Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Earl Attlee

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - part one): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

I did not quite understand the bit about things that have not yet been invented. The reason I did not understand is that I am not sure that I would be very happy about giving powers to give permission for the use of something that has not been invented, because I do not know whether what has not been invented would be something that I would like to give people the powers to use, if you see what I mean. This is a very dangerous route down which to go.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend does not need to worry about that at all, because it will be under the affirmative procedure, so Ministers will have to justify it. I have to say that future-proofing this seems to me to be a sensible thing to do, although on the other hand I slightly have sympathy for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, there is an issue here. I do not actually like the way proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Best, because it seems too prescriptive as to how it might be done. I am entirely in favour of this clause. It is very important, in the present circumstances, to find a way of not insisting upon the kinds of costs which were possible at a time in which prices were utterly different. I therefore like the clause but I am concerned that it does not include the possibility of local authorities saying “Yes, okay, the inspector has said that we can reduce the number by this level but the deal is that you get started—and these are the terms of getting started that we want”. In other words, I am not sure that I want to have statutory, public, universal terms because it would seem much better to have it dealt with at local level, and to lay down there which definition of commencement was necessary in this circumstance by this particular local authority.

I am not sure that I like the answer which the noble Lord, Lord Best, has brought forward but my noble and learned friend has pointed to the fact that we need some sort of answer. If we do not have one, people will be getting a deal and then not doing what we are trying to bring this forward to achieve. I do not know whether my noble friend would be right to accept this amendment, but it would be helpful to us if she were prepared, at least, to look again at having some kind of mechanism so that this was not misused, instead of being the very valuable thing which it could so easily be.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we need to be a little careful about Report stage rules.

Railways: High Speed Rail

Debate between Lord Deben and Earl Attlee

Monday 28th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is an exciting project. However, we need to be doing it for the right reasons, and I believe—as I think most noble Lords do—that we are. I am sure all noble Lords will agree that it is important that we have an effective and fair system of planning for these large infrastructure projects. However, as the noble Lord will know from his experience as a former government Chief Whip, the process for getting a hybrid Bill through Parliament is quite protracted; it is not an easy thing to do. However, we will do it.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, will my noble friend listen carefully to the point that has just been made about speed? I, too, hope to travel on that first train. I would like it to come earlier because that makes it more certain that I will be in a position to do so. Secondly, will he congratulate his right honourable friend in the other House on producing a Statement that was as non-party political as possible, because we need consensus? It did not refer to the fact that since privatisation the use of the railway has increased enormously, and that all the fears that people had have been entirely reversed. It was right to leave that out of the Statement.

Thirdly, does my noble friend not agree that the grandchildren of the people who objected to the railways being built in the first place became those who were most determined to defend them after they had been built? We have to be very firm with those people who, for understandable reasons, do not understand that this country has been held back by its failure over many years to invest in infrastructure. Recent years have seen great change, with the growing of Crossrail and the rest of it. We are a very much more advanced country as a result. Frankly, nimbyism must not be allowed to stand in the way of Britain growing. Will my noble friend be tough about this? It will be easier to be tough if we do this more quickly. The longer we push it out, the more it will be possible for these people to gain support.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, of course I always listen very carefully to what noble Lords say. I am grateful that my noble friend thought that it was a non-party political Statement. However, it did say that passenger activity had doubled. In the past, when I had to repeat a Statement that had rather more political content, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, did not resist the opportunity to give me a good and well deserved teasing.

We have failed to invest in infrastructure in the past. However, over recent years we have rather turned the tide and recognised the benefits of railways. I will be as tough as I can, but in my current position my capacity is limited.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I declare an interest in various environmental organisations, as in my declaration of interests. I underline the importance of the amendment in this sense. It is precisely because we have put such a requirement in so many other areas that it is important not to leave it out here. I know that it is a tendency of government to say, “This is otiose. It is perfectly possible to deal with these matters without a specific reference”, but I speak with the sore memory of having to deal, as Secretary of State, with the gas regulator at the time, who claimed that because she did not have a specific requirement in this area, she could not take into account the issues with which we are concerned.

I have no doubt that the Minister has been encouraged by his civil servants not to take the amendment on board. The phrase “better not” will probably have been evinced. I hope that, at the very least, he will agree to go away to think about it again. It is all too easy for regulators to say, “If the rail regulator has it and we do not, it must have been because Parliament did not see us in the same way”. I fear that that is an increasing tendency and it is something about which we must be very careful.

As chairman of the Committee on Climate Change, I am extremely careful not to have mission creep, so I am not in any sense making comments about the way in which we run our airports, but it seems to me, as an environmentalist, that it can do no harm to repeat the Government’s commitment to the environment, to its desire to become the greenest Government ever and to the general understanding that aviation plays a particular part in the difficulties with which we are faced in dealing with not only climate change but local environment pollution and the considerations which come around any airport.

I come to my last point. I doubt that the Minister will have had a chance to read the main article in Bloomberg News, but I hope that he will take the opportunity of doing so. If he does not have it immediately at hand, I will send him a copy, because it reminds us how immediate are the environmental demands which face us. I very much hope that he will find it possible to accept what seems to me to be an innocuous—in other words, in no way a damaging—amendment and something on which we on both sides of the House could agree.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for expressing once again the reasoning behind her amendment. I also recognise the contribution from my noble friend Lord Deben. However, I fear that I cannot accept the amendment. I urge noble Lords to consider the positive work that this Government have already set in train to address the underlying general environmental concerns. Indeed, earlier this afternoon, on an environmental supplementary duty in respect of the CAA’s airport economic regulation functions, I referred to some examples of the action taken by this Government to ensure that the sector makes a significant and cost-effective contribution to mitigate the adverse environmental effects of civil aviation in the UK. I also urge your Lordships to consider the merits of the amendments we have already agreed to address the specific concern of the impact of the airport economic regulatory regime on the environment.

Let me now address this amendment, which seeks to provide the CAA with a general environmental duty. The previous Government consulted on giving the CAA a general environmental objective, alongside proposed safety and consumer objectives, in December 2009. The responses were mixed, with airport operators in favour but airlines opposed. The majority of airline respondents felt that it was for the Government to set the direction of environmental policy but for the CAA to regulate, and that giving the CAA an environmental objective would blur the boundary between policy and regulation and could create additional costs on the industry. They felt that it was not appropriate for the CAA to have to make environmental judgments on noise or emission levels at airports but instead that it was more appropriate for it to regulate the impacts in line with government environmental policy. We talked earlier about the difficult policy issue of Heathrow Airport, the background to which is of course an environmental issue regarding what the environment can tolerate. However, these issues are a matter for central Government.

Since the consultation, the CAA has included an objective in its Strategic Plan: 2011 to 2016:

“To improve environmental performance through more efficient use of airspace and make an efficient contribution to reducing the aviation industry's environmental impacts”.

I will come back to that in a little more detail in a moment. Additionally, the information, guidance and advice duties and powers in the Bill are now stronger than those that were consulted on. The CAA has a duty to secure publication of appropriate environmental information. Environmental impacts have been defined very broadly in Clause 84 to include noise, vibration, emissions and visual disturbance from aircraft as well as the “effects from services” and facilities “provided at civil airports”.

The knock-on consequences for human health are also covered by the information provisions in Clause 84. This is a very important issue for some communities and one where additional information could provide a valuable contribution to an informed debate. Noble Lords should be in no doubt that there are real benefits to be gained through the collection of good quality environmental information that can be presented in a consistent way to help passengers and freight owners judge the environmental impact of their travel choices. In addition, the CAA will be able to publish guidance and advice with a view to the sector limiting or controlling the adverse environmental effects of civil aviation in the UK. I suspect that the environmental effect that most concerns the noble Baroness is that of CO₂ emissions.

The CAA is also already undertaking and supporting a number of actions to deliver positive environmental outcomes. Two examples of that include, first, the CAA’s work on implementing the Single European Sky initiative to enhance the design, management and regulation of airspace across the EU by moving from airspace divided by national airspace boundaries to functional airspace blocks. It is estimated that since 2008, the UK-Ireland functional airspace block has provided approximately £35 million of savings, including around 150,000 tonnes of CO₂. Under the EU’s Single European Sky legislation, the environment is considered to be as important as safety and efficiency and there are EU-wide performance targets on the environment. The CAA has reflected this additional emphasis on the environment in its regulatory approach to the provision of air traffic management services.

Secondly, the CAA is also continuing to develop and take forward the future airspace strategy to modernise the UK airspace system. Again, I have organised a presentation for your Lordships to understand the work that is going on. This includes a clear driver to implement air traffic management improvements that reduce emissions from aircraft and contribute to minimising aviation’s environmental impact. These include enabling more direct routes and optimal vertical profiles, continuous climb and descent procedures and reduced reliance on stack holding, which all reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Both these developments will be positive for CO₂ emissions; indeed, that is one of the drivers for them. I hope that the House will agree that we have struck a good balance on the environment, since we have already agreed some useful amendments today, and that the CAA will be better placed than ever before to take environmental matters very seriously, as we would expect it to do. I hope that in due course the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments but I am disappointed. It is fine to list all the wonderful things that the CAA, the aviation industry and the Government are doing but the fact of the matter is that environmental issues are absolutely crucial. We must always remember that everything else, such as the economy, is a subset of the environment. If we wanted a reminder of that, we need look no further back than two weeks ago when Hurricane Sandy blew into New York and its stock exchange closed for two days because some things are even more important than our economy.

It is very regrettable if the wisdom of putting a duty into this Bill about the environment cannot be seen. Clearly, this is a sector with a large environmental impact. The measures that the Minister has listed arise because of the significance of its impact. I cannot see why this sector should have a regulator that does not have an environmental duty when all other sectors appear to have one. I do not think that the Minister provided a clear rationale for why this should be the case and aviation should be singled out. If anything, his list of the measures being undertaken makes me consider that there ought to be a broad environmental duty to give the CAA cover for undertaking all these activities. How can it be that we have introduced all these environmental aspects but not given the broad framework from which they may hang? I am afraid that I am not persuaded.

Aviation

Debate between Lord Deben and Earl Attlee

Thursday 13th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I start by congratulating my noble friend Lord Rotherwick on securing this debate. My noble friend said that he was worried, but he need not be, not least because of his skilful advocacy of general aviation. We have heard about the significant contribution that the general aviation sector makes to the UK economy, and we must not forget the social benefits of GA as well. It provides many thousands of enthusiasts with the chance to enjoy their passion for flying, provides world-class training for pilots, technicians and many other roles, and inspires youngsters to take up a career in aviation. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, rightly mentioned the vital air ambulance services.

The existence of a network of general aviation airfields across the country plays a key role in the success of this sector, linking business centres that are not otherwise served by commercial air services, and providing the basis from which various recreational and sporting aviation activities take place. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick and others mentioned the employment opportunities that can arise. Reference has been made to the current planning system, which, I regret to say, has become unwieldy and complex, making it hard for experts to put into practice, let alone communities to understand. Instead, the Government are committed to putting in place a simpler, swifter system that everyone can understand. This afternoon's debate will, I hope, reassure my noble friend that the policies within the draft National Planning Policy Framework support and maintain appropriate protection for our important general aviation sector.

The draft framework streamlines current national planning policy into a consolidated set of priorities to consider when planning for and deciding on new development. It will help to ensure that planning decisions reflect genuine national objectives, such as the need to safeguard the natural environment, combat climate change and support sustainable local growth.

[Lord Deben]

Did my noble friend notice that the noble Lord the spokesman for the Opposition made it quite clear that the Opposition did not take an interest in the environmental case, which enabled us to say that the expansion of Heathrow was a bad thing, but tried to suggest that it was a party-political decision rather than one of high moral standing?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I try to minimise my party-political comments as much as possible and normally manage to confine them to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham.

Planning decisions should support those national objectives while allowing local councils and communities to produce their own plans, reflecting the distinctive needs and priorities of different parts of the country. The draft framework sets national priorities and rules only where it is necessary to do so. The principle of sustainable development permeates the draft: that the actions we take to meet our needs today must not compromise the ability of future generations to meet their own. I will not be drawn any further into defining “sustainable development”.

To help support economic prosperity, the draft framework contains polices on planning for business, transport and infrastructure. To support quality of life, there are policies on housing, design and the green belt; and to help protect our environment there are polices covering climate change, and our natural and historic environment.

As my noble friend Lord Rotherwick noted, the transport polices within the draft framework streamline current transport policy contained within PPG 13 on transport. However, it is important to emphasise that the current core policy approach for planning for airports and airfields has not changed. The draft framework asks local councils to consider the growth and role of airports and airfields, which are not subject to a separate national policy statement, in serving business, leisure, training and emergency service needs. Local councils are also asked to consider the principles set out in the relevant national policy statements and the Government's framework for UK aviation, which is under development. So in answer to my noble friend’s question, I do not feel that specific further protection provisions for airfields are needed in the NPPF if they are to be set out elsewhere.

Reference was also made earlier to previously developed land. On this, the Government want to hand responsibility back to local councils and communities to decide which developable land should be used in their areas. The draft framework still encourages the use of previously developed land for development. It states that,

“plans should allocate land with the least environmental or amenity value”.

That means, of course, using derelict land when considering where to develop in the future. But it also allows restored green space that was once in industrial use, such as urban nature reserves, to be protected.

The reforms will give power back to local communities to decide the areas they wish to see developed and those protected away from the interference of Whitehall. The definition of “previously developed land” within the draft framework remains the same as that set out within PPG 3 on housing. It is defined as land which is or was occupied by a permanent structure, including the curtilage of the developed land and any associated fixed-surface infrastructure.

However, in determining the future use of an airfield which is deemed to comprise,

“land with the least environmental or amenity value”,

the local council will need to also consider the role of the airport or airfield in serving business, leisure, training and emergency service needs, and ensure the location of the proposed development is appropriate and sustainable when considered against all of the policies within the national planning policy framework, the local plan for the area and any other relevant material planning considerations.

I note that the General Aviation Alliance has responded to the Government’s call for comments on the draft framework. I can assure noble Lords that during the weeks ahead the Government will consider all the suggestions that have been made as part of this consultation and will ensure that the policy adopted will continue to protect against inappropriate development, while also enabling local people to plan for the sensible and well designed development that provides homes and jobs, on which the future prosperity of their community depends.

I will try to answer as many specific questions as possible. I always look forward to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and I will of course be positive. The noble Lord knows perfectly well that a policy framework for aviation will not be completed in a few months, as he suggested. The noble Lord will also recall that Heathrow, while very important, is not generally involved in general aviation activities, for obvious reasons, so I will resist the temptation to get involved in debating Heathrow.

My noble friend Lord Rotherwick asked about the supporting aviation infrastructure network. The draft NPPF asks local councils to work with neighbouring councils and transport providers to develop strategies for the provision of the viable infrastructure necessary to support sustainable economic growth. This includes the transport investment necessary to support strategies for the growth of airports. My noble friend also asked about extending the safeguarding to all GA airfields and small airports. This would require careful consideration as there is potential for conflict with other aviation interests and wider government aims. The safeguarding process includes protection against other aviation activity; given the significant number of aerodromes across the UK, there is a real risk of overlapping safeguarding zones. Where this occurred, local planners might be forced to prioritise one aerodrome over another, which may in turn work to the detriment of general aviation.

My noble friend Lord Sharkey asked a number of questions, including one about UK flight training. He will recognise that there are a number of commercial and operational reasons why flight training organisations conduct some or all of their training outside of the UK, despite the observations of my noble friend Lord Goschen about the high quality of UK training. These include increased competition from flying schools in other countries, rising costs—including VAT—and the complications afforded by the weather and congested airspace in the UK. Mitigating some of these taxation issues, even if desirable, could cause considerable problems with the EU state aid rules and the principal VAT directive. However, the UK has implemented the mandatory exemptions for suppliers of education laid down in Article 132 of the principal VAT directive. My noble friend also asked about renewable energy. The coalition Government have made clear their commitment to increasing the deployment of renewable and low-carbon energy across the UK.

My noble friends Lord Sharkey and Lord Goschen also asked about European issues related to pilot licensing and EU regulation. The UK supports the principles of proportionate regulation and the view that new EU regulatory proposals should be supported by a meaningful impact assessment that reflects different types of aviation activity across the sector. A one-size-fits-all approach is not always the best solution. My noble friend Lord Goschen compliments the UK regulatory regime—he should do because he had ministerial responsibility for it at one point.

The noble Earl, Lord Stair, asked about a sustainable framework for aviation. The Government are currently developing a new policy framework for UK aviation. A scoping document was published on 30 March, setting out our priorities for aviation, and the extended call for evidence closes on 20 October. The scoping document asked a series of questions, some of which are specifically directed at the GA sector, including the balance to be struck between conflicting demands such as housing and maintaining a network of GA aerodromes. I can assure the noble Lord that a number of GA stakeholders have already responded and their views will be taken into consideration alongside those of other respondents as the policy development process moves forward. The noble Earl asked about the protection of agricultural land. The policy in the draft framework maintains the agricultural land protections currently set out in planning policy statement 7.

My noble friend Lord Goschen asked about the local impacts of airfield development. The draft framework includes a policy that asks local councils to ensure that the new development is appropriate for its location, having regard to the effects of pollution on health and the natural environment or general amenity and taking into account the amount of potential sensitivity of the area of proposed development to adverse effects from pollution. This policy would apply to planning proposals nearby or next to airports or airfields. Therefore, where noise is likely to be an issue to the proposed site or development, the location is likely to be deemed inappropriate.

In conclusion, I thank my noble friend for his short debate and all his efforts in supporting the general aviation sector.