Arrangement of Business
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The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True)
My Lords, if I may, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, sought to rise to ask whether a Motion for an humble Address is debatable. It is a debatable matter, but a First Reading is not a debatable matter, I am afraid. The point I would have made then is that I did not think the sense of the House was that we wished to have a debate on a matter where a Bill was about to come before your Lordships’ House in an expedited way, by agreement in the usual channels.
The Deputy Chief Whip will now make a statement, which I think it would be helpful for noble Lords to hear, on the way in which this legislation will be dealt with. It will be dealt with in a way that will give noble Lords the maximum latitude to make their opinions felt, including the laying of amendments before Second Reading. I hope that we can hear what the Deputy Chief Whip is going to suggest, after agreement in the usual channels, as to how we should deal with this matter. Your Lordships will have ample and normal opportunities to discuss these matters as the Bill proceeds.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal for his comments. I want to take this opportunity to briefly set out the approach to considering the Counsellors of State Bill, following its introduction today. Second Reading will take place next Monday, on 21 November. Noble Lords can now sign up to speak on the Government Whips’ Office website; the speakers’ list will close at 4 pm this Friday. Committee and all other remaining stages will be taken on Wednesday 23 November. Once the Bill is published later today, Members will be able to table amendments for Committee. The deadline for the Marshalled List will be 30 minutes after the conclusion of Second Reading on Monday 21 November. Any amendments should be tabled in the usual way with the Public Bill Office. The Government Whips’ Office and the Public Bill Office can offer further advice.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the King for his Message yesterday and for his recognition of public interest and concern in the matter raised by the Deputy Chief Whip. In view of the expeditious way in which the King has suggested a solution to the question that arises, can the noble Earl confirm that the arrangements for this Bill, here and in another place, will be conducted with such equal expeditiousness that the Bill can reach the statute book in good time to be of practical use to the monarch?
Business of the House
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Baroness Noakes
I cannot promise the noble Lord something extremely brief, as I am sure he is aware. To be clear, this is about ensuring that the Motion is framed in wholly honest terms.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, I apologise to the House, but there is a great deal of noise as Peers leave the Chamber and I ask them to be quiet.
Baroness Noakes
I thank my noble friend the Deputy Chief Whip for that, though I did not really mind talking over noble Lords leaving the Chamber.
The Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, refers to the 28 January resolution that focused on the desirability of achieving a deal and then the need for the timely passage of legislation for a deal that commanded the support of the other place. I hope it has never been in dispute that the Government wanted to achieve a deal with the EU. My right honourable friend the previous Prime Minister spent nearly three years wrestling with that and her failure to do it brought about the demise of her political career. The current Prime Minister has said that he wants a deal and is committed to achieving one. He has been clear about that and I hope nobody will challenge his integrity on it. This should not be an issue about dealing with a resolution of the House focused on the achievability of the deal. We should be clear about the motives of those who originally supported the Motion on 28 January this year and those who continue to put obstacles in the way of achieving a deal.
Taking no deal off the table, as this current exercise aims to do, simply weakens the Government’s hand in negotiating with the EU. There is no doubt about that. Ask anyone in the business world. Donald Trump, who might not be admired by all as a President, nevertheless had a highly successful business career, for which he is entitled to respect. He has been clear that no deal is an essential part of the negotiating armoury: nobody in business goes into negotiations with their hands tied behind their back or having given away their negotiating cards.
It is very clear that most, though not all, noble Lords who proclaim their opposition to no deal are in fact disputing the result of the referendum and are against Brexit in its entirety. I believe that they cynically use the difficulties of achieving a satisfactory deal with the EU—it certainly is difficult—as cover for their real aim, which is to defeat Brexit. The Liberal Democrats have been admirably honest about their intentions. While they have railed against exiting without a deal at regular intervals, we should be under no illusion that their real aim is to reverse the outcome of the 2016 referendum. Their EU Parliament election campaign earlier this year was explicit on this. Indeed, their MEPs proudly, if that is the correct term, wear those vulgar T-shirts with “Bollocks to Brexit” printed on them as a badge of honour—not an attractive advertisement for the UK at the opening of the European Parliament.
The position of the Labour Party is much less clear. It is not a united party on this issue, but its true colours have been emerging as another champion of remain. Whether they call it a confirmatory referendum or some other euphemism, they want to remain and are talking about campaigning for remain. There may well be a few honourable souls left in the Labour Party who respect the clear message from the referendum, particularly those in Labour seats where the leave vote was strong; they are likely to be the minority. I shall say nothing today about my noble friends on these Benches who share the views held on the Benches opposite. I regret that if they continue to hold their views, they will not support this Government in seeking a deal on the best possible terms. I hope that, despite their reservations on Brexit, they will see that the Motion before us puts the Government in an impossible position, and I hope to see them voting in our Lobbies again. I hope that they are not simply trying to undermine the results of the referendum. I will similarly say nothing about those on the Cross Benches who have been in similar opposition to the Government in their attempts to get the best possible deal on Brexit, because I hope that they too will see, if for no other reason, that this business Motion is no way for us to work as a successful revising Chamber.
Rejecting no deal is about first putting off the day of our exit again and then again. We have done it twice so far. How many more times? Of course, the ultimate objective for those who reject the referendum result is to end up eventually revoking Article 50. That has been the explicit aim of some who align themselves with this and some of those shadowy organisations outside Parliament—
Role of the Lord Speaker
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The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, I think I do have a role here: that the House do now adjourn.
European Council
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The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, it is time for the Cross Benches, and then we will come to the noble Lord, Lord Richard.
The Earl of Courtown
I apologise to the noble Baroness. We have had 20 minutes of Back-Bench debate on this and we will now move on to the next Statement.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? The whole House is perfectly aware of his thoughts on this matter but, in this instance, we are moving on to the other Statement now.
Regional Museums
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Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the closures of regional museums, particularly in the North of England, and the impact of those closures on the United Kingdom’s creative industry and on the educational services provided to local schools and colleges.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, decisions on changes to regional museum service provision are for those who run them, including local authorities. However, we fully appreciate that regional museums are important for both local communities and local economies. This information is not collated centrally, but we have asked the Arts Council to provide what information it currently has available on museum closures and will consider the challenges facing regional and local museums more fully in the museums review announced in The Culture White Paper.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, in this 400th anniversary of William Shakespeare, it is surely fitting that DCMS graced the recent White Paper, to which the noble Lord referred, with a quotation from “Love’s Labour’s Lost”—an obscure one, but it is there. It raised two questions in my mind. Which Shakespearean character does the Minister most remind you of? Was it when he was a bit younger shaking his mane of golden locks around as the Fair Youth of the early sonnets, or is it today’s more busy activity as Ariel or Puck to successive Ministers? Why do the Government in the White Paper persist in praising local museums and galleries for the contribution they can make to economic growth, education and well-being, as Mr Greg Clark MP says in the paper, when the reality is £1 billion-worth of cuts and regional museum closures—up to 45 so far?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, knows his Shakespeare perhaps a little better than I do, and I would not like to put myself forward as any of the characters he mentioned. He has drawn attention to The Culture White Paper, which is of course very important. It sets out our intention to increase participation in culture, particularly by children and young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. As far as regional museums are concerned, we will be looking at the review of the sector and considering the role of the Government, the Arts Council and the Heritage Lottery Fund, as well as directly funded museums.
I should add at this stage a response to the noble Lord’s reference to a number of cuts. We urge caution when referencing data which some people have used from the Museums Association’s closure map. Many of the closures cited are no longer accurate; some museums have reopened or relocated while others have simply never closed. DCMS officials are engaged with the Museums Association and are keen to ensure that the resource is as accurate as possible.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, perhaps I may cite another quotation from The Culture White Paper. The Government say:
“Museums are jewels in our national crown and we want to ensure that they remain so and are as best-placed as they can be to continue supporting our aspirations for access, place-making and soft power”.
What credibility does that statement now have? Is it not a bit of a hostage to fortune in the face of government cuts to local authority funding which, as we have heard, have caused the closure of so many museums?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I should draw attention again to the points I have made on the Museums Association figures. We also have to look at new models of how museums are funded. As noble Lords have said, local authorities are significant funders of the arts. There are opportunities for new partnerships, and it is the role of the Arts Council to share good practice and help build capacity in both the cultural sector and local government. I can give a number of examples, such as Durham County Council’s recent blockbuster exhibition of the work of Yves Saint Laurent at the Bowes Museum. Any profits have been divided between the museum and the council.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister convinced that the regional museums—
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I am most grateful. In the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor referred to cuts in the heritage and arts fields as being a false economy. That was a splendid statement and we are all extremely grateful for it, and for the settlements that were announced. But does my noble friend agree that, unless some aid is given to local authorities, that statement will come to sound hollow? It really is crucial that we do not lose some of the brightest and best of our smaller museums which are scattered around the country.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack referred to the comprehensive spending review and how departmental spend on museums was ring-fenced. He also referred to some of the smaller regional museums. This is why we are holding the museums review as part of The Culture White Paper.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, if the rhetoric about the northern powerhouse is to have any reality behind it, it has to include access to culture and cultural developments. In the light of that, will the Minister give an assurance that the sword of Damocles hanging over the National Media Museum in Bradford might at last be lifted? Sometimes up there it feels as if London is saying, “Out, damned spot!”.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the right reverend Prelate referred to the northern powerhouse. Perhaps I should add that DCMS is sponsoring loans to museums at 1,629 different venues. As far as Manchester in particular is concerned—
The Earl of Courtown
I beg your pardon; I thought that the right reverend Prelate referred to Manchester. I think that the right reverend Prelate was referring to the Royal Photographic Society collection, some of which has now been moved to London. That move has provided far better access to the collection because the Victoria and Albert Museum has committed to digitising the collection and thus make it more widely available.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, do the Government have any plans to start reversing the cuts to local authority funding, because that is the root cause of the problem?
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Earl has made his view on any form of cuts very clear in the past, and of course I do not agree with him. This is why we are having a review into museums in The Culture White Paper.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
Is the Minister convinced that regional museums, large and small, and museums in the devolved authorities are having their fair share of works of art which are given in lieu of tax?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the small museums provide a marvellous service to all those concerned. I am unaware of the exact details of any works of art in lieu of tax, so I shall write to the noble Lord on that issue.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow
My Lords, for 20 years I had the honour to be heavily involved in the National Maritime Museum, which is now Royal Museums Greenwich, and was chairman for 10 years. Many of us felt that the big 12 in this country are so rich with their works of art and everything we have on that side. Our collections are marvellous. We discussed many times that, to really help the regional museums, the big 12 should use much of their collections which are below decks, to use an expression, and not above—nearly 90%—for exhibitions to go right round the country. That would have a huge effect on places, not just educationally and locally, but for tourism, which is a very important factor for the future. Will the Minister please look into that to see whether it can be encouraged and helped?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, perhaps I should point out to my noble friend that the national museums do in fact span the country. The Royal Armouries, the Tate, the Natural History Museum and the Science Museum all have regional sites outside London. The national collections have partnerships with other organisations, focusing not only on loans but on sharing skills, expertise, education and learning, and working with communities.
Baroness Afshar
My Lords, what provisions are being made for York, where not only has its museums been closed but many of the sites were flooded, and the council simply does not have the resources to deal with both problems?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I think that the noble Baroness was referring to the Jorvik Viking Centre in York. As we all know, it suffered a great deal of flooding damage earlier this year, or last year, and is now looking to raise a total of £2 million—£500,000 from general public fund-raising ventures and the remainder from private trusts, foundations and corporate sponsorship. I should point out to the noble Baroness and the House that York Minster, York Museums Trust and York Theatre Royal are all helping with items from the museum to be on show.
Aviation: Sustainable Fuel
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Lord Soley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what policies are in place to encourage the development of sustainable aviation fuels in the United Kingdom and what new proposals they are considering.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, the Government are assessing the benefits of making aviation biofuels eligible for the incentives that currently apply to biofuels used in road transport through the renewable transport fuel obligation. We aim to publish a consultation on legislative amendments to this scheme later this year, including proposals for aviation biofuels.
Lord Soley (Lab)
That is a useful statement and a step in the right direction, but is the Minister aware that we are still the largest and most advanced aviation producer in the world, except on sustainable fuels, where we have fallen seriously behind competitors in Europe, North America and Asia? What will the Government do to improve R&D on sustainable aviation fuels and will they please make sure that they include it in the renewable transport fuel obligation?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, as I mentioned in my Answer, we will be going out to consultation on this subject later this year, where we will look at increased targets for suppliers to provide long-term certainty to industry and to meet our climate change targets. We will also make biofuels more sustainable by increasing the supply of waste-based biofuels. We will also support investment in renewable aviation fuels by including it in the RTFO. We will also look at possible further competitions on top of the one already held, looking specifically at the jet biofuel issue.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, it sounds as if these excellent new fuels will be polluting our airports rather less in future, so can we bring forward the Heathrow decision?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Ahmad answered this question at great length last week or the week before. I do not think that there is anything more that I can add to it.
Viscount Slim (CB)
My Lords, I declare that some years ago I was the vice-chairman of the Air League. The Minister may wonder why, but the Air League has been going for many years. It was started by soldiers, not the light blue. We had certain very tough talks with the Government of the day on the taxing and pricing of aviation fuel. The Government of the day gave certain commitments, which I hope still stand. I say to the Minister on the very pertinent Question that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, raised that, if the taxes go up, everybody’s air ticket becomes more expensive.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Viscount raises an interesting point. To be perfectly honest, I am not aware of the answer, but if there is anything else that I can add I will write to him.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
In reply to a question asked in the Commons in January on the warnings from those involved in aviation that inaction and lack of clear policy direction from the Government were holding back research and development into, and the use of, renewable fuels in aviation compared with other countries, the Commons Minister said that,
“there is more than one way of killing a cat. Yes, alternative fuels may have an important role to play, but more importantly … a market-based mechanism will allow other types of technology to be developed which can then be used to offset the emissions from aviation, which will always be dependent on liquid fuels”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/1/16; col. 397.]
Does not that statement of policy, contrary to what has been implied today, indicate quite clearly that the Government are, in reality, giving the aviation industry a double whammy: dithering over policy on the development and use of renewable fuels in aviation, as well as still dithering over airport expansion in the south-east?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, of course I would not agree with the noble Lord, as no doubt the House would acknowledge. Sadly, the British Airways Solena project has not progressed, though it is still live and discussions are ongoing between Ministers and British Airways on this issue. As I said earlier, three projects won the advanced biofuels demonstration competition, dividing up a fund of £25 million. One is in Swindon, producing methane for HGV vehicles. The noble Lord is right that we want to look further at the problems relating to aviation fuel. Unfortunately, in the initial competition, there was only one application from an aviation fuel project. I hope there will be another competition in the near future which will include some more.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in so far as we have to look globally at the whole issue, including what is happening in the European Union. As the noble Baroness will no doubt be aware, we have been working with the International Civil Aviation Organization. In February, we reached agreement with other states in the ICAO on a global CO2 standard for aircraft, which is all part of the same picture. All new aeroplane designs applying for certification from 2020 will have to be compliant with the CO2 emissions standard. Designs already in production will also need to comply from 2023.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, when will the consultation be concluded and when will the Government implement it?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, as I said earlier, the consultation will start later this year. I do not have any information on when it will conclude but I have read out the areas that we shall be looking at. Of course, I will write to the noble Lord if there is any more information that I can give him.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that producing sustainable fuels with high levels of ethanol is not the problem? General aviation has a problem with combustion engines, which do not deal well with high levels of ethanol in the fuel, as the hoses, the filters and the seals are incompatible with these high levels.
The Earl of Courtown
My noble friend is a lot more expert on hoses, seals and other aspects of aircraft engines. He makes some good points and I am sorry that I cannot comment any further.
Tourism
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Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as chairman of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, our five-point plan for tourism makes clear the Government’s support for our tourism industry. The spending review reiterated this by increasing GREAT funding and providing a £40 million Discover England fund to provide direct investment to support growth and tourism in England, specifically ensuring that overseas visitors explore beyond London. We have revamped the English Tourism Council, with a focus on jobs and skills, and have established a Business Visits and Events Board to support business tourism.
Lord Lee of Trafford
Having pleased the tourist industry by leaving the core funding unchanged and lifting the GREAT moneys, as the Minister referred to, and by allocating £40 million to its Discover England Fund, the Government now have sadly shot themselves in the foot by merging VisitEngland, which markets England domestically, with VisitBritain, which markets all Britain overseas. Does the Minister realise that this subsuming, without any industry consultation, flies in the face of what the DCMS Select Committee, then chaired by the present Secretary of State, recommended, arguing for a clear delineation of separate roles? Does he realise that this has caused the 52 tourism trade bodies and key individuals in tourism to write to the Secretary of State strongly objecting, caused the chief executive of VisitEngland to resign in protest and severely compromised the relationship of VisitScotland and Visit Wales with VisitBritain? Now England joins an exclusive club of two—Chechnya and the Vatican—in not having a stand-alone tourist board.
The Earl of Courtown
I think that what the noble Lord is trying to say is how important it is that English tourism has a strong voice. However, this is not a merger. VisitEngland is already part of the British Tourist Authority, which trades as VisitBritain and VisitEngland. All we are doing is clarifying governance arrangements and lines of accountability with the BTA. This will ensure that there is clarity of direction, and will drive efficiency and effectiveness.
Lord Harrison
My Lords, given that tourism is an important economic industry, rather than fiddling around with existing successful structures, would the Government not be better advised to place tourism under the aegis of BIS or, at the very least, to include it in the title of the department where it currently finds itself, that of Culture, Media and Sport? Why not add tourism to the title to give it the energy that is required to treat it seriously?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, we do treat tourism extremely seriously, as was made apparent in the recent spending review. DCMS takes 1% of spending but contributes a sixth to the UK economy. We must also remember that employment in the UK tourism industry has increased from 2.66 million to 2.81 million jobs; that is almost twice the rate of non-tourist-related industries. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said about where tourism’s natural home is, and must admit that I feel it is in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, at a time when the cathedrals and parish churches of this country, some of our greatest tourist attractions, are very much in the news, could my noble friend spare a moment to give thanks for all those volunteers without whom many of our tourist attractions, including those owned by the National Trust, could not properly function?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right in what he says on one of his most important subjects—he continually refers to the cathedrals and churches. He is right to congratulate the volunteer work done by so many people for no recompense whatsoever but for the sheer love of looking after these great areas.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, given that the Government warmly welcome the contribution of the creative industries to tourism, and will, I am sure, seize the opportunity to do so again today, is it nevertheless a matter of regret that the five core subjects announced in June for the baccalaureate for secondary schools exclude music and art?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Lord and I took part in a debate only last week about the music industry and small venues. Many of us reiterated during it how important music is, as far as exports are concerned, for the overall economy. The noble Lord also talked about education relating to music. As far as GCSE music is concerned, there is a rise in that sector, but of course we all take due account of what the noble Lord said.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
The Minister interpreted the Question again but, on the key point, why the U-turn, bearing in mind that the department and the Select Committee reinforced the need for separation between VisitEngland and VisitBritain? What has caused this U-turn? Is it the Chancellor of the Exchequer cutting off his nose to spite his face, or does the Minister have an alternative view?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, the whole issue relating to the triennial review, which I think is what the noble Lord is getting to grips with, is that it was brought in by the Public Bodies Act 2011, in the early part of the coalition Government. We remain committed to the principle of the review, including the importance of ensuring clarity of roles for the tourist boards. But, as I said earlier, we have decided not to proceed with the separation of the two bodies because greater collaboration will enable us to extend the reach and impact of both brands. Separation would also incur costs and we decided that the money could be better spent on growing the visitor economy.
Chagos Islands
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The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, the Government’s public consultation about a potential resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory concluded on 27 October. We are now examining the results and hope to take a decision on the way ahead soon. This 12-week consultation drew views from around 1,200 Chagossians and continues the conversation with Chagossian communities as part of our review of resettlement policy, which started in 2012. That included an independent feasibility study, which concluded at the end of January 2015.
Lord Luce (CB)
My Lords, this week is the 50th anniversary of the decision to provide a United States base in Diego Garcia, on British territory and in the Indian Ocean, which then led to the decision to deport 1,500 Chagossians, most of whom were indigenous inhabitants. As the KPMG report, commissioned by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, has this year concluded that there is no reason why resettlement should not take place, will the Government make next year’s renewal of the agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom conditional on a commitment by both parties to facilitate and support resettlement of the Chagossians, thus rectifying a grave human rights injustice?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government regret the way the Chagossians were removed from the British Indian Ocean Territory in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The Government, along with successive Governments before them, have said that what happened was clearly wrong. This is why substantial compensation was rightly paid. The noble Lord mentioned the renewal of the agreement with the American military for occupation of Diego Garcia and we will, no doubt, take these matters into account.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, when I wrote to my noble friend Lady Ashton, who was then at the European Commission, to ask whether the United Kingdom was eligible for European Union funding for resettlement, the answer was that we certainly were? Does the Minister agree that the cost of these settlements should not fall exclusively on the British taxpayer and that, apart from the European Union, the United States, international organisations and the private sector should be approached for funding and investment?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, we will consider all these factors once the consultation is finished. As I said earlier, the feasibility study concluded on schedule. As there were still uncertainties about how any resettlement could work, and potential costs, we went into the consultation system. That is also why we are examining the results of the consultation very carefully.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, will the Government publish a draft of their decision for consultation with the All-Party Group on the Chagos Islands? Will they also give both Houses an opportunity to debate the review before a final decision on resettlement is made?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I draw attention to the dedication of the all-party group on this issue over many years. Whether or not there will be an opportunity for this to be debated at some stage will depend on whether noble Lords try to get parliamentary time for it. Once the analysis is made, the Government will make an announcement. I will write to the noble Lord about whether it will be published.
Lord Deben (Con)
Will my noble friend make quite sure that whatever arrangements are made, they protect and support the remarkable new ocean reserve which is around the Chagos Islands? This is a proud part of Britain’s dealings in this area.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, refers to the marine protected area. He is quite right that this is one of the most important areas of biodiversity in that sort of environment on the planet.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, the Government now appear to accept that this was one of the more disgraceful episodes of our colonial history. Does the Minister also accept that the Chagossians—the victims—will find it difficult after exile in Mauritius, in the Seychelles and in Crawley to return to life on those remote islands? What is being done about the provision of jobs? Is the US, for example, prepared to offer jobs on their base in Diego Garcia to those Chagossians who choose to return?
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Lord makes a very good point, particularly relating to the Chagossian communities in Crawley and Manchester. Of course, they are going to want a certain lifestyle if they return to those islands. I know that the KPMG report looked at the numbers that could be employed by the authorities on Diego Garcia, but I can tell the House that, until we make a final examination of the results of this consultation, nothing can be agreed.
Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
My Lords, as a member of the All-Party Group on the Chagos Islands, I ask the Minister to be more precise about the word “soon”. This is a word that has been used by successive Governments for the past eight years, to my certain knowledge. Frankly, we would like some more precision.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, somebody whispered in my ear, “Very soon”. I and other noble Lords who have been Members of this House for a very long time have used the term “soon”, but I can assure the noble Lord that it will be soon.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, there have been 16 years of litigation, which has been very costly to the taxpayer and to Britain’s reputation for human rights. Will the Government undertake to abide by the forthcoming ruling of the UK Supreme Court concerning the right of abode and the marine protected area?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I cannot comment on cases going through the courts at present, but if there is any more detail I will write to the noble Baroness.
UK Territorial Space: Spanish Incursions
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Lord Hoyle
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to prevent incursions by Spanish vessels and aircraft into United Kingdom waters and airspace.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, incursions are an unacceptable violation of British sovereignty, and we take them seriously. The Royal Navy challenges all unlawful maritime incursions, and the Government protest to Spain at an appropriate level following all air and maritime incursions.
Lord Hoyle (Lab)
I thank the Minister for that reply, but I must tell him that things can change rapidly. For instance, another bone of contention is border controls, with people having to queue at the border. An inspection took place on 27 October which was supposed to be secret but which had been in the Spanish press. Not surprisingly, there was no queue on that day, but the day after, people were waiting for four hours at the border. Can Gibraltarians be present at all times in discussions with the Spanish, and will the Government bear in mind the health, safety and welfare of the people of Gibraltar?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Lord mentions the border issue between Gibraltar and Spain. We noted that delays increased the day after the European Commission visit. The welfare and security of Gibraltarians must come first. The noble Lord also mentioned that any discussion about the future of Gibraltar must include all parties—and when I say all parties, I mean the United Kingdom, Gibraltar and Spain.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, given that the queues increased to three hours after the visit by the EU inspectors, should we not insist that such visits not be announced in advance but be spot checks?
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Lord makes a good point. I noted that there was an increase in time but if we go back to 2013, the Spanish were accused of queues of almost seven hours at the border. It is a little less than that now. The noble Lord is quite right in drawing attention to delays that happened after the visit of the European Commission.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, in light of the some 300 or so incursions into British Gibraltan territorial waters in the first nine months of this year, are Her Majesty’s Government using all possible methods to liaise with the Spanish Government? Would matters be made better or worse were the United Kingdom not a member of the European Union?
The Earl of Courtown
I do not see the relevance of whether the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. On the relationships between Spain and the United Kingdom over these incursions, the Spanish ambassador is summoned frequently. Summoning is a very serious form of diplomatic protest. The extent to which we have employed it is particularly unprecedented when we talk about an EU and NATO partner.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
What will happen when the current two Royal Navy ships finish their work in 2017? Do the Government intend to have some decent ship to deal with the incursions by the Guardia Civil on their much faster boats?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, our assessment is that the assets, structure and procedures of the Royal Navy’s Gibraltar Squadron are enough for the job but I take very careful note of what the noble Baroness said. We want to make sure that these challenging maritime incursions can be dealt with by our assets there.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the Minister will be well aware that the ships we have in Gibraltar are in fact very tender, do not have very long range and are not nearly fast enough. Of course, the people manning them are very proud of them and do their best but it is their job to say that they are doing their best and they are good. The reality is that they are not good enough for the job and because of that there will be an incident where someone may be killed or badly injured. The Government of Gibraltar have said that they are willing to pay for faster, bigger craft. That has been done before with other countries we have been responsible for. Could we look at this very closely, so that we can get these new craft and then be able to do things that will not risk injury or death for our people there?
The Earl of Courtown
I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord said concerning our naval assets in Gibraltar. I will ensure that that is drawn to the attention of the department.
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon
My Lords, since we are discussing preventing people from straying on to territory where they should not be, can anything be done to stop senior serving military officers appearing on television?
Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
My Lords, what consideration have the Government given to the impact on Gibraltar of possible withdrawal from the EU? What guarantees can the Government give to the people of Gibraltar that there will be no border closure and that they will continue having access to the EU single market if the people were to vote to leave the EU?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, as I have said before, my right honourable friend is focused on delivering successful renegotiation but I see the United Kingdom and Gibraltar’s future as being part of a reformed EU. In my view, it is in the interests of Gibraltar, the UK and the European Union as a whole that our work on improving the competitiveness, fairness and accountability of the EU is successful.
Baroness Wilcox (Con)
My Lords, that being the case, I am delighted to think that the Prime Minister will go in and fight for our fishing vessels. The rest of the Question was to do with them. We all know for sure that the Spanish fleet, which is bigger than the rest of the fleets put together in the whole of the European community, abuses at all times its quotas. We have only self-policing in the European community now. No country can report another for cheating. Is it not time that our Prime Minister looked at this and came back with something for the British fisherman?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the fishing policy in the Gibraltar waters is the concern of the Government of Gibraltar. We will take careful note of what my noble friend says.
Care Sector: Apprenticeships
Earl of Courtown Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, apprenticeships are paid jobs with quality training. Officials in BIS and the Department of Health are discussing what can be done to offer more opportunities as part of the commitment to 3 million apprenticeship starts in this Parliament. Our priority is to work with employers to increase the number of apprenticeships. We are developing a comprehensive plan for growth, including a renewed emphasis on communications and a greater role for the public sector.
Baroness Bakewell (Lab)
I thank the noble Earl for that Answer. I was specifically concerned about the great shortage of nurses, who are needed in this country. The burden of the need for nurses falls particularly heavily on care homes. On Wednesday, the National Care Forum will publish a survey showing that in the care workforce, only 12% are under 25 years old and 50% are over 45 years old. Recruitment is difficult because there is no clear career pathway—it is seen as a low-wage, high-turnover job. So can the Government offer young people a lifetime career in caring, with training and promotion prospects from care assistants into nursing professionals?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Baroness asked a number of questions. She asked about a career pathway for young people going into the sector. If we look at the apprenticeship starts by sector, and particularly at the Trailblazer system of industry-designed apprenticeships for getting people into them, there is one for nursing, another for adult care, another for healthcare and another for early years. There have also been in excess of 250,000 new apprenticeship starts in the care sector between 2010-11 and 2013-14. Apprenticeships are one route for those who want to progress into a satisfying career within the care sector.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, the Christie report points out that 20% of nursing students drop out of their university courses, which is a waste of their careers and of public money. Can the Minister say what the Government are planning to do to reduce this dropout rate as a matter of urgency? To have a shortage is not good enough, but to waste 20% of those who enrol in university courses is a disgrace.
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Baroness is quite right about people leaving these courses after they have been accepted on them. Ministers in various departments are discussing this issue.
Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)
My noble friend’s question refers to the care sector. Does the noble Earl agree that the care sector must extend to domiciliary care—care given in people’s own home—where job satisfaction is even lower, what with 15-minute visits and so on? Improving the quality of that care is essential. Does he agree that these apprenticeships should also take domiciliary care workers into account?
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Baroness is quite right. Domiciliary care for people in their own home is so important. At the same time, the standard of care also has to increase.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
Is the Minister aware that the RCN has estimated that more than 3,000 overseas nurses currently earn less than £35,000 and are therefore liable to be deported in 2017 as a result of the Immigration Rules? Can he tell me how many of those nurses are in the care sector? Can he also tell me why nurses are not on the shortage occupation list, which would exempt them from those regulations? Will he make it his business to see whether the Home Secretary can change that?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Baroness mentioned the shortage occupation list. In February, following a commission from my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to conduct a limited review into a number of occupations on the shortage occupation list, which included roles in the health sector, the Migration Advisory Council advised against putting nurses on the shortage occupation list, after taking evidence from a range of stakeholders. Controlling migration is part of our plan to build a system that is fairer to British citizens. Employers must first try to recruit from the settled workforce.
Baroness Emerton (CB)
Does the noble Earl agree that the apprenticeship scheme should encourage young people, particularly those coming into nursing, but that at the same time it is important that enough supervision and basic knowledge are given to apprentices before they are allowed to practise, to prevent any mishaps or mistakes being made and ensure that the quality of care is satisfactory?
The Earl of Courtown
The noble Baroness is quite correct that the quality of care in these roles is so important, as is the fact that so many young people are coming into this area. According to the overall apprenticeship figures, covering the whole employment workforce, there are now more than 119,000 apprenticeship starts for those under the age of 19, which is an increase of 4.6%.
Lord Avebury (LD)
Can the noble Earl tell us the cost of employing agency nurses in the health service in the current—
Lord Lucas
Does my noble friend think that the care sector is perhaps a particularly suitable occupation for people over 45? When you have brought up a few children you have had the rough edges knocked off you, and are likely to be a much easier companion for an old person.
The Earl of Courtown
My noble friend is quite right. I think the noble Baroness mentioned older people leaving the profession. As I understand it, the current figures are flattening out and improving, and there is more retention of people approaching retirement age.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister confident that there really is an attractive career path for young people going into the care profession, whether in homes or in domiciliary care, and that there really is a pathway through to nursing in this vital vocational route, taking into account that demand in this area will expand significantly?
The Earl of Courtown
I think that the fact that, as I mentioned, there has been in excess of 250,000 new apprenticeship starts in the care sector in the last three to four years speaks for itself.