European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, my problem with this amendment is that it seems to me to meet precisely what the Government want. The Government have been arguing that this clause would apply only to matters of constitutional value and that those who have worried about various aspects of it are worrying unnecessarily. We now have an amendment which specifically says that the Minister must say publicly that the referendum concerns a matter of constitutional or economic importance. That seems to me not an unreasonable thing to do when it is precisely what the Government say this clause is meant to do. Although I do not believe in referenda in any circumstances, I am not approaching this from that point of view. Frankly, I am trying to help the Government because it seems to me that they have not convinced all of us that their explanation of this clause is precisely right.

My noble friend Lord Blackwell is entirely wrong: this is not a wrecking amendment—unless the Government’s proposal is a wrecking amendment—in fact, it enhances what the Government have asked for. Your Lordships should say to yourselves, “Whether we are Eurosceptics or enthusiasts for Europe”—as I am—“whatever our view may be, it is not unreasonable to say that referenda should be held on matters of considerable importance, not ones which are not of considerable importance”. It is not unreasonable to put that in the Bill.

As regards the way in which we have approached this, I believe that there are real issues for our stance in the European Union. Those who are Eurosceptic ought to be just as concerned as those of us who are of a different opinion, because unless we are able to argue about minor matters with the freedom which a representative Government have, we will do ourselves down on many of the issues that have been raised. If this amendment merely allows for that freedom, it is important and valuable and certainly does not in any way wreck the proposal.

There is truth in the argument that says that we should watch any constitutional change of this magnitude with great care. I say to the noble Baroness behind me who spoke on the Liberal Democrat position that the more she read what the Constitution Committee of this House said, the more she made the case for the amendment, because the Constitution Committee said that if you are going to have referenda, you should make sure that they are on serious matters. Sometimes it is difficult to decide what are serious matters. We have produced an amendment which says to the Minister, “You have to make up your mind, you have to agree to it and you have to say that publicly”. After all, most of our Bills have a statement on the front that the relevant Minister knows that it accords with human rights. It is not unreasonable to ask Ministers to make that choice. I think that is what the Government want. Why, therefore, have they not accepted this amendment, or something like it?

I end with a plea to my noble friend. He knows that many of us are not entirely happy with the logic of saying that we have to have all this in order to reconnect with the public. Could he not move towards us just a little and be prepared to put in the Bill what he has told us is actually there? That would make us feel that the Government had listened to us and that there was a two-way discussion on this. If he does not do that, I am afraid that I cannot even begin to reach out to the concept that this Bill enhances our relationships and I shall begin to recede into a position of wondering whether it is not intended to make people like my noble friend happier. I am not sure that that is what we should be debating.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that certain noble Lords are perhaps a bit out of touch with British public opinion? It is clear that the British public are against Governments surrendering any further sovereignty to the EU without the consent of the people. That was very much reflected in the attitude taken to the previous Government’s signing up to Lisbon, having promised a referendum and then having ratted on it. The whole point of the Bill, clumsy though it may be, is to provide a deterrent to stop Governments of any political hue giving away yet more sovereignty, and the British people not having a say in that. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, gave the game away. He was arguing that he wanted a situation where Governments could fudge it and give away a bit more sovereignty and was very unhappy that they might be deterred from doing that through fear of losing a referendum. The whole point of the Bill is to provide an effective deterrent to Governments giving away sovereignty. This amendment would weaken that principle.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I took part in virtually all the debates that we have had so far on this Bill, and it seems to me that the amendment would be a wrecking amendment. I understand that the Government and the coalition brought forward the Bill after long consideration and to provide assurance to the British people before they surrendered any powers—powers of the people and powers of this Parliament, if we are talking about parliamentary democracy—to the institutions of the European Union. Indeed, we had long discussions about these provisions, and after hearing all the debates I believe that the Government were right to try to get it through this House. Unfortunately, they did not do so.

The Bill went to the House of Commons and I have read the debates. The Labour Party did not oppose these clauses in any reasonable way and did not support Amendments 6 to 13. There was very little discussion on them, as a matter of fact. If it was Labour Party policy, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, assured us and as is contained in his amendment, why was it not moved in the House of Commons? That is where it should have been done, but it was not done. What is the gain? If the Labour Party believes in restricting the effect of Clause 6, why did it not try to do that in the elected House? In the circumstances, this House ought to take note of what the other place has done.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Waddington said early in his speech that some Members of your Lordships’ House are opponents of this Bill, and no doubt he includes me among the opponents. I am not an opponent of the Bill and nor are others of any significance in the House. What we want to do is make sure that matters which until now have not had to be decided by Parliament will be decided by Act of Parliament, and we are entirely in favour of giving the right to a referendum in matters of importance, which the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has already described. We are looking for a different Bill, but we have no wish to destroy this one.

Referendums to be voted on by an entire country involve a lot of work on the part of those arranging them and cost a great deal of money. I understand that the referendum voted on a couple of months ago cost something in the order of £120 million. That is why referendums should be used only for matters of real national importance. Another reason, which is perhaps even more important, is that we must recognise that people will vote in a referendum only on issues of real interest to them. So far, the principle of the way referendums should be used has been recognised and observed. Only one referendum, of course, has been voted on across the whole of the United Kingdom; the 1975 referendum on our continued membership of the European Union. Since then, there have been referendums in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the important subject of devolution.

Those of us who support Amendments 14 to 21 accept that three of those issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has said, are now covered by Clause 6. In all probability, they would justify a referendum. They are the creation of a single integrated military force in Amendment 15, making the euro the currency of the United Kingdom in Amendment 18, and bringing the United Kingdom into the Schengen protocol in Amendment 19. But extending referendums to other matters now covered by Clause 6 and its subsidiary, Schedule 1, wastes time and money and is completely unjustified.

In Committee, I spent some time demonstrating this, particularly in relation to matters affecting the legal system. I take, for example, the possibility that the United Kingdom Government might wish to participate in the European public prosecutor’s office. This is an organisation that does not now and may well never exist, and it is perhaps unlikely that the United Kingdom would participate in it if it did, although it is a possibility. But the point about this is that the EPPO, to shorten the name, is far from being a potentially serious change to the United Kingdom legal system. If your Lordships look at the terms of the TEU or the TFEU that deal with this issue, it becomes obvious that the EPPO would apply only to offences against the EU’s financial interests or to serious crime that has a cross-border dimension. Those would represent a tiny proportion of prosecutions in the United Kingdom and would affect hardly any of the ordinary citizens of this country. So if an EPPO is created and the British Government want to join it, what will happen? Most citizens will surely say, “This does not affect me so I am not going to waste my time by going out to vote on it”. Of course, the dinosaurs of UKIP will thunder down to the polling station to cast their votes. No doubt they would win in those circumstances, but that does not represent the real view of the people of this country.

There are also several cases in the Bill where the existing provisions of treaties require unanimity, but there is a possibility that member states might get together in the future to agree to QMV. Since the United Kingdom Parliament would have to give its consent to that change, it is likely that it would occur only if moving to QMV was of benefit to the United Kingdom, which it often is. It is more often than not to our benefit because it avoids the blocking of QMV, and therefore of legislation, by small member states that have a limited interest.

Matters made subject to QMV may be important or relatively trivial. It is totally inappropriate to insist on the referendum when we do not know how important or controversial the issue for that referendum will be. It is unlikely that ordinary citizens would take an interest unless it was clear to them that the referendum was a matter of importance, and one that would affect them personally.

We have never seen anything like this piece of draft legislation before. In cases where legislation has called for a referendum, that referendum comes first. It comes before any talk of an Act of Parliament. If the result is negative, there is no Act of Parliament to give effect to it. What we have here is an Act of Parliament first, followed by a referendum that might overrule it. If Parliament makes a decision, surely that decision should be binding. If Parliament wants to leave it to a referendum, so be it. What we have here is a ridiculous system that is contrary to the constitutional practice of this country.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, the noble Lords proposing these amendments seem not to understand yet, notwithstanding the amount of time we spent in Committee, the whole point of the Bill. Put very simply, the point is that, whether by intent or by being beguiled, over the past 20 years British Governments have continued to give away sovereignty to the EU, notwithstanding that they have frequently pledged not to do so. Agreeing to the Lisbon treaty, clearly in opposition to the majority view of this country, was a huge example of just that.

This rather strange Bill and the arrangements for referenda are, I concede, a constitutional novelty. How it will work, assuming it becomes law, we shall have to see. However, it is clear that the referendum locks are there as a deterrent to prevent Governments repeating the behaviour of the past. It is fine to talk about letting the decision be made by Parliament, but we all know perfectly well that if one party has a substantial majority, Parliament is, alas, in practice an elected tyranny. There is absolutely no guarantee that even the wisest heads of this noble House will vote against the Government of the day if that Government have a substantial majority of Members in both Houses.

The issues that these amendments cover are among those that have been red line issues for Governments of both sides for some time. They are not issues that have been plucked out of the air. As was apparent from debates in Committee, there are several other issues that could have been picked up in both Schedule 1 and Clause 6, where there are clearly some aspects of transferring of power but where, for better or worse, the Government have decided not to make them subject to a referendum. It is not a case of issues being protected by the referendum lock—this is not something new that has been pulled out of the air—but about issues which have been seen as important red lines that should not be crossed by, I repeat, Governments of both persuasions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I rise to do two things. One is to address the contention made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that I have heard before from him and other noble Lords during our debates on the Bill. His contention is wrong—that the British people have been systematically deceived about the nature or purposes of the European Union, or the European Community as it previously was, and that therefore they were unable to take informed decisions at election time or, indeed, at the time of the 1975 referendum.

It was always clear from the beginning that the European Union, or the European Community, was not a dead institution that was fixed once and for all. It was a dynamic institution, even a teleological institution which had a final purpose or end; all that was stated in the preamble of the treaty of Rome. The phrase about the ever closer union of peoples was always there. Right at the beginning, even when Macmillan first suggested that we might join the Common Market, or the European Community, I remember that speeches were made by members of my own party. I was a schoolboy at the time but I was already taking an interest in these matters. I remember Hugh Gaitskell’s famous speech. My noble friend Lord Radice, who has written books on this subject, will correct me if I have the date wrong. I think that it was in 1962 that Hugh Gaitskell made a famous speech saying that the effect of our joining the European Community ,or the Common Market, would be that we would become like Texas in the United States. If I am right and that speech was made in 1962, that means that literally for the past half century this discussion about the constitutional significance, and the significance for national sovereignty, of our being members of this institution have been clearly, expressly, openly, overtly and thoroughly transparently discussed in public.

[Lord Flight]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. It may be that he was more involved at the time than I was, although we are roughly the same age. However, I remember being organised by the Conservative Party at the time to go out and preach on voting in the referendum for the Common Market—indeed, I voted for it—specifically on the grounds that it would be a good economic prospect for this country. We had lost an empire and we needed to belong to something where we could trade. I was not even aware of the idea that I was trying to market something about political unification—fool though I may have been at the time.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am sorry—I do not know who is speaking and who is intervening here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I could repeat my Burke quotation with which I thought I had skewered the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, in an earlier debate but I will not. It is of the essence of Burke’s theory of parliamentary democracy, in which the Conservative Party used to believe strongly, that the people were consulted about who should sit in Parliament. The decisions of Parliament reflected the judgment of the people whom they had chosen. That seems to me to be quite a good rule and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is a strong one. I support these amendments with the exception of the wording of the amendment on the euro, on which I have a separate amendment to which we will come later.

[Lord Flight]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I spent eight or nine years as a Member of the House of Commons when one particular side had a large majority. I felt that I was simply going through the motions and that there was no prospect of the Opposition members being able to stop that which the Government of the day wished to do. It was an elected tyranny by a large majority.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I look forward to hearing the noble Lord express that view in the debate on the reform of the House of Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has gone to the heart of the issue in many ways and I applaud him for what he has said. I do not agree with a lot of what he said, but at least he was dealing with the issues and not with the bland assertion that has come from some on the Benches opposite that this side, or those who are putting forward this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and his supporters, have somehow not got the point of the Bill, either out of deliberate perversity or just plain ignorance. The fact is that we simply disagree. We have to argue through that disagreement and Parliament is the right place to have the argument. In so far as that was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, was making, I agree with him wholeheartedly.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, that putting forward amendments in this way is not a tactic. It is part of a reasoned argument. Much of it has come not from the political side of these Benches, but from noble Lords on the Cross Benches, who have put forward well-reasoned amendments, although, of course, he may disagree with them. The noble Lord, Lord Flight, says that he sat through what he called “an elected tyranny” in the other House. Well, that “tyranny” was elected in 1997 and the British people, in whom he places so much faith over referendums, re-elected that “tyranny” in 2001 and again in 2005, so perhaps not so jolly tyrannical after all.

[Lord Flight]

Does the noble Baroness agree that there is a difference between how people vote at elections and what happens in the House of Commons? I was simply making the point that when any party has a large majority in the House of Commons, under the British system since it was changed by Walpole from the originally intended system in the Act of Rights, I am afraid that when there is a large majority it does function as an elected tyranny on either side.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

The fact that there is a difference in Parliament from what happens at elections is precisely what we are discussing. The fact is that after the passing of the Amsterdam treaty the British people re-elected a Labour Government and after the passing of the Nice treaty the British people re-elected a Labour Government. They had the opportunity to get rid of the Government on those occasions and they chose not to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, made a very interesting argument. He said, with passionate conviction, that the British people know best. Do we therefore extend that argument to a referendum on the current health proposals that are dominating our headlines and are probably far closer to the hearts of the British people than a lot of what we are discussing here? Did it occur to the Benches opposite to have a referendum on the increases in university fees?

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, if you do not mind me saying very briefly, I find the debate that we have been having since dinner of singular unreality. It reached its apotheosis in the last speech, which told us, “Keep calm dear, nothing is going to happen for 16 years. Everything is going so slowly, as they will be translating urgency from ‘urgence’ and back again and making something of it”. I am sorry, but you have to look back only one year to see a circumstance where there was a major crisis, when the Greek economy was on the point of collapse and the European Union, including Britain, decided that something needed to be done about it because otherwise there was a very real risk for the solidarity of the whole European financial structure. It is no good saying it will not happen. It has happened. Please do not tell me that it could not happen again.

So what happens then if you lock all the doors and throw all the keys out of the window, as the Government are absolutely determined to do? Their supporters have explained with enormous eloquence this evening how jolly happy we will all be when we throw all the keys away and we cannot unlock the door—we cannot do anything in less than two or three years or something like that—and we shall all be happy. What happens? They find some other way of doing it. That is what will happen now. And the British Government will help to find another way too, because it will be in our interests to do so.

This debate is a matter of total unreality. It has no meaning whatsoever. If the Government had a bit of common sense, they would see that the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, does have quite a lot of sense in it.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I suggest that what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has just said illustrates the very reason why this amendment is undesirable. It is not in the interests of this country to get sucked into bailing out economies that have gone off the rails as a result of the problems of sharing a currency. Had there been a requirement for a referendum, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the previous Government would not have been in a position to have committed this country to things to which he should not have committed us.

Charming and likeable though the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, may have been, this amendment is just another excuse for watering down the basic principle of this Bill. It is of less magnitude than the last amendment. Urgency is a subjective matter—it could arise; it could not arise—but the basic principle of the Bill is that the elite of British Governments will no longer be able to commit this country to loss of sovereignty and other such matters without the consent of the people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Flight]

Would the noble Lord give even just a little bit of credibility to the argument that the problem of different economies sharing the same currency is that the costs of some in the southern part of Europe have gone up 35 per cent while Germany’s costs have only gone up 10 per cent, so they have a big competitiveness problem, which is part of their fiscal problem? In the case of Spain and Ireland, the problem is that they have had a low rate of interest that is unsuitable for their own domestic rate of inflation, causing real interest rates to be negative. That caused everyone to borrow too much and the banks to lend too much, so they have had an overlending problem, in part caused by the fact that they are sharing an inappropriate currency. If they had their own currency, they could devalue when they had such a crisis.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am getting signals, quite rightly so, from my Front Bench so I really must not respond to the substance of that because I shall be turning this into a debate—which we ought to have in this House on these important matters—on fiscal and monetary issues in the European Union at present. I hope that the Government take note of the obvious interest on their own Benches in having the opportunity to discuss this matter and exchange our various perspectives on it. I wanted to intervene really just to support my noble friend’s excellent amendment. If it is accepted by the House, it will get rid of a large amount—80 or possibly 90 per cent of the damage—that could be done by this Bill. If this amendment goes through, Clause 3(4) would then read:

“The significance condition is that the Act providing for the approval of the decision states that … the decision falls within section 4 only because of provision of the kind mentioned in subsection (1) of that section, and … the effect of that provision in relation to the United Kingdom is not significant”.

In other words, the only exemption from the need to have a referendum would be in relation to matters that were not significant for the United Kingdom. Surely, to accept this particular amendment is a cost-free concession on the part of the Government. I cannot believe that the Government actually want to provide for having a referendum on something that is not significant for the United Kingdom. Am I perhaps wrong about this?

We need to probe the Government’s logic a little here, because what an extraordinary thing it would be if the Government want to take through Parliament a Bill providing for the possibility of having referenda on issues that are not significant for the United Kingdom. The Government cannot turn around and use the argument that what is significant or not might be a subjective and difficult matter to determine at any one point, because they have already accepted in this Bill, as it stands, the need to make a distinction between significant and non-significant. That argument cannot be made. The only argument that can be made is that we need to provide for having referenda on something that is not significant, which does not make the slightest sense. I ask noble Lords to envisage a scenario in which we have a referendum in this country on something that everybody accepts is not significant for the United Kingdom. We ask the electorate to focus their mind on a difficult, technical and perhaps rather abstruse matter—maybe a whole package of such matters, which is what the Government have been suggesting recently; to take the time to master the relevant briefs or at least make up their minds on this matter; and to take time off from their work or from their leisure activities and go to the polls on something that they are told in advance is not significant for the United Kingdom.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Risby]

My Lords, it is worth pointing out that the referendum is now part of our political culture. Indeed, it is not only part of our political culture, but right across the European Union referendums are deployed to get people’s views. It is now a fundamental part of the whole democratic process. However, the potential effect of this amendment is to make the referendum advisory. That is the point because if it is below 40 per cent the decision is referred back to Parliament. The essence of that argument is that the result ceases to be mandatory and effectively becomes advisory. That destroys the whole point of the reconnection process.

We are trying through the Bill to reconnect the people of this country with the European Union. It is a big challenge. If we are going to re-engage people in that process we must recognise that, if there is going to be constitutional change, the vast majority of people will want to feel that their voice is represented in the process. We owe that to them. I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that the 40 per cent figure is arbitrary. It would be absurd in a local or European election, when sometimes the figure drops below 40 per cent, to reject the result. That is not the way we do things. We must remind ourselves that the vast majority of people will want a referendum if there is going to be an important transfer of powers to the European Union.

The AV referendum showed us that on an important constitutional issue, the people of this country will be fully engaged. They took it seriously and voted in great numbers. I have the greatest confidence that in a matter such as the one before us, the potential transfer of additional powers to the European Union, they will of course be very interested. Therefore, I feel that turnout would be quite high.

We must make sure that people feel that when they vote, their vote counts and is decisive. Otherwise, it will destroy the point of the referendum. The referendum lock should be given without qualification; it is in the spirit of what the Bill is about. The fullest acceptance of the referendum result voted by the people is something that we should recognise. It is our duty as parliamentarians to do so.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I voted on two occasions for the Rooker amendment on AV. It is tempting to join the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, in taking the position that there may be a similar argument for supporting here an amendment that requires a 40 per cent turnout. However, the position is not at all analogous. In this situation, the aim is to protect the people of this country from having the powers of their Parliament and Government further diluted and given away, as has sadly happened in the recent past, with Parliaments breaking their word to citizens and acting in a way contrary to that which they promised—I refer, for example, to the recent Lisbon treaty.

It is very clear that the Bill is there as a protection for the British people, and it would be made meaningless if we said to them, “We are going to give you this lock and protection, but if less than 40 per cent of people vote, we will give power back to the Government of the day who command a majority in the House of Commons”. It is not an analogous situation to changing the voting system, where there were powerful arguments requiring an adequate turnout. It is not a situation that Burke would have supported in the slightest; he would have been absolutely against giving away the powers of the British Government and Parliament to another organisation. Either we give citizens a meaningful lock or we do not. Therefore, I feel no discomfort in opposing these amendments, having supported the Rooker amendment on AV; it is the whole point of the Bill.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I find myself in disagreement with both my noble friend Lord Lamont and the noble Lord behind him. I am opposed to referenda in any case and do not think that we should judge referenda, even if we are in favour of them, by the particular amendment that is before us. We should judge referenda as referenda. Therefore, to vote for a 40 per cent division between compulsory and advisory on one subject and not to vote for it on another seems not to hang together. The issue is not about the European Union. Everyone knows where I stand on that. It is about an issue which comes from before that. Long before there were these debates on the European Union, there were debates about referenda. I enjoyed debating them and I have not changed my view on them.

The parliamentary democracy which we have is the greatest gift which we have been able to give to the world as a whole. Irrespective of the comments of my noble friend Lord Risby, parliamentary democracy and referenda do not go together, as a matter of fact. The one comes from a different tradition and I am not going to be one of those who besmirches the tradition by referring to the use of referenda by such people as Louis-Napoleon. That would be wrong. But referenda do come from that tradition and not from our parliamentary tradition.

Therefore, I was much enlightened by the reminder which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, gave us of the great conservative thinker, Edmund Burke. He said that the embarrassing fact of being a parliamentarian is that you do have, in the end, to make up your own mind, even though the popular press, the women’s advisory committee of your association, the local doctors’ alliance and a whole range of other people tell you that you have got it wrong. I remind noble Lords of what happens if you take that away. It means that nobody with a strong view on abortion, for example, would be able to uphold his or her view in those circumstances. If he or she were to follow the views of the electorate, he or she would not be able to uphold what he or she thought was a moral position. The same would be true about capital punishment. No one would have voted against capital punishment if they had listened to the average elector over the past 30 or 40 years.

Let us not be too easily lulled into that simple concept of the referendum now being part of our democratic heritage. Referenda have always been used—I say this as a committed Conservative—in a way which has tended to favour those who take a very conservative attitude. My noble friend takes a very conservative attitude, so I am happy to give way to him.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I stand corrected and congratulate the noble Lord on his close reading of the Daily Mail. As you go down the Champs-Élysées, people are not saying to each other, “Do you know that the British are trying to block action under Articles 333.1 and 333.2, whereby one could have a qualified majority on the implementation of enhanced co-operation?”. No one knows what we are up to in this Parliament. No one in this country knows what we are up to. We are remote—we are in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. This is not the city of Athens; it is somewhere in the thickets of a forest outside.

Therefore, I feel that the Government’s principal argument—the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, spoke elegantly to it a moment ago—about the purpose of the Bill being to deal with mistrust and distrust is a little absurd. When these provisions are on the statute book, they will generate as little interest in the country as their passage, despite all our eloquence in this Chamber. There is no knowledge of these provisions outside and therefore no knowledge of the argument about distrust. It is possible that over time Jean-Claude Piris, counsel to the Council of the European Union, will prove to be more right in his prediction than even the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford. It is possible, and it seems to me plausible, that there will be a chilling effect on UK negotiators in Brussels as a result of these provisions. We know that there are going to be no referenda in this Parliament. We know that because, as the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, reminded us, the Government have said that they are not going to agree to any of these things being covered in the Bill anyway. I do not think that that is a big deal in Brussels and I do not want to exaggerate but, over time, it could become quite a big deal.

We have created an extraordinarily rigid structure with this Bill. Flexibility will be necessary—or most people will think that. The UK negotiator will be unable to agree to propositions which are in the UK interest because they would require a referendum in this country, and the Prime Minister will say to him, “We don’t want a referendum, so you have to block it. You can’t agree. Sorry, go away”. That is likely to happen over time and the result of that might be, as predicted by Jean-Claude Piris, that the others will say, “We’re stuck. The British won’t agree so we’ll go off and do it amongst ourselves”. Some, possibly the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, would consider that that was a very good thing, and in some cases it is conceivable that it would be a good thing. Others might want to do things in which we might not want to take part. However, there may be a measure in which we wanted to take part but the others felt that they could not include us because we had our referendum requirement. I speak as a rude mechanical who has spent a lot of time building things in Brussels.

I add a small very rude mechanical’s point. When the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, elegantly argued that we had not said anything in this debate about the euro, he was not strictly accurate. I hope that there is an outstanding point in the Minister’s mind, which is the reference in Clause 6(5)(e) to the euro. That, read with Clause 5(1), seems to me to mean that we would be submitting the wrong question to an Act of Parliament and referendum. The issue would be the rate at which the UK joined the euro, not whether the UK should join the euro. It seems to me that there is a little bit of overspecification in the drafting. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made the big point—nobody in this Chamber, so far as I know, and no amendment on the Marshalled List argues that there should not be an Act of Parliament and a referendum on joining the euro. Mine is a rude mechanical’s point—we have overspecified the decision which would be put to our Parliament and to a referendum.

We will move into a different kind of Shakespearean play on Report. I hope that the Government will reflect on some of the points which have been registered—some of them were very mechanical points, for which I apologise, but some of them were very big political points and were eloquently put from all sides of the House. I hope that we will see some changes proposed by the Government before we come back to this. We have spent far too long in the enchanted forest of A Midsummer Night’s Dream. I wish that I were able to make the last speech in Committee, having made the first. Unfortunately, I think that I will have to cede that role to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. I draw his attention to how Puck ends A Midsummer Night’s Dream. He states:

“If we shadows have offended,

Think but this, and all is mended,

That you have but slumber'd here …

And this weak and idle theme,

No more yielding but a dream”.

I wish that it were.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate as I had problems parking my bicycle on arriving at the House.

It seems to me that there is a perfectly fair debate to be had on what items should or should not be covered by referenda, but that there is no real case for treating this Bill as though it were in the same category as the counterterrorism legislation, and for arguing that it is suitable for a sunset clause. Once it becomes an Act—assuming it becomes an Act—it will not essentially be any different from other legislation in this country. It is, of course, perfectly straightforward for a Government to get elected on a manifesto that they will revoke this legislation, and so to do, but I do not believe that those supporting these amendments have made a proper case as to why the Bill should be treated any differently from other legislation. We have a perfectly established democratic process for removing legislation when a new Government are elected, if that is the will of the people. But the requirement would be for an incoming Government to have the will of the people to revoke this legislation. Secondly, if there were some automatic process of cancellation, a great legal hole would be left, unless the automatic sunset clause revoking the legislation were accompanied by fresh legislation at the same time to plug the many holes that need to be plugged that the Bill addresses.

The amendments are little more than an excuse to put the pro-EU cause and the anti-argument for this Government, who are quite rightly addressing the concerns of UK citizens. I sit down by making the comment that I feel uncomfortable that those who are opposed to the Bill seem to have the view that those British citizens—potentially the majority—who have become increasingly critical of the EU should be silenced in the interests of advocating the great EU cause. That is profoundly undemocratic in principle. Certainly, on this issue, a sunset clause would be wholly unsuitable.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I am a signatory to this amendment and, of course, support it. The noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, has provided a good deal of the history of referendums in other countries. The most recent case of a further referendum was in the Irish Republic, where the first referendum was held on 12 June 2008. During that referendum, Mr Barroso intervened to warn that, if the Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty, there was no plan B under any circumstances, and that there would be dire consequences not only for Ireland but for the whole of the European Union. Nevertheless, the Irish voted no on a 53 per cent turnout, with 53.4 per cent voting no and 46.6 per cent voting yes. There was pandemonium all over the place, especially in the European Union. Many people thought that the Irish had spoken and that that should be the end of the matter, especially as Mr Barroso had denied that there was a plan B, but obviously there was a plan B—another referendum. That took place on 2 October 2009. As noble Lords will know, the result was reversed after a bitter campaign, during which the European Commission and the Irish Government weighed in with taxpayers’ money—probably illegally, incidentally. According to Mr Jens-Peter Bonde, who at that time was a senior MEP, the Commission and the Irish Government between them spent millions of euros supporting the yes campaign. As if this huge support was not enough, large amounts were also contributed by vested interests, including €250,000 by Ryanair. In fact, 10 times as much was spent on the yes campaign as on the no campaign—little wonder, then, that the Irish people reversed their first vote by a 2:1 majority.

However, that was not the first time that the Irish people had been made to vote again. When they had the temerity to vote no to the Nice treaty, they had to vote again to provide the only answer that was acceptable to the European Union and the Irish Government—in other words, if people do not provide the right answer first time round, they will be made to vote again until they do. That is the impression that is given, and that is why in many respects the European Union and some of the nation states are held in contempt by their peoples.

However, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, the Irish people were not the only ones who were made to vote again. When the Danish people voted no to the Maastricht treaty in 1992, they were forced to vote again a year later in 1993. Again, the no campaign was out-financed and clobbered by their own Government and others with vested interests in obtaining a yes vote—and this was duly achieved. However, as noble Lords may remember, when the result was declared the Danish people were so annoyed that they actually rioted in Copenhagen, the police fired 113 shots into the crowd when it was trapped, and 11 people were treated for gunshot wounds. When people feel cheated about their decisions, in some cases and under some circumstances, they are prepared to cause mayhem and riot.

Therefore, for these and other reasons, I support the amendment and hope that the Government will accept it. Before I sit down, I ask for an assurance from the Government that in any referendum under the Bill they will not use taxpayers’ money to support one side of the argument, and that they will prevent the use of taxpayers’ money by any institution of the European Union to support one side of the argument. That should include the European Parliament, which has just voted for a change in funding rules that will allow cross-national EU political groups of MEPs to take part in referendum campaigns in member states. It would be quite outrageous if MEPs from any part of the EU, with taxpayers’ money through their expenses, were able to indulge themselves in a specifically British referendum. Unless the Government can assure us that they will block such activities, I support the amendment.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, it is very tempting to support the amendment, and the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, made some good points about expenses. The forced holding of second referenda has been shameful and has involved quite improper practices. However, I should like to make two points on why the amendment may not be appropriate for this country. The first is that any second referendum would require the approval of both Houses of Parliament. I trust that this House, unless it is dangerously interfered with, would act properly in that situation. Secondly, in the event of a referendum on “in or out” in which people voted to stay in but certain developments in Europe within the five-year period made the situation dramatically different, it would be unwise to be limited by a five-year rule that the UK could not reconsider the issue again in the light of future developments. Many Members of this House are sympathetic to the amendment on the improper use of forced second referenda, but such a measure would not be appropriate in this country.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, many people would be sympathetic to the amendment. There was, however, a difference between the two referenda in Ireland, and the difference was that the Irish Government believe that they negotiated a stronger deal. They were going to lose their Commissioner and various other things, so they negotiated hard and obtained changes.

The way in which Brussels went about things in the Republic was brutal. People felt intimidated and threatened, and their financial security was threatened. Of course we can see why that happened and the genuine concern. Public opinion in the Republic since the imposition of what the public regard as penal conditions surrounding the bailout is shifting against the European Union. I have no doubt that, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said, there was intimidation. It was not a pretty picture. However, one thing that would worry me about the amendment is that if a proposition were before our Government and Parliament that contained certain conditions that we objected to and those conditions were subsequently, because of the referendum, negotiated out, where would we be if we found that we had what we had asked for? We would not be able to do anything about it for five years. That is my only concern. I do not dispute the sentiment or what actually happened, because I saw it from next door, and it was brutal. However, the Irish Government negotiated a better deal. That is my only reservation about the amendment. If we found that we were able to negotiate, we would be hamstrung.

The other lesson is that having a referendum behind you as a requirement has proved to be a strong negotiating tool. The Irish are a classic example. Because of their fundamental financial weakness, they were not able to press it home, but they got improvements. In our circumstances, what would we do if we were able to negotiate what we wanted and achieved our objectives?

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[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, however many times the Irish people were asked to vote would have been a matter for the Government of Ireland. In the same sense, I hope that we would have sufficient sovereign pride to conclude such an issue ourselves, although I think it highly improbable. Perhaps I may add that the circumstances in which people might be asked to vote a third, fourth or subsequent time seem not at all likely.

[Lord Flight]

A problem for Ireland when it adopted the euro was that the inflation rate there was much higher than in Germany, which resulted in virtually negative interest rates in Ireland. That resulted in people borrowing as much as they could and putting the money into assets such as property. That produced the property bubble, and the bursting of the property bubble was the main cause of the banking system’s problems.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, anybody who looks at the difficulties that have been experienced in many mature economies, whether or not they are in the euro, will recognise that the financial problems created by property speculation and, in particular, by funding sub-prime derivatives in the property market have nothing whatever to do with the euro in most cases. It was a wave of mad speculation—it can only be described as madness—because it was possible to do it under the interest-rate conditions that obtained generally around the world. They are not so varied between countries in either hemisphere.

Of course it is true that in the referenda conducted in the countries that we are discussing, they concluded, as they were perfectly entitled to do, that what was being put in front of them was not good enough. We know, however, in part from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in terms of the role of the Commissioner in Ireland, and the issues that came up in Denmark on whether the people would be compelled into defence propositions that they did not like, or whether people in Ireland would be compelled to change the abortion law or consider NATO membership, that all of those things produced circumstances in which there was a no vote. Those Governments negotiated again and got those terms changed. Protocols were introduced in almost every incidence to get those terms changed. They then went back and asked the people of their countries whether the changes in terms were sufficient to merit a change in the view that they had taken.

That seems to me to be completely legitimate. I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would say that it is a legitimate outcome if you vote no by, say, 52.5 per cent—that is plainly a no vote; I understand that completely—but when it is put again it is completely illegitimate if something like 65 per cent of the people in that vote say yes. What is the point of a sovereign decision by people when they are asked to take a vote if you do not accept the outcome in either direction—like it or dislike it; it is irrelevant? It is their decision and they have taken it. The idea that any country, least of all this one, should feel that it is bound to be strong-armed into taking a different decision if the first decision does not accord with perhaps the general sentiment in Europe is completely fanciful. It is disrespectful to the people of this country and this debate has been disrespectful to peoples of other countries, too.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, if the noble Lord would be good enough to read my Bill, which is now top of the waiting list and is sitting in the Printed Paper Office not very far away, he would understand how we propose to go about a cost-benefit analysis, with a truly independent committee of inquiry reporting to Parliament and the people. However, the noble Lord makes a very good point. Although I am often asked this question, I cannot think of a single advantage or benefit that we have had from our membership of the European Union that we could not have had by friendly collaboration and free trade with our good neighbours in Europe.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, this amendment is not the correct vehicle to address what desperately needs to be addressed, which is the EU budget. It is completely unaccountable. I recollect that in the other place, for several years in the early 2000s, I had the task of going through the EU budget and debating it in the committee that existed for that purpose. It was extremely frustrating that there was no power to do anything about it. I am sure that this is somewhat out of date, but at that time roughly half of the budget went on the CAP, a quarter went on structural funds—the one area that seemed to be very positive and to have done useful work—and something like a quarter went on all sorts of strange pet projects. I remember discovering that £500 million, I think, had been allocated for the advancement of democracy in Africa, and only some £20 million had actually been identified as to where it had gone. Candidly, I think the EU budget has risen considerably more in the last decade than even out-of-control UK government expenditure. Therefore I am wholly sympathetic to the principle, and the EU budget will need to be properly democratically accountable and reined in. However, I do not feel that this amendment is the right way to address that problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, I have waited rather a long time to come into this debate. Having spent 16 years extremely closely involved in the European Union, more so than any other Member of the House, I thought I might come in briefly on this point in particular. We have had a presentation by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, which is quite specific to the proposal—a unique experience in some days of this Committee—and therefore we can concentrate on the point specifically, and that is what I would like to do.

We have now come to Schedule 1. The amendments to Schedule 1, which are all grouped together, are what I might call an à la carte menu, in that they all refer to separate issues but are grouped together. The amendments, including the one that has just been moved, would affect Schedule 1 quite substantially. They would have quite different effects but, they would reduce the extremely long list of 40 items in Schedule 1 which would be subject to the referendum block. If we examine them—if these referendums ever happened, which I do not think will be the case—there could be well over 40 referendums as a result of this schedule because some of the points cover various different issues within one article. Let us take it that Schedule 1 provides for 40 potential referendums dealing with issues such as the appointment of judges and other European Court of Justice personnel.

The whole of Part 2 of Schedule 1 would be deleted by Amendment 46. Specified issues relating to criminal procedure are the subject of Amendment 47. We also have the reverse, in that we have a proposal to add to the list in Schedule 1. Of course, we shall then come to whether Schedule 1 stands part. Therefore, the whole of Schedule 1 is in issue here.

The specific points under discussion require examination. This Chamber is the type of body that should look at these things in detail, and we should do that rather than just discuss broad issues about whether we are for or against the European Union. We should look at the proposals in front of us. The possibilities presented here should cause us to reflect on whether it is right to have a single mechanism—that is, a referendum—as the method of dealing with any possible changes in all the articles that are referred to in Schedule 1.

I have intervened only once to pose a question to the Minister. I do not think he actually replied but he is reflecting on it, no doubt. I will put the question again. Will the Minister consider, between now and Report, whether there are any items in Schedule 1 which could be removed from it and treated in the traditional manner in which we deal with issues in our system, namely by an Act of Parliament? We will come on later to articles where there are decisions to move by Act of Parliament, to which the Minister has already referred. It is our duty as a revising Chamber to decide whether all the items in Schedule 1 should remain there or whether some of them could be dealt with, as was recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, by the traditional method. That is an issue which should not just be put aside but should be reflected upon and referred to again on Report to see whether any changes should be made there.

I have one other point. Irrespective of the disagreements that we have seen demonstrated in this Committee about whether we are for the membership of the Union or wish to leave, or at least wish to have a public opinion on that point, we need to look at these quite specific points. When you look at the scale of this schedule, we are taking what I think is really a step change in the way in which we deal with issues by referendum or by parliamentary discussion and parliamentary Act. This is a really enormous change. It goes beyond the scope of this Bill, in my view. To tell the British public that we are presenting and perhaps passing a Bill which has the potential to give rise to 40 or 50 referendums on issues which a large number of people think are not very important is in fact quite an important issue.

I am sure that in future years people will say, “Well, we’ve moved over quite a bit towards a system of operating by referendum, so why do we not have referenda on other important things that involve our resources going outside the country?”. A good example would be international aid, which would be quite an interesting choice of the sort of issue that is being dealt with in the Government’s proposal in this Bill. We could have one on immigration or quite a lot of other things. In my view, there will be pressure in future years for more referenda on many of these issues because, by taking this Bill through, we will have accepted that we are abandoning the system of decision by Acts of Parliament on a large number of issues. We are accepting that and changing very basically how we do things. We may think that we are just dealing with this Bill; in my view, we are dealing not just with this Bill but with an important precedent for the use of referenda elsewhere.

I would like to make that point because it is customary in the Committee stage of this Bill to make points that go rather wider than the immediate issues. I thought I should like to have my chance to do that before we come to the seventh, or possibly eighth day, of Committee. I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said on the specific amendment.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, on his summing up of Schedule 1 from where he stands. As noble Lords will be aware, there are very much opposing amendments within the amendments that have been grouped together for Schedule 1. I have tabled Amendment 47A, which is really at the other side of the table from Amendments 45, 46 and 47, which I do not support.

Amendments 45 and 47 seek to remove JHA vetoes, including on police co-operation and the EPP and the veto on the appointment of judges, which I would argue are precisely the type of treaty changes that would extend competence from the UK to the EU in sensitive areas and which actually warrant a referendum. Amendment 46 removes all vetoes in TFEU from the referendum lock covering sensitive areas such as social security, social policy, employment policy, justice, home affairs and some tax and defence issues.

Amendment 47A, to which I am speaking, raises a further area of potential transfer of powers from the UK to the EU and proposes the requirement for a referendum which has not been included in the Bill. This is really an illustration that the Bill has not, as some have argued, covered every conceivable territory of transfer of powers but aims to pitch the requirement for a referendum on what the Government perceive as major red line areas.

As noble Lords will be aware, few aspects of trade agreements are now subject to unanimity post-Lisbon. The norm is now a majority. Amendment 47A would subject to a referendum an amending treaty or Article 48(7) TEU ratchet decision, which abolished the veto over negotiation and conclusion of EU trade agreements with non-EU countries and international organisations in the three main areas that were exemptions in Lisbon and covered sensitive issues and thus remained subject to unanimity. First there are the agreements which cover trade in services, the commercial aspects of intellectual property or foreign direct investment, where the agreements include provisions for which unanimity would be required for the adoption of equivalent internal EU rules. That is the most important of the three. Secondly, there are the agreements covering trade in cultural or audiovisual services that,

“risk prejudicing the Union’s cultural and linguistic diversity”.

Thirdly, there are agreements covering trade and social, education or health services that risk seriously disrupting the national organisation of such services and prejudicing the responsibility of member states to deliver them.

EU international trade agreements are binding on member states. The removal of the national veto in some or all of these areas would represent a transfer of power from the UK to the EU in politically sensitive and economically important territories.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I wonder whether he is conscious of two matters. First, the placing of these articles in the TFEU was done expressly at the sole insistence of the Government of France and that successive British Governments, both the Government of Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major and the Government of Mr Blair, in successive treaty negotiations, tried to remove these obstacles to making change through negotiations on a reciprocal basis. They concluded—and I concur—that it was in Britain’s interest that these matters should be negotiable without a French veto. I wonder whether the noble Lord is aware of that. Secondly, is he also aware that the provision for majority voting on trade matters was in the treaty that was signed in the 1960s, which was in force when we joined the European Community? At the moment, he is speaking as though he might have landed from Mars.

[Lord Flight]

I thank the noble Lord for his, as ever, instructive intervention. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who is sadly not here today, was very involved in the convention on the constitutional treaty and therefore, I believe, is the best informed Member of this House about how these issues were left as exemptions qualifying for unanimity in the Lisbon negotiations.

Secondly, with regard to the position of past UK Governments, those were the positions at that time. The point that I am seeking to make is that we have three areas that, whatever the position of past Governments, could result in transfers of power from the UK to the EU. The point of my amendment is, as I said at the beginning, to illustrate that the Bill does not cover every potential transfer of power; it has been limited to that which the Government consider to be the major issues. However, I believe that the noble Lord, having educated us in the history of this, would not deny that the situation is such that, in these three areas, there could be transfers of power without any treaty so requiring them. As I have already said, this amendment is illustrative and I am sure that there are many other areas where this Bill does not put forward requirements for a referendum on matters that potentially transfer powers because those matters are not deemed to be of prime importance.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I want to address briefly—

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Risby]

I will be delighted to. I will come in a moment to a discussion of various elements such as passerelle clauses, which I hope will cover this point.

Clause 6 sets out which passerelles would automatically trigger a referendum if powers or competences were moved from the UK to the EU. We touched, for example, on the matter of defence. This reflects the reality for us that EU member states have different relationships with third countries and different foreign policy priorities. For example, the UK has particularly strong relationships with interests in the Commonwealth. It would be wrong to give the EU the ability to prevent us developing these relationships. I am sure that that is perfectly logical, and it is covered in Article 31(3).

I turn to measures on working conditions and social security. Noble Lords will know that QMV already applies to many decisions concerning the health and safety of workers, working conditions, informing and consulting workers, combating social exclusion, modernising social protection systems, as well as to decisions in areas such as the European social fund. However, there are important things left for unanimity; for example, social security and the social protection of workers, the protection of workers when their employment contract is terminated, et cetera. These things can have a huge impact on the life of an individual nation and the businesses that add to the prosperity of that nation. Any move to QMV could jeopardise independent national decisions on that score. If we look at environmental matters, for example, they are mostly covered by QMV, but there are others that are still subject to unanimity. We would, of course, like to retain national control of what is left on the environment where there is a fiscal element attached to them: town and country planning; the management of water resources or the availability of those resources or land use; and, of course, the choice of energy resources and the general structure of the energy supply. These are very important for people at an individual level, a community level and a national level.

So, as we look at this debate and hear the discussion, I find it rather perplexing that our currency alone seems to have a critical aspect for our relationship with the EU. I think it is misplaced. There are all these other areas of vital concern to our national interest which concern people in terms of our relationship with the European Union. Coming back to my original point, it is precisely because we want to defuse the difficulties that have arisen in terms of public opinion and the public’s attitude to the European Union with a totally pragmatic Government—that has been obvious in the past year—that this Bill is in place. If we have red lines, they have to be very clear and very red. The amendments would make the Bill incoherent and make the public very suspicious and alienated. That is exactly what this Bill seeks to avoid.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I rise to address the amendments tabled in my name. As I understand it, Clause 6 addresses areas that are suitable for the requirement of a referendum in two of the ways in which a veto could be given up which are not covered by Clauses 2 to 4. They are, through the other part of the simplified revision procedure using Article 48(7) of TEU, effectively a third type of treaty change, and the six specific cases are dealt with by the passerelle.

The amendments are grouped somewhat strangely in that my Amendments 35A, 35B, 48A and 48B are on one side of the argument and all the others, with the exception of Amendment 40A, are in one way or other seeking to reduce situations where a referendum and Act of Parliament are required. Self-evidently, I do not agree with those amendments.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

It is astonishing how little listening and how much assertion there is in this debate. I spent quite a lot of time trying to say that the amendments in this group that I and others have tabled do not seek to remove the requirement for primary legislation by Parliament when any of these changes are made. I speak very slowly because it is a point that the noble Lord has just contradicted. Indeed, they are designed to remove the referendum requirement, but not the requirement for primary legislation, which is an addition to the existing requirement under the Lisbon ratification.

[Lord Flight]

I thank the noble Lord for his interruption. He enlightens Members of this House as he has done previously. I am well aware that he accepts the Act of Parliament and that it is the referendum to which he is opposed. He obviously lacks faith in the trust of ordinary people and for some reason does not seem to realise that the tool of the referendum is essentially there as a deterrent in order to discourage the EU gathering more power unto itself and the sort of behaviour that we had from the Government who were in power in this country until the most recent general election.

I will, if I may, continue. The amendments in my name cover examples of areas that come to light, on looking at the various territories to which Clause 6 might relate, in which there is indeed scope for power to transfer from the EU without the check of a referendum, and sometimes even without the check of an Act of Parliament. I am quite sure that there are many other areas in which there remains scope for powers to transfer. The point of my two amendments is, above all, that within the range of areas that it might be deemed appropriate to require a referendum, there is balance in the Bill—a whole range of territories that transfer powers but in which referenda are not required.

My amendments relate to two cases. First, as your Lordships will be aware, Article 25 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union allows the Council to adopt any provisions to strengthen or to add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of the TFEU. Article 25, which deals with the basic rights of EU citizens, appears to allow a fundamental extension of the scope of EU law. This in effect would alter the list of rights in Article 20(2). Article 25 provisions could well amount to treaty change. Extended rights for EU citizens would transfer power from the UK over whether it accorded such rights to nationals of other EU member states. There is clearly a debate here. Is it appropriate that measures that considerably extend the political rights of non-nationals, because they are members of other EU states, could occur without the agreement of the people living in those states?

The second territory is slightly more complex. Currently the EU is not a party to the European Convention on Human Rights. Lisbon introduced Article 6(2) of the TEU, which provides that the EU will accede to the ECHR, and as your Lordships will be aware this is currently being negotiated. The issue here is that any EU law that is modified in response to a finding of non-compatibility with ECHR rights would subsequently be binding on member states, so if the EU accedes to all ECHR rights—and, yes, I am well aware that there has to be unanimity for it so to do and that it has to go through the appropriate procedures in each country—EU legislation could be altered as a result. Therefore, EU accession to the ECHR could result in a transfer of power from the UK to the EU over whether the UK is bound by the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights in areas that fall within the wide scope of EU law. So here, again, we have the question as to whether such a transfer is appropriate for a referendum.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but I think it would be helpful if he recognised that the provision in Lisbon that enables the EU to accede to the European Convention on Human Rights is in fact a transfer of powers away from the European Union, not towards it from this country, and it is a transfer to an organisation and a set of judicial procedures to which we are already a party. I therefore find it extraordinarily hard to see how the noble Lord manages to weave this into the tapestry of the Government’s excessive—in my view, in any case—desire to subject matters to referendums.

[Lord Flight]

While there is obviously a differentiation between the European Court of Human Rights and the EU, the point I was making was that if there is accession the result could be an important overriding of UK law by the ECHR and decisions taken by the ECHR in due course becoming binding in the law of this land. This is effectively a change and a giving away of power by the UK to the ECHR rather than the EU in terms of its law making.

To conclude, these two amendments are essentially illustrative. As I commented earlier, looking across the total territory, there are many areas where the arrangements surrounding the EU and bodies such as the ECHR continue to cater for powers being taken without the requirement of an Act of Parliament and certainly without the requirement of citizens having a say in it. The argument that this Bill is right over the top in terms of the areas where it requires a referendum is nonsense. Let me assure your Lordships that there are scores of other areas where a transfer of power could occur where no referendum is being provided for.

Contrary to the arguments put by noble Lords from the other side of the House, a reasonable balance has been adopted by this Bill. Those of us who are perhaps on the other side of the argument would make the point that there are many areas which this Bill does not address where we can still see scope for power being transferred.

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, I rise to comment on the European public prosecutor, the subject of an amendment by my noble friend Lord Goodhart who is not in his place. The potential establishment of the European public prosecutor finds its origins in concerns about budgetary fraud and the improper diversion of grants and aids. The purpose is to improve co-operation and to co-ordinate legal action among member states. It would potentially involve the establishment of a uniform code of criminal offences of fraud against the EC budget applicable in all member states and a uniform set of procedural rules applicable in investigations. Together that would constitute a so-called corpus juris, which would be enforced by the European public prosecutor’s office. I regard this as a significant potential change as a lawyer, but also not as a lawyer.

It seems that the rationale behind the potential establishment of the EPPO ought on the face of it to attract the support of the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, it would amount to a substantial change in criminal jurisdiction. The idea of national prosecutors on secondment from the EPPO in the UK is a significant alteration to our system, which provides that it is for the Crown to prosecute criminal offences. Once established, there would inevitably be steps taken to introduce rules which might not sit easily with our common law systems.

Article 86 provides that an EPP,

“shall exercise the functions of prosecutor in the competent courts of the Member States”.

This means that we would give up control of a fundamental part of our judicial system; namely, the decision on who can be prosecuted for what and, equally important, the decision not to prosecute in some circumstances. It is now the province of the CPS. The EPP will initially be concerned with only crimes affecting the financial interests of the union, although that definition is likely to prove particularly elusive. However, by a passerelle in the treaty, the powers of the EPP can be extended to cover any serious crime with a cross-border dimension, which gives it a potentially very wide remit. One has to think only of the problems with the European arrest warrant, to which my noble friend Lord Lamont referred, and the definition of serious crimes.

The creation of an EPP has not met with much enthusiasm from our friends on the other side of the House. When the matter was discussed at length in 2002 and 2003, Justice said it thought that a European court of criminal justice would have to be established. The Law Society of England and Wales and the Law Society of Scotland did not think a case had been made out for it. The European Union Committee of your Lordships’ House concluded that a European public prosecutor was not a realistic and practical way forward, stating:

“The benefits of creating another body and in particular an EPP, whose existence and processes could cut across national criminal laws and procedure and which might not be accountable to democratically elected representatives, have yet to be clearly and convincingly demonstrated”.

While even the most ardent Eurosceptic would support all reasonable steps to improve the detection and punishment of fraud in relation to grants and aids, surely this can be better achieved by co-operation between member states in the sharing of information and evidence, and access to information, rather than by the creation of a supranational prosecuting body.

It is suggested that there should be harmonisation of criminal procedures if there is to be an EPP office. The problems with harmonising procedures have been confronted by the courts in this country in the context of the ECHR. For example, Articles 5 and 6 of the convention have had to be interpreted by the courts as to whether they respect or are in total harmony with the right to a fair trial and the right to protect suspects. The courts have had considerable difficulty in the attempt to try to harmonise systems with different origins. It is not impossible that there could be a real conflict between the CPS and its view of what is within its province and the national prosecutor for the European public prosecutor trying to do the same thing.

If a future Government want us to join in with the establishment of a new EPP office, I suggest that the case should be made to Parliament and to the British people. It may not be their everyday obsession, but they should and can be educated, and not just by the Daily Express, about the question of a European public prosecutor. It is an important matter that goes to the fundamentals of justice. This amendment seeks to take away the safeguards that are fundamental to the Bill and to the philosophy underlying it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, that may be one explanation. The other may well be that they do not have the courage to do it on all occasions and they are afraid of the kicking that they will get from much of the media if they actually fight the case out. That is very much more likely to happen, I am afraid.

[Lord Flight]

I think it was one of the noble Lord’s colleagues who made the point that it was the Wilson Government who first used the vehicle of the referendum because they were unable to take the decision themselves. I just make the point that as a young person who participated in it at that time I thought that it was absolutely correct. The fact that it may have been born of weak political circumstances was irrelevant. I grew up thinking that it was a crucial constitutional matter and the sort of issue that ordinary people should have a chance to have a direct say in.

[Lord Triesman]

I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Flight. I took part in that referendum as a young activist in the Labour Party who believed strongly that we should retain our relationship with Europe. Many of my colleagues were not only in disagreement with me but in pretty hostile disagreement with me. The thing that I remember most about that, apart from the dissent that it opened up—our problem, our party—was that it was a fundamental and critical constitutional issue for the United Kingdom and exactly the sort of thing that I would have believed would be defined as significant in the sense that I have tried to present to your Lordships' House this evening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, it is of course entirely true. That is the other conclusion that one should draw from some referenda—that whatever the decision of the British people taken in a sovereign way, it does not stop anybody from coming back on future occasions.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords—

[Lord Triesman]

I should really try to make some progress, if I may.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention because it reminds me of the series of visits by individuals and groups—schools, universities, students, blue-collar workers, white-collar workers, business community groups, trade unions and all sorts of public and private institutions—not only to the European Parliament but to the Commission to see how they work. Taking Eurosceptic and anti-European individuals from the British Parliament on their first visit to Brussels, I have had the personal pleasure of witnessing how they change their mind when they see how it works. It is in no way a threat to our country.

[Lord Flight]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. In view of his assessment of public opinion, is he therefore a supporter of having a referendum on staying in or not staying in so as to resolve the issue once and for all?

[Lord Dykes]

I assume that my noble friend was present during the Second Reading of the Bill.

[Lord Flight]

I was not.

[Lord Dykes]

If my noble friend looks at the report of the Second Reading in Hansard, he will see that that point came out a lot. Many speeches on this side of the House, as well as on the opposition and Cross Benches, were very much against the referendum concept, particularly in the Bill but also in general. There is widespread anxiety about it in this country, which I share. The noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, recently said publicly that he was against referenda of all kinds. He is not here today—he is abroad this week—but he told me that he is very sceptical about referenda and their misuse. The whole of Parliament has been undermined by this obsession—this referendumitis—and it is therefore essential to try to get away from it or to have referenda only on crucial occasions. That is what I consider to be the very respectable reserve position of the Liberal Democrat Party. I believe that some members of the opposition Benches and some Cross-Benchers share the view that we should have referenda only on crucial existential occasions and not on other things.

I must not tax the Minister’s patience—he is a very patient person—by making too many general points but they do take us back to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. The best way to undermine Parliament is to say that we are going to badger the British public all the time and ask them about these minor points. Of course, accession is not a minor point but we discussed minor points in previous Committee sittings. Accession is a more major matter and therefore the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is correct to say that it is illogical not to include it as an item on which a referendum should be held. However, I am glad that on this occasion, in their wisdom, the British Government have decided that it should not be on the list of such items. I only wish that they would kindly consider a lot of the other matters that we have been discussing—particularly the Article 48(6) list of items under Clause 4.

We will find that Clause 6 is even more obnoxious in its menacing effect on Parliament, even though Parliament will still be involved in the decisions. Of course, if there were an accession matter to be decided, under the existing suggestions Parliament would have the right to hold a referendum if it thought that it was correct to do so. However, I hope that that will not be the case, and I think that a lot of people will now have second thoughts about this referendumitis.

We should remember that huge, earth-shattering decisions have been made by this Parliament—one of the greatest Parliaments in the world—on matters ranging from the Second World War, joining NATO, the atom bomb, the formation of the UN and, before that, the League of Nations and the First World War. All those matters were decided by Parliament, as is the British tradition. It is not the British way to say, “Dear hapless members of the public, we want you to make a referendum decision on whether we should have more passerelles and what you would like to be included in those passerelles”. That would be the big society gone mad in European terms and I hope that we will get away from that.

I think that sometimes the noble Lords, Lord Stoddart and Lord Pearson, are unfairly attacked in this House. They are entitled to their views, although I think it is sad that they persist in wanting this country to be on its own and not be a member of the European Union. That is very sad for them personally, as well as being a matter of policy and viewpoint; none the less, in all the amendments that they will be putting forward from now on, they deserve to have a proper and respectful hearing in this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

There has been much support in our debates so far against referendums for all but the most important issues such as the euro, and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, echoed that in his speech. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, comes to mind, and many others. As this is a theme running through so much of our debate, I felt that I should make just one comment.

To put it mildly, we, the political class, are not particularly popular. I fear I detect a feeling out there among the people, in many discussions and in many fora, that our system of representative parliamentary democracy has, to some extent, broken down, or at least that it is not the great instrument it was before, the one which was exported all over the world. I think that there is now greater support for more of a plebiscitary democracy. Our system of representative parliamentary democracy worked very well in the 17th, 18th, 19th and even early 20th centuries, when many, if not most, people could not read and often led lives of endless drudgery and when better educated people were elected to Parliament to take their decisions for them. But now the people can read and, on the whole, are just as good and capable as their politicians. I believe that something like the Swiss democratic system, with its referendums—not, perhaps, going quite as far as the Californian system, with its difficulties over tax and the rest of it—really is now the only way in which to restore their democracy to the people. To those of the political class who laugh at this and decry such a prospect, I merely say, “They would, wouldn’t they?”.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, it seems to me that the three areas where the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is suggesting the lock-in of the referendum should be removed are fundamental to the argument about needing to have the requirement for referenda to lock in the position as it now is. They are about our common law system, our criminal justice system and our social security provisions. These are crucial areas and, as others have pointed out, because of their importance we negotiated, and were satisfied to get, the emergency brakes at Lisbon.

Some may not agree or be comfortable with the use of required referenda to act as a lock-in to the position that we are in; that is their view. But the whole point of the Bill is to protect citizens against UK Governments, as they have done over the past 20 years, gradually ceding more and more powers without any form of consent from the electorate or from changes in Europe to which the Government are not necessarily a party having the same effect. It would be completely illogical for the Government, having decided to embark upon this Bill, suddenly to say, “We are quite happy after all not to have the lock-in on the crucial area where we have emergency brakes”. The amendment is rather, dare I say, a waste of time, because it goes to the heart of what the Bill is about.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

I pose a question to the Minister and not just to join side 1 or side 2, which is a feature of Committee. We are dealing with Clause 4, which is headed, “Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum”. The purpose of the amendment is to remove some elements from that requirement. We will soon discuss a whole series of amendments—Amendments 23B to 23M—which relate to different subjects but have the same single purpose. They identify areas where, if a proposed decision is considered beneficial to the UK, it could be decided by Parliament without a national referendum. That is what we are talking about on this amendment and will be talking about on many more amendments, which will probably take us right up to dinner time.

Of course, some of these questions could probably be decided in any case under existing powers without any treaty change—that is quite possible in many cases—or any decision under Article 48(6). However, areas such as cross-border crime, which is the subject of a couple of amendments, might require such a decision. For this reason, I pose this question. I emphasise that it is a question, not a statement of opinion. If the Government, or more importantly Parliament, consider a small change that would require the operation of, for example, Clause 4(1) or Clause 6(5), and they thought that it was advantageous to the United Kingdom to do so, can the Minister envisage any circumstance in which it could be adopted without a referendum? I exclude from the question codification, which we will come to; measures applying to other member states but not to the UK; and accession treaties covered by Clause 4(4). That last point might be disputed, as it was earlier in the Committee. However, I pose my question. It is important for the further consideration of the Bill that we should know whether future decisions that are favourable to the UK but that would require these changes can ever be decided without a referendum.

European Union Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I speak in support of this amendment, though I support more drastic surgery in terms of reducing the number of areas in which a referendum would be required. This amendment, however, goes in the right direction. In supporting it, I make two points, which arise from what the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Waddington, said.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made an extremely important point, which has been overlooked so far, but which is integral to my own approach and some of the amendments I have put down for later debate. It is not suggested that we should go back to the status quo ante, to the situation prevailing under this House and the other place’s ratification of Lisbon, a situation where these decisions should be endorsable purely by a resolution of both Houses. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said in his introduction that his amendments accepted that it would go back to primary legislation. The position of Parliament in approving these matters would be strengthened over the present situation. That is, frankly, a very important point. I hope that the Government will take due account of that. There is an acceptance among a number of us—and that is true of amendments of a more drastic kind that I have tabled and which we will debate later—that we should not just be going back to the Lisbon provisions, but should be going back to Lisbon plus.

The second point relates to points made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. As one of those who are moving amendments, I do not contest the analysis that the Government have made, namely that support for the European Union in this country has been losing ground and that there is often dissatisfaction with measures taken in Brussels. It would be quite stupid to deny that. What I, and probably some others who are moving amendments, contest is whether a whole list of referendums on matters of highly technical, and some might say trivial, interest would actually help to deal with that situation. My own view—and I would be interested to hear anybody contesting this—is that it would actually make it worse. If we went around the country trying to persuade our compatriots why they should vote in a referendum on whether or not additional advocates-general should be created by qualified majority voting, or whatever, they would think we were certifiable. Certifiable or not, the reason I am supporting these amendments, and moving my own amendments, is not because I dispute the analysis, but because I dispute the prescription.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, it is a sad fact that this legislation is needed because successive Governments have let down the people of this country in failing to protect our national interests—particularly the last Government.

A sensible balance has been achieved in this Bill. There are as many items that do not require referenda as those that do require referenda. A reasonable, practical and sensible balance has been achieved. This amendment is about waiving the referendum in cases of urgency and national interest. I am not quite sure what that means, but it occurs to me that we are right now living at a time when several European countries are in dire financial straits, largely as a result of being uncompetitive, having adopted the common currency. I can just see a financial crisis coming up in due course in Europe and the classic argument being put that, in the interests of urgency and in protecting us from some of the contagion, there is an urgent need for the introduction of far greater collective decisions on matters fiscal and economic. This would be the ultimate objective of achieving a European state with fiscal and economic powers. Should this, as has been suggested, slip by under one of the three different new powers that we have for introducing measures without referenda if it qualifies as being in the national interest out of urgency? No, the Bill has struck a sensible balance, as I have said, and putting up a whole list of new potential excuses that should remove the need for referenda is merely ducking the issue and trying to weaken the impact of the Bill.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, I was not going to speak to this group of amendments, but I have been provoked by the previous speaker. He seems to suggest that we are implying in these amendments that there will be circumstances in which we seek to hide behind amendments such as these in order to deal with circumstances of economic and monetary convergence. We should, however, look at the current reality.

I have just come back from spending two and a half weeks with some of our continental friends in the European Union. Even though I am a teetotaller, I spent a number of hours in a number of quite agreeable bars speaking to expatriate Brits there, among others. They are not complaining about the strength of sterling and the weakness of the euro; they are complaining about the exact opposite. They are complaining about how weak the pound sterling is and how few euros it buys them in what they had anticipated would be golden years spent in the sunshine. I recall, when I first became involved in buying a property in Spain some five years ago, buying euros at the rate of 65p to the euro. Now I have managed to sell my house in Spain, I was able to repatriate money at the rate of 89p to the euro. That shows that the euro has improved by 38 per cent vis-à-vis sterling. There is a serious point to this, because when we talk about the rising costs of our membership of the European Union, they are the rising costs of a budget that is denominated in euros.