Sudan

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register and declare that I was in Khartoum, accompanied by my noble friend Lady Suttie, during the Easter Recess. That was my 16th visit to Sudan. In March I met separately with both generals, Burhan and Hemedti. I played a small part in supporting the political dialogue among civilian forces and then the signatories to the framework agreement, to which the Statement referred. I am in constant contact with friends and their families, colleagues and those in civilian groups who continue to face incredible fear, hardship and suffering as a result of this horrific violence.

My points to the Minister relate first to the immediate and then to the medium term. His Majesty’s Government must be doing everything they can to protect civilians. We already know that only five of 59 medical centres are functioning in Khartoum. The Sudan Doctors’ Union says that the health system, in a city of 10 million, is “beyond collapse”. Civilian areas have also been targeted. Combatants must be warned in clear terms that targeting civilians, from airstrikes in civilian areas to looting and pressurising for water and supplies, is a war crime. Water and electricity are in an unreliable condition at the moment, with temperatures of nearly 40 degrees centigrade on my recent visit there. Medical supplies are scarce and infrastructure throughout the country is unsafe. Threats to “sweep” neighbourhoods are a use of terror against civilians, and all combatants need to be warned of that in the clearest terms.

It is underreported, as most journalists are in Khartoum, but I am deeply concerned about the humanitarian safety of civilians in Darfur and other conflict-afflicted states within Sudan, where so much political dialogue had been focused since the coup. Diplomatic, INGO and civil society leaders must also be protected. We must now have plans for securing evacuation routes if necessary. I know that airport and that area extremely well. It will be complex but it may be necessary.

Also, our Prime Minister must immediately call for and, with Quad leaders, Egypt and Gulf allies, ensure at the very least that there is no munition and military equipment replenishment, as there is currently limited monitoring and geolocation of these supplies. We must quickly and in clear terms warn those who seek to disrupt, such as Islamist or former Bashir regime actors, that there will be personal, co-ordinated sanctions from the international community. The Minister now knows why, for months, I have repeatedly been calling for action on the Wagner Group.

Beyond securing immediate and medium-term safety and humanitarian support, I acknowledge and fully agree with the joint statement from Secretary Blinken and our Foreign Secretary, but now our Prime Minister and President Biden must, at Head of Government and Head of State level, speak with President Mohammed bin Zayed and President Sisi. The loyalties of those two countries to the combatants and their influence on them is widely known, and together with King Salman, who can offer brokerage, we must ensure a cessation for the festival of Eid.

The cessation must be monitored through an agreed mechanism, and we now need to be open to progressing to Chapter 7 processes and begin to plan and pretrain a potential AU/ UN peacekeeping component with UK support. Airports, sea and land terminals, and key strategic infrastructure must become safe and operational immediately, and trusted in the medium to long term.

I understand that some belligerents today are willing to engage again in dialogue. This must be actively supported and not discouraged by the actions of regional powers. If a Saudi and former Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok initiative can be started for the medium term, we must support this. I believe that there can be an opportunity for a Riyadh peace summit, linked with an Eid cessation, with Foreign Minister-level representatives from the Quad, IGAD, the AU and UNITAMS to agree the continuation of the cessation of hostilities, the safety of key sites, at least minimal engagement on high-level security sector reform and the recommencement of engagement with civil society.

Finally, there is a major fear that, should the existing command structures of the SAF and the RSF break down and resources become scarce, the real and present threat of tribal, ideological, theological and dispersed violence will create an even more horrific humanitarian crisis than we are seeing now. We cannot afford for Sudan to descend to be a failed state. This is the time for us at Heads of Government level to be intensively involved to prevent that. Civil leaders have worked so hard to come around common proposals for transition— I had the privilege to play an extremely modest role in that—and that cannot be lost. Sudan is a country I love. I admire its people, and we must not let them down.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their questions and for much, indeed all, of what they said. I agree with them. The situation in Sudan is appalling and it is abhorrent. Attacks are taking place on diplomats and, as the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, said, on INGOs and civil society actors. I recognise the important role of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. He has constantly kept me updated, and I am grateful for that. I welcome his detailed insights from the work he has carried out, and I know how much personal commitment, passion and principle he has applied in bringing the various sides together. It is tragic to see that, after what was offered as great hope following the removal of the former president, both sides have now descended into what can be described only as a country heading towards civil war. Clearly, Khartoum is being challenged immensely.

Both the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, talked about outside influences. There are particular concerns over the Wagner Group, and while statements have been made, I think we take it for what it is. We know the influence of the Wagner Group. It is not just a mercenary force; it has economic clout behind it. We have already seen its influence in other parts of the African continent, particularly in the Sahel, and we need to be very vigilant about what is happening on the ground. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, also talked about Darfur. Of course, it was the centre of the RSF, but they have clearly travelled much further around the country. On my previous visit to Sudan, I visited Darfur in the aftermath of the conflict, particularly to address the issue of preventing sexual violence in conflict. It was tragic still to see not just the marginalisation but the sheer lack of engagement and the lack of rights for women and minorities. I fear that the situation will get much worse.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the oil pipelines. It is interesting that our reports suggest that there is no evidence that either side is attacking those pipelines. If there is one glimmer of hope, it is that they both recognise the economic value attached to this asset of Sudan.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the support that we are giving to international organisations, particularly UN agencies and others. We are working very closely with them. He will have followed the statement in the UN Security Council. I have a trip scheduled to the UN in the early part of May, and I am scoping to see whether there is further action that we can take in that respect. I am the Minister responsible for the UN and recognise that, as a penholder, we have a specific responsibility.

Both noble Lords talked of other partners. I am sure they followed the joint statement made by Secretary of State Blinken and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. My right honourable friend has also been engaging quite directly, notwithstanding his visit to the Far East. He has had a series of calls at a very senior level with key partners and discussions at the G7, and with a number of Gulf states which, as both noble Lords pointed out, have a role to play. We are engaging very closely with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, and my right honourable friend had a call with Foreign Minister Shoukry of Egypt. Indeed, on a recent visit to Egypt I raised Sudan directly with him, and we recognise Egypt’s influence over both sides in this conflict.

While noting what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, said about Heads of Government engagement, I am sure he will recognise that the most senior diplomats at Foreign Minister level are engaging extensively and that all our partners, including those in the Gulf, recognise the important role of the African Union and IGAD, and that they need to impress upon both sides the need for an immediate cessation of hostilities. We need a cessation, and Eid provides exactly that kind of respite. We are exploring that fully with our key partners.

Equally, how do we bring about some kind of sustainable solution? I am sure both noble Lords agree that both sides need to recognise that violence is not a means to an end. If one side was to win over the other, whichever that might be, that would not suddenly green-light the embrace of the international community, and that is a point we have made consistently. We have a special envoy to the region, who I know has been engaging extensively with other key parties and talking on an almost daily basis with senior officials in that regard. That conversation is ongoing.

On mediation efforts being undertaken by IGAD, the UN and the African Union, we are of course fully supportive. However, as I have already said, we are also talking to other key players, including those in the Gulf, who have important influence in this respect.

On corridors for humanitarian aid and to allow the departure of foreign nationals, we are working on that as a key priority. Both noble Lords will have seen the Foreign Office advice. At the moment, some of our diplomats are on the ground. The noble Lord referred to Japan and other counties that are planning evacuations. Without going into the details, we are very much seized of all the options we need to keep open to ensure the safety and security of, first and foremost, British nationals, including diplomatic staff, and also other nationalities. We are working very closely with them to ensure that there is a respite and that a corridor is opened to allow that access to be provided.

I fear that the humanitarian situation will go from bad to worse. The UN OCHA has been attacked directly, as the noble Lord Collins mentioned. The WFP has also been targeted specifically. Repeated attempts are being made on the diplomatic corps, and we saw the attack on the EU ambassador. These things are not just alarming and tragic but are real warning signals, and therefore we have to ensure that the maximum diplomatic pressure is put on. A notable reference was made to sanctions et cetera, and, while I cannot speculate, we will look at whatever tools we have and work in conjunction with key partners in this respect.

Our priority remains an immediate cessation of the hostilities for the short term. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that we need long-term solutions. He will be perhaps best placed in the House currently to agree with me that, notwithstanding diplomatic efforts, long-term planning and investment in the diplomatic channels, recent events have shown again how vulnerable the situation is on the ground.

For clarity, we are of course currently advising against all travel to Sudan. Our global centre is taking calls and supporting British nationals quite directly, as well as their relatives and families. This is a fluid situation; indeed, from the time I was first briefed to the time I was coming to the House, I was continuing to be briefed about this situation.

I assure noble Lords that I will continue to update them, and I would welcome a specific meeting. I have said to our special envoy to invite the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for a more detailed meeting, and I have taken on board some of the noble Lord’s suggestions. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that I will keep him updated in the usual way—not just in the House but through the demonstrably strong channels of communication that we have across Front Benches.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, the question of threats is one that I am slightly bemused about. I want to pay tribute to the work of UK diplomats in Sudan. I have been going there since 2011; my diocese has a link with the whole of Sudan going back over 40 years and I am in daily contact with the Archbishop of Sudan. In his cathedral the other day, he managed to get all the families—42 of them including children—secured in an internal building. They then had to watch their homes and elements of the cathedral being shot up, all their vehicles destroyed, offices ransacked and so on.

It leads me to this question about threats. If we are dealing with people who simply cannot be threatened, then frankly sanctions are meaningless for many of them—maybe I am being naive. What other tools do we have at our disposal that make threats reasonable and viable? There is no point threatening things that cannot be delivered. We have talked about diplomatic routes; I wonder whether there are other back channels that can be used.

My fear, if I am honest about this, is that this violence is the trigger, with the breakdown of order, for other fractures to open up—for example, ethnic religious fractures. The Christian community is largely African. The Arabic population sneers at the Christians because they are African. They talk about their language being twitter language—they do not mean social media. My fear is that this will spill over and create other fractures that then become more complicated. Are there other back channels, or other civil society actors such as religious leaders and so on, that could be used by diplomatic services to open up conversations that might not be doable by the political actors?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I too recognise the importance of religious communities. Again, reflecting on my last visit to Sudan, and as the right reverend Prelate will know, I regard inviting in religious leaders as an essential part of how we build sustainable peace. I remember there was great hope at that time. There were discussions about the suspension of Sunday as a holiday for Christians. I was delighted that, through our interventions, the then governor in Khartoum issued a decree that provided for the reinstatement of Sunday as a holiday rather than imposing Friday as a universal holiday for everyone across the country. That showed the importance of faith leaders as well as civil society leaders in finding sensible, practical and workable solutions. I agree with the right reverend Prelate that the current situation does not allow an effective assessment of which civil society actors can play a part and where, because of the vulnerability of and the front-line attacks on diplomats and humanitarian workers. The right reverend Prelate talked about back channels. Of course, they are important in conflict resolution—be they long-standing or new conflicts—and should remain open. We are working through our very senior officials, who know the parties and the personalities, including our special envoy, who has engaged extensively. As someone who has been Minister for a while, I know that those relationships matter to be able to unlock some of the more difficult issues.

However, we have made our own assessment with key partners. As I said to the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, in my earlier response, we are working with Gulf partners and recognise their important role and influence—and Egypt’s role—in bringing about an immediate ceasefire for the short term, and then bringing parties together.

Of course, there are many levers open to us, not just diplomacy but strengthening, for example, some of our key messaging. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, there can be no winners. If one or the other of the two sides is thinking that they can prevail because they have air power, or because they have control of the airport and so forth, we are making things clear in all our engagements, and consistently through the troika and quad and engagements with our Gulf partners. That is done in a very structured way. So, whether it is one of our Gulf partners having those conversations, through back channels or directly, or it is us or one of our other key allies such as the United States, the message received by all sides is a consistent one: put your arms down now, cease fire immediately and then let us talk peace and negotiate a truce on the ground.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords my entry in the register of interests and my work in Sudan. I want to associate myself closely with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Purvis, particularly regarding the urgent need to establish safe channels for injured civilians and foreign nationals to leave. I welcome what the Minister has said in that regard. Does he agree that there is a very real risk that this conflict could become a regional proxy war? Can he also say whether we are working with others in planning to provide essential humanitarian aid such as medicines and water? I know that he said a little on that just now, but I wonder whether he could say some more.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the important work that the noble Baroness had done in Sudan. Of course, I recognise her commitment. On her second question, yes, but it is planning. As I said earlier, we have humanitarian aid workers being attacked indiscriminately for doing their jobs in providing support, be it food supplies or medical supplies. Of course, we are working very closely with our UN partners in particular and, as I said, with IGAD and the African Union. Indeed, the SG of the AU has also suggested an intervention, but at the moment the situation on the ground means that Khartoum airport cannot be accessed and accessibility through land routes is equally challenging.

On the widening of the conflict, tomorrow we have a Question on the situation in South Sudan. Let us not forget that South Sudan is heavily reliant on access routes from Sudan, be it through the air or through the River Nile. So, we are cognisant that this issue of lack of accessibility for humanitarian support is not limited to ordinary Sudanese civilians; it has wide-ranging impacts across the region. Certainly, we are monitoring the impact that is having in the immediate neighbourhood, particularly in South Sudan, which itself is continuing to suffer from immense political and economic vulnerabilities.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I remember many a year ago the British ambassador rank briefing me—or warning me—about the consequences of activities in the Sahel. If I may, I will add to the powerful remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the right reverend Prelate. I remember I had recent occasion to sit with the Libyan Foreign Minister, who pointed out that there are difficulties in the south of that country in matters relating to infiltration by the Wagner Group.

Moral condemnation of the Wagner Group in itself is not the sole answer. What is being done to improve governance and security in the countries most affected by the Wagner Group? What is known about the longer-term specific agenda of the Wagner Group in Africa in its deployment of economic and political interventions to deepen violence and corruption? Finally, what can be done to curtail the activities of that group, including uniting pan-European activities? The British have had personnel in the region—I am not sure what their status is at this time—but the French have had a large pull-out from the region. What on earth can be done about this situation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount raises specific questions, particularly on the activities of the Wagner Group. On the surface, there is no immediate information about Russian or proxy involvement but, as I alluded to earlier, the fact is that the Wagner Group is very sophisticated in its approach. This is no ordinary mercenary group: it has a specific model of influence, with an extension of destabilisation and economic dependency. Notwithstanding Russia’s denials, we of course know of its direct links with the Russian state. We also know of the clear evidential base for its involvement elsewhere on the continent.

I assure the noble Viscount that, working across government, we are very much seized of its role not just in the African continent but further afield. We have seen, for example, what is happening in Ukraine. We will continue not just to be vigilant but to ensure that we have a full sense of the role of the group and its influences across different parts of the world, particularly Africa. But the challenge remains that where it sees vulnerabilities and where gaps are created, it very quickly fills them with the option of coming in to provide not just some kind of de facto security support but an economic lifeline. That may mean that deals are done with certain countries—or certain leaders in certain parts of the world—which may be of personal benefit to the then leader. That gives the assurance of its sustainability as a group within that country or region. I once again assure the noble Viscount that we are very cognisant of the increasing and destabilising influence and role of the Wagner Group, but its operation is both sophisticated and intent on exploiting destabilisation.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, late last year the UNFPA estimated that there were 2.7 million women and girls in Sudan in need of gender-based violence protection, mitigation or response services. It was noted that women human rights defenders were being targeted particularly hideously. Of course, the current situation is extremely tragic and volatile. We are talking about immediate emergency responses but does the Minister acknowledge that it is important, wherever possible, that even in these acute circumstances the UK applies a gender-based lens? It should look at providing whatever protection it is possible to provide while also thinking about ways in which peace can be made or, at least, some kind of stability can be achieved, with an end to the fighting. Experience from other places shows that the involvement of women and girls can be really important. Will the Government work for that when it is possible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The short answer to the noble Baroness is: absolutely. I recognise fully, as we all do, the importance of engaging women in bringing about conflict resolution and their role in ensuring that peace is sustainable. If evidence is needed it is there: when women are involved in both bringing about and sustaining peace, peace agreements last longer, while societies are more stable and prosperous, and move forward quickly. However, as the noble Baroness recognises, the reality on the ground is that we are far from that.

We have invested a great deal over many years in various initiatives to empower women and ensure that girls enter education. I alluded earlier to my own visit to Darfur, on the preventing sexual violence in conflict issue. The tragic consequence of the past conflict in Darfur was still having an impact. When I met some leaders of a local council, I asked “Where are the women leaders?” There was one brave woman who came forward. While they spoke through an interpreter, it was clear to me that the leaders around her, who wished to give me a much rosier picture than the truth, were—how can I best state it diplomatically?—not very happy with her presence there. I give all praise to her courage, but the fact was that even in that slightly more stable situation, women were not being engaged effectively in any shape or form.

We are a long way off from that being a reality in Sudan. However, the reality is in recognising that if peace prevails, any negotiations need to be inclusive of all communities. We will certainly make that case, along with our partners. The right reverend Prelate talked about different religious leaders but, ultimately, it needs to be inclusive by ensuring that women play their rightful part at the table, in a pivotal way, to ensure that peace can be first brought about and then sustained.

Vladimir Kara-Murza

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, as we heard when the Urgent Question was asked, at least 31 Russian officials have been directly involved in the false prosecution and imprisonment of Vladimir. The Canadians and Americans appear to have sanctioned all those responsible already. Andrew Mitchell said in the other place that he had instructed officials to investigate the possibility of sanctioning everyone involved in the trial. When can we expect this investigation to conclude? What is the timeframe? I hope that the Minister can tell us.

Andrew Mitchell also spoke about Vladimir’s well-being: there have clearly been two attempts to poison him already. He said that the Russian ambassador had been summoned and that Vladimir’s health will be right at the top of the agenda. I hope that the Minister can tell us the outcome of those discussions and what next steps will be taken.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

On the noble Lord’s first question, of course sanctions remain an obvious tool for us. I assure the noble Lord that, in line with what my right honourable friend said in the other place, we are looking at all tools available to us, including the issue of sanctions. I accept, as the noble Lord pointed out, that other countries including the US and Canada have already sanctioned a number of individuals, while, going back to the time of those responsible for issues around Sergei Magnitsky, we have sanctioned two individuals. But I take on board what the noble Lord has said. I cannot give him a specific date—I am sure he will appreciate that—but I assure him that the FCDO is fully seized with ensuring that appropriate steps can be taken with whatever tools are at our disposal.

On the second question, the summoning of the ambassador did indeed happen. We made it very clear, under our view of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, that we should be given full access. We have demanded that. Mr Kara-Murza has been detained for just over a year. During that time, we have made numerous applications for consular access. The noble Lord will be aware that, with regret, Russia does not recognise dual nationality. That is Russia’s perspective, not ours. Again, we made it very clear to the Russian ambassador during his summoning that we require full access. Indeed, the point that we should be granted full consular access was made by our ambassador on the ground after the verdict was handed out on the steps in conjunction with others. I will update the House, the noble Lord and the Front Benches appropriately if we see progress in this regard. I can assure the noble Lord that this remains a key priority.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, with respect, the Minister did not explain why we did not choose to be in lockstep with the Canadians in November 2022. On 10 November, Canada announced the extension of its sanctions to 23 individuals across the Russian justice and security sector,

“including police officers and investigators, prosecutors … including senior Russian government officials”.

So why is it only now, in connection with a joint national, that these options are being considered? With regard to those whom we recognise as joint nationals even if the Russians do not, who are living in Russia and are now vulnerable to a highly politicised and non-independent judiciary, is the point not that we are simply summoning an ambassador and warning that there should be consular access, rather than that there will be repercussions across the entirety of the politicised judiciary, investigative prosecutors and government officials—that they will be instantly sanctioned, and jointly sanctioned by the US, Canada, the UK and our partners?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, we do work very much in lockstep with our key partners. Systems and structures of sanctioning are different in each country and processes need to be followed, including on ensuring the robustness of the sanctions we apply. There is little more that I can add to what I have already said. But, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, we are very much seized of all the tools available to us, including sanctions. As updates are made, I will of course update noble Lords in that respect.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, dual nationality is a real problem and needs to be understood by all people affected in such matters. Russia is one, Iran and China are others, and there are all the rest. On the point before us specifically, is it the case that the gentleman’s mother’s nationality is Canadian? What consular activity or support, if the Minister is able to give any insight, is being offered to him at this difficult time?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, without going into specifics, I assure the noble Lord that of course we are providing full support. I know that colleagues have engaged directly with Mr Kara-Murza’s family as well. We will continue to ask for consular access. Under the Vienna Convention, it is our view that it is very clear that this should be granted. Mr Kara- Murza spent a substantial amount of time in the United Kingdom: indeed, his own courage and determination led him to return to Russia, notwithstanding that he knew full well some of the challenges and restrictions that he would face, including the possibility of detention.

Russia has again taken steps to silence any critic of the administration. As we know, Mr Kara-Murza specifically was very critical of Russia’s role in its invasion of Ukraine. I assure the noble Lord and reassure the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that we are not just demanding consular access from the ambassador: in our interactions we have also been very clear about the length of the detention and Russia’s continuing actions on suppressing the rights of all Russian citizens, not just dual nationals.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given the horrendous circumstances of Mr Kara-Murza, highlighting the vulnerability of anyone in Russia who dares to speak out against President Putin’s regime, can the Minister assure me that anyone similarly at risk of such repression would be offered an extremely sympathetic hearing and refuge in the UK, should they be in a position to seek it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware, as I have said this before from the Dispatch Box, that there are many people around the world, regrettably and challengingly in Russia at the moment as well as other parts of the world, who seek refuge in the United Kingdom to escape all kinds of persecution, including political persecution. The United Kingdom deals very sympathetically with cases presented to it. We consider each application very carefully on an individual basis.

Council of Europe: Reykjavik Summit

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what proposals they will be putting to the Fourth Summit of Heads of State and Government of the Council of Europe in Reykjavik on 16-17 May.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom attaches great importance to the Council of Europe summit in Reykjavik. We see the event as an important opportunity for member states to renew their commitment to human rights, democracy and the rule of law across the continent. We will play a full part in the proceedings, including ensuring strong support for Ukraine, a united response to Russia’s aggression, strengthening multilateralism in Europe and ensuring reform and efficiencies in the institution.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am really grateful for the positive response from the Minister, which we always get from him in relation to the Council of Europe, because he recognises that it is now the one organisation in which we can co-operate with the countries of the European Union and other European countries on human rights, democracy and the rule of law, as he said. Will he pass a message back to the Home Secretary? By constantly speculating on withdrawal from the European Convention on Human Rights, which is the cornerstone of the Council of Europe, she is giving us a bad reputation throughout the world.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has been historically a supporter of the Council of Europe—indeed, we can go back to the times of the great Winston Churchill in our support for it and, indeed, as architects of it and of the fundamental principles of standing up for the human rights of all. The United Kingdom is and will remain a key part of the Council of Europe. On the noble Lord’s question, I can do no better than to quote my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who said during a parliamentary debate on this very issue:

“The UK is and will remain a member of the ECHR”.—[Official Report, 27/2/23; col. 594.]

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, in light of the human rights abuses in Ukraine, it is absolutely right that the summit will put the strengthening of the European Court of Human Rights at the centre of its agenda. Is it not jarring, therefore, that the UK Government are planning, in Clause 51 of their Illegal Migration Bill, powers to set aside interim measures of the European Court of Human Rights on safety and security? Why is the UK’s response to calls to strengthen the court legislation to ignore it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure there will be an opportunity, when the Bill passes through the other place and comes to the House of Lords, to debate it extensively. It is important that we stand up for our obligations, including those we have made to conventions we signed up to, and for the role that the ECHR has played historically and continues to play. The United Kingdom agrees that, when we look at certain issues, including the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the ECHR and indeed the Council of Europe are playing a very important role.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will follow on from that question on interim measures. The Minister will be aware that last summer the European Court of Human Rights, in an interim measure, spared two British citizens from being executed by Russia. In the case of Ukraine versus Russia, President Zelensky presently holds an interim measure against Russia to constrain the use of military force against civilians. Given our history of seeking and supporting interim measures, and their importance for people facing imminent risk of irreparable harm, does the Minister agree that the Council of Europe in Reykjavik would be an appropriate forum for the Government to reaffirm their commitment to legally binding interim measures which a number of our citizens hold?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has mentioned a number of cases of interim measures, and of course I recognise the important role that the Council of Europe has played. On our priorities for the summit, which he also alluded to, we will ensure the strengthening of the Council of Europe. It will see representation at high levels of government, but reiterate our important role—he mentioned our support for Ukraine in Russia’s illegal war.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I have the enormous privilege of being a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. I gather, through what one might call unusual channels, that our Prime Minister will not be able to go to the Heads of State meeting in Reykjavik. My understanding is that the Deputy Prime Minister will go in his stead. Can the Minister reassure me that his department has a plan B in place in case the findings of Mr Adam Tolley’s inquiry into the Deputy Prime Minister mean that he is unable to go to Reykjavik?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to speculate in any shape or form. The United Kingdom attaches great importance to this summit and at the moment the invitation is being considered by the Prime Minister’s office.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, it is absolutely right that Russia is excluded from the Council of Europe, but that exclusion does have consequences, and my noble friend alluded to them. Of course, Russian citizens will no longer be able to take cases to the European Court of Human Rights. Therefore, while rightly stopping the Government of Russia, what are the Government doing to defend the people of Russia and their human rights? How will we hold the Russian Government to account at the summit for their breaches of human rights and their crimes, including war crimes?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked quite a wide-ranging question. We will work with all the other member states in the Council of Europe to ensure that Russia abides by all the conventions, even beyond the obligations that it has in its former membership of the Council of Europe—that it abides by those other international protocols that it has signed up to. Of course, he is right about the avenue for Russian citizens, and later this week we will discuss yet another case of the appalling abuse by Russia of its own citizens and opposition figures. I remind the noble Lord, as he will be aware, that we are working closely with other institutions, including the ICC, to ensure that those very much at the heart of decision-making, no less than Mr Putin himself, are held accountable for the abuse of their position and their continued violations against the Ukrainian people.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is it not very important at the Council of Europe that we stress the cross-party, all-party support for that institution? In that context, as a general election moves ever closer, should we all not be very careful about indulging in snide, personal attacks? Remember Dean Swift:

“He lash’d the Vice but spar’d the Name.”


Some of the adverts currently appearing completely ignore that dictum.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend but I add, as someone who served —it seems a long time ago—as a member of the team assembled from across this House and the other place at the Council of Europe, that I have always found that every member, irrespective of party affiliation, has acquit themselves in the finest traditions of our democracy. On a lighter note, when it comes to diplomacy, I always say that one thing many notice on the international stage is that we travel well irrespective of our party affiliations.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware of the determination of a Russian court just yesterday in relation to Vladimir Kara-Murza, who has been put into a penal colony in Siberia for 25 years. We have heard, rightly, noble Lords raising the issues of Russian citizens, but this man is a dual passport holder—he is also a British citizen—and I wonder what the Minister has to tell the House about his current position.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. In one of my earlier responses, I alluded to an Urgent Question which will be repeated in your Lordships’ House later this week, but she is right to raise the issue. We summoned the Russian ambassador yesterday, and our own ambassador attended the court proceedings and issued a joint statement with a number of key partners. We want to ensure that we have access. Vladimir Kara-Murza is, as my noble friend says, a dual citizen. Equally, we want Russia to abide by the conventions it signed up to, including the Vienna conventions and their accords that allow for consular access.

[Lord Tomlinson (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the whole House is grateful to the noble Lord for the very clear message that he gave as his personal commitment when he quoted the Prime Minister’s words from the other place concerning the European Convention on Human Rights. However, that message is not getting through to member states, other than this country perhaps, in the Council of Europe. Particularly as the Prime Minister is not, it appears, going to attend the Reykjavik summit next month, can we make sure that whoever leads the British delegation will give that clear commitment that the noble Lord has given, so that the lingering doubts among many states in the Council of Europe concerning our commitment to the European convention are eliminated and no longer persist?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord of the best of British diplomacy in that respect.

Azerbaijan: Khojaly Massacre

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Flight]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they made, if any, of the impact of the Khojaly massacre in 1992 in respect of the recent hostilities between Armenia and Azerbaijan; and what steps they took, if any, to send condolences to the people of Azerbaijan on the anniversary of the massacre on 26 February.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the events of 1992 were a tragic episode in the history of the Azerbaijani people and were rightly condemned by the Government of the day. Our ambassador to Azerbaijan laid a wreath at the memorial in Baku on 26 February as a mark of our condolences on the loss of life. We have made no formal assessment of the Khojaly massacre in the context of recent hostilities.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, the objective of this Question is to encourage the UK Government to go beyond issuing a formal message of condolences and to take appropriate action to honour the victims of this sad and tragic event.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend caught me somewhat unawares by the succinctness of his question. Of course we recognise the events of the tragic episode that took place in Azerbaijan, as I said. I stress that there is no violent solution to the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia. We urge both sides to engage internationally. We support the engagement that takes place between those countries and the organisations that facilitate it, such as the OSCE.

[Baroness Cox (CB)]

My Lords, I was present in Nagorno-Karabakh many times during the war in the 1990s and can testify to the reality of events at Khojaly, a town used by the Azeris to fire so many missiles on the capital, Stepanakert, that it would have been annihilated if the Armenians had not taken control of Khojaly. They gave advance notice of their attack and requested that the Azeris allow civilians to evacuate. When the attack began, they saw Armenian civilians still present. They stopped fighting and asked the Azeris to allow safe passage, but Azeris mingled with Armenians and both sides suffered deaths. The Armenians gave the Azeris permission to collect their dead, but the Azeris mutilated captured Armenian prisoners.

Is the Minister aware of the Azeri bias in much of the media coverage of the Karabakh war, not only on Khojaly but on other events, such as the massacre by Azerbaijan at the nearby village of Maraga? I visited Maraga many times. I went first when the homes were still burning. The charred remains of corpses and the vertebrae of beheaded Armenians were still on the ground. Does the Minister agree that rewriting history has serious implications for future developments in the countries involved?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we all recognise the importance of history. What is important in this conflict now is to look at what the future holds. It is important for both countries, and the region, for both sides to sit down. We are supportive of negotiations and further discussions. My colleague, the Minister for Europe, has been engaging extensively on this. He has visited Baku and is hoping to travel to Yerevan in the coming few weeks. I met the Foreign Minister of Armenia in December at the UN. I assure the noble Baroness that, from both perspectives—those who have a view supportive of Azerbaijan and those supportive of Armenia—solutions can ultimately be found only by direct negotiations, but there is a role for facilitation by organisations such as the UN and, as I said, the OSCE.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that answer. I wonder if I can tempt him to comment on the role of Russia in the current situation. Do the wider problems with Russia make it more or less likely that a solution might be found in Azerbaijan and Armenia?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the right reverent Prelate raises the important issue of Russia’s role. To be quite clear, following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the UK has suspended all direct engagement with the Russian authorities, except on a very limited number of issues including the Ukraine crisis. We have no plan to engage directly, but we welcome the interventions of other key partners. I think Russia’s war on Ukraine has hindered the progress that was being made. Whether in the context of Russia’s illegal war on Ukraine or the ongoing conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, dialogue, discourse and ultimately a peaceful negotiation are desirable outcomes. But Russia’s intervention on the sovereign land of another country cannot be ignored. In that context, as I am sure the right reverend Prelate agrees, Russia can end that conflict now by withdrawing.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, given that the debate has turned to Russia, today Vladimir Kara-Murza is being put on trial in Moscow. He is a very committed voice for democracy and freedom. He has been imprisoned, allegedly for treason, because he has said it is a war. He is a British citizen as well as a Russian. Are the British Government doing anything about his case?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the short answer is that yes, we are. We are appalled by the sentence announced today. He has bravely stood up for the rights of so many. This is another example of what Russia does to its own. In this case, there is a read-across for us as the United Kingdom. We see the action taken by Russia today and have seen what is happening with the further distressing stories about the detention of Mr Navalny and others. That, again, shows that it is not just about the war on Ukraine. Russia supresses its own; it is supressing the rights and freedoms of journalists, lawyers and many communities across Russia. If Russia wants to be a valid, recognised member of the international community, the first test will be how it treats its own citizens.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, prior to the violence in 2020, I hosted dialogue with young people in the region and, most recently, was concerned with the tension. The Minister is absolutely right that the reliability and dependability of the Russian peacekeeping force currently present is now under question. The EU has had one successful peacekeeping operation there, and its negotiations are carrying on. The Minister referred to the others who are engaged in negotiations—hopefully peace negotiations. Is the UK supporting the EU’s work, and are we offering technical assistance for its work in the negotiations?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we support all noble attempts at negotiation and bringing about an end to all conflicts. The situation in Nagorno-Karabakh has gone on far too long. The primary engagement through European bodies is through the OSCE, where many members of the European Union are present. We work closely with our partners in that context.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, on visiting Nagorno-Karabakh, I was struck that there is one land corridor that links it to Armenia, the Lachin corridor, which has been blockaded since last December. Has the Minister had a chance to read the report of the five United Nations special rapporteurs, which was issued earlier this month, calling for urgent action to be taken for the reopening of that corridor so that food, fuel, medicine and basic necessities can reach the 120,000 people now blockaded inside Nagorno-Karabakh?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to raise the Lachin corridor. He will be aware that, since its blockading, the United Kingdom has repeatedly called for open access, particularly for humanitarian support. Recently, there have been reports of people who have left the area not being able to access it and return home. Through representations and engagement through the OSCE and the United Nations—including at the UNSC—we continue to work with key partners to ensure that that important corridor is opened, particularly for humanitarian support.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, we must remember that Baku is one of the pivotal points of oil and gas transmission through central Asia. While oil and gas may be on the way out between now and 2050, in the meantime it is greatly in our interest to see that there are close relations with Baku and Azerbaijan in handling all these difficult issues. Can we be assured that we are very close to the Azerbaijan Government in analysing aspects of oil and gas? Cheaper oil and gas now could mean a cheaper cost of living, which we all want—it is greatly in our interest.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure my noble friend that we engage on a wide range of issues with the Azerbaijani Government. As I indicated earlier, this has included a recent visit by my colleague, the Minister for Europe, to Baku, where a wide range of issues were discussed, including the conflict that is the subject of this Question and the importance of our bilateral relationship with Azerbaijan.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, in accordance with international law, do the Government accept that Karabakh is an integral part of Azerbaijan?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s position on that is clear: yes, we do.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, it was right that the Minister referred to the case of Navalny. Is he aware that one of the more serious allegations is that he is being denied necessary medical treatment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we are aware of the various challenges faced by many people detained in Russia against their will. Mr Navalny’s case is particularly acute. He voluntarily returned to Russia to represent his own people, and Russia should recognise that opposition. We stand in this Chamber where we, as a Government, are rightly challenged and held accountable for our actions. If you are a democracy and want a place in the world, the challenge of opposition is part and parcel of your Government’s responsibility.

West Papua: UN Access

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in obtaining access to West Papua for the United Nations’ High Commissioner for Human Rights.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom welcomes recent engagement between Indonesia and the UN, as part of Indonesia’s universal periodic review in November 2022. We continue to support a visit by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights to the region of Papua. We recognise that a significant amount of time has passed since the visit was first proposed, but we hope that both parties can come together to agree dates very soon.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. He mentioned the universal periodic review of Indonesia. He will know that, at that review, a number of major countries, including the United States, Australia and Canada, called for an intervention from the UN in Indonesia and an immediate visit by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. It is not at all clear that the United Kingdom was among those supporting that call. Perhaps the Minister will be able to enlighten us.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I hope the Answer I have given in the House today reassures the noble and right reverend Lord that we support an early visit. I am cognisant that this visit was first proposed under High Commissioner Zeid, who has since been succeeded by High Commissioner Bachelet and subsequently by High Commissioner Türk. The visit has been pending for a long time, and it is important that it takes place at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Is it not clear that this small country is suffering grievously under a colonial oppressor, Indonesia, which is busily exploiting the country’s rich mineral resources and extensive forests in its own interests? Will the Government do all in their power, in conjunction with Commonwealth partners in the region, to get the UN to act and to act decisively?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, what is important is that we highlight the human rights issues as they arise, as we do with key partners. Ultimately, I agree with my noble friend that we need the UN, and the next step is very much for the high commissioner to undertake this important visit.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is over a year since the UN special rapporteur’s allegations of extrajudicial killings, enforced disappearances, and the forced displacement of thousands of indigenous Papuans. Have the Minister, his ministerial colleagues or our ambassador in Jakarta made representations to their Indonesian counterparts about the contents of the report?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we engage with them quite regularly. We recently had a visit from our team on the ground in Papua. We use our bilateral engagement, which is very strong with the Indonesian Government, to raise issues, including the situation in Papua and a broader range of human rights issues.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, could the Minister go a little further to explain why the UK does not seem to have been part of that group of eight countries that pressed for an early visit by the High Commissioner for Human Rights? It is surely reasonable to ask a democratic country such as Indonesia to admit the high commissioner to look into abuses of human rights. That is what it should do, and I hope that we will press that strongly.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, that is exactly what we are doing. As I indicated in one of my earlier responses, the visit was first proposed in 2018; I remember having a conversation about it with the then High Commissioner for Human Rights. It is important that such a visit goes ahead, and I assure the noble Lord of our full support for it.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, human rights concerns were rightly highlighted by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office’s human rights report published last autumn for 2021. It made a specific point of highlighting the UK Government’s policy of seeking equitable and fair development within Papua and West Papua. However, in the Government’s strategic partnership road map for Indonesia published last year, there is reference only to terrorism in Papua and no reference to any equitable development or to human rights. What is the point of the Foreign Office highlighting human rights concerns if it does nothing about them in its negotiations with the country in question?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord understates the importance of the human rights report, which I am very proud that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office continues to produce. It is focused not just on those countries with the worst records when it comes to human rights. Importantly, a condition in that report is where we can bring influence. As I said earlier, Indonesia is an important bilateral and regional partner with which we engage widely on a range of issues of peace, conflict and stability in and across the region; it is a key partner. In all our meetings, we raise human rights in the broad range of issues, and we are seeing some progress in Indonesia, including on freedom of religion or belief.

Council of Europe: Death Penalty

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they remain (1) opposed to the use of the death penalty, and (2) committed to the United Kingdom’s membership of the Council of Europe.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a long-standing policy of the UK Government to oppose the death penalty in all circumstances as a matter of principle, and we have no plans to reintroduce it. The United Kingdom is committed to its membership of the Council of Europe, which remains an important forum for our human rights and foreign policy agenda.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

I am grateful, as always, to the Minister for his Answer. Noble Lords will appreciate that I tabled this Question some weeks ago in direct response to comments by the Prime Minister’s appointee as deputy chair of the Conservative Party about the death penalty, but also because of consistent comments on and off the record by Justice and Home Affairs Secretaries at the other end of the Corridor. By contrast, the Minister is a strenuous advocate for rights, freedoms and the international rule of law. Is this contradiction at the heart of government sustainable, let alone helpful?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, what I can say to the noble Baroness is that when I speak from this Dispatch Box, I speak for the Government and I emphasise and stress what the Government’s policy is, and that will continue to be the case.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, the European Convention on Human Rights is a core part of the Council of Europe—indeed, some would say the raison d’etre—yet there are persistent voices in the Conservative Party calling to leave the convention, fearing some blockage in the policy relating to boat people. Do the Government agree that if we were to leave, by design or inadvertence, that would in effect mean leaving the Council of Europe?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, during the Second World War and, indeed, just after it, Sir Winston Churchill was one of the key architects of the Council of Europe and that remains the case. I can do no better than to quote the current chief executive of the Government, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who said on 27 February that “the United Kingdom is a member of the European Convention on Human Rights and will remain a member of the ECHR”.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, having a policy is one thing, but there is also a requirement to be a strong advocate. As the noble Lord knows, I questioned him last week about the situation in Saudi Arabia, a country that last year executed a huge number of people—81 in one day. Can he reassure me that on future occasions when someone’s life is under threat, not only he but the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister will stand up for this policy and urge Saudi Arabia not to execute people?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I assured the noble Lord last week when we discussed the tragic execution of Mr al-Kheir, we remain absolutely vigilant in respect of imminent executions such as those that took place. This was a tragic event and totally against our policy. I assure the noble Lord of my good offices and indeed others across government in making the case that, as I said in answering the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the United Kingdom has opposed, still opposes and will continue to oppose the death penalty in all respects.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I accept the good faith of the Minister, and I try to avoid on these occasions autobiography in your Lordships’ House, but as Crown counsel successfully and defence counsel unsuccessfully, I have participated in cases where the accused would have hanged but for the abolition of the death penalty. Nothing in that experience ever persuaded me that capital punishment should be restored, which makes it all the more astonishing that his party should have appointed someone to a senior position who believes that it should.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I of course equally respect the noble Lord, and I listened very carefully to his question. I have quoted the Prime Minister, and let me assure the noble Lord that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has also articulated her view that the current sentencing is sufficient to deal with crimes of all different natures, including the most severe. She herself has voiced her opposition to the introduction of capital punishment.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, in view of the comments to which the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has drawn attention, does the Minister agree that there is something deeply ironic about a society condemning the taking of a person’s life, and in order to demonstrate exactly how strongly it does so, doing exactly that through a judicial killing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not quite clear as to the premise of the right reverend Prelate’s question. However, I do agree with him that when we articulate policies from the Dispatch Box in your Lordships’ House or the other place, we should articulate what those views are and what the law is. Let me say once again for clarity that the Government have no plans to introduce capital punishment domestically, and we will continue to oppose the death penalty internationally.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned his responses as of last Thursday, when we discussed the killing of Hussein Abo al-Kheir. We know that Saudi Arabia resumed the death penalty in November 2022 and that it murdered 11 people in March alone through those means. We also know that it has restituted its law whereby you can be executed for drug smuggling and narcotics offences—which, in some terms, are not as serious as you might expect, even in a country like Saudi Arabia. How many times has he called in the Saudi ambassador since the death penalty was reinstated in November?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, if the noble Baroness was present last week, she will know that I recounted I think at least eight or nine occasions on which I have been in touch and had direct discussions with His Excellency the ambassador for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Indeed, on the evening before the sad execution of Mr al-Kheir, I was in touch with the Human Rights Commission of, the Foreign Minister of, and, indeed, the ambassador of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, given that the rights adumbrated in the ECHR are anticipated—predated, sometimes, by centuries—by the laws of this country, what does my noble friend the Minister fear would be the right we would lose if we were to abrogate the convention?

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

The death penalty?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I think we have heard one of the points from the other side of the House. It is extremely important that the United Kingdom is a guardian of the rule of law internationally. We also make the case very strongly that as we ourselves have evolved, we hope that other countries have evolved. In 1965, I believe, we abolished the death penalty. We worked constructively with other countries towards achieving that aim. Of course, the conventions that we set up and create need to adapt and evolve, but the convention to stand against capital punishment and the death penalty is, I believe, the right one, and long may it continue.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare, as a possible conflict of interest, that I am a member of the Council of Europe and this Parliament’s delegation to Strasbourg. Last week, I was in Paris for a meeting of the migration committee. I am delighted to hear the noble Lord’s reassurance of a total commitment, but it does not feel like that from the point of view of the other parliamentarians I meet. Their comments about last year’s Nationality and Borders Act and our current Illegal Migration Bill suggest huge scepticism from them and the UNHCR about the commitment of this Parliament to the conventions of the Council of Europe. Can the Minister give me a little ammunition, since there are no Conservative Members on the migration committee? I am the only defender of British policy—can your Lordships believe that? Is there any way in which he can help us to rebut, qualify or put in a different perspective the current thinking, which is very radical, of the Council of Europe towards us?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Of course, I would be delighted to. First and foremost, in terms of an immediate response, I have already quoted my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. I would be happy, as I always am, to meet with the Council of Europe and its members in advance of their next meeting to ensure that they are fully equipped with the lines they need about our defence of the ECHR and our membership of the Council of Europe.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom is a member of the UN Human Rights Council. Does the Minister anticipate bringing these matters before the council? Why, in his view, do countries continue with the death penalty, and does it in any way act as a deterrent against the very acts these people are being murdered for in any case?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Viscount that we consistently bring up the issue of the death penalty. Indeed, as he may be aware, in the universal periodic review that takes place in respect of each country, including the United Kingdom, we look very carefully at what the issues are and which ones we should raise, and we hold countries accountable. Many countries with perhaps quite challenging human rights records aspire to be members of the Human Rights Council. When you are there, you need to stand up for its values and standards.

Saudi Arabia: Execution of Hussein Abo al-Kheir

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given by my honourable friend the Minister for Europe to an Urgent Question in another place on the execution of Hussein Abo al-Kheir. The Statement is as follows:

“Saudi Arabia remains a Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office human rights priority country, in part because of the continued use of the death penalty. It is long-standing UK policy to oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, in all countries, as a matter of principle. The Saudi Government are well aware of the UK’s opposition to the use of the death penalty. The UK Government have consistently raised the issue of the death penalty, including the case of Jordanian national Mr Hussein Abo al-Kheir, with the Saudi authorities. The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa, and for human rights, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, has actively raised concerns about the death penalty and the specific case of Mr al-Kheir with the Saudi authorities on multiple occasions, including with the president of the Saudi Human Rights Commission in December 2022 and when he visited the kingdom in February 2023. Lord Ahmad also raised the case with the Saudi ambassador to the UK, including in November 2022 and in January of this year.

On learning about the imminency of the execution, which took place on Saturday 11 March, Lord Ahmad again spoke to the president of the Saudi HRC, the Saudi vice-Foreign Minister and the Saudi ambassador. Saudi Arabia is committed to an ambitious programme of economic and social reform, through ‘Vision 2030’ ... However, the human rights situation is likely to remain a key issue in our engagement for the foreseeable future. We will continue to discuss human rights and the death penalty, including individual cases of concern, with the Saudi authorities.”

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the response to the Urgent Question, and I am fully aware of all the efforts he has personally made. It is a shocking case. This is a 57 year-old father of eight who did not face a fair trial and who was tortured in jail, so the evidence goes. My right honourable friend Stephen Timms asked in the other place this morning whether the Foreign Secretary had raised this case with the Saudi authorities. The response from Leo Docherty, as we have heard, was a generalised one, saying that the Saudis know our position on the death penalty and that our position is clear. He also confused the issue slightly by saying that the moratorium on the death penalty for drugs cases was about people who were users and not particularly related to this case; he corrected himself later on.

I ask the Minister the specific question that my right honourable friend Stephen Timms asked: did the Foreign Secretary make specific representations to halt the execution and if not, why not? We know that high-level interventions can have an impact. In 2015, when David Cameron and the then Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond publicly called on the Saudi authorities to prevent the execution of Ali al-Nimr, that execution was halted. I respect what the noble Lord has been trying to do as an individual Minister, but I hope he can answer my specific question.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks and note the involvement of his honourable friend the Member of Parliament for Enfield, Southgate, who got in touch with me on Saturday evening. I assured him that I was already engaging in this issue.

The noble Lord rightly raises the importance of human rights, which he knows I prioritise in all my engagements. Human rights should be central to our diplomacy and our foreign policy, and in this regard I am sure I speak for my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, whom I have known over a number of years. When he was Minister for Middle East and North Africa, he consistently raised human rights issues directly with various authorities in the region, including the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Although I am the primary Minister engaging in this issue, in various recent exchanges with the Foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia he has not only discussed a broad range of bilateral issues but has emphasised the importance of human rights as a central plank of our ongoing relationship with the Kingdom.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I declare that I am vice-chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Abolition of the Death Penalty. Saudi Arabia is becoming increasingly isolated as other countries abolish capital punishment for drugs offences. This is a welcome move globally but draws attention to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I too recognise the involvement of the Minister; however, I note the concerns of Conservative MPs who claimed that more could have been done.

My questions relate to the consequences of our relationship with the Kingdom. The Trade Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, recently confirmed to me that human rights were no longer to be an integral part of discussions on free trade agreements. Are there any human rights activities which would bring into question opening access to UK markets, or is human rights simply a noble aim when it comes to our investment negotiations with Saudi Arabia? Secondly, we know that the Government have had intensive discussions with authorities in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to seek infill for development and humanitarian assistance when there are UK cuts. Can the Minister confirm that we have not asked Saudi Arabia to infill cuts to human rights programmes, especially those relating to the use of torture, human rights and legal reform, and that UK cuts will not be infilled by Saudi Arabian Government support?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that in all agreements, particularly the GCC FTA currently being negotiated, and when I raise trade issues and the bilateral relationship across the Gulf, human rights are central to my thinking. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in the most recent conversation my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary had with the Saudi Foreign Minister, he took the opportunity to say that human rights remain a foundation stone of British foreign policy.

The noble Lord is right to say that we are strengthening our work on development with key partners across the Gulf. Indeed, the Saudi Arabian delegation is currently at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, and I will be leading the plenary and closing sessions with the primary principle of those discussions. From my perspective and understanding of human rights and the rule of law, we are not asking any country to fill gaps; it is about development infrastructure and support. For example, when I visited the Kingdom recently, I saw directly the work that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is doing through its development arm in the government-held areas in Yemen. That includes building infrastructure such as schools and hospitals, so they are making a valuable contribution to development. If there are more specifics regarding the issues the noble Lord raised, I will review them and if necessary write to him.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, the whole House acknowledges the contribution the Minister makes in this important area, but there are real concerns as to whether His Majesty’s Government are as intent on addressing these issues. Saudi is part of the Arab Charter on Human Rights 2004, but the problem is enforcement. Even the statute brought in 2014 does not enable enforcement. What representations are His Majesty’s Government making to the wider Arab world to work with colleagues to nudge Saudi in a new direction and stop this extraordinary range of executions, which do not seem to be abating at all?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the right reverend Prelate, and I assure him that I am raising these issues in a very wide context. When, under Islamic jurisprudence, the death penalty was established, it was done with so many caveats, thresholds and hurdles that needed to be overcome that implementation was made extremely remote, because of all the other validations that needed to be put in place. I would not say that we need to nudge the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia—countries in the Islamic world should themselves be harnessing the true principles of this—but I will ensure that this remains part of our diplomatic focus as we continue to express our opposition to the death penalty across the world.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, although I recognise the undoubted role that the Minister plays and his undoubted concern, is not the killing of Hussein Abo al-Kheir just part of a shocking pattern that we have seen in Saudi Arabia? Can the Minister confirm that, between 2010 and 2021, at least 1,243 people were executed in Saudi Arabia; that, in 2022, at least 147 people were executed in one of the bloodiest years on record there; and that, on 12 March last year, 81 people were killed in a single day, some of them charged with things such as deviant beliefs? The executions are usually carried out by beheading with a sword and hanging is often performed in public, with decisions taken behind closed doors and court documents forbidden from being published. It even affects minors: a child of 14 was executed. Is the Minister taking this matter up with the United Nations Human Rights Council and talking to Islamic scholars about challenging things that are done under religious statutes?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in the interests of time, let me assure the noble Lord that we discuss the death penalty very much in multilateral fora, including the Human Rights Council. As I alluded to the right reverend Prelate, we must also contextualise our approach and make it clear that the extreme nature of this is against our principles—indeed, if they are to exercise the death penalty, we must define what the nature of it should be.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, following the right reverend Prelate’s intervention, can the Minister tell the House what conversations he is having with our allies—whether in the Commonwealth, in Europe or elsewhere—about the particularly barbarous practice of imprisoning children as young as 14, keeping them in prison until they are 18 then executing them? Surely this is something that the international community needs to take very seriously. Words will not be enough; action needs to be taken on Saudi Arabia in this respect.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On the specific issue of Saudi Arabia and child detention, I believe that there is only one live case of someone facing such circumstances at the moment. I assure the noble Baroness that I have made strong representations. Certain adjudications were made in particular cases that were then reviewed and overturned. I assure noble Lords that we watch this issue very carefully; indeed, when such occasions arise, we make direct representations.

As I, the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, have said, there is a real need for countries in the Islamic world, including those in the OIC, to recognise that how they behave or act, particularly when it comes to certain issues and penalties, is not reflective of the notion, principles and intent of that structure of jurisprudence when it was created. It is a sad fact, though, that the death penalty applies not only in that part of the world but quite widely; we will continue to campaign against that. I think I speak for everyone in this House, irrespective of who stands at this Dispatch Box and when, when I say that our principled stand against the death penalty is the right one and that we should continue to advocate across the piece.

Iran: Toxic Chemical Agents

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of reports that toxic chemical agents have been used against schoolgirls by the authorities in Iran.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the deeply sinister reports of toxic agents being used against schoolgirls in Iran have shocked the world. While we cannot yet draw conclusions on who is responsible, one thing is clear: the Iranian authorities must carry out a fair, transparent and rigorous investigation. It is essential that girls are able to fully exercise their right to education without fear. The United Kingdom considers this a very serious matter and will continue to follow developments very closely.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which he expressed that reply. Can he share with the House his assessment of reports that these wicked attacks are a retaliation following the protests led by women and girls that have convulsed Iran since the death, while in the custody of Iran’s morality police, of 22 year-old Mahsa Amini; and his assessment of the threat on a state-run website that the poisoning would spread if girls’ schools are not closed down? Is it plausible that such systematic and widespread attacks have taken place without the knowledge of the state intelligence agencies and the IRGC? Will the Minister be taking his public demand that there should be an urgent and transparent investigation to the United Nations Human Rights Council, so that those responsible for what he has said are sinister, wicked attacks are brought to justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord and he will be aware that I also called this out on 3 March. I have literally just flown in from the United Nations this morning, where Iran and the whole issue of girls and their education, and women’s empowerment, was discussed in a very global sense at the Commission on the Status of Women. I can assure him that, in my meetings with key bilateral partners as well as within the wider context of the UN, these matters have been raised. The noble Lord raises the issue of the Human Rights Council and we are of course following what further steps we can take with key partners there. As to who is responsible, there is a lot of speculation out there but it is clear that, since November, 800 to 900 girls have been impacted. This is very sinister and it is down to the Iranian authorities to investigate it properly, in the interests of their own citizens.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

My Lords, what is happening in Iran to many girls and women is of course sinister and shocking. But looking at education in Iran further down the line, schools for girls are being closed. There is separate education for boys and girls, with girls being totally marginalised and taught only arts and humanities. Will my noble friend the Minister ensure that these longer-term issues, as well as the shocking violence taking place against girls and women, are addressed? These other issues should also be addressed so that we do not have another generation of women who are deeply affected by a lack of education in Iran.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I totally agree with my noble friend; there is nothing to justify that kind of suppression of girls’ education anywhere in the world, be it in Iran or Afghanistan, which we have talked about. I can share with her that, having spoken specifically with the OIC and the Islamic countries, there is a plan for a UN-sponsored conference within the region immediately after Ramadan. It is likely to be in Kuwait and will focus on the very issue of women and girls’ rights within the context of Islam, so that Islam does not suppress them but promotes them.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I too just returned from the UN at the beginning of last week. One issue being raised at the UN now, in its Human Rights Council, is not the genocide convention, although that is being raised a lot too, but the apartheid convention and whether its definitions of race should be expanded to include gender. All the same components of not allowing women to have access to civil society, participation in politics or education can certainly be seen in Afghanistan, and should be called out for happening there because apartheid is a crime—a crime against humanity. The inclusion of gender in that definition is about addressing the serious ways in which women’s non-participation is increasing in such places. We now see that in Iran too. Is the Minister raising the issue of expanding apartheid to include the question of gender?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, what I can say to the noble Baroness on the issue of gender is that, within the context of UN discussions at the moment, there is a very regressive prevailing attitude among certain countries on reopening things which have already been determined, including definitions of gender. This is now causing great concern. We often talk about like-minded countries but there are un-like-minded like-minded countries, if I can phrase it that way, leading the charge so we must remain firm on this. I assure the noble Baroness of my good offices, and those of the FCDO and all colleagues, in ensuring that we keep girls’ and women’s rights very much at the forefront of our international policy.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, the production and utilisation of chemical warfare in civil and international conflicts is explicitly prohibited under the Chemical Weapons Convention, to which Iran is a signatory and a participating member. Will His Majesty’s Government commit to using this existing framework to advocate for the creation of a fact-finding mission by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate raises a very important point: the proliferation of nuclear weapons and the enrichment of uranium towards having them is very much at the heart of our approach. He may know that, yesterday, the E3 made a statement directly on the visit of the IAEA’s DG, Mr Grossi, who was in Iran. What is really worrying at the moment is that the levels of enrichment which now prevail in Iran have, according to the latest reports in the region, reached about 83.7%. This is fast approaching the very level which would allow for nuclear weapons to be produced. We call again on Iran publicly, as we did yesterday, to desist from this practice because not doing so is creating a precarious situation—not just in the region but globally.

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords, in a debate in the Moses Room on 23 February, the Minister promised to take back the concerns of your Lordships’ House regarding the closure of the BBC Persian radio service. Given the importance of the BBC in reporting this appalling attack on schoolgirls, can he tell the House what response he received from the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor on ensuring that the decision to shut down BBC Persian is reversed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is correct. I asked for a specific update and I know that we are looking at the languages which the FCDO supports directly. Persian is not one of them but I have certainly taken back the very points raised in those debates and I hope to update my noble friend in the very near future.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the FCDO women’s strategy rightly highlights the persecution of women in Iran. Home Office figures for 2022 state that 1,218 vulnerable and persecuted women from Iran claimed asylum within the UK, of whom 232 are under 29 and are not eligible for the resettlement scheme. Under the Government’s Bill, they would now be voided and deported. Will the Minister give me and them the assurance that they will not be deported back to Iran? If they are not deported back to Iran, then where? Will he please explain to an Iranian woman who is seeking asylum within the UK what the safe and legal route is, since currently there is not one?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has spoken about the importance of safe and legal routes but I assure the noble Lord that the situation in Iran also prompts the importance of the United Kingdom particularly continuing to support those women and girls who seek refuge here. We have a long-standing tradition in this regard and I believe it is important that that continues.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister will not speculate but, just to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, there is increasing evidence of the state’s involvement in this, particularly by the IRGC. When are we going to hear from the Government about that organisation being proscribed?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we have imposed further sanctions on individuals within the IRGC and the organisation itself has been sanctioned. I have heard consistently across the House and from all Benches about the importance that is attached to proscription, but the noble Lord is quite correct; at this moment, I cannot speculate from the Dispatch Box about what may happen next.

British-Iranian Relations

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2023 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, as others have, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and recognise his continued advocacy on important issues of human rights; Iran is no exception. While I recognise the different points raised, both on a personal level and as a Minister, including in my capacity as Minister for Human Rights, I assure all noble Lords, irrespective of their contributions, that the principles they have articulated are very clear to me. While I cannot speak in detail, my advocacy in my capacity as a Minister in private, internal discussions that are taking place will perhaps resonate with noble Lords. I assure noble Lords of my best efforts in this regard.

The debate today has shown that we all recognise, as my noble friend Lord Shinkwin reminded us, that Iran’s reprehensible and abhorrent behaviour has escalated in recent months. It is very clear. Since the start of 2022, there have been 15 credible threats to kill or kidnap British or UK-based individuals by the Iranian regime. I recognise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the sanctioning perpetrated against both him and my noble friend Lord Polak. It is different now—in all my time as a Minister, I have never seen the need to brief all parliamentarians about the risks of the Iranian threat to us here in the United Kingdom. Most recently, we have seen the brazen behaviour of the regime in targeting journalists and their families in the UK.

The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, raised three important points, which I will come to. On the last of the three, also articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I can give that assurance. We work closely with the families of journalists. If noble Lords pick up particular instances or specific areas of concern, they should first be flagged to the police, but if they are also made known to us within government, while we cannot talk in detail, we will seek to ensure that appropriate protections and advice are provided.

Over the last six months, we have seen the regime’s brutal crackdown on protesters fighting for their basic freedoms; many noble Lords referred to this. At the same time, the regime continues to provide support to Russia in its appalling and brutal illegal war. I am sure I speak for all noble Lords in saying that I hope we shall see another vote at the UN General Assembly in favour of Ukraine later today. We have been lobbying hard to ensure that many countries across the region where Iran is based recognise the importance of Iran’s destabilising actions, not just in the region but right here in Europe. As noble Lords also articulated, Iran’s nuclear programme is now more advanced than ever; I will come to that in a moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, talked about Iranians in the UK; I recognise the points he made. We take a measured approach in engaging with both Iranian civil society and the diaspora in the UK. We are clear that the choice of Iran’s Government will ultimately be a matter for the Iranian people.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, was right to raise concerns about the Islamic Centre of England. On 14 November 2022, the Charity Commission approved and opened a statutory inquiry into the charity due to serious governance concerns that were raised. We are following that very closely. I note the points that the noble Baroness raised.

I will address the repeated threats to UK-based individuals. Over the past year we have seen credible threats, as I have alluded to. These include very real and specific threats towards UK-based journalists working for Iran International. While there has been much speculation, I assure noble Lords that we are working across government—and, as my right honourable friend said in the other place, together with Iran International —to ensure the protection of its activities here and the important work it does. This hostile behaviour is unacceptable and we will not tolerate attempts to threaten, intimidate or harm anyone in the UK. We will also not tolerate direct attacks on media freedom, which are threats to our fundamental values of freedom of expression and the media.

I turn to the BBC Persian service. As the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said, I could articulate what I said before about our support for the broader service. I shall be very clear to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Purvis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. Indeed, more or less all the contributions today have focused on BBC Persian, which is right—and I recognise the valuable service that it provides. I also recognise that we are in a very different phase to where we were when certain decisions were taken, even six to 12 months ago. Therefore, I shall of course take note of the immense strength of feeling, although I cannot give the assurances that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, seeks at this time. However, I shall take the issue back. As I said, I share many of the concerns that have been raised, and I recognise that, while radio is a small proportion of the service provided by BBC Persian, it is an important service, particularly in the current circumstances.

To turn to some specific actions, on 20 February, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary summoned the chargé, Iran’s most senior diplomat in London, to make a formal protest about Iran’s intolerable threats in the UK and to warn against any further activity. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, alluded to this. It shocks me. I have had various conversations with the chargé, and I put it very bluntly to him that they are actually killing their next generation. To put all other issues aside, given some of the people who have been executed, in terms of age and their contributions to Iran, it is shocking to see the regime acting in the way it does. What answer does Iran have? To share the answer, the answer is nothing. How can you respond to that?

I assure all noble Lords that we will continue to work closely with law enforcement to identify, deter and respond to emerging threats. As my right honourable friend the Security Minister made clear earlier this week, we will work closely with our allies in a unified response. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, also raised those issues. Of course, we are working hand in glove with our allies. This is a threat that is real not just for those in the region but across the world.

To turn to the protests in Iran, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, my noble friend Lord Polak, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and others, raised this issue. I have already alluded to how you deal with a regime that is so brutal to its own people—yet we shall stay focused and work with our allies in this respect. Holding the regime to account was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others. Five months have passed since the tragic incident and tragic death of Mahsa Amini, which we have discussed in your Lordships’ House, after she was arrested by Iran’s so-called morality police, which sparked protests in which we have seen brave Iranian people stand up for their basic rights and freedom.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked about specific records. Of course, it is difficult, but we have estimated that more than 500 people have now died and more than 18,000 people have been arrested, with 1,500 injured. Tragically, some of those numbers include about 65 children, if not more. Their demand is a simple one—for a better future—and we stand by that. It is clear that the Iranian people will no longer tolerate the violence and oppression of the regime, which is putting its own interests above theirs. The UK is working in international fora and directly on this issue. On Monday, we sanctioned eight individuals for horrific human rights violations, including the killing of children, and last month we sanctioned the Basij Resistance Force for its brutal repression on the streets of Iran.

My noble friend Lord Polak, rightly, along with the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheeler and Lady Deech, asked about the IRGC. The UK maintains sanctions on over 300 individuals and entities for their roles in Iran’s human rights violations. That includes the IRGC in its entirety. Of course, further sanctions have been imposed on key individuals. I am not going to speculate about our future response, but I have heard again very clearly where noble Lords stand on this. I can share with noble Lords that we are working very closely across government on the issues that noble Lords have raised, particularly in relation to proscription.

On the important issue of human rights more generally, I listened very carefully to the contribution of my noble friend Lord McColl. I reassure him that the sanctions that are imposed—indeed, any sanction imposed on the Iranian regime—have the appropriate carve-outs that allow us to provide that basic humanitarian and medical support that is needed. As we are increasing sanctions, they are being felt by the regime and having an impact. At the moment, it is not the right time to do anything that would seek to alleviate or recognise things beyond humanitarian or medical support.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, raised asylum seekers and pathways; I myself have been following this and asked that question. I assure noble Lords that I will follow this up directly with colleagues at the Home Office. Although it is a matter for them, I recognise that Iranians are eligible for the resettlement scheme, for example, which is a global scheme that started in March 2021. The need for safe routes for asylum is crucial; we need to remain focused on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Polak, talked about our human rights work. He will know about the action that we have taken at the CSW; I thank my noble friend in that respect. I assure all noble Lords that we will use the 52nd session of the UN Human Rights Council to make clear our views on Iran’s credibility on human rights issues.

In terms of Iran supporting Russia, the illegal war continues and Iran is profiteering from it. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, made an important point about BRICS. I assure him that we waste no opportunity in the context of our G7 representations to make clear to countries that perhaps do not share the same view the importance of acting together.

On wider destabilisation, I met the Foreign Minister of Yemen this week and was in the Gulf last week to align ourselves fully in strengthening our alliance against Iran’s destabilising influences. We will continue to work hand in glove.

The nuclear threat is ever increasing. I will write to noble Lords on where we have got to specifically but I assure them that we are watching this continuing threat. It is not in any way a comprehensive deal, as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said. The deal has been ready for signing for some months now but Iran has not moved. The challenge on the issue of nuclear enrichment is ever increasing; I particularly appreciate the valuable insights of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on this. We will move forward carefully with our partners because the ultimate objective must be that we do not allow Iran to gain nuclear weapons. I will write in further detail on that important point to say exactly where we are.

I welcome this debate. Like the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I recognise that we cannot cover a subject of such gravity in one hour. I spoke to officials earlier today and before this debate; we will look to see whether we can arrange an appropriate briefing at the FCDO, perhaps including colleagues from the Home Office, so that we can give noble Lords a more detailed insight into our current work and, of course, listen to their valuable advice.

Committee adjourned at 3.58 pm.

Raid of BBC Offices in India

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given by my honourable friend the Minister for the Americas and Caribbean to an Urgent Question in another place on the raids of BBC offices in India. The Answer is as follows:

“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful to the honourable Member for Strangford, Jim Shannon, for raising this Urgent Question. I appreciate his interest in recent news that India’s income tax department has conducted what is described as a ‘survey’ on the BBC’s offices in New Delhi and Mumbai. This began on 14 February and finished after three days, on 16 February.

As everyone in this House will be aware, the BBC is, quite rightly, operationally and editorially independent of His Majesty’s Government. While I cannot comment on the allegations made by India’s income tax department, the BBC has said that it is supporting its staff in its Indian offices and co-operating with the Indian authorities to resolve this matter as soon as possible.

Respect for the rule of law is an essential element of an effective democracy; so too are an independent media and freedom of speech. They make countries stronger and more resilient, and that is why we regularly engage with different parts of India’s media and support it, for example through the annual South Asia Journalism Fellowship programme and our flagship Chevening brand, which includes over 60 Indian alumni.

As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has previously said, the UK regards India as an important partner and His Majesty’s Government are investing heavily in strengthening our ties. Our broad and deep relationship, guided by our comprehensive strategic partnership and the 2030 roadmap for India-UK future relations allows us to discuss a wide range of issues in a constructive manner with the Government of India. We will continue to follow this matter closely.”

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer. India, of course, has a unique status as the world’s largest democracy but as the Minister said, in any democracy media freedoms are vital and freedom of expression must be protected. Earlier today, when the Question was asked in the House of Commons, my honourable friend Fabian Hamilton asked the Minister if the FCDO is directly engaging with the BBC World Service to offer support and protection following these events, particularly for the BBC staff in India. Obviously, linked to the previous Statement, it is really important that the Government offer that additional support. Given that the Minister in the House of Commons was unable to confirm that, I hope that the Minister can do so tonight.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that, yes, we are of course engaging with the BBC directly at FCDO. Indeed, as he will know, I have been involved in the important issue of the safety and protection of journalists for a number of years. As I said in the original Statement, the protection of journalists around the world, but also media freedom, are essential parts of any progressive, inclusive democracy.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the rule of law and freedom of speech are vital for a thriving democracy, as the noble Lord has said. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that support for the BBC needs to be clear. Will the Government now pause any discussions on services and data in the free trade talks until and unless urgent and satisfactory clarification is given regarding the potential use of laws in this area for political retribution? Does he also recognise—we have discussed this before—the impact that India’s law on foreign contributions has had on a number of NGOs, including Oxfam, and which is considered to have raised human rights issues?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is, of course, correct in her second question. I continue to engage directly with various organisations, and I meet with their representatives regularly. The strength of our relationship allows us to raise these important issues directly with India and to make progress on them. On the first issue the noble Baroness raised, it is important that we continue to engage directly with India. Our talks and discussions are multi-faceted. We are very conscious that the current investigation is ongoing, so I will not comment on any specifics. However, having engaged directly with the Indian authorities and met with the Indian High Commissioner only yesterday to discuss this matter, I understand that the BBC and the Indian authorities are working very closely and looking to resolve the issues as soon as possible.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I know the Minister is very alert to the particular problems journalists experience when Governments do not like the criticisms they face, particularly of human rights abuses. However, this is not the first time India has displayed a sort of retribution policy towards journalists and journalistic entities that are critical of what is happening under the Modi Administration. The Minister talks about our close relationship with India and its enabling frank discussions, but can we genuinely discuss the hostility that those who criticise human rights abuses are experiencing? A young woman journalist, Rana Ayyub, was refused exit to travel to Britain to take part in seminars and a conference about the way in which the Muslim community in India were suffering at the hands of the Government. Just how frank can the Government be with our great friend India?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise equally the important work the noble Baroness continues to champion on media freedom around the world and the protection of journalists. I assure her that the strength of our relationship with India is such that, in my various hats, including as Human Rights Minister, there is a regular dialogue on particular issues and cases. We have constructive exchanges. As I have experienced during my time as Minister responsible, the level and nature of our engagement, and our ability to engage—at times not in a public manner but privately—has unlocked and seen progress. Equally, we expect that kind of scrutiny of ourselves as well. I assure the noble Baroness of my good offices in ensuring that, when issues arise, we raise them directly and constructively with the Indian authorities. At times we will do this in significant private engagements, but those also unlock constructive outcomes.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister give an insight into what advice, if any, has been given by the BBC India legal and accounting team on what might be the best moves in this regard? Is the FCDO connecting directly with these professional services to be assured that everything is being done in the way which we know that it will be being done, and that we have the good advice of professional services within India?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot comment too much on this ongoing investigation by the Indian authorities, but the BBC is engaging very constructively. We all know that the BBC is a professional organisation, independent editorially and in its governance and structures. It is important that we look to resolve these particular issues. The BBC is a valued asset of the United Kingdom around the world. As we saw in the earlier Statement, it provides valuable sources of information as well. It is important for us to seek, through our relationship with India, to resolve in a constructive way any issues that arise across the piece on human rights or any other matters. Both countries are absolutely committed to strengthening our relationship bilaterally.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I think I heard the Minister say that he met the high commissioner in London on this specific issue. For the sake of clarity, could he confirm whether that is the case? If so, does the Minister have plans to meet the high commissioner or for the Government to engage with the Indian authorities as this investigation is concluded, because obviously follow-up is extremely important in this matter?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the short answer to my noble friend’s first question is yes. As I said, it is the nature of that engagement and our investment in that relationship which allows us to engage in such a direct way. Our high commissioner and his team on the ground in Delhi are engaging and have raised these issues with the Indian authorities. The important thing is that the BBC is engaging constructively with the Indian authorities. We all hope that there will be a progressive resolution to these issues and that the BBC will continue to operate as it does elsewhere. I am refraining from commenting too much because this is ongoing, but the important thing in all this is that the BBC and the authorities are engaging constructively—and it is clear to me that they are.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

I want to come back to the first question I asked the Minister, which I do not think he fully answered. Will the Government look at pausing discussions on services and data in the free trade talks in the light of what is happening?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe I have already answered the question. The importance of the FTA is such that, if and when certain issues arise, we will aim to address them constructively. The important thing is that both countries are absolutely committed to delivering an inclusive, multifaceted FTA, and our progress will continue on all fronts in that regard.