Israel and Palestine

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree it is a very important matter, worth considering, but I am afraid my answer at the moment to the noble Lord is that we are still looking at it—in a positive light and in light of the need to upgrade the negotiations and get momentum behind them—but we have not reached a decision yet.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Does the Minister agree that whatever the effect of the unrest, the fundamental fact remains that it is the United States that will have the key role, if it so chooses, in the peace process and, further, that our own potential role is hampered by the fact that many Israeli politicians and military people stand the danger of being arrested in this country if they were to come? What are the prospects for Clause 151 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which at least would allow the DPP to interpose his judgment, rather than that of a magistrate, before a private prosecution takes place?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As the noble Lord knows, the Government intend to amend the law so that a private individual cannot obtain an arrest warrant under universal jurisdiction without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions. We are quite pleased with progress—the legislation passed through Second Reading in early December and we expect the Bill to have Royal Assent before July. The problem has been recognised and action is being taken.

France: Bilateral Defence Co-operation

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any proposals to build on the recent treaties with France on bilateral defence co-operation by exploring initiatives for diplomatic and foreign policy co-operation.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, our relationship with France, further strengthened by the November 2010 UK-France summit, is one of our most important bilateral relationships. Since President Sarkozy visited London for the UK-France summit, we have also welcomed the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Europe Minister. Bilaterally, we work on a range of foreign policy and European issues, as well as immigration, counterterrorism, climate change, employment and social affairs. France is also an important trade partner. It will host the next UK-France summit later this year.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, surely the logic of sharing defence assets is that we need a foreign policy agreement on where to deploy those assets. Now, when both countries are experiencing similar financial stresses, should we not look at the collocation of embassies, sharing diplomats and co-ordinating policies in areas such as West Africa? Will the Minister also consider the possibility of encouraging our Commonwealth partners to look at a new dialogue with La Francophonie, which, again, would be in our mutual interest? Where are the new proposals in preparation for the summit to be held later this year?

Middle East and North Africa

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 14th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I thank my noble friend. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has indeed made clear his view that it is not up to us alone, but that we can play a distinctive and effective role. We intend to do so.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, in the final paragraph of the Statement, it is said that,

“the UK will be an active and distinctive voice in the Middle East”.

That begs the question of how that voice will be transmitted to the various countries of the Middle East. In Friday’s debate the noble Lord said, very flexibly and in a very welcome way, that he would revisit the cuts to the BBC World Service. He also mentioned the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. Surely we need to look at this in the round and look at what DfID is doing in the Maghreb and elsewhere. We should also look at strengthening our embassies. For example, when the Foreign Affairs Committee visited the Maghreb five years or so ago, we were very concerned about the low emphasis that we placed on that key area. Surely we should now revisit this and reconfigure all those various instruments that are available to us to convey the voice that is spoken of in the last paragraph.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I would make it clear to the noble Lord that the words I said on Friday were carefully chosen. I did not say that I would revisit the cuts; I said that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary was looking at the proposals that had been put to him by the BBC World Service and examining the reasons and explanations for the decisions that it wants to take. At the heart of these is the view of the BBC World Service authorities, under whom these decisions have to be made, that the short-wave services are not the best way and the priority way of maintaining communication and our voice and influence in the Arab world. They point to the fact that—we debated this at length on Friday—although radio is still extremely important, up and coming are online services, a mass of television services, iPad services, mobile internet services and a thousand other things which are creating the opportunities to convey good messages and, I am afraid, some bad ones as well. Those are the conditions of the modern world that have empowered the street, as it were, more than ever. What I said on Friday reflects exactly the position at the moment. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is certainly looking at it and discussing it with the BBC but it is up to the latter to decide how it wants to react within the inevitable parameters of the budget, which are unavoidable for all sorts of reasons I do not want to go into now.

As to the noble Lord’s wider point, he is absolutely right—the situation has changed. As to whether that should have been predicted exactly, some of us indicated more than a decade ago that this sort of world was emerging. The situation has changed in the Middle East. There could be entirely new relationships between peoples and Governments and parties and politics and military forces. In these circumstances we must be agile and review the disposition of our influences and our programmes. The noble Lord is right about that and I agree with him.

Middle East and North Africa

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Friday 11th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, we have had the privilege of listening to two magisterial opening speeches and the benefit of hearing from noble Lords who have drawn on a vast reservoir of experience in the Middle East. My own experience is more limited but in 1967 I visited President Nasser in his home just after the six days’ war. He told me that Israeli airplanes had circled his house, and that it would not happen again. I was again in Egypt last summer where I met members of the Muslim Brotherhood, albeit under the labels of independents, in the Parliament of Egypt. I also met the Arab League. When I saw that Amr Moussa was mingling with the crowds in Tahrir Square, I realised that we did, indeed, have a watershed in this region.

History is happening. Indeed, had this debate taken place even yesterday, it might have had a different tone. There is an old adage that democracies wither and die slowly but autocracies die suddenly by fits. There is a difference between the autocracies in the Middle East—all under pressure—and the monarchies. However, even in Morocco, which has gone further along this route and whose king, Mohammed VI, can claim descent from the Prophet, one is likely to see demands for a more constitutional monarchy. One’s first thought is that, as in 1989—the year of revolutions—events have caught Governments by surprise. I suppose the only mitigation is that events have caught the Muslim Brotherhood by surprise as well. It is a fast moving picture. The Tunisian interim Prime Minister is a member of the old regime, as, of course, is Vice-President Suleiman of Egypt, who seeks to negotiate with the popular representatives. I am reminded that revolutions are poetry and governing is prose. When we move from the unifying demand of the removal of President Mubarak, one is likely to see a division in the square between the absolutists who brook no compromise and the pragmatists, who will, we hope, ultimately triumph and will be met with cries of treachery from some in the crowd.

What has changed in the Middle East? One thing which has clearly changed is the fear felt of rulers by the ruled. Your Lordships will recall when Ceausescu appeared on the balcony in Bucharest and was hissed at by the crowd. There was almost a Ceausescu moment when the rulers tried to order the people in Tahrir Square and were met with indifference and opposition. The situation will never be the same again for the rulers of other Arab states and all autocrats in the region will sleep less easily—“uneasy lies the head”.

The future is uncertain. Some pessimists see parallels with what happened with the Jacobins in 1789 and with the Bolsheviks in 1917, and the danger of a well organised group taking control—again, new presbyter may become old priest writ large. However, many signs of hope are evident and are being broadcast by the new media and new means of communication. What has not changed are the challenges posed by democracy and the fact that the states in the Middle East are all ranked very low indeed in the EIU democracy index, which means that institutions in those countries have to be developed almost from scratch.

Equally, the economic and demographic factors have not changed. Successive UNDP reports on human development in the Arab world, as previous speakers pointed out, show the problems of governance, the underachievement in the Arab world, the unwillingness often to face reality, and the scapegoatism which states that the fault is not in ourselves but in our stars, the United States or Zionism. Expectations are high, yet there is high unemployment throughout the region and a young population. Roughly 50 per cent of the population of most countries in the region is under 25. How can one possibly meet the demands for improved education, housing and health after the turbulence of transition, which is likely to deter much foreign direct investment, and when global food prices are increasing inexorably? There is a clear danger of disillusion if new Governments do not deliver.

Those challenges of meeting the aspirations of an impoverished and very young population will have to be faced. What will be the result? For some, the choice is either 1979 Iran and the rule of the mullahs or, far more to be desired, 1989 and the year of revolutions in eastern and central Europe. My hope lies in the precedent and model of Turkey. The noble Lord, Lord Luce, was the only person to make this point. Turkey is a functioning democracy where the Islamic party, the AKP, works within a secular constitution. My noble friend Lord Desai mentioned the unravelling of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey historically has had an enormous influence in the region, and Prime Minister Erdogan has gained much credibility in the Arab street and has so far made all the right noises.

Turning to the relevance for the region, we could profitably examine the effects from Syria to the Gulf and beyond. The Arab street will clearly influence Governments, and perhaps lead movements towards Sharia law and to a much harder line to Israel and the Middle East peace processes. The rejectionists will probably be emboldened, and Iran of course has exulted in what has happened, although it may well face turbulence in its own streets.

There have been protests in the West Bank against Abu Mazen, and the Fatah old guard is under pressure. History may show that the Netanyahu Government missed a major opportunity. I recall discussing the issue with a former Kadima Cabinet Minister who said to Prime Minister Netanyahu on the eve of his accession to power, “You know it took us in Kadima four years to recognise the realities of what we should do with regard to the Palestinians”. Of course, there was the deathbed repentance of Barak before he lost power. The former Cabinet Minister said to Netanyahu, “Will it take you another wasted four years before you come to that same realisation?”. Perhaps WikiLeaks has revealed the concessions that the pragmatic Palestinian leadership was able to and prepared to make, but obdurate Israel was blocked by coalition sclerosis. Instead of an agreed settlement on the basis of two states there is more uncertainty, and Israel is likely to lose the security of its southern border with Egypt and possibly that of its border with Jordan.

I accept much of the Foreign Secretary’s criticism of Israel, but I wish that he had shown greater sensitivity to its problems. I hope, incidentally, that the Government will soon announce a change in the universal jurisdiction that prevents many Israeli politicians who could play a leading role in peace talks from visiting this country. That is long overdue.

I approve of the EU Council statement about the waste of taxpayers’ money on the autocracy in Egypt, but there should have been positive as well as negative conditionality. What has been the EU and US response? I understand the hesitation, because of the clash between values and interests. The starting point must be humility and recognition of limitations. However, the EU—as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out—has vast experience of soft power, with programmes to assist countries on its periphery, and there is also the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. DfID may have to alter its priorities and invest more in Governments in the Maghreb. When I visited the Maghreb countries some years ago, I was struck by how limited our diplomatic effort there was.

As an aside, I recall when I was once in the western Sahara that my host at lunch left suddenly when his watch alarm went off. I asked why he had set it so and he answered that it was because the 1 pm news on the BBC World Service was starting: then he ran out to hear it. I echo the view of other noble Lords that we should look again at the cuts to the World Service.

What happens on the southern shore of the Mediterranean is relevant to us all. The Barcelona process of 1975 is dead. Euromed has met some of the same obstacles. Surely it is time for new initiatives in a new context. The Arab countries may now be more ready to give a positive response. The first response, as the Foreign Secretary has said, will be to the appeal of the Prime Minister of Tunisia. On the question of schemes of co-operation, I say yes to the Westminster Foundation, to the British Council, to good investment and to reconciling our interests and values and engaging across the board in a spirit of co-operation, particularly with the substructure or corps intermédiare—the non-governmental organisations. There are surely new possibilities for co-operation and we can, albeit in a new spirit, influence the region positively. I sometimes think that it is equivalent to the United States and Mexico, although the Mediterranean is deeper than the Rio Grande. It is vital to us in terms of energy, migration and general stability. It is a great challenge for us, for the United States, for our EU partners and, most of all, for the people of the region.

European Council and North Africa

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not want to move further than the words expressed by Sir Gus O’Donnell and the conclusions drawn by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. My right honourable friend said that the report indicates that while there is—to repeat the words of my noble friend—no doubt at all about the veracity of the statements made by senior members of the previous Government, it is clear that there was more to tell and that some pieces of the total picture were lacking. That is where my right honourable friend and the Government stand on this matter. It must be for all those who were involved at the time to establish what they believed to be the position. Indeed, some of these remarks were made with force and feeling by the people who were directly concerned when the matter was discussed in the other place earlier this afternoon. I am not going to go further than that.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the Statement sets out a more hard-line approach in respect of assistance to Egypt. Was this co-ordinated in any way with the US? I am recalling that Condoleezza Rice said in Cairo in 2005 that the US would no longer give priority to stability over democracy. Is the implication that, had there not been a revolution in Egypt, we would still have continued to spend billions of taxpayers’ money in Egypt and neighbouring countries with no reciprocity in terms of progress on torture, the judiciary, democracy and so on? Secondly, it is of note that the Prime Minister spoke to Vice-President Suleiman. It is the Vice-President who is co-ordinating the discussions with a number of the opposition parties. Is there any implication that, as some are suggesting, the President himself is fading more into the background, leaving the lead to the Vice-President?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the question of co-ordination with the United States, my honourable and right honourable friends, both in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and, obviously, in the Government as a whole, are in constant contact at all levels with United States officials. It would be naive, however, to stand at the Dispatch Box and pretend that these huge upheavals and events do not present to policy-makers and experts, no doubt in Washington and other capitals, something of a dilemma.

The pattern of the past produced a sort of stability, but it was the kind of stability that could be upset at every moment, as it was. The combustible materials were there; it was a question of when someone threw in a match. That is what happened in Cairo. That raises for the most balanced and clear-thinking people a dilemma as to whether the new pattern is going to improve on the old pattern or, indeed, where the new pattern will take us. We all know the adage about revolutions devouring their own children. They can turn into an opportunity to be seized for the good, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary was rightly saying the other morning, or they can slide away in an unpredictable series of sequences, like the French Revolution, to which I referred earlier.

It is hard to answer the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, about how we and the Americans can be totally accurate in our predictions and the certainty of where to go. It is very difficult. We are monitoring and watching the situation very carefully, as are the Americans. We are reinforcing our concern in this nation and the American concern in their nation for liberty and freedom and the basic principles of civilised existence. We are hoping that these patterns will be reflected in whatever emerges in Egypt and, indeed, in other turbulent political scenes in the region. There is no guarantee or certainty, however, and this must be realistically and reasonably understood.

As for the pattern of power deployment inside Egypt and whether Omar Suleiman is now taking the reins, I do not think that I can comment beyond what we have all read in the newspapers. Mr Mubarak clearly wants to stay a few more months. He has appointed Omar Suleiman to take the lead in these negotiations. It is right that our leaders should contact him to understand as much as we can of how he sees the situation. This must be a dialogue that will, I hope, develop further in the future as we see what path these discussions take and what part the Muslim Brotherhood leadership and other political forces in Egypt play in them. This is really, for us, a matter to hope about rather than a matter in any way to interfere with. This is for Egypt to decide.

Middle East

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is right and confirms what I have just said, that the countries are different. I will certainly provide the briefing she requests. She is right, too, to suggest that a kind of wind of change—although one must be careful about historical analogies—seems to be sweeping through the area, and that raises new questions about forms of government. Whether those forms are along the lines of previous patterns or whether we see new forms of government, the general wish of a nation like ours must be to see orderly transition, maximum stability and the development of democratically minded and balanced societies that can bring peace and prosperity to the entire region.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, on the face of it, the Government who are likely to emerge from the current turbulence in Jordan are likely to be much closer to the Arab street, and therefore are likely to take a much more negative view about the Middle East peace process. Is that the United Kingdom Government’s assessment?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is a possibility. Clearly, the developments in Egypt will affect the outlook in the Israel/Palestine dispute and, depending on how other patterns evolve, that may well be so. The noble Lord, with his expertise, is right: from the point of view of Israel, things are changing, and there will need to be a reassessment. But exactly how it is going to work out it is too early to say.

Egypt

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 31st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I know what my noble friend is getting at, but I think that that is a false polarity. Something that I have learnt—in particular, in my dealings with the Commonwealth, which does not really come into this issue—is that democracy, the rule of law and good governance are the foundations of stability, investment, jobs and trade expansion. Where those things are not adhered to, or at least there is no trend towards them, problems arise that lead to challenges—not in every country; we can think of exceptions to that generalisation, but that is the scene. I do not think that the pattern of differentiation hinted at in my noble friend's remarks is entirely justified.

The certain and central truth is in my noble friend’s other observation that the UK has a long history in the area, not all of it bad. I am always interested in the way in which many countries with which we might have had bad relations in the past are extremely pro this country—I am thinking of countries slightly further to the east in the Gulf—and are constantly asking for stronger renewed links with the United Kingdom. Some of them have recently been saying to me, “Where is the United Kingdom? Please will you come back?”, so not all the history has been bad, although some of it has been very awkward indeed. The history of our relations with Egypt has had its good moments and its terrible moments over the past century, and certainly for the past 40 or 50 years, as we all vividly remember.

As to the practical matter of routes to the airport and getting nationals out, we are watching that carefully. If it were necessary to think in terms of special charters and so on, we would move immediately, but so far we are finding that the commercial airlines, including British and some non-British airlines, have capacity. The airport is operating again today better than it was and, most importantly, the routes to Cairo airport are clear and properly guarded in a way that it was feared they were not the day before yesterday and yesterday. The situation can change at any time, but at the moment it looks a little better. I hope that that is helpful to my noble friend.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, we should all devoutly hope that there will be a peaceful transition to democracy, notwithstanding the demographic explosion in Egypt, which leads to the lack of jobs and the water shortage, but there is another option. The spectre of the Iranian revolution still haunts the Middle East. The Minister will recall that at that time our embassy was rather dazzled by the Peacock Throne and that the revolution went downhill from Mr Bakhtiar, a liberal democrat, to end with the mullahs and Ayatollah Khomeini. How serious is the danger of such a decline? We must recognise not only how Egypt, the most populous Arab country, would be affected but, because of the linkage of the Muslim Brotherhood and other less moderate forces to the rejectionist forces in the Middle East, the blow that would result to the Middle East peace process.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, the dangers are there. Revolutions and massive street protests can take unpredictable paths. I think that the analogy with the Peacock Throne and the fall of the Shah is not strong. There has been deep recognition for some time that the pattern of rule in Egypt and the far from fair and free elections conducted last year were paving stones on the route to trouble and that, although one cannot always assess the exact moment of conflagration, there were dangers. I said earlier that the power of electronic media, including the internet, in mobilising people and protests at lightning speed should not be underestimated. Some people have mentioned the machinery of Twitter, Facebook and all those other things. They can convey and gather information and organise people at fantastic speed.

The dangers were seen. Now the task, not for any individual country but for all responsible states men and women around the world, is to see that the pattern unfurls in a moderate way and that the more extreme elements—the younger hotheads in the militant Muslim Brotherhood, the jihadists, and so on—do not hold sway. My view is that there are many sensible, wise and talented people in Egypt and a strong middle class who, although they might be frustrated by past events, have a strong enough voice to give us some hope that moderation will prevail.

Tunisia

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 17th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

This is a positive set of observations. Having visited Tunisia on more than one occasion, I wondered how the basis of its economy could be sustained by its very successful tourism and by what I am told are its 20 million date trees. How one can count them? I do not know. How can it be done? The answer is that it has been done, but clearly diversification and development are badly needed. I suspect that deep down inside the causes of this present disturbance is the fact that they have not been developed fast enough. We and the EU, bilaterally, certainly have a role to play, as do our French friends and neighbours.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Our key national interest appears to be the security of our own nationals, and to that extent the Foreign Office appears to have responded speedily and in an exemplary manner. I congratulate the Minister on what he said. Successive human development reports of the UNDP illustrate the lack of poor governance in the various Arab countries, and I wonder to what extent we were already alerted to the problem and the way in which it was building up, although the spirit in Tunisia appears to be far freer than in some of its neighbours in the Maghreb. Can the Minister say to what extent he believes lessons will be learnt and the extent to which we will urge neighbouring Governments—perhaps not us, but, better, the European Union as a whole—to listen to the people and their legitimate grievances about food security and employment, even if we do not particularly like the Governments who emerge and who might have a rather different view from us on world issues.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hope, as we must all hope, that the lessons will be learnt. They are fascinating lessons, and some very profound observations have been made. The emergence of the food shortage issue and its impact on political stability in certain societies is in itself a vast issue that relates to other aspects of crops for biological use, biofuel, and so on. That has all kinds of impacts on world food prices, which at the moment are rising very fast.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, with his considerable experience of foreign affairs in the other place and here, for his kind words of congratulation. The Foreign Office to which I, as noble Lords will know, am relatively new, has demonstrated that in a situation of this kind, precise timing is always difficult to anticipate. However, the Foreign Office has acted with extreme speed, along with great help from ABTA and the commercial operators, who have done remarkably well in evacuating 3,000 tourists from the country at such enormous speed.

Turkey

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Thursday 13th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, in contributing to the welcome debate of the noble Baroness, I shall focus mainly on relations with the European Union. However, as a preliminary point, I should stress our interdependence, which many colleagues have mentioned and which is evidenced today by the signing of the declaration on the Nabucco project by the Presidents of the European Union and Azerbaijan.

It goes without saying that Turkey has a dynamic economy, and I will not rehearse the numbers mentioned by earlier contributors to the debate. Turkey is an old nation with a young people, and its foreign policy is based on that new economic dynamism. There is an assertiveness, which is mostly but not always welcome, a new independence from the old role as the spearhead of NATO, and a return to a more active regional role. A mere glance at the map will show the importance of Turkey playing that role, and not just in its region. One has seen this in its mediating role in the Balkans and the rather surprising alliance with Serbia. One sees it in its relationship with Russia and the improved commercial relationships with the Turkic-speaking countries to the east. Perhaps I may say in passing that Turkey’s relationship with that region is much more welcome than a relationship between the Iran of the mullahs and that region. Turkey’s role in the Middle East is also obvious.

On EU entry, a decade ago it was easy to ask, “Where else could Turkey go?”. Now, with this new self-confidence, the answer is more likely to be, “Yes, the EU remains our preferred option, but we have shown that we can stand alone in our region, if necessary”. However, this assertiveness is often accompanied by a strident populist anti-Americanism. Anti-western feelings are demonstrated by the gloating over the discomfiting of the US at the United Nations in the vote on sanctions against Iran. In a recent visit to Turkey, under the auspices of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, I was surprised at the number of senior politicians to whom I spoke who were very ready to give Iran the benefit of every doubt on the nuclear issue.

Greece used to be known as the “asterisk country” in EU foreign policy. If Turkey were to join the EU, it is likely that it would speedily replace Greece as the asterisk country that differentiated itself from the policies of the other EU countries. In respect of Israel, the position has worsened since the AKP came to power. This has recently been highlighted by the flotilla incident. Let us hope that when the UN Security Council report emerges in mid-February, it will calm matters. Certainly the referendum in September is very welcome.

Where does Turkey stand now in relation to EU entry? Its ambition is to enter by 2023, the anniversary of the foundation of the republic. By 2023, the EU might be very different. By that time, Turkey, too, might be very different. There is thus an argument for looking at the long term. A number of countries in the Balkans have overtaken Turkey in their EU ambitions. Some argue that Islamophobia has played a part. I believe the part has been minor. The recent EU Commission report on enlargement, for example, very warmly endorsed Albania, another Muslim country.

The problem with Turkey is its size, various cultural matters and its dynamic demography. Even without the major problem of Cyprus, the EU is clearly deeply divided. We perhaps forget too readily that France would have to have a referendum, which might make Turkish accession very unlikely. Therefore, one must look at other options. If immigration is to be such a sizeable obstacle, why not look at going ahead without freedom of movement? We need to show the importance that we attach to aiding Turkey in its fight against terrorism. We need to seek to join Turkey in EU foreign policy discussions. Why should Turkey not be linked with the CFSP? There is clearly a divergence between the elites in Europe and the people, and it is clear that demography and immigration are very much behind that.

My final remark is about how we see our relations as Europeans. The safe course for Europe would be to have a zone of comfort and to have a comparative and rather genteel decline, with special relations with its periphery: Ukraine, Russia and Turkey. The bolder and perhaps more turbulent course is to recognise that the Turkey of today is not ready for entry, but we need it—if it satisfies the Copenhagen criteria, perhaps with derogations—to give a certain dynamism to Europe. Currently there is stagnation, indecision and a degree of hypocrisy on the issue in the European Union, but the crisis looms this year or next. The choice is there, the drift cannot continue and it is for us as Europeans to choose the nature of our future.

Human Rights

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, such is my admiration for the noble Lord, increased by today’s debate, that he has persuaded me to read a number of the Conservative Human Rights Commission reports, which I found very valuable. My only comment is that those recommendations did not come from year zero; the previous Government made a substantial contribution to human rights, and there is a case for going ahead on the basis of consensus, as the noble Lord said. They are extremely useful recommendations. My only criticism of the commission report is its failure to mention, for example, the work of the Council of Europe in the human rights field, particularly in respect of the European convention and the Commission on Human Rights for the 47 countries, and the Conservative commission’s curious reluctance to mention the European Union, save in its criticism of its role in the United Nations Human Rights Council.

I hope the Minister will agree that it is important that there are conditionality clauses in EU association agreements, that these clauses are implemented, and that there is collective action so that individual countries such as Denmark cannot be picked off. Collective action is far more valuable. There is a potential role for the European External Action Service, which was inaugurated yesterday. I hope the Government will insist that there is a human rights dimension, including in the Cabinet of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and that that is not neglected by the EEAS.

The noble Lord also mentioned the excellent speech by the Foreign Secretary at Lincoln’s Inn. My only fear is that, rather like Robin Cook’s ethical dimension, which the Daily Mail called a moral foreign policy, there are potential hostages to fortune. There is an abiding temptation in foreign policy to be strong against the weak, such as Burma, and weak against the strong, such as China. The Government have already responded to at least one of the recommendations: the convening of an advisory group on human rights that brings in key NGOs, which is to meet regularly. There is, of course, already a panel concerned with religious freedom, which was set up by the previous Government, but I did criticise them for not allowing the body to meet sufficiently regularly. The point is also made about debates on the Foreign Office annual human rights report in which I played a little role when I chaired the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, as it was the response to one of the recommendations made in our first report.

The commission is also right to point out the need for a more effective UN Human Rights Council. All too often there is a blocking group, which responds by omitting Iran from monitoring, for example, and which is, of course, overtly anti-Israel and pro-Arab. So there is a basis on which it is hoped we can all agree in the field of human rights.

I raise only one part of the vineyard because it is, as the noble Lord has illustrated, a very extensive field and hardly any Governments are not subject to criticism. I think it was Gareth Evans, the former Foreign Minister of Australia, who said, “How can we plausibly talk about human rights, we Australians, if we are bad to our Aborigines?”. We should also ensure that we look into our own practices so that we can be a model, a lighthouse, in our position abroad. So I join the noble Lord in asking the Minister also to respond to various other recommendations made in the commission’s report, including training for our foreign service personnel and special envoys, whom he listed.

My specific point relates not just broadly to freedom of religion but to the freedom to change one’s religion. I commend the Christian Solidarity Worldwide booklet, No Place to Call Home, which sets out the various obligations, which are very clear indeed. First, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights—I stress “universal”—states, among other things, that:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance”.

Equally, Article 18 of the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states:

“No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice”.

There is also, of course, the 1981 declaration. The booklet goes through the various international—indeed universal—obligations which some Islamic countries have sought to qualify but which in my judgment are extremely clear.

Practices in certain countries against apostates are set out very clearly in the report. Those countries include, alas, a number from the Commonwealth such as Malaysia. In most states in Malaysia, apostasy is punishable by fines, imprisonment and lashes, and in some states by death. In general, the ways in which apostates are treated include extrajudicial killings by state agents or mobs, honour killings, detention, imprisonment, torture, denial of access to judicial and social security, and the withdrawal of employment and education rights. Such experiences are blatantly at odds with international obligations.

I end with a final thought. Yesterday’s edition of Libération mentioned the case of the Afghan, Musa Sayed, who has been in prison for six months for apostasy. It is said that western diplomats have tried, not always successfully, to visit him. I hope that those diplomats include those from the UK. We shall wait to see whether the Government honour their welcome promises and whether there is any difference in practice. I hope that in the debate we can create and build on a consensus in the very important field of human rights.