EU Council

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me wish the right hon. Gentleman—along with you, Mr Speaker—a very happy new year. Let me also apologise for interrupting what is clearly the longest reshuffle in history. We could have watched the entire run of “Star Wars” movies, but we still do not know who has been seduced to the dark side. There is absolutely no sign of a rebel alliance emerging either: I can see that.

The right hon. Gentleman had the temerity to say that this was a referendum that I did not want. This is a referendum that I put to the British people in a manifesto. It is odd to hear such talk from the right hon. Gentleman, who has a shadow Foreign Secretary whom he does not want.

The right hon. Gentleman asked a number of questions. Let me now answer them. He asked whether the Government would make a clear recommendation. Yes, we will: I said that very clearly in my statement. He asked whether the national Parliament measures were still in place. Yes, they are, and they received a warm reception from a number of other European countries. He asked about welfare benefits. Our four-year proposal remains on the table. I have said that I am very happy to look at alternatives, but I will not take my proposal off the table until I see something equally effective being put forward.

I would just note that at the last election, it was Labour policy to ask people coming to this country to live and work here for several years before claiming benefits. [Interruption.] Labour Members can all call out about what a great policy it was, but it has now been abandoned by their leader. Never mind how many Eagles we end up with; I think we have all worked out that they have an albatross at the head of their party. [Laughter.]

The right hon. Gentleman asked about refugees. I think he was right to praise the Royal Navy for the work that it does. As for funding, let me make it very clear that we believe the EU can do more, but the EU has a generous budget to which we are a significant contributor. In all our conversations we asked the EU to use its existing budget, knowing that countries like Britain have made huge contributions, outside the EU budget, to the excellent United Nations programmes. If only other EU countries were as generous to those programmes as we have been, we would ease the Syrian refugee crisis by a huge amount. As I said in my statement, we have contributed £1.12 billion.

The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we were signed up to the Syrian peace process. Yes, we are. We have been one of the leading players behind that process. There was a good meeting in New York in December, but more meetings will be needed to bring about the ceasefires and the political discussions that are necessary. I will keep the House updated on that, as will the Foreign Secretary.

The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we would take more migrants. I think that the 20,000 resettlement is the right number. I stress again that we have gone ahead and delivered what we said we would, which is in stark contrast to many other promises made by other countries. He asked about the issue of the 3,000 orphans. I said in the Syria debate that we would look seriously at that issue, but there are problems. Of course we can think about helping, but we must be careful to ensure that we are not removing people from their wider families. We need to look carefully at those who have tragically lost parents.

Finally, the right hon. Gentleman claimed that somehow we were isolated in Europe, when we are leading the debate on Syria, leading the debate on Libya and leading the debate on security, and I have to say that, after his visit to Brussels, when other Prime Ministers and Presidents were not asking about terrorism or migration or indeed the British negotiation, another question on their lips was, “What on earth has happened to the British Labour party?”

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister remain confident that he will obtain a full British opt-out from the ever-closer union commitment, which until recently—in recent years—has been the principal demand of Eurosceptics, who claim to see a threat to the future independence of this country if we stay in the EU? Now that some of our right hon. and hon. Friends are taking an unaccustomed interest in benefit rules, will he confirm that his proposal on the table for a four-year limitation is stimulating a discussion with other countries anxious to take away unnecessary draws to their countries of other EU nationals, to find a solution so that we have coming here only people who will work legally in a way that benefits the British economy?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes two very powerful points. First, the ever-closer union does matter, not purely as a symbolic issue, but because it does get used as an interpretation by the European Court and has been one of the things that people feel has driven something of a ratchet in terms of EU law, so it is vital that we are fully carved out of that. He is right as well about benefits. Of course this is a controversial issue in Europe, but other countries share our concerns. Indeed, some of the countries that people are leaving are also concerned about the potential hollowing out of their countries as so many young people in their 20s and 30s leave. My point is simple: Britain has benefited hugely from migration and we should continue to support migration and free movement, but the extra artificial draw that our in-work benefit systems can bring badly needs to be addressed.

Syria

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for paying tribute to my national security adviser, Mark Lyall Grant, who has been working hard to provide factual briefings, on a Privy Council basis, to parties across the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman is right that we require political agreement and Syria’s long-term reconstruction. My argument is not that I disagree, but that we also need to act now to help protect ourselves against the terrorism we have seen on the streets of Paris and elsewhere. He asked a technical question about how we are supporting the negotiation initiative in Vienna. Obviously, we are playing a full part, through the Foreign Secretary, but we are also helping to fund the work of the UN envoys trying to bring the parties together.

The right hon. Gentleman asked who were the troops on the ground. As I have explained, there are the Free Syrian Army and the Kurdish forces. That, of course, makes it a more complicated picture than Iraq, where there are the Iraq security forces, but we can help these forces to take and hold ground and to relieve suffering, as we have seen around Kobani and with the Yazidis. Important progress can be made. I was frank in my statement, however: of course, the true arrival of ground forces awaits a new Government in Syria. Having that partner is the best way to eradicate ISIL in the long-term, but again the question arises: can we wait for that to happen before we take some action that will degrade ISIL and its capabilities to do us harm?

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about Syria’s long-term reconstruction. As we debated yesterday on the autumn statement, we have one of the largest development budgets in the world, and I have already said we would be prepared to commit £1 billion to such reconstruction. I think the world would come together if there was a new Government in Syria, and the Syrian people, many of whom are currently outside their country and desperate to go home, would not be left wanting for support. They would get Britain’s support and, I believe, that of the whole developed world.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

The Prime Minister has made a compelling case for playing a proper part with our allies on both sides of the meaningless international border and for the political process, in which we can have a voice, of bringing the Americans closer to the Russians, and the Saudis and Turks closer to the Iranians. Does he accept, however, that in the medium term we have to look for whatever agreement can produce stability and a more peaceful situation, and that we might have to prepare ourselves for something that falls far short of a liberal, western democracy? Is not the experience of the Arab spring that going straight to democratic elections does not produce a resolution, that any agreement will have to involve some rather unpleasant people, not just those who would naturally be our allies, and that Assad and others might have to be involved, because the big enemy is ISIL, which is dangerous and cannot be engaged in any political negotiations?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend speaks with great wisdom about these matters, and it is important to have his support. He has never been an unquestioning supporter of military action, and he thinks these things through very carefully. He talks about the future Government of Syria and the transition that needs to take place falling short of some of the democratic norms that we would want to see, and yes of course that is likely. When I say that I believe Assad cannot be part of the long-term government of Syria, in many ways that is not a political preference; in my view, it is a statement of fact. There will not be a Government of Syria that can command the support of the Syrian people if he is in charge of it, because of the blood that has been shed and because of what has happened in that country. But do I believe that a transition in Syria will produce some perfect Swiss-style democracy? No of course it will not, but it might give us a partner with which we can complete the obliteration of ISIL and therefore make us safer.

European Council

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his detailed questions, to which I shall try to respond in detail.

Taking his last point first, of course we are doing everything we can in Europe to help our steel industry, which is why we voted in favour of dumping tariffs against the Chinese and will do everything we can to help our steel industry, including by looking at how we help with high-energy usage and the necessary clearances there.

As to whether we will raise the matter with the Chinese, we will of course raise all these issues. That is what our relationship with China is all about. It is at such a high level that no subject is off the table, and all these issues, including the steel industry, will of course be discussed.

Let me go through in order all the questions that the hon. Gentleman asked. First, he claimed that the discussion of our referendum had somehow been deferred once again, but that is simply not the case. This process was launched in June, as I always said it would be, although people doubted it would happen. There was always going to be an update in October, and then a full discussion in December—and that is exactly what is happening.

The hon. Gentleman asked what we were delivering for working people in Europe. I would point out that we are delivering 2 million jobs here in Britain for working people, with tax cuts for 29 million working people. I have set out in this statement again the reforms that we are pressing for in Europe.

The hon. Gentleman referred to a briefing in the weekend newspapers that he said seemed to be surprisingly well sourced about our plans. I am amazed that he feels it necessary to read or believe everything in the newspapers; I would have thought that that would be a route to deep unhappiness, so I advise that he desists at once. Let me tell him that our plans for a British Bill of Rights are unchanged. We want to get rid of the Human Rights Act and replace it with a British Bill of Rights.

We do need to reform free movement; it should not be free movement for criminals or for people who are benefit shopping, for example, and we are already taking steps to ensure that that is not the case.

The hon. Gentleman specifically asked whether votes at 16 would apply to the referendum. We voted in this House of Commons on votes at 16, and we voted against them, so I think we should stick to that position. I welcome the fact that everyone on the Labour Benches now seems to welcome having a referendum, even though they all campaigned against it at the last election.

On Turkey, refugees and Syria, I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he said about the British aid programme. It is right that we are making such a major contribution to the refugee camps. The precise deal with Turkey has not been finalised—some items are still being discussed—but I think it right to offer some financial support to Turkey when it is housing more than 2 million refugees and some 88% of them have stayed within the country. We obviously want Turkey to do even more to make sure that people do not get on dangerous dinghies and launch themselves into the Mediterranean, which is what the recent discussions have been about.

The hon. Gentleman asked what share of migrants arriving in Europe we would take, and I have explained that that is not the approach we are taking. We are not members of Schengen and we are not compelled to do that. We are taking people out of the refugee camps, which does not encourage people to make this journey. I have to say that in the discussions we have in Europe, there is a lot of respect for the British position. Indeed, the EU Commissioner on refugees said:

“I commend the UK for offering to take 20,000 refugees, it shows the UK is doing something beyond normal. The UK has a great reputation on migration”.

That is the view of the EU Commissioner.

On numbers, we have said that we want to see 1,000 refugees brought to Britain by Christmas, and we will report on that after Christmas to tell people how we have done.

As for the bishops, no one has more respect for them than me—[Interruption.] Yes, but on this occasion I think they are wrong, and I shall say so very frankly. I think the right thing to do is to take 20,000 refugees from the camps. If we become part of the mechanism of distributing people around the European Union, we are encouraging people to make the dangerous journey. I would like the bishops make a very clear statement, as the hon. Gentleman just did, that Britain has fulfilled our moral obligations by making a promise to the poorest countries and the poorest people in the world to spend 0.7% of our gross national income on aid. How many other big countries that made that promise have kept it? Let us hear an in-depth intervention from the bishops on that issue.

Finally, on Syria, the hon. Gentleman is right to say we need a political solution and that we should cut off the money and supply of weapons and fighters to ISIL. However, I do not believe that is enough; I believe we also need to be taking military action against ISIL, as we are in Iraq.

On the issue of the United Nations Security Council resolution, I am all for setting these things out in UN Security Council resolutions, but we have to deal with the plain fact that there is every chance that the Russians will veto such a resolution. I do not think we should stand back from taking our responsibility and safeguarding our country simply because we cannot have a UN Security Council resolution. I thank the hon. Gentleman for all his questions and hope that those were satisfactory answers.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

The Prime Minister will recall that for over 20 years successive British Governments have quite eagerly supported Turkey’s aim of eventually becoming a full member of the European Union, because of its strategic importance as an ally in its part of the world. Will he confirm that that remains the policy of the present Government, so long as Turkey adheres to the liberal, democratic political values that are key to the EU? Will he also confirm that, apart from in connection with visa arrangements, we are playing a full part in negotiations with Turkey, and are prepared to discuss the sharing of financial and other burdens? The migrant crisis that is affecting Turkey is the same migrant crisis that is affecting this and every other EU country, and we must all participate in the solution.

[The Prime Minister]

I can confirm that the British Government’s policy has not changed, and what my right hon. and learned Friend has said about the importance of helping Turkey is absolutely right. More than 2 million refugees, almost nine out of 10¸ have stayed in Turkey, and everything that we can do to help the Turks to keep those refugees—perhaps allowing more of them to work and to play an economic part in Turkey—will obviously help in this crisis. I think it fair to say that, although the Turks have done extraordinary work in looking after refugees—their refugee camps are some of the best anywhere in the world—we all need to help them to do more to stop people taking off from western Turkey into the waters of the Mediterranean, because that is a journey on which so many have died.

Syria: Refugees and Counter-terrorism

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for her response. I agree with her about the contribution that refugees who have come to Britain have made to our country. I am thinking of Jewish refugees from Europe, and of the Ugandan Asians who have made an immense contribution to our country, and I know that these people will do so as well.

I also agree with the right hon. and learned Lady that, as I said, there is not a number of refugees that we can take that will solve the problem of Syria. This is about meeting our humanitarian responsibilities, and demonstrating that ours is a country—which it is—with a moral conscience and a moral way in the world, which is why it is one of the countries that are not only taking refugees, but meeting their aid targets in a way that other major countries are not.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked about the 20,000 and how many we can take in this year. Obviously we want to get on with this process. It will depend in part on how well UNHCR can do in processing people in the camps to come to the UK. Checks obviously have to be made on the people we will be receiving. We also want to work, as she says, very closely with local authorities so that the capacity to not just receive people, but receive them well, is in place. She asked about the aid budget and whether we were going to stick to the rules. Yes, we are. The aid rules are explicit: we can use the money in the first year receiving refugees. That makes common sense, apart from anything else, so we will use that money.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked for an integration plan. The Home Secretary and Communities and Local Government Secretary will chair a committee to bring together Government, so that we make sure we do everything we can to help people across the country, and they will be looking at that issue of integration. Have we discussed this issue with First Ministers in Wales and Scotland? Yes, there has been contact. The First Minister in Scotland has made a generous offer, wanting to take, I think, 1,000 refugees into Scotland. With this 20,000 figure, that will probably rise, and I welcome what the Scottish National party is saying about that.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked about European co-operation. I have just got off the telephone to Angela Merkel; she was very grateful and welcomed the statement we are making today, but let me make this point, because it is important: Britain has a major role to play in terms of this conflict because we are the second biggest funder of these refugee camps, and we are the biggest donor of aid to many of these countries. We will be taking 20,000 refugees, but we think it makes more sense to take the refugees from the refugee camps, rather than those redistributed within Europe. Obviously countries within the Schengen no-border system have a different set of responses, and we will work with them, and it is important that we show solidarity as we do so. We want to encourage people not to make that dangerous crossing in the first place, and it is worth considering this: 11 million have been pushed out of their home in Syria, and so far only perhaps 3% have made that journey to Europe, so it is important that as we act with head and heart, we help people without encouraging them to make that dangerous and potentially lethal journey.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked about an emergency summit. Britain, France and Germany called for an emergency meeting of Home Affairs and Justice Ministers, which will take place on 14 September. We will be meeting as well in October, and if there is a need for further meetings, we can look at that, but what is needed overall in Europe is a comprehensive plan—not just for the number of refugees, but for dealing with the external border, making sure other countries meet their aid obligations and stopping the criminal gangs.

Let me turn to the right hon. and learned Lady’s questions on counter-terrorism. She asked: is this the first time in modern times that a British asset has been used to conduct a strike in a country where we are not involved in a war? The answer to that is yes. Of course, Britain has used remotely piloted aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this is a new departure, and that is why I thought it was important to come to the House and explain why I think it is necessary and justified.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked about the legal justification. She is right to say that we believe it was necessary and proportionate, and there was no other way we could have met our objectives, and all this was based on the Attorney General’s advice. We do not publish the Attorney General’s advice, but I am very happy to discuss the content of that advice and describe what it was about, which was largely self-defence. She asked whether the Attorney General should take the responsibility for carrying out these strikes. I do not think that is the right person to carry it out. I think the way we did this is right: with a meeting of senior national security Ministers, it being authorised by that group, and the operational details being left with the Defence Secretary, in line with what the Attorney General said. A proper process was followed.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked what was different about this person and this case. There was a relatively unique set of circumstances—which is not to say that they will not happen again—in that these people were in a part of Syria where there was no Government, no one to work with, and no other way of addressing this threat. The choice we were left with was to either think, “This is too difficult,” throw up our arms and walk away and wait for the chaos and terrorism to hit Britain, or take the action in the national interest and neutralise this threat, and I am sure that was the right thing to do. She asked if we would repeat this. If it is necessary to safeguard the United Kingdom and to act in self-defence, and there are no other ways of doing that, then yes, I would.

The right hon. and learned Lady asked about scrutiny, which is a very good question. I have come here today because I think it is important to be accountable in front of this House, but I am happy to look at what other ways there may be of making sure these sorts of acts are scrutinised in the coming months and years.

Finally, the right hon. and learned Lady talked about whether we should combat ISIL in Syria, as we do in Iraq. The question for the House is whether, if it is right to degrade and defeat ISIL in Iraq, in time it is surely right for us to assist in the efforts already under way to defeat and degrade ISIL in Syria. There are complications and difficulties, and I do not want to come back to the House until we have debated the matter more and people have had the chance to make their views known, but I am in no doubt that ISIL and its operatives are a clear and present danger to the United Kingdom, and the sooner they are defeated and eradicated, the better.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that one of the more absurd features of the discussions on the dreadful migration crisis of recent weeks has been the suggestion by some that the problem is either caused, complicated or made worse by Britain’s membership of the European Union? Does he agree that the flows start through Turkey and Libya, after which people come across the continent towards Britain, which is one of the more popular destinations after Sweden and Germany, and that those flows will cease only if we have more co-operation of the type that we have with the French at Calais, not if we open up disputes with the other member states of Europe?

Will the Prime Minister continue to make a leading and positive contribution to the comprehensive plan that he says is required to deal with, among other things, the appalling problems of where people should be encouraged to go and be accommodated outside Europe, how hard-headed decisions can be taken on who has to be settled for the duration of the crisis, and how that will be handled? We should not join Governments in Europe who simply pretend that the problem can be pushed over the border into a neighbouring state for the time being.

G7

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

I am pleased to hear from the Prime Minister that there was time at the G7 to consider the humanitarian tragedy in the Mediterranean, where huge numbers of people are drowning trying to flee conditions in their own countries. I agree with him that the long-term solution is development aid in the countries from which they come, but was there discussion of an international diplomatic effort and the giving of administrative and technical support to the Government of the failed state in Libya, which remains a lawless space through which huge numbers of people will continue to come unless and until some sort of stability is restored to the country?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend has identified the core part of the problem that needs to be solved urgently, which is the need for a Government of national unity in Libya. We can and do offer technical assistance, border security and the training of Libyans, but until there is a Government they do not join up and make a comprehensive strategy. At the G7, we talked about ensuring that our Foreign Ministers and others do everything they can to support Special Representative León and his work to form that Government. Once that is done, we can pour in the assistance to help them deal with the criminal gangs and secure their borders.

Tributes to Charles Kennedy

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

I am grateful for this opportunity to make a very brief addition to the tributes already paid by the party leaders, with which I wholly agree.

I too am one of those who remember Charlie Kennedy first arriving in the House of Commons in 1983, when he made a startling impression. He was very young—he was a student; he looked like a schoolboy—but people rapidly realised that in addition to all those striking attributes he was highly intelligent, very articulate, very self-confident, and capable of addressing this House in a very fluent and eloquent way, with that jokey, relaxed charm which was his distinctive style and which I do not recall anybody else quite achieving in that way. As he was such an unexpected and unique figure, he rapidly became very prominent not only in Parliament, but nationally, and he looked as though he would have been destined for a brilliant national career but for the limited expectations of the Social Democrats and the Liberal party with which he then associated himself. Well, he did achieve a good national career, and he eventually took his party to electoral heights that would have been unimaginable when he first arrived. I believe that his own distinct personality made a very great contribution to that.

People have said that his great moment was the Iraq war, and I agree, but he took many other strong, principled positions. On Europe, he was wrong sometimes, as he was on the coalition, but he always expressed his views with candid sincerity and always came to clear and principled conclusions for which he was prepared to argue.

We will all miss him. His personal attributes we all know; but they never made him unpleasant, if sometimes they made it a little difficult; it made him a more rounded character. He was one of the last of that great tradition that said we should best address political problems in the atmosphere of a smoke-filled room, which has been lost today. If I may, I will agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman): my main memories of Charles, apart from the pleasure of always being on good terms with him, demonstrate that in making a life in politics one can meet some remarkably decent, honest, very highly principled people. People such as Charlie Kennedy will leave their mark on this House for many years to come. My sympathies also go out to his family and friends.

G20

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Monday 17th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I do not even know where to start with the hon. Gentleman. When he started his question I thought perhaps he had forgotten that the communists were not running Russia any more. I know he used to back them in those days, but I thought he would have moved on a bit since then.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, when one looks for concrete practical steps that might be taken to achieve the wholly desirable goal of increased growth in the global economy, a very great deal depends on the successful achievement of a comprehensive trade deal between the European Union and the United States? As this is one of the few areas on which the Republicans in the United States agree with the Obama Administration, did he press other European leaders to go for rapid progress on agreement at this stage in the short window of opportunity between the mid-term elections being over and the next presidential campaign beginning?

European Council

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I would say to the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a huge amount of respect, that, to be fair to the Secretary of State for Defence, he corrected himself this morning, and I think he was absolutely right. It is right for politicians to raise concerns about immigration, but we should always choose our language carefully. He said this morning that he wished he had chosen his language in a different way, and I agree with that.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

May I sympathise with the Prime Minister on being taken by surprise on a subject that everybody in the Foreign Office and the Treasury must have known was coming along for the past five months, because British officials carried out the huge revision of the British GNP? I congratulate him on now choosing the sensible points, which are how to challenge the methodology and get the size of this reviewed, and how to get rid of the nonsense that it is all to be paid in a lump sum in a fortnight. Many other countries will join him in trying to sort that out.

Did the Prime Minister raise the European arrest warrant and the 34 other desirable directives which, I trust, we are going to opt into? Does he agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that these opt-ins are absolutely essential for the sake of our policing and criminal justice system if we are to make sure that it is up to dealing with international crime?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me say to my right hon. and learned Friend that of course these changes happen every year—they are expected every year and discussed every year—but what has never happened before is a change on this scale, and no one was expecting that. As for the opt-out or opt-in on justice and human rights, it is very important to recognise that we have already achieved the biggest transfer of power from Brussels back to Britain by opting out of 100 different pieces of legislation. We now need to make sure that we keep our country safe.

Iraq: Coalition Against ISIL

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

I do not think there is any significant controversy about the moral and legal case for what is proposed, and in five minutes I will not set it out. The world would be a better place if ISIS was destroyed, and Britain would be a safer country without doubt. The legal case for intervention in Iraq is clear with its Government’s inviting us, and I think it is pretty clear in Syria because of the genocide and the humanitarian disasters being inflicted on that country. I do agree that it is artificial to divide the two problems: the Sykes-Picot line is a theoretical line on the map now, and there is absolutely no doubt that ISIS has to be defeated in both countries.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Given that one of the principles of counter-insurgency is to deny the enemy a home base, is it not absolutely essential that we back the American efforts in Syria? Otherwise, we will never defeat ISIS in Iraq. For people to suggest that we cannot go to Syria is actually tying our hands behind our backs.

[Mr Clarke]

I agree with my hon. Friend. President Obama has been quite open that the alliance we are joining is going to launch attacks on ISIS in both Syria and Iraq, and it is unrealistic to proceed on any other basis.

The real debate, to which I would like to contribute briefly, and which is the only issue for the vast majority of people in this House and for the vast majority of our constituents, is: where are we going; what is the long-term purpose; what is the strategy; and how are our foreign policy, our politics and our diplomacy going to be better on this occasion than they have been for the last 15 years?

The disaster of past occasions is not that we attacked pleasant regimes; we attacked evil men when we attacked Hussein, when we got rid of Gaddafi, when we attacked al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, and we would have been doing so if we had attacked Assad’s chemical installations last year. It is no good going back. I supported two of those: Libya and Syria last year. I was dubious about one of the others; and I opposed Iraq. That is not the point. What happened in all those cases was that the military deployment produced a situation at least as bad as it had been before and actually largely worse.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

rose—

[Andrew Bridgen]

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

[Mr Clarke]

No. I have no time; I am sorry.

We did not create extremist jihadism; we did not create these fanatical, fundamentalist pressures, but we made things worse and made it easier for them to spread by some of our interventions. So we all agree that we must not repeat that. We need to be reassured, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on his speech, where he spent a very great deal of his time trying to reassure. I am left with the feeling that certainly I shall support the motion, because some of our best allies are taking part in this intervention, but I still think that we are at the early stages of working out exactly where we are going.

Our participation in these military attacks is almost symbolic. Six aircraft and our intelligence are no doubt valuable to our allies, but we are symbolically joining them. My main hope is that it gives us a positive influence on the diplomacy and the unfolding politics that have to take place to try to get together—again, all sides seem to agree that this is necessary—the widest possible participation and settlement between the great powers of the region, to get what we all want: lasting stability and security in what at the moment is a very dangerous region of the world.

I congratulate those who are responsible—Americans, no doubt—for getting the Sunni allies and the Arab states into what is taking place. That makes a big difference from previous occasions, but all these things have problems. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab states actually support other extremist Islamist, Sunni organisations, and they have to be persuaded not to. ISIS is the worst of the Sunni threats to the region, but it is not the only one, and its enemies include al-Qaeda and other groups as well.

The participation of the Shi’a is even more problematical, because there is no real Shi’a engagement, and that takes us on to the crucial matter of Iran. A lot of what is taking place in the region is a proxy struggle for power between Iran and the Shi’ites and the Saudis and the Sunni, and we revived ancient sectarian warfare that most sensible Muslims—the vast majority—hoped was long since dead.

Iran is a key influence because it is a close patron of Assad in Syria, of Hezbollah and of the Shi’ites in Iraq, including the Shi’ite militia, which is the only effective armed force at the moment for the so-called Iraqi Government. Somebody has got to get the Iranians and the Saudis closer together to support moderation and to decide what stability replaces things.

I am delighted that we have aligned ourselves with the Kurds, but their aim of Kurdistan makes problems for Turkey, and Turkey is a key ally as well if we are to make any progress.

I congratulate the Prime Minister on addressing all these things and on meeting Rouhani for the first time, and I wish him well over the coming several years, because no genius will solve this problem in a very short time.

Ukraine (Flight MH17) and Gaza

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As a friend of Israel—the right hon. Gentleman said that he is one too—I think we should always speak the truth, and I always have done with Israel, for instance in the case of illegal settlements. But I think another element of the truth is that if Hamas stopped the rocket attacks on Israel, the Israeli operation in Gaza would end and there would be a ceasefire. The point that the Israeli Prime Minister makes, which I think is a legitimate one, is that there have been a number of occasions when he has unilaterally declared or agreed to a ceasefire, but Hamas will not follow suit. I absolutely agree that we need to speak the truth, but the truth must start with an end to these attacks.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that within the next few days negotiations should be concluded between the member states of the European Union on a proper sharing of the economic burden that will fall on our own economies from economic sanctions? Does he also agree that if this outrageous behaviour is not met with truly effective sanctions, the west faces very grave problems in the next few years from Russian behaviour across the rest of central and eastern Europe, including the Balkan states and the Baltic states inside the Union itself?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes two extremely good points. First, we have to make sure that when tier 3 sanctions come—and they should come—they cover areas such as financial services, defence and energy. That will affect different countries in different ways, but we need to ensure that we are all effectively sharing in the burden. Britain has been clear that we are willing to do that. The second point he makes is that those who argue that the effect of sanctions will be to damage our own economies are missing the bigger point, which is that our economic future is bound up with our economic security. We will lose that diplomatic and economic security if we do not confront the fact that one country in Europe is now being destabilised by Russia, and if we let this happen, others will follow.