Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Earl of Caithness

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, like my noble friend who has just spoken, my amendments in this group are about challenging the EDP. We spoke about that on the last amendment; I do not think there is any need for me to repeat myself. I express my thanks to the Minister, who will probably go into this in quite some detail.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendment 285AA is about the way in which the Secretary of State approves EDPs. As currently drafted, the Bill says:

“The Secretary of State may make the EDP”—


that is, approve it—

“only if the Secretary of State considers that the EDP passes the overall improvement test”.

The “overall improvement test” is the key test of whether an EDP is sufficient and should go ahead but the Bill does not make it clear on what basis the Secretary of State will make his consideration. If I understand it correctly, the Secretary of State who will do this part of the process is the Secretary of State at MHCLG and not Defra, unless I have misunderstood what the Minister has just said.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Earl of Caithness

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, on Amendment 345 on heritage trees, to which I put my name. This amendment echoes the key provisions of my heritage tree Private Member’s Bill, which, alas, ran out of road at the last ballot. It remains in my heart, and I shall continue to re-ballot it on every possible occasion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, has ably made the case that heritage trees are really important for history, culture and biodiversity, but they have remarkably little protection and are threatened by development, by deliberate damage—as with the Sycamore Gap tree—by inappropriate management or by sheer neglect and lack of management. The provisions of this amendment would bring protection to these important trees, and there is already the beginnings of a register, as proposed by the amendment, in the Ancient Tree Inventory. The Government have shown signs of interest in this in the past and asked the Tree Council to investigate and report on the issue. The Tree Council submitted its report in spring 2025, and concluded that trees of high social, cultural and environmental value are only indirectly protected, with significant legal gaps, and recommended the development of a “robust and effective system” to ensure that they are safeguarded. Other countries, such as Poland and Italy, have very effective protections.

Examples of socially, culturally and environmentally important trees lost in the last few years include the 300 year-old Hunningham oak near Leamington, which was felled to make way for infrastructure projects in 2020. There was a tree in Hackney called the Happy Man tree, which was the named tree of the year in 2020, but was felled in 2021 to make way for a housing development. There were 60 wonderful ancient lime trees in Wellingborough which were felled in favour of a dual carriageway in 2023. There are lots of examples of historic and culturally important trees, as well as their biodiversity significance, simply failing to be protected. I think that the outpouring of grief and rage that arose from the felling of the Sycamore Gap tree shows just how much the public value these trees, and, indeed, that was reflected in the sentencing.

I asked the Government in a Written Question on 17 July what progress they had made in implementing the recommendations of the Tree Council. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, replied:

“We are carefully considering expert recommendations laid out in the Tree Council and Forest Research report. It will be important”—


note the weasel words here—

“to balance our approach with existing priorities and our statutory obligations. We recognise the value of our most important trees and consider all ancient and veteran trees to be irreplaceable habitats”.

I ask just three questions of the Minister. First, am I right in summarising her response to my Written Question as, “Push off: they are irreplaceable habitats already. We aren’t going to do anything more to proceed with this report and protect them”? Secondly, if that is not the case, when and if will the Government come forward with an action plan following the Tree Council and Forest Research report? Thirdly, if they are not going to respond to the Tree Council report with an action plan, will she accept this amendment? I look forward to her response.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s Amendment 341, which refers to ponds. She was quite right to mention floods and drought. I would just like to follow up on that and remind your Lordships what happens with flood and drought. It is the loss of topsoil that is so damaging to farms. If one has ponds, one can collect the topsoil before it does further damage. It does further damage in two ways.

First, if you are near a chalk stream, you get silt going into the chalk stream, which is destroying the environment of the chalk stream. A chalk stream should not have silt in it. I remember speaking in the House last year, I think, about chalk streams and how a sudden thunderstorm had turned a chalk stream from being a crystal gin-clear stream, as it should have been, into a dirty brown river, and the damage that that was doing to the environment of the chalk stream.

Secondly, if the water catchment area goes into a reservoir, a huge amount of topsoil is filling up reservoirs. One might look at a reservoir once it is full of water and think, “Gosh, that’s a really big reservoir”, but one finds that actually a third of it is silted up from years of run-off from the adjoining land. Having ponds that stop that must be a good idea. They can easily be sited in areas of unproductive farmland.

I also notice the interpretation of a pond. My noble friend was absolutely right to mention that this should be permanent or seasonal. With the recent flooding we have had, there has been some terrible damage to farmland, sometimes where a pond would have stopped the damage. It would not be a permanent pond, it would be a seasonal pond, but it would help to reduce the damage to farmland from the run-off of the heavy rain. I hope that the Government will look at that amendment particularly carefully.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Earl of Caithness

Committee stage
Monday 15th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Coffey, who made an excellent speech trying to persuade the Government to take out Natural England and put in the Secretary of State. As I said on the last group of amendments, Natural England has become unaccountable and unquestionable. It is also acting as judge and jury in its own right.

If you google Natural England, you come to the GOV.UK website. Under “What we do”, it says:

“We’re the government’s adviser for the natural environment in England”.


If it is the adviser, then it is the Secretary of State who should be totally accountable, as well as the Minister in this House, whom we can question. At the moment, we cannot question Natural England in the way that we can question Ministers. I think that is entirely wrong, and I hope the Government will agree.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Is this something the noble Earl would want extended to other government agencies? Is he envisaging that, with the Environment Agency, for example, all the powers should be held by Ministers and only delegated on sufferance? The Forestry Commission is in a slightly different position because it is a non-ministerial government department. I am just trying to understand whether this is something he thinks is a good point of principle for a Government’s relationship with all their agencies, or whether this is a witch hunt against Natural England.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

No, it is not a witch hunt against Natural England by itself, because I think a lot of the agencies suffer from exactly the same problem. However, this Bill is giving Natural England huge executive powers which it has not got at the moment. Those executive powers should be used by the Secretary of State so that they can be questioned in Parliament.

My noble friend Lady Coffey also spoke about Natural England’s capabilities. It is worth looking at some of its capabilities. It manages a national nature reserve at Moor House; it is the only one it manages directly. It was supposed to be a beacon of best practice and demonstration. After 70 years of quango management, of the 25 sites of special scientific interest, only five are in favourable condition—as assessed by Natural England itself—and the rest, 80%, are either unfavourable, declining or in one case destroyed. In Dartmoor, the trust between farmers, landowners and Natural England broke down so seriously two years ago that the Conservative Government had to commission a review chaired by David Fursdon. That reflects very badly on Natural England.

More recently, Natural England launched a new interactive peat map and invited the public to use it to inform responses to a live Defra consultation on heather burning. One would think that was fairly simple and straightforward; what could go wrong? Well, within minutes of the map becoming live, owners, farmers and tenants highlighted major inaccuracies in this new mapping tool, making any work based on it of spurious value. These were not minor glitches, but a basic failure of environmental cartography. Natural England’s track record is not very good. In fact, it is pretty useless. I therefore strongly urge the Government to change the wording of the Bill as proposed in the amendments from my noble friend Lady Coffey and myself.

I commend and support the amendment from my noble friend Lord Lucas. If we are going to go down this route with Natural England, it is hugely important that trusted partners take on the work of running the EDPs. If you look at some of the farming clusters already set up and ready to do this, it is much better that people who live on and work the land are the ones who take over and run the EDPs, rather than a quango based elsewhere, which is not there on a daily basis. I will be talking more about the trusted partner in later amendments, but the principle of what my noble friend Lord Lucas wants to do is absolutely right.