European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Tunnicliffe

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I accept that they are not the same thing. Perhaps by definition, Clause 9 relates to the withdrawal agreement, but that will be made by the United Kingdom Government. As the member state, it will be the United Kingdom Government who will sign the withdrawal agreement. There may—indeed, I am sure there will—be issues about ensuring that our law is compliant with the withdrawal agreement in all parts of the United Kingdom, in both the Westminster Parliament and the devolved Administrations. That is why we need it.

Noble Lords will be aware that it is quite normal to use delegated powers in such ways, including Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, which amends the devolution statutes to ensure that our legislation reflects the most accurate position in law and ultimately to ensure that we fulfil our international obligations. To give an example, the Treaty of Lisbon (Changes in Terminology) Order 2011 was made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act. It amended the Scotland Act, the Northern Ireland Act and the Government of Wales Act to give effect to new terminology relating to the EU. This is not the stuff of power grabs, believe me; it is the stuff of ensuring that day-to-day business can continue. Leaving the EU requires changes of a similar technical nature across the settlements, and we will need the flexibility to ensure that these important Acts operate effectively once we have left the EU. That is precisely what these powers enable.

Amendments 148 and 149 also speak to the concurrent powers for United Kingdom Ministers and would apply a requirement for devolved Ministers to consent to their use. We will consider this matter fully in the next group, but I am very willing to engage with noble Lords on the subject that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised when she talked about the use of the word “normally”. “Normally” is not subject to definition by government, it is subject to definition in law, but of course we would normally expect the consent of devolved Administrations in conducting discussions on these matters. A lot of this, believe me, is down to ensuring good housekeeping and common sense. If we have the prospect, by agreement, of dealing with this just once in one United Kingdom Parliament rather than repeating it in all the different legislatures of the country, that makes sense.

I shall try to deal quickly with the points raised by noble Lords, I hope in more or less the order in which they were raised. Forgive me if I miss points; I will try to pick them up by letter and will place a copy in the Library for those who did not participate in the debate.

First, I restate my thanks to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for tabling the amendment and ably and cogently setting out what it was about. I followed precisely what he said and sympathise with a lot of it. I suspect we may disagree on some of the detail and emphasis, but I am certainly willing to engage with the issues he has raised. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for bringing forward the Northern Ireland dimension. She asked who we will engage with. Sadly, we cannot engage with an Executive at the moment, but we continue to put all our energies into ensuring that we have an Executive in place to engage with. Whatever our differences with them will be, that is far a more desirable form of government and governance of Northern Ireland.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, spoke next, and spoke also on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. As I said, we will look at Clause 11 later. If I am not mistaken, we sought and obtained agreement from both Scotland and Wales to publish that. There are deep dives, as the parlance has it, going on in all framework areas—I think we are now down to 24 from 27. Full and active engagement on that is the way forward, and significant work is being done.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, spoke next. He has massive experience and knowledge of this area, so I listened very carefully to what he was saying. I appreciated our earlier chat. I can confirm that these framework areas are frozen, as it were, until we can get down to the substance in the deep dives of the things that need to be devolved and the things that need to be held in the centre. I think there is common agreement, including in Scotland, on the principle that some things will have to be retained in the centre. If we are seeking to pull something back—I do not see that that will happen, but if we were, through some of these other Acts—of course we would need LCMs just as we are seeking an LCM on this legislation. That is, again, a reassurance that I am able to give.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for the engagement that we have had on this. I can confirm that we are seeking an LCM, as I believe she knows, on this legislation in both Scotland and Wales, and on the other legislation—on agriculture and so on—insofar as this involves potentially encroaching on devolved areas. Of course, once again we would seek to have long and deep discussions, as we are doing. If it were to impinge on devolved areas, we would fairly clearly need that LCM.

I hope I have answered on deficiencies; all of those will be covered in the Bill. An example of an international obligation would be something perhaps not mundane, but, for example, complying with a new law of the sea if there was a new law of the sea convention. That may be something we would seek to amend. It would be that sort of issue.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked for full details of the amendments. She will see that we have published the Clause 11 amendments. The amendments to Clause 7 will be tabled on Report. I have given that undertaking. They are not yet ready for reasons I have sought to explain but they will be there for Report stage. I hope she will take some comfort from that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, spoke with great experience of the devolved areas, and I thank her for her contribution about how things have moved and how there are still rough edges. I share some of the frustration of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, because we tried to solve some of this together on asbestos. This is not a power grab. Nobody knows where that power lies. Indeed, there is perhaps a little bit of, “You do it”, “No, you do it”. It is just lack of clarity rather than a power grab, but I hope we will be able to solve and settle it before too long.

I think I have dealt with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who is not in his place at the moment, on the Good Friday agreement. It will not involve any amendments in relation to that agreement, to which we are totally wedded, but there will be some amendments on Report in relation to Northern Ireland and some of the deficiencies that need correcting, in just the same way as in relation to Scotland and Wales. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, once again for the clarity of what he said. I agree that we should look, perhaps through conversation and discussion, to move this forward. Like my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I have grave doubts. We will not be moving to a position of consent but I would certainly like to see us talking and consulting, and I am very happy to engage with that. To move to a position of consent in non-devolved areas would be dangerous to the union.

I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern once again for what he said. I totally agree: if we think this is difficult, just wait until we get to Clause 11. I think this is relatively straightforward and I can see a way through this where we would have broad agreement. As the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, indicated, Clause 11 will be a much more difficult area.

The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, knows so much about this area, through both his political and legal experience. I agree with him that it is important to move to a position where, for things related to devolved areas, there is a convention that has grown up and is widely accepted about consent. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for his clarity. I agree with him about the importance of transparency and coming up with some common sense; I think that is essentially what he was saying and I do not disagree at all.

We have probably reached agreement on Clause 7. In relation to Clauses 8 and 9, I am very happy to look at the points that were made and discuss them further ahead of Report stage. In the meantime, I ask the noble and learned Lord and the noble Baroness to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I believe the amendment under debate is that of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie.

Housing and Planning Act 2016 (Compulsory Purchase) (Corresponding Amendments) Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Tunnicliffe

Monday 12th December 2016 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations may look rather complex but I hope that the Committee will agree that the principle behind them is straightforward.

Before I launch into the detail, it may help noble Lords if I briefly describe the scenario that has led to these draft regulations being brought forward. Most compulsory purchase orders are made under the procedures in the Acquisition of Land Act 1981. Amendments were made to that Act in the Housing and Planning Act 2016. Corresponding amendments therefore need to be made to Acts which contain compulsory purchase powers that do not rely on the Acquisition of Land Act. That is the purpose of these regulations.

Now for the detail. Schedule 15 to the Housing and Planning Act 2016 amends the Acquisition of Land Act 1981 to require an acquiring authority to include additional information within the notice of confirmation of a compulsory purchase order. This notice is issued under that Act to those with an interest in the relevant land. The acquiring authority must provide information about the effects of the Compulsory Purchase (Vesting Declarations) Act 1981. They must also invite any person who would be entitled to claim compensation, if a general vesting declaration were executed, to give the authority information about the person’s name, address and interest in land.

These amendments were required because the preliminary notice to a general vesting declaration, which previously contained this information, will be abolished by the repeal of Section 3 of the vesting declarations Act by paragraph 5 of Schedule 15 to the 2016 Act. The reason for abolishing the preliminary notice is that it did not commit the acquiring authority to execute a general vesting declaration, so it was of little use as a warning. The notice period for entry has been increased to three months, as has the notice of entry, which follows a notice to treat—the other means of entry and taking possession.

The changes introduced by Schedule 15 will apply to the vast majority of compulsory purchase orders, as they are made using the procedure in the Acquisition of Land Act 1981. There are, however, a number of enabling Acts—the ones listed in the schedule to the draft regulations—where the procedure for obtaining compulsory purchase powers is not governed by the Acquisition of Land Act. This means that we must amend those Acts accordingly; otherwise owners and occupiers of land in orders made under those Acts will be denied the information about the Compulsory Purchase (Vesting Declarations) Act that others would receive. This is what these draft regulations do.

If any Member of the Committee is concerned that corresponding amendments regulations are a rather unusual way of proceeding, I hope that they will be reassured that this procedure is precedented. The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 also amended the Acquisition of Land Act 1981, so corresponding amendments were then made in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 (Corresponding Amendments) Order 2007.

Members of the Committee may ask themselves why these amendments were not included in the Bill. These types of amendments take some time to research and prepare. They also could not be finalised until the lead changes in Schedule 15 had been definitely settled. Instead of rushing technical drafting late in the Bill’s stages, we decided that it would be better to draft the amendments separately with a view to bringing the regulations into force at the same time as the substantive provisions. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, for outlining the regulations before us. At the outset, I should say that we are supportive of the changes to the compulsory purchase brought in by the Housing and Planning Act 2016. We welcome the consolidation of notice periods for general vesting declarations. This is a complicated area of law and the simplification of regulations is very much welcomed. It would be helpful if the Minister explained carefully to the Grand Committee why these changes are being introduced through secondary legislation procedures rather than through primary legislation, when we considered the Housing and Planning Bill earlier this year. It appears to me that the department was very unprepared when we considered that legislation and that is the real reason for the changes being made in regulations rather than in primary legislation, where they should have been.

It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm whether I am correct that the regulations are concerned with the general vesting declaration procedure and, specifically, the preliminary notice period before making a general vesting declaration. They seek to ensure that Acts of Parliament that contain compulsory purchase powers are not subject to the Compulsory Purchase (Vesting Declarations) Act, but are still made subject to that Act. My understanding is that the regulations make provision for the amendments made by Schedule 15 to the 2016 Act as well, so that they also apply to the earlier Act.

Further, I welcome the standardising of the minimum notice period for entry to three months, rather than the confusing 14 or 28 days that existed before, and that the regulations state that clear information must be set out in the confirmation notice for a CPO issued under Section 15 of the Compulsory Purchase (Vesting Declarations) Act. These are fairly technical amendments and these changes will bring greater clarity, which is to be welcomed.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for his general support for the regulations. I can confirm that they indeed consolidate notice periods and standardise entry periods. As he correctly said, they also relate to the general vesting declaration procedure.

I repeat that we have brought these technical amendments forward in secondary legislation at this stage because, first, although it is a technical issue, it is non-controversial, as the noble Lord has just indicated, and, secondly, we did not have the certainty of knowing what the provision would be in general terms in relation to the Acquisition of Land Act until the Housing and Planning Act had passed. They relate to things such as the Pipe-lines Act 1962, the Harbours Act 1964 and the Forestry Act 1967. It is not that they are not important but they are, as it were, minority provisions in relation to the great bulk of compulsory purchase legislation. That is why it has been done in this way and, as I said, there was a precedent for this under the previous Government in 2007. With that, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Greece

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Tunnicliffe

Thursday 12th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, according to the PA:

“David Cameron will tell his Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras he needs to end the stand-off with the eurozone amid fears the uncertainty could damage the British economy”.

Is that real? The Prime Minister of Greece has a crisis on his hands and has really big problems. Does he need to be lectured about the problems of the British economy? Surely our Prime Minister should be going there with constructive ideas to help Greece, not to lecture it on getting its own things sorted out. Is that not another example of the attitude to Europe—standing on the sidelines, wringing hands?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

First, I would not believe everything you see as speculation. The Prime Minister is going there with the very clear message that a settlement on this issue is in the best interests of the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe. The noble Lord talks of the problems of the British economy; we would have problems if we were back in the old days when we had the worst financial crisis since World War II and the largest deficit since then. I am not sure what problems he is referring to. The fastest growth of any major country in the G7? The highest employment rate ever? The lowest inflation or lowest mortgage rates? That is a success story.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Tunnicliffe

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may invite the government Front Bench to point out the protocol for the Motion that the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

As I understand it, it is not normally debated but it is quite in order to do so.