Israel and Palestine: West Bank

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think my noble friend is well aware, because I have said it many times in your Lordships’ House, that the British Government regard the settlements policy and the expansion of settlements as illegal. We also deplore the recent tendency, which seems to be going against previous trends, of legalising previously illegal settlement outposts. These are again matters that we raise again and again with our opposite numbers in the Israeli Government. We believe that the policy of settlements is one of the barriers to the higher purpose we all want to achieve of reopening negotiations and getting a long and lasting settlement of the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I am sure that the House will fully understand and sympathise with the difficulty that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has in answering Questions of this sort. It has been the case for many Ministers from both major political parties over the years. Basically, they have to express concern about what is happening, which is the profound and fundamental illegality of one country occupying another country’s land. It seems to everyone who looks closely at these things that all we seem able to do is express our concern and raise the matters with the Israeli authorities. Surely, the question should be: at what point do the Government of Israel face any disadvantage whatever—at the moment, there seems to be none—from continuing with the illegal settlement activities?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful for the sympathy of a former Chief Whip for a Minister when there are two sides to these questions and an element of balance is essential in assessing the realities and prospects. There is more that this country can do and seeks to do, collectively with our allies such as United Nations colleagues, within the EU and bilaterally. We can press on the various points that may yield some progress towards reconciliation and settlement. Israel’s security has to be considered. The noble Lord says that there is nothing to lose but always at the back of people’s minds are questions of Israel’s security. At the same time, these are occupied territories. We want to see an end to that process and a two-state solution that is not undermined by the settlements. These are all aspirations towards which we can and do work, beyond being concerned day-to-day about specific issues such as the one we are discussing now.

European Parliament

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend has a point. The present closed-list system was introduced in 2002; it was the general principle of PR that came in in 1999. My noble friend is right that the closed system gives considerable weight to parties and that a different system might give greater weight to candidates. For the moment there are no plans to make a change, as I indicated. However, the Question makes it clear that issues lie ahead about changes in voting procedures and constitutional reform, and that it might make sense for a future Parliament, or in future in some other way, for these matters to be reopened and considered.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, is not the clear lesson from the experiment in proportional representation that has been used in the European Parliament for the past 15 years that it leads to a lower turnout, far more spoilt ballots and a far weaker connection between the Members of the European Parliament and their constituents? Is it not time that we listened to the people and the overwhelming vote 12 months ago by a majority of two to one in favour of first past the post and against fancy electoral systems, and recognise that the simple change that we should make in Europe is to scrap the existing system and revert to first past the post?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly a viewpoint. My query would be whether it is the system that produces the low turnout or the cause. One could make an argument either way. The noble Lord has his views on matters of voting procedure and no doubt we will have many opportunities in future to debate them.

West Bank and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate speaks with great wisdom. This is obviously the aim; it is certainly the aim of the United Kingdom. We make our contribution through a variety of ways: obviously through the EU and the quartet, bilaterally and in every other way. However, the principles he describes are right and will have to be upheld with great vigour, because clearly there are people operating in the whole turmoil and mélange of the Middle East uprisings who are not so interested in democracy. These people have to be outfaced.

[Lord Grocott]

The Minister said in answer to an earlier Question that our attitude towards any arrangement between Gaza and the West Bank would be whether the Administration could be seen, in deeds and not just in words, committed to a two-state solution. Can he offer any evidence whatever that, on the other side of the equation, the Israeli Government are in any way showing by deeds, not words, their commitment to a two-state solution?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right to point out the need for symmetry. When one sees that illegal settlements continue, there is obviously a danger if not of despair then of recognising that the goal of the two-state solution is not as fully accepted on the Israeli side. We must work to change that. Many people, in Israel and outside, see that a solution lies in this direction for better peace and stability for the people of Israel, for an end to their security problems and, of course, for better peace and stability for the Palestinians.

UNESCO

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that the noble Lord has got that right at all. It is perfectly true that Mr Netanyahu is not, or does not appear to be, a great proponent of negotiations at the present time, but the quartet is proposing some views. We think that there are pressures that can carry negotiation forward and we are not at all convinced that the Palestine statehood idea, if it went to the Security Council and produced the veto and the freezing up of negotiations all round, would be much of an improvement on the situation. I agree with him that it is not good, but it would certainly be very much worse in our view if we followed this course.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, in terms of acts that could be considered to be threatening to any future peace talks, surely there can be no equality between on the one hand the Palestinians wanting full membership of UNESCO, which is a fairly benign movement in its way, and on the other hand a profoundly aggressive movement: the continuing extension of settlements in the Occupied Territories? There really is no equality, surely, between those two acts.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, none whatever. We regard the continued expansion of settlements as illegal, most unwise and highly provocative. That is part of the broad scene, and that must halt as part of the move forward to the negotiation that will bring Palestine to its full and rightful statehood. I agree. I am not quite sure what point the noble Lord is making. There is no comparison at all.

Israel and Palestine: West Bank

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 7th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble and learned friend, as we would expect, is entirely right: this is a central issue. However, confronting it are the apparent religious arguments of the settlers, who insist that they have some sort of historical right to build. Until the matter is resolved along the lines that my noble and learned friend rightly suggests, we will be in difficulties. We continue to press on this issue with the utmost vigour.

[Lord Grocott]

Given the welcome reminder to the House by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, of the commitment of William Hague—and, I am sure, of the noble Lord, Lord Howell—to the importance of human rights and, indeed, universal human rights, is it not almost impossible to imagine a worse violation of one’s human rights than having one’s country illegally occupied for more than 40 years and for that occupation to be not just static but developed all the time through the continuation of illegal settlements? Surely the time has come for more concerted international action to ensure that the human rights of the Palestinians go some way to being properly recognised.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hope very much, as I think must everyone, that that time has come and that some kind of solution can be reached. As I am sure the noble Lord appreciates—it hardly needs saying—the other side of the issue is the security of the people of Israel, who want to live in peace, and that has to be balanced against the need to move on from this ghastly blockade and the difficulty represented by the Occupied Territories. Therefore, there are problems that we cannot wish away but what the noble Lord says is of course the right way forward.

Gaza Flotilla

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, perhaps I may assist the House. I do not think that we have yet heard from a Conservative speaker. I know that my noble friend Lord Cope of Berkeley has been trying to intervene.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sure that the noble Lord is right but, as my right honourable friend pointed out in his Statement, it is precisely the completeness of the blockade in blockading not merely weapons but all other supplies that has given birth to the tunnel arrangements and the kind of black-marketing and control of trade that have poisoned the whole Gaza scene. If the blockade were lifted, the case for the tunnels would disappear.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s clarity and robustness, first, in saying that the inquiry must be seen to be absolutely independent and rigorous and, secondly, in saying that the blockade must be lifted. The Minister said—I am not sure how precisely he intended that the word should be interpreted—that the blockade must be ended by “civilised” means. We all agree with the word “civilised”, but it does not demonstrate the urgency that is needed in the lifting of the blockade, as we remember the unremitting and continuing suffering of innocent people in Gaza, who as recently as 18 months ago lost 400 of their children in a war. The international community must address the lifting of the blockade as a matter of urgency.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree with that and hope that nothing that I said earlier contradicts that view. Israel must urgently find and adopt a better way of limiting any arms and bombs going into Gaza, while at the same time providing for the needs of the people of Gaza, which are desperate and urgent. It is also urgent that the Hamas rocketeers stop firing rockets into Israel. I used the word “civilised” to indicate that, if both sides move away from this violent brutality, we will get urgent progress.