfairly as part of business as usual, instead ensuring employees who face significant losses as a result of being unfairly dismissed are fairly compensated. Compensation for unfair dismissal is awarded only where a tribunal finds in favour of the claimant. Claims that do not have merit will not secure any compensatory award with or without a cap, and it is not the case that lifting the cap will mean that compensatory awards start from a blank sheet of paper and become impossible to anticipate.

Tribunals have well established ways to calculate the compensation that might be awarded for particular types of losses resulting from unfair dismissal. I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for her support and as she referenced and will have heard my introductory remarks, we will publish an
20:21
Kate Dearden Portrait Kate Dearden MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )
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economic assessment in due course and I'm always available for further discussion. Turning to the further discussion. Turning to the members opposite, Madam Deputy Speaker, they would oppose. They've opposed this at every stage, no matter what the issue was today, matter what the issue was today, they would oppose it again. Instead, both businesses and unions have both businesses and unions have shown leadership, and they and Parliament should respect their Parliament should respect their voice. The tripartite agreement was forged through dialogue with those who lived the realities of our workplaces every single day.

That engagement agreement included a package conducted in good faith and goodwill, and again, I thank them for it. The aim of this government is absolutely clear. To conclude this bill, some millions of British workers gain new rights while businesses can prepare for change with certainty. From this side of the House, we send a clear message to the Other place to now let this bill, one that delivers on multiple manifesto commitments and has a clear electoral mandate, to pass any further delay risks, leaving workers without protections and businesses without clarity.

We now strive to conclude this process and deliver the change Britain needs to make work pay. We cannot build a strong economy with people in insecure work. We are strengthening the foundations of our economy and improving living standards. And this bill and all our work across government, is the foundation for building an economy that works for everyone. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their amendment 129 to Commons amendment amendment 129 to Commons amendment 120 G and their amendments 120 to 120 G and their amendments 120 to 120 S to Commons amendment 120 H. As many as of that opinion, say

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As many as of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary. No. No.

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No. Is Is as on the Order Paper. As many as are

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of that opinion. Say aye. of the contrary. No. No. The tellers for the ayes are Gregor Poynton and Deirdre Costigan the tellers for the noes, sir.

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For.
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Order, Order, order!

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Order, order!

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Order, order! The ayes to the right. 311. The noes to the left. 96.

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Okay. That. The ayes to the right for 311. The noes to the left were 96. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it unlock. Minister, to move that a

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committee be appointed to draw up committee. Be appointed to draw up the

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Be appointed to draw up the reason to be assigned to the Lord for disagreeing to the amendment for disagreeing to the amendment that Kate Dearden Nesil Caliskan to Jeevun Sandher Tom Rutland Antonia Bance, Andrew Griffith and Susan Bance, Andrew Griffith and Susan Murray the members of the Committee, that Kate Dearden be the chair of the Committee. The three be the

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quorum of the Committee that the Committee do withdraw immediately. The question is that the Committee be appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing. So Lords Amendment 120 N to Commons. Amendment 120 G and Lords Amendment 120 to 120 S to Commons. Amendment 120 H that Kate Dearden Nesil Caliskan doctor Jeevun Sandher Tom Rutland Antonia Bance Andrew Griffith and Susan Murray be members of the Committee, that Kate Dearden be the chair of the Committee, that three be the quorum of the Committee.

That the Committee do withdraw immediately, as many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. That concludes consideration of the Lords message on the Employment Rights Bill.

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Industry and Exports (Financial Assistance) Bill Second Reading.

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Assistance) Bill Second Reading. With. Now the question is that the

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bill be now read a second time, Minister. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be now read a second time. Madam Deputy Speaker, we want businesses to grow, innovate, expand, invest, find new markets here and overseas, develop new products and new services, and bring them successfully to market. That needs two forms of financial support, often from government. First of all, grants and secondly, loans. And that's why this bill builds on two different acts of Parliament.

First of all, the Industrial Development Act of 1982, which provides grants to industry in the UK, and secondly, the Export and Investment Guarantees Act of 1991, which enables financial support by means of investment finance. As Trade Minister, of course, I am ambitious for all UK companies to try and get more of them to export. It is a shame that only 1 in 10 British businesses export, compared to three out of ten French businesses, or four out of ten German businesses. If we could match the ambition in other countries, that will be a significant boost to the UK economy.

Now. All right.

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It's nice to be loved, isn't it, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this bill, but bringing forward this bill, but also the point around exports? One of the things that the world leading ceramics industry in Stoke leading ceramics industry in Stoke on Trent tell me is that they used to be a fund that would allow companies to get help with the cost of going to trade expositions or be of going to trade expositions or be part of trade delegations, so that they could take their wares around the world to try and get those all important exports.

But that fund no longer exists. If that fund would be brought back. I know ceramic companies in Stoke would appreciate the opportunity to be part of the exports this country is trying to do. Is that something he can take back and look at?
20:42
Chris Bryant Portrait Legislation: Industry and Exports (Financial Assistance) Bill: Second Reading Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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Well, there are funds and quite often, especially when there's a new free trade agreement, as in in relation to India, for instance, at relation to India, for instance, at the moment we've helped quite a lot of businesses who have in the in the beauty industry, which I know he knows a lot about, have been have gone to the a recent exhibition in India because we're taking the tariff or the India is going to be taking the tariff down under the FTA from, I think, 20 or so percent down to zero.

And that is a real, really big opportunity for British businesses. So yes, there are funds available. Sometimes I will have a look at the issue of how the ceramics industry in particular is treated. As he knows, I would like to establish stronger support for the ceramic industry in general, because it's one of the things that I think that we should be rightly proud of. And indeed, one of the things that I, as he also knows I'm looking at is, is the presence that we as government Ministers give to other government Ministers.

I think we could perhaps be a bit more ambitious about making sure that this is something that people would really want to have, and maybe is something that comes from one of our one of our creative industries, such as ceramics. Now, as I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, free trade agreements can get rid of tariffs. And that is obviously a very important part of enabling more exports. But and often we can also do a great deal about trying to get rid of non-tariff barriers that exist in many countries around the world, but often export ambition even from companies that would like to export needs, financial assistance as well.

And that's what UK export Finance is precisely. Therefore, now he was there first, I'm afraid. And then and then the hon. Gentleman afterwards.

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First of all, can I very much welcome what the Minister put forward. And, and he has very clearly underlined the issue that clearly underlined the issue that all parts of the United Kingdom can benefit. We're very fortunate, as the Minister will know, in Northern the Minister will know, in Northern Ireland, to have a very strong agri food sector, which is promoting itself wherever it can across Europe, across the mainland and Europe, across the mainland and further afield. The defence sector is also active and government's help here to create extra procurement and extra apprenticeships is very much welcome.

But there are small companies, they small SMEs who are mostly involved in engineering. I believe that they are perhaps going to be a grip and an organisation of of businesses that could do more. Can I just ask the Minister very kindly, if you could give us some idea what can be done for them, because we would like to make sure that they're encouraged, first of

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all, to to be involved and also encourage to the export as well. Thank you. He's obviously absolutely right that the vast majority of the companies that we will be talking about will be SMEs, and 88% of the companies who benefit from UK companies who benefit from UK export finance are SMEs. That that's why we're bringing forward this bill, because we're getting very much to the limit of what is allowed under current legislation. allowed under current legislation. So we need to expand that.

And I've specifically spoken to UK Export Finance about looking at new ways of supporting SMEs. And sometimes I think the the retail banking sector in the UK also needs to understand better how it can support small and medium sized enterprises to export around the world. One of the things, in my own small way I've been trying to do is when I've been abroad for trade missions, I've been doing a supermarket sweep to see what, whether Rose's Lime marmalade or Walker's biscuits or Marmite or Iron Brew or Penderyn whisky or whatever it may be, is available around the world.

Because the more we can encourage people to export, the more likely those businesses are to prosper. One of the advantages in Northern Ireland in particular, of course, is that because of the Windsor framework, they have an opportunity to enter into an EU market much more readily than elsewhere. And one of the sadnesses of Brexit is that 16,000 fewer businesses in the UK now export. And that is largely because they've, they've given up on on Europe. And that's one of the things I radically want to change.

And I can see the hon. Gentleman is practically pregnant with a question.

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It's always good to hear about a raise in the availability of raise in the availability of financial assistance to industry. But in the context of Northern Ireland, the minister's referred to Ireland, the minister's referred to the Windsor framework. But one of the drawbacks of the Windsor framework is that Northern Ireland framework is that Northern Ireland is subject to EU state aid rules. So can I seek an assurance from the So can I seek an assurance from the Minister that if, for example, as I have in my constituency of orange bus manufacturer, who sells buses to Germany, that they will not be disadvantaged by the cap of state aid rules in comparison to a competitor bus manufacturer in another part of the of the United Kingdom, where there isn't a state aid limitation.



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Well, I mean, this is one of the problems, isn't it, about Brexit, which is that it has provided a which is that it has provided a variety of different sets of rules for different parts of the United Kingdom. And that was always one of the problems that was inherent. Of the problems that was inherent. Of course, Northern Ireland voted against Brexit, but and now we're trying to make it work in as best trying to make it work in as best we possibly can.

But he's absolutely right. Of course, there are going to be problems under are going to be problems under state aid rules in relation to some businesses in Northern Ireland. And and that's we're trying to do two things at the same time. We're trying to make sure that the Windsor framework is adhered to, but we're also trying to make sure that we have an internal market, a single UK internal market. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, the bill is a short one. It just manages to get onto a second page, but it does some important things.

First of all, it increases the Industrial Development Act limit on financial assistance from £12 billion to £20 billion. Secondly, it raises the amount that the Secretary of State may increase the limit from £1 billion to £1.5 billion. And that's something that he can do under the original act four times. And thirdly, it amends the Export and Investment Guarantee Act 1991 to increase the commitment level to £160 billion from roughly £84 billio And fourthly, it allows the limits to be increased by increments of up to £15 billion by Statutory Instrument, by secondary legislation.

And then finally, and this is perhaps the single most important and most useful thing to the ordinary punter out there. It changes the the act, the Export and Investment Guarantee Act. So the. The limit is expressed in terms of pound sterling, in other words common parlance rather than special drawing rights, which I think have confused an awful lot of people for a long time. And if I just give a very few instances, Madam Deputy Speaker, of why all of this matters, £14.5 billion of UK export finance support last year was supporting was used to support 70,000 jobs and adding £5.4 billion to GDP in the UK including across several key industrial sectors like clean energy, advanced manufacturing, life sciences and automotive.

Of Friend. to.

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See the Minister setting out what this bill will do and how it will contribute to business, creative industries, but creative industries, but particularly in fashion. Young designers struggle to access international markets and exporting international markets and exporting finance. So could he lay out what we're going to do to support creative industries like fashion?

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So we don't lose them in the UK? So she makes an extremely good point. And the creative industry is, of course, one of our eight key of course, one of our eight key industrial sectors that we're very keen to promote. The Music Export Guarantee Scheme is specifically there to ensure that a whole wide variety of acts are able to tour around the world. We also need to sort out the issue with the European Union around British acts being able to tour effectively and cost effectively around Europe, but there's bands from Scotland, from Wales, from every part of England have been able to access that, that finance.

And it's a key part of what we do. Similarly in fashion, I know you try to do your bit, Madam Deputy Speaker, but so does so to all other members, I'm sure, wanting to promote British fashion, but importantly, the Department for culture, Media and Sport provides support for new Gen. And if you go to London Fashion Week, quite a lot of that is supported by either the Department for Business and Trade or by the Department for culture, Media and Sport and many of the new gen designers have gone on to great success in the market, which is important.

And similarly, we also try to make sure that we have presence in other fashion weeks, such as in Paris and New York, and and we provide other finance as well. So it's a wide variety of measures, some of which come under the measures that we're talking about today. But I can assure her that the creative industries are very much part of what we consider. And I was struck in some, oh, I'm not allowed to refer to those matters until tomorrow. I'm very

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grateful to the hon. Gentleman for shutting me up. Believe it or not. Over 30 years ago.

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I was the Minister for Fashion and Regional Policy, and these things go round in circle. And I things go round in circle. And I warn the Minister with some experience of this. A lot of these companies were caught in a sort of companies were caught in a sort of catch 22. If there were two successful, the Department of Trade and Industry wouldn't let them be and Industry wouldn't let them be helped. And if they weren't successful enough, there was always a risk they might go bust.

So how is he going to hit the sweet spot and make sure that we direct the money where it's most needed?

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I hope I can find his sweet spot, and as he is such a dedicated and as he is such a dedicated follower of fashion, I he makes a very fair point. Which is which is the classic problem for government when it comes to any industrial support, whether it's a loan or a grant. Because if the business is grant. Because if the business is so successful, then why does it need additional financial support? And that's why the way we have And that's why the way we have structured through the two acts of Parliament that I'm talking about, UK Export finance, actually makes money for the British government.

It's based on loans being made at normal rates. But, but, but and sometimes it manages to lever in retail finance as well, which is a really important part of the work that it does. But and sometimes when we give a grant, we have to make sure that there are set series of things that this is seeking to achieve. So, for instance, the money that has been I think it's £128 million that has been given to BioNTech is specifically designed to develop two new R&D hubs producing 400 new high paid jobs in the life sciences sector, and also, incidentally, being able to tackle things like skin conditions and melanoma, because that's one of the things that they're working on.

So he's right that there's a difficult moment that often comes. But one of the complaints that I've had from quite a few sectors is that the UK, it can be a bit slow on deciding when we're going to support somebody, and I want to be able to speed that up as much as possible. But as I said to the hon. Gentleman, to the two hon. Gentleman over there, I think the key to this is that a lot of what we're trying to do is support SMEs.

Yes, of course there are going to be massive contracts, such as the £3.5 billion expression of interest that we've allowed for the building of the new Dubai airport, so that British businesses will be able to put in for some of the tenders that will be coming, coming from that, which may be for hangar doors or maybe for building additional facilities or for maintenance services or whatever it may be, or architect architectural designs and so on. But in the main, as I say, 88% of what we're talking about with UK export Finance is for SMEs.

Two other points, Madam Deputy Speaker, and then I'll come to a close. Through existing provisions in the Industrial Development Act, the British Business Bank's Northern Powerhouse Investment Fund two has directly invested £115 million into over 300 small businesses and similarly in the Midlands, the Midlands Engine Investment Fund two has launched a £400 million fund to drive sustainable economic growth by supporting innovation and creating local opportunity for new and growing businesses. Madam Deputy Speaker, I get a feeling from the chamber that everybody's going to be supporting this piece of legislation.

I think it has, broadly speaking, cross-party support. I think it's really important that we get this on the statute book soon enough, and to be able to provide that support in the next financial year to the businesses in the UK so that we can prosper and we can grow the economy and protect jobs.
20:55
Harriett Baldwin Portrait Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)
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The question is that the bill be now read a second time. I call Dame Harriett Baldwin shadow Minister. >> Well, thank you very much, Madam

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Well, thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm delighted to be responding on behalf of the Conservatives this evening who have Conservatives this evening who have always championed British businesses. We believe very much in the ingenuity of our entrepreneurs, the skill of our engineers and the global reputation of our exporters. And the legislation today amends legislation dating from 1983 and 1991, and we believe that time and time again, our companies have shown that with the right conditions, they can compete and win on the world stage.

So updating these pieces of legislation ensures that the government has the tools to support our industries and exporters, and we should take pride in the extraordinary success of British exporters. The latest UK Export Finance Annual report shows the scale of their achievements, whether it's Rolls-Royce and Airbus who've together secured guarantees worth 165 million for supplying Ethiopian Airlines, 102 million for Avalon in Ireland and 66 million for Emirates in Dubai. These give flavour to the house of the kind of deals that can be supported through this.

Finance and defence exports, of course, remain significant too, with BAE systems MBDa receiving over 120 million per major contract, including support for the very important air defence systems in Poland. These figures, I think, demonstrate the global demand for British engineering, for aerospace and for our defence expertise. But as the Minister pointed out in his opening remarks, beyond those headline numbers, it's also 80% of firms supported by UK Export Finance, which are small and medium sized businesses, and they often supply into these more global contracts and their innovation, their resilience.

They are the backbone of our export economy and they also deserve support and visibility. The UK has a leading export and finance sector, and it can usually cover the commercial risks involved in exports. And so UK export finance should really only be deployed when there isn't a private sector solution available. Generally, we're in favour overall of reducing subsidy rather than increasing them, so we don't necessarily support additional taxpayer funding for industrial strategy until the government gets the fundamentals right.

Energy prices, tax and regulation. Because without tackling those basics, no amount of subsidy will ever deliver the competitiveness that our businesses need. So I've got a few questions for the Minister. Can he assure the House that UK export finance will continue only to be deployed where there is no private sector funding that can be secured? And if this bill is to meet its aims, export assistance must be spread across the region. We saw in Santander's recent autumn trade barometer that three quarters of businesses that you want, targeted export support, are actually beyond our capital.

Optimism is high in sectors such as technology and media, but firms in Scotland and those in energy, construction and engineering are much more cautious. So I think there are regional disparities in economic outlook which the government address must address. So UK export finance, which is there to guarantee exports when the private sector can't, you'd expect it to focus on countries where the credit risks are higher. So again a question for the Minister what new markets will this funding likely be used for? Will some of the additional capacity be reserved for small and medium sized businesses? And can he reassure the House that none of this finance would ever be used to support export to countries that could potentially allow the goods to get around sanctions to Russia, and it's not being used to export to any country that would wish us harm.

Can he also reassure the House that as the Foreign Office undergoes a restructure, our fine network of embassies and high commissions will be made able and aware to make the most of this export finance opportunity and have the right teams in place to support UK plc. So those are my opening questions for the Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
20:59
Ben Coleman Portrait Ben Coleman MP (Chelsea and Fulham, Labour)
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Ben Coleman. >> Thank you very much. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm most. >> Grateful to the Minister for his statement. I hugely welcome this government's determination to government's determination to increase trade, especially in the aftermath of Brexit. And that's what's expanded. That's what it's all about expanding and clarifying the spending limit for UK export finance, because UK Export Finance has, as we've heard, a very proud history of boosting British exports, of supporting thousands of companies, tens of thousands of British jobs.

And the bill we're discussing today means they're going to be able to do even more. You know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm delighted to say I've had the privilege of seeing UK Export Finance in action at first hand in my capacity as trade envoy to Morocco and Francophone West Africa. Just last month, I had the privilege of heading the UK delegation to the Francophone Western Central African Forum in Togo, and this was attended by nearly a thousand people from business and government from the UK and ten rapidly growing African countries, all of them seeking new opportunities for trade and economic partnership.

And UK Export Finance did an absolutely brilliant job of organising this event. And in my opening speech to the forum, I was really proud to be able to set out a UK approach which is based on co-production rather than extraction, an approach based on mutual respect so different from what they've learned to expect from perhaps other countries in the past. And ambassadors have been mentioned, I very much appreciated having UK Export Finance expert support alongside our ambassadors in the bilateral meetings that I was able to hold with the president of the Council of Ministers of Togo and with representatives of the Government of Cote d'Ivoire, of Senegal, of Cameroon, the Republic of Congo, where we explored, explored numerous opportunities to go further on trade.

For example, electricity networks or the. The Minister already mentioned Scottish whisky that also came up. Now we have UK Export Finance building on what it achieved. It's hard work. It's going to mean that the forum is going to turn into investable projects, which will in turn translate into jobs and export and impact. And the theme of the forum was success breeds success. And I'm delighted that through this bill today, we're enabling UK Export Finance to create even more success in the future for the UK economy and our trading partners.

You know, Madam Deputy Speaker, closer to home, we should also point out that UK Export Finance has, of course, an important role in increasing our trade with the massive European Union market on our doorstep. And the disaster, the absolute disaster of Brexit has damaged our economy hugely. More than 16,000 small and medium sized enterprises have given up trading with the European Union since it happened. We've lost billions in tax revenue for our NHS and schools. The idiot comment from the previous Prime Minister that the NHS would get money from Brexit was totally the what had happened was totally the opposite.

We've lost billions in tax revenue for the NHS. So alongside my determination to increase trade with Africa, I have high hopes of increasing trade with the European Union, as do many, many people on this side of the House. There is no single part of the house which has a monopoly on wishing sensibly to trade more with the European Union. So the government's reset is very welcome and I'm keen for it to be even more ambitious. We have to see, we have to recognise there is no swifter route to growth than getting rid of Brexit red tape.

So I welcome it that the UK and the EU are currently negotiating an agreement to ditch much of the Brexit bureaucracy that's hit our food and drink exports and imports, and I hope this will lead to lower food prices and new job opportunities for the British people. And I'd like to see us go even further. For example, let's boost our manufacturing industry by seeking mutual recognition with the EU of conformity assessments. Let's boost our services sector by seeking mutual recognition of professional qualifications.

Yes, happily.

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I thank the hon. Member for giving way. He talks effusively giving way. He talks effusively about the benefits of our biggest trading partner and of Europe and the disaster of Brexit. I wonder, would he agree with me that we should be forging a new customs union as soon as possible?

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Yeah. I'm immensely surprised to hear that intervention. Almost surprised that intervention. Almost surprised I was to see you put forward by the hon. Members opposite, put forward the customs union idea the other day. We have struck a deal with the EU. We struck one last May. We need to implement that deal. We need to see through the deal that we're negotiating for food and drink. We need to talk about youth experience and the whole range of other things that were there.

Let's do those. Let's deliver on what we promised. Let's implement what we promised. Let's build the trust. Because I sat down the other day with about a dozen ambassadors from EU countries. And let me tell you, there is very little appetite for Britain going through into a customs union until we have shown that we can be trusted and deliver on what we are all ready, promising to deliver. So yes, that sort of comment may arouse some people's interest, but it is not at this stage the best thing for Britain to plough forward in that direction.

Let's deliver on the deals we have. Let's not throw them aside. Let's not reject them. Let's not say they're pointless. They will deliver jobs and lower prices for British people. And that's what we need to see in the aftermath of Brexit. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, as this government seeks every opportunity to enhance trade and economic growth, ensuring that UK export finance has the resources it needs underpin export growth is the absolutely right way forward and the winners will be businesses in every part of our

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country. Thank you. Yes. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Joshua Reynolds.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to be clear from the outset that we as Liberal Democrats support this bill and we support support this bill and we support this bill because we recognise that British businesses need backing to compete globally. Both the compete globally. Both the industrial support package and the export finance package have got vital roles to play when it comes vital roles to play when it comes to that and the increases that are proposed in this bill represent such a major expansion in government capacity.

It gives us the opportunity to really ensure that this expansion serves the priorities that we have as a country, supporting small businesses, driving green growth, and maintaining proper democratic oversight of what's in front of us. At present, however, small business owners have told me that the system that is in place simply doesn't really work for them. That's because the UK export finance processes are designed for larger transactions for larger businesses. Those already exporting. You look at the criteria that UK Export Finance have, and it says very clearly that in any one of the last three years, at least 20% of your annual turnover needs to be made up from export sales or in any of the last three years, at least 5% of that turnover made up from export sales.

But it's these thresholds that mean businesses trying to break into the export market or those growing still quite modest export activity cannot access support. So as we expand UK Export Finance capacity, let's make sure that the commitment is made, that it's not just about bigger deals, bigger companies, but it's about making UK export finance work for smaller businesses. The backbone of British exports with simpler application processes, lower eligibility criteria for SMEs and dedicated support teams from those that really understand SMEs the best.

We also need to understand, as the member from Chelsea and Fulham has has outlined, the elephant in the room and that is that we are discussing expanding capacity for UK Export Finance precisely at the moment when British exporters face unprecedented challenges with our largest trading partner, which is the EU, the Chartered Institute for Export and International Trade, have documented the impact of this. They say that among the smallest firms, those with six employees or fewer, the value of their exports to the EU fell by 30% following the trade cooperation agreement.

Meanwhile, firms with more than 107 employees were largely unaffected. The Institute of Directors January 2025 Policy Voice survey found that 54.8% of businesses that previously exported have now stopped, citing the UK's trading relationship with the EU as a reason. More than half of our exporters surveyed have given up because of the barriers to trade with Europe. We're not talking about businesses that are failing to break into distant markets. We're talking about businesses that are established exporters abandoning our nearest and largest market because the barriers have become insurmountable.

The priorities for small manufacturers, the priority for small manufacturers is assistance in navigating customs declarations, rules of origin to sell with Europe. These are markets that they've served for decades, which is why us, as liberal Democrats, are calling for a fundamental reset of our relationship with Europe. A new bespoke UQ customs union that would cut through the red tape, boosting GDP by an estimated 2.2% and generating roughly £25 billion of additional tax revenues, according to the House of Commons library. Of

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course. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hate to burst your bubble, but in 2019, when this House was grappling with how we take forward the issues with how we take forward the issues around Brexit, there was a vote on the 1st of April. It was proposed by the Member for Rushcliffe, now by the Member for Rushcliffe, now Lord Clarke, on staying in the customs union. I voted for that. My party voted for that. It failed by party voted for that. It failed by three votes.

Five members of his party, including his now party leader, voted against that proposal on the basis that trying to kill any deal might have kept us in the European Union. I appreciate the position he's now coming from, but some of the reasons we don't have a customs union today is because of customs union today is because of actions of his party many years ago.
21:09
Joshua Reynolds Portrait Mr Joshua Reynolds MP (Maidenhead, Liberal Democrat)
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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I think when we're looking at this in reality, we need to look at the positions that are on the table at the time, and I think he knows as well as I do the positions that both of our parties took when the votes were coming through. And I know from from watching, obviously I wasn't in the house at the time, but from from listening and watching colleagues on Labour benches opposing various things that we've put forward.

The proposal that the Liberal Democrats put forward today would add 25 billion a year to the revenue coming into the Treasury. That's money not to be sniffed at. And that's something that should be supported across the whole house. So when we're discussing doubling UK export finance capacity to £160 billion, we need to ask ourselves whether those that extra money is actually going to address the export challenges that British business actually have, the fundamental barriers to the markets. Yet the government's answer is just to expand capacity without addressing that capacity will be able to reach the businesses that it needs the most.

So while I appreciate that, according to UK Export Finance 2425 annual report, they put in 14.5 billion of new financing that only went to support 667 UK businesses. Grow and invest. Now UK Export Finance have got their business plan from 24 to 29, and it clearly states in that five year milestone that they want to support an extra 1000 SMEs to export every year until 2029. That target, admittedly, was introduced under the previous government, but it hasn't been amended yet under the current government.

And considering there are 5.7 million SMEs in the UK and exporting of exports would be such a crucial tool for economic growth, that number of 1000 a year seems pitifully small, so I would value the Minister's thoughts on whether that 1000 target is his target and whether that can be improved going forward. It is my hope that this bill will ultimately support a more ambitious target for UK export finance. It would be stronger then, if we acknowledge the reality, supporting small businesses and removing those practical barriers that stop SMEs from exporting.

And that brings me Madam Deputy Speaker to my final point parliamentary oversight. We're going to spend £20 billion on industrial on industry assistance and guarantee up to 160 billion for export finance. As a house, we deserve more than just retrospective annual reports, because fundamentally, these are political decisions about which sectors succeed, which regions benefit, and how Britain competes globally. So we need to have regular parliamentary scrutiny of spending decisions, transparent criteria for allocating support and proper impact assessments that show whether this funding is actually working, not just how much has been spent, but whether it's reaching businesses that need it the most and delivering the economic growth that we were promised.

So we support this bill because the government has brought forward legislation that recognises that British businesses need backing, but British businesses need proper industry and export support that is strategically directed, environmentally responsible, democratically accountable and rooted in the challenges that they face. And I hope that this bill will go to deliver that as we move

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forward. Speaker. I support. This bill. It's a common sense

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This bill. It's a common sense adjustment of limits that were set in another economic age, so that powers, which Parliament has long powers, which Parliament has long judged to be legitimate, can carry on to be exercised to support our industry. It's not in the interests industry. It's not in the interests of working people for arbitrary historic figures to determine whether the government can act in the national interest today or in the future, no country can sensibly insist that its industries compete in the modern world and at the same time bind its own hands with ceilings fixed years ago, when the scale of production, trade and finance were altogether smaller.

And indeed, when my hon. Friend the Minister was last on the government benches, although of course he hasn't aged a day since then. Without this bill, both UK Export Finance and assistance under the IDA would simply run into statutory limits. Because the law has failed to keep pace with reality. And in places like Teesside, we know what happens when the tools of industrial policy are allowed to rust. We have seen world class steelmaking exposed not because the work lacked value, but because the
21:14
Luke Myer Portrait Luke Myer MP (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Labour)
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state lacked the capacity or the will to act. This government has shown, including in its response to shown, including in its response to the challenges facing British Steel, that it will not hesitate to step in when working people's security in when working people's security is on the line, and this bill is another step to ensure that that ability to act is preserved for ability to act is preserved for industries like steel, which are foundational to our defence, to our energy, to our infrastructure, to energy, to our infrastructure, to our advanced manufacturing and active state is a necessity.

Of course, this bill is not the whole answer, and the steel industry still needs a full steel strategy, as well as clarity from the government about its response to the current global trading environment. But the bill before us tonight is a reasonable change to support the industrial strategy and ensure that assistance already sanctioned by this House, in principle, does not fail in practice because legal ceilings have been allowed to fossilise. So I support the bill. There's a clear difference here between intervention that entrenches privilege and intervention, that enables productive work, where private markets alone cannot bear the risk, and anyone who's spent any time at all speaking to our steel manufacturers who are competing against heavily backed overseas rivals, understands that distinction.

So in that sense, this bill is simply a maintenance of our existing capacity, updating it to today's values. It keeps faced with our strategic industries and the communities upon which they rely. It ensures that the instruments that Parliament has judged necessary not rendered useless by neglect. And it supports jobs across every region of the country and in doing so preserves Britain's ability to make, build and export.

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And for those reasons, I support the Bill. Thank you Alan Strickland. Thank you, Madam Deputy.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker, I'm very pleased to be speaking to support this bill today, particularly as a member of Parliament, representing a proud Parliament, representing a proud manufacturing seat. And of course, our country as a whole has a proud tradition as one of the world's leading trading nations. And leading trading nations. And exports remain a critical part of our modern economy. And here at
21:15
Alan Strickland Portrait Alan Strickland MP (Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor, Labour)
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our modern economy. And here at home, British companies continue to lead the way through innovation, research and development and high tech manufacturing, building on our rich industrial history. But we all know the global marketplace is changing rapidly. So it is crucial that this government's growth mission to deliver this government's growth mission to spread prosperity across the country, including to constituencies like mine in the North East. Ministers have the flexibility they need to support businesses in a changing world, and this includes the provisions in the bill to increase the funding cap for government support to industry and increase the financial support provided by UK Export Finance to British businesses.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there are three reasons why these changes are important. Firstly, it is crucial we're able to support UK firms to compete in an increasingly complex and contested global economy. As other hon. Member hon. Members have mentioned. And as we see the growth of tariffs and protectionism making world markets harder to navigate, it's right that UK export finance should have an increased ability to provide the financial support that exporting businesses need. And of course, I see this in my own constituency, which is home to a number of world class companies who trade their products all over the world.

Between them, they employ many thousands of local residents, and this includes innovative SMEs such as Filtronic, who recently recently secured a 47 million global order for satellite communications technologies. Cromek, who supply radiation and biological weapon detection equipment to the US, Ukraine and our European allies. And Roman in my hometown of Newton Aycliffe, whose showers and bathroom products are sold to hotel chains all over the world. These manufacturing businesses designing the next generation of products. Each leaders in their respective fields, are exactly the sort of enterprises that we want as a government to encourage and support.

That is why increasing the limits on UK export finance funding and the wider work of the government on these matters to support modern manufacturing is so crucial. Secondly, I am proud the government is prepared to intervene to support British business to thrive, acting confidently, to crowd in investment and to step in to support the long term future of major industries. And of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, we've seen unfortunately over many years in the North East. This stands in sharp contrast to the previous Conservative government, who too often stood by while businesses failed, jobs were lost and regional economies were damaged when strategic intervention by the state could have made all the difference.

Now, of course, this isn't a power that should be used lightly, but it can be an important tool where government intervention can be the deciding factor. And we've seen the value of this approach since Labour came to office, and the decisive action taken at British Steel in Scunthorpe and Jaguar Land Rover in the West Midlands. I'm proud that this Labour government doesn't just talk about supporting modern industry, it rolls up its sleeves up and gets on with it. The third and final reason, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that while innovation, ingenuity and industrial prowess are found across our nation, for too long, this has not been matched by an equitable spread of government support across the many communities we serve.

Since the election, I've been pleased to see UK Export Finance and other government funds support businesses in a wide range of communities and financial support for industry being provided in traditional manufacturing areas that have often previously missed out. To kickstart growth and ensure this growth benefits everyone, it's important that innovative firms are supported wherever they are found. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is very welcome as we work hard to support British firms in an increasingly complex global economy, it is vital that we give Ministers and government bodies the flexibility they need to respond in an effective and an agile way.

Now, as the Minister said in his opening remarks, the bill is a straightforward one. But I do think as part of the wider package of measures we're taking to support industry and support exports, the positive impact these measures could have on growing our economy

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and supporting UK business are incredibly important ones. Yeah. Calvin Bailey thank.

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Calvin Bailey thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is an important bill, not only for is an important bill, not only for the agenda of increasing trade and therefore economic growth, but for therefore economic growth, but for our entire foreign policy in this chaotic and insecure international
21:20
Calvin Bailey Portrait Mr Calvin Bailey MP (Leyton and Wanstead, Labour)
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chaotic and insecure international environment. My work over the past year as a trade envoy to Southern Africa has shown me just how important joined up trade finance is to our diplomacy and to securing UK interests around the world, particularly as my hon. Friend from Middlesbrough, South and East, described in the steel industry now, in many contexts, but particularly in Africa, economic diplomacy that centres trade and investment is what our partners want from us. And this is reflected in the new UK Africa approach that was launched earlier today.

Unless we have a means to commit financially and to anchor and to bring together UK businesses and investors, there are many serious challenges that we cannot overcome. We need to build partnerships on critical minerals that protect our economy from the weaponisation of supply chains, particularly by China, and implement the new Critical Minerals strategy. We need to create deeper economic ties with fast growing countries and regions, which include many of our partners in Africa, because we have been losing out on serious growth opportunities for the lack of a focussed, strategic approach over the past decade and a half, and we need to show our partners that we have a modern approach to international development, which recognises and works with their own strategies and ambitions, and which therefore puts economic transformation at its heart.

This requires us to be much more joined up across government and to do more with the resources available. So I want to ask the Minister how the changes in this bill will complement Ukfs update of its own strategy. How will we enable organisations with a very long term focus, including and not only UK, but British international investment, to be more nimble and more ambitious in working together with our diplomats? As the Minister knows, I am firmly, I firmly believe that what our partners want from the UK is the exercise of cohering power, not providing the whole solution to the shared challenges, but being more willing to step forward and play a leading role in building that solution.

Within this, our institutions could provide a bigger economic impact and secure far more UK influence if they worked in more collaboration on larger projects such as infrastructure, trade corridors, energy grid developments and on critical minerals processing. This includes working together with close partner institutions such as those of Japan and Canada, as well as our EU partners. He will have read my views on these matters, because it has been clear that the UK has viewed as a coherent power partner in sub-Saharan Africa, and I hope that UKEF being front and centre of that Cohering international cooperation will help to address Chinese influence in the region.

And I ask, how does the Minister think we can more effectively support Ukef and others to do that, given that it may require a more nimble and flexible, flexible, flexible approach than the UK institutions are used to. Today's Africa approach rightly highlights the UK's support for the African Continental Free Trade Area, but promoting intra-africa trade and the critical agenda to move up the value chain often requires us to look across borders and apply a regional lens. When we assess which projects to support, can the Minister tell us how Ukef will do this? Finally, I want to note that resource constraints are inevitable a threat to the implementation of the Africa approach, the Critical Minerals strategy, and trade growth more widely.

I've seen some very innovative approaches across the continent that have lessons that we can learn, including the use of more chambers of commerce to ensure that country and regional expertise on UK trade and investment relationships is preserved. And I want to pour praise upon the ambassadors in Mozambique, Zambia, Gabon, DRC and Angola who have all demonstrated exceptional approaches to trade, creation and innovation. And I wish to ensure that the Ministers support they have the Minister's support in the retention of these posts and our diplomatic network.

Can the Minister set out how UKEF and other key public institutions will work seamlessly across all mechanisms of the government to ensure that we get the greatest value for public money, even when resources are tight. Expanded trade finance through Ukef is an essential tool for putting these strategies into practice, Madam Deputy Speaker, and for making our country and those of our partners more prosperous and more secure. This bill, therefore, takes very welcome steps in fixing the framework governing UKEF and making that progress possible.

I want to thank the Minister and his colleagues across government for their engagement with me on these issues over the last months, and I look forward to playing my part in driving the shared agenda forward.
21:26
Harriett Baldwin Portrait Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)
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To wind up with leave of the House shadow Minister. of the House, I would like to pick up on some of the points made in today's very, very interesting debate. And again, to reiterate that as conservatives, we've always stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain's businesses and their great exporters. And in my opening remarks, Madam Deputy Speaker, I put out some questions for the Minister, which I look forward to hearing his replies. But I just want to pick up on some of the points that were were raised in debate and thank the members for Chelsea and Fulham and the Member for Leyton and Wanstead, for all of the work that they're doing in terms of being trade envoys to West of Africa and the south of Africa.

And I remember when I was Africa Minister thinking how enormous the potential is for us to do more business with these nations. And so it's very interesting to hear how that work is going forward. I think a number of members in the debate highlighted the excellent export work done by small and medium sized businesses, and we heard about some of the excellent examples from the from the northeast in particular. And we also heard a case made from the Member for Maidenhead for the importance of small and medium sized businesses.

And I reiterate my question to the Minister, just to make sure that he is aware how important this House feels, it is that this money doesn't just get swallowed up by some of the larger household names like Rolls-Royce, Airbus and BA. That that fighting chance to some of the smaller exporters. I do want to pick up, though, on the point that the Member for Maidenhead made about the customs union because the the House will recognise how much work was put in in terms of landmark trade agreements with with 70 countries that give UK exporters preferential access to markets worth trillions of pounds.

It's work that the Minister continues energetically around the world, and he will no doubt in his closing remarks, point to the India free trade deal and the US free trade deal, which are really important pieces of work that he has been involved in. Those those free trade agreements that the UK has managed to negotiate would not be possible if we were in the European Union Customs Union. And so I would challenge the Member for Maidenhead to to point to where this research is on this fabled £25 billion.

But in in my concluding remarks, I just want to reiterate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the words of Ronald Reagan keep popping into my head during debates in this Parliament. And he famously said, if it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidise it. So really, what I'm hoping to hear from the Minister at the despatch box is how he's going to ensure that this additional money is used in the way that I said in my opening remarks, where it crowds in private sector investment, and it is there as a last resort, when to get a deal over the line rather than crowding out private sector funding.

That would have been there were it not for the government funds. And without more ado, Madam Deputy Speaker, having got my favourite Reagan quote about this government on the record, I can assure the

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House that we will not be opposing today's business. Leave the House, Minister.

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Leave the House, Minister. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Also with leave of the House, I thank colleagues for everything that they've had to say. everything that they've had to say. I'm not sure whether it was Reagan or Bush who said or who went to or Bush who said or who went to France, I think, and said that the trouble with the French economy is that there's no word in French for that there's no word in French for entrepreneur, which was actually repeated, I think, by a conservative Secretary of State for Wales who went to Wales and said that there is no word in Welsh for entrepreneur, which was a bit ironic.

Look, first of all, I'm going to try and do something extraordinary, Madam Deputy Speaker, and answer the questions that have been put to the government. So if I can start with the I don't think it'll catch on. If I start with the questions that were put by Jim Shannon Minister, I think she put it she put her second her the first question that she put to me originally was, can I guarantee that no commercial finance will ever be used where UKEF finance is involved? And the the strict answer to that is no.

And the but the the mission of UKEF is that no viable UK export should fail for lack of finance or insurance from the private sector. Now, the key point is the point that was made by my hon. Friend back there who said earlier, who talked about the cohering power and I. Sometimes that's precisely what UKEF is able to provide. Sometimes in particular, for instance, under export development guarantees and UK funding can help extend capacity or extend terms. And I think that that's a really important part of what it does.

So it's not that there will never, ever be commercial finance and UK finding, but but obviously we're not trying to supplant commercial funding and, and we're and we're also aware of course, that financial services are one of the key things that we do around the world. One of the things that we're trying to shift our FTAs towards is not just dealing with goods, but also with services, because that's where some of the added value is for the UK. And several hon.

Members have asked about regional disparities. This is one of the key things that we've charged UKEF with, and I know that they are very keen to address. I actually have a long list in my briefing notes of different parts of the country where UK funding has been supportive, or where there have been grants. I won't lay them all out. Now. The shadow Minister asked about new markets will often. That's precisely what we're looking for often for in both a new market for an individual exporter, but also new markets for UK in general, and one of the areas where we set aside money specifically is in relation to Ukraine, of course, where the reconstruction of Ukraine is going to be one of the most important things.

I think that the UK businesses would want to be involved in over future years. It will be difficult to get the insurance necessary to be able to provide that simply on the on the open market, and that's why UK funding is particularly important. She asked about no exports to countries that could do us harm. Well, in particular, she's absolutely right about the issue of side stepping Russian sanctions. And that's one of the discussions that we frequently have. And it's one of the things that UKEF are particularly particularly keen on doing due diligence on.

And that's why we constantly have to revise how we implement our sanctions regime to make sure that it is doing damage to the Russian doing damage to the Russian Federation's economic advances. Yes. I'm not sure he's been in for the I'm not sure he's been in for the rest of the debate. Oh, he'd be sitting on the front page, I do apologise. Thank you. Minister.
21:33
Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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Just one.

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Point of clarification. And I'm sure this will be hammered out during the committee phase. We've heard about the phase. We've heard about the assistance that the government has given over the last 15 months to places like UK steel and to Jaguar Land Rover. Now, I think the cyber element is a significant thing to element is a significant thing to talk about. So Jaguar Land Rover was hit by a big cyber attack. And I think we've taken a step change that. The government has now that.

The government has now stepped in and essentially made the British taxpayer the insurance company. So does the Minister see any risk with this bill? And what message do you think it sends to some of our adversaries, like Minister?

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Well, specifically on cyber financing and JLR, I might have to financing and JLR, I might have to correct myself in writing to him if I get what I say wrong now, but so far as I'm aware, I'm not sure that JLR have actually drawn down any of the finances from UKEF that we made available, but we thought it was available, but we thought it was important to make sure that the guarantee was there so that the company was able to proceed and that that would in particular be of that that would in particular be of assistance not only to JLR itself, but also to the extended supply chain, which many of whom were, because of the way the automotive industry now works, needed to be able to deliver precisely on time, and didn't have large stocks of things that they were keeping against the day when they might be called up by JLR.

So we certainly don't want to be to be the insurer of last resort for everybody who gets into a cyber security problem. That's why the government has a cyber strategy, and we're very keen to make sure that businesses take that part of their responsibility very seriously, because we've seen the dramatic effects it can have on the UK economy when that goes wrong. But it also makes the serious point about, I mean, I should say that there's no evidence that I've seen that what happened in JLR was specifically related to Russia.

But of course, we have to we have to maintain vigilance on all of these matters. And then the final question that the shadow Minister, because I'm not leaving out any of her questions, where the final question she asked was about how did we make sure that posts know about UKEF? I think we've heard from two of our trade envoys already that posts are extremely well aware of the existence of Ukef, and how completely transformative that can be when there is a business seeking to expand into a particular market.

And I would say that the problem is, sometimes in the UK, there aren't enough businesses that are aware of Ukef. And that's again, one of the things that I've been talking through and with the senior management at UKEF now, the my hon. Friend, the Member for Chelsea and Fulham, I know he's been doing a magnificent job because I've seen video footage of him on the news at ten in Togo in French. So we are we are very glad that we have such a a linguist in our team.

And and he's absolutely right to raise some of the issues in relation to the EU. We want frictionless trade. It's what we were promised, and we're going to try and achieve that insofar as we possibly can. And sometimes that will mean that we align as much as possible with the European Union, rather than diverge for the sake of divergence. And of course, it means that we need to get more mutual recognition agreements in place. There's a series of industries where I'd like to achieve that, not least with architects.

The hon. Member for Maidenhead gave the traditional single transferable EU speech from the Liberal Democrats. And I mean, of course, I agree with large chunks of what he was saying, but I don't agree with the premise that he comes to. And as I say, we want to within the parameters of what we have, we want to be able to deliver frictionless trade as much as possible. I know in my department everybody laughs at me, but I often refer to floristry. There are florists in every single constituency in this land, and if it costs more to bring flowers in from Europe than it did in the past, that is a problem for lots of small family businesses up and down the land, and that's why sorting out SPS over the next few months is a really important priority for the government.

He asked whether the the number 1000 is our target or their target. It's our target as well. And and we want to be ambitious about that. And he asked about spending decisions and accountability. Well, if only he knew somebody who was on the Business and Trade Select committee and to whom he could talk about answer asking questions from Ukip. Oh, no, he's on it. I'd forgotten. I'd completely forgotten, Madam Deputy Speaker. So I'm sure there are plenty of means. But I would gently say to him that in my experience, the whole system of of accountability, of expenditure in the House is pretty shabby.

And and it's not my job to right how we should change that in the future. But maybe he might come up with some suggestions and put them to others. My hon. Friend from Middlesbrough and East Cleveland. He said that I'd not aged a day since I was last a Minister under Queen Victoria, and I think that that is I think he inadvertently misled the House. So I hope at some time he will be able to correct the record. Madam Deputy Speaker, but he's absolutely right about arbitrary figures.

The figures the reason that we've got this bill is because they're arbitrary figures. And the bills the previous Acts of Parliament didn't allow us to amend them, to update them in line with inflation sufficiently, which is why we need primary legislation to do this. He's also right about the steel industry. I can absolutely assure him we will have a steel strategy out in the new year. It will be very clear about making sure how important we think the steel industry is to the UK, having a sovereign capacity in the UK of a variety of different forms of steel manufacture.

And I, I told the House last Thursday I was in Brussels last Wednesday to meet with Commissioner Sefcovic to talk about the EU steel safeguards and, and to make sure it's understood that we are not the problem for the EU, and the EU is not the problem for us. So we ought to be able to come to some agreement in that space. And of course, we know that our steel safeguard runs out at the end of June. We need to make sure that we have adequate measures in place thereafter, and we will do so.

And my hon. Friend for Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor, he he talked about the importance of exports and and in particular for businesses in his own region in. He's absolutely right. I mean, just one of the statistics I can give UKEF found provided a £590 million loan for SCA Wind UK, who are building an offshore wind factory in Teesside, and that's guaranteeing or creating 750 jobs by 2027 and for that matter, assisting the UK steel industry. So he's absolutely right.

I agree with him. My hon. Friend for Leyton and Wanstead, another of our magnificent trade envoys, he put more questions than the shadow Leader of the House than the shadow Minister. I'm not sure whether he's auditioning for some other post, but he's absolutely right about the importance of our critical mineral strategy. Africa is essential if we are to be able to deliver, because other countries are seeking to make inroads in the rest of Africa, and we can't leave that be. Similarly, he talked about whether this updated the updated strategy from UKEF, how that fitted with what we're doing today.

Well, the the new strategy simply can't exist without the extension of the financial provisions that we're putting in the bill today. And he talked about the cohering power, which I think is very important. He said that I could read his views. I know I could read his views because he gave me a letter only ten days ago, which I've read and which officials in the department are reading as well. And I'm enormously grateful to our trade envoys, in particular, those who provide clear reports when they've come back from visits of the things that we have achieved, because they're achieving them as part of the UK team.

And I really want one of the things I want to do in the new year in relation to exports is Trade Minister is try to vitalise the whole of the House so that all members who often know the businesses in their community better than anybody else and certainly better than any government department, bring people to us who might think about exporting in the future so that we can strengthen that opportunity. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is about enabling Scottish indie acts like Courtney, Alto and Young Fathers to tour the world and Wales is the Bug Club.

It's about funding low carbon hydrogen production. It's about helping superior wellness and sell hot tubs and spas around the world. It's about enabling three top aviation to expand their sustainable aircraft services into new markets. It's about helping SR marine systems sell their maritime surveillance in Indonesia and Kuwait. It's about enabling UK businesses to get contracts to help build the new Dubai airport. It's about enabling BioNTech to open two new R&D hubs. It's about helping in Loughborough and Clitheroe to develop new respiratory inhalers.

It's about enabling a new multi-billion pound car battery factory, creating 4000 jobs. It's about Scotch whisky and salmon and Welsh whisky, about aircraft engines and wings, about life sciences and advanced manufacturing. It's about jobs and our prosperity. So I hope that all honourable and right hon. Members will support the bill tonight. Here.

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The question is that the bill be now read a second time. As many as now read a second time. As many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary, no I think the ayes

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have it. The ayes have it. formally. I beg to move. The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper, As many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary,

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opinion, say aye. of the contrary, no I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Money resolution to be moved formally. I beg to move.

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The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I of the contrary, no I think the ayes have it, the ayes

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I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion number five on move. I beg to move.

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The question is as on the Order Paper, As many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary. opinion, say aye. of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. And we now come to petitions. Petition James Naish.
21:44
James Naish Portrait Petition James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to present this petition on behalf of my constituents in Rushcliffe and especially those in Radcliffe-on-Trent and Cotgrave who Radcliffe-on-Trent and Cotgrave who have signed this petition to signal their desire to see the public path and cycleway between and cycleway between Radcliffe-on-Trent and Cotgrave reopened. The public greenway linking Radcliffe-on-Trent and Cotgrave provides a vital link for local residents between the two villages and is a valued public pathway that provides access into green spaces such as Cotgrave Country Park.

This petition notes that since January 2024, this pathway has been out of action due to illegal work on its embankments, and over 2600 residents have signed a local petition highlighting the frustration they have felt at the lack of action to get this cherished local asset reopened, the petition states. The petition of residents of the constituency of Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire declares that the greenway between Radcliffe-on-Trent and Cotgrave, used by walkers, cyclists and horse riders, is a cherished local asset which since January 2024 has been out of action due to unauthorised work on one of its embankments, and further declares that almost two years on, despite frequent chasing by residents and resident groups, parish, borough and county councillors and the Member of Parliament for the impacted area, there has been no clarity provided about the likely costs and timelines for reinstatement, leaving residents in the dark.

The petitioners, therefore request that the House of Commons urges the government to work with Nottinghamshire County Council to provide much needed clarity on the status of the Radcliffe-on-Trent Cotgrave Greenway, to provide a clear timeline for a decision to be taken about the greenways future. To seek to hold the perpetrators who caused the damage to account, and to prioritise the reinstatement of this much loved active travel asset. As part of its Budget setting process for financial year 2026 2027, and the petitioners

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Petition Petition Radcliffe-on-Trent Petition Radcliffe-on-Trent to Cotgrave Greenway.

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Cotgrave Greenway. adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn. Chris Vince.

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do now adjourn. Chris Vince. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Speaker's office for finding time for me to have for finding time for me to have this important debate. And I thank my right hon. Friend, the Minister, for being in her place and hearing it, and I look forward to a response later. I know that this is an issue that many members feel very passionate about, and I look forward to trying to take as many interventions I can as my speech continues.

There have been plenty of high profile examples of sudden cardiac arrest in young people, but I want to speak about a case which
21:47
21:47
Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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who was the aunt of Clarissa Nichols. Clarissa was studying French and Italian at Cambridge French and Italian at Cambridge University. She was a keen runner and hockey player. Just days before and hockey player. Just days before her 21st birthday in May 2023, she collapsed and died while hiking in collapsed and died while hiking in France with It was later found that she had a life threatening condition. I'm not about pronouncing. Apologies are thrombogenic cardiomyopathy. In June of 2024, Clarissa was posthumously awarded a first class honours degree from Cambridge University, and I had the honour of meeting Hilary both privately, and a recent event in Westminster held by the cardiac risk in the young campaign.

And I thank my hon. Friend from North west Leicester for organising that particular event, Hilary said despite a journey cut tragically short, we want to celebrate her achievements alongside her cohort, as it should have been. We know that we would be, we know that we would have been very proud of her today and we remain proud of her dedication, her determination and resilience as she set out to be the very best that

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she could be. I will give way. I thank the hon. Member for

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I thank the hon. Member for Harlow for giving way and congratulations to him on securing this debate. I have also met with this debate. I have also met with Hilary, Clarissa's mum, and heard about Hilary's death and that a simple ECG can save lives. And it's simple ECG can save lives. And it's chilling to think that that could be my daughter's that would face this as well. Does the hon. Member this as well. Does the hon. Member agree with me that it is shocking that exercise can triple the risk of sudden cardiac death, but 80% of cases show no symptoms at all, and that the government could act now to issue clear guidance, as we have done on concussion, for example, and to encourage more young people and enable those young people to have that simple test that could

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save so many lives. I thank my hon. Friend for intervention. I actually agree with the points that she made. I mean, it's interesting, you know, Clarissa was a young girl. She was very involved in sport. And very involved in sport. And actually, there's no reason why young people with conditions like this can't continue to take part in this can't continue to take part in sport, as long as they're aware of the condition and actually able to, to, to to take precautions because to, to to take precautions because of it.

And what's been very and just to finish Hillary's quote, she said about her daughter, she put everything into her studies, the friends she made here and the staff that support her along the way included, including while she was on her year abroad. We are grateful of the happy time she clearly took away with her to her next life. What really struck me when I put in for this debate and it obviously came out on on the list of adjournment debates, is the number of people that have come up to me and shared their own personal experiences.

In fact, only this morning I had two doorkeepers that shared their experiences of of this condition. I want to pay tribute to one of the Doorkeepers Kieran, now whose son Connor, who was born on the 13th of January 1994, died only at only 14 months old in 1995 of and when the post-mortem was conducted, it was found that he died of sudden cardiac death through a thickening of the heart muscle. And that was over 30 years ago. But I know from talking to Kieran the huge impact that's had on his life and he will always carry that, that, that loss with him.

And I think it's important to recognise how, how, how, how long this, this, these sort of issues have been. We've been aware of them and I think it's it's time to, to talk about the action that, that we can take and just to give and actually in fact, this morning I was in my constituency of Harlow talking to one of our headteachers, Vic Goddard, who is the, the, the, the head of the Passmores Colchester learning community. He spoke about his time when he was a PE teacher of of a young boy dying of cardiac arrest, and he feeling so strongly that every school that he works in should have a defib.

And I really would emphasise again, having talked to some of the staff here, the huge difference that access to a defib can have in

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survival chances, I will give way. First of all, Madam Speaker, can I commend the hon. Gentleman for Harlow for bringing this forward Harlow for bringing this forward and the time he's been in this house. He's he's performed himself to be a serious, committed and a to be a serious, committed and a hard working constituency MP. I think it'd be one of us are impressed by his efforts in this impressed by his efforts in this House, but also in Westminster Hall. We thank him for that.

And today he has done his constituents proud and has done his constituents proud and his constituents should be proud of him. And I presented the case as well. So well done to him. In British Heart Foundation of Northern Ireland and similar groups noted that undetected and inherited heart conditions can lead to sudden death in young people, and that charity has estimated one person aged under 35 years dies every month in Northern Ireland from an undiagnosed heart condition. So does the hon.

Member agree that for heart conditions that could be inherited genetically, there must be early intervention through screening to ensure this can be detected and treated early. The reason why I put the case to support gentleman, because I have a young constituent of mine who have died the very same way as he

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described, and for them and Strangford I put forward a case for them as well. Thank you. And I thank the gentleman for

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And I thank the gentleman for his intervention and his very kind words. He's actually intervened at perfect time, because I was just perfect time, because I was just going to go through some of the statistics. But yeah, 12 people aged between 14 and 35 die each aged between 14 and 35 die each week in the UK from an undiagnosed heart condition, which which obviously includes Northern Ireland. obviously includes Northern Ireland. And as I mentioned, I think my hon. Friend. 80% of those people show no symptoms, meaning the first sign is often that sudden cardiac arrest.

Elite athletes Madam Deputy Speaker are screened by mandate, but amateur and grass roots athletics are not. Despite facing some of the same exercise related risks, the NHS currently screens families only after a sudden cardiac death, so they will. Hillary and her family were screened for the condition, obviously took away their daughter's life, but obviously

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that's too late for prevention. I will. I'm very grateful. And to his point about elite

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And to his point about elite athletes being screened, I went in September to to Sidmouth College, September to to Sidmouth College, where there was the very elite Exeter Chiefs rugby team, but they Exeter Chiefs rugby team, but they were being screened alongside pupils from Sidmouth College because of the great work of because of the great work of Marianne Hayman, whose son died aged 27, from a sudden cardiac arrest that came from absolutely nowhere. So does he share my view that screening for young people can save many, many lives, and that setting up memorial funds in the

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way that Marianne did for her son Jonathan, can enable us to save more of those lives. I thank the hon. Gentleman for

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Absolutely agree with the points he made, and I know of the funding that Hilary was able of the funding that Hilary was able to, you know, raise through the memory of her daughter Clarissa, to do just that. And I know of the do just that. And I know of the fund of the the work that Kieran did in the name of his son Connor, to raise funds for exactly that, to raise funds for exactly that, that, that, that point.

I will come on to some of my recommendations or my key ask in a moment, but that would absolutely be one of them. So I thank him for that. So yes. So as I said, the NHS screens families only after a sudden cardiac death. It screens young people with symptoms. But many active young people are dismissed without tests because they do not show that those symptoms. There is no there are currently no screening pathways for asymmetric, asymptomatic young people who make up the majority of those in risk.

And National Screening Committee suggested screening, but is now, I believe, reviewing a targeted programme for amateur athletics. So to move on. Finally, to the last part of my speech, some of the key asks, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's. I will give way.

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Thank you very much. And I would just like to pay testament to you. just like to pay testament to you. Sorry to the hon. Friend for Harlow for bringing this important debate. Yes, as the hon. Member for Strangford said, an absolutely Strangford said, an absolutely fantastic representative for his constituents. And I would just like constituents. And I would just like to ask the hon. Member if he would join me in thanking the family of Aiden Joyce from Clackmannanshire. Aiden Joyce from Clackmannanshire.

Aiden was a serving police officer and a keen sportsman and Aiden tragically passed away in 2023 from an undiagnosed coronary artery anomaly and his family set up a memorial fund that funds the screening of young people in Clackmannanshire at Alva Academy, a local secondary school. And there is absolutely no doubt about it

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that this has been crucial in saving tens of lives. Thank you very much. I thank my friend for his

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I thank my friend for his intervention. I absolutely pay tribute to his constituent and the work that he's done in in In work that he's done in in In Memoriam, and I think it's hugely important that he's done that. And and I thank him for that. And I and I thank him for that. And I thank him for raising it. And I think it just his intervention just goes to show the number of lives that have been affected in this way. And I thank him for his intervention.

So my kiosk number one would be to introduce a a national NHS screening pathway for active young people, beginning with amateur and grassroots athletes. And my second ask would be to provide routine ECG screening for all 14 to 18 year olds at least twice, ensuring early detection before symptoms occur. And my third ask would be to ensure equitable access. So screening is not limited only to those who could pay for it privately. Privately. My fourth ask would be to use emergency emerging evidence, including the forthcoming large scale audit, to update guidance and remove outdated barriers.

My fifth ask would be to provide prevention by recognising the decades of life lost per young person and the long term economic and societal impact. I will give way to my hon. Friend for giving way. He's making a very powerful speech and also a very extensive list of recommendations to government. He talked slightly earlier in his speech about defibrillators. And there's a really important point there about the access to defibrillators and where they are sited within constituencies. But does he agree with me? It's also really important to make sure that where there is a need to use defibrillator, that those who need to use them have the training, the knowledge, the skill set to confidently do so in a safe manner.

And I think that's a really important point. What do you agree with me on that? I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I would absolutely agree with him. When I was a councillor in Harlow, I did a lot of work with my colleague James Griggs, who's who's now the Labour group on on Harlow Council to push for more defibrillators in across, across Harlow, particularly in public places, but actually being confident and knowing how to use them is equally important. Mike. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, the reason I, I suppose the reason I've done not to get too emotional during this speech and I might fail in the moment, but when I was at uni and for not for Cardiff West, but for completely different reasons, a friend of mine, Jude, died when she was only 18 years old, and I think about all the things I've done since I was 18.

I mean, you know, people say life begins at 40. I don't know about that, but certainly from the, you know, slightly geeky, believe it or not, 18 year old that I was to the 42 year old MP standing in front of you, my life has changed a great deal and very much for the better. And it really saddens me that that Jude never got to experience growing up, having a family and having having that that experience. And, you know, it also saddens me that many young people like Clarissa and others, that that hon.

Gentleman, hon. Friends and hon. Members across the House have

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mentioned and I will give way. I thank my hon. Friend. He's making a very moving and powerful making a very moving and powerful speech. And regarding the the speech. And regarding the the tragic loss of young lives and all of the years that are lost, the years of their lives, their years of their lives, their families and so on, all of the suffering that happens when people suffering that happens when people die so young. I too, lost a friend whom I met while we were studying master's degrees at University College at Durham University in 2001.

He died in 2012 of an undiagnosed heart condition, and he's a much, much loved and missed son, husband, father and a dear friend of mine. And does he? Does my hon. Friend agree that the huge loss that families and friends feel should should inspire us all to seek as much effort from government, from scientists, from medics, to prevent these often avoidable situations. And I, I continue my my life with him in my memory and I'm inspired by everything that Michael McCarthy did and by our friendship.



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And I miss him dearly. Order.

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Order. Order to move to the House, to. The question of this House. Do now adjourn. Chris Vince.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank my hon. Friend, for Rugby for his really powerful Rugby for his really powerful testimony and and tribute to his friend Michael. And I don't think I could put it any better than that, could put it any better than that, really. And to finish. So just to finish, Madam Deputy Speaker, we're all very aware of the challenges that the NHS faces, and we're all very aware of the challenges the department faces and the challenge that the Minister and her team face.

And I recognise I've given her quite a lot of us this afternoon, this evening and I suppose I would just put my overall ask to the Minister is please consider the things that have been said today and do what, do what you can, what she can to, to, to, to to tackle this issue because it's hugely important to so many and and for every young life that's lost is a tragedy in itself. But of course, along with that person losing their life, there's a family that's devastated and indeed friends who equally are devastated.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Minister. Amanda Hack Prime Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for Harlow for bringing forward this really important debate, but also to speak so passionately about the issue at hand. Just a reminder to our young, fit, healthy young people die of an fit, healthy young people die of an unknown heart condition. That means by the time we get to Christmas, that will be 20 young people have lost their lives. By this time next year, that will be 600 people.

All of those Madam Deputy Speaker could have been prevented. I was first aware of the scale of this tragedy, when I bumped into an old school friend for his 40th birthday, was fundraising for the brilliant cardiac risk in young people or crime. Unbeknown to me, he had lost his brother to a sudden cardiac arrest when we were just in our teens. The second time I came across Craig was much closer to home. My niece's boyfriend sadly passed away in his sleep three years ago, fit and healthy, having gone on a run only earlier that day.

His mother Lesley, and my niece Izzy. I've been steadfast in their campaigning for cry ever since, so what a cry all about. They do vital work in raising awareness, supporting bereaved families and most importantly, screening young people. Cry offers ECG Cardiograms screenings of all young people between the ages of 14 to 35. To date, they've screened over 340,000 young people since their formation 30 years ago. I was lucky enough to see one of their screening days first hand at Cambridge University Sports Centre, organised by Hilary Nicholls, who've already been mentioned this evening in memory of her daughter Clarissa, who passed away just 21.

Cycling in France, they are calling for an urgent national screening committee to
22:03
Amanda Hack Portrait Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)
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review and reconsider evidence supporting the rollout of a national screening programme, and national screening programme, and for there to be a national screening strategy for the prevention of young, sudden cardiac death. I would greatly welcome the Minister's comments on this, particularly when a similar programme was introduced in Italy programme was introduced in Italy in the 80s. They saw an increase of reduction of young people dying by 85% in that point. Over the last year, I've been speaking to national sporting bodies alongside my colleague, the hon.

Friend for Beckenham and Penge, to identify who were already screening their players and how they do it, as well as meeting organisations that represent sports facilities. Just the other week we heard excellent news that cardiac screening is being introduced across Netball Superleague in England as a requirement from next season, and every player will be screened before the season starts. I also understand they'd be working with criteria screenings, the clubs and players where they don't have anything in place already. This comes after Caitlin Lawrence collapsed while warming up for netball match, and after hospital scans showed she had an irregular heartbeat.

Lawrence was asymptomatic, young, fit and elite, and her experience shows just how crucial it is to screen young people playing sport. I also want to be very clear many people can still play sport upon receiving their diagnosis. We have wonderful tools available and fantastic cardiologists across the country. To facilitate this, you only have to look at how successful Christian Eriksen been since his clap on the pitch during an international game. It's not a deterrent. It doesn't have to be. It's information and it's simply not good enough to say that screening young people will put them off sport and therefore should not be widely carried out.

But crucially, a level of screening isn't being undertaken. That means we have to also make sure we have access to defibs and understand how to carry out CPR, as these are just as important. The hon. Member for Beccy Cooper, Beckenham and Penge and I met with Arsenal's team doctor, Zafar Iqbal at Arsenal's training ground earlier this month. Zak is incredibly passionate about cardiac health and has been using his position at Arsenal and at his previous clubs to champion greater awareness of CPR and defibs among school aged children.

That's where I want to draw attention to the incredible work that Brentford FC is doing with the heart of West London campaign opening up their ground to offer cardiac screening to the surrounding community. They do about 1000 a year. This kind of engagement is exactly why we need to get the message embedded into our communities of how important it is to be ready in the event of an emergency, but the matter that is our defib network is nowhere near fit for purpose. I recently had the defib in my constituency, which effectively worked on a small scale community audit network, and the results were deeply concerning.

The majority of consultants who took part had to dash for eight minutes or longer to get to their nearest defect. So as a reminder, Madam Deputy Speaker for every minute CPR and defib isn't used on an individual suffering from a cardiac arrest. Their life expectancy falls by 10%.

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On that point. Of course. Mark Sewards. I'm very grateful to her for

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I'm very grateful to her for giving way. She's making a powerful speech, just as the hon. Member for Harlow did earlier, and in line with the question asked by my hon. Friend for Bolton West defibrillators, when they're rolled out to communities can be out to communities can be incredibly useful for all the reasons that she stated. And across Leeds South West and Morley, it's Leeds South West and Morley, it's very hard to find an area in my constituency where we don't have a defibrillator that's been fundraised and installed by volunteers, but I must admit, I don't know how to use one as a point of this debate.

I'm going to go away and make sure I do know how to use one. But how do we roll out defibrillator training nationally to ensure that as many people know

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possible? Amanda Hack I thank my hon. Friend for making that really important intervention. DfE talk to you. You don't need to be mystified you. You don't need to be mystified by the use of them. They're really clever bits of kit and a 99 clever bits of kit and a 99 emergency responder will talk you through that. And it's really

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please go and get trained. Honestly, it's it's really it's really important stuff. You don't really get. Of course.

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An hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the across my constituency, Strangford and constituency, Strangford and Deirdre Costigan defibrillators have been supplied every school and every community centre. The local communities in Ards and Ballynahinch and and down the Ards Peninsula have also got a Peninsula have also got a defibrillator in their city centres, in their village centres as well. But what we have is an organisation called First Responders Works in the Ards Peninsula. They're the ones who can very quickly do training every every month.

For those who want to learn how to use a defibrillator, but also on the defibrillators that we have and Ards and elsewhere, there's a small diagram ABC of how to use it. Now. I haven't had to do it in Madam Deputy Speaker, but I'm presuming I'm being told by the first responder. You follow those three directions and you can you can use a defibrillator as good as anything. That's what I've been told. They have the same opinion.

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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I think the key thing that we've been trying to do in my constituency, and I'd encourage constituency, and I'd encourage other members to do the same, is to to demystify those those yourself. There's some really easy tools online that can show you, but online that can show you, but they're so clever. They're such clever bits of kit. Please don't be

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afraid of to of looking into that. My honourable colleague. John Slinger. I'm grateful to my hon. Friend. Does she agree with me that the activities of charities such as the RJ Foundation in my constituency of Rugby are critically important in this issue as well? And Naomi Rees is it created the RJ Foundation in memory of her son. And not only have they installed hundreds of defibrillators around Rugby and the surrounding area, including bleed kits, but they also hold to her point.

They also hold training sessions in the community, with qualified paramedics and nurses giving the training. And I've attended one of those and they are just as much lifesavers as the defibs that go into our communities, and that can all help reduce these sudden cardiac deaths in young people.

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And I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the conversation Speaker, I think the conversation around Defibs has been a really interesting one, but this is obviously just part of the solution when we're looking at cardiac risk when we're looking at cardiac risk in young people. I think the main point that I was trying to make is until we can roll out an effective until we can roll out an effective programme of screening, we need to make sure we've got the tools in make sure we've got the tools in our toolkit around CPR and Defibs to make sure we can support a person if they're going into cardiac arrest.

I think just to just to finally just to to finish the the importance of CPR training, the importance of knowing where your nearest defib is is all part of that solution. But actually it's when we're looking at cardiac risk in young people, it's about actually how do we make sure that those individuals that are asymptomatic are screened and, and that information is made aware to them of how they can react if they have got an undiagnosed cardiac condition? I just wanted to put my thanks, my record put on record, my thanks to the British Heart Foundation, Resus UK, Brentford F.C.

Arsenal F.C. East Midlands Ambulance Service and Kerry from Vitalise health and first aid training and all the bodies that have supported me in my questions around health screening and of course, the fantastic campaigners such as Hilary. Madam Deputy Speaker, the truth is we could be doing far, far more to tackle sudden cardiac death in young people. So why aren't we? I'd really love to hear from the Minister. Thank you Minister.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I thank my honourable and good friend, the Member for Harlow, for bringing this debate forward and sharing the stories of Clarissa and sharing the stories of Clarissa and Jude. And I thank all hon. Members for their contributions tonight and acknowledge the losses tonight and acknowledge the losses to which they have attested. But I must say that visiting the Harlow must say that visiting the Harlow constituency was one of the highlights of my year, and it was a pleasure to open the new high security containment labs with my hon.

Friend, the Member for Harlow and my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State. These labs are a critical part of our health and national security, bringing jobs and growth to Harlow. And I hope his constituents know how much their MP is batting for them in this place every day, and how his work is already paying dividends.

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And I pay tribute to him for that. I will. Thank the Minister for giving

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Thank the Minister for giving way, and can I commend the hon. Member from Harlow for securing this debate. And I also believe I this debate. And I also believe I seen him with a little person, a little man in the corridor. So can I congratulate him on welcome him I congratulate him on welcome him to parenthood? And as he spoke of Clarissa, it. As parents, we can't help but be moved in that regard. And I know this maybe is a slightly different direction, but there are many out there who are concerned about the increase in the numbers of young people, particularly dying from sudden death syndrome and the potential link to vaccination and Covid vaccination.

Can the Minister and this is not to get controversial. Can the Minister just assure this House that data is being looked at and the data is being assessed? The Minister has spoken of labs and technology. Can she give some information to the general public around government's interest in this subject, and that this is being looked at?
22:13
Ashley Dalton Portrait Ashley Dalton MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (West Lancashire, Labour)
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I thank the hon. Member for her intervention, and she will know that all vaccines are assessed and are not issued unless they are considered safe. We collect data from right across the medical estate in terms of. In terms of conditions and potential impacts. I haven't seen any data at the moment that would suggest that there is a particular link to any particular vaccine, but if there is, then that is something that the data will show us and that that will be considered.

Madam Deputy Speaker, both the hon. Gentleman for Harlow and I stood on a manifesto to tackle the biggest killers, including cardiovascular disease, to halve the gap in healthy life expectancy between the richest and poorest regions in England, and to reverse the legacy left to us by the last government. And through his work with the cry campaign and everything he said in the chamber this evening, it is evident that he is staying true to those promises and I thank my hon. Member.

My hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire for highlighting the work of cry further this evening. Any MP who campaigns on prevention is pushing at an open door with this government. We are shifting the focus for our NHS from sickness to prevention. And as my hon. Friend rightly points out, it's a tragedy when young lives are lost to preventable illness. He and others make a powerful case for a national screening programme. So let me address this point head on. I fully support a national screening programme as long as the experts agree it would do more good than harm.

Now our National Screening Committee give advice based on a range of factors and while balancing the pros and cons of screening population level groups, the committee has previously perceived and given evidence that introducing mass screening for sudden cardiac death could cause harm by misdiagnosing some people, for example, after receiving a false diagnosis. This could lead to people being prescribed medication they don't need, undergoing medical procedures that they don't need, like having an implantable defibrillator fitted and people living in fear of sudden cardiac death.

And they're not genuinely at risk. However, the committee is currently reviewing the evidence for sudden cardiac death screening and will open a public consultation in early 2026. We will look carefully at the findings of the consultation, and I know that the Cry campaign will make their voices heard. Several members tonight have discussed defibrillators and training in their use. NHS England run training sessions on first aid, CPR and the use of defibrillators, both in the community and in schools under the Restart Our Heart programme.

NHS have trained over 35,800 adults and children in CPR and defibrillator use in the last 13 years, and 2134 this year so far. NHS England deliver the sessions via their resuscitation team and via their community first responders, and also run life saving skills workshops for harder to reach communities and ethnically diverse groups. And they've trained 407 people in life saving skills in this group this year so far. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's important to remember the care and support that loved ones receive when they lose a loved one to sudden cardiac arrest, or when they find out a family member has an inherited heart condition.

The NHS England service specification sets out how this care should be provided by specialist teams. Excuse me by specialist teams in a way that's

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tailored to meet the needs of families. With the hon. Member.

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Happily. I do thank the Minister for giving way and for the good news giving way and for the good news about the the looking into the possibility of screen rolling out screening across the whole country, screening across the whole country, especially bearing in mind the evidence from Italy where the good has been shown to outweigh the the has been shown to outweigh the the potential downsides. And so I look forward to getting involved in that consultation. And I know also that in the amount of training that's been done on CPR use and the use of defibrillators has been extensive, and choices of of songs to sing along to, to get the rhythm right is really, really important.

So would the Minister share with us whether she would use Set Staying Alive or Pink Pony Club as her defibrillator sing along song?

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Minister. Well, I think. Staying alive is

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Well, I think. Staying alive is a bit. Is a bit of a sharp one really, isn't it? I think, and but seen as Pink Pony Club once it's in my head, I can't get rid of it for weeks. I think we'll probably opt weeks. I think we'll probably opt with that one. But my hon. Friend makes a really important point, which is that learning how to use a defibrillator and doing that defibrillator and doing that properly and to do CPR is a really crucial life skill.

And I'm really pleased and proud that NHS England are continuing to roll that out in our schools and in our communities. But the NHS England is also keeping under review the specialist service specification for providing care to families, and they are working closely with the Association of Inherited Cardiac Conditions, cardiomyopathy, UK, Heart Valve Voice and the British Heart Foundation. But we're also working with the NHS Genomics Programme to align the service specification with genomics resources. And I just want to spend a little bit of time talking about our vision of genomics, because we're going through a revolution in medical science.

That means we can transform the NHS over the coming decade from a service which diagnoses and treats ill health to one that can predict and prevent it. And if we can harness the power of life sciences to the health service, we could achieve so many of the aims that many of my hon. Friends and hon. Members have set out today. Within a decade, every newborn will undergo whole genome sequencing, which assesses future risks of hundreds of diseases, including cardiovascular. Every baby will have their DNA mapped under NHS Revolution to predict and prevent disease, allowing people to receive tailored health care long before symptoms begin.

These advances could one day put an end to blanket screening and rudimentary health Mots. Instead of mass screening, patients will increasingly be offered personalised health checks, targeted medicines being offered far earlier and adverse drug reactions avoided helping to transform the NHS from a reactive healthcare system to a proactive one. And this ambition will be funded by 600 by £650 million. Boost into genomics. As part of the government's life sciences sector plan. And we're just beginning to scratch the surface of what genomics, gene editing and life sciences can do.

Madam Deputy Speaker, under this government, NHS waiting lists are falling, ambulances are arriving faster and we're lifting hundreds of thousands of kids out of poverty. Our ten year plan is building on the founding principle of the NHS, so that it provides healthcare free at the point of risk, not just at the point of need. And now we are shifting the focus of our NHS from sickness to prevention. Wherever we can go further on prevention, we will, and I've heard my hon.

Friend's case this evening. He is a powerful advocate for those who have lost loved ones to sudden cardiac death, and we're listening to him and others who are pushing us to go further. And I will update him. And of course, the House next year. Following the review of consultation.

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Thank you. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion, say aye. The ayes
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