Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, Amendment 34, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, was the subject of some debate at Second Reading, and the issue has since been referred to several times. I was not persuaded then that this is the right way to proceed and, having listened to a number of noble Lords speak in favour of the amendment, I am not persuaded now.

As we have heard, the Treason Act 1351 is still in force today, although it has been amended. I believe it was last used to prosecute William Joyce in 1945 after the Second World War. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said, it has a somewhat chequered history. There is ample opportunity to prosecute British citizens, and those who are not British citizens, who commit acts of terrorism for a range of offences, using legislation that is already on the statute book.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, on the prosecution of William Joyce, I do not believe that any reliance at all was placed on the Treason Act. The basis of the prosecution against him was that he had left this country holding a British passport and, as such, had relied on the guarantee of safety of this country. There was, therefore, a reciprocal duty on him, which led him of course to commit treason.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I bow to the noble Lord’s greater knowledge on the matter and would not attempt to dispute his point.

The Bill gives the Government further powers and increases the sentence for various offences, which deals with the point about adequacy of sentencing. The Bill also gives further powers to the police and the intelligence services, which is important.

Having read the amendment, I see the point noble Lords are making, but it seems rather messy to me. I do not see what it would achieve for us. It is not a question of being timid. I love my country. My family came here as immigrants and this country has been very good to us. I just do not think the amendment is appropriate.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, of course the first duty of the Government is to protect their citizens, and we support the measures they take in that sense and support them in the Bill. We will question them and argue over issues, but we support the Government in their measures to do that. I just do not feel that this amendment, no matter how well intentioned, takes us any further forward.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and my noble friend Lord Faulks for moving the amendment. In your Lordships’ House, every day is an education. My noble friend Lord Howe informs me that William Joyce was an Irishman falsely using a British passport, so perhaps the Irish among us should feel—

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

He was an American.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

He was an American who took a German passport in 1940 but was nevertheless convicted when he was a German citizen.

Syria: UK Military Involvement

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, exchange of personnel is a regular feature of our Armed Forces, as the noble Baroness will be aware, and this has been the case for many years. I asked for figures relating to our personnel embedded with the forces of other nations, but that statistic is more difficult to come by than might be initially supposed. However, if I can enlighten the noble Baroness, and indeed the House, I would be happy to do so once the information has been gathered.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, it is the Cross Benches next.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I am grateful. I wonder if the noble Earl can kindly tell the House what in public international law is the status that Her Majesty’s Government regard President Assad as occupying, bearing in mind that some two years ago, in respect of all the belligerents that were opposed to President Assad, we accepted a status for each and every one of them—including, as it so happened, ISIL.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Government regard the Assad regime as a pariah regime, in short. It will be very important, if we are to seek a lasting settlement in Syria, that Assad and those supporting him are not part of that future regime.

Ukraine

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I can confirm to my noble friend that the last point she made could be a game-changer, and obviously, we are keeping that under review. We are getting requests for equipment from the Ukrainian Government, and we are considering that seriously. At the moment we feel that it is best to give only non-lethal equipment.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that Her Majesty’s Government are cognisant of two very grave dangers in this connection? One is what historians call “mission creep”, bearing in mind how the United States of America, from the deployment of a handful of advisers, found itself sucked into the war in Vietnam, deploying millions of conscripted troops. Secondly, will he also confirm that the problem is of course much wider than Ukraine itself? The presence of strong Russian minorities in so many other parts outside Russia means that the Sudetenland game can be played ad infinitum by Putin.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are aware of mission creep and the history here. This is a closely defined training and advisory mission, and we are well aware of the other point that the noble Lord made.

Armed Forces: Pension Scheme

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there is no evidence that morale in the Armed Forces has been adversely affected by the redundancy programme. The number of applications for redundancy is not an indicator of the state of morale because the Army has deliberately set out to maximise applications. Recruiting for the Armed Forces remains buoyant.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, it is the Minister’s case that no cognisance is taken of the proximity of a decision in relation to redundancy and a pension date. How does it come about that the Ministry is able with such precision to say exactly what proportion is applicable in this case?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, because of the complexity of pensions calculations, establishing the exact number of Army personnel who fall into this category would require manual analysis of the records of those selected for redundancy. This could be undertaken only at disproportionate cost. However, to ensure the redundancy programme is fair, selection criteria have been published by each service and, while rank and seniority are reflected in selection criteria, length of reckonable service is not. This means that individuals might be made redundant either just before or just after the length of service at which they qualify for an immediate pension. Redundancy criteria are based on the future needs of the Army. Exempting personnel because of proximity to pension point would be contrary to this principle and would mean selecting others instead.