Disabled Access: Public Premises

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, once again, I know that my noble friend has campaigned in this area, and particularly on that issue, with great force and eloquence. On the point about ramps and steps in post offices, there has been a recent case in relation to access to counters, which I think the post office has settled out of court. Therefore, there are cases where practice is changing. I accept that, as my noble friend said, there is certainly more to be done. The Government Equalities Office is looking at the operation of the law and will have heard what my noble friend says, but he said it with great force and it is a point well made.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, the noble Lord who asked the previous question did not include churches—and with good reason because there have been herculean efforts across the estate involving quite difficult church buildings to make them accessible to people with limited ability to get up steps and so forth. Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the local efforts, normally paid for locally, which have transformed the access to historic churches?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for that contribution. Certainly, in my experience of visiting churches and cathedrals in England, that is very much the case. I am visiting cathedrals in Carlisle, Newcastle and Durham over the next two days, so I will be looking to see that they, too, are following the practice that has been pretty near universal in my experience over the past nine months of visiting them.

Housing White Paper

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Bishop of Chester

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend very much indeed for her welcome of the part of the White Paper that relates to older people and disabled people. It was prompted by a Conservative Back-Bencher in the Commons but is supported, I think, across the other place and across this House as something that is very valuable. I have indicated to my noble friend my hope that as we take this forward she and others who have shown an interest—the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Greengross, who have great experience of this through institutions that they represent—will help us craft some thoughts on this. As was indicated in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, this is the first time there has been a provision like this in legislation. It is valuable. It helps not only those who are elderly or disabled but has the bonus that it will free up housing, although that is not the prime intention.

I will respond to a couple of the other points that my noble friend made. There are certainly provisions in the White Paper by which, again, we are seeking to encourage institutional investment in the housing programme. I believe that that will be fruitful and I echo the point she made about pension funds. We will make sure the message goes out that pension funds should, I hope, be included in the process of trying to encourage outside investment away from the public sector towards the private sector and the third sector.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I want to ask about the politics of all this. I speak as a fool in relation to that, but let us take the hypothesis that this policy is a great success, that we have lots more houses and that the price of houses starts to fall. Indeed, let us imagine that land prices start to fall in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, rightly pointed out. All the people who have bought houses in the past 20 years will find that those houses are worth less than they used to be. It seems to me that this is tinkering with a major problem. Do the Government seriously wish to get the average value of a house back down to 3.5 times average earnings? If so, what are the consequences going to be?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes an interesting point. However, as noble Lords will know, I am not a wizard. I can seek to take forward measures that I believe will stabilise the position and mean that house prices do not rise as quickly as they should. That is good news for young people and people who are trying to buy their own house. I accept that, over time, if prices fall, that will not be good news for people who live in those houses. But the most important thing is delivering housing that is affordable. This is not a single policy; a whole raft of policies exists across the range, which is why it has taken some time to promote and produce the White Paper. Although they may not agree with all of it, anybody who has studied the White Paper in any detail will see that it offers a range of tools that can be used to help us build more and get more people on the housing ladder. I think that will be a fair response once noble Lords study the White Paper.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Bishop of Chester

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, speaking briefly from these Benches but entirely personally, because bishops take different views on this, I welcome the realism that lies behind the Commons amendment. Following on from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, it may well be that nature’s way of carbon capture and storage is some sort of vegetation. That may be the solution, but it is hardly a function for the Oil and Gas Authority to supervise. The great cost of extracting carbon dioxide—which can be done perfectly easily, technically—and then transporting it under the North Sea would increase energy prices in this country to an extent that would make the recent threat to our steel industry look like simply the foothills. It would have a major impact in raising energy costs. So the Commons amendment limiting the function of the Oil and Gas Authority is realistic and entirely supportable.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for participating in the debate on this amendment. I will try to cover the points raised and do justice to some very important ones. First, there is nothing inconsistent in having a laser-like focus on the development of the North Sea as a principal objective set out by the Government and developing CCS. I reassure noble Lords who raised the issue—the noble Baronesses, Lady Featherstone, Lady Liddell and Lady Worthington—that the Government are very much wedded to the importance of CCS. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, we set up an advisory committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who I do not think is in his place. He brings to this task great expertise. It has cross-party representation, with all principal parties here represented and also the Scottish nationalists from another place. We will be responding to the advice that we receive from the committee, which I think will come in a timely way at the end of the summer or the beginning of the autumn. I know that the committee has met at least three times already and is driving this agenda very hard.

I will mention what we are doing on CCS to reassure noble Lords. There is collaboration with key partners who are also developing CCS; we are sharing data and research with them. Officials in the department are working on CCS; this is not an area where there is no activity. Our science and innovation budget has been increased, and we are looking at how we can usefully use it. There are developments on Teesside with industrial CCS, which is important. My noble friend Lord Howell made a valid point about carbon capture usage, which is also a key part of what we are looking at—but these things are best done together.

I thank my noble friend Lord Ridley for mentioning the issue of Canada; we study progress there very closely. I also thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester for injecting some realism about the importance of having that laser-like focus on the North Sea, but, at the same time, as has rightly been accentuated and stressed by other noble Lords in the debate, developing a CCS strategy. With that, I commend the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I have made the position on contracts for difference very clear, as I think the noble Baroness appreciates. We will set out the position on contracts for difference this autumn, not at an unspecified date in the future as she suggested in her contribution. That is not long to wait. We are in the autumn now, so I hope that she accepts that an announcement on that will be forthcoming shortly.

I do not want to go over old ground again. We have a cut-off date. I accept that cut-off dates are arbitrary. In Committee on recommital and today, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, made telling contributions, but he suggested that we were taking a legalistic approach to this. It is likely that we will. As he will appreciate, this is legislation. We want it to be certain and for businesses and others to know where we are on this. I accept that dates will be arbitrary, but we have selected a date. Noble Lords have been indicating that they want certainty. We are delivering certainty. We have a basic difference of opinion on these issues. I do not think it is capable of resolution, as it was on the Oil and Gas Authority where we had a basic unity of view. We have a different view on onshore wind. We believe that the Salisbury convention applies here. I disagree with the suggestion that there is something ambiguous about the position in the manifesto. It was made very clear and nobody should have been taken by surprise by this, so I differ materially from what I am sure is the opinion honestly held by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, but I cannot see that we can resolve some of these issues because of the basic difference between us.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I realise that this is Report, but I would like to press the question I put in my intervention. When all is done and dusted—leaving aside the allegations of ideology on all sides—in relation to all the subsidies that are likely to be paid out for wind turbines in the next 25 years, what proportion of that will be saved by this activity?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not know the proportion, but I know that the upper end of the limit is £270 million over the period. That might seem like a small amount, but it is not a small amount to me and I am not sure it would be to anyone else. We have this basic difference, and with that I oppose these amendments.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right on the wording—actually, it is “new public subsidy”, but he is stressing “new”. The point is that those already in receipt of subsidy will continue to have the subsidy. This is for people who have not yet got or applied for the subsidy. It is certainly new to them in a new Parliament. It is absolutely clear that that is within the Salisbury convention. Clearly we will disagree on this. I argue that we are in dangerous territory and that the Salisbury convention should apply.

I omitted to do so earlier because I wanted to finish on the Salisbury convention, but I will say something on affordability and steel. The noble Baroness made some relevant points on that. She said that electricity was a small part of their costs; it is not for all steel companies. If it is a blast furnace it is 3% of the costs; if it is an arc furnace, as it is for Celsa in Cardiff South, a Labour-held constituency, it is 12% of the cost. That is not insignificant. That point was made forcefully at the steel summit by many Labour MPs, as well as by other people. We have to take that on board. It is a complex issue. It is not just about electricity costs, but they certainly are a valid consideration from some steel companies.

With that, there clearly is a disagreement but, as I said, this is dangerous territory for the House. In my belief and the Government’s belief, this is firmly protected by the Salisbury convention and I urge noble Lords to reject the amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

Before the Minister sits down—I asked a specific question and I would like to encourage an answer. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, spoke of those who incurred expenditure under the March 2017 deadline who had, I think he said, a legitimate expectation that their investment could be carried through. Is the Minister saying that they do not have a legitimate expectation any more and that that can be changed by the legislation, or is it simply that the Government are legislating in the face of what might be regarded as a legitimate expectation?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

It is neither of those, if I may say so. We have had an engagement exercise with industry, the devolved Administrations and others to look at those who would be prejudiced by the proposal as set out on 18 June. In consequence of that, the grace period that we have put forward—which I think we have agreed to as it stands—is that if you have a planning permission, a grid connection and land rights as at 18 June, you have additional time. We have also moved in relation to the investment freeze condition and appeals to try to achieve that. So, following the engagement exercise launched after the decision which was taken on 18 June, we have catered for those with a legitimate expectation of being able to deploy in this regard.

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[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, once again very briefly, could the Minister also make some comment in his response about what the cost to the consumer will be of electricity which is generated by plant under contracts under the capacity mechanism?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on Amendment 78V and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for introducing it. We missed each other late last night to discuss this amendment, but I am grateful that she rang before breakfast this morning so that we could discuss it then. That is how seriously we both take our jobs. Again, I am grateful to the noble Baroness because otherwise it would have taken us on the blind side that the amendment was coming up today. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said in relation to this issue and for confirming that she will not push it to a vote. The comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, are right, but as framed there would be difficulties with the amendment anyway.

Perhaps I may say something about the purpose of the capacity market for the benefit of the House and then say something about the particular issue that has been raised. The purpose of the capacity market is to ensure security of electricity supply by providing all forms of capacity with the right incentives to be on the system and to deliver energy when it is needed. The first capacity market auction was successfully concluded in December 2014, contracting 49.3 gigawatts of capacity at a clearing price of £19.40 per kilowatt—and with that I have addressed the particular and very valid point raised by the right reverend Prelate. The outcome was great news for consumers, as fierce competition between participants drives down costs. The results will ensure that enough of our existing capacity will remain open at the end of the decade, as well as unlocking new investment.

I accept that there is an issue about emissions. Other government policies that were referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, including the emissions performance standard and the carbon price floor, limit potential emissions from thermal plant for larger producers in keeping with our aims of decarbonising the power sector. For example, the emissions performance standard for larger generators limits carbon emissions to around half of that produced by unabated coal. The carbon price floor obviously provides an incentive for investment in low-carbon electricity generation. I accept that, as things stand, small generators are not covered by that. The department is aware of the issue, but we believe that the EPS represents the best way of looking at the smallest generators, perhaps within the review cycle for the EPS rather than in the context of the capacity market alone because that clearly seeks to ensure that the capacity we need is delivered. I am happy to discuss this further outside the Chamber. It is worth recognising that, at least at present, most of the small generators in the capacity market run for only a limited number of hours per year, but I appreciate that there is no guarantee on that. However, I recognise that this is an issue.

I turn now to what might have been the point that, given his background, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, was referring to. There is not a state aid issue here. The capacity market state aid clearance is based on the current design of the mechanism, including the concept of technology neutrality, so accepting the amendment in its present form would have required state aid renotification, which as we know typically takes nine months or longer. That would have introduced uncertainty into the market and would have caused problems. But I am happy to continue a discussion on how to tackle what is a very real issue, and I thank the noble Baroness for her comments.

Energy: Onshore Wind

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Bishop of Chester

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that contribution. The interests of consumers and those of people who are concerned about the impact on the landscape have certainly informed the discussions. It is important that we take people with us on energy policy. He is right to cite the example of Lincoln Cathedral, which I think was once the tallest building in the world. However, the reason this is being done is not solely because it was part of the manifesto. It was in the manifesto because we are already delivering in terms of people’s needs in relation to onshore wind; it is already delivering significantly. The costs next year will be more than £1 billion in terms of what will be paid out in subsidy, and that will be going on for the lifetime of the programme. It is not as if onshore wind will not be a significant part of the mix, and of course there is the importance of other renewables. But yes, we have very much in mind the interests of people throughout the country who are concerned about the growth of onshore wind.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, if and when the new subsidies are ended, we will have 6,000 or 7,000 subsidised windmills. Can the Minister remind the House for how long the subsidies for these thousands of wind turbines are going to be guaranteed, and what the total cost will be over their lifetime? If the figures are not available, could the Minister write to me?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. I do not have the specific figure, but it is certainly billions of pounds, and the typical lifetime of a contract or a subsidy in relation to a wind farm is 20 years. But I would remind the House that this is for an important purpose. It is in order that we can reach our decarbonisation targets, and we are determined to do that by getting the mix right. This is about balancing the interests of the consumer and keeping bills down—which I think we would all want to ensure as much as possible—with the interests of ensuring that we have clean and secure energy. As I say, it is about getting the mix right, and I believe we have done that.