Employment Rights Bill

Lord Goddard of Stockport Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 23rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

The noble Lord has plainly given the Government solid pause for thought on that point, because of course any proceedings before a tribunal of first instance can be withdrawn by the litigants. The litigants in this case would be the Secretary of State and the other party—presumably the employer. If subsection (3) is given the interpretation that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, suggests might be given to it, the worker would be treated as the litigant. That is a difficult point for the courts to resolve. It is a point that at Third Reading the Government really must resolve, and that I entirely accept.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

Follow that. I failed my Bar exam at 11 and I never retook it, so I am at a disadvantage to the House in trying to sum up the debate on this amendment. My noble friend Lord Marks made the case that this is not just an open-and-shut, bonkers piece of legislation; there is more to it.

Last week, I went for my health check, and I had my blood pressure and cholesterol checked. I recommend that the noble Lord, Lord Murray, keeps away from his doctor until probably next Wednesday, because his blood pressure will probably come down by then. That is meant in good spirit, because the noble Lord believed what he said and expanded on it.

For me, there is a different question here. This got a real going over in Committee too, where it all got a bit contentious with the lawyers. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, always rises carefully and slowly and makes a forensic examination. Unfortunately, my noble friend Lord Marks tries to challenge that, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has to have three or four more goes. However, we are not in the High Court, we are in the House of Lords, so we listen to the exchange.

The point that I am trying to make is that we have spoken to the Government. When somebody said, “We’ve spoken to the Government”, others went, “Ooh, no!” That is the point. There is the Bill and we should talk to the Government. We should raise our concerns with them and see what they have to say. But you do not do that because, “This is a good open goal. This is one we can really embarrass the Government with”. Well, you cannot—because the Secretary of State will have the power to look after somebody who needs looking after.

All those hundreds of years ago, when we had slaves, it was not the slaves who were petitioning to be freed; it was liberal-minded people who thought it was wrong that they should have no say and no place. That is what happens. Workers get jobs. They may be illegal or migrants, but whatever they are, they are human beings and they deserve support. Yes, the state is ultimately the last resort. When everything else fails—health, sickness, drug addiction or whatever it is—the state is the ultimate provider of care from the cradle. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the state saying—

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, I too need to apologise to the House because I have not spoken previously on the Bill. I am therefore required, I am afraid, to add a few seconds of tedium in declaring my interest as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I am required to do that, but I emphasise that I am speaking tonight in a personal capacity.

I rise to question what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, and others who referred to the Government’s desire to protect those people who are vulnerable, who might be migrants or new arrivals, and who might not know their rights under the law. Of course that is a laudable aim. However, as someone who is a first-generation migrant—I came to this country in my own capacity—and who has slowly learned of my rights and my ability to exercise them, I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, that there is very good reason why those people need autonomy and privacy. They may not wish to be the subject of litigation because they have very palpable concerns about safety and their economic and familial status, particularly in a world with social media and high levels of media attention, if they are exposed as having done anything at all these days.

The reason that migrants and vulnerable new arrivals in our country keep a low profile, when they choose to do so, is very understandable. The idea that the state should pluck them, decide that they have been badly treated and use them as an example is pretty shocking and deleterious to their interests. It will not help them; they will hide under cover even more than they already do.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I heard what the noble Baroness said, and I accept her premise. By the same rule of that premise, those people suffer or are treated badly until they become accepted in society and can then raise their heads above the parapet—if that is the logic of the argument the noble Baroness is trying to make to me. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, makes it quite clear that anonymity is absolutely four-square in this, so it does not happen that the media get hold of it or it appears on the networks and makes things different.

Where a case ends up with the Secretary of State and the evidence is there that somebody is in such a situation, why should the Government not intervene and say, “You have been treated so badly that we are going to stand up for you in a tribunal” or, “We are going to try to do something”? If you look at the bigger picture rather than the individual pictures, there is a way through this, without thinking that it is—this is the last time I will say it—a bonkers Bill. It is not bonkers. The theory behind it is sound. Perhaps it has not been explained clearly enough.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

How does the noble Lord envisage the Secretary of State knowing which cases to bring?

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I said at the beginning that I am not a legal person. But there must be something that will happen: a whistleblower or somebody will inform somebody of someone’s condition that they find intolerable, it ends up with someone and somebody has to deal with it. If you go to see the person and they do not want to get involved, are frightened, are unsure or do not know their rights, who scoops that person up and just asks the question? Maybe it is not worth pursuing, but what is wrong with just asking the question?

I ask the Minister to confirm this flexibility that we need to understand the powers. Will they be used proportionately and transparently? We need to hear that. The Government need to tell us how this legislation will work practically. If they can explain, and perhaps not allay all the House’s fears but begin to give some clarity to the thinking behind it, because this is something that has been thought out quite seriously, the House should listen to that.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Leong (Lab)]

Front Bench.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

No, I give up.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I do not believe that for a moment.

This has been such an important debate. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and my fellow lawyer—not solicitor—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for what has certainly been a long-standing advocacy on behalf of freelance workers. As my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay said, with all his experience as a Minister, there is no doubt that freelancers play a vital role in our economy and their interests deserve proper attention.

We on these Benches have also made the case that this issue is likely to become more urgent after the passage of the Bill. We cannot avoid the suspicion that the Bill is going to drive more workers into at least considering turning freelance. Time will tell, but as the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, pointed out, the number could rise towards 3 million freelance workers.

We are all very grateful indeed to the Minister for organising an important meeting on this subject, because it was most useful. We welcome the Government’s intention to create a freelance champion, announced last month as part of the creative industries sector plan. That may be half a loaf, but it is a welcome enough commitment. We recognise the intent behind the amendment to establish a freelance commissioner, but at the moment, in the light of the assurances given by the Minister, we feel that the Government should have the benefit of the doubt for now, not least because we are not totally persuaded that the creation of another public body is the only solution.

What freelancers certainly need is clarity, simplicity and proportionate support. If the new champion can deliver that, all well and good. But we remain of the opinion, as came across in some of the contributions we had in Committee and just now, that socialists despise the very concept of freelancing. “How dare workers choose to avoid our elaborate structures?”, some of them say. So we will be watching with a very keen eye to see how this proceeds, particularly in the light of the speeches we just heard from the noble Lords, Lord Hendy and Lord Berkeley.

As we salute the expertise of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on the creative arts, I take this opportunity to assure him that if he is unsatisfied that the Government’s measures adequately address the issues that have been raised, we will certainly be on his side. So I encourage him to remain vigilant and to keep the Government’s feet to the fire. In the meantime, we look forward with great interest to what the Minister will say in response to the many questions that have been raised in this debate, in particular about the urgency of this problem.

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[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the two amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Wolf because I entirely share her concern that the Bill as drafted could have a damaging effect on apprenticeships, especially for young people and especially in small firms.

I am very grateful to my noble friend for her kind words, but I do not think that in this particular debate I would be greatly missed, because she and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, have said everything that I could possibly have said—so I am not going to add a great deal to that. It is just as well that I did not choose 24 July as my departure date because, if I had, I would turn into a pumpkin at midnight and apparently we would have to adjourn the House for me to continue my speech—it has been done in the past.

I very much welcome the fact that the Government are undertaking some important consultations in this area, including on employment status. It is very important that they should look at the issues impacting apprenticeships for young people and in small firms, and they should, I hope, come up with some evidence for what sort of action might be needed to address those issues and prevent the kind of impacts that my noble friend described. That may well involve recognising, as so many other countries do, the fact that apprenticeships are a different form of employment from other forms and involve commitments on behalf of both the apprentice and the employer that will make undertaking particularly the day-one employment rights much harder to live with for the small firms involved.

With that, I encourage the Government to look very seriously at this and to consider the possibility of a separate legal employment status for apprenticeships. I will look forward to some sort of positive response from the Minister before I turn into a pumpkin—or wave a white flag, like the noble Lord, Lord Goddard.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, very briefly, I was a bound apprentice for four years, from when I was 17 or 18 on a council estate outside Greater Manchester. Apprenticeships are a little jewel in the employment Bill that have somehow been missed. We need to advocate the opportunities for apprentices and the pride that apprenticeships give to young people, especially NEETs, and there should be no one better to do that than a Labour Government who are trying to generate income, prosperity and jobs. There is a little place there and, with more consultation—I have spoken to Ministers, who are mindful to be supportive of that—if we can get this right for apprentices and take away the obstacles to creating apprenticeships, more people will take them on.

Apprentices tend to stay with a company. If you are an apprentice and you have been trained for three or four years, you will tend to stay with that company and repay the loyalty they have given you in giving you a skill that will carry you through your life. So we support the sentiment and hope that the Government will say some kind words tonight, at least to stop the noble Lord disappearing at midnight and looking for Cinderella’s glass slipper.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, there is really very little to say, but obviously I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich, for bringing forward this very thoughtful and necessary amendment. She is right that apprenticeships represent one of the most important pathways into skilled employment and a vital investment in our nation’s future workforce. I agreed with everything that the noble Baronesses, Lady Wolf and Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said, and I wish the noble Lord well. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, gets the reassurance that she needs and, if she does not, she should probably test the opinion of the House.