Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

3rd reading
Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I place on record my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. She has heard a lot of complaints about the things that Members of your Lordships’ House disagree with, and I associate myself with some of those complaints, but this Bill has been something of an endurance test. At a quarter to one in the morning last week, as we debated citizenship fees, I thought that maybe this was not the way to conduct parliamentary business. However, I was particularly pleased that, during the course of our proceedings, the noble Baroness was specifically recognised and raised to the Privy Council; it was a just reward for the way in which she serves your Lordships’ House.

I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, has been listening in the Chamber this afternoon. He spoke in our debate last week about the position of young Hong Kongers. Along with the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, the noble Baroness was incredibly helpful in incorporating into this Bill something that will really benefit young people in Hong Kong who, born after 1997, were not part of the BNO scheme that their parents had been part of. I have already seen emails from people in Hong Kong expressing their thanks to your Lordships’ House.

Finally, I extend my thanks to Members from all sides who supported my amendment on providing safe and secure routes out of genocide in various parts of the world. I hope that that will not be lost in the maelstrom as we now proceed to ping-pong but will be given serious thought, and that maybe further discussion can take place as this Bill now proceeds to another place.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, in his comments about my noble friend the Minister, on her effective stewardship of this Bill and the recognition that she has recently received in becoming a member of the Privy Council.

I would like to add a slightly different perspective from that of some noble Lords who have spoken in this stage of the legislation. I support this Bill. I have not contributed to a great extent during its passage, but noble Lords may have noticed that I have spent a lot of time listening to the debates during its period in your Lordships’ House. Although I support the Bill, I do not do so blindly. I am a great believer in the parliamentary process, and I have always taken the view that the process of scrutiny always improves legislation. The Bill leaves this House to return to the other place stronger than when it arrived. I commend many noble lords who have worked to achieve that, including my noble friend the Minister and her colleagues on the Front Bench.

However, I will make a couple of other observations. One of the things that I have found a bit concerning in listening to some of the debates during this Bill’s period with us is the way in which some noble Lords in bringing forward their amendments, or those who have supported their amendments, have sought to suggest that people who are kind are people who will support them—in a way, trying to define those who oppose the Bill as the only people who speak for those who are kind and generous when it comes to those who come to our country in their time of need. As the Minister said earlier, it is important for us to recognise that the need and desire for stronger immigration controls, and the generosity of spirit of the British people to refugees and to asylum seekers, are not mutually exclusive. Actually, a lot of people feel strongly that it is because of stronger controls that people feel able to be that much more generous in the way they feel they want to be to those in need.

So, whatever happens when the other place considers the amendments that have been made in your Lordships’ House and sends the Bill back to us, I hope that when we get to that stage in the passage of this legislation we will all refrain from trying to monopolise or reserve for ourselves a definition of kindness that is not embracing of those who also want to see stronger immigration controls.

Combined Authorities (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 24th March 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their strong words of welcome in support of these orders. I shall start by acknowledging a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. He quoted a report stressing that a combined authority is not a merger. I agree with that. These combined authorities open the way for more effective collaboration between the councils and their partners to promote economic growth and secure investment for their area. This is about collaboration. It is most definitely not a merger.

My noble friend Lord Storey again flagged the question of the naming of these combined authorities. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, went into greater detail about his concerns and said that the statutory names on the orders do not trip off the tongue. The most important thing for me to do is to be absolutely clear in restating what I have said and to answer directly the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that the decision about what a combined authority might want to call itself will be a matter for that combined authority. The names on the orders are the legal names, but we feel that it is right for these combined authorities to decide the best way to—I know the noble Lord did not like the word “brand”—present themselves and their local people to the rest of the country and indeed the world. As the noble Lord said, there is widespread awareness of Liverpool around the world. On that, I can be absolutely clear, and I hope I have reassured noble Lords on that point.

My noble friend Lord Storey asked for some assurances around accountability and transparency. I am happy to confirm that these orders and other existing legislation place robust requirements on the combined authorities. To the point made both by him and by my noble friend Lord Shipley, I can say that the combined authority will be governed by its members and subject to scrutiny by one or more overview and scrutiny committee, with membership drawn from members of the councils concerned, to hold the combined authority to account. Good governance practice will mean that such committees will be politically balanced, enabling appropriate representation of councils’ minority parties in the governance of combined authorities.

My noble friend Lord Shipley asked some specific questions around how proportionality will work, who would choose the chairman of the committee and how agendas would be decided. I understand why he raises these questions and certainly acknowledge to him the importance of these points. However, what he has outlined is what I would describe as, and what would be commonly described as, good practice. What we are clear about is that it is for the individual councils and the combined authority itself to decide how they will put in place their arrangements. I urge them to take the good practice approach that we would all expect and want them to follow, not least because of the strong welcome that we all have for this new governance structure.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Can the Minister clarify further how it will be possible to see minority representation when in a combined authority there is only single-party representation—and, therefore, only leaders of that party are part of the combined authority? Is it not therefore particularly important that there should be some specificity when it comes down to the openness of meetings, and some requirement that meetings should be able to be accessible by the public and the media?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord raises a couple of points there. The point that I am getting to with the overview and scrutiny committee is that it would be made up of representation from the various authorities that make up membership of the combined authority. The scrutiny committee that will hold the combined authority to account will be made up not of the chairman or the leaders of the different local authorities but of people from the different parties represented in that local authority. So there will be a variety of political parties represented on the scrutiny committee that holds the combined authority to account.

As to access to meetings of the combined authority, I was going to come on to that, because it was a point that my noble friend Lord Storey also raised. They will be subject to exactly the same transparency requirements as local authorities. So, yes, the meetings of combined authorities will be open to the public; this is a statutory requirement. Their minutes will be published in exactly the same way as local authority minutes will be published—and, indeed, they will be subject to the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act in exactly the same way as local authority meetings are at this time. I hope that before I sit down I will be able to confirm that the scrutiny committees will also be open to scrutiny in the same way.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to West Yorkshire and York in particular. He acknowledged there that we are seeking what we describe as a legislative reform order to amend primary legislation on combined authorities to enable a council that is not contiguous with other members of the combined authority but which is in the same functional economic area to become a constituent council of that combined authority if it wishes. As a first step, we will be consulting on proposals for such a legislative reform order, which will be an opportunity for those with views on this to put them to government.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also referred, I think, to the combined authorities’ ability to reclaim VAT. I confirm that they will not be disadvantaged by VAT legislation. Last week, the Government launched a consultation on the proposal to add Greater Manchester and these proposed combined authorities to the existing VAT refund scheme for local authorities, which can be achieved through secondary legislation. The consultation closes on 18 April and, following that, if the Government decide to proceed, parliamentary approval will be sought to give effect to this and to enable established combined authorities to recover VAT, just as the constituent local councils can.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also sought confirmation that local authorities and the ITAs that will be abolished would not be subjected to any disadvantage around tax arrangements. I will see whether the answer to that emerges, but if it does not, I will write to the noble Lord. I can confirm that there will be no disadvantage. I am nearly at the point where I might be able to avoid a letter, which would be great.

Going back to the point that I was talking about previously, I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and all noble Lords, that the scrutiny committee will be open to the public, as will be the combined authority meetings.

Several noble Lords mentioned devolution and localism more generally. The Localism Act 2011 devolved powers not only to local authorities but to local communities. We are interested in discussing with local authorities what more can be done to empower them to deliver economic growth and take their communities forward. We certainly hope that more of the combined authorities will come forward. As my noble friend Lord Shipley said, the combined authority covering local authorities in the north-east will be with us very shortly. I hope that I have been able to address all the key issues that have been raised.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 25th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not think that the noble Baroness heard me say that it was small beer. That is not the point that I am making at all; I am making the point that Motability is incredibly important to people, but it will still continue. Yes, some people will not be eligible for it in future, and I know that those who will be affected will feel it very strongly. However, I want to make the point that sometimes in the way in which this is talked about the impression can be given that we are removing Motability from everyone. That is clearly not what is happening.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I am sorry that the Minister feels that that impression is being given. It is certainly not the intention of myself or, I think, anyone else who has spoken in debates to suggest that everybody is going to lose Motability. But one problem that we face is that we are all debating in the dark, because the Government have not been able to provide figures to tell us how many people are likely to lose Motability. It would be extremely helpful for us to know that. Perhaps the noble Baroness could also confirm that in this year’s annual report Motability said that about £17 million was given by way of government aid, and that the Government will support the scheme by about the same amount during the next 12-month period. By what amount will it be reduced in the next four or five years? That will give us some hint of the reduction in the number of vehicles that will be available.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I regret that in the context of this Bill I am not in a position to be able to offer the noble Baroness the kind of response that I know she is looking for. I will, as I have promised, go back to the department and discuss further with colleagues and Ministers the issues that have been raised in the debate tonight. They are clearly important issues. I can see why people wanted to raise these concerns in the context of this Bill and I do not have any problem with the fact that this has been debated and discussed tonight. However, I am not in a position to offer the kind of assurance that the noble Baroness is looking for, but I will go back to the department and follow up in writing with further information, as I am able to, after I have had those discussions.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, for her reply, and especially her assurance that she will ponder on some of the things that have been said in your Lordships’ House this evening and discuss them with officials and come back to us in writing. I also thank my noble friends Lady Grey-Thompson and Lord Low, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for their contributions to this evening’s debate.

The Minister is quite right that this would not be the ideal vehicle; it is not the ideal amendment. No pun is intended. But you have to take what you can in parliamentary life and this is the only Bill that is before Parliament at the present time that is capable of amendment on this crucial issue. I felt that it was incredibly unsatisfactory when we debated this issue last, when it was lumped in with a number of other unamendable regulations that we took one after another. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, rightly said, this is not an issue that has been given sufficient attention in either House during the progress of all the Bills and regulations that have been proceeding, yet it is one that causes great anxiety outside your Lordships’ House. If the estimate that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has given is correct—that 185,000 vehicles could be affected—that should give us all pause for thought. We should all stop and think about the implications for the owners and users of those vehicles. It will place limitations on their freedom of travel and their ability to get to work, schools, health appointments, shops, engage in social life, and all the other issues that have been raised during the debate.

It is also extraordinarily unfair on Motability, particularly on the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, who does such important work on behalf of disabled people throughout the country and who is held in such high esteem here in your Lordships’ House. It is unfair to expect people to operate in the unknown. I was surprised, therefore, that the noble Baroness was unable to confirm whether the £17 million mentioned in the annual report of Motability will be the figure for the following years. I am grateful to her for saying that she will establish what the figures are. That will give us some idea of where the balance of responsibility then truly lies. Obviously, we cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If Motability has not been given adequate resources, it will not be its fault if vehicles then come to be repatriated.

I was struck by what the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said about the appeals process. I tabled some Written Questions just a week or so ago involving that issue, among others. I tabled four Questions and got eight lines by way of reply in which the noble Lord, Lord Freud, said that the Government have no plans to fast-track appeals to Motability customers or provide financial support to the Motability scheme to help those people who lose their vehicle through personal independence payments reassessment. It could not be clearer that not only will there be no resources made available if this position continues to apply but there will be no plans to fast-track appeals from Motability customers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, rightly told us, in the 28-day period that people will have it will simply not be possible to deal with the avalanche of appeals that will arrive.

The noble Baroness also said that there had never previously been a need to protect Motability users in the way that is set out in the amendment. However, never previously were there circumstances in which people’s Motability vehicles were going to be taken away from them. Never before were we confronted with the sequestration or repatriation of vehicles that were awarded to people as a result of a properly established process created by the department and indeed by Parliament.

The noble Baroness also said that the amendment discriminates in favour of those who have opted into the scheme. Of course, that is true. I would rather that everybody who will find their mobility allowance limited as a result of the changes will be assisted. However, simply because we cannot help every group, that is not a reason for not helping any of them. Not being able to solve the problems of the entire world is not a reason for not helping anyone.

My modest amendment simply sets out to help users of the scheme at the moment as they stand to lose their vehicles. I hope that we will address what will effectively be an even worse form of discrimination should that proceed. The amendment simply seeks to create what the noble Baroness referred to as a period of grace—the time in which the issue can be resolved. Nobody should be placed in the invidious position of being told that if they cannot afford to buy their vehicle—we are talking about vast numbers of people who by definition are living below the poverty line and so will not be in a position to buy, maintain and continue to run their vehicle—it will be taken away from them.

I do not believe that the Ministers who are sitting on the Front Bench are the sort of people who would happily or willingly see such a set of circumstances occur. That is why I hope that between now and Report it will not be left to my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson, me or others to bring forward an amendment that by definition the Government will say does not do this or that. I hope that the noble Baroness will use the Bill as an opportunity to put right something that will otherwise come back to haunt many people, including the Government, in ways that I do not believe they would wish. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.