European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Dykes and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has made that point, because it is noticed and it is not said enough that there is a gap there which really makes the Chamber awkward from the point of view of these issues. I also support what my noble friend Lord Cormack said and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, for raising these matters. It will be quite alarming if there is an erosion of the common travel area arrangements, which are historic since 1923, just because other things are happening in a geopolitical sense regarding new legislation for leaving the European Union. The psychological aspect is important too, because creating that common travel area so long ago, as a unique and special example of co-operation between countries, was a way for the British to make up to the Irish for what had happened in the past and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, said, a way of promoting economic co-operation and activity. People came towards Britain, mostly, rather than the other way round, but increasingly, as the Irish economy developed in the post-war period, people also went to Ireland for work and travel.

The present situation is that there should literally be no erosion or changes; it should be exactly as it was. Yet, one hears these stories of what is happening—the wrong kind of attitude on the part of certain officials, and so on; I will not go into more detail than that. This arrangement is very important, because it is a miniature Schengen between just two countries and, partly for that reason of course, both countries decided not to join in the full Schengen arrangements, although there were also other reasons connected at the margin. It is a very precious aspect of the wider picture of there being no change at all to the Irish border arrangements, which is so important for both this legislation and the future of our relationship with the European Union. This of course means, effectively—yes, we have to say it—staying in the single market and customs union, and why not? In the meantime, this arrangement is crucial and I hope that the Government will reassure us tonight that there is a commitment to keeping the purity of the CTA and that there will be no erosion.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, there is little I can add that is new to this debate. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws for raising these issues and I hope the Minister will make use of his customary courtesy to the House. When he responded at Second Reading and in Committee on these issues, there was a sense that he understands the concerns that were raised then, and indeed the issues raised today. When he spoke on 14 March, he was clear that there will be no impediment at the land border to the movement of people—no checks and no profiling, full stop. That was the first time that the Government had given that degree of clarity—I think my noble friend Lady Kennedy would recognise that—or sought to emphasise that. This is important, and the Minister will understand the great concerns being raised. We still have no clarity on the border issue. This House has already expressed a view on the customs union and I am sure that, as we debate Northern Ireland issues later on Report, we will deal with those further.

I hope that the Minister is able to address the concerns that have been raised about the common travel area and movement of people. He has a sense of deftness and understands these issues, so if he can address them today we would be grateful.

European Public Prosecutor’s Office: EUC Report

Debate between Lord Dykes and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 28th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes (LD)]

Since my noble friend described himself as a Euro-agnostic, I do not think I would offend my friend—not noble friend—on the Labour side if I called him a Euro-realist or sometimes a Euro-hesitator about a number of aspects which he analyses with great precision. I am an unashamed Euro-enthusiast and yet, none the less, I think there is agreement about this particular document and report as was seen in the way in which we couched our recommendations having studied this matter carefully.

The European Union is evolving after the Lisbon treaty in what I hope will be a gradually accelerated fashion. It is inevitably slowed down by the realities of economic austerity and slowed down in the national economies of all the member states, not just the leading ones. That is a reality that we see, as well as the constant difficulty of blending different national cultures in all sorts of areas. Perhaps one of the most difficult areas is the law and the legal sector, because of the noticeable difference of the Anglo-Saxon legal system, mainly in the UK and Ireland, the Roman legal systems of the other member states, mixed with some of the new member states since 2004.

That is just the reality; it is not to be hostile to the evolution of Europe by annunciating those realities that we are facing in all sorts of complicated sectors. This one is particularly complicated, and I think that this is an occasion where the member states expressed a general support for the notion and the concept, but maybe for the future, as the noble Lords, Lord Rowlands and Lord Hodgson, mentioned without going into the details. Subsdiarity must be a real element of the Lisbon treaty in order to provide reassurance to the national publics of each member state, particularly the one in this country, which is particularly fragile in its Euro-hesitation; this disturbs me greatly because I think it is unnecessary, but it is because of the fight between the political parties and the rise of UKIP. It is necessary to balance all those things and not to rule out this concept for the future.

There is every prospect that the EPPO concept itself will gain confidence if it goes slowly forward but the national legal systems demand that the national prosecutorial authorities have the upper hand in the initial stages of that timeframe, which may be quite long, over a number of years, to gain reassurance. We have the co-operative tradition anyway between the forces of law and order in the European cockpit. Europol is proving to be a great success—under a UK executive head, I am glad to say—and is developing apace, and so are the other instruments that were mentioned by the two previous speakers in this debate.

If that is the way to do it, it may be that in future the EPPO will have a pragmatic construct, a special piece of instrumentation by way of a regulation agreed between the Council and the European Parliament that would include the national prosecutorial authorities inside the EPPO system to reassure the public, who will feel that subsdiarity will have therefore been satisfied. Our need for subsidiarity in a number of areas needs to be expressed. People should not be nervous about doing that. This is a classic example. I am very glad to be on the same committee as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and to support enthusiastically this recommendation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Rowlands for his explanation of the committee’s report. There seems to be a remarkable degree of agreement between us all this evening. I am pretty sure that the Minister is not going to demur from that.

This is a very detailed technical issue and it is quite clear from the speeches we have heard that not only does it deserve detailed scrutiny, it has received that scrutiny. This is not a new proposal. It has been raised on a number of occasions. The negative response from the Government is not new either.

Even before the 2001 Green Paper from the Commission first proposed a European public prosecutor, the idea had been discussed, particularly in discussions on the Nice treaty, when an outline proposal was put forward but then dropped through lack of member state support. In response to the Green Paper, the European Scrutiny Committee in the other place reported in 2002, saying that it was,

“unnecessary, particularly given the existence of Eurojust”.

At that time, the committee identified a number of concerns. Those concerns remain, for example: the combination of prosecution and investigative functions; the power of the EPPO to commit a person for trial and determine the location of the trial; the creation of differing standards of criminal responsibility for fraud depending on whether or not it related to fraud on the community’s financial interests; the lack of democratic accountability for the prosecution function; and, of course, the breach of the subsidiary principle and dilution of member state responsibility for prosecution of fraud.

Since then, the creation of a specialist EU prosecution authority has been raised again but still has not gained the support it would need to proceed. The 2011 European Scrutiny Committee echoed the concerns of the 2002 committee when, in recommending the 2011 communication for debate in the European Committee, it cautioned against the “inappropriate and unacceptable” use of national criminal justice systems in acting against crimes against EU finances.

However, as my noble friend Lord Rowlands made clear, it is fair to say that this proposal has not been thought up in a vacuum. It seeks to address a genuine problem and we recognise the seriousness of that problem, which is that there needs to be greater protection of the EU’s financial interests and we need to see further improvements in how the EU deals with fraud. The level of suspected fraud against the EU budget is obviously and rightly a source of concern. The report refers to the Commission’s estimate that it stands at around €500 million, or £425 million, in each of the last five years. British taxpayers bear part of the cost of that fraud, which is totally unacceptable. We must seek new and better ways of tackling this fraud, preventing it and bringing those responsible to justice.

The question that the European Union Committee was looking at was: is the EPPO the best way of achieving this? We again concur with the committee’s conclusion that it is not. We made our position clear when in government, and that has not changed. Our position remains, as my noble friend Lord Rowlands outlined very clearly, that the proposal for an EPPO breaches the subsidiarity principle. It is clear that the national-level approach, supported by existing EU mechanisms, is more appropriate.

When we signed the Lisbon treaty, we made it clear that although the treaty could allow for such an office, we were strongly against it, as the noble Lord will recall. We insisted on a “double lock” to ensure that it could not be established. Indeed, your Lordships’ House was, as always, very diligent in its scrutiny of this measure and, following debate, supported the position made very clear by my noble friend Lady Ashton of Upholland in 2008, when she said:

“We have secured legally watertight safeguards in the treaty against any move towards a European public prosecutor or subsequently, and just as important, towards extending that prosecutor’s role. It is what we would call a double lock”.—[Official Report, 9/6/08; col. 454.]

We were not just opting out at that point but securing essential safeguards for the future, which we are able to use today.

That double lock meant that, in order to proceed, the UK would first have to opt in and then, even if a future Government decided that they wanted to opt in, there would still need to be unanimity, and that would be retained for any decision to establish a prosecutor or extend the powers of any such prosecutor. Therefore, we concur with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, on behalf of the EU committee, that the creation of the EPPO was not the appropriate response to tackling fraud.