Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 19th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I suddenly thought that the court which heard St Paul declare himself a Roman citizen must have been just as surprised as we are at some of the people who claim to be British citizens, both by name or background and present place of abode. Your Lordships will remember that St Paul made an important and entirely supported point. Having declared himself a Roman citizen, he was treated in a different way. We have an important point here, and I commend my noble friend Lord Avebury in raising it. This is a very difficult area, not least because the exemplars are not ones that are easily taken to the heart of the broad mass of the British people. That means that those people should be particularly able to call upon this House.

I live in a house which was previously occupied, a long time ago, by the man who won the War of Jenkins’ Ear—the Battle of Porto Bello. At that time we thought that British citizenship was of enormous importance. People who found it quite hard to explain how they had managed to become British citizens were still supported, sometimes for pretty dubious reasons.

I hope that my noble friend will consider very carefully the points which the noble Lord has made. We live in a world in which statelessness is one of the most terrible things that can befall anyone. If you do not belong and cannot come to belong, you are placed in an impossible position. In a sense I welcome that this is so peculiar. This so special a situation which has been adumbrated, and the others around it are small in number and, as I suggested, do not affect many people or raise their sympathy in this country. Indeed, I fear that they could easily be used by some organs of the press as another way to beat the Government on their immigration policy. That makes it all the more important that we are very serious about this.

I therefore hope that my noble friend, in expressing his view on this amendment, will reassure the House that we do three things which are basic to British justice. First, we will recognise that if we have granted citizenship, or if someone has citizenship, we will defend it, and do so even though it be to our own hindrance. Secondly, we will not continue, unless there is some really good reason, the unacceptable position in which we say to somebody, “We will take away your citizenship but will not tell you why”. I find that unacceptable. I can see why people do that, but the circumstances must be most extreme before it is reasonable and acceptable. Thirdly, to take away someone’s citizenship, it is not reasonable to say that you assume that they can get another country’s citizenship. It is only reasonable to say that you know that they have another citizenship; anything less than that is wrong. It may not be convenient, but it is not right.

We have been the signatory to and the driver of much of the international law that seeks to reduce statelessness to its minimum. I fear that in this particular case, we may, for very good reasons—in seeking to close loopholes and make neat what is essentially a not very neat kind of law—do something which will do great injustice to a very small number of people. However, it is none the less injustice if it affects but one.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I will be brief, because I do not want to repeat the lengthy debate we had on this issue on Monday evening. That the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has raised this again tonight, as well as the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, indicates the strength of feeling and the very grave concerns about the Government’s provisions, which would make stateless some people in this country who are currently citizens. The issue was never, as the noble Lord perhaps thought on Monday, about the withdrawal and deprivation of citizenship, but about the consequences of making people stateless, not just for that individual but for public safety, national and international security. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, made the point about somebody either being trapped, stateless, in this country, and our obligation to that individual, or somebody being isolated overseas, with the implications that that has for the security of that country and our relationship with it.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the attention to detail he has given and for responding so fully to what has been an interesting debate. I am intrigued by some of the comments. My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey perhaps hit the nail on the head in trying to bring the debate back to the intent of my amendment.

In some ways, I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Marland, that you cannot legislate out crime, but I am not pretending for one second that by passing this amendment there would never be another incident. You could make that argument for any provision in the Bill. You could argue that you should not have legislation on anti-social behaviour because that will not get rid of it or that you should not have legislation to evict people for riot offences because that will not stop all rioting. That is not an argument for not bringing forward legislation that can make a difference.

The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, hit the nail on the head. You have to legislate with facts—not in haste. What we are seeking is to ensure the police have the powers they need. I take the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about the importance of background checks. Yes, we understand that, and we know that background checks are made. I made this point very clearly in my comments on Michael Atherton’s application, where the licensing officer would have liked to refuse because of evidence of domestic violence—he had received a caution. The licensing officer would have liked to refuse, but for various reasons the police may come back and say, “We do not think we can”. When we read that it has cost Hampshire police thousands of pounds when licences have been challenged, we realise that there is a case here.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said that a decision must be taken on its merits, and that is exactly what the police are seeking to do. They want to take decisions on their merits, but there is a fear of legal action. The amount of discretion offered means they could be challenged. In the Michael Atherton case, three people were murdered with a legally held shotgun despite a previous caution for—and therefore substantive evidence of—domestic violence. It is worth nothing that after this case the IPCC said that there has to be legislation alongside guidance.

I do not accept the Minister’s comments. It is not a matter of having evidence but of giving the police the tools they need to act on the evidence they have. That is what the legislation at present does not do. I am grateful to the Minister for his comments, but I do not share his confidence that there is no legislation that could be brought forward to protect the public. The public will be absolutely horrified to know that, where there is evidence of violent behaviour or domestic violence, people can be legally allowed to have firearms. That is quite shocking and I am surprised that it is being defended by noble Lords.

I am sure that when checks were undertaken on the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Marland, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, no evidence was found of violence in their backgrounds, so they were happily given a licence. But there are many people who are not like the noble Lords and who do need to have some checks and balances.

[Lord Deben]

The noble Baroness has not mentioned me among those who said that but I should like her to include me within the list, otherwise it would be incomplete.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am very happy to include the noble Lord in the list, unless he tells me otherwise. However, the point is valid. The checks are being done now but the police are clear that there are cases where they have felt obliged to issue a licence although the evidence has told them that they should not. On the issue of subsidy—

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister has noticed that the amendments in this group are the same as the ones that I brought forward previously, but she will be relieved to know that I shall not be repeating that discussion. I have brought them back in order to seek clarification on a couple of points.

When I read through the Hansard for that debate, it seemed that, although the noble Lord the Minister who responded to me on that occasion and I were heading in the same direction, we were on different paths. I think that there was some misunderstanding about the issue at the time.

During that debate, I listened to the Minister’s response and agreed that I would take note of what he said. However, I also wanted to read his comments to be clear about his reasons for not being able to agree to the amendment, because he certainly agreed to the principle behind them. He agreed with us that responsibility for the policies to tackle climate change relate not to just one government department but cut across departments. If the Government are to achieve their targets, they need to have policies across all areas, including planning, which is very important. Therefore, as I said to the noble Baroness, I am not repeating previous comments but am simply seeking clarification.

First, in the previous debate the Minister said that the amendment was unnecessary because neighbourhood development plans would have to be drafted, and he used the phrase “in general conformity with” the strategic policies of local plans, which would obviously include policies on climate change. I think that he was trying to be helpful. We thought that the Government would accept the amendments that we had brought forward because, if the plans can be “in general conformity with”—the phrase used by the Minister—that can exclude specifics. The reason for tabling this amendment is to see whether the noble Baroness can tighten that up a bit. I think it was agreed that, if neighbourhood development plans had to be in conformity with strategic policies and local plans, that would be a little stronger and give a clear indication and guidance that the Government intend neighbourhood development plans to take into account climate change. At the moment there is a little bit too much wriggle room, which could be damaging for the Government in trying to reach their targets.

Secondly, at that time the Minister was concerned that neighbourhood development plans should achieve reductions in greenhouse gas emissions in line with carbon budgets set under the Climate Change Act 2008. I think he was under the impression that this would mean that every area would have to achieve the same level of reduction. That is clearly impossible and was never intended in the amendment, and I shall therefore be happy if someone can come back with different wording. Both these amendments seek to ensure that all plans, at whatever level, take these issues into account so that they can make a contribution to the targets and the issue is not ignored.

The intention is no more than that, and I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to come back on both those points. Amendment 204B seeks to deal with the question of “in conformity with” and the second amendment, Amendment 206B, tries to make a contribution to the climate change targets but does not insist on equal contributions being made. I fear that, although it is not the Government’s intention, this issue could be ignored. I know from the comments made by the Minister on the previous occasion that that is not the intention but I seek to ensure that it is not the effect.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, there is an issue here with which I hope the Minister will be very careful. Local authorities need to be reminded all the time, and we have had some difficulty in the past in concentrating the Government’s mind on the place of local authorities in carrying through the nitty-gritty of fighting climate change. Unless we make sure that they understand that they are on the front line and that what they do contributes a huge amount to the totality, we are going to be in difficulty. I do not think that it would matter so much had we not taken quite some time to get that into the whole run of things. This was a big issue in earlier Bills, and I hope that the Minister will understand that there is a real appetite for her to be pretty tough about this and to make sure that local authorities recognise their role.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I just hope that we do not underestimate the big role that the British Property Federation and others ought to have in making sure that information about the measures reaches both those who rent and those who let property. I am a little unhappy about the pressure from the British Property Federation. Having been involved in property and in writing about it all my life, I rather think that, despite the efforts that are being made to suggest that somebody else ought to provide the information, those who let property ought to do that. In addition, if there is a problem from the private sector, the British Property Federation and others could certainly take that up.

When the Minister replies, I hope that he will accept that it is not just for the Government to tell people of the advantages available to them; the first people who ought to do that should be those who have the interests of the landlords—and, I hope, the tenants—in mind. It would be a pity if we suggested that that was not a proper role for the industry to take on its shoulders. If this were something that was hurting the industry, the various organisations would be the first to make sure that everyone knew about it. Therefore, I find this whole pressure a bit odd. I hope that your Lordships will not move us towards a position that will underestimate or remove the important role that the organisations should take.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, that is exceptionally good advice. It will be crucial that information is available for tenants and for landlords. My point in moving the amendment was that the review should not be limited to the items listed in subsection (5) of Clause 36.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggested that my amendment is not clear on whether the Secretary of State or the reviewer would decide the criteria. I refer her to Clause 36(3)(a), which makes it clear that the matter is for the Secretary of State. All that I seek is not to limit the review to the four criteria listed in subsection (5). I hope that the Minister will take on board my point about information being available and how crucial that will be for the process being successful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I would like to suggest—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Amendment 20PA, which is in my name, is in some ways not dissimilar to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. I think that we are perhaps trying to achieve the same ends in different ways. We both raised concerns that any regulations introduced by local authorities should not be conditional on a review taking place. It is worth looking at the scale of the problem, which we will perhaps do in respect of the next group of amendments. Nineteen per cent of private tenants live in fuel poverty. The figures and the impact assessment show how great the problem is for those who live in the private rented sector, the difficulties that they face in meeting their bills and the impact of living in cold properties on their health.

Properties in the private rented sector have the worst energy performance rating of any property sector in the UK. My amendment takes a slightly different approach to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. However, we share a widespread concern about the timing of the review and the fact that until the review takes place no regulations can be brought in. We do not want the action to be conditional on the review, but any regulations brought in must improve energy efficiency.

As regards the number of properties available to rent, no one wants to see a decrease. However, the issue is the degree of decrease. I am sure that although the Minister will tell me that the word “significant” is not normally used in legislation, he will understand the point that we are making. There may be times when it is appropriate to have a short-term decrease in the rented housing stock in order that work can be undertaken, but no one wants to see a permanent or a long-term decrease. We have put in the word “significant” to address that and to tease out from the Minister what he anticipates when he refers to a decrease in the housing stock.

The clause raises the enormous concern that the regulations will be pushed so far into the future that the significant problems of energy efficiency that exist now for people living in fuel poverty in the private rented sector will not be addressed. I am grateful to the Residential Landlords Association, to which we will come in the next group of amendments. The private sector needs certainty. As the Bill stands, all that it knows is that there will be a review, after which it may be required to undertake energy efficiency measures. But there is no clarity or certainty. This is a probing amendment. I hope that the Minister understands the points that are being made and why the concerns have been raised; namely, that great problems exist in the private rented sector.