Self-employment Income Support Scheme
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, we have temporarily relaxed the application of the minimum income floor for all self-employed universal credit claimants affected by Covid-19. A drop in earnings will therefore be directly reflected in a claimant’s award, enabling them to follow the PHE guidance on social distancing. Claimants may also benefit from other changes, including the £20 increase in the universal credit standard allowance and the increases to local housing allowance.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)
I declare an interest as a trustee of the Lowry and One Dance UK. We are very concerned about the ability of freelancers to access adequate funds until support is made available in June. Our all-important creative industries are a sector hit particularly hard; one-third of people in this sector are freelance and some are ineligible for any of the Government’s schemes. Will the Minister consider a rapid interim fund or grant to bridge the income gap for those affected and, as the Federation of Entertainment Unions suggests, a new freelance worker income support scheme for those falling through the cracks?
Lord Callanan
I apologise to the noble Baroness; she was breaking up so I did not quite catch all of her question. However, I think she was talking about the creative industries. Work in these industries is treated in the same way for universal credit as all other forms of self-employed work. We are aware that many who are self-employed—particularly those whose earnings are seasonal and often fluctuate from month to month—need to budget and plan for this; universal credit takes account of that by varying its payments from month to month.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My noble friend the Minister will be aware of people moving from PAYE employment, perhaps to start a new business or to become self-employed. These people have become caught between two stools. Does the Minister realise that the thresholds for universal credit mean that savings that people may have accumulated to start their new business will in large measure have to be spent before they can qualify for universal credit? Will he be prepared to review the threshold operation in these unique circumstances?
Lord Callanan
I understand the point that my noble friend is making, but a key principle is that universal credit should go only to people who do not have assets available to meet their basic needs. It is important to protect the incentive to save. However, any assets used wholly or mainly for the purpose of a claimant’s trade or profession are disregarded indefinitely while the business is still operating. Any money that may be in their account to be used for business purposes will also not be counted towards the capital allowance.
Baroness Fookes (Con)
Can my noble friend the Minister reassure those who may be concerned about whether universal credit payments made will have to be repaid once the new scheme is up and running?
Lord Callanan
DWP officials are in discussion with those in other government departments about the detail of these varied schemes and grants. However, we expect to treat these SEISS payments as employed earnings, and to take them into account when they are received; therefore we do not expect to adjust previous awards.
Baroness Coussins (CB)
My Lords, will the Government consider setting up a dedicated interim hardship fund to provide immediate cash support to people who could be waiting until June for their payments from the income support scheme and are not eligible to claim universal credit? I declare my interest as president of the Money Advice Trust, the charity that runs Business Debtline. It has heard from many self-employed people in this situation who are struggling to make ends meet; some are not eligible for the income support scheme at all.
Lord Callanan
The Government are focusing on support measures that can be implemented as quickly as possible. Using existing frameworks for those who need additional support is, in our view, the quickest and most effective way to do this during the Covid-19 outbreak. The DWP is continuing to work with the Treasury and other government departments to monitor the evolving economic and labour market situation to identify the most effective way to help people in need as quickly as possible.
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill (Lab)
Many freelance journalists are ineligible for the government schemes and the requirements exclude those in their first year of being self-employed. Does the Minister agree that it is unfair to penalise those just starting out in their careers or forced into self-employment through redundancy and casualisation?
Lord Callanan
Of course, we want to help as many people as possible under these schemes, and we keep them constantly under review. All these various schemes have been implemented as quickly as possible, so we will certainly reflect closely on what the noble Baroness has said.
Baroness Janke (LD)
What advice would the Minister give to a self-employed decorator who has been out of work since the lockdown started and who applied for universal credit? After being made to feel, in his words, a “scrounging piece of scum”, he and his wife have found that, after rent and council tax, they have just £210 a month to pay for food and all other expenses.
Lord Callanan
It is difficult to comment on the case that the noble Baroness cites without seeing all the details of the claimant responsible, but the SEIS scheme will offer millions of self-employed individuals direct cash grants. It covers 95% of people who receive the majority of their income from self-employment, and we have quickly and effectively introduced over £6.5 billion-worth of measures to benefit those facing the most severe financial disruption.
Lord Farmer (Con)
My Lords, it is pleasing that the Government have relaxed the minimum income floor for the self-employed. Can my noble friend the Minister clarify any further measures that have been made to help self-employed claimants at this time?
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for his question. Yes, as well as relaxing the minimum income floor, we have increased the standard rate of universal credit and working tax credit for this year by around £1,000. We have increased the local housing allowance, which is worth something like £600 in people’s pockets. We have also redeployed staff to the front line and therefore temporarily suspended the recovery of some government debts such as tax credits, benefit overpayments and social fund loans. We stand ready to take additional measures if they are required.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
I declare an interest as a freelance series producer working for Netflix and the Smithsonian Channel. The current SEISS creates considerable concern for large numbers of freelancers who operate under a personal services company and are therefore not covered. Is it not possible for HMRC to distinguish between PSC-derived dividends and other dividend income, which could be verified through an online HMRC portal?
Lord Callanan
The Chancellor has referred to this difficulty a number of times. We are satisfied that the system as it currently operates is the best one at the moment, but as I said in response to an earlier question, we keep all these things constantly under review and will reflect on what the noble Viscount has said.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister at least accept that many self-employed and freelance people are falling through the net because of the criteria that the Government have set? Will he reconsider his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins? The Money Advice Trust is getting so many self-employed people calling in who are desperate because they do not meet the criteria. It is surely an excellent idea to have a hardship fund administered by local authorities to help them out.
Lord Callanan
We already have a number of schemes in place. The SEISS will benefit something like 95% of all claimants, but of course such schemes have been introduced at pace. Officials are still working on it, and I and the department will reflect closely on what the noble Lord has said. We want to ensure that as many people as possible are helped during these difficult times.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their unprecedented rescue schemes for the self-employed and freelancers. I understand that one may be paid out before June—within May. Can my noble friend outline any other measures planned for the employed and the self-employed which are under consideration?
Lord Callanan
I referred to some additional measures in the answer that I gave to my noble friend Lord Empey earlier. We have been taking a number of other measures; I can tell my noble friend that, yesterday, HMRC began contacting customers who are eligible for the SEISS. It remains on target to be delivered in early June but, if we possibly can, we will of course get the payments out earlier because we know that they are urgently required in many situations.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has, I fear, elapsed, and we now come to the third Oral Question.
Covid-19: British Business Bank
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
The Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme and the Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme have been developed to provide financial support for UK businesses that have been impacted by the coronavirus outbreak. There will be no limit on the number or aggregate value of loans that lenders can issue through these schemes. As of 29 April, over 25,000 loans, worth over £4 billion, have been provided to businesses under the two schemes.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, this money is needed urgently, yet many businesses are encountering problems in getting access to it. For example, long-standing and profitable firms whose cash flow was perfect before the Covid-19 outbreak now apply to banks and are told that they cannot have the money because they do not have the cash flow. This is a Catch-22 situation. It is supposed to be emergency assistance. The Treasury issues guidance but on the grounds the banks are dragging their heels. Unless that culture is changed, good businesses will go to the wall. What are the Government doing to lean on the banks to change this very damaging culture?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his question; he makes a good point. We have received lots of helpful feedback from stakeholders on how the schemes have been working. He will be aware that, on Monday, the Chancellor announced further steps to ensure that lenders have the confidence they need to process these applications. We have removed the forward-looking viability test and the per-lender portfolio cap, to give lenders the full 80% guarantee across all CBILS lending. We keep the scheme under constant monitoring and are available for any future changes.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, although business is very grateful for the help that the Government are giving, including the new bounce-back loans, which are 100% guaranteed up to £50,000, the Minister said that just £4 billion has been given to 25,000 companies in the six weeks since the scheme launched. Will the Government consider guaranteeing up to £500,000 for 100% of the banks, as the Swiss and the Germans have? This will ensure that the money gets through to the companies that need the money now to survive this crisis and then the revival and restart. Will he also confirm that the portfolio guarantee limit of 60% per bank has been removed, and that it is 80% or 100% back to back?
Lord Callanan
The new bounce-back loan scheme that the noble Lord referred to will ensure that the smallest businesses can access loans from £2,000 to up to £50,000 in a matter of just days, capped at 25% of the firm’s turnover. On his second point, we have also removed the portfolio cap for loans under the CBIL scheme, meaning that lenders can access the full 80% guarantee for each loan.
Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
My Lords, I too have spoken to a large number of businesses that are trying to get CBILS loans. The reality is that they are just not able to get them; they are being turned down. Will the Government consider two suggestions: first, that the government guarantee is for the first 80% of the loan, not pro-rata but for the initial amount; and, secondly, that the current restrictions on EIS and ECT investments in businesses are relaxed, despite EU restrictions, and the set-off rates against income tax are increased? I appreciate that to do this we would need urgent legislative change, but it is required.
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for raising those points. The 80% guarantee on lending under the CBIL scheme is already extremely generous and we have not seen a lot of evidence to suggest that this is acting as a significant barrier for lenders. On his suggestions, we are of course subject to the EU state aid rules. Even though we have left the EU, under the terms of the withdrawal agreement we still have to apply those rules.
Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, so that lessons can be learned and in the spirit of more transparency, will the Government ensure that financial help given under these schemes will be clearly disclosed and not buried in business accounts, so that in time we can assess what was achieved in supporting jobs, businesses and indeed the community?
Lord Callanan
I fully support the noble Lord in his desire for transparency. It is important that companies disclose this information so that we can see how successful the schemes have been.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, will the Government take up the proposal made by my colleague Ed Davey to set up a website for lenders and products in the various support schemes along the lines of Compare the Market, so that firms can quickly identify which lenders would be willing to lend to them? They can then approach that institution and get money much more quickly.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Baroness for that suggestion, but the British Business Bank’s finance hub already provides full details on CBILS and our other loan guarantee schemes, including all details of accredited lenders. In addition, businesses may use one of the BBB’s designated online referral platforms, which may help them to find finance providers offering the product they are looking for.
Viscount Trenchard (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interests as shown in the register. Under the British Business Bank’s revised eligibility guidelines, start-up companies whose losses have been financed by share- holders through long-term loans are ruled ineligible under EU state aid rules, which define companies whose accumulated losses exceed half their paid-in capital as “undertakings in difficulty”. That is the case even when they turn profitable and their accounts have been signed off as going concerns. Does the Minister not agree that the BBB should allow lenders to apply more flexible eligibility criteria to companies carrying long-term debt, which is in effect a form of capital, and that the EU definition of many such companies is misleading and inappropriate?
Lord Callanan
We are constantly reviewing the loan guarantee schemes to make sure that as many businesses as possible can benefit from them. That is why we made the changes that I referred to earlier in the week. As I said to an earlier questioner, although the UK has left the EU, under the terms of the withdrawal agreement we are still subject to EU state aid rules.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that once the current, very welcome, liquidity initiatives to soften the supply shock to the UK economy have done their work, it will be necessary, as in other economic downturns, to bring forward plans to stimulate demand and to deal with rising unemployment? Will the Minister confirm that such plans are being developed and can he share with us the likely timing?
Lord Callanan
Of course, at the moment we are focused on delivering the support that businesses need now, but we will continue to monitor and review all the schemes, now and in the future, to make sure that they are working effectively and helping businesses to get the support they need.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
Is the Minister aware of reports that some banks are requiring companies to freeze all loans and leasing with other financing institutions before agreeing loans, and that some are charging for personal contact despite arrangement fees being picked up the Government? Is such conditionality and charging allowed?
Lord Callanan
The noble Baroness makes a good point, but we have provided a generous guarantee scheme and we fully expect that all businesses will benefit from such schemes and that banks pass on the savings to borrowers. We have removed the forward-looking viability test, as I said earlier, but we constantly monitor all these schemes and seek to improve them where possible.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, to what extent have the Government involved our fantastic fintech sector and would they consider setting aside a certain percentage of funds for fintechs to distribute, bringing much-needed pace and efficiency to the process?
Lord Callanan
My noble friend makes a very good point—fintech has a significant role to play. Funding Circle, as he will be aware, was recently added as a CBILS accredited lender. Along with other alternative finance providers, it will help even more businesses to access the finance they need at this difficult time.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
Will my noble friend comment on the interest rate charged on the loans and say whether there is a cap on that rate? Are penalties allowed for early repayment, which would obviously be detrimental to the future of firms? Also, following on from the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley, is there any intention to help firms by providing finance for equity investment rather than debt only?
Lord Callanan
The business interruption payment means that the borrower benefits from no fees or interest in the first 12 months. Interest rates are then charged at the discretion of each lender. However, under the terms of the state aid agreement, the Government fully expect that the benefits of the guarantee under CBILS is reflected in the interest charged by the lender both during the period of the business interruption payment and thereafter, for the remainder of the facility.
Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
Good afternoon, my Lords. SAGE is not a membership body. Only the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser and the Chief Medical Officer can talk on behalf of SAGE. The Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, who chairs SAGE, said yesterday morning that he would publish the names of participants who were happy to be named in the coming days. This will allow for full transparency on who is contributing to the scientific advice being given to the Government.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I understood the Minister to say that we would indeed know the attendance and membership of SAGE—although I have to say that the technology was defeating me slightly. I am sure that he agrees that getting through this pandemic depends on transparency and trust: trust between people and the Government, and between government and opposition parties; transparency in explaining why decisions to lock down are necessary, why we need to stay in lockdown and, when appropriate, how the Government plan to ease restrictions. Will the Government publish the scientific advice on which their decisions are based? How does the Minister propose that public trust in the independence of SAGE should be restored after the last few days of speculation?
Lord Callanan
My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Baroness about transparency. I can give her a commitment that the minutes of the SAGE meetings will be published at the end of the pandemic in line with normal procedure. The Chief Scientific Adviser has agreed that the names of those participants who wish to be named will be published in the coming days.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, almost to the day, 34 years ago the Chernobyl nuclear disaster kicked off. In retrospect, the Soviet expert scientific committee was shown to be slow to react, driven by political apparatchiks rather than scientists. We saw the same in Wuhan. We are told by the newspapers that, of the 23 members of SAGE, 13 are paid advisers. Does the Minister agree that, to get the best advice, scientific committees such as SAGE should be left to independent scientists and should not include political advisers?
Lord Callanan
I agree. As I said in my Answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, SAGE is not a membership body. The number of participants varies from meeting to meeting. There have been over 100 participants in all of the 29 meetings that have taken place on the Covid pandemic. It is up to the Chief Scientific Adviser and the Chief Medical Officer to invite the appropriate academics and advisers to each meeting. The number and names of participants vary from meeting to meeting.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that science is a matter of doubt, not certainty, and that it is therefore extremely important that the Government understand the way in which scientists have reached their conclusions, just as it is important that scientists understand in detail the way that the Government are thinking?
Lord Callanan
I agree with my noble friend that transparency in the process is important in helping to maintain the public’s trust and to grow understanding of the disease, while also helping to explain how the advice to the Government is being formed during this difficult time.
Viscount Waverley (CB)
On the one hand, the relaying of professional opinions—and, importantly, how those opinions have been arrived at—to decision-makers via trusted channels that have immediate access does, I believe, have merit. However, will the Government dispel any doubts that crucial considerations by those professionals are not in any way interfered with, influenced or diluted for political expediency, and that the distinction between observation and participation is being strictly adhered to?
Lord Callanan
SAGE is an apolitical body. It helps the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser to fulfil his role to ensure that the Government have access to the best possible science advice in a rapid and timely manner. As I said earlier, the participants at SAGE depend on the nature of the emergency, but it typically includes leading experts from within government and leading specialists from academia and industry.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, on the “Today” programme this morning, a Government Minister was asked why, in trumpeting the number of items of PPE equipment that he claimed had been delivered to the front line, a pair of gloves was counted as two items. He responded robotically with the mantra, “We are following the scientific advice.” I cannot believe that SAGE has opined on pairs of gloves, but this demonstrates that Ministers are using SAGE as a sort of human shield. That makes it all the more important that SAGE and its discussions are as transparent as possible. Will the noble Lord tell us whether the Government will bring forward the publication of a full note of the discussions of each meeting, ideally within 24 hours of the meeting finishing? If not, will he tell us why this is impossible?
Lord Callanan
I agree with the noble Lord that transparency, including on the evidence informing the views of SAGE, is important in helping to maintain the public’s trust and helping to grow understanding of the disease. As I said earlier, and as is normal procedure except in cases of national security, the minutes of SAGE will be published at the end of the pandemic.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, the Government have said that they are following the science, but SAGE does not include people from three very relevant sciences: public health, social science and molecular virology. Why not? Does the Prime Minister read the full minutes of SAGE? If not, who briefs him? Is it the Chief Medical Officer or is it Dominic Cummings, whose understanding of the deliberations may be very different?
Lord Callanan
As I said earlier, SAGE does not have a specific membership. The people attending SAGE vary depending on the subjects under discussion; something like 100 participants in total can be called on. BEIS holds a central list of appropriate experts in the different sciences, academia and industry. They are brought into particular meetings when their expertise is required, and that is the call of the Chief Medical Officer and the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser.
Lord Krebs (CB)
My Lords, as the Minister will be aware, the process of providing scientific advice is set out in the Government’s chief scientist guidelines. Three key principles of these guidelines are: an open and transparent approach; a full acknowledgement of uncertainty; and to draw on a wide range of expert advice. What is the Minister’s assessment of how well these guidelines are being applied during the Covid-19 epidemic?
Lord Callanan
The Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser is confident that the role of SAGE is clear, that the business is conducted in an appropriately transparent and open manner, that the group is scientifically rigorous —having, as I said, more than 100 scientists ultimately feeding into it—and that it is totally independent of political interference.
Lord Hain (Lab)
Is the Minister aware of the criticism of SAGE’s composition from Professor Anthony Costello, a former director of WHO? As he points out, it does not include front-line experts on the pandemic, such as those in public health, primary care and intensive care. If it had done, maybe SAGE would have recommended to the Government community testing and contact tracing of the kind that has been very successful in other countries and that we simply have not implemented either on the scale needed or early enough.
Lord Callanan
The committee includes many of the experts in all those fields. They are brought in, as recommended by the Chief Scientific Adviser, when their expertise in particular fields is required. There is a large, centrally held list of experts in all the appropriate fields. Of course, SAGE meets on other issues than Covid. On the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser, the appropriate experts are brought in to advise the Government when that is required.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
We cannot hear the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, so we will move on.
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill (Lab)
Today, the media reported—[Interruption.]
Lord Callanan
Sorry, can the noble Baroness please repeat her question? I do not know whether there is a problem with my connection but I could not quite hear her.
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill
Today, the media reported that face coverings will now be recommended for the public, yet they were ruled out last week by SAGE. This raises the question of why advice continues to change constantly.
Lord Callanan
The noble Baroness should really direct that question to the Chief Scientific Adviser. This is a changeable pandemic. The science is changing and is being updated. Scientists will respond to the advice as necessary. Of course, the politics are driven by that scientific advice. She should not necessarily criticise the scientists if, in the light of new information, they decide that a new approach is needed. We should be responsive to that and thank them for their help.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
Did I hear the voice of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, during the previous question?
Lord Marlesford (Con)
You did. I want to comment on the question about Dominic Cummings. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that anyone who has worked in No. 10 knows that the better informed the Prime Minister’s personal staff can be on background policy decisions, the more use they are to the Prime Minister?
Lord Callanan
I totally agree. It is entirely right that No. 10 advisers—and, indeed, advisers and officials from other government departments—attend, to understand better the scientific debate and the decisions that then need to be taken. Surely we should all welcome a proper understanding of the science helping to drive the ultimate political decisions.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: Business Interruption Loans
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, we are constantly reviewing the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme to make sure that businesses can access loans quickly and easily. This includes looking at what other countries are doing in order to inform our own scheme’s design. Changes that we have made to eligibility tests mean that even more UK businesses are able to apply to the CBILS and we are working with the British Business Bank and lenders to ensure that we are doing what we can to speed up lending. As of 15 April, 6,020 loans, worth a total of £1.1 billion, have been given out to SMEs. We expect to see this increase substantially when weekly figures are published tomorrow.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register. Given that there are more than 5 million SMEs in this country and fewer than 1% have formal applications being considered or approved under the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme, amounting to just over £2 billion, how many businesses do the Government expect to fail as a result of the lockdown? Given the Chancellor’s promise to “do whatever it takes” to see the UK through this crisis, why is he rejecting the advice from the Governor of the Bank of England, the Bank’s chief economist, three former Chancellors, a former Bank governor and experienced bankers to re-engineer the CBILS to provide a 100% guarantee to ensure the speedy and efficient transfer of cash to desperate businesses?
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for his question. Of course, the issue of 100% guarantees has been raised by a number of other contributors. It is something that we are keeping under review. However, we think that the structure of the scheme at the moment is appropriate to its function. We do not believe that it is right to put all the cost of these loans directly on to taxpayers. Banks should have some involvement in those loans. As I say, we are keeping the scheme under review.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are to be congratulated on the scale of—and, indeed, the welcome adaptations to be made to—the CBILS, but other countries seem to be disbursing more money more quickly to their struggling SMEs. In addition to the point made already about the increase needed to guarantee 100% of loans, will the Government also think of insisting, in the interests of transparency, that the British Business Bank provide details of what loans have been delivered by the 47 accredited lenders?
Lord Callanan
It is important to remember that not all SMEs will want debt finance. There is a wide range of different support schemes available to businesses, including the job retention scheme and various local authority grants. We will be looking to publish, in the interests of transparency, the full range of offers that have been made to business in due course.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, in congratulating BEIS, the Treasury and HMRC on the work that they done but, looking at the point in a different way, of those 47 accredited lenders, only the banks have the liquidity to lend at scale. Those banks are generally sticking to their current customers and, today, only six banks are offering CBILS loans to new customers. This is a really important issue. Furthermore, many are not lending below £25,000; about 90% of applications are pitched at that level and below. I was pleased that the Minister said that this was a work in progress. Can he confirm that further modifications are now under consideration and also undertake to ensure that the lack of access for new customers and the exclusion of lower-value applicants are addressed really quickly?
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord makes a very good point. As I have said, we have already introduced a number of technical changes to the scheme—obviously it was introduced very rapidly. We are keeping all aspects of it under review. The one that he has mentioned is important; we are looking at bringing in new lenders as soon as possible, including Funding Circle, which specialises in smaller loans for companies such as those he talks about. To answer his question: yes, we are keeping this under review, we are seeking to get new lenders accredited as quickly as possible, and we are keeping all other aspects of the scheme under review as well.
Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con)
My Lords, no one can doubt the Government’s commitment to bridging and helping SMEs bridge these particular unprecedented circumstances but, to follow on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, what are the Government doing to work closely with the British Business Bank and encourage it to dramatically widen the circle of lenders and, in particular, to embrace the UK’s fintech sector, which can offer so much in these circumstances?
Lord Callanan
My noble friend makes a very good point. As I said in response to an earlier question, we are looking to expand the pool of lenders as quickly as possible and at Funding Circle. We are working closely with the British Business Bank to make sure that all aspects of the SME market are serviced. The BBB has put in place substantial additional resource to assist with processing applications from new lenders as quickly as possible. On 11 April four new lenders were accredited, and we are looking to get the circle expanded as quickly as possible.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
As the Minister said, many businesses do not want to rely on debt or are unable to do so. Some of them are small businesses, such as an independent café whose owner I have been talking to in Sheffield. She had all-risks business insurance. She thought that she was covered for business disruption yet has found that the insurance company refuses to pay. This seems a widespread, almost universal, problem and there seems to be a particular issue around the definition of physical damage and whether Covid-19 is included in it. A couple of US states are taking action to ensure that businesses are paid out. What action are the Government planning to make sure that people with all-risks insurance, in particular, get the cover they reasonably thought they had?
Lord Callanan
We are aware of the issue that the noble Baroness raises. Typical insurance policies offer cover against business interruption due to specific or notifiable diseases listed in the policy. An optional extension was available in many policies to cover pandemics, but unfortunately the majority of businesses did not choose to take up that option. We do not believe that it is right or feasible to require insurers to pay out retrospectively against a risk that was not covered in their original policy, but there are a number of other support packages available to those businesses at this difficult time.
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)
I welcome the match funding which has been made available to our most innovative start-ups through the Future Fund, but can the Minister clarify how the scheme is going to operate? For example, will companies have a reasonable veto over to whom these loans could be sold on? Investors and executives will have an eye on their cap table, and will private investor capital lent alongside the Government funding qualify for EIS relief?
Lord Callanan
My noble friend asked two good questions. We are aware of her first point about vetoes, and are considering it closely as we work out the further details of the scheme. As regards her second point, private investor capital lent alongside the government capital will not qualify for EIS relief.
Viscount Trenchard (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. I regret that the Government’s intention to rescue sound businesses whose income has suddenly and completely dried up through the provision of CBILS loans has been less effective than intended as a result of the 20% personal guarantee requirement of some lenders, as pointed out by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. Does the Minister agree that a reduction of the personal guarantee requirement to 10% might make a considerable difference to the conversion rate of loan applications to lifelines extended?
Lord Callanan
We have made some changes to the scheme so that no personal guarantees are permitted for loans of below £250,000. For loans above that level, lenders are permitted, at their discretion, to require personal guarantees for up to 20% of the remaining loan value. They are never permitted to use directors’ primary personal residences as security, and of course lenders may turn to personal guarantees only post the recovery of business assets. That is a balanced approach which protects CBILS borrowers but, like many other aspects of these schemes, this is something that we will keep under constant review.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, that concludes the Virtual Proceedings on Oral Questions. We managed to get everybody in on that last Question; I thank noble Lords for keeping their questions short. Virtual Proceedings will resume at 12.15 pm for the Private Notice Question.
Horizon Accounting System
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord McNicol of West Kilbride
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the judgment in Bates v Post Office [2019] EWHC 3408 on 16 December 2019, what steps they are taking to ensure that the directors responsible for the Horizon Accounting System are held to account.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the Post Office board members who took the original decision on the Horizon case are no longer in post. While this is not a matter for BEIS, my officials have drawn the Horizon case and its implications to the attention of their counterparts in the Department of Health and Social Care, which oversees appointments to the boards of NHS trusts.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
I thank the Minister for that Answer. In the debates we have had in this House on Horizon and the Post Office case, across all sides of the House we have been shocked when we have started to get into the detail of what happened and the implications for individuals’ lives. Some of those stories are quite harrowing, so I welcome the Government’s recent announcement that they have committed to an independent review. When will a chair be announced for the review? Will Her Majesty’s Government consult on the terms of the review? What is the timeline for the review to conclude? Finally, when will the framework document between BEIS, UKGI and the Post Office be published?
Lord Callanan
On the noble Lord’s last point, I believe it was published this morning and is on GOV.UK; I will send him a link so that he can access that. With regard to the review, I am afraid I cannot yet give him a time on that. We are looking for an independent chair at the moment and finalising the terms of the inquiry. I will let him have more information as soon as I have it.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, probably one of the most shocking things is the amount of damage done to individual lives, made more so by the Post Office’s refusal to admit even the possibility that something had gone wrong. Can we give general guidance about when an institution should start to think, “Have we done something wrong with what we have put in place?” How will that be institutionalised or made a fundamental part of all management structures in future? That is probably the worst bit of this entire process.
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord makes a very good point. Everybody can make mistakes—we have to accept that things go wrong—but the refusal to admit that a mistake had been made and the dogged determination over many years, pursuing individuals who in retrospect had done nothing wrong, is one of the most disgraceful aspects of this affair. I am confident that the new management of the Post Office has learned the lessons—the hard way. How we reflect that in other management structures is something that all organisations should look at.
Covid-19: Financial Markets
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Bates
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to address short-selling on financial markets of shares in companies based in the United Kingdom impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, short selling is a legitimate investment technique that contributes to orderly and open markets, supporting many consumers. As the recent Financial Conduct Authority statement makes clear, short selling is not responsible for recent market falls, and there has been a decrease in its activity in recent days. We continue to monitor activity in UK markets. It is our view that there should be a high bar for the FCA to impose a short-selling ban.
Lord Bates (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that Answer and personally thank him for all that he and his department are doing at this time to support British business. However, can he understand the anger and concern felt by many? At a time when the British Government and British taxpayer are mounting an unprecedented collective national effort to stand together with businesses and save jobs, a small number of hedge funds are cashing in on the crisis by short selling stock in struggling businesses, pulling the financial rug from under their feet and those of their employees, and betting on the British Government and taxpayer to pick up the pieces. Can my noble friend confirm that short selling positions have tripled in London over the past week? Will he make it clear to those hedge funds that their actions may at present be legal but are far from moral at this time? Will he echo calls from the Governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, for those responsible to stop, and if they do not, will he urge the regulator to use the existing powers to ban the practice for the duration of the crisis, as other jurisdictions have done?
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for his comments but taking short and long positions allows for the hedging of risks, and short selling can therefore benefit a wide range of investors, not just hedge funds, by helping them to manage the risk in their portfolios, particularly when the market is volatile. Many of these investors are ordinary investors, including pension funds for employees of companies and local government. However, I understand my noble friend’s point, and the regulators are closely monitoring activity. I cannot comment on the figures that he quoted about the extent of short selling in recent days but overall, the FCA’s reporting data shows that aggregate net short selling activity reported to the FCA is low as a percentage of total market activity and has in fact decreased over successive recent days.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register as chair of National Trading Standards and of the Fundraising Regulator for charities. The Minister just responded in quite strange ways to the profiteering by some hedge funds. Would he also like to comment on the profiteering that has taken place, with many retailers jacking up the prices of commodities that currently appear to be in short supply? I am sure he is also aware that many outrageous and unscrupulous scammers are going round, preying on all sorts of people, including some who are very elderly, by purporting to be offering Covid-19 cures or testing, and there are even people going around claiming to collect money for Covid-19-related charities which do not exist. What powers and extra support will the Government give to stamp down on all those practices?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his question. He is right to draw attention to the profiteering from a small number of retailers. We are aware of that and are looking urgently at what legal powers and frameworks are in place in order for us to do something about it. We will not hesitate to take any action that is required. With regard to his second point, I am afraid that, sad to say, a small number of unscrupulous and callous individuals will always seek to take advantage of any crisis.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I think we are all very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, for tabling this question. The Prime Minister’s comments at Prime Minister’s Questions were welcome; he said that the Government are considering further legislative proposals to address the very point about profiteering. The gaming of the financial services sector is often hidden from the public eye but is just as insidious as those people who seek to make profit out of a national emergency. Perhaps the figures that the Minister referred to reflect the fact that a number of weeks ago the European Securities and Markets Authority limited the capacity for short selling, which included the UK, and the UK Financial Conduct Authority quite rightly banned the short selling of 140 Italian and Spanish stocks, aware that this is a considerable issue. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, referenced other countries: South Korea has banned short selling for six months and limited buy-backs, and Spain has banned them for a month. If they are able to take preparatory action, it is quite right that the UK does so as well. The Minister referred to what a high bar might be; this emergency is a high bar to take precautionary action to ensure that the very many families and households who will suffer this emergency for months and potentially years to come will not see those within the financial services sector profiteering from their pain.
Lord Callanan
A ban has already been imposed on the short selling of stocks because regulators in their own individual countries have imposed bans. A small number of European countries like the ones he mentioned have imposed bans on short selling, and of course the London authorities have then reflected that in our own regulation. Most of the major trading houses have not yet instituted bans, but this is something that we are looking at closely. The FCA has the powers to restrict and prohibit short selling if that is required. We are keeping this under constant review and there is no evidence that it has contributed to the fall in the market. Moreover, as I have said, the level of short selling over recent days has in fact been declining.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, referring to the question put by my noble friend Lord Harris, do the Government still have the statutory power to regulate prices?
Lord Callanan
There are competition issues involved in doing that, as the noble Lord will be well aware of, given his experience. We have some powers in certain sectors and at the moment we are looking at this within the existing framework of legislation.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I understand my noble friend’s words about wishing to maintain orderly markets. While we are traditionally a country that supports free markets, I too echo the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Bates and others around the House today that in the current circumstances, which are exceptional, there are serious concerns about the orderliness of the markets. Those concerns are not only about short selling but also program trading and algorithm trading. There has been evidence over the past few months that some operators in the market have been behaving unscrupulously because they have advance information that is just a few nanoseconds ahead of others, which has led to enormous profits. Will the department consider looking at the implications of this for UK pension funds, which are currently struggling in the market environment that we are facing during this emergency, and will it consider whether some other measures might be necessary?
Lord Callanan
I know of the close interest that my noble friend takes in pension funds, so she will be aware that many of them also take advantage of taking both short and long positions to allow for the hedging of risk. However, I can certainly assure her that we continue to closely monitor market activity, including short selling activity, and we are constantly evaluating our approach to ensure that it is the right one for consumers. Further, if it is required, we will not hesitate to take action.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, as the Minister and other noble Lords have said, these are exceptional circumstances and matters are moving very fast. However, the noble Lord seems to be unaware of the figures indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Bates. I know that it is the responsibility of the FCA to consider any measures that are necessary on short selling, but it is also a matter for the Treasury to consult. Can he advise us on just how frequently, in this fast-changing situation, we are liaising with the FCA so that we actually do take action when it is needed—and fast?
Lord Callanan
Perhaps it would be helpful to the House if I set out what powers the FCA has in this area. Under the short selling regulation, the Financial Conduct Authority has a range of powers which require the holders of net short positions in the issued share capital of a company to make notifications once the thresholds have been breached. It also provides the FCA with the power to suspend short selling or limit transactions where there are significant falls in prices. As I have said, this is being monitored constantly and as yet there is no evidence that it has contributed to the fall in market prices. It forms a relatively small proportion of trading activity at the moment and when studies were made after the financial crisis, again there was no evidence that short selling had contributed to the overall fall in the markets. Nevertheless, it is a situation that we are keeping under constant review and I know that the FCA is watching market activity very closely.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
The Government obviously have no responsibility for what is happening in the American markets, but are they watching closely the reports of the short-selling activities in the financial sector, which are having an even more devastating effect than in this country? Are there any lessons that we should learn from the experience in America?
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord makes a good point. I am sure that the FCA and the regulators are closely watching what is happening in all markets. As I mentioned, when short selling, certainly in European markets, is banned in certain exchanges, we also limit trading in those countries. So, yes, it is something that we monitor closely.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
The noble Lord will be aware that his right honourable friend the Prime Minister constantly evokes comparisons with the leadership shown during the Second World War. During that war, profiteering was considered a very serious matter, yet we have just heard that nothing is going to happen very quickly on short selling. Given that the Minister dismissed the activities of scammers preying on vulnerable people simply as something that happens all the time, and given that the aim is to try to get everyone in this country to work together and to support each other, does he not think that the Government should take firmer action?
Lord Callanan
I certainly did not dismiss that activity; I said that it was appalling and callous, and obviously I wish that people would not indulge in it. However, criminal law and sanctions exist for activities of this sort. We have some powers in this area, and the department’s officials are looking at this matter at the moment. If wrongdoing and illegal activity are proven, we will not hesitate to take the strongest possible action. I view this activity as appalling and I apologise to the noble Lord if I did not give that impression in my earlier answer.
Lord Oates (LD)
My Lords, on the subject of irresponsible behaviour, perhaps I may refer to an issue that has been raised with me by medical personnel working long shifts. When they get home and try to sleep, they find that other people—perhaps because they are at home—are playing loud music, and this causes them real difficulty. Will the Minister join me in asking everybody to act responsibly and to understand that a lot of people are working shifts at the moment and need their sleep?
Lord Callanan
We are getting off the subject a little—I never cease to be surprised by noble Lords’ ingenuity in moving the subject on to their favourite topic of the day—but I certainly agree with the noble Lord. This is an important issue. With many people, particularly in big cities, living in flats that are currently all occupied, often with young families, it is incumbent on all of us to be good neighbours. We need to bear in mind the limitations and difficulties posed for shift workers and those with young children and so on, who in many cases are finding it difficult to cope at home at the moment.
Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) Regulations 2020
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) Regulations 2020.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) Regulations 2020, which were laid before the House on 10 March 2020, be approved.
This statutory instrument supports the implementation of a new entitlement to paid leave for employees who lose a child under the age of 18 or whose baby is stillborn. The main regulations, which contain the main provisions of the policy, were approved by resolution of both Houses on 5 March, and are set to apply to child deaths and stillbirths on or after 6 April. Together, the package of Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay Regulations will ensure that there is a statutory minimum provision in place which all working parents can rely on in the event of a child death or stillbirth. They will also establish a clear baseline of support for employers when managing bereavement in the workplace.
Specifically, the Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020 give all employees a right to a minimum of two weeks off work in the event of their child’s death or stillbirth, regardless of how long they have worked for that employer. The Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020 implement a new statutory payment for parents taking time away from work following their bereavement, subject to the same eligibility criteria as all other statutory family leave payments. The SI under consideration today plays an important role in supporting the implementation of this policy, and ensuring that it achieves its objectives.
The draft Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) Regulations 2020 amend other pieces of secondary legislation to take account of the introduction of the new entitlement to parental bereavement leave and pay. This SI makes it clear how certain other rights or benefits should be calculated when an employee takes parental bereavement leave or statutory parental bereavement pay. The Government’s intention is that parental bereavement leave and pay are treated consistently with other family-related statutory leave and pay entitlements when calculating entitlement to certain other rights or benefits. This is beneficial to employers who are expecting this new entitlement to align with the existing framework of family-related leave and pay entitlements.
The SI also sends a clear message that parental bereavement is to be afforded the same status and importance as other types of leave typically associated with the birth or adoption of a child. This supports the policy objective to encourage employers to acknowledge the importance and value of recognising bereavement in the workplace and providing adequate support for parents in those sad circumstances. Without this SI, we would be calling into question the status of this new entitlement when compared with other existing entitlements to statutory leave and pay, and we would create confusion for employers and their employees.
As I have said before, while the purpose of the parental bereavement leave and pay policy is to set a statutory minimum, this should in no way stop employers from going further where they can. The Government encourage all employers to support their employees in whatever way they are able to. It is my hope that this new statutory provision will act as a catalyst for improving workplace bereavement support across the board.
Before I finish, I again pay tribute to all noble Lords who have lent their support to this legislation throughout its course, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, for his integral role in getting this on the statute book.
In conclusion, this SI supports an important package of legislation to give bereaved parents a right to take time away from work to grieve in the tragic event that their child dies or their baby is stillborn. It plays an important role in ensuring that the policy as a whole can achieve its objectives by ensuring consistency between parental bereavement leave and pay, and other entitlements to family-related leave and pay, in the calculation of other rights and benefits. This is a fair and helpful outcome for employees and their employers, and I commend these regulations to the Committee.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I thank the Minister for that introduction. I am not sure whether I am the understudy or the understudy’s understudy, but it has been instructive reading a number of SIs over the weekend and doing my homework. I admit I was shocked to learn that, from government estimates, only two-thirds of businesses provide parental bereavement leave currently, particularly when the last figures I saw, from 2017, were that 7,600 babies and children under 18 died. This is not insignificant. The Minister rightly paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, but this also derived from a Private Member’s Bill by Kevin Hollinrake MP and noble Lords should credit him for that.
I very much welcome what the Minister has said and recognise that this is the third of the three statutory instruments needed to put this in place, but I ask the Minister why it has taken two years from passing the original Bill to get this much-needed help. The Minister hoped that this would lead to certain consequences; I hope there will be a communications exercise with business, particularly small businesses, about this duty. I also hope that there will be a full review, not overengineered, of how this is being put in place, after a period—I do not know how long that should be, but maybe a year or shorter—to see whether businesses are really complying. Otherwise, this hard-fought new right, which we very much welcome, will not be worth as much as has been hoped.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
My Lords, I echo and share the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, especially in thanking both the MP and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for their work to get this on the statute book. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, touched on the numbers affected. Before I continue, I declare a non-financial interest as a patron of the children’s charity, Jigsaw4u, which supports the flip of this—children whose parents have died. It is within the same area, so I note that.
This side also supports the intention and wording of this SI. It is good to see legislation or rights being brought in from day one, something we were able to do starting with the Employment Rights Act in the 1990s. Most issues have been touched on, so there is no need to repeat them. This is just to say that we welcome and support both the intention and language of this SI.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank both the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for their contributions to this brief debate. This is not a matter of controversy, but I thank them for supporting its introduction, nevertheless. When we debated the main regulations to implement parental bereavement leave and pay a few weeks ago, the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, who played such a crucial role in this—together with Members from the other place, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—remarked that this legislation is an example of where the democratic and parliamentary process has worked well to effect a change in the law.
For noble Lords who do not know, this legislation is a result of a tireless campaign by Lucy Herd, whose son, Jack, died 10 years ago. This explains why it has been given the title “Jack’s law”, which has been used interchangeably with the much more complex formal title “parental bereavement leave and pay” in the media.
This Government are committed to supporting working parents and making this country the best place both to work and grow a business. Jack’s law is an important step towards achieving this. Together with the other regulations that have already been debated, this SI will provide bereaved parents with the space to grieve following the death or stillbirth of their child, and will send the right signal to employers and colleagues about the value of compassion and support at such a tragic time.
I reiterate that these regulations represent a statutory baseline, which should be considered the bare minimum that an employee who has suffered this tragic loss should expect from their employer. As always, the Government encourage all employers to go further than statutory minima, where they are able to, and to act compassionately and considerately towards their staff. Most employers already provide exemplary bereavement support to their staff. However, some still do not, so I hope this new legislation not only ensures minimum protection for all employees, but also leads to better workplace support for bereavement across the board.
Turning to the contributions, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked me why this has taken two years. It has been complex to get the policy right. There have been a number of challenges to departmental resources, not to mention the incredible amount of work preparing for something that did not happen, which was a no-deal Brexit. It was always the intention to get the regulations in place to apply from April 2020.
Covid-19: Employment Support
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I will now repeat in the form of a Statement the answer to an Urgent Question made in the House of Commons by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, John Glen. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, this is an uncertain time for our country, but the Government are clear that they will do whatever it takes to protect our people and businesses from the coronavirus pandemic. On Tuesday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out further steps in the Government’s economic response, building on the initial response he outlined in the Budget last week. This included standing behind businesses small and large, with an unprecedented package of government-backed and guaranteed loans to support businesses to get through this crisis. I have been working very closely with him and the banks and they are very clear about their responsibility to make these work.
The Government have made available an initial £330 billion of guarantees—equivalent to 15% of our GDP. That means that any business which needs cash to pay salaries will be able to access a government-backed loan, on attractive terms. The Government will do whatever it takes to support our economy through this crisis and stand ready to provide further support where necessary.
As the Chancellor announced, we will go much further to support people’s financial security, working with trade unions and business groups. Following his appearance before the Treasury Select Committee yesterday afternoon, the Chancellor spoke to the trade unions and he will today be meeting the TUC, the CBI, the BCC and the FSB—I will not spell out those acronyms. This will be with a view to urgently developing new forms of employment support to help protect people’s jobs and incomes through this period.
I am sure that you will appreciate that these are unprecedented times. The Chancellor has said he will look at further steps to help protect jobs and incomes, and he will announce further details in due course.”
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We welcome the Government’s commitment to do whatever it takes during this crisis, and especially the comments about not just standing behind business but standing shoulder to shoulder with businesses and workers and engaging with the trade unions and the TUC. I have only two questions for the Minister. First, when will the new forms of employment support be introduced? Secondly, are the Government considering paying the majority of wages to provide the job guarantees? As Gordon Brown said earlier today, if families do not have income protection, there will be a lot of other consequences. People may try to work when they are sick, putting themselves at risk, so their health becomes a public health issue.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his questions and for the responsible attitude that the Opposition are taking to this emergency. I am afraid that I am unable to give him a timescale at the moment; I can say only that all government departments are working as urgently as they possibly can on these matters. As soon as we have any further information on schemes that will be introduced, the Chancellor will make the appropriate announcement.
Baroness Grender (LD)
I wish to associate myself with the thanks for the Statement. The difficulty is that the people are being laid off now, and those who have no cash are the ones we worry about most. Have the Government considered paying two-thirds of salaries, like the Governments of Denmark and France, in order to ensure that people have temporary relief? Will the Government consider the very interesting Resolution Foundation suggestion of using a model of statutory maternity pay? The welcome measures yesterday for private renters will not be enough. I regret the lack of scrutiny of that in this House today. Will the Government consider looking at the local housing allowance, given that there is such a shortfall at the moment? Perhaps something could be done about that, because it reaches directly into the homes that we are most concerned about. Finally, what will happen to freelancers, from creative industries right through to cleaners? They are not in business and are not employed but self-employed. Often they do not even have the status where the Government will find them.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. Their extent reveals the number of different sectors of the economy that we will need to look at. As she says, they range from sole traders to small businesses and to the very largest companies. We are looking at a comprehensive package. There are a number of different international models that have been introduced. A number of think tanks in the UK have also produced suggestions. They are all being examined at the moment. We are guided by three principles: it has to be a comprehensive package; it has to be co-ordinated; and it has to be coherent. The noble Baroness will understand that we need to look at these things properly. It is no good having a scheme that comes into effect in six months’ time. It needs to work now, it needs to be available and it needs to be deliverable. We are doing all those things, and we will make the appropriate announcements as soon as we possibly can. I understand people’s natural frustration and their wish for urgent action.
Lord Balfe (Con)
I wish to make a very minor but important point. At the moment, if a company is insolvent, the workers do not get paid. They can have worked for several weeks up to the date of insolvency but when insolvency comes, their pay is basically at the mercy of the receiver, or whoever is winding up the company. In the Statement the Minister said that any business that needs cash to pay salaries will be able to access a government-backed loan. In other words, a company that cannot pay salaries but is not becoming insolvent will apparently be able to access it. I know that in its submission to the Government the TUC has asked for a relaxation of the rules on insolvent companies, and I realise that it will probably be beyond the Minister’s pay grade to agree that that will be done, but will he agree to reflect to the Government that this point has been raised and possibly to write to let us know what has been decided? This is a small category, but companies are going to go bankrupt and workers may be denied their wages, while others in companies that have not gone bankrupt will be able to access a loan. It is a small point, but it is very important.
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord speaks with great authority on these matters. This might be a small point, but I agree with him that it is important. Actually, within my ministerial portfolio I have responsibility for the Insolvency Service, although not for the Treasury and the guarantees that it will provide. I take on board my noble friend’s point and will make sure that it is conveyed to the Chancellor. My noble friend’s intervention is welcome.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
I declare an interest as a freelance series producer working at Raw TV making content for CNN. The Minister was asked about coverage for the self-employed and freelancers who have been made unemployed and he said that he was looking at that and wanted it done properly. However, these people have no prospect of work at the moment. Their income has suddenly stopped, and their bills have not. Is it not possible very quickly to put in place an emergency fund, as has happened in other countries, and at the very least to extend statutory sick pay to all workers affected by Covid-19? Surely that could be done very quickly.
Lord Callanan
I think, again, the noble Lord makes a very good point. We have of course already announced extensions to statutory sick pay and the qualifying period. His points are well made and echo the points made earlier about freelancers. All the different sectors of the economy need to be looked at. We will do whatever it takes. We will put in place a comprehensive package and will announce details of that as soon as we are able to.
Lord Hendy (Lab)
My Lords, all legal categories of worker will need income protection in this crisis, but can the Minister say whether the income protection proposals will cover, in the mind of the Government, five particular situations? First, there are those who will be off sick with coronavirus: clearly, they will be entitled to statutory sick pay, even though it is a pittance at £94.25 a week—a figure that will have to be increased. Secondly, there are those who are self-isolating and are not sick—at least not yet—and will not be entitled to statutory sick pay because they are not sick. Thirdly, there will be those who are off work to care for others, including children shut out of school, who will never be entitled to statutory sick pay but who do need income protection. Fourthly, there will be those who lose their jobs because of the loss of trade by reason of Covid-19 or following advice from Public Health England or the Government. I remind the Minister that the Financial Times this morning said that over 200,000 people in restaurants and catering have already lost their jobs—have been laid off—since mid-February. I noted that the figure did not include air transport or the holiday trade; I saw in the newspaper yesterday that British Airways had served an HR1, and it has 30,000 employees. Income protection must cover those who have lost or may yet lose their jobs. Fifthly, will it cover those who are redeployed from existing work to do emergency work, social care work or other work, not just volunteers?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his question, which illustrates the complexity of the problem, all the different factors that need to be taken into consideration, and how there needs to be a cross-government response, across a number of departments and obviously backed by the Treasury with comprehensive financing. The answer to his question is: yes, all these matters are being looked at. We are looking at various international options and proposals and we will hopefully have something to announce very soon.
Baroness Warsi (Con)
Can my noble friend inform the House whether much broader thinking is now being done by government about employees who are affected by the coronavirus crisis, not just regarding health issues for those self-isolating or who have symptoms, but those who are now affected because they have children at home or because the people they work for do not have the orders and they are therefore short-working, and those who are not contractually protected—people on zero-hours contracts? Would it be easier for the Government simply to respond to people’s needs because they are impacted by coronavirus, rather than breaking them down into specific categories?
Lord Callanan
Similarly to the previous question, my noble friend’s question reflects the complexities of the issue and why a comprehensive response is required. We are working on that; we of course have universal credit, the social security system—the welfare system—for people to fall back on, but there are numerous different aspects to it and different sectors of the economy that will require a response. We are working on it urgently and cross-departmentally; the whole of government is focused on this and we will come back to both Houses as soon as we possibly can.
Climate Change: COP 26 Arrangements
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Scottish Government about the arrangements for COP26.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the UK Government are committed to working closely with the Scottish Government and with operational delivery partners, including Police Scotland and Glasgow City Council, to ensure the successful delivery of COP 26 in Glasgow. The UK Government are committed to working with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to deliver an ambitious, successful summit for the whole of the United Kingdom.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
I am grateful to the Minister, but does he agree with me that the UK Government need to provide a lead if COP 26 is to be successful? With the Secretary of State being given responsibility for this, rather than a particular person with sole responsibility, how is he going to manage this with his other responsibilities? When I looked to see who is the Minister for climate change, I found that it is not only the noble Lord who is replying to my Question but the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith. Does that not mean that there are going to be differences and clashes in Government? How are we going to achieve a coherent programme for reducing our carbon emissions right across government and right across the United Kingdom?
Lord Callanan
I think it demonstrates the importance with which we see the subject that a number of different Ministers are responsible and are involved in working towards policy to this end. The noble Lord can be reassured that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is fully committed to making COP a success. We do not underestimate the challenge that this involves; it is going to be a huge gathering, requiring immense amounts of logistical and operational planning. We are committed to doing that. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is working hard to deliver that, and we are talking to the Scottish Government about it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, could my noble friend ensure that one of the things on the agenda for this climate change conference in Glasgow, which is so important, is whether it is sustainable to have an independent Scotland based on an economy which relies on an oil price of $100 a barrel?
Lord Callanan
What I like about my noble friend is that he is always tenacious in getting his subjects on to the agenda. Perhaps in this instance it would be best if I did not comment directly on the substance of his question.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, we welcome the Minister’s commitment to a successful COP 26. As he knows, success at the conference is predicated on intergovernmental discussions beforehand. It is only through shuttle diplomacy between the key players at the conference that anything meaningful can come out of it. Can the Minister tell us what level of engagement is currently under way with the key players around the world, particularly the United States, because without its signing up to the COP 26 conclusions it will be a very poor result?
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord is quite correct that a huge amount of international engagement will be required. We are looking to every country to put forward its nationally determined contributions this year at COP, including the United States. We have been talking to it about that. Obviously, the current coronavirus problem presents a challenge for international engagement, but we continue to do our best in the circumstances.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, further to the Minister’s answer to that question, given that the pre-meeting in Bonn for COP 26 has been cancelled and our co-chair, Italy, is facing the problems that it is, what steps are the Government taking to make sure that the necessary level of intergovernmental discussion is going on to make COP a success? What plans are there to involve parliamentarians from all countries involved in the run-up to the meeting and in the meeting itself?
Lord Callanan
The noble Baroness is right to point out that it is proving a challenge at the moment; the Bonn meeting has been cancelled but there are still several months to go before COP. Intense diplomacy and conversations are taking place by telephone, videoconference et cetera. We hope that some of the meetings can be reinstated. Of course it is vital to involve parliamentarians; many have attended previous COPs, and I am sure many will attend this one as well.
Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)
My Lords, it is vital that COP 26 is a success. After all, the future of the planet is at stake. The host nation plays a vital role, including talking to other participating countries in advance of the meeting to come to an agreement. Does the Minister share my concern that it does not bode well for the diplomatic skills of the UK Government when they are finding it hard to come to a reasonable relationship with the Scottish Government over this?
Lord Callanan
Of course we have to have extensive discussions with the Scottish Government. Those are taking place; we are discussing budgets with them at the moment. An exchange of letters has just taken place between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the First Minister of Scotland. Discussions are well advanced. Both sides are committed to delivering a successful COP.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that an important part of the agenda for COP 26 is the migration of environmentally displaced persons as a result of climate change? Can he acknowledge that that will be an important part of the agenda that this country will host?
Lord Callanan
Of course my noble friend is quite right to point out that this is an important consequence of climate change. It is one of many different subjects that will need to be discussed both before and during the COP.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that my grandson, aged 22, spoke at COP 25. What young people will be involved in COP 26?
Lord Callanan
I do not know about the particular circumstances of the noble and learned Baroness’s grandson, but of course young people will need to be involved. An extensive dialogue with a range of civil society organisations is taking place, and it will be vital to hear their contribution, with others.
Green Economy
Lord Callanan Excerpts(4 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for securing this important debate and for the excellent, well-informed contributions from many other Members. It is clear that your Lordships’ House has great expertise in these matters; that was very well reflected in the debate today.
There is no doubt that climate change is one of the greatest global challenges that we face and that action is urgently needed in the UK and across the world. It is worth repeating that the UK was the first major economy to legislate for a net-zero target, which will end our contribution to climate change. I am pleased to welcome the support for the net-zero target from the Church, as outlined by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol.
We are looking to position the UK as a world leader in low-carbon technologies, services and systems. The UK will capitalise on established strengths to provide new jobs and business growth opportunities from the many future export markets. We have a strong base to grow from. There are already over 460,000 jobs in low- carbon businesses—the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said 400,000, so I hope my figures are more accurate than hers—and their supply chains across the country. Low-carbon exports are already worth billions of pounds each year to our economy. We have world-leading strengths in key sectors such as green finance, offshore wind, nuclear energy, smart energy systems and electric vehicles.
We are also seeking to capitalise on the UK’s world-leading expertise in fields such as industrial biotechnology and synthetic biology, the platform technologies that underpin the bioeconomy. This represents the economic potential of harnessing the power of bioscience, producing innovative products, processes and services that rely on renewable biological resources instead of fossil-based alternatives.
As well as the economic benefits we can achieve through a green economy, we must also ensure that we maximise resource efficiency, to protect our environment and minimise biodiversity loss. The resources and waste strategy is an ambitious document that sets out how we will preserve our stock of material resources by minimising waste, promoting resource efficiency and moving towards a more circular economy. It combines actions we will take now with firm commitments for the coming years and gives a clear long-term policy direction in line with our 25-year environment plan.
Setting this in context, our clean growth strategy sets out our proposals for decarbonising all sectors of the UK economy through the decade. The UK is determined to continue to lead the world in tackling the scourge of climate change by cutting our emissions while supporting strong international action to help meet the goals of the Paris Agreement. During this year, ahead of COP 26, we will be setting out further details of our plans to decarbonise key sectors of our economy including transport, energy, buildings and our natural environment.
Many excellent points were made during the debate and a number of questions were posed. I will try to go through as many as possible and apologise to individual noble Lords if I do not get around to their point. In her excellent contribution, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked about the just transition—this point was also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. Clean growth offers the UK real opportunities and she is right to point out that the Treasury will be conducting a review into the costs of decarbonisation, including how to achieve this transition in a way that works for households, businesses and the public finances. Industrial clusters are one of our industrial strategy missions, reflecting the importance of strengthening our industrial base as we move to a net-zero economy.
The noble Baroness also asked about our nationally determined contribution. Increasing global ambition is key to closing the gap on meeting the temperature goals of the Paris Agreement. At the UN Climate Action Summit in September, the Prime Minister called on all countries to come forward with increased 2030 emissions reduction commitments. The UK will play its part and come forward with an increased NDC ahead of COP 26, in line with the global ambition cycle.
The noble Lord, Lord Oates, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, both raised the important subject of energy efficiency in buildings. We plan to publish a heat and buildings strategy later this year which will set out our immediate actions for reducing emissions from buildings. These include the deployment of energy-efficiency measures and low-carbon heating as part of an ambitious programme of work required to enable key strategic decisions on how we can achieve the mass transition to low-carbon heating. The future homes standard will require new-build homes to be future-proofed, with low-carbon heating and world-leading levels of energy efficiency by 2025.
We have also committed to consulting on phasing out the installation of fossil fuel heating systems in off-gas grid properties, accelerating the decarbonisation of our gas supplies by increasing the proportion of green gas in the grid. We will publish these consultations in due course.
The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked about the plan required to deliver the net zero target. In the run up to COP 26, we will bring forward ambitious plans across key sectors of the economy to meet our carbon budgets and net zero target, including an energy White Paper—I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, a date for that, but it will be published as soon as possible—a transport decarbonisation plan and a heat and buildings strategy. These plans will build on the strong frameworks we have established through our clean growth strategy.
The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, raised an important point on the contributions that local councils can make to net zero targets. The local energy programme supports local enterprise partnerships, local authorities and communities in England to play an important leading role in decarbonisation and clean growth. The programme was announced in 2017 as part of the clean growth strategy. Almost £20 million has been invested in the local energy programme to date and the programme has funded a range of measures designed to build local capacity and capability and encourage joined-up working between local areas, investors and central government. In addition, funding was provided to local enterprise partnerships in England to develop an energy strategy for their area.
The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked me a lot of questions, including on deforestation. We are committed to helping those countries and communities that will be most affected by climate change. The UK is doubling its international climate finance to £11.6 billion between 2021 and 2025 to help developing countries cut emissions, improve resilience and reduce deforestation.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and my noble friends Lord Howell, Lord Marland and Lord Selborne all raised the important subject of carbon capture and storage. It will be essential to meeting the UK’s net zero target. It can provide flexible, low-carbon power and decarbonise many of our polluting industrial processes, while also offering the option of negative emissions at scale. We are investing over £40 million in CCS innovation between 2016 and 2021, and I am delighted that the Chancellor yesterday announced our new CCS infrastructure fund, providing £800 million to establish CCS jobs in at least two industrial clusters, creating up to 6,000 jobs in the process.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, also raised the point about offshoring the UK’s emissions, which is an important subject. We are following the agreed international approach for estimating and reporting greenhouse gas emissions under the UN framework and the Kyoto Protocol. Nevertheless, emissions on a consumption basis—what we import—fell by 21% between 2007 and 2016.
My noble friend Lady Jenkin made a very well-received speech. There was, perhaps, a bit too much information on her underwear strategy, but apart from that, it was an excellent speech about how individuals can act to change their own behaviour. She raised an important point about food waste, and we are taking action to help consumers reduce theirs. Ben Elliot—our Food Surplus and Waste Champion—recently announced the first ever Food Waste Action Week. It will run from Monday 11 May, calling on households and businesses across the country to join forces to reduce food waste. I am sure she will want to make her contribution to that.
My noble friend also asked about clarity on recycling consistency. The Government are committed to making recycling easier for everyone. We know that many people want to recycle but are confused by the many symbols and policies in this area. The Environment Bill introduces legislation so that, from 2023, all collectors of waste will collect a core set of materials from all households, businesses and other organisations. That core set will be metal, plastics, paper and card, glass, food and garden waste.
On the subject of fast fashion, also raised by my noble friend Lady Jenkin, the Government recognise the huge environmental impact of clothing as well as the importance of affordable and quality clothing. The Government have supported a collaborative industry-led approach through the sustainable clothing action plan, which has more than 80 signatories and supporters from across the clothing supply chain, representing nearly 60% of all clothes sold in the UK by volume.
My noble friend, along with the noble Lord, Lord Browne, also raised the subject of behavioural change. We entirely recognise that delivering net zero will need action across the whole of society. It does not necessarily mean net zero across everything that we do, because we can offset many of our emissions through tree-planting, carbon capture and storage, but we recognise the importance of engaging people across the whole of the UK in what will be a year of climate action.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, asked whether our plans for continued oil and gas exploration are compatible with the net-zero goals. It is important to recognise that, as we transition to a low-carbon economy, there will continue to be a need for oil and gas, which are projected to still provide around two-thirds of our total primary energy demand in 2035. All scenarios proposed by the Committee on Climate Change setting out how we could meet our 2050 target include continuing demand for natural gas.
The subject of green finance was raised by a number of noble Lords, including the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol, the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, my noble friends Lord Gadhia and Lord Marland—the best of luck to him with his clean investment fund. We welcome the strong leadership that is provided in this field by the Church and the role of many institutional investors, which will be key as we build up to COP 26. In fact, only today, an industry-led group called the Pensions Climate Risk Industry Group, convened by the Department for Work and Pensions, produced regulations and published guidance on how pension scheme trustees can disclose their approach to climate risk in their portfolios. Delivering on that is a key promise in the green finance strategy.
My noble friend Lord Howell, with his immense experience in the energy industry, raised the important subject of hydrogen. This will be a key commitment of ours going forward; we are committed to exploring the development of hydrogen as a decarbonised energy carrier alongside electricity and many other decarbonised gases. We are already investing up to £121 million in hydrogen innovation, supporting a range of projects to explore the potential of low-carbon hydrogen for use in heating and transport, and the production of low-carbon hydrogen with CCUS and electrolysis technologies. We are considering our strategic approach to hydrogen and are conducting further stakeholder engagement, notably around building sustainable policy frameworks to support investment in low-carbon hydrogen production.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Does my noble friend agree that, if we can make greener our entire domestic gas supply, it would be a far better approach than attempting to tear out 15 million gas boilers from people’s homes?
Lord Callanan
Yes, I agree with my noble friend; hydrogen can of course provide a potential solution to that. I heard only the other day about investments that we are making with companies such as Worcester Bosch and Baxi to develop new boilers that are able to work on natural gas and can be easily converted with only one hour of service engineering to work on hydrogen in the future. Nevertheless, hydrogen is, at the moment, given existing technology, expensive and difficult to produce.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Suttie and Lady Jenkin, asked what we are doing about plastic waste. I am pleased to tell them that the UK is a world leader in tackling plastics and that we have committed to work towards all plastic packaging placed on the market being recyclable, reusable or compostable by 2025, and to eliminate avoidable plastic waste by 2042. The Government’s landmark resources and waste strategy sets out our plans to eliminate avoidable plastic waste over the lifetime of the 25-year plan.
I hesitate to referee the debate between the noble Baronesses, Lady Jenkin and Lady Jones, on Extinction Rebellion. I am sorry to tell the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that I am very much on the side of noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, on this. I witnessed at first hand the huge piles of disposable plastic waste that Extinction Rebellion left behind after its demonstrations. Before lecturing the rest of us on what we should be doing, it should act to put its own house in order first.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
Does the Minister accept that had they had time to clear away, they would have done so? I visited the site and they had recycling systems set up and they were extremely careful about rubbish. If they had had time, they would have removed it.
Lord Callanan
I thought that might prompt an intervention. No, I do not accept that. Even on the sites they vacated voluntarily, they still left behind piles of rubbish, which cost the local authority tens of thousands of pounds to remove. They are, of course, quite entitled, as everybody is, to demonstrate and make their point, but they are not entitled to bring the whole of London to a standstill while they are doing it.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
Does the Minister understand that we are in a climate emergency? This is bigger than Covid-19, bigger than any other emergency we have ever faced. Those people have actually put climate change on to the agenda here in the House in debates I have been part of. I have not even mentioned climate change: everybody else has mentioned it, so they have actually performed an incredibly important role within our society.
Lord Callanan
I am sorry, but I just do not agree with the noble Baroness. Climate change was on the agenda well before Extinction Rebellion decided to get involved in the subject. It has been a subject of cross-party agreement. It is not just something for this Government; Governments of the party opposite and the coalition Government were also on the ball with this, and legislation was put in place with cross-party agreement. Nobody doubts the scale of the problem; they do not need to tell us it is a problem; what we need are practical solutions that are deliverable in the normal political landscape. That is what we are working towards and what we are interested in giving contributions for, and, frankly, camping out in London for weeks on end does not change the fact that we need practical, deliverable solutions.
Lord Callanan
I am happy to continue this debate with the noble Baroness, but time is getting on. We will return to the subject. I should not have raised it in the first place.
Lord Callanan
It is fine: it is my fault for raising it. I should not have got involved in the debate, but I am happy to talk to the noble Baroness, for whom I have the greatest admiration, as she knows. I am sure that we will discuss it on plenty of other occasions.
The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, talked about the 2050 target and asked why Finland has a net-zero target of 2035 when ours is 2050. Our independent advisers, the Committee on Climate Change, made it clear in its report that it does not currently consider that it is credible for the UK to reach net-zero emissions earlier than 2050, and we have legislated in line with that advice.
The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, asked about plastic waste exports. We are committed to banning plastic waste exports to non-OECD countries and the Environment Bill includes a power to enable us to deliver this commitment. We will consult this year on the date by which this will achieved.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, raised the energy company obligation—we have discussed this subject with her before. I know that we have a different opinion on it, but we believe that energy efficiency will be key to reach net zero and we agree that the transition has to be fair. The energy company obligation is a key policy that, since 2013, has delivered more than 2.5 million measures in more than 2 million homes. This scheme is now entirely focused on low-income, vulnerable and fuel-poor households and funded to the tune of something like £640 million a year until 2022. I know that we have a different view about how it should be funded, but it is, in my view, a successful scheme.
The noble Lord, Lord Marland, talked about international climate finance. Since 2011, our international climate finance has helped 57 million people to cope with the effects of climate change, while reducing or avoiding 16 million tonnes of emissions.
I am sorry that I am out of time; I had a number of other points to refer to. If noble Lords will permit me, I will respond to them in writing—apart from an intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Browne.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Before he sits down, will he either address the question of pricing the risk of carbon capture and storage or agree to write to me about it?
Lord Callanan
It is an important subject, as I have said, and there is a lot of development in this area. I will write to the noble Lord with the details of pricing the risk, because it is a complicated subject.
It just remains for me to say that tackling climate change continues to be one of the Government’s highest priorities. We will continue to work with others, both domestically and internationally, to build on the excellent progress that we have already made to reach net zero. I thank noble Lords once again for some excellent contributions to this debate.