Employment Rights Bill

Lord Hendy Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 5th June 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy]

152: Schedule 4, page 195, line 4, leave out from “matters” to end of line 8 and insert “in relation to school support staff which relate to or are connected with any of those set out in section 178(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to make the Negotiating Body a collective bargaining body rather than a consultative body by leaving it to the industrial parties to determine the matters which require to be collectively bargained (within the statutory definition of collective bargaining in s.178) and so partially fulfils the requirements of the ILO for free and voluntary collective bargaining.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 152 to 179, which are intended not to undermine but to improve the SSSNB.

First, I will say a word about collective bargaining relevant to these amendments and to later amendments dealing with that subject. The term was coined by Beatrice Webb in 1891. It means negotiations between one or several trade unions on the one side and one or more employers or employers’ associations on the other, with a view to agreeing rates of remuneration and other terms and conditions of employment for a defined group of workers. The term is defined in Section 178 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, which sets out various matters which may form the basis of such negotiations—not just pay, terms and conditions, but including dismissals, allocation of work, union facilities, dispute resolution machinery, and so on. The International Labour Organization—ILO—has a similar, but less detailed, definition in Convention 154.

Collective bargaining may be on a sector-wide basis across a particular industry or it may be confined to a particular enterprise. Where there are sectoral agreements setting minimum terms, they are usually improved upon by enterprise agreements with individual employers in the sector. The UK was the first country to establish widespread collective bargaining coverage. By 1948, the then Prime Minister could say in a broadcast to the nation that:

“We have built up in this country a system of collective bargaining without parallel in the world”.


That coverage was built upon two pillars: the statutory wages councils introduced by Winston Churchill in the Trade Boards Act 1909, latterly regulated by the Wages Council Act 1979, and the voluntary joint national councils, or Whitley councils, pursuant to the reports of the Reconstruction Committee after the First World War by JH Whitley. Governments of all persuasions were committed to the promotion of collective bargaining, particularly because of its very positive effect on productivity in both world wars. In consequence, collective agreement coverage of UK workers was in excess of 80% between 1945 and 1980.

Significantly, the proportion of workers covered by only an enterprise-level collective agreement was almost insignificant and had grown to only 9% by the late 1970s. The dismantling of sectoral collective bargaining since 1980 has produced a steady downward curve in the coverage, which was not halted by the introduction of the recognition machinery for enterprise-level bargaining in 2000. The percentage of workers whose terms are negotiated now is likely to be around 25%. The remaining three-quarters must take what they are offered.

The staggering decline from over 80% coverage to 25% has had a devastating effect on workers. The stagnation in the real value of wages and the meteoric rise in zero-hours contracts and job insecurity can be attributed, at least in part, to that dramatic decline. To achieve the growth and improvement in living standards rightly sought by the Government necessitates restoration of extensive collective bargaining coverage.

There are considerable benefits to that. A few years ago, the Supreme Court of Canada pointed out that:

“The right to bargain collectively with an employer enhances the human dignity, liberty and autonomy of workers by giving them the opportunity to influence the establishment of workplace rules and thereby gain some control over a major aspect of their lives, namely their work. Collective bargaining is not simply an instrument for pursuing external ends ... rather [it] is intrinsically valuable as an experience in self-government ... Collective bargaining permits workers to achieve a form of workplace democracy and to ensure the rule of law in the workplace”.


It has also been said that collective bargaining

“is the mode in which employees participate in setting the terms and conditions of employment, rather than simply accepting what their employer chooses to give them”.

Workers enjoy the benefits of increased wages and improved minimum terms and conditions. Trade unions can negotiate on a sector-wide stage without diminishing their ability to negotiate better terms locally.

The benefits of sectoral collective bargaining extend to employers too. Sectoral collective bargaining prevents undercutting and steadies labour costs. Employers in the same sector must compete instead in investment, innovation, efficiency and productivity—the fields of competition which foster growth. Employers, especially SMEs and micro employers, benefit from not having to research or negotiate wages with their workers. Instead, the minimum terms and conditions for their sector are contained in the sectoral agreement.

Employers profit from the increase in consumer demand, consequent on increased earnings generally. Governments enjoy increased tax from higher earnings and the diminished need to fund social security payments to subsidise low wages. Sectoral collective bargaining has proved to reduce inequality, not just between high and low earners but between women and men, and to reduce the pay gap suffered by disabled and ethnic-minority workers.

There is much research from academic institutions to support these conclusions, as well as from the ILO, OECD and IMF. In 2024, the European Union went so far as to adopt a directive requiring member states that have less than an 80% coverage of collective agreements to put in place an action plan to achieve such coverage.

A letter in last week’s Financial Times pointed out that Sweden—notwithstanding its conversion over the last 30 years from neosocialism to neoliberalism—preserved, at the insistence of employers and unions, the very extensive sectoral collective bargaining that characterises Nordic industrial relations.

Collective bargaining, and in particular sectoral collective bargaining, is not just desirable in itself; international law requires the UK to promote and encourage it. That is a subject I will return to in the next group.

It is unclear why the Bill does not stipulate the creation of collective bargaining bodies. The UK’s long and successful experience of statutory wages councils and voluntary joint national councils provides fine precedents. There are many other such precedents as well.

With that introduction, I turn to the proposition that the SSSNB is not the collective bargaining forum it should be, and which many unfamiliar with the detail of the Bill assumed it would be. To save time, I will also refer to the adult social care negotiating body—I wish the Government had chosen easier acronyms—since the Bill’s proposals and the arguments about them are virtually identical.

The relevant features are these. First, the Bill expressly states that nothing in the SSSNB is to be regarded as collective bargaining as defined by Section 178 of 1992 Act, and that any agreements reached are not to be regarded as collective agreements. The ASCNB is slightly different, in that the relevant Minister is given power to exclude the application of Section 178.

Secondly, the Bill defines a negotiating body, but its functions do not include negotiation. The parties have no power to decide for themselves the matters they wish to discuss and are confined to the four subjects permitted to each by the Bill, plus any additions conferred by the Minister. The very limited subjects so far permitted exclude, for example, work organisation, diversity and inclusion, eradication of pay gaps, health and safety, deployment of new technology, formulation of a dispute resolution procedure and the legal status of workers in the sector.

Thirdly, the Bill gives the Minister power to make regulations as to the nature of the consideration the negotiating body must give to the authorised subjects, with power to direct specific factors the body must take into consideration and any conditions that must be met in reaching agreement. Matters can be discussed by the SSSNB only with the permission, or on the direction, of the Minister, who can also specify matters that may not be discussed.

Fourthly, if the body reaches an agreement, the Minister can override it and require reconsideration, specifying factors that must be taken into account and conditions that must be met to reach a reconsidered agreement acceptable to Minister. Ultimately, the Minister can override agreements of the negotiating body.

Fifthly, if the negotiating body fails to agree, the Minister has the power to assume its functions and impose a settlement, regardless of the wishes of the parties, who may, of course, prefer their own dispute resolution procedure, or conciliation, mediation and arbitration by a third party in whom they have confidence.

Sixthly, terms agreed and approved, or simply dictated, by the Secretary of State will be set for all relevant workers. Consequently, any genuine collective agreement for more favourable terms will be void. Far from promoting collective bargaining, the effect of this provision is to preclude it.

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[Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)]

I am desperately searching for the note in my folder on yachts. I may have to write to the noble Baroness on that issue later.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hendy for his introduction to these amendments. As others have said, it was an interesting and important history of the progress that has been made in this country through a recognition of the strength of the collective voice of workers represented through the trade union movement, which is, of course, the basis of our party on this side of the House. Although I will not be able to go as far as my noble friend would want me to go in this, I hope I can reassure him that I think these proposals for the SSSNB make considerable progress in recognising the need for the voice of school support staff to be properly heard in bargaining about pay and conditions and improving the training and development options for those staff.

I know my noble friend Lord Hendy has had the opportunity to meet with my noble friend Lady Jones to talk about these principles. I hope he recognises, as I certainly do, the phenomenal work that she and other members of the team have done in this House in taking forward this piece of important legislation for the Government and the difference it is making to the rights of workers across this country. Those of us on this side of the House are proud of this piece of legislation and the work that has gone into it.

I can also reassure my noble friend that this Government support the work of the ILO, value its role in upholding and enhancing workers’ rights globally and remain committed to upholding international standards. In fact, the UK is in full compliance with all our international obligations on collective bargaining.

I turn to the SSSNB and the associated amendments in this group. I know my noble friend is here for the other elements of negotiating bodies that my noble friend Lord Hendy referenced, but first I shall speak to Amendments 152, 154 to 158, 161 and 173 to 179, which relate to collective bargaining, the role of the Secretary of State and concerns about the remit of the SSSNB.

The existing remit is broad. It covers the areas that will help to address the recruitment and retention challenges that state-funded schools are facing for support staff. As it is a negotiating body, employee and employer representatives will be able to meaningfully negotiate on pay and conditions as well as advise on training and career progression. As I spelt out in the previous group of amendments, this is a major step forward in the process for supporting our school support staff, who play such an important role in our schools.

As it is a statutory body, it is essential that agreements reached by the SSSNB can be imposed in contracts only through ratification by the Secretary of State, and that the interests of the Secretary of State are represented on the body with a non-voting representative. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, that the current wording provides the appropriate specificity on the remit for this body, appropriately involving the Secretary of State in the statutory role of the body but making a major step forward in enabling employees and employer representatives to negotiate on those areas.

I turn to Amendments 153, 159, 160, 162, 167 and 170, which relate to those who work under a contract that is not a contract of employment—in other words, to the remit of the employees covered by this body. The vast majority of school support staff are employed by local authorities, governing bodies and academy trusts as employees. The remit for employees is consistent with the approach taken in the 2009 legislation that first established the SSSNB and the current remit of the NJC. I hope that answers the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, about the definition. We are content that the policy intent of the SSSNB provisions is met through the current remit, so the amendments are not required. They would broaden those under the auspices of the SSSNB in a way that would distort its role and responsibility, and they would introduce the sort of complexity that other noble Lords have talked about.

The remainder of the amendments in this group—Amendments 163 to 166, 168, 169, 171 and 172—relate to the protection of more favourable terms in staff contracts. As drafted, the Bill does not require regulations ratifying agreements of the SSSNB to impose limits on the terms and conditions under which school support staff can be employed. The intention is for support staff in all state-funded schools in England to benefit from a core pay and conditions offer, while providing the flexibility to respond to local circumstances above minimum agreements reached, and with more favourable pay and conditions for individuals protected.

We are taking concerns about the protection of individuals and room for innovation seriously. We will be consulting on the remit of the SSSNB and calling for evidence on terms and conditions in the summer. I therefore have some sympathy with those who might express concerns about whether there is sufficient protection for individuals, and I hope we will be able to clarify that.

I will not be able to go as far as my noble friend Lord Hendy asks the Government to go in his amendments, but I hope he will recognise that, in line with the progress of the collective representation of workers that he identified in his speech, this development under this Government represents a considerable improvement in the position of our vital school support staff. I hope that, on that basis, he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for her fulsome support of the amendments.

I am of course shocked that the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, and I have reached a point of disagreement, and will make one or two points arising from what she said. She thinks that I was wrong to refer to zero-hours contracts. Of course, I accept what she said, that there presently are no zero-hours contracts in the school sector, but, as I am sure she is aware, there are zero-hours contracts in the university sector, and the fear is that they might then be introduced into the school sector.

The noble Baroness was worried about the reference to non-employees—that is, self-employed workers. Again, the problem is not so much the existing situation but fear of the future. The self-employed sector now has 5 million workers, who, on average, earn a lot less than employed workers. It is a growing sector, and the fear is that employers will resort more to the device of self-employment to avoid the consequences of employment.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for his thoughtful contributions. He said that he thought the inclusion of the self-employed would bring ambiguity and be unworkable, but I respectfully disagree. The point is this: if people are doing similar work but with a different legal status, similar terms should apply to them. If there are few people, or none, in that category, I cannot imagine for a moment that the negotiating body, unions or employers will wish to say anything about it. What I am suggesting by enlarging the remit of the bodies is not that they should be compelled to negotiate all the matters under Section 178, but that it is an option open to them if those parties feel that it is profitable for them to negotiate those things.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barran, was uncomfortable with my opposition to the Minister’s power to override agreements, or indeed disagreements, in the negotiating body. I point out that, in truly voluntary and free collective bargaining, it is always possible to have tripartite collective bargaining between the Government, employers and unions—but that is not what this body is. This body is bipartite, but with the addition of third parties and the power in the Minister to override any agreement that is reached. That does not seem to be compatible with proper collective bargaining.

I know your Lordships want to move on, so I will not deal with any more detail, but will make just one more point. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, was against the inclusion of dispute resolution procedures, including arbitration. I make the point again that the purpose is not to impose this on the parties but to enable them to choose their own means of resolving disputes—whether that is conciliation, arbitration or some other means—and not to leave it to the Minister.

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Smith of Malvern for her thoughtful and full response. She is right, of course. I do not think she goes as far as I would like her to, but I understand the reasons she does not. I agree that what is proposed in the Bill for the SSSNB is a “considerable improvement”, to use her words, on what exists. I accept too that it is a step on the road to proper collective bargaining in due course. I am very grateful for the two meetings I had with my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch. I was honoured and grateful to be allowed to spend time discussing my concerns with her. On that basis, I am very happy to withdraw my amendment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Can I seek a point of clarification on the noble Lord’s clarification, which I am very grateful for? Was his argument that extending and future-proofing—I think those were his words—this for the self-employed is because he feels that there will be more self-employed people as a consequence of this Bill?

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

No, not at all. Growing self-employment has been a trend for the last 20 years, which has perhaps accelerated a bit in the last 10 years. The worry is that school employers may adopt the device of allocating work to the self-employed, rather than to employed persons. If that is the case, there ought to be room for the negotiating body to deal with that issue and the consequences of it. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 152 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Hendy]

181: Clause 37, page 62, line 3, leave out from “Body” to end of line 4 and insert “to be selected by agreement between the union officials and employers’ representatives who are members of the Negotiating Body and, in the event of a failure to agree, chosen by ACAS;”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is one of several intended to make the Negotiating Body a bilateral collective bargaining body, in this instance to allow the industrial parties to select the Chair instead of it being a ministerial choice.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

I apologise to noble Lords for inflicting my voice on them again. The amendments in this group are intended to convert the ASCNB into a collective bargaining forum and achieve the purpose we have already discussed for the SSSNB.

I mentioned earlier that there is some relevant international law. I propose now to deal with it. The UK is bound by the international treaty provisions it has ratified. That applies no matter the subject matter of the treaty obligation—whether it be trade, security, environment, labour, extradition or whatever. The obligation of conformity is not confined to the black letter of the treaty provision. It applies also to the decisions of the bodies on which the treaty has constitutionally bestowed the power of deciding whether or not a state is in compliance. If a state does not like the treaty provisions or decisions made under it, it has the right to denounce the treaty and cease to be bound by it.

The great jurist Lord Bingham made state compliance with international obligations his eighth principle of the rule of law. He said in his seminal book on the subject that

“the rule of law requires compliance by the state with its obligations in international law as in national law”.

Consistently with this, the current Ministerial Code binding on British Ministers places on them an

“overarching duty to comply with the law, including international law and treaty obligations”.

The point was reinforced by the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General in this House on 26 November 2024, when he said of compliance with international law:

“We should all be immensely proud of it, and this Government will seek at every turn to comply with our obligations”.—[Official Report, 26/11/24; col. 680.]


He developed the point in a lecture to the Royal United Services Institute last week.

The relevant international law is based on two legal instruments. The first is the ILO, which since its founding in 1919 has acknowledged collective bargaining as an instrument of social justice. The 1944 ILO Declaration of Philadelphia, part of the ILO constitution, recognises the obligation to further

“the effective recognition of the right of collective bargaining”.

The 1998 ILO Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work reiterates that

“all Members … have an obligation … from the very fact of membership in the Organization, to respect, to promote and to realize … the principles concerning the fundamental rights”,

which include the effective recognition of the right to collective bargaining.

ILO Convention 98, Right to Organise and Collective Bargaining Convention, 1949, was ratified by the United Kingdom almost 75 years ago on 20 June 1950. It is one of the fundamental conventions, binding, regardless of ratification, as a consequence of membership of the ILO. Article 4 imposes the following obligation on states:

“Measures appropriate to national conditions shall be taken, where necessary, to encourage and promote the full development and utilisation of machinery for voluntary negotiation between employers or employers’ organisations and workers’ organisations, with a view to the regulation of terms and conditions of employment by means of collective agreements”.


The Government were recently reminded of that obligation by the decision earlier this year of the ILO tripartite Committee on Freedom of Association, on which the UK is represented, on a complaint against the UK arising out of the Supreme Court judgment in the case of Deliveroo in 2023. The committee had previously stated in the case of the United Kingdom that

“whereas governments are not under a duty to enforce collective bargaining by compulsory means, they are under a duty to encourage and promote voluntary collective bargaining in good faith between the parties”.

The Bill is the opportunity to fulfil that obligation. As yet, it does not.

Turning from the global to the European, I refer to the European Social Charter of 1961. Article 6, headed “The Right to Bargain Collectively”, materially provides:

“With a view to ensuring the effective exercise of the right to bargain collectively, the Parties undertake … to promote, where necessary and appropriate, machinery for voluntary negotiations between employers or employers’ organisations and workers’ organisations, with a view to the regulation of terms and conditions of employment by means of collective agreements”.


The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, on which a number of your Lordships sit, elects a supervisory body of jurists called the European Committee of Social Rights, which regularly includes eminent UK nominees, with the purpose of examining compliance by member states with the provisions of the charter which they have voluntarily ratified. Decisions of that committee are reported to the Committee of Ministers, which includes the UK Foreign Secretary.

The European Committee of Social Rights has held of the obligation of states under Article 6.2 of the charter that

“if the spontaneous development of collective bargaining is not sufficient, positive measures should be taken to facilitate and encourage the conclusion of collective agreements”

and that

“where only 30% of the total number of employees are covered by collective agreements, voluntary negotiations are not sufficiently promoted in practice”.

The level of collective bargaining coverage in the UK is now significantly below 30% but, in any event, it is clear that spontaneous development of collective bargaining is not occurring in fields that desperately need it, such as social care. The duty on the UK to promote collective bargaining, at least in these sectors, is thus triggered. The committee has also held:

“States Parties should not interfere in the freedom of trade unions to decide themselves which industrial relationships they wish to regulate in collective agreements”.


That is a matter to which the ILO Committee on Freedom of Association has also turned:

“It is for the parties concerned to decide on the subjects for negotiation … Matters which might be subject to collective bargaining include the type of agreement to be offered to employees or the type of industrial instrument to be negotiated in the future, as well as wages, benefits and allowances, working time, annual leave, selection criteria in case of redundancy, the coverage of the collective agreement, the granting of trade union facilities, including access to the workplace beyond what is provided for in legislation etc.; these matters should not be excluded from the scope of collective bargaining by law”.


Yet in the subsectors of adult social care and school support staff, this Bill proposes to violate than principle. The subject matter which the two negotiating bodies are permitted to discuss is limited to that specified in the Bill, to which the Minister may unilaterally add. Indeed, as we have already discussed in relation to school support staff, their negotiating body is not permitted to discuss even the matters within its statutory remit, unless directed or expressly permitted by the Minister.

Both the social rights committee and the ILO have made it clear that self-employed workers should not be excluded from collective bargaining machinery, a matter which we discussed earlier.

I also draw attention to Article 6.3 of the charter, which I did not mention earlier. It requires that

“conciliation, mediation and/or arbitration procedures must be introduced to facilitate the settlement of labour disputes”.

The European Social Rights Committee has held that

“recourse to arbitration should be voluntary (subject to the agreement of the parties) … All arbitration systems must be independent, and the outcome of arbitration may not be predetermined by pre-established criteria. Any form of compulsory recourse to arbitration is a violation of this provision”.

Yet, under this Bill, the remit open to negotiating bodies does not permit them to agree any kind of dispute resolution procedure. Quite the contrary: as we have seen, the Minister has power to override both the agreement of the industrial parties or their disagreement, and to impose an outcome on them—in my view, a wholly impermissible form of compulsory arbitration.

There is no disputing that the UK permits collective bargaining. However, the duty on states ratifying this provision of the charter, as the UK did on 11 July 1962, is not merely to permit; the duty is to promote collective bargaining machinery. It is true that we have legal recognition machinery in the 1992 Act, Schedule A1. However, there is no mechanism in UK law to establish or support sectoral collective bargaining. This Bill is the opportunity to establish that in the many sectors crying out for it, including social care.

I turn to my amendments in this group. Amendment 181 would allow unions and employers to choose their own chair. Amendment 182 would restrict membership to persons nominated by unions and employers. Amendment 183 would restrict third parties to those agreed by unions and employers, and to ensure that they will be in a minority. Amendment 184 would allow discussion of Section 178 matters. Amendment 186 would add training and career progression dispute resolution machinery, discipline and grievance procedures, and anything else the unions and employers want to discuss, to the list of permitted topics. Amendment 187 would broaden the definition of social care worker to that in Section 20 (3) of the Courts and Criminal Justice Act 2015.

Amendment 191 would substitute, where there is failure to agree, a dispute resolution machinery in place of the unilateral power of the Minister to substitute his decision. Amendments 193, 194, 198 and 199 mirror Amendment 192 from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, making the output of the process a minimum floor permitting subsequent or indeed prior agreements for more beneficial terms. Amendment 197 would bring in the self-employed, so the arguments are much the same as we have already covered.

As your Lordships will have noted, I also seek to oppose Clause 51 standing part. It gives power to permit the Minister to disapply Section 178 to the adult social care body. I will not repeat the arguments. I beg to move.

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Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that he felt that the remit of the negotiating body was not appropriate for the social care sector, as a one-size-fits-all approach will not work. The remit, as I have said, is stated in the Bill: pay, terms and conditions and other matters. Our discussions with stakeholders will enable us to get it to the right place. I emphasise again that we should welcome this as a novel and direct approach to improving the pay, conditions and status of care workers, which is something we all want to do. I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment and I maintain that Clause 51 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank everybody who has participated in this debate. In particular, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Ritchie, for their Amendment 185. I completely support the idea that training and education should be part of the remit of the adult social care negotiating body. As the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, touched on, training and career progression are expressly part of the remit of school support staff and it seems inexplicable that they are not part of adult social care as well.

I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Prentis, that the adult social care negotiating body, in establishing minimum terms and conditions, will play a key part in the improvement of the provision of social care and of course the improvement of the lives of those who provide that care. I was moved by the fact-filled description by my noble friend Lord Prentis of the need for the adult social care negotiating body in that sector.

I realised the other day that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and I have known each other a lot longer than I remembered. He mentioned going to the retirement dinner of Albert Blighton, formerly legal officer of the Transport and General Workers Union, and I was there too, but I had forgotten. Of course, I do not agree with much of what the noble Lord has said today.

As for the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and a certificate in relation to the European Human Rights Convention, I have not argued that there was any incompatibility with that convention. My arguments were about incompatibility with ILO provision and the European Social Charter—two very different things. States cannot pick and choose which of the obligations binding on them they wish to abide by.

With the greatest of respect to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I think he misunderstands the nature of collective bargaining—not that I have done much of it myself, but I have been present when it happens and have had a lot to do with its consequences. It is not necessarily a confrontational process; it works collaboratively. That is why it has been so successful for decades—indeed, centuries—now. I was not suggesting—and do not think it ever is—that it is a legalistic process; it is an informal process.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also perhaps misunderstood what I was saying. I was suggesting not a dominant role for trade unions but a balanced role, where trade unions and employers have equal power. It is in their mutual interests to agree future terms and conditions and so on. I say to the noble Lord, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, that I am not suggesting that the subject matter for negotiation should be confined to Section 178 matters, but simply that those should be permissible matters for discussion, and that parties should be allowed to resolve whatever differences may occur between them by negotiation or by a dispute resolution mechanism chosen by them.

In relation to non-employment, or the use of my word “engagement” rather than “employment”, the purpose of that is to ensure that self-employed workers in the adult social care sector are covered by the benefits of whatever negotiations emanate from the social care negotiating body. Why not? Why should they not have the benefit of minimum hours, terms and conditions, and so on? In this sector, there are a lot of self-employed workers, because employers have resorted to that device.

I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for her full response. I disagreed with one or two points that she made. I do not think it is right to say that Section 178 of the Act is confined to local agreements; that provision in the legislation, of very long standing, applies to all collective bargaining, sectoral or local. I noted that she did not say anything about the international law obligations on which my speech centred. Nevertheless, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 181 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Hendy]

203: After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause—
“Sectoral collective bargaining(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations for the establishment of Statutory Joint Industrial Councils.(2) The regulations shall provide that—(a) a Statutory Joint Industrial Council shall be composed of equal numbers of—(i) nominees of employers’ associations (or nominees of employers) which appear to ACAS to represent employers in the sector, and(ii) nominees of independent trade unions which appear to ACAS to represent workers in the sector,(b) a Statutory Joint Industrial Council shall have the function of conducting collective bargaining to—(i) establish levels and rates of remuneration (including pensions), terms, conditions and other benefits for those who work in the particular sector of the economy;(ii) determine any other matter within the scope of section 178(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (collective agreements and collective bargaining);(iii) formulate its constitution and procedural arrangements including a dispute resolution procedure; (iv) resolve any other matter which the Statutory Joint Industrial Council desires to consider,(c) any agreements reached by a Statutory Joint Industrial Council shall apply to the workers and employers in the relevant sector save to the extent that a previous or a subsequent contract or collective agreement makes more favourable provision,(d) it is for the Secretary of State (in the light of advice from ACAS) to determine what constitutes a sector of the economy for the purposes of establishing a Statutory Joint Industrial Council, and(e) a Statutory Joint Industrial Council may only be made following consultation with—(i) nominees of employers’ associations (and/or nominees of employers) which appear to ACAS to represent employers in the sector, and(ii) nominees of independent trade unions which appear to ACAS to represent workers in the sector.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to enable regulations to be laid for sectoral collective bargaining in particular sectors of the economy. The concept of the Statutory Joint Industrial Council is taken from s.90 and Schedule 8, Employment Protection Act 1975, reproduced in Part II of the Wages Councils Act 1979.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for supporting my Amendment 203. It is designed to give the Secretary of State power to establish, after consultation, a national statutory joint industrial council in any sector of the economy which appears to him appropriate. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked me to give her apologies to the Committee for having had to leave.

Amendment 203 is not intended to be mandatory; it is purely discretionary, leaving it up to the Secretary of State as to whether or not he or she wishes to institute a statutory joint council. The negotiating bodies that we have already discussed this afternoon are, without doubt, an improvement on the current situation, especially in light of my noble friend Lord Prentis’s earlier speech on adult social care.

In these circumstances, I regret that I take the role of Oliver Twist and ask for more. But the fact is that many sectors are crying out for sectoral minimum terms set by negotiation—social care and not just for adults, agriculture in England, hospitality, office cleaning, food delivery, parcel delivery, warehousing, garment manufacture, seafaring, bus services, and so on. There are other groups, such as teachers, where there is established collective bargaining across the sector but not on pay. The omission from the Bill of a power to establish sectoral collective bargaining in any sector seems inexplicable.

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[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, in particular my noble friends Lord Barber, Lady O’Grady and Lord Monks for their Amendment 322, which I support. I support any machinery for extending the hearing of the worker’s voice. My preference would be for collective bargaining rather the negotiating body model in the Bill, but if we cannot have the first, let us have the second.

I had the pleasure of spending time with the JIB, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Barber. It is a good example of successful sectoral collective bargaining. Earlier this afternoon, I tried to outline the benefits of collective bargaining. No one in the House has so far denied those benefits; indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, described the disbenefits of not having collective bargaining, which are, I think, acknowledged by my noble friend the Minister. Instead, the defence is that collective bargaining is unworkable or too burdensome. However, the JIB and other extant joint national councils of a voluntary nature, as well as the Whitley councils in the public sector, show that they are not unworkable or burdensome and that sectoral collective bargaining works.

I make two points to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. First, collective bargaining, even at the enterprise level, benefits non-unionists as well as unionists. Collective bargaining may be reached between a trade union representing only a proportion of the workers in a bargaining unit, but the output covers all workers in the bargaining unit. Secondly—this is a point that I need to make in relation to the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe—collective bargaining has been proven not to create unemployment; academic studies and, indeed, studies by the OECD have demonstrated that. In response to the noble Lord, I make the point, in terms of the EU comparison, that unemployment differs from one European country to another. However, one thing is absolutely clear: unemployment in European countries is not caused or related to the extent of collective bargaining coverage.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, asked about the non-membership of trade unions. Tangentially to that, I will make one point: one of the reasons for falling membership of trade unions in this country—and, indeed, in other countries—is the decline in collective bargaining. People will not join trade unions when they know that the trade union will not have a voice in setting their terms and conditions. They would be paying a contribution as just a gesture, without any hope of getting anything back.

I will not deal with all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, but there was one point about the definition of sectors. That has always been problematic, but it has always been resolved. For decades, there have been arguments about the definition of sectors for the purposes of wage councils and joint national councils, but, ultimately, they were all resolved.

In response to my noble friend the Minister, I want to pick up one small point in relation to the proposal that ACAS should have restored to it the duty to promote collective bargaining. ACAS had that duty for decades, and it did not mean that ACAS was partisan in any way. ACAS has always been respected as impartial and independent; having that duty again, in my respectful opinion, would not open it to that sort of criticism.

I recognise, as my noble friend the Minister asked me to, that what is proposed in this Bill is a major step forward. There can be no doubt about that. I acknowledge her commitment to go further; she knows that I would of course prefer to go further now, but I respect her commitment to support sectoral collective bargaining. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 203 withdrawn.

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My noble friend’s amendment does not seek to prejudice outcomes or impose immediate regulatory burdens; rather, it calls for a measured review to examine whether the law as it stands adequately reflects the realities of digital casting platforms and whether performers are appropriately protected in this rapidly evolving environment. I therefore hope that the Government will look favourably on this modest and proportionate proposal. Such a review could, in time, help to ensure that this vital part of our creative economy operates with the clarity, fairness and legal certainty that all participants, performers, casting professionals and platform operators deserve and require.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, have said everything that I wanted to say. I just want to add that it has been a pleasure working with them and with my noble friend Lady McIntosh to endeavour to understand the nature of this dispute. It occurs to me, in the light of what we have been discussing this afternoon, that a good dose of collective bargaining and negotiation might come to the assistance of the parties.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not expected to speak at any point during this Bill, and I will do so now only very briefly to express my thanks to the noble Earl and his colleagues for praying my name in aid in relation to this amendment. I really just want to say that I may be the only person in the House—and I am certainly, I think, the only person in this Chamber—for whom a casting directory was the bible of my life for many decades. Therefore, I know exactly how important it is to performers that there should be a trusted published work of some kind to which they can refer their information which can then be the source of potential employment through the work of casting directors and other industry professionals.

I just say to the Minister, when she comes to consider this amendment—which, by the way, I do support, and I have nothing to add or anything I wish to contradict in what has been said so far—that it is important to recognise that this is an extremely delicate ecosystem in which there are many, many people who need to avail themselves, and have done over decades, as we have been told, of the kind of service that a casting director and a casting directory provide. Frankly, for most of all of our lives, it has been Spotlight, but it could be others. The people who need to avail themselves of that service are many in number, and the people who need to use it in order to find out about those people are much fewer in number—mostly casting directors. It is very important that they have a trusted source, that performers can rely on their information being carefully curated, looked after and protected in the way that the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, have already outlined, but that we do not disturb the particular delicate relationship between those two aspects of the way that the business works. While I am not in favour of exceptionalism on the whole, I think we do have to understand that this industry operates not always perfectly but certainly in an unusual kind of way, and it is necessary that it continue to do so with the right protections in place.

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[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to my Amendments 212 and 213. Naturally, I wholeheartedly agree with the excellent points made from our Front Bench by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, particularly on Amendments 210 and 213B.

My two amendments are probing amendments, essentially, and I think they are very sensible and reasonable. The perhaps slightly more contentious one would restrict these powers to businesses with over 250 employees. I cannot and will not rehearse the arguments my noble friend made about disruption, interference and taking resources and time away from the main job of work in the business. Interestingly, it could be “one or more” trade union officials, so it could be one but it could be 25 going into a small business. We do not know because the clause is drawn very widely and is very permissive. That is Amendment 213.

Amendment 212 is basic good manners and common sense. If you want to facilitate a good relationship between the trade union representatives—properly elected and appointed by the workforce—and the employers, you want an agenda and an objective place that you wish to reach. That might be to avoid industrial action, to look again at a pay offer, to discuss a suspension of a worker or something like that. But what is wrong with giving 24 hours’ notice? It takes the heat out of the potentially disputatious nature of the relationship that you might have between the employer and the trade union representative. I think it is just basic good manners and would make things work better. It does not diminish the role of the trade unionists and it does not undermine their integrity or their bona fides; it just says, “Let’s give 24 hours’ notice to enable a more fruitful and productive relationship to be expedited between the two sides”. For those reasons, I would like the Minister to at least consider the amendments, perhaps with a view to looking at them again on Report.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendment 214 is designed to provide an effective remedy against an employer which defies an order of the CAC to provide trade union access. This is a situation where the trade union has applied to the employer for an agreement for access and been refused. The trade union has then gone to the CAC and succeeded in obtaining an order for access, which the employer has defied. The employer has had the opportunity to appeal to the EAT and has either declined to appeal or has had its appeal refused. In that situation, the Bill merely provides that a union can apply for a fine to be paid, not to it but to the CAC. That is no real deterrent and no incentive either for the union to enforce the CAC award, knowing that it will not result in compulsion for the employer to obey the order of the CAC. My amendment provides enforcement by way of a High Court injunction. That is an established procedure often used against trade unions for breach of their obligations in relation to industrial action. Some equivalence is surely justified here.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I support Amendments 212 and 213 in this group tabled by my noble friend Lord Jackson. I agree that a 24-hour notice period is necessary, particularly for small businesses, because access to the workplace by third parties can be disruptive. Visitors calling unannounced can disrupt a carefully organised schedule between an employer and his or her employees. The 24-hour notice period would allow employers to prepare for a visit and to reschedule certain tasks. I support exempting smaller businesses from some of these arrangements, because it is very hard to organise smaller businesses with third-party interruptions.