Lords Chamber
11:19
Baroness Penn (Conservative)
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Baroness Penn (Conservative)
health professional researchers, academics are all deeply concerned about how this is leading to identifiable changes in behaviour, language development, social skills and mental and physical health. Over 40 members of the Digital Standards for Early Years Action Group wrote to the government over a year ago to call for action in this area. But there is nothing in the early years strategy. There is nothing in the early years, foundation stage, statutory framework, and there is no public health information for family hubs, health visitors all GPPs.
So the Digital Action Group wrote again to the government last week to call for real action in this area. So could the noble Lady the Minister outline what further steps the government is going to take to address this important issue?
So the Digital Action Group wrote again to the government last week to call for real action in this area. So could the noble Lady the Minister outline what further steps the government is going to take to address this important issue?
11:20
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Yeah. >> Can I can I thank the noble Lady for what was a very useful and informative meeting that we had, informative meeting that we had, from which we have already taken further action? And she's right that this is something. And we particularly discussed in that meeting the concerns of parents for the advice that they receive. I have already, in my first answer, outlined some of the action that we're taking to provide more clarity for early years providers. But we are also working to provide parents with clear, specific advice on early years, screen time and home learning, and in advance of specific early years screen time guidance for parents.
We've streamlined content on the Best Start in Life website, an issue that she raised with us to ensure that relevant home learning content appears in search results. For screen time, we are exploring options to prioritise search results, ensuring the most relevant home learning page appears first to further strengthen discoverability. Any new specific guidance for parents on early years and screen time will also be signposted clearly on the website, and I look forward to the opportunity when the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill returns to this House for its Report stage in January.
To continue this conversation and to provide further information about action, the government is taking.
We've streamlined content on the Best Start in Life website, an issue that she raised with us to ensure that relevant home learning content appears in search results. For screen time, we are exploring options to prioritise search results, ensuring the most relevant home learning page appears first to further strengthen discoverability. Any new specific guidance for parents on early years and screen time will also be signposted clearly on the website, and I look forward to the opportunity when the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill returns to this House for its Report stage in January.
To continue this conversation and to provide further information about action, the government is taking.
11:21
Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
Important question and I think the Minister's replies have been very helpful indeed. I just want to turn to the safeguarding side of nurseries, and the Minister will be aware of the tragic occurrences of two nursery children in my colleague's constituencies of Cheadle and Twickenham. I know she has engaged with those two MPs. I wonder, could she tell us what progress is being made to actually support children, particularly in those nurseries which are part of a group of nurseries?
11:22
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Well, I think the noble Lord raises an important point. And of course, we've had other very distressing cases recently that have taken place in nurseries. My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State made a statement about action that the government is taking. But but specifically on this, we will be appointing an expert panel to inform the development of guidance for the early years sector on CCTV and digital devices within safeguarding, and the guidance will set out best practice, technical information and clear expectations about how those those devices are being used and of course, the use of CCTV.
And I'd be happy to send the noble Lord further information about the action that we've taken post that particular case.
And I'd be happy to send the noble Lord further information about the action that we've taken post that particular case.
11:23
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)
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Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)
My Lords, would my noble friend agree with me that there is an adjacent problem to the one that we are discussing? The noble Baroness Lady Pen has raised, which is actually parents own use of technology and the way that impacts on their interaction with very young children. I think most of us, if we travel on public transport, will very often see a child in a pushchair and a parent or carer using their phone and the child being completely isolated from any contact and in the support for parents.
Could she tell the House whether there will be advice to parents about how their own use of technology can impact on their ability to interact effectively with their very young children?
Could she tell the House whether there will be advice to parents about how their own use of technology can impact on their ability to interact effectively with their very young children?
11:23
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Hear, hear. note, for example, the Children's Commissioner's suggestions and advice this morning that Christmas would be a good time for us as adults to put down our phones and focus on family time and interaction with children in particular. And of course, the NHS website provides advice on the activities that are important for children's health and development. Because sometimes, of course, the issue about screen time is it displaces other really important activities. So the NHS website provides advice on the importance of sleep at all ages for good physical and mental health and wellbeing.
I'm sure noble Lords will be keen on that one, and guidelines for parents on physical activity for children under the age of five, because those types of activities, and the face to face interaction that parents can have with their children are one of the most important ways that we can ensure healthy child development.
I'm sure noble Lords will be keen on that one, and guidelines for parents on physical activity for children under the age of five, because those types of activities, and the face to face interaction that parents can have with their children are one of the most important ways that we can ensure healthy child development.
11:25
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-affiliated)
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Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-affiliated)
As it is Christmas. Parents are looking at all of the available toys, and one of the areas which concerns me is the use of AI now in toys for very young children. And does the government have any plans to look at that area? Because it is something that is of great concern. something that is of great concern.
11:25
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Well, this was an issue that we touched on with respect to educational technology in particular during the course of the bill. But there are wider developments, for example, in how we can regulate the use of AI with respect to individuals data that are being taken forward, particularly by the Information Commissioner's Office. And I think that the noble Lady raises an important point that I'm sure parents will have have borne in mind when they're thinking about the the presence that they're buying for their children.
But but she's right as well. We can't leave parents to have to make these decisions or schools or other settings to make these decisions on their own, which is why we need to keep up with the evidence in order to provide the best possible advice to parents and to education settings and others.
But but she's right as well. We can't leave parents to have to make these decisions or schools or other settings to make these decisions on their own, which is why we need to keep up with the evidence in order to provide the best possible advice to parents and to education settings and others.
11:26
Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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Baroness Barran (Conservative)
My Lords, the I very much welcome the noble Baroness. The Minister's comments about producing guidance for parents and early years settings in this area. I wondered whether she could clarify a little bit in terms of timing of that appearing, and also confirm whether or not it'll be accompanied by a public health communications campaign. campaign.
11:26
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Well, I think I've gone probably as far as I can go today in talking about the work that the government is doing in thinking about how we can improve the guidance for parents, we will have more to say about this in the near future. And as I said as well, of course, we'll have the opportunity to consider this in more detail when we come back to the Report stage of the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill. But any guidance that we produce needs does need to be health dissemination as well.
11:27
Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
What the Minister said today. But can she explain how the any DfE guidance is coordinated with the work of Ofcom under the Online Safety Act, the ICO's age appropriate design code and, of course, DHSC advice so that parents and providers receive a clear and consistent message rather than a patchwork of partial guidance.
11:27
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
Well, I think the noble Lord makes a very important point in all of this work. It's important that we are evidence led, and as I've suggested, we're developing that evidence through research that is ongoing. And secondly, that we're able to provide clear information for parents and for early years settings, for example, with respect to the youngest children, there is considerable work going on between the DfE, DSIT and Ofcom in order to make sure that both the research is coherent and the results of that research are appropriately communicated, and go alongside some of the regulatory measures that the noble Lord mentioned.
11:28
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
My Lords, there is positive >> My Lords, there is positive information in the labour market. The claimant count is falling. Over 350,000 more people have moved into 350,000 more people have moved into work this year. Real wages have risen more since July last year than they did in the first ten years. The previous government and UK growth is forecast to be the second fastest in the G7, after only the United States. However, the latest figures also highlight the challenges and the importance of our Get Britain working plan, which includes creating a new jobs and careers service, tackling economic inactivity due to ill health and delivering our youth guarantee.
11:29
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)
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Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)
The noble Lady, the Minister, omitted to mention that unemployment has now risen to 1,830,000. And perhaps most chilling of all, the number of young people without the dignity of work has risen to 735,000. Does the government now accept that the triple blow of last year's budget jobs task tax, this year's budget, increased income tax levels and the Unemployment Act, which received Royal Assent earlier today? They have all contributed to the fact that unemployment is rising to 2 million people.
What is she going to do about it?
What is she going to do about it?
11:30
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yeah. take seriously the challenge of so many young people in our country who are not in employment, not in education and not in training. What are the last government do about it? Did nothing. What is this government doing? A huge amount by Lord Sewell. What we have done in the budget is put tens of millions of pounds, hundreds of millions of pounds into a youth guarantee. We are creating a guaranteed jobs for young people who are long term unemployed on Universal Credit.
And we've got the former health secretary, Alan Milburn, digging down deep into why so many of our young people. What's the driving reason so many of them are not out there in the labour market? We are going to solve the problems we inherited. We are doing something about it.
And we've got the former health secretary, Alan Milburn, digging down deep into why so many of our young people. What's the driving reason so many of them are not out there in the labour market? We are going to solve the problems we inherited. We are doing something about it.
11:31
Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)
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Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)
My Lord, my Lords, I call on Lord Campbell-Savours who is participating remotely.
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With the jobs market, hugely influenced by the availability of training, in particular apprenticeship training, shouldn't we positively welcome the £820 we positively welcome the £820 million for the Youth Guarantee scheme, with its emphasis on quality, and isn't a lesson the quality, and isn't a lesson the government has learnt from the yobs and Community programs of the 1980s and Community programs of the 1980s that such schemes only work when they incorporate quality, real skills development and the prospect of long term employment.
Are they the hallmark of this much expanded and brilliant training programme? and brilliant training programme?
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With the jobs market, hugely influenced by the availability of training, in particular apprenticeship training, shouldn't we positively welcome the £820 we positively welcome the £820 million for the Youth Guarantee scheme, with its emphasis on quality, and isn't a lesson the quality, and isn't a lesson the government has learnt from the yobs and Community programs of the 1980s and Community programs of the 1980s that such schemes only work when they incorporate quality, real skills development and the prospect of long term employment.
Are they the hallmark of this much expanded and brilliant training programme? and brilliant training programme?
11:31
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Welcome a particularly fine question from my noble friend and and I could almost have said that myself. In fact, I maybe I will. My Lords, he makes a really important point. We need to have support in the investment of skills for young people, skills for today, skills for tomorrow, simply putting them onto some kind of make job scheme doesn't work. We actually need to be investing in them. So he's quite right. At the budget, we announced £820 million of investment into the Youth Guarantee to support young people to earn or learn, but there was another £725 million for the growth and skills levy.
And what we're doing is trying to invest in young people so that they'll find ways of getting the skills, be inspired to get out there and make a difference. But we also need to understand those who are not engaging. So could I say to the House? Alan Milburn issued a call for evidence this week and he's asking two questions. What is stopping more young people from participating in employment, education or training? And what would make the biggest difference to support more young people to participate? We want to hear from anyone with knowledge or expertise or lived experience.
So could I urge noble Lords with all their connections, let us all together try to get the answer to one of the most pressing questions facing our country.
And what we're doing is trying to invest in young people so that they'll find ways of getting the skills, be inspired to get out there and make a difference. But we also need to understand those who are not engaging. So could I say to the House? Alan Milburn issued a call for evidence this week and he's asking two questions. What is stopping more young people from participating in employment, education or training? And what would make the biggest difference to support more young people to participate? We want to hear from anyone with knowledge or expertise or lived experience.
So could I urge noble Lords with all their connections, let us all together try to get the answer to one of the most pressing questions facing our country.
11:32
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (Liberal Democrat)
My Lords. for resignations to cut jobs and save 45 million and use more. AI and many other jobs continue to be lost to AI. What strategy has the government got to ensure that its AI and tech procurements support British jobs? And if Mandation is okay for pension fund investments, where is it for government?
11:33
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yeah, yeah. my Christmas present from the Chief Whip, is all I can conclude. But the, the the noble Lady makes a makes a very, very important point. One of the things that the government as a whole is doing is looking across the piece. The truth is, it's still quite early days in working out what in the medium to long term will be the impact of the A on the economy. There is evidence that in some sectors jobs may be displaced and other sectors jobs are created.
So that's why we're understanding the full impact. The challenge for us is to make sure we equip people with the skills that enable them to compete in the markets that are to come. So there is a lot of work going on in my department, but also in in DSIT and across government monitoring this, developing strategies, and in particular investing in home grown tech companies and making sure that we have the opportunities here in which we can invest in our young people, can work.
So that's why we're understanding the full impact. The challenge for us is to make sure we equip people with the skills that enable them to compete in the markets that are to come. So there is a lot of work going on in my department, but also in in DSIT and across government monitoring this, developing strategies, and in particular investing in home grown tech companies and making sure that we have the opportunities here in which we can invest in our young people, can work.
11:34
The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)
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The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)
Lord Stern the points made about skills. I asked the Minister that the Minister look at a new report by the Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre that finds arts, culture and heritage sectors are all losing skilled employees because of low pay, limited progression and flexibility. While our freelance workers should certainly be better supported, there is concern over the levels of permanent creative staffing, including in theatre. How will the government address these concerns?
11:34
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
The noble Lord makes an excellent point, and he's a fine ambassador for the creative sectors for which I commend him. And the government is looking sector by sector and how we can support the development of skills. I'm aware that there are some quite specialist skills that we've had to work quite hard to protect because if we lose them, we won't get them back, certainly in the heritage sector. So I'm very happy to look at how our sector work can do that.
But what we're trying to do in DWP is to work with a very wide range of employers to make sure that we know what they want, what skills they need, and how we can support them in doing it. One of the things that's made the biggest difference, slightly bang on about it, is welcoming. My my noble friend Baroness Smith is the joining up of the adult skills and DWP can make a real difference. So I'll make sure that.
But what we're trying to do in DWP is to work with a very wide range of employers to make sure that we know what they want, what skills they need, and how we can support them in doing it. One of the things that's made the biggest difference, slightly bang on about it, is welcoming. My my noble friend Baroness Smith is the joining up of the adult skills and DWP can make a real difference. So I'll make sure that.
11:35
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)
My Lords, I'm afraid I'm not yet in the Christmas spirit because, as the noble Baroness herself said, there are huge challenges and in the deteriorating job deteriorating jobs market, it is a great concern that the jobs in the all important retail sector have fallen by 74,000. And the chief executive of the BRC has stated that the number of people in work is at a record low, namely 2.82 million jobs. So what is the government going to do to change the situation as a matter of urgency in this sector?
11:36
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yes. different what we call sexual work programmes in order to develop skills and support people into many of our of our areas of our economy, including hospitality and retail and many others. But can I just come back to the fact that the there are challenges across the globe? My Lords, the UK unemployment rate is firmly below the EU 27 average. The UK has the third highest employment rate among the G7, higher than Canada, higher than the USA, higher than France, higher than Italy.
So, my Lords, I fully accept that these these have been challenging times for across the globe there has been a reduction in demand for a range of reasons. But my Lords, I am confident that things are looking good. We are seeing, for example, that the vacancies have stabilised, we are seeing the interest rates are coming down and businesses getting more certainty, not least, my Lords, from the fact that we now have an Employment Rights Act.
So, my Lords, I fully accept that these these have been challenging times for across the globe there has been a reduction in demand for a range of reasons. But my Lords, I am confident that things are looking good. We are seeing, for example, that the vacancies have stabilised, we are seeing the interest rates are coming down and businesses getting more certainty, not least, my Lords, from the fact that we now have an Employment Rights Act.
11:36
Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)
Could I first say that I'm more than happy to speak to Alan Milburn
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around the Lib Dem? Just sit down. A second. If the deputies next, please.
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If the deputies next, please. Just say more than happy, my Lords, to speak to Alan Milburn, given my long experience of working with NEETs. But the question I've with NEETs. But the question I've asked the Minister is that the His Majesty's Government has two key priorities. One is around net zero priorities. One is around net zero and the other is about building the 1.5 million homes. And I want to know what is the strategy around know what is the strategy around particularly young people in apprenticeships, and ask this question because I spoke to a young person studying at Sheffield College who was doing an electrician course, and he's really stressed out that he's not able to get the apprenticeship course that he needs to actually get properly qualified and contribute to the economy, because otherwise, my Lord Jay told me he will look for a job in McDonald's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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around the Lib Dem? Just sit down. A second. If the deputies next, please.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
If the deputies next, please. Just say more than happy, my Lords, to speak to Alan Milburn, given my long experience of working with NEETs. But the question I've with NEETs. But the question I've asked the Minister is that the His Majesty's Government has two key priorities. One is around net zero priorities. One is around net zero and the other is about building the 1.5 million homes. And I want to know what is the strategy around know what is the strategy around particularly young people in apprenticeships, and ask this question because I spoke to a young person studying at Sheffield College who was doing an electrician course, and he's really stressed out that he's not able to get the apprenticeship course that he needs to actually get properly qualified and contribute to the economy, because otherwise, my Lord Jay told me he will look for a job in McDonald's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:37
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
And I'm not going to just looking for a job at McDonald's. looking for a job at McDonald's. But I don't want to see anyone not able to pursue the things that they want to do. The noble Lords, absolutely right. We've invested £600 million in a construction package. We're working closely with the industry, and we have a strategic relationship team in DWP that works with key sectors to try to make sure that if there are jobs coming on stream, we want our people to get them.
We want young people to get them. We want people who are not in the labour market to get them, those who are struggling with economic inactivity. But I am grateful to him for raising that.
We want young people to get them. We want people who are not in the labour market to get them, those who are struggling with economic inactivity. But I am grateful to him for raising that.
11:38
Lord Spellar (Labour)
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Lord Spellar (Labour)
Lord Barwell should. >> Lord Barwell should. >> Not be the the government. Look at the incredible difficulty youngsters have in getting into work with with very bureaucratic HR work with with very bureaucratic HR processes for making the application. And should they also not be saying to employers who are on contracts to the government, they need to provide a certain ratio of training places in order to qualify for being on government contracts?
11:38
Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My Lords, there are two important points. The second of those just quite often happen, and I know that the social value I know that the social value element of contracts is something that's really important that we in DWP take especially seriously on the first. I mean, like everybody else, I mean, we must all have had the experience of knowing young people, the heartbreaking experience of sending out application after application after application and getting nothing back at all. And I really understand how tough it is for businesses to manage that.
But also, I think to any employer who is able to do that, to make it as easy as possible and to support young people, that's great. One of the things we can do in DWP is to support the young people in doing that, to connect them with employers, to give them the skills and make sure they're putting the best possible application in in the first place. first place.
But also, I think to any employer who is able to do that, to make it as easy as possible and to support young people, that's great. One of the things we can do in DWP is to support the young people in doing that, to connect them with employers, to give them the skills and make sure they're putting the best possible application in in the first place. first place.
11:39
11:39
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, as a reservist, my son in law has served recently in the Balkans and may well do so again in the future. Lithuania has experienced over 600 balloon incursions and over 200 drone violations in 2025. Lithuania has requested support from NATO Counter Hybrid Support Team. The UK is the framework nation of NATO's Forward Land Forces Estonia. UK forces stationed in the Baltic states as part of NATO's forward Presence, remain safe and able to operate effectively.
There has been no change to force protection posture for UK personnel as a result of this incident. this incident.
There has been no change to force protection posture for UK personnel as a result of this incident. this incident.
11:40
Baroness Rawlings (Conservative)
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Baroness Rawlings (Conservative)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very comprehensive answer. He always gives very good answers. Thank you. Balloons. Not just for Christmas or festival treats. Sadly, these balloons can be serious weapons as we've heard. Can the Minister enlighten us further about the present deadly balloon incursions in Lithuania at the moment?
11:40
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
The the Lithuanian intelligence is that the vast majority of balloons and the drone incursions to which I've referred to are actually for criminal activity and relate to tobacco and cigarettes, mainly. But of course, that doesn't alter the fact that also what Lithuania believe, and certainly has some credibility is the fact that this is a part of of Belarus weaponizing that sort of activity in order to destabilise and disrupt Lithuania and others.
11:41
Lord Craig of Radley (Crossbench)
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Lord Craig of Radley (Crossbench)
As the. Any Royal Air Force flights been affected by these balloons, and more seriously than that, this type of activity could become more widespread. What what attempt is the government making to deal with that possibility of further attacks? For example, have they tasked the Advanced Research Inventions Agency with working on this problem?
11:41
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Looking at all the various options that we can do in order to deter the activity, and the noble and gallant Lord will know from his own experience. We certainly, through Eastern century, have tasked Royal Air Force assets to try to deter right across the eastern flank of NATO, the eastern century work and more of that will be done and indeed will be announcing in January 2026 further measures which will be taken. With respect to that, I would just point out, as I often do here, the importance of deterrence since the introduction of Eastern Century in in on the 10th of September, there has been not talking about balloons, but there have been no Russian military aircraft incursions into NATO airspace.
11:42
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
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Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
My Lords, my Lords, my Lords, my Lords.
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The media coverage of this universally describes a significant proportion of it being done by proportion of it being done by Belarus as a proxy for for Russia. Last month, Admiral Dragan, the Last month, Admiral Dragan, the head of NATO's military committee, said that the Western military alliance was considering a more alliance was considering a more aggressive or proactive stance to Russia's hybrid warfare, which this Russia's hybrid warfare, which this is. To what extent are we contributing to that process of consideration?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The media coverage of this universally describes a significant proportion of it being done by proportion of it being done by Belarus as a proxy for for Russia. Last month, Admiral Dragan, the Last month, Admiral Dragan, the head of NATO's military committee, said that the Western military alliance was considering a more alliance was considering a more aggressive or proactive stance to Russia's hybrid warfare, which this Russia's hybrid warfare, which this is. To what extent are we contributing to that process of consideration?
11:43
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
We are we are contributing to the whole range of effort to deter Belarus activity. Or Belarus acting as a Russian proxy. The Lithuania has requested, as indeed a number of states there has requested from US and NATO Counter Hybrid Support Team that will be going next week, or certainly in the next couple of weeks, to work with Lithuania to assess what is actually going on there, to assess what needs to be done and to support Lithuania and, if necessary, others in order to deter this activity and respond appropriately.
11:43
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)
Lib Dem, Lib Dem.
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For the. Next. My Lords, in a normal world, Belarus would be offering world, Belarus would be offering cooperation to stop this smuggling rather than sneering and saying Lithuania has to solve it. Lithuania has to solve it. Lithuania has offered 1 million to anybody who can work out how to deal with these balloons. What are we doing in cooperation with NATO or Centres of Excellence for hybrid and Cyber in Tallinn and in and Cyber in Tallinn and in Helsinki, to ensure that we can find ways of dealing with these, because they represent a threat to the whole of NATO.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
For the. Next. My Lords, in a normal world, Belarus would be offering world, Belarus would be offering cooperation to stop this smuggling rather than sneering and saying Lithuania has to solve it. Lithuania has to solve it. Lithuania has offered 1 million to anybody who can work out how to deal with these balloons. What are we doing in cooperation with NATO or Centres of Excellence for hybrid and Cyber in Tallinn and in and Cyber in Tallinn and in Helsinki, to ensure that we can find ways of dealing with these, because they represent a threat to the whole of NATO.
11:44
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
With the threat that they represent and the destabilising and disruption that they cause. Of course, that's right. But what we're doing is exactly what Lithuania has asked us to do. They've asked us, us with NATO to send a counter hybrid team to Lithuania to work with them to establish what they need to do and what they should do in order to deal with the threat from the balloons and indeed, some of the drone incursions that there are to deal with that threat.
And what's the most appropriate way forward. So we are doing exactly what Lithuania are asking us to do within the auspices of NATO.
And what's the most appropriate way forward. So we are doing exactly what Lithuania are asking us to do within the auspices of NATO.
11:44
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
My Lord.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Conservative announcement. And support to the government on the announcement on supporting through NATO, the United Kingdom government, having visited troops government, having visited troops in that part of the world. Myself, we do a lot of work in the Jeff as well. Can the Minister, particularly with countries in the particularly with countries in the Balkans, what extra support are we doing within the context and framework of the Jeff to ensure this threat from Belarus? We've seen challenges also in the airspace of Poland is sending a signal to those both Belarus and Russia that this will not be accepted or indeed tolerated.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Conservative announcement. And support to the government on the announcement on supporting through NATO, the United Kingdom government, having visited troops government, having visited troops in that part of the world. Myself, we do a lot of work in the Jeff as well. Can the Minister, particularly with countries in the particularly with countries in the Balkans, what extra support are we doing within the context and framework of the Jeff to ensure this threat from Belarus? We've seen challenges also in the airspace of Poland is sending a signal to those both Belarus and Russia that this will not be accepted or indeed tolerated.
11:45
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
It's an it's an important question, and one which I think both the previous government and this government have seen have sought to to actually deal with the the noble Lord will know there's a thousand British troops in Estonia as part of forward land forces. There are other defence attachés and others in support in other of the nations. He will know that there is Baltic century, which is the maritime defence in and around underwater cables in and around the Baltic. So you've got forward land forces, you've got Baltic Century and then alongside that you've got the eastern century, the eastern century, which is the aerial operation.
So both a land force level, a maritime level and indeed an air level within the auspices of NATO, this country is contributing both to deter Russia and to deal with the threats. And I think we can be proud of what we're trying to do in order to deter Russian from the activity that they're seeking to pursue. sure.
So both a land force level, a maritime level and indeed an air level within the auspices of NATO, this country is contributing both to deter Russia and to deal with the threats. And I think we can be proud of what we're trying to do in order to deter Russian from the activity that they're seeking to pursue. sure.
11:46
Lord Beamish (Labour)
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Lord Beamish (Labour)
My noble. wish to thank members of our armed forces and security services who will be working over Christmas, both at home and abroad, to keep us all safe. The Baltic states are on the front line against Russian aggression, are doing a sterling job in terms of the efforts that not only their armed forces, their populations are taking forward. But can I ask my noble friend, what more NATO partners can do in terms of meeting the defence expenditure goals that were set at The Hague earlier this year?
11:46
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, first of all, can I join my my, my noble friend in in his congratulations, but also the the recognition that we give to our armed forces personnel who are serving and also their families who stand behind them. And I think it's important this time of year in particular, and I know my friend has just done and the whole house has joined him to, to to recognise that discussions are ongoing about how we can meet the NATO targets with respect to expenditure, how we can deal with that.
But whilst those discussions are going on around expenditure and budgets, what I would say to to the House and to my noble friend and others, we can also point to the many things we are already doing, whether it be through RAF fighter support in within eastern century to the troops that we're committing, whether it's to the maritime support through Baltic Warden or indeed whether it's through responding to the request directly from the Lithuanian government, through NATO to provide this cyber cyber support team and whatever is needed, we will do it.
And I say again, in order to stop Russia and the aggression we face, they have to be deterred. And as I said to the noble and gallant Lord, I think the fact that since the 10th of September, with the adoption by NATO of eastern century, there have been no Russian military incursions into NATO airspace. And I think that shows all of us the value of deterrence.
But whilst those discussions are going on around expenditure and budgets, what I would say to to the House and to my noble friend and others, we can also point to the many things we are already doing, whether it be through RAF fighter support in within eastern century to the troops that we're committing, whether it's to the maritime support through Baltic Warden or indeed whether it's through responding to the request directly from the Lithuanian government, through NATO to provide this cyber cyber support team and whatever is needed, we will do it.
And I say again, in order to stop Russia and the aggression we face, they have to be deterred. And as I said to the noble and gallant Lord, I think the fact that since the 10th of September, with the adoption by NATO of eastern century, there have been no Russian military incursions into NATO airspace. And I think that shows all of us the value of deterrence.
11:48
11:48
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Yeah. us it's cigarettes and tobacco smuggling that in the vast majority of cases, with respect to the balloons and the drones, they see it as criminal activity. But what they're saying to us is the weaponization of that criminal activity, which is being used by Belarus and Belarus as a proxy to, to disrupt and to destabilise, but just to in answer to that, that's why the cyber cyber hybrid team under the auspices of NATO is going to Lithuania.
It's going there to talk to them about what it is specifically that they believe is necessary in order to both deter, but also to deal with the threat that they face. And I think that's the proper way forward.
It's going there to talk to them about what it is specifically that they believe is necessary in order to both deter, but also to deal with the threat that they face. And I think that's the proper way forward.
11:49
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
Thank my noble friend.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
May be approaching Christmas, but the people of Ukraine will face but the people of Ukraine will face no peace. Yesterday, Lord Hannay highlighted the comments of the head of MI6, the Chief of Defence head of MI6, the Chief of Defence Staff, to which he might have added the secretary general of NATO, that we're planning for war. A very we're planning for war. A very clear statement that starts to match the passion that Lord Coaker represents in this House every time represents in this House every time he speaks about this issue.
But I do wonder why our government and ourselves are not planning to increase our spending on defence in 2030, or increase it again 2035. Our opponents are doing something now. Isn't it time to redress that priority?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
May be approaching Christmas, but the people of Ukraine will face but the people of Ukraine will face no peace. Yesterday, Lord Hannay highlighted the comments of the head of MI6, the Chief of Defence head of MI6, the Chief of Defence Staff, to which he might have added the secretary general of NATO, that we're planning for war. A very we're planning for war. A very clear statement that starts to match the passion that Lord Coaker represents in this House every time represents in this House every time he speaks about this issue.
But I do wonder why our government and ourselves are not planning to increase our spending on defence in 2030, or increase it again 2035. Our opponents are doing something now. Isn't it time to redress that priority?
11:49
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
The noble Lord will know the the the defence spending policy of the government, and he and others will no doubt continue to to make the case as they do. But all I would say is that the I think as we approach Christmas and beyond and the search for peace goes on in a way which is consistent with what Ukraine would want, I think this country can be proud of what it's doing with respect to Ukraine, how it stood up for the people of Ukraine, defended freedom, defended democracy and defended the, the, the, the international borders that that international law represents.
There will be and the noble Lord will continue to, to push the case for defence spending. But even within the auspices of the current spending and the increases that the government have agreed to over the next couple of years, there will be no doubt that we will stand up to Russian aggression, we will seek to deter Russian aggression, and we will stand with the Ukrainian people in defence of freedom and democracy.
There will be and the noble Lord will continue to, to push the case for defence spending. But even within the auspices of the current spending and the increases that the government have agreed to over the next couple of years, there will be no doubt that we will stand up to Russian aggression, we will seek to deter Russian aggression, and we will stand with the Ukrainian people in defence of freedom and democracy.
11:50
11:51
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)
As we head towards the Christmas recess, as we as we to 2025 draws recess, as we as we to 2025 draws to an end, it is nice to have a moment to reflect on the excellent work of the House and the teams work of the House and the teams that support us. I hope noble Lords will find this more jolly than my usual reminders about short questions and references to the companion, before turning to companion, before turning to individual tributes, I want to start by thanking the work of all the staff across the house.
A team of 700 strong. I will not attempt to name all teams through fear and missing some that are equally as important, but the house simply would not function but work. Each and every one of the people who support us and our vital scrutiny could not be done. I know I speak for the whole house when I say thank you, your heart for your hard work. We appreciate everything you do for us. We all have examples of staff going the extra mile in service of the house and shown us a unique kindness.
I now turn to some individual members of staff who have retired from the House this year. I will name a few and my usual channels colleagues will also name when they speak. Firstly, my Lords, I pay tribute to Carol Roberts, a valued member of the housekeeping team who retired in April. Carol worked in the team for just under 20 years and was involved in managing some high profile and important areas, including the second floor galleries above the chamber. Carol also looked after a much loved and used by noble Lords.
The library has retired to a more time relaxing with family and friends, including much overseas travel. We wish her well. Secondly, following the library theme, I give thanks to Christine Martin, a senior library assistant who retired in July after 23 years. Christine started in 2002 looking after the main Palace Library suite, keeping its ship shape and tidy for members and ensuring they had newspapers to read no mean feat when navigating the height of those library ladders. In 2007, Christine was promoted to Senior Library Assistant and became the library's quartermaster.
Christine had left a lasting impression on all colleagues with a calm demeanour, sense of humour, teamwork and kind counsel, always ready to lend a hand in a crisis. Her help was invaluable when the library had a major flood in 2008 and during Covid, when she was instrumental in keeping the library running. We wish her a well deserved and enjoyable retirement, attending to her garden and putting her feet up next. My Lords, I pay tribute to Gordon Rock, a senior doorkeeper who is due to leave us on the 31st of December.
Gordon started work as a precision engineer in toolmaker. In 1977. He joined the Royal Marines in 1986 and served his country until 2008. He joined as a doorkeeper in 2012. Since his promotion to senior doorkeeper, he has enjoyed keeping everybody in step, including during the importance of visits for President Macron, Prime Minister Trudeau and President Zelensky. Although not related to Baroness Rock and I have checked, she's very happy to me to mention this. They have huge respect for each other.
I am told by the doorkeeper team that he does refer to her as Auntie. A few years ago I did the Armed Forces parliamentary scheme and Gordon came up to me and said, I understand you're going to a particular Army base at the weekend. I said, yes, I was. He said, I've, I've locked your friends down there and I've, I've given them a briefing and they're all waiting for you. I'm pleased to report I'm very relieved that I had a wonderful time.
And I wish Gordon a very restful and long retirement. Yeah. Finally, my Lords, I must pay a special thanks to Fiona Channon, who worked in the heart of government and Parliament for over 30 years, first in the civil service and finally since 2019, as a much loved and admired and respected Deputy Yeoman Usher. I know throughout her roles in the Civil service, Fiona worked with a number of colleagues, including my noble friends Baroness Harman and Baroness Jay of Paddington, alongside other noble Lords, Fiona went from the civil service to lead a number of important functions in the House of Commons, including as Director of Accommodation and Logistics, a good training ground for the ceremonial ceremonial wonders of our Lordships' House.
Fiona had exceptional eye for detail and was instrumental in the delivery of a number of critical events, including the funeral of the late Majesty Queen Elizabeth and the coronation of His Majesty King Charles. I'm told that Fiona was able to enjoy over 1000 sitting days and at a time in the House of Lords, and is well known for never ending patience and calm manner in the face of a crisis and a long day. Whilst Fiona was well acquainted with the building, I'm also told the building was equally wanted to give something back to Fiona when she was attacked by a decapitated pigeon in state court near the Guy Fawkes plaque, colleagues were able to rush to rescue a lender a shirt to enable her to continue her duties that day.
I hope she enjoyed a slightly slower pace and a well deserved actual rest without any pigeons. In addition to individual members of staff, I want to thank all colleagues across the House for their good humour and support. I love the House very much and I'm very privileged to be the Government Chief Whip and the captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms. I do my best to be accessible to everyone and be able to handle issues as they arise, and I thank all members across the House for their friendly games with me all throughout the year.
I really, really appreciate that the House has reviewed 70 bills this year alone, and we are always and we always manage to debate topics, even the most difficult topics, with kindness and respect. This extends especially, of course, to my usual channel colleagues, because while sometimes we have difficult conversations throughout the year, and I'm sure we've got many more to look forward to next year, I appreciate the continued support and frank discussions. I have huge respect for the noble Lady Baroness Williams of Trafford, the noble Lord Lord Stoneham of Droxford and the noble Lady Earl of Kinnoull.
We can usually smile and laugh in between more difficult conversations, and I've got each of them as good friends. I hope we can continue to make progress together in guiding the House through its important work. Finally, my Lords, it seems a shame to waste opportunity not to announce another recess date, as I fear colleagues are already getting anxious to begin their Christmas holidays in 2026, perhaps even as a present for a loved one. I therefore pleased to tell the House the subject of the usual but not very festive caveat.
It is subject to the progress of business and house. I intend for the House to rise for the Christmas recess next year, on Thursday, the 17th of December 2026, and return on Tuesday the 5th of January 2027. I hope colleagues will consider this a well-deserved Christmas gift, as I think it important that noble Lords and staff have time to plan for activities with family and friends outside the house. I wish everyone across the house and all teams so expertise supporting us.
A very Merry Christmas and merry, merry, Merry Christmas and restful recess. A very happy New Year. I look forward to seeing all back on the 5th of January for a three line whip. Hey!
A team of 700 strong. I will not attempt to name all teams through fear and missing some that are equally as important, but the house simply would not function but work. Each and every one of the people who support us and our vital scrutiny could not be done. I know I speak for the whole house when I say thank you, your heart for your hard work. We appreciate everything you do for us. We all have examples of staff going the extra mile in service of the house and shown us a unique kindness.
I now turn to some individual members of staff who have retired from the House this year. I will name a few and my usual channels colleagues will also name when they speak. Firstly, my Lords, I pay tribute to Carol Roberts, a valued member of the housekeeping team who retired in April. Carol worked in the team for just under 20 years and was involved in managing some high profile and important areas, including the second floor galleries above the chamber. Carol also looked after a much loved and used by noble Lords.
The library has retired to a more time relaxing with family and friends, including much overseas travel. We wish her well. Secondly, following the library theme, I give thanks to Christine Martin, a senior library assistant who retired in July after 23 years. Christine started in 2002 looking after the main Palace Library suite, keeping its ship shape and tidy for members and ensuring they had newspapers to read no mean feat when navigating the height of those library ladders. In 2007, Christine was promoted to Senior Library Assistant and became the library's quartermaster.
Christine had left a lasting impression on all colleagues with a calm demeanour, sense of humour, teamwork and kind counsel, always ready to lend a hand in a crisis. Her help was invaluable when the library had a major flood in 2008 and during Covid, when she was instrumental in keeping the library running. We wish her a well deserved and enjoyable retirement, attending to her garden and putting her feet up next. My Lords, I pay tribute to Gordon Rock, a senior doorkeeper who is due to leave us on the 31st of December.
Gordon started work as a precision engineer in toolmaker. In 1977. He joined the Royal Marines in 1986 and served his country until 2008. He joined as a doorkeeper in 2012. Since his promotion to senior doorkeeper, he has enjoyed keeping everybody in step, including during the importance of visits for President Macron, Prime Minister Trudeau and President Zelensky. Although not related to Baroness Rock and I have checked, she's very happy to me to mention this. They have huge respect for each other.
I am told by the doorkeeper team that he does refer to her as Auntie. A few years ago I did the Armed Forces parliamentary scheme and Gordon came up to me and said, I understand you're going to a particular Army base at the weekend. I said, yes, I was. He said, I've, I've locked your friends down there and I've, I've given them a briefing and they're all waiting for you. I'm pleased to report I'm very relieved that I had a wonderful time.
And I wish Gordon a very restful and long retirement. Yeah. Finally, my Lords, I must pay a special thanks to Fiona Channon, who worked in the heart of government and Parliament for over 30 years, first in the civil service and finally since 2019, as a much loved and admired and respected Deputy Yeoman Usher. I know throughout her roles in the Civil service, Fiona worked with a number of colleagues, including my noble friends Baroness Harman and Baroness Jay of Paddington, alongside other noble Lords, Fiona went from the civil service to lead a number of important functions in the House of Commons, including as Director of Accommodation and Logistics, a good training ground for the ceremonial ceremonial wonders of our Lordships' House.
Fiona had exceptional eye for detail and was instrumental in the delivery of a number of critical events, including the funeral of the late Majesty Queen Elizabeth and the coronation of His Majesty King Charles. I'm told that Fiona was able to enjoy over 1000 sitting days and at a time in the House of Lords, and is well known for never ending patience and calm manner in the face of a crisis and a long day. Whilst Fiona was well acquainted with the building, I'm also told the building was equally wanted to give something back to Fiona when she was attacked by a decapitated pigeon in state court near the Guy Fawkes plaque, colleagues were able to rush to rescue a lender a shirt to enable her to continue her duties that day.
I hope she enjoyed a slightly slower pace and a well deserved actual rest without any pigeons. In addition to individual members of staff, I want to thank all colleagues across the House for their good humour and support. I love the House very much and I'm very privileged to be the Government Chief Whip and the captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms. I do my best to be accessible to everyone and be able to handle issues as they arise, and I thank all members across the House for their friendly games with me all throughout the year.
I really, really appreciate that the House has reviewed 70 bills this year alone, and we are always and we always manage to debate topics, even the most difficult topics, with kindness and respect. This extends especially, of course, to my usual channel colleagues, because while sometimes we have difficult conversations throughout the year, and I'm sure we've got many more to look forward to next year, I appreciate the continued support and frank discussions. I have huge respect for the noble Lady Baroness Williams of Trafford, the noble Lord Lord Stoneham of Droxford and the noble Lady Earl of Kinnoull.
We can usually smile and laugh in between more difficult conversations, and I've got each of them as good friends. I hope we can continue to make progress together in guiding the House through its important work. Finally, my Lords, it seems a shame to waste opportunity not to announce another recess date, as I fear colleagues are already getting anxious to begin their Christmas holidays in 2026, perhaps even as a present for a loved one. I therefore pleased to tell the House the subject of the usual but not very festive caveat.
It is subject to the progress of business and house. I intend for the House to rise for the Christmas recess next year, on Thursday, the 17th of December 2026, and return on Tuesday the 5th of January 2027. I hope colleagues will consider this a well-deserved Christmas gift, as I think it important that noble Lords and staff have time to plan for activities with family and friends outside the house. I wish everyone across the house and all teams so expertise supporting us.
A very Merry Christmas and merry, merry, Merry Christmas and restful recess. A very happy New Year. I look forward to seeing all back on the 5th of January for a three line whip. Hey!
11:58
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)
Hey hey.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Sometimes in this house it feels like our years should be measured in dog years, particularly when in dog years, particularly when you're in opposition. But as this year draws to a close, it is a pleasure to follow the Government pleasure to follow the Government Chief Whip in paying tribute to those who make the work of this House possible, but who will now be House possible, but who will now be leaving us for pastures new. All staff members play a crucial role not only in the operation of this House, but their kindness and courtesy make for a welcoming place for all of us.
Xiao DeFreitas, more affectionately known as Alberto, began his career just before the turn of this century in the dining room. He soon became a familiar face, successfully going on to manage events in the Chumley Room and the terrace. Since 2018, he's been bar manager for the Woolsack, where he's been keeping morale high on the parliamentary estate throughout his time here. He was very well liked by his colleagues and regulars at the Woolsack. My Lords, he would be much missed and we wish him and his family very well for the future.
Yes, Neil Baverstock will be leaving Black Rod office this Christmas. For the past 12 years, he's been known for his unfailing dependability as the 23rd Yeoman Usher, the longest serving my Lords for 65 years. His sense of public duty from when he trained at Sandhurst until now is one from which we can all take inspiration. He has been a model of high standards, with a very cool head in challenging moments, and I am told that his buzz phrases are now a permanent part of parliamentary folklore.
My favourite has to be my Lords. I'm going to run through the plan. I must be clear this is a plan, not a must be clear this is a plan, not a discussion document. He has certainly left his mark being trusted with the Palace's arrangement for the late Queen Elizabeth II lying in state and Operation Marquis. My Lords, we know that behind every good man is a good woman. And his wife, Alison. We must thank for her support.
This is a legacy of which they should both be proud, and they leave with
**** Possible New Speaker ****
our sincere gratitude. Yeah. I also pay tribute to Sally
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I also pay tribute to Sally Carter, who's been with us for 36 years working for Lords Hansard and seen by all as a wonderful seen by all as a wonderful colleague. In that time, she has worked with no fewer than five editors, providing a steady hand editors, providing a steady hand and no doubt a calming and knowledgeable presence throughout knowledgeable presence throughout the occasional IT crises as a screen corrector. And we've seen many things corrected. Proof reader. We've seen many things smoothed out in the reading personal assistant and finally, gatekeeper for written answers and questions.
She was known to be efficient and effective in these important roles. The Lords Hansard team won't be the same without her, but we hope she enjoys a very happy and well-deserved retirement. Finally, my Lords, I come to Andrew McCaw, who joined the House in 1984 and who is now leaving us after 40 years, 42 years of exceptional service. Over the course of his career, he has served as the clerk to the Science and Technology Committee, private Secretary to the Leader of the House and Government Chief Whip, clerk to the journals, Principal Clerk of Select Committees, Finance Director and Clerk of Legislation.
In his role as Clerk of Legislation in particular, he oversaw the handling of an unprecedented number of amendments during the UK's exit from the European Union at a time when procedural matters. Matters could be said as challenging. His dedication and professionalism certainly shone through those difficult years and we have him to thank for members explanatory statements, accompanying amendments, as well as several other innovations we can now imagine not working with working without. He is known for going over and above the call of duty and outside of the house, supporting children in his local church, volunteering to help the homeless, and as a school governor.
Moreover, I understand, my Lords, that he and his family were family were hosts under the homes for Ukraine scheme. For this and for all he has done for this House, I thank him and I know that we are all waiting anticipation as
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to what he does next. Yeah. Finally, my Lords, may I join
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Finally, my Lords, may I join the noble Lord, the Government Chief Whip, in in paying tribute to the usual channels. We do a the usual channels. We do a contrary to. Sometimes appearances work very well together. I did mention at this despatch box last mention at this despatch box last year that the government Chief Whip lack of biscuit provision in lack of biscuit provision in meetings that has continued. It has it has done nothing for my waistline but something for my waistline, but nothing to denote the usual operation of the usual channels.
So my wish all staff and noble Lords, a very happy Christmas and look forward to working with everyone in the New Year!
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Sometimes in this house it feels like our years should be measured in dog years, particularly when in dog years, particularly when you're in opposition. But as this year draws to a close, it is a pleasure to follow the Government pleasure to follow the Government Chief Whip in paying tribute to those who make the work of this House possible, but who will now be House possible, but who will now be leaving us for pastures new. All staff members play a crucial role not only in the operation of this House, but their kindness and courtesy make for a welcoming place for all of us.
Xiao DeFreitas, more affectionately known as Alberto, began his career just before the turn of this century in the dining room. He soon became a familiar face, successfully going on to manage events in the Chumley Room and the terrace. Since 2018, he's been bar manager for the Woolsack, where he's been keeping morale high on the parliamentary estate throughout his time here. He was very well liked by his colleagues and regulars at the Woolsack. My Lords, he would be much missed and we wish him and his family very well for the future.
Yes, Neil Baverstock will be leaving Black Rod office this Christmas. For the past 12 years, he's been known for his unfailing dependability as the 23rd Yeoman Usher, the longest serving my Lords for 65 years. His sense of public duty from when he trained at Sandhurst until now is one from which we can all take inspiration. He has been a model of high standards, with a very cool head in challenging moments, and I am told that his buzz phrases are now a permanent part of parliamentary folklore.
My favourite has to be my Lords. I'm going to run through the plan. I must be clear this is a plan, not a must be clear this is a plan, not a discussion document. He has certainly left his mark being trusted with the Palace's arrangement for the late Queen Elizabeth II lying in state and Operation Marquis. My Lords, we know that behind every good man is a good woman. And his wife, Alison. We must thank for her support.
This is a legacy of which they should both be proud, and they leave with
**** Possible New Speaker ****
our sincere gratitude. Yeah. I also pay tribute to Sally
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I also pay tribute to Sally Carter, who's been with us for 36 years working for Lords Hansard and seen by all as a wonderful seen by all as a wonderful colleague. In that time, she has worked with no fewer than five editors, providing a steady hand editors, providing a steady hand and no doubt a calming and knowledgeable presence throughout knowledgeable presence throughout the occasional IT crises as a screen corrector. And we've seen many things corrected. Proof reader. We've seen many things smoothed out in the reading personal assistant and finally, gatekeeper for written answers and questions.
She was known to be efficient and effective in these important roles. The Lords Hansard team won't be the same without her, but we hope she enjoys a very happy and well-deserved retirement. Finally, my Lords, I come to Andrew McCaw, who joined the House in 1984 and who is now leaving us after 40 years, 42 years of exceptional service. Over the course of his career, he has served as the clerk to the Science and Technology Committee, private Secretary to the Leader of the House and Government Chief Whip, clerk to the journals, Principal Clerk of Select Committees, Finance Director and Clerk of Legislation.
In his role as Clerk of Legislation in particular, he oversaw the handling of an unprecedented number of amendments during the UK's exit from the European Union at a time when procedural matters. Matters could be said as challenging. His dedication and professionalism certainly shone through those difficult years and we have him to thank for members explanatory statements, accompanying amendments, as well as several other innovations we can now imagine not working with working without. He is known for going over and above the call of duty and outside of the house, supporting children in his local church, volunteering to help the homeless, and as a school governor.
Moreover, I understand, my Lords, that he and his family were family were hosts under the homes for Ukraine scheme. For this and for all he has done for this House, I thank him and I know that we are all waiting anticipation as
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to what he does next. Yeah. Finally, my Lords, may I join
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Finally, my Lords, may I join the noble Lord, the Government Chief Whip, in in paying tribute to the usual channels. We do a the usual channels. We do a contrary to. Sometimes appearances work very well together. I did mention at this despatch box last mention at this despatch box last year that the government Chief Whip lack of biscuit provision in lack of biscuit provision in meetings that has continued. It has it has done nothing for my waistline but something for my waistline, but nothing to denote the usual operation of the usual channels.
So my wish all staff and noble Lords, a very happy Christmas and look forward to working with everyone in the New Year!
12:04
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (Liberal Democrat)
Yay! >> Yay! >> My Lords, in continuing these staff tributes from the Liberal staff tributes from the Liberal Democrat benches, I want to talk about three Pacific individuals. Firstly, Ola Dyer, who was a valued member of the housekeeping team. Ola spent just 20 years as an early housekeeper, starting in Millbank House with the cleaning contractors and then later transferring to the in-house team, cleaning high profile areas of the House of Lords, including the first floor offices of the West Front and covering duties in the chamber and the Royal Gallery.
Housekeepers are vital to the functioning of the house and the house. Thanks Ola for her hard work over two decades. She retired in September to spend more time
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with her family overseas. We wish her all health and happiness. Amen.
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Amen. Secondly, I want to talk about Nicholas Beech, who retired as deputy counsel to the Chairman of committees in the House of Lords at the end of October. After a the end of October. After a remarkable 40 year career as a lawyer in Whitehall and Westminster, lawyer in Whitehall and Westminster, Nick joined the Counsel's Office in the House of Lords in 2010. With 25 years experience as a government lawyer in the Treasury Solicitor's Department, the Department of Education, the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, he came to us with a well-deserved reputation as a public law expert, with an enviable reputation as a draughter of Statutory Instruments.
This expertise has been put to very effective use over the last 15 years, particularly in the House's scrutiny of delegated powers in bills and in its scrutiny of Statutory Instruments. The burden of scrutinising secondary legislation grew considerably during the Brexit and pandemic years. Nick rose admirably through the challenge with quiet professionalism of the highest order, combined with his trademark patience and cool and good humour. Nick also spent many years advising on the legal aspects of the restoration and renewal.
He assisted with the transfer of the Parliamentary Archives to the National Archives at Kew, and he advised the archives on the loan to Parliament in 2015. Of the four original copies of Magna Carta, Nick could always be relied upon to keep cool in a crisis, and this ability will be put to good use in Nick's retirement. He hopes to become an expert ice cream maker as well as a cake baker. We wish him
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all the best in these ventures and retirement. Yeah.
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Yeah. Finally, Amanda McGrath is retiring on the 31st September retiring on the 31st September after 13 years as a committee assistant and later a committee operations officer in the Lords Committee office. During her career in the Lords, Amanda developed a in the Lords, Amanda developed a specialism working for several subcommittees of the former European Union Select Committee, including the Home Affairs Subcommittee, the Justice Committee, and the Security and Justice Subcommittee. She's been a committee operations officer for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee since it was established in 2021, guiding it through several high profile inquiries and handling a high volume of sensitive evidence.
She has organised many committee visits, including the Justice and Home Affairs Committee visits to His Majesty's Prisons, Belmarsh and ISIS, and getting them out again. The Port of Dover, Eurotunnel and Eurostar terminal at St Pancras. Before joining the committee office, Amanda was a civil service in the Ministry of Defence. She is planning a number of projects in retirement and will spend more time travelling at the theatre. We wish her all the very best and all health and happiness again.
May I join in the tributes to my colleagues in the usual channels and to the House as large and as we near the Christmas recess. Can I take this opportunity from these benches to wish everyone, members and staff, a very happy Christmas? A good rest over the two and a half weeks and all the very best for the new year. new year.
Housekeepers are vital to the functioning of the house and the house. Thanks Ola for her hard work over two decades. She retired in September to spend more time
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with her family overseas. We wish her all health and happiness. Amen.
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Amen. Secondly, I want to talk about Nicholas Beech, who retired as deputy counsel to the Chairman of committees in the House of Lords at the end of October. After a the end of October. After a remarkable 40 year career as a lawyer in Whitehall and Westminster, lawyer in Whitehall and Westminster, Nick joined the Counsel's Office in the House of Lords in 2010. With 25 years experience as a government lawyer in the Treasury Solicitor's Department, the Department of Education, the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, he came to us with a well-deserved reputation as a public law expert, with an enviable reputation as a draughter of Statutory Instruments.
This expertise has been put to very effective use over the last 15 years, particularly in the House's scrutiny of delegated powers in bills and in its scrutiny of Statutory Instruments. The burden of scrutinising secondary legislation grew considerably during the Brexit and pandemic years. Nick rose admirably through the challenge with quiet professionalism of the highest order, combined with his trademark patience and cool and good humour. Nick also spent many years advising on the legal aspects of the restoration and renewal.
He assisted with the transfer of the Parliamentary Archives to the National Archives at Kew, and he advised the archives on the loan to Parliament in 2015. Of the four original copies of Magna Carta, Nick could always be relied upon to keep cool in a crisis, and this ability will be put to good use in Nick's retirement. He hopes to become an expert ice cream maker as well as a cake baker. We wish him
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all the best in these ventures and retirement. Yeah.
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Yeah. Finally, Amanda McGrath is retiring on the 31st September retiring on the 31st September after 13 years as a committee assistant and later a committee operations officer in the Lords Committee office. During her career in the Lords, Amanda developed a in the Lords, Amanda developed a specialism working for several subcommittees of the former European Union Select Committee, including the Home Affairs Subcommittee, the Justice Committee, and the Security and Justice Subcommittee. She's been a committee operations officer for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee since it was established in 2021, guiding it through several high profile inquiries and handling a high volume of sensitive evidence.
She has organised many committee visits, including the Justice and Home Affairs Committee visits to His Majesty's Prisons, Belmarsh and ISIS, and getting them out again. The Port of Dover, Eurotunnel and Eurostar terminal at St Pancras. Before joining the committee office, Amanda was a civil service in the Ministry of Defence. She is planning a number of projects in retirement and will spend more time travelling at the theatre. We wish her all the very best and all health and happiness again.
May I join in the tributes to my colleagues in the usual channels and to the House as large and as we near the Christmas recess. Can I take this opportunity from these benches to wish everyone, members and staff, a very happy Christmas? A good rest over the two and a half weeks and all the very best for the new year. new year.
12:08
The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)
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The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)
My Lord. Sir, can I begin by associating myself.
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My other fellow usual channels where the staff of the House are concerned, and say again of the concerned, and say again of the kindness and of the courtesy, and the huge help that those staff provide to crossbench and all provide to crossbench and all members, and I'm very grateful before I begin to pay tribute to four very special colleagues, I four very special colleagues, I would particularly reflect on the moment in March of the confetti in moment in March of the confetti in the chamber where protesters interrupted our proceedings by throwing leaflets from the gallery.
Our doorkeepers ushered them away, clutching as they were leaflets that called for aristocrats out, nurses in my noble friend Baroness Watkins, I felt, came very close to declaring a conflict, and that particular time. But thanks to the skill of the Doorkeepers and we were back up and running in just four minutes. And I do feel that we owe a great debt and give great thanks to our doorkeepers and their head doorkeeper, John Ingram. And I, for one, am very, very grateful for them.
My first tribute is to David Pryor. David worked in the parliamentary archives, joining in April 1992 as the assistant clerk of the records, a role latterly not so Snappily renamed Head of Public Services and Outreach, he has transformed the way that our archives are presented to the public through many exhibitions, both large and small. He oversaw loans such as the Stamp Act 1765, which went to the USA, and this was the legislation which gave rise to the cry no taxation without representation and great succour to the independence movement.
Over there he arranged for the Articles of Union between England and Scotland, and the 1707 Act of Union, to be displayed at the Scottish Parliament in 2007, which was the bicentenary, and most remarkably, David arranged for the four inward loans for the four surviving Magna carta's that were displayed in the Robing Room in February 2015, a task that others observed was more complex than organising a Western Balkans conference. I've not mentioned his technological thrust in bringing the archive to our public, for which I hope you'll forgive me, but I thank him for all 33 years and wish him well going forward.
The Mary Nottingham and Mandy Marks retired as senior internal auditors in September. Mary and Mandy actually met when working for the Ministry of Defence Internal Audit department, and while Mary moved to the House sometime before Mandy, the role they took on when Mandy arrived was quickly adapted so that they were a job share. They brought great audit experience to the Lords team with humour and professionalism and no hint of sinister purpose, an approach that was much appreciated by all that they worked with during their parliamentary careers.
They were consummate team players. That is not to say they didn't have strong opinions as their colleagues recall, their head of section observed that they were masters of upwards management, always done with such charming subtlety that to this day he was never entirely sure whether he was managing them or they were managing him. I think we know the answer. Anyway. Mary and Mandy will take their opinions on that question into a long and very well earned retirement, which I understand will include visits to Cyprus, where they both used to own homes.
They were wonderful colleagues and respected professionals, and were all very grateful to them for their contribution to the House Army. Finally, I pay tribute to one of our greatest generals in our longest running war. I speak, of course, of the war against moth and mouse. Maureen Schultz. She led the early morning sorties on the front line of the principal floor corridor for 27 years before retiring in November. She started as a housekeeper, was promoted to a team leader and latterly had a team of 15 housekeepers.
Her particular personal theatre of battle was the bit of the principal floor corridor that included the crossbench offices. Well, we try to lock away our admittedly plentiful rations of crumbly shortbread. We have been guilty of providing sustenance for the energy, but despite this, and at the early hour, when I tended to run across her, she always greeted me. And indeed all of our staff and all those who met her with a smile and a kind word, and she will now spend more time with her children, Ben and Wayne, and her grandchildren, Finlay and Fiona.
And we wish her all the best and we will all keep fighting the Great War on her behalf. It only remains for me to thank my fellow usual channels. I can't tell you how generous they are constantly to the crossbench in all sorts of little ways, and I and the crossbench are all very grateful to them. And I have to say that it is very good fun in the usual channels. I would take issue about the biscuits because there was a metre long, a lot of biscuits with the Chief Whip, one metre long lot of Jaffa cakes, and at one point and we're hoping to get more of those, I think, in there.
But but it is, it is in a great spirit that we try and make sure that things work in the house. And I pay tribute to to them very much. And with that said, the only remaining thing is on on behalf of our benches can I wish everybody, members and staff, a very happy Christmas here.
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My other fellow usual channels where the staff of the House are concerned, and say again of the concerned, and say again of the kindness and of the courtesy, and the huge help that those staff provide to crossbench and all provide to crossbench and all members, and I'm very grateful before I begin to pay tribute to four very special colleagues, I four very special colleagues, I would particularly reflect on the moment in March of the confetti in moment in March of the confetti in the chamber where protesters interrupted our proceedings by throwing leaflets from the gallery.
Our doorkeepers ushered them away, clutching as they were leaflets that called for aristocrats out, nurses in my noble friend Baroness Watkins, I felt, came very close to declaring a conflict, and that particular time. But thanks to the skill of the Doorkeepers and we were back up and running in just four minutes. And I do feel that we owe a great debt and give great thanks to our doorkeepers and their head doorkeeper, John Ingram. And I, for one, am very, very grateful for them.
My first tribute is to David Pryor. David worked in the parliamentary archives, joining in April 1992 as the assistant clerk of the records, a role latterly not so Snappily renamed Head of Public Services and Outreach, he has transformed the way that our archives are presented to the public through many exhibitions, both large and small. He oversaw loans such as the Stamp Act 1765, which went to the USA, and this was the legislation which gave rise to the cry no taxation without representation and great succour to the independence movement.
Over there he arranged for the Articles of Union between England and Scotland, and the 1707 Act of Union, to be displayed at the Scottish Parliament in 2007, which was the bicentenary, and most remarkably, David arranged for the four inward loans for the four surviving Magna carta's that were displayed in the Robing Room in February 2015, a task that others observed was more complex than organising a Western Balkans conference. I've not mentioned his technological thrust in bringing the archive to our public, for which I hope you'll forgive me, but I thank him for all 33 years and wish him well going forward.
The Mary Nottingham and Mandy Marks retired as senior internal auditors in September. Mary and Mandy actually met when working for the Ministry of Defence Internal Audit department, and while Mary moved to the House sometime before Mandy, the role they took on when Mandy arrived was quickly adapted so that they were a job share. They brought great audit experience to the Lords team with humour and professionalism and no hint of sinister purpose, an approach that was much appreciated by all that they worked with during their parliamentary careers.
They were consummate team players. That is not to say they didn't have strong opinions as their colleagues recall, their head of section observed that they were masters of upwards management, always done with such charming subtlety that to this day he was never entirely sure whether he was managing them or they were managing him. I think we know the answer. Anyway. Mary and Mandy will take their opinions on that question into a long and very well earned retirement, which I understand will include visits to Cyprus, where they both used to own homes.
They were wonderful colleagues and respected professionals, and were all very grateful to them for their contribution to the House Army. Finally, I pay tribute to one of our greatest generals in our longest running war. I speak, of course, of the war against moth and mouse. Maureen Schultz. She led the early morning sorties on the front line of the principal floor corridor for 27 years before retiring in November. She started as a housekeeper, was promoted to a team leader and latterly had a team of 15 housekeepers.
Her particular personal theatre of battle was the bit of the principal floor corridor that included the crossbench offices. Well, we try to lock away our admittedly plentiful rations of crumbly shortbread. We have been guilty of providing sustenance for the energy, but despite this, and at the early hour, when I tended to run across her, she always greeted me. And indeed all of our staff and all those who met her with a smile and a kind word, and she will now spend more time with her children, Ben and Wayne, and her grandchildren, Finlay and Fiona.
And we wish her all the best and we will all keep fighting the Great War on her behalf. It only remains for me to thank my fellow usual channels. I can't tell you how generous they are constantly to the crossbench in all sorts of little ways, and I and the crossbench are all very grateful to them. And I have to say that it is very good fun in the usual channels. I would take issue about the biscuits because there was a metre long, a lot of biscuits with the Chief Whip, one metre long lot of Jaffa cakes, and at one point and we're hoping to get more of those, I think, in there.
But but it is, it is in a great spirit that we try and make sure that things work in the house. And I pay tribute to to them very much. And with that said, the only remaining thing is on on behalf of our benches can I wish everybody, members and staff, a very happy Christmas here.
12:14
The Lord Bishop of Derby (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Derby (Bishops)
My Lords. I won't detain the House long, but on behalf of these House long, but on behalf of these benches, I wish to echo the appreciative comments that have. We've just heard from the front benches about all those who have or are about to retire as colleagues work from working alongside us here, and it is a real privilege to have the the final opportunity on behalf of us all in your Lordships House, to thank those who work with us both front of house and behind the scenes, for their outstanding care and service in keeping this house and our work here running smoothly.
My Lords, as we near the end of this year's journey through advent and approach Christmas, I know that all members will join with me in wishing not just each other, but all our colleagues here a restorative recess, and I pray that you may know the joy of the angels and the eagerness of the shepherds, the perseverance of the wise men, the obedience of Joseph and Mary, and the peace of the Christ child. This Christmas, happy Christmas and a good New Year when it comes.
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My Lords, if any peers wish to leave the chamber, now is the My My Lords My Lords motion My Lords motion to agree the Procedure and Privileges Committee, report on the Conduct Committee and the Rotation Rule, Committee and the Rotation Rule, the Senior Deputy Speaker.
My Lords, as we near the end of this year's journey through advent and approach Christmas, I know that all members will join with me in wishing not just each other, but all our colleagues here a restorative recess, and I pray that you may know the joy of the angels and the eagerness of the shepherds, the perseverance of the wise men, the obedience of Joseph and Mary, and the peace of the Christ child. This Christmas, happy Christmas and a good New Year when it comes.
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My Lords, if any peers wish to leave the chamber, now is the My My Lords My Lords motion My Lords motion to agree the Procedure and Privileges Committee, report on the Conduct Committee and the Rotation Rule, Committee and the Rotation Rule, the Senior Deputy Speaker.
12:17
Business of the House
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Business of the House
Lords, I beg to move the motion from the Procedure and Privileges Committee be agreed to. This report follows an invitation from the Conduct Committee to the Procedure and Privileges Committee to review the application of the rotation rule to peer members of the Conduct Committee. The report before your Lordships House recommends that peer members of the Conduct Committee should be appointed for up to three years in the first instance, with the option to extend their appointment annually up to a maximum of six years in total.
The Committee of Selection should review the membership of the Conduct Committee annually, with the input of the committee's chair, to ensure a balance of skills and experience on the committee as a whole. The report proposes no formal change to the terms of appointment of external members, who will continue to be appointed for three years. In the first instance, an extension thereafter up to a maximum of a further three years will be subject to regular review by the chair of the Conduct Committee.
In summary. My Lords. If this report is agreed, the terms of appointment for peer and external members will, as far as practicable, be aligned. I commend the report to your Lordships and Lords. I beg to move the first motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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The question is that this motion
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The question is that this motion be agreed to. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many this motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion will take contrary. Not content. The contents have it. Retirement and Participation
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Retirement and Participation Committee. Appointment. Motion. The senior deputy Speaker. My Lords, I beg to move the
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My Lords, I beg to move the second motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The question is that the motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker be agreed to. The question
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is that the motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say. Content. Content.
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Content. The contrary, not content. The contents have it Sentencing Bill
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order of consideration. Lord Lemos. My Lords, I beg to move the commitment motion standing in my
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name on the Order Paper. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many of that be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say. Content. Contrary, not content. The contents have it. Questions on an answer to an urgent question asked in the House of Commons yesterday on the pathways puberty blockers trial.
The Committee of Selection should review the membership of the Conduct Committee annually, with the input of the committee's chair, to ensure a balance of skills and experience on the committee as a whole. The report proposes no formal change to the terms of appointment of external members, who will continue to be appointed for three years. In the first instance, an extension thereafter up to a maximum of a further three years will be subject to regular review by the chair of the Conduct Committee.
In summary. My Lords. If this report is agreed, the terms of appointment for peer and external members will, as far as practicable, be aligned. I commend the report to your Lordships and Lords. I beg to move the first motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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The question is that this motion
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The question is that this motion be agreed to. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many this motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion will take contrary. Not content. The contents have it. Retirement and Participation
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Retirement and Participation Committee. Appointment. Motion. The senior deputy Speaker. My Lords, I beg to move the
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My Lords, I beg to move the second motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The question is that the motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker be agreed to. The question
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is that the motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say. Content. Content.
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Content. The contrary, not content. The contents have it Sentencing Bill
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order of consideration. Lord Lemos. My Lords, I beg to move the commitment motion standing in my
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name on the Order Paper. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many of that be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say. Content. Contrary, not content. The contents have it. Questions on an answer to an urgent question asked in the House of Commons yesterday on the pathways puberty blockers trial.
12:19
Lord Kamall (Conservative)
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Lord Kamall (Conservative)
My Lords, can I begin by thanking the government for the sensitive language in handling this delicate issue? My Lords, I recall the noble Lady Baroness Cass telling the House that puberty blockers are currently licensed only for much younger children with precocious puberty or older adults with current cancers certain cancers sorry to. Trials are needed to determine if they are safe for adolescents with gender incongruence, and to understand the interaction with the different processes of puberty. I understand that children taking part in the trials must have their parents consent, but can the Minister clarify two points which are clearly raising concern? What is the maximum and minimum age of children taking part in these trials? And secondly, what does assurances can the government definitively give that children taking part in these trials would not experience fertility issues or loss of sexual function, or any conditions that are irreversible later in life? And can I also wish all noble Lords, staff, officials, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy New Year as well as our American cousins say happy holidays.
12:20
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
My Lords, I'm grateful to the noble Lord for acknowledging the sensitive language. This is indeed a very sensitive issue. And let me just say, for all what I know, there is division and divided opinion. There is a determination. I'm sure it's across the House that we get this right. The clinical trial is just part of the pathway study. With regard to the clinical trial, it is extremely unlikely that anyone under the age of 11 will qualify as a potential participant, and it runs up to the age of the 16th birthday.
So I hope that that will be helpful. I, on the other, would the noble Lord
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mind reminding me of the second question? Thank you. Answers can be given to any.
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Answers can be given to any. Anything developed under these trials are not are irreversible, are irreversible. Yes.
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Thank you. I think the noble Lord before there is before participants enter the trial. And I have to say it's an extremely high bar, as it should be for this trial. And there will be at least 226 participants required. But let me say, this isn't a target and there will be no drive to get up to that target. But certainly any possible impact, such as the ones the noble Lord describes, will be fully discussed and mitigations explained and made available, particularly in terms of fertility.
So I absolutely take the point the noble Lord is raising.
So I hope that that will be helpful. I, on the other, would the noble Lord
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mind reminding me of the second question? Thank you. Answers can be given to any.
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Answers can be given to any. Anything developed under these trials are not are irreversible, are irreversible. Yes.
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Thank you. I think the noble Lord before there is before participants enter the trial. And I have to say it's an extremely high bar, as it should be for this trial. And there will be at least 226 participants required. But let me say, this isn't a target and there will be no drive to get up to that target. But certainly any possible impact, such as the ones the noble Lord describes, will be fully discussed and mitigations explained and made available, particularly in terms of fertility.
So I absolutely take the point the noble Lord is raising.
12:22
Baroness Cass (Crossbench)
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Baroness Cass (Crossbench)
Lord Stern. years, clinicians in this country have told children and young people that these medications are safe, fully reversible and indeed life saving. And lastly, they were rightly banned from clinical practice. But the upshot of this is that now, of the 75 children a year who are a month, who are coming to the new services, about 20% of them are getting these medications and worse, testosterone and oestrogen from unlicensed and unregulated sources. And those are the ones we know about.
In addition, referrals to the new services have dropped from 200 a month to only 30 a month. And so we think a large number of those young people are also being harmed through through those mechanisms. So we are concerned about this much broader harm. And by and children are voting with their feet now. So can I ask the noble Lady, the Minister, does she agree with me that for the very tiny number of young people who will ultimately who clinicians believe will have a long standing gender incongruence and therefore will be eligible for this trial, is it better that they are get their medication under careful clinical supervision and rather than on the dark web? And secondly, whether and secondly, can I ask whether she thinks that this trial will be a way of attracting that broader group of young people back into the NHS who don't need medical treatment but need holistic wraparound care here? wraparound care here?
In addition, referrals to the new services have dropped from 200 a month to only 30 a month. And so we think a large number of those young people are also being harmed through through those mechanisms. So we are concerned about this much broader harm. And by and children are voting with their feet now. So can I ask the noble Lady, the Minister, does she agree with me that for the very tiny number of young people who will ultimately who clinicians believe will have a long standing gender incongruence and therefore will be eligible for this trial, is it better that they are get their medication under careful clinical supervision and rather than on the dark web? And secondly, whether and secondly, can I ask whether she thinks that this trial will be a way of attracting that broader group of young people back into the NHS who don't need medical treatment but need holistic wraparound care here? wraparound care here?
12:24
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
But let me say first of all, to the noble Lady how grateful we are for her, continued professional attention and sensitivity in dealing with this. It was a cross-party approach to the Cass Review, and I'm I would pay tribute to Sir Savage Javid, the former home health secretary for the former health secretary, for seeing the need for this. And that's why we've always been supportive of the Cass review. I do agree with both the points that the noble Lady has made, and the fact is this is about facing up to the need.
In my view, that the review about what the review found shocking levels of unprofessionalism, a lack of clinical oversight, and puberty blockers being prescribed to children without sufficient evidence that was not safe, that was not beneficial, and it couldn't go on.
In my view, that the review about what the review found shocking levels of unprofessionalism, a lack of clinical oversight, and puberty blockers being prescribed to children without sufficient evidence that was not safe, that was not beneficial, and it couldn't go on.
12:25
Baroness Thornton (Labour)
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Baroness Thornton (Labour)
My Lord. >> My Lords. >> First, can I join my noble friend in congratulating the noble Lady Baroness Cass? And also, can I congratulate my hon. Friend, Secretary of State, for the transparency with which this has already been dealt? Members will be aware that cross-party across both houses there was a briefing which involved all the scientists who will be carrying out this research. Can I ask my noble friend to assure the House that that transparency and information giving will continue here? continue here?
12:26
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
I can confirm to my noble friend that the transparency will continue, and I'm grateful for the comments that have been made about my noble friend, my right hon. Friend. He he is indeed Right Honourable the Health Secretary, who I believe hasn't just been transparent but has also been extremely honest, and I very much welcome that. I very much welcome that.
12:26
Baroness Barker (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Barker (Liberal Democrat)
LED by Lib Dem Lords. nationalist campaign against women's rights and LGBT rights. Since this research has been designed according to standard research protocols, has been approved by NHS ethics committees, and will be carried out by professionals who are bound by professional regulation. Does does the Minister agree with me that those professionals should be enabled to get on with their job, free from ideological interference here? here?
12:27
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
I do agree with that point. We are seeking to protect the safety and the interests of children and young people through evidence, and it is right and proper. We get on with that. As the noble Lady has said, this has been a this is a trial. For example, it's being led by King's College London, south London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust. It's been carefully checked by independent scientists. They advise the NIH and also has been checked through by more than check through by the MHRA.
It's been it's received approval from a research ethics committee. I'd say we are treading cautiously and correctly in this area, because all that matters is the safety of children.
It's been it's received approval from a research ethics committee. I'd say we are treading cautiously and correctly in this area, because all that matters is the safety of children.
12:28
Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
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Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
Here. My Lord. It would appear. the illicit provision on the dark web, which is a very serious matter and difficult to manage. Nonetheless, I must ask what provision is being made to meet potential claims for damages from young people like Cara Bell in the future, who do sustain permanent damage to sexual function and emotional well-being after being on the trial? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:28
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
Well, it's probably helpful to say no one's required to be on the trial. Nobody will be accepted onto the trial unless the. And it's extremely rigorous and clinically led judgement about whether a young person is suitable. All of that information to the point about transparency is available online. And I would urge noble Lords to look at that. But but let me say, in my view, it was absolutely right that the temporary ban that was brought in by the previous Health Secretary, Victoria Atkins, it was absolutely right that we then made that a permanent one.
However, the issues remain and we have to work out how best to support children and young people who suffer gender incongruence.
However, the issues remain and we have to work out how best to support children and young people who suffer gender incongruence.
12:29
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Crossbench)
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Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Crossbench)
Lord Paddick Lord Paddick.
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We know that the pathways trial
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We know that the pathways trial will seek to. My Lords, we know that the pathways trial will in in the case that children cannot the case that children cannot consent, which is widely acknowledged given the age of the children, that single parent children, that single parent consent will be permissible. We also know from litigation to date also know from litigation to date on these matters that parents are going to court to ascertain whether their consent a single parent can consent to this.
So is this not will they review single parent consent and insist that both parents have to give consent to these irreversible, potentially irreversible changes where children's consent is not possible?
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We know that the pathways trial
**** Possible New Speaker ****
We know that the pathways trial will seek to. My Lords, we know that the pathways trial will in in the case that children cannot the case that children cannot consent, which is widely acknowledged given the age of the children, that single parent children, that single parent consent will be permissible. We also know from litigation to date also know from litigation to date on these matters that parents are going to court to ascertain whether their consent a single parent can consent to this.
So is this not will they review single parent consent and insist that both parents have to give consent to these irreversible, potentially irreversible changes where children's consent is not possible?
12:30
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
As the noble Lady rightly says, children by definition can't consent to being on the trial so that places will require parental consent as well as the assent of young people. I can assure your Lordships House, as I've already referred to, there are strict eligibility criteria in place to join the pathways clinical trial and part of the assessment by those who are making the decision, the professionals making the decision about engagement is about the role of the parents, including whether there's been any undue pressure, the whole range of considerations.
So I would urge the noble Lady to refer to the details of how young people will be accepted on to this trial. And I must emphasise that, no, there'll be no there'll be nobody who will be guided towards it, who who should not be. This is where we are seeking young people. It is not any requirement.
So I would urge the noble Lady to refer to the details of how young people will be accepted on to this trial. And I must emphasise that, no, there'll be no there'll be nobody who will be guided towards it, who who should not be. This is where we are seeking young people. It is not any requirement.
12:32
The Earl of Courtown (Conservative)
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The Earl of Courtown (Conservative)
My Lords, there is little doubt across the House that the opportunity to live, study and work abroad can bring real benefits for young people. It enables them to young people. It enables them to experience different cultures, encounter new ways of thinking, build confidence and form build confidence and form relationships and friendships that can last a lifetime. Those objectives are in themselves entirely laudable. However, my Lords, good intentions are not enough. If this arrangement is to command confidence, it must be fair, accessible and genuinely mutually beneficial.
It is therefore right, my Lords, that we we scrutinise carefully both the financial and practical implications of what His Majesty's Government have agreed. One of the most immediate questions raised by this announcement is whether it will represent genuine value for money for the British taxpayer. It is concerning that the government have been unable to define any cap on the number of EU students who may come to the United Kingdom under this arrangement, nor have they ruled out a wider youth mobility scheme that could further increase the inflow of young people from the EU.
Under the proposed deal, European students will be able to study in the UK for up to a year while continuing to pay tuition fees to their home institutions. My Lords, when this scheme last operated, the imbalance was stark. In 2018, almost 32,000 young people came to UK through Erasmus, compared with around 17,000 UK students travelling in the opposite direction. The result was an estimated net cost, the UK taxpayer of more than £200 million per year. The media reported this morning that the total cost to the British taxpayer from this new scheme could be as high as be £8.75 billion, at a time when young people in this country are already facing rising living costs, spiralling unemployment and diminished opportunities to buy homes and to save and invest their money.
Problems largely stemming from this government's own policy choices. We must be extremely careful about entering into an arrangement that risk British taxpayers subsidising European students to study here. I might also add, my Lords, that whether or not a taxpayer's own child benefits from this scheme, the cost is borne by everyone. If parents across the country are being asked to help fund opportunities for other people's children to study abroad, we must be confident and able to demonstrate that this delivers benefits not just for the individual participant, but for the country as a whole.
I therefore ask the noble Baroness Stern Minister what assurances can she give the House that this will not again become an asymmetrical arrangement? Can she guarantee that participation in Erasmus+ from 2027 will not result in a net cost to the British taxpayer of the kind we saw previously? And can the noble Baroness Minister, please tell us how the value for money to the taxpayer will be assessed and communicated? My Lords, closely linked to this, my Lords, is the question of equitable access.
It is easy to predict who is most likely to benefit from schemes of this nature. Those who studied languages at school, who travelled abroad with their families, and whose educational and social backgrounds already equip them to take advantage of international opportunities. Without careful design, Erasmus risks becoming little more than a publicly subsidised gap year for young people who already enjoy significant privilege. While the government have said that financial support will be available for disadvantaged students, funding alone is insufficient if those disadvantaged students are unaware of the scheme, if they are unaware of the scheme, lack institutional encouragement or do not see it as something for people like them, can the noble Baroness and Minister set out how the government will ensure that this scheme is actively promoted and supported in schools, colleges and universities serving disadvantaged communities? What concrete steps will be taken to ensure that those who would benefit most from international mobility are not, once again, the least likely to access it? My Lords, I would also welcome the government's response on how the new arrangement will sit alongside existing UK mobility programmes.
The United Kingdom currently operates a Turing Scheme, which was designed to expand opportunities for students to study and work abroad well beyond the European Union. Against that background, it would be helpful for the House to understand what the future holds for the Turing Scheme. Once association with Erasmus+ begins in 2027. I therefore hope, my Lords, that the noble Baroness can tell us in choosing to re-associate with the rest. How does the government intend to preserve the broader international reach that Turing was specifically designed to support? Will opportunities for global mobility beyond Europe be maintained at their current level, or does the government envisage a narrowing of focus back towards the EU alone? My Lords, as I indicated earlier, this scheme must be able not only to deliver benefits, but to demonstrate clearly that it represents value for money for the taxpayer.
While the government have outlined the initial costs of association. Experience tells us that such programmes can become significantly more expensive over time, particularly where participation is uneven or demand exceeds expectations. It would therefore be reassuring to hear what safeguards are in place to prevent costs from escalating in the years ahead. My Lords, the government has said that the rejoining Erasmus would cost £570 million in 2027 for a one year membership, but declined to say what the future costs would be.
Can the noble Baroness, the Minister, now tell us what these future costs will be? It is being reported that Brussels plans to increase funding for the scheme by more than 50%, from around 26 billion to 41 billion from 2028. This plus extra costs associated with joining EU programmes after Brexit, means the bloc could charge Britain 1.25 billion a year between 2028 and 2034. Can the noble Baroness May Minister confirm whether these numbers are correct? Can the noble Mariners also confirm if participation once again becomes markedly unbalanced, with substantially more students coming to the UK than travelling abroad? What mechanisms will exist to address that? And will the government be able to renegotiate the terms of participation, adjust financial contributions or take corrective actions to ensure that the UK is not locked into a persistently disadvantageous position? My Lords, and can the noble Baroness Minister tell us what project, what projected cost this programme will have to universities who may lose out on international student fees as a result of this policy? My Lords.
My Lords, there will be understandably be concerned both in this House and beyond that, this EU reset could amount to a gradual reversal of the settlement reached when the United Kingdom left the European Union. What protections are in place to ensure that the UK is not drawn into open ended financial commitments? Regulatory alignment or governance structures over which it has limited control and, crucially, what clear mechanisms exist for the UK to withdraw from or adjust its participation should this arrangement cease to serve our national interests? My Lords, there is broad consensus across this House that international mobility can be a powerful force for good, but goodwill must be matched by responsibility.
If this scheme is to succeed, it must deliver value for money, widen opportunity rather than entrenched privilege, and sit comfortably within a UK EU relationship based on cooperation without dependency. My Lords, I look forward to the noble Baroness Nye Minister's response on these points, and to greater clarity on how the government intend to ensure that this agreement works not just in theory, but in practice for young people across the whole of statement.
It is therefore right, my Lords, that we we scrutinise carefully both the financial and practical implications of what His Majesty's Government have agreed. One of the most immediate questions raised by this announcement is whether it will represent genuine value for money for the British taxpayer. It is concerning that the government have been unable to define any cap on the number of EU students who may come to the United Kingdom under this arrangement, nor have they ruled out a wider youth mobility scheme that could further increase the inflow of young people from the EU.
Under the proposed deal, European students will be able to study in the UK for up to a year while continuing to pay tuition fees to their home institutions. My Lords, when this scheme last operated, the imbalance was stark. In 2018, almost 32,000 young people came to UK through Erasmus, compared with around 17,000 UK students travelling in the opposite direction. The result was an estimated net cost, the UK taxpayer of more than £200 million per year. The media reported this morning that the total cost to the British taxpayer from this new scheme could be as high as be £8.75 billion, at a time when young people in this country are already facing rising living costs, spiralling unemployment and diminished opportunities to buy homes and to save and invest their money.
Problems largely stemming from this government's own policy choices. We must be extremely careful about entering into an arrangement that risk British taxpayers subsidising European students to study here. I might also add, my Lords, that whether or not a taxpayer's own child benefits from this scheme, the cost is borne by everyone. If parents across the country are being asked to help fund opportunities for other people's children to study abroad, we must be confident and able to demonstrate that this delivers benefits not just for the individual participant, but for the country as a whole.
I therefore ask the noble Baroness Stern Minister what assurances can she give the House that this will not again become an asymmetrical arrangement? Can she guarantee that participation in Erasmus+ from 2027 will not result in a net cost to the British taxpayer of the kind we saw previously? And can the noble Baroness Minister, please tell us how the value for money to the taxpayer will be assessed and communicated? My Lords, closely linked to this, my Lords, is the question of equitable access.
It is easy to predict who is most likely to benefit from schemes of this nature. Those who studied languages at school, who travelled abroad with their families, and whose educational and social backgrounds already equip them to take advantage of international opportunities. Without careful design, Erasmus risks becoming little more than a publicly subsidised gap year for young people who already enjoy significant privilege. While the government have said that financial support will be available for disadvantaged students, funding alone is insufficient if those disadvantaged students are unaware of the scheme, if they are unaware of the scheme, lack institutional encouragement or do not see it as something for people like them, can the noble Baroness and Minister set out how the government will ensure that this scheme is actively promoted and supported in schools, colleges and universities serving disadvantaged communities? What concrete steps will be taken to ensure that those who would benefit most from international mobility are not, once again, the least likely to access it? My Lords, I would also welcome the government's response on how the new arrangement will sit alongside existing UK mobility programmes.
The United Kingdom currently operates a Turing Scheme, which was designed to expand opportunities for students to study and work abroad well beyond the European Union. Against that background, it would be helpful for the House to understand what the future holds for the Turing Scheme. Once association with Erasmus+ begins in 2027. I therefore hope, my Lords, that the noble Baroness can tell us in choosing to re-associate with the rest. How does the government intend to preserve the broader international reach that Turing was specifically designed to support? Will opportunities for global mobility beyond Europe be maintained at their current level, or does the government envisage a narrowing of focus back towards the EU alone? My Lords, as I indicated earlier, this scheme must be able not only to deliver benefits, but to demonstrate clearly that it represents value for money for the taxpayer.
While the government have outlined the initial costs of association. Experience tells us that such programmes can become significantly more expensive over time, particularly where participation is uneven or demand exceeds expectations. It would therefore be reassuring to hear what safeguards are in place to prevent costs from escalating in the years ahead. My Lords, the government has said that the rejoining Erasmus would cost £570 million in 2027 for a one year membership, but declined to say what the future costs would be.
Can the noble Baroness, the Minister, now tell us what these future costs will be? It is being reported that Brussels plans to increase funding for the scheme by more than 50%, from around 26 billion to 41 billion from 2028. This plus extra costs associated with joining EU programmes after Brexit, means the bloc could charge Britain 1.25 billion a year between 2028 and 2034. Can the noble Baroness May Minister confirm whether these numbers are correct? Can the noble Mariners also confirm if participation once again becomes markedly unbalanced, with substantially more students coming to the UK than travelling abroad? What mechanisms will exist to address that? And will the government be able to renegotiate the terms of participation, adjust financial contributions or take corrective actions to ensure that the UK is not locked into a persistently disadvantageous position? My Lords, and can the noble Baroness Minister tell us what project, what projected cost this programme will have to universities who may lose out on international student fees as a result of this policy? My Lords.
My Lords, there will be understandably be concerned both in this House and beyond that, this EU reset could amount to a gradual reversal of the settlement reached when the United Kingdom left the European Union. What protections are in place to ensure that the UK is not drawn into open ended financial commitments? Regulatory alignment or governance structures over which it has limited control and, crucially, what clear mechanisms exist for the UK to withdraw from or adjust its participation should this arrangement cease to serve our national interests? My Lords, there is broad consensus across this House that international mobility can be a powerful force for good, but goodwill must be matched by responsibility.
If this scheme is to succeed, it must deliver value for money, widen opportunity rather than entrenched privilege, and sit comfortably within a UK EU relationship based on cooperation without dependency. My Lords, I look forward to the noble Baroness Nye Minister's response on these points, and to greater clarity on how the government intend to ensure that this agreement works not just in theory, but in practice for young people across the whole of statement.
12:40
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
And welcome the.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
So slowly. I'm. I note that this means that we differ considerably from the conservative frontbench, from the conservative frontbench, although I was a little relieved that the words we had heard from the conservative frontbench a the conservative frontbench a little less hysterical than the front pages of the Telegraph and the mail today. Can I say to the Minister that if we are going to pursue the reset further, as my party strongly accepts, and to move towards dynamic alignment across the board, and therefore closer association with the customs union, which will have to come next, the government needs to change its language and spend more time discussing the benefits as against the costs, which my conservative colleague and the Telegraph and the mail have stressed so heavily this morning.
I declare an interest. I taught many students from other European Union countries in my last two jobs in universities, one of whom is the extremely active president of his country. Active on European security, a number of others are now in leading positions in public life in their countries and good friends of the United Kingdom. That's one of the benefits we get from exchanges. And in terms of the imbalance we had last time, an active scheme to encourage British students to spend time in other countries is of enormous benefit to this country.
It leads to people who understand other countries can do business in other countries, understand their politics, and then can enter public service here or elsewhere to the mutual benefit. Can I say to the Minister, I regret the language of this statement? It's defensive and wrong. Therefore we talk. It talks about only in the national interest and sovereignty. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that the only country in the world that is fully sovereign is North Korea and other countries.
Sovereignty has to be compromised by international cooperation. And as the reform in effect makes clear, the alternative to membership of the European Union is not full sovereignty, but is actually dependence on the United States. And that is not an easy thing to see as the alternative at the present time. Can I suggest that the government should be talking about shared interests and common security, and the benefits which come as against the costs and the fact that our contributions are help to save this country money in many ways.
When the conservative government took us out of the European Union, we had to set up separate agencies for which we had to recruit additional public servants. We lost the European Medical Medical Agency in London,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
So slowly. I'm. I note that this means that we differ considerably from the conservative frontbench, from the conservative frontbench, although I was a little relieved that the words we had heard from the conservative frontbench a the conservative frontbench a little less hysterical than the front pages of the Telegraph and the mail today. Can I say to the Minister that if we are going to pursue the reset further, as my party strongly accepts, and to move towards dynamic alignment across the board, and therefore closer association with the customs union, which will have to come next, the government needs to change its language and spend more time discussing the benefits as against the costs, which my conservative colleague and the Telegraph and the mail have stressed so heavily this morning.
I declare an interest. I taught many students from other European Union countries in my last two jobs in universities, one of whom is the extremely active president of his country. Active on European security, a number of others are now in leading positions in public life in their countries and good friends of the United Kingdom. That's one of the benefits we get from exchanges. And in terms of the imbalance we had last time, an active scheme to encourage British students to spend time in other countries is of enormous benefit to this country.
It leads to people who understand other countries can do business in other countries, understand their politics, and then can enter public service here or elsewhere to the mutual benefit. Can I say to the Minister, I regret the language of this statement? It's defensive and wrong. Therefore we talk. It talks about only in the national interest and sovereignty. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that the only country in the world that is fully sovereign is North Korea and other countries.
Sovereignty has to be compromised by international cooperation. And as the reform in effect makes clear, the alternative to membership of the European Union is not full sovereignty, but is actually dependence on the United States. And that is not an easy thing to see as the alternative at the present time. Can I suggest that the government should be talking about shared interests and common security, and the benefits which come as against the costs and the fact that our contributions are help to save this country money in many ways.
When the conservative government took us out of the European Union, we had to set up separate agencies for which we had to recruit additional public servants. We lost the European Medical Medical Agency in London,