Electricity Capacity (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

I understand entirely the argument that a number of years are required for physical capacity to build what was originally the coalition Government’s hope that gas would come online. But what I do not understand is this: by having that exclusively for supply side, a whole area of the capacity market is denied by demand response. By the time you come around to the short-term one-year deals, where demand response can come in, you have already filled a major proportion of the capacity market. It therefore discriminates against that sector—or do I completely misunderstand this?

[Lord Henley]

I might have to write in greater detail, but both T-1 and T-4—the short term and longer term—deal with the point about discrimination. I might be wrong, but I will think about that and come back to the noble Lord.

Carbon Budgets

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not accept the noble Baroness’s premise that we are cheating; we are following international rules on this matter. If we wanted to change in the manner that she suggests, which might be a way ahead, it would be worth doing only if we had international agreement from all sides.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, in its report at the beginning of May the Committee on Climate Change made it clear that we had to “ramp up” our efforts in saving and getting carbon out of our economy quite substantially. It particularly criticised the Government’s target of ceasing the sales of diesel and petrol vehicles in 2040. Should we not get real here and say that if we are to meet our targets that date has to be brought forward, as many other nations have done, to 2030?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have ramped up what we are doing; that is why, last week, we brought forward the order that moved us to a legally binding target of net zero by 2050, in line with the advice from the climate change committee. The committee made no suggestion that we should get rid of petrol and diesel cars by 2040, a very substantial change which would cause major problems for the whole automotive industry. I believe that the target we have set is about right.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I suspect it is a benefit of which a large number of Members of this House are in receipt—I see one or two indicating that they are not. I note what my noble friend said. It is a very good suggestion, and I will ensure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor is made aware of it.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right to mention the private rented sector. One year ago, the minimum energy efficiency standards regulations came into force, which meant that properties could not be rented unless their EPC was E or above. However, properties are still being advertised that do not meet that criterion. What are the Government doing to ensure that local authorities apply those regulations and fuel poverty is reduced in that sector?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is right: it is for local authorities to do that, but he will also remember that we brought forward further regulations this year, which he and I debated in this House, whereby we increased the obligation on landlords in how much they should be expected to spend to raise houses in the private rented sector to, I think, at least band E. I forget the precise level that they have to be at.

Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products and Energy Information (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

While we believe, as we have said on many occasions, that a deal with the EU is in our mutual interest, it would be irresponsible at this stage not to make appropriate plans for a no deal situation. This draft instrument ensures that in such a scenario our ecodesign and energy labelling legislation will continue to function effectively. It provides business and the public with the certainty they need.

Before I talk specifically about this instrument, it may be helpful if I speak briefly about the current EU framework for ecodesign and energy labelling. In recent years, the EU has introduced a suite of product-specific regulations through the ecodesign directive and the energy labelling regulations framework. The EU ecodesign regulations are about minimising the costs and environmental impact of products used in both homes and businesses by setting minimum performance requirements. Energy labelling regulations are about empowering consumers to make informed purchasing decisions through energy labels.

Both ecodesign and energy labelling regulations agreed to date will save household consumers around £100 on their annual energy bills in 2020, and, just as importantly, lead to greenhouse gas emissions savings of 8 million tonnes of CO₂ in 2020. As well as bolstering our commitment to reduce carbon emissions, the policy also serves a purpose for industry. Setting minimum performance requirements can help to drive innovation and increase the competitiveness of businesses, in line with our industrial strategy.

This brings me on to the instrument being debated today. Using the power in the withdrawal Act, this instrument amends EU retained law to ensure that the ecodesign and energy labelling regime remains operable in the event of a no-deal outcome.

I will turn now to the amendments. The instrument replaces references to the “Union market” with the “UK market”, so that ecodesign and labelling requirements continue to apply to the UK market after exit. This amendment is essential so as to prevent less efficient and more polluting products being placed on the UK market. It also gives the Secretary of State the power, currently held by the Commission, to lay ecodesign and energy labelling product-specific regulations. As set out in the Clean Growth Strategy, this power will be exercised to,

“keep step with equivalent standards wherever possible and appropriate, or even exceed them where it is in the UK’s interest to do so”.

The instrument removes the requirement for suppliers placing products on the UK market to enter product information into the EU product database, a new EU online portal, live since January, where market surveillance authorities—the Office for Product Safety and Standards for the UK—can view information uploaded by suppliers. Instead, the market surveillance authority will be able to request technical product information, as it does now, directly from suppliers.

The next three amendments relate to changes the Government are making to the trading of goods subject to EU-wide product-specific rules. They are not specific to this instrument. One of these changes pertains to the conformity assessment of goods to ensure they meet relevant requirements. After exit, products needing to be assessed by a third party in order to show compliance with UK legal requirements will be assessed by UK “approved bodies”. This replaces the pre-exit requirement to use an EU “notified body”. To minimise disruption, however, businesses will for a time-limited period be able to continue using EU notified bodies when selling their goods to the UK after exit.

After exit, a new UK marking will need to be affixed to products for the UK market to indicate conformity with UK requirements. This will replace the CE marking which indicates conformity with EU requirements. To ensure continuity, most manufacturers will still be able to use the CE marking for the UK market. This is intended to be for a time-limited period.

The last of these changes relates to testing standards used for the verification of compliance of products with legal requirements. The current list of EU “harmonised standards” will be carried across but renamed for the UK as “designated standards”.

Finally, this instrument makes minor changes to ensure market surveillance can carry out its enforcement activities with regards to the labelling of household lamps and electric ovens. These are routine changes not related to exit.

In conclusion, these regulations are an appropriate and necessary use of the powers of the withdrawal Act and will maximise continuity in our ecodesign and energy labelling regulations as we leave the EU. I commend the regulations to the Committee and I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I will be more positive about these regulations and make the Minister feel better. I very much welcome the tone of the Explanatory Memorandum and its emphasis on the benefits of energy efficiency, which is clearly one of the least costly and most effective ways to reduce our carbon footprint. In fact, energy efficiency is one of the reasons why although energy prices have gone up, energy bills for households have gone down. This time, the irony is on not the Government but the broader British media because the famous Brussels-regulations-related vacuum cleaner efficiency scandal foisted on British citizens by the tabloids will remain. I welcome those product standards coming across.

My question are quite practical. I think that the Minister went through this, but who will police or register this matter and what will the additional cost of that be? Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, who will hold the register? Is the IT for that complete? How will what is on the European Union register get on to the UK register? That covers a series of intellectual property rights issues. We came across this with the REACH chemicals database: you cannot just copy this information across. How can we have a robust system that works in this regard? Without that, this scheme cannot work.

I understand the Minister’s point about continuing labels for a while but, more importantly, will it be legal to sell all the electric appliances covered by this SI in our home market from the point of our departure? I want to understand whether the preparation in those technical areas is right and things will work. Legislation is great but if it cannot work, even passing these regulations is not a lot of use.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for ending on a positive note. I think I can say—I will write to him if I am wrong—that any further SIs will be affirmative. It is important to make a distinction between affirmative and negative orders. The noble Lord will know that, whenever legislation goes through, Governments of whatever political persuasion are often tempted to make some small concessions by offering to turn a negative order into an affirmative one. Oppositions often push for this, thinking that they have achieved some great victory. I have certainly done it in opposition. We then very often burden both Houses with some unnecessary affirmative orders. In the past, I can think of a large number of affirmative paralytic shellfish orders that kept littering the Order Paper. I cannot remember what they were about, but they would probably have been far better left as negative. I can see a Minister at some point making some generous gesture in the course of the Committee on a Bill to suit some Opposition of whatever colour. As far as I know, the orders will be affirmative. If, inappropriately, we try to make them negative, I am sure that the appropriate committees, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, and others, will correct us.

I briefly—but not completely—apologise for the size of the regulations. Rather rashly, I am tempted to say, “You ain’t seen nothing yet”. Speaking more honestly and frankly, very often, it makes life more convenient for the users if we put everything into one instrument. We get a better end product. The noble Lord is exactly correct in saying that this one is 81 pages long. There are a further few pages of the Explanatory Memorandum. To have to repeat this debate five times with five instruments—five into 80—might be a less satisfactory process. So I do not really apologise; I think this is the appropriate way of getting these things done.

I say the same to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who at least welcomed the tone of the Explanatory Memorandum. He told us just how much actions of this sort—even with rising electricity costs—could reduce one’s electricity bills.

I suggest another mechanism: to get one’s children out of the house, which happens when they get to a certain age. The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, shakes his head, but I think the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, knows exactly what I am talking about.

[Lord Teverson]

I agree, in that my wife’s 40 year-old daughter has just left the house to move elsewhere, so that is a very appropriate comment and I look forward to the reduction in my electricity bill.

[Lord Henley]

I was not thinking of those who had reached the maturity of 40; I was thinking of the somewhat younger ones who, despite their extraordinarily green credentials, take a slightly less purist approach to turning off lights and other procedure.

I shall deal quickly with some of the questions. On the impact assessment, I assure the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, that the instrument’s impact was assessed at below the annual cost of £5 million, which was why a full impact assessment was not required, but a de minimis impact analysis was undertaken to reach this conclusion and, in doing so, the department followed the guidance, so we are happy about that.

On consultation, I assure both noble Lords that we worked very closely with the industry and other organisations, meeting them and keeping them up-to-date via email. Last summer, officials met all the appropriate trade bodies to consult them. Views were sought on the proposal to keep the design of the energy label, remove obligations in relation to the EU product database and retain the legislative functions carried out by the Commission for the Secretary of State. In the main, as far as I know, the trade bodies supported all those proposals and stressed the importance of not imposing new costs on businesses and the UK being able to legislate after exit.

I shall deal with some of the more detailed points. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the policing of this. Ecodesign enforcement and control activities are carried out by the Office for Product Safety and Standards. Energy labelling enforcement and control activities are carried out by that office and local authorities’ trading standards departments in Great Britain and by the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland. The regulations will not result in any change in that policy.

The noble Lord also asked who holds the products register and whether there is one for the UK. There is no UK database, but there is an EU-wide database, which went live on 1 January this year. There have been delays on the public section of that database, but it remains broadly on track and, after exit, we will review whether to introduce a UK database. Again, I can give the assurance that we will consult on that. He also asked whether all appliances under the SI will be covered from the point of exit, and I can assure him that the changes come into force from exit day and there will be no gaps.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, was concerned that there could be a reduction in standards, but I can assure him that we continue to support all these policy measures, which cut energy bills and increase energy security. As stated in the Clean Growth Strategy, we will keep step with equivalent standards, but intend to go further where, as I think I said in my opening remarks, we believe that is in the interests of the UK.

I have dealt with the noble Lord’s concerns about consultation, but I just correct myself on the affirmative nature of SIs. Only the SIs that are not identical to EU standards will be affirmative. If they are not identical to EU standards, they will be negative. I think I have it the right way round.

Nuclear Energy

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, there was an awful lot to answer in the noble Lord’s question, but I think he is right to emphasise the importance of nuclear. It provides some 20% of our electricity requirements, and obviously in a low-carbon manner. We are also looking for cost reductions in new-build projects and I am glad that the noble Lord emphasised that. In our nuclear sector deal we are looking for cost reductions of some 30% over the next 15 years or so, as well as cost reductions in other areas. He is also right to emphasise the role that wind can play and the fact that the cost of wind is coming down.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I welcome very much the Government being far more questioning about Chinese investment in critical infrastructure in this country, such as 5G telecoms, which is being rolled out. Will they extend that questioning to our critical nuclear infrastructure, not least Bradwell, which is a Chinese-designed system?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we will continue to work with CGN on Bradwell, as they have committed to do, and we hope that Bradwell B will become available in due course.

Carbon Emission Reduction Targets

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not agree with my noble friend. I believe that there is a very strong case for encouraging shale gas extraction not only in terms of energy security but also in terms of reducing our carbon emissions. It will lead to less use of other, more harmful sources of energy. It can play a role in both reducing carbon and increasing our energy security.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I was delighted to learn that the Government have carbon targets for their whole estate under their Greening Government Commitments. Does the Minister agree that, given his welcome for this scheme, Secretaries of State should have their pay varied according to their performance against those greening commitments?

[Lord Henley]

I do not have absolutely at my fingertips how well each department across the government estate is doing in terms of the Greening Government Commitments, but I can assure the noble Lord that this has been going on through Governments for many years; I remember it happening as long ago as in the 1990s. The Government are moving in that direction. Whether the pay of Secretaries of State should be involved in this is a matter beyond my pay grade.

Smart Meters

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am aware of that report but, as I made clear in my original Answer, we are installing more than 400,000 meters every month and that figure is increasing. We are still confident that we will be able to ensure that by the end of 2020 every household in the country will have been offered a meter. That is the aim that we have set out. We are also still confident that we expect to see a net benefit of around £5.7 billion for the entire rollout—benefits for individual consumers as they get greater choice and the advantage of being able to monitor their electricity and therefore keep their bills down, and advantages to the companies themselves.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps it is worth reminding the House that this programme of smart meter implementation will cost the country £11 billion. Sure, we need the customer benefits in savings from that but we also need to use them to create a properly distributed energy system in this country. Can the Minister explain to me how SMETS meters will achieve that?

[Lord Henley]

SMETS meters will allow the consumers greater benefits in that it will be easier for them to switch supplier and to monitor their use. Therefore it will be easier for them to cut their consumption of electricity and we will see a reduction in energy use, with benefits to the consumer in the cost, and benefits to the country in lower carbon use. As I said, there will be a net benefit overall after that cost of some £5.7 billion.

Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 30th October 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I welcome the generally positive tone of the noble Lord and my noble friend Lady McIntosh, both of whom recognised that this order is a genuine reform of the ECO system. As I made clear in my opening remarks, it is designed to target it far better at those who are less well off and those who find it harder to adapt their houses to make them more energy efficient. It has achieved a great deal in the past and will continue to achieve a great deal.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, takes a less positive approach to this and accused us of a lack of ambition, given that I talked about increasing very dramatically the number of people that we intend to try to reach, and recommended generally spending more taxpayers’ money in a rather haphazard manner. I point out to him and to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that technology will encourage those who can afford it to make changes that will lead to a reduction in the use of energy. One only has to look at, for example, the reduction in the cost of things such as LED lights over the past few years, which has made it far easier for people to change to those lights and therefore decrease their use of energy. Similarly, it is right that those who can afford it should pay for appropriate insulation as is necessary, as they will see the benefit in a reduction in their fuel bills and the country and society as a whole will see a benefit in the reduction in carbon use. These measures are designed to encourage those who find it less easy to afford to make those changes.

[Lord Teverson]

As the Minister knows, in the UK, particularly in commercial buildings and increasingly in private buildings, we have a problem that landlords and tenants have very different goals in this area, so unfortunately it does not always work out that way. However, I do not want to interrupt him further.

[Lord Henley]

I totally agree that landlords and tenants have different views on this. Landlords can benefit from these measures. If the noble Lord would like, I will write to him in greater detail on that point. We would also like to see landlords with old houses make the investment that is right in those houses where they can do so.

I shall deal with some of the more detailed questions that were put to me, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I hope that in the process I will also deal with some of the queries of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester.

My noble friend talked about energy from waste and the possible advantages that the Danes are getting from us exporting some waste. My noble friend will remember that when I served in Defra I had an interest in waste. She will also know that there are sometimes difficulties in getting planning consent for energy from waste plants. I will write to her in greater detail on that, as it goes slightly beyond my brief at the moment. I also note that she mentioned the firm DONG in Denmark—I think it has now changed its name to something else that I cannot pronounce: Ørsted. I have recently seen some of its windmills off Barrow, which is now the largest wind farm in Europe, providing, I think, a very large increase in renewables from that source.

I agree with what my noble friend said about more homes being retrofitted. The new innovation routes could allow multiple measures to be installed in homes. That approach would need to be sponsored by us to demonstrate that it could be cost-effective. That information would need to be provided to Ofgem, the scheme administrator, to ensure that it met the relevant standards. If I can give her some further detail on that and on potential figures for those new district heating connections, I will write to her in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, was concerned about the end of the old scheme and the start of the new. I assure him that early delivery means that the measures which meet the new scheme’s rules, and which are delivered before Parliament agrees these regulations, will count towards the supplier’s obligations. We will have a seamless transformation of these matters. I also assure the noble Lord that there will be the appropriate audit he seeks. Ofgem requires measures to be installed to specific standards and 5% of the measures are checked by Ofgem under the scheme’s technical monitoring checks. I hope that 5% will be sufficient for the noble Lord to consider that it provides the appropriate audit and checks.

The noble Lord asked about the housing stock that is not covered by the ECO scheme. We are reviewing the fuel poverty strategy and will make an assessment of how best to meet the fuel poverty targets. As I made clear, the clean growth strategy has set aspirations to decarbonise all sectors of the UK economy. The buildings mission aims to at least halve the energy use of new buildings by 2030, as well as halving the cost of renovating existing buildings to a standard similar to new buildings. I repeat that new buildings are covered by current building regulations, and therefore any new buildings will be appropriately insulated. However, we want to get old buildings up to the same standard as new buildings while increasing quality and safety.

The noble Lord had other queries. He quoted from paragraph 7.20 that there was some interest from the public and said that he wished to see more. We would all like to see more interest from the public—that is true of a great many schemes throughout government, way beyond this one. I assure the noble Lord that a number of members of the public responded to the consultation. They obviously had an interest in energy issues, energy efficiency and fuel poverty. The majority of the responses were supportive of consultation, as I set out in my opening remarks. I hope that as a result of this debate—should people be taking much interest in it—and other measures, others throughout the country will take an interest in this, and that those firms involved in the scheme will do their bit to contact the public and let them know what is available, particularly for those with low-cost housing.

As I said, I welcome the generally positive tone taken by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and my noble friend. I hope that in due course the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, will come round to that view and accept that this will go a long way towards meeting the problems of fuel poverty, will help to decarbonise and will help to meet the targets that we hope to—and will—meet by 2030 and beyond. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Electricity and Gas (Powers to Make Subordinate Legislation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 30th October 2018 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, the regulations were laid before the House on 5 September. As we approach EU exit, my department is working to ensure that our energy legislation continues to function effectively after exit day. In recent years the EU has introduced through the third energy package a suite of legislation governing the energy systems of member states. Much of this is technical legislation, known as European network codes and guidelines which apply to energy operators and regulators.

To maximise continuity, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 will incorporate the majority of this legislation into domestic law when we leave the EU. This instrument is the first of a package of energy-focused regulations amending this retained EU law to ensure that the UK’s energy legislation and markets work effectively after exit. This instrument does so in two ways: first, by ensuring that directly applicable EU law concerning electricity and gas will be effectively incorporated into domestic law; secondly, by enabling the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to amend elements of this retained EU law in a simple and proportionate way, ensuring that our energy legislation can keep up with the rapid pace of technological advances and market developments. To do so, this instrument will transfer legislative functions conferred by four EU regulations from the European Commission to the UK Government and Northern Ireland Executive under the powers of Section 8 of the withdrawal Act.

The first power being transferred by this instrument is a limited ability to create European network codes. The withdrawal Act will incorporate all direct EU legislation so far as is operative immediately before exit day. This means that provisions in force on exit day but applying from a later date will not be incorporated. This is the case for several European network codes. Without government action, this could create gaps in the energy regulatory framework, leading to uncertainty and detriment to industry, which has adapted rules and practices to comply with the network codes. It is therefore important that the UK can incorporate these missing provisions promptly through legislation. This is accomplished by Part 2 of the instrument, which will revoke the European Commission’s power to make new codes and instead substitute limited powers for the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy to make regulations bringing into domestic law provisions corresponding to the codes or parts of codes not captured by the withdrawal Act. These statutory instruments will themselves be subject to the affirmative procedure to ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny.

Secondly, this instrument will enable amendments to network codes by transferring powers currently held by the European Commission to the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy. These powers would be exercised using subsequent affirmative statutory instruments.

Thirdly, as well as powers relating to network codes, this instrument will transfer to the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy powers to amend definitions and reporting requirements under the EU regulation on wholesale energy market integrity and transparency, known as REMIT. REMIT prohibits insider trading and market manipulation in wholesale energy markets and provides energy regulators with valuable tools to fight these crimes. The power to amend definitions is limited and may be used only to ensure coherence with other relevant financial services and energy legislation, or to take into account developments in wholesale energy markets.

The fourth power under this instrument concerns the security of gas supply regulation, which creates common standards and indicators to measure threats to gas security and defines how much gas is needed to maintain security of supply. The regulation contains templates for risk assessments, preventive action plans and emergency plans to be carried out by the Government. Further, the regulation contains powers for the European Commission to amend these templates using delegated acts. This instrument transfers these to the Secretary of State. Powers to amend the security of gas supply regulation and REMIT would be exercised through subsequent negative statutory instruments. This is appropriate as these powers permit only narrow amendments to very limited provisions of these regulations.

This instrument extends to Northern Ireland. As energy is a devolved matter, this instrument transfers powers variously to the Secretary of State and to the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, respecting the devolution settlement. In addition, my department has consulted with the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy throughout. While this instrument permits the Secretary of State to exercise its powers in respect of Northern Ireland, this would occur only in respect of a reserved area such as international relations, or when the Department for the Economy determines that it is unable to act in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers. Each time this occurs, it would be accompanied by a ministerial Statement explaining why it was necessary.

In conclusion, the regulations are a sensible and necessary use of the powers of the withdrawal Act that will maximise continuity in our energy regulations as we leave the EU. I commend the regulations to the House.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

It is left to me to start this rather technical discussion. On this occasion, I will stick to a rather strategic level, if the Minister does not mind. First, it has been the Government’s intention in our EU negotiations to remain in the single energy market, which I hugely welcome. I would be interested to understand from the Minister whether there has been any progress on that; whether that might appear in the political declaration of our future relationship in the withdrawal agreement; whether the Government are still keen to do that; and, if we are successful despite our red lines and the Government’s general intention to come out of the single market, whether the instruments would be necessary if we remain in the EU internal energy market.

Moving on from that, we have interconnectors. On codes and other technical matters, once we leave, if we are not part of the internal energy market, we will no longer have access to discussions on or information around codes used by that market. I would be interested to understand what effect that will have on interconnectors between us and the European Union at that time. Certainly the Select Committee that I chair was very concerned about the inefficiencies in trading—not so much around interruption of supply but around increases in energy prices due to inefficiencies because of the relationship not being as smooth as it was before—that might come about from that.

I want to ask a fundamental question. As the Minister mentioned, the secondary legislation concerns Northern Ireland as well. As he knows, the island of Ireland has a completely integrated energy market—a so-called single energy market. What preparations have the Government made, particularly in the case of no deal, so that this energy market for electricity and gas can continue to function, with powers coming back to the UK and such disintegration—that is, no longer being completely under the purview of the internal energy market? Will that single energy market in Ireland still work despite the fact that the network codes will change? This system seems fundamental to Northern Ireland’s energy needs, let alone those of the Republic.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to the regulations—the first of many to come concerning the UK’s exit from the EU. The Committee will consider many technical energy matters. It will not be entirely simple to identify the crucial elements and their implications. However, I will echo the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on the more challenging aspects of the regulations on wider-ranging topics, such as the internal energy market and the position of the island of Ireland.

On the face of it, the instrument seems simple enough. It moves powers held by the European Commission to a domestic authority, giving the Secretary of State power to alter them—in this case, referring to European network codes and guidelines—and adopt the amendments overall as “retained direct EU legislation”. Later amendments that will not come into force by 29 March 2019 will not be regarded as retained direct EU legislation. They will be resolved, perhaps even revoked, by exit day under separate secondary legislation, along with elements of retained EU law where the Secretary of State considers that the EU instruments retained in law will not be capable of operating in isolation from the rest of the EU instrument. Powers are also taken in the SI to amend the provisions of REMIT, an EU regulation concerning wholesale market integration and transparency, to apply internally to the UK and not to have to report to EU authorities.

Some amendments will be made by affirmative procedure and some negative. As your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee concluded, all is so clear, so far. Perhaps the Minister can confirm first whether all these amending instruments will be amending only: that is, not enabling new powers through secondary legislation. That does not seem to have been commented on.

More importantly, this question brings up the whole issue of the internal energy market. Unlike Euratom and other bodies established by treaty, the IEM is merely a collection of agreements among member states on how the European energy market is to be conducted. It has been stated many times that it would be advantageous for membership of the IEM to be retained, or a close association with it. How far could any statement go when it is not really a distinct entity? This order would be regarded as a contingent action, to be effected and commenced if no suitable alternative arrangement for energy trading through interconnectors can be put into place—rather like the contingent nature of the Nuclear Safeguards Bill, now an Act, as the Minister will remember. Can the Minister clarify whether this is the Government’s intention or whether, as the memorandum seems to suggest, the order will apply regardless of any deal and be part of a signal to break with the IEM under all scenarios? Will he also clarify the Government’s general intention toward the internal energy market?

Very pertinent in this respect is the position regarding Northern Ireland. Ireland, north and south of the border, already operates under an all-Ireland grid. Given the possibility that Northern Ireland will not operate its own grid requirements at Brexit, is it intended to break up the Ireland grid? While paragraphs 7.12 and 7.13 of the Explanatory Memorandum deal with the position as now, when there is not a functioning Executive, is it intended that Northern Ireland will function on different codes from the rest of Ireland at Brexit? Can the Minister explain what is intended and how it will work on a United Kingdom basis with Northern Ireland and the Irish grid?

While an effective system must be in place upon Brexit, does this order—while enabling continuity for UK authorities—close the door on options for a better working of the energy system after Brexit through close association with the internal energy market? Can the Minister provide the Committee with any further clarity? If any of his remarks can assure the Committee on this point, I can confirm the order today.

Companies (Directors’ Report) and Limited Liability Partnerships (Energy and Carbon Report) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson]

I do not want to prolong this, but will part of that be on supply chains and how the Government see they should be incorporated into carbon reporting?

[Lord Henley]

I notice exactly what the noble Lord says. It would be very difficult for these regulations to include supply chains, but it obviously is a relevant matter. If we close down one business and shift the thing overseas we do not achieve anything for the world as a whole. Obviously it needs to be considered how it could be done, but that is another matter. I will write in greater detail to the noble Lord.

I believe that what we are offering offers simpler, better energy and carbon reporting and will encourage compliance by companies and LLPs to support the transition to the low-carbon economy that we wish. It will deliver long-term benefits across the UK and throughout the world. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, should have voted against the Bill at Second Reading because he clearly does not believe in it. I have my own reservations about how this absolute price cap will work, but the relative price cap proposed in the amendment is a much better way of doing things. Ofgem will not have to set a cap under that regime; the companies themselves will set the cap by their entry rate. That is why this system works.

The only reason I disagree with the amendment, although I support it because it would make the Bill much better than it would be otherwise, is because we should have a relative cap immediately and not worry so much about the absolute cap. In fact, we could have both at the same time. At least the amendment would introduce a relative cap. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has said, it would remove the “tease and squeeze” factor, which is one of the worst aspects of the energy market and price comparison sites. We would achieve our long-term aim of having rates that reflect market conditions, leading to competition on an even playing field that people can understand. It seems to me that the relative price cap is hugely superior to the absolute price cap that Ofgem is being asked to implement.

I support this amendment. I just wish that the relative price cap could be brought forward to now rather than after the present price cap ends, but this is a way for the future and the right approach. All Ofgem has to decide is what the maximum differential should be, and then the energy companies would decide their own cap. What could be better? I cannot understand any argument against a relative price cap. It just makes so much sense.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has put forward his amendment and it is quite obvious that he is in favour of it. I have to warn him that if he is intending to press this amendment to a vote, it would possibly create further delay and uncertainty and, whatever anyone’s views on the Bill, we on these Benches and noble Lords opposite feel that it is important to get it on the statute book as quickly as possible so that those whose duty is to do so can get on with finding the appropriate cap and get it in place before the cold weather arrives. It might be that in this wonderful spell the noble Lord has forgotten what cold weather is, and I will remind him of that come November. We want Ofgem and others to be able to get on with their work, and any delay which this amendment might create would be unfortunate.

I am grateful to hear from various elements on the Liberal Democrat Back Benches. I do not know what the official view of the Liberal Party is, but I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, who gave very concise and encouraging reasons why this amendment ought to be opposed and emphasised that the situation is changing and we are facing a time when wholesale prices might rise. We also had an intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I normally find the noble Lord a breath of clarity, but if I wrote his remarks down correctly, I think he said that he disagrees with the amendment but supports it and went on to say that he agrees with it—anyway, I was confused by his lines.

Hinkley Point C

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 26th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend, with his local knowledge as the former Member for that area, knows exactly what his former constituents are going through, and he is right to address those points. All sites of this sort go through a rigorous planning process. In that process, it is possible for the planning authorities to grant planning permission through a Section 106 agreement, looking to get benefits from the developers in that area. That has been dealt with by the local authority in that process.

On top of that, as I made clear in earlier answers, there are also the advantages to the area through spend in the area—I mentioned the spend directly on the site, on the roads and on other things, the contribution that EDF is making, as well as the spend on the supply chain in the entire south-west region.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, we are often told that one Parliament cannot bind the actions of the next, and we are in another Parliament now. Clearly, as the noble Lord, Lord King, said, the disruption to the local community is now. So why do the Government not think that it would be better to bring these payments forward? The district authority, Sedgemoor, has proposed that ridding the district of fuel poverty would be an excellent way to use some of the money—appropriate and something that could start now. Surely the Government could do that.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have a process, we announced what that process was and that process is to bring in benefit to the area when the plant becomes operational. Meanwhile, there are other ways in which EDF can help, which I have gone through—the Section 106 agreement and other things, and the spend it is making in the area which, again, is of benefit to the area. I could go on listing—

Energy Policy

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches believe very much that this is the wrong decision. I will very quickly give the reasons why. First, in order to meet our climate targets, we need all technologies to contribute. We believe very strongly—as was shown in a number of studies—that there would be a reducing price in terms of scale as the technology rolled out. We have seen this very strongly with other renewable technologies.

There are other elements to the project. It is also partly an energy-storage project—an area that is particularly needed in terms of the variability of other renewables. And of course, perhaps not in Swansea but in other lagoons where something similar could have happened if this had gone ahead, there is the whole area of flood management that would also save considerable costs in terms of a holistic management approach to the coast.

Of course, the irony is that 2018, the year we are in at the moment, is 10 years after the Climate Change Act, yet between 2016 and 2017 we saw a 56% reduction in renewables investment. So the curve the Minister talked about in terms of our improved performance will go down because of lack of investment. In fact, renewables investment last year was at its lowest since 2008, when the Climate Change Act came in. We are not heading to meet our fourth or fifth carbon budget and we need to reduce our carbon emissions by 3% per annum to get to our target in 2050. So we have an investment crisis at the moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned the time taken over this. The Hendry report came out 18 months ago. I remember that the original discussions were during the coalition Government period. What message is this to investors in renewable technologies? The way that it has been dealt with, the timescales and the opaqueness of the decision taking are difficult to understand, particularly when it was obvious that the Government were going to say no several months ago and have only just got round to giving that reaction and decision.

I come back for a moment to costs and refer to the Hendry review. Charles Hendry was a Conservative politician and Minister of State. He was highly respected across the whole of Parliament when he was an MP. He said about the project:

“I believe that the evidence is clear that tidal lagoons can play a cost effective role in the UK’s energy mix and there is considerable value in a small … pathfinder project … Most importantly, it is clear that tidal lagoons at scale could deliver low carbon power in a way that is very competitive with other low carbon sources”.


That is something that cannot be written off in the way the Minister did.

I have the following questions. Why has it taken so long to take the decision, which was clearly going to be taken some time ago? How are we going to meet the fourth and fifth carbon budgets? Given the regular quote in that Statement about the costs of technologies, when are the Government going to bring back onshore wind, which is the cheapest of those technologies and the one that would help to bring down energy bills tomorrow and in the years to come?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their contributions and for their questions. I hope that I can deal with the points they made.

I will start with the point made by both noble Lords about the delay in getting the decision right. I have to say that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, in a sense answered that point. The important thing was that we wanted to get the decision right and wanted to look at it as a whole, not just in relation to the cost of energy but also taking into account all the other factors that the noble Lord mentioned, including, for example, the amenity advantages and—this was raised in another place—the use of steel and the effect that that might have on the Port Talbot steelworks. Of course we did. We looked at those issues, which made the sums much more complicated. At the same time, we were also seeing quite a reduction in the cost of offshore wind, as the Statement made clear. I quoted those figures; the reduction complicates matters further. It also makes clearer the case put forward by my right honourable friend about making this decision. That is why—at the right point, I would say—my right honourable friend came to another place and made decisions. It is my privilege to repeat them today.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked about other potential benefits. There are some, which we looked at. In the end, one has to come back to them, whether they are amenity advantages or jobs in the construction phase, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson —or perhaps it was the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. The benefits are necessarily limited and the jobs are limited to the construction phase. Though great, the amenity benefits are not enough to deal with the fact that, over the period of this project’s existence, we will still pay three times as much for electricity as for electricity that could be obtained from offshore wind, because the cost of that wind has reduced so much.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also talked about the need for diversity of supply. Again, I have discussed that at some length in this House a number of times. Occasionally, I put to noble Lords on the Liberal Benches the need to look at the advantages that might come from the extraction of shale gas. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, does not like to comment on that, but his noble friend Lord Bruce offered praise for shale gas, whereas his noble friend Lady Featherstone is not so keen. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, looked as though he did not want to comment on this when we discussed it last week. We want diversity of supply because, as made clear by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, it brings us security. We want security, but not at excessive cost. I will not rehearse the figures in the Statement about the potential cost, but it is too great on this occasion.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also talked about new technology and the possibility of costs coming down. On this occasion, I do not think that the technology is particularly new. We are talking about boring earth, concrete and other things with steel into the ground or the sea to make barriers. That is the major cost. I do not think there is the scope for cost reduction that came with the development of offshore wind, where we saw installations getting bigger and blades getting more efficient. As a result, we saw the great advantages of technology moving forward. Here, we are dealing with what one might call relatively old technology that will not come down in cost.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked what the acceptable cost was. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made clear in another place, he was not prepared to put a figure on the cost because other factors would be taken into account for each project, which we would look at in the context of other possible benefits and the cost of the electricity. We are not ruling out the prospect of tidal lagoons in the future but this particular one looked expensive. Other tidal lagoons might be cheaper if they are bigger. There are economies of scale in electricity costs. Each project would have to be looked at individually.

Both noble Lords talked about the reduction of carbon emissions. We accept that there would be such a reduction in this case. We want to go on doing what we can to reduce our emissions as much as possible. But again, as I want to make clear, we can do that only when taking costs into account.

I want to comment briefly on the alleged reduction in investment. There has been a reduction but a great deal of investment was made. We have seen rapid growth in renewables since 2010. We have seen the use of renewables go up from 6.9% in 2010, at the beginning of the coalition, to around 30% today.

I think I have dealt with most of the points made by noble Lords. I hope they will accept that, in the end, the case is pretty clear. The scheme was imaginative and good, and it was right that we looked at it in some detail, but the cost of the electricity is just too great.

Offshore Environmental Civil Sanctions Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, before the Minister gets up, I declare an interest as a board member of the Marine Management Organisation, which has certain responsibilities relating to marine pollution in the English seas.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I note the declaration of interest from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I am more than happy to share the table that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, referred to, which my right honourable friend Claire Perry shared with colleagues in another place. I will write to the noble Lord and the other noble Lords who took part in the debate.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, let me make it absolutely clear that the regulations apply only to breaches of legislation by offshore oil and gas companies in this field and that they do not cover other marine activities. Obviously they are, as the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, put it, designed to reduce the number of incidents. I quoted figures of a little over 4,000 since 2016. That figure sounds rather alarming, but it includes, as far as we know, spillages of the most minor sort, just as any petrol station will report even very minor spillages if it is operating properly. We want to make sure that we can deal with the more serious matters. By extending this to civil sanctions, we are trying to offer OPRED a more proportionate response in how it deals with these matters. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that OPRED is perfectly content with the resources that it has—it has some 20 offshore inspectors, no doubt speeding around in their boats waiting to put their parking tickets on the various rigs, as the noble Lord put it.

However, as we said, we want to make sure that we can make an appropriate response in the right case. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, “But, hold on, you’ve got exactly the same standard of proof, and since they can appeal against this, wouldn’t it be just as easy to use the criminal sanctions, as they are already available?” The point of being able to use civil sanctions is that one can operate much more speedily, whereas with criminal sanctions, OPRED, not being a prosecuting authority, would have to hand this over to other bodies. Not understanding much about criminal law in Scotland—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, will correct me if I am wrong—I imagine that would be to the procurator fiscal, whereas by using civil sanctions, one can be more nimble-footed.

The imposition of civil penalties will be published. Although, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, put it, we are talking about small change for some of the big boys, it is our considered view that, because we can publish this information, offshore operating companies would be very keen to avoid the negative publicity. In addition, criminal prosecutions have to be retained in the relevant regulations for the most serious breaches. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, suggested reducing the burden of proof for the civil prosecutions. I do not think that is possible under the parent legislation in terms of the powers we have to make this regulation—if I am wrong, I will certainly write to the noble Lord to correct it. Therefore, we will be looking at the same standard of proof.

I am grateful for the words of support from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I commend the Motion.

Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I appreciate that that is the case and I have been on various websites that have offered me the choice of going either for a cheaper deal or what is termed a greener deal: that is an option for individuals to make. What we are looking at in this Bill is obviously to provide a cap to provide safeguards for people.

The Bill places a duty on Ofgem to consult on exemptions to the cap for green tariffs—those tariffs that support the production of gas or the generation of electricity from renewable sources. Having consulted, Ofgem will then have the power to implement exemption from the cap. That is for it; we are not opposed to green tariffs being exempt.

Moving on, network costs was another concern of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others. He asked, while being tougher in the future was all well and good, were customers being ripped off now? One could say that this is a matter for Ofgem: it is the independent regulator and responsible by law for setting the price controls. Ofgem reports that its assessment of network company business plans and the benefit-sharing arrangements in place in the price control is expected to save the consumers yet another £15 billion in the current price control Bill.

The seventh point the noble Lord raised was about timing. I repeat what I said at the beginning: it is important that we make good progress with the Bill, that we get it through to Royal Assent before the Summer Recess, and then we—or, rather, Ofgem—can get on with the process of bringing in a price cap, so that we will be ready with everything in place for the coming winter.

Lastly, I will touch on some of my noble friend Lord Ridley’s points. He referred to the “pachyderm in the parlour” and blamed the Government for putting up energy costs by imposing greenery, as I think he would put it, on household energy bills. I say to him that government policy costs make up only a relatively small proportion of the household energy bill—around 8% on average, according to Ofgem. Last year, as he will be aware, we published our Clean Growth Strategy, which outlined our commitment to supporting the growth of clean and renewable energy for all. Action to cut emissions can be a win-win for consumers: better insulated homes and more efficient vehicles mean less money spent on gas, electricity and other fuels. Our policies have helped reduce energy bills and costs overall: for example, my noble friend will be aware that we have seen the cost of solar cells come down by some 80% since 2008 and, as I said earlier, the cost of offshore wind has declined by about 50% over the past two years.

[Lord Teverson]

Does the Minister agree—I am sure he does—that when it comes to vulnerability and all the issues around keeping warm, it is important to note that the gas and oil that I have to use as a rural dweller to keep warm are not charged any environmental costs and so do not incur those additional costs?

[Lord Henley]

I am not aware of how the noble Lord heats his house—unless he was the Liberal who confessed the other day to having an Aga run on oil, which always struck me as a good Liberal policy: it is a thing others are accused of. I will find out about that in due course. I will look carefully at the noble Lord’s question and come back to him in writing in due course. I was trying to make clear that our policies have helped reduce energy bills for households in efficiency savings—

[Lord Teverson]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but I was trying to be helpful. I apologise that I clearly was not. Environmental charges are only on electricity: they are not on gas and oil. He can take it from me. I do not want a reply from him. I apologise for having put him off his stride when I was trying to be helpful.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is always helpful, as are the Liberal Democrats. I look forward to the help they will be offering and providing in Committee and at later stages. I will end by making it clear—as I was trying to do before the noble Lord interrupted me twice—that our policies have helped reduce energy bills for households as, on average, energy efficiency savings have more than offset the cost of supporting the low-carbon investment. The Bill will help consumers in due course. I look forward to an interesting Committee and Report thereafter, and I hope that all noble Lords will bear with me in what I said about the importance of timing in relation to the Bill. I beg to move.

Domestic Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme (Amendment) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I said earlier on, I will endeavour to improve; I know that the noble Lord will keep a record on these matters.

The purpose of the draft orders is to implement reforms to the renewable heat incentive, or RHI. The reforms will deliver changes that will strengthen the focus on long-term decarbonisation, offer better value for money for taxpayers, increase protection for consumers and further support supply chain growth in the renewable heat sector. Heat accounts for around half of the UK’s energy use and one-third of total carbon emissions. Increasing the share of heat derived from renewable sources is a critical challenge, both to meet our renewable energy targets and to deliver the Government’s long-term carbon goals. Building a vibrant renewable heat sector is a key objective of my department’s clean growth strategy and the industrial strategy. The RHI is the main programme to deliver those goals over this spending period. Before the RHI started, only 1% of our heat came from renewable energy sources; that figure is now around 7% of total heat.

This type of tariff-based support for renewable heat is the first scheme of its kind in the world. Inevitably, there are lessons to be learned, and these reforms are a response to some of the lessons from the early years. The National Audit Office published a review of the RHI in February this year, which we were pleased to receive. Many of its comments related to issues covered by the draft regulations, which I hope will go some way towards addressing some of the issues raised by the NAO, which were also noted by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. The draft orders will deliver a series of important reforms that will help us to deliver a more strategic mix of technologies and improve value for money over the next three years until the scheme closes in March 2021. I will highlight the main ones.

We will increase the tariffs available for biogas and biomethane technologies while introducing new restrictions on the feedstock that those plants use. That will encourage the increased use of food and agricultural waste and will reduce the use of energy crops, making better use of farmland for food production. Alongside changes already made last year, this will rebalance deployment away from biomass in favour of heat pumps, biogas and biomethane, which will all play a much stronger role in the scheme over the long term.

Another important change is that we will bring in tariff guarantees that will allow RHI applicants to secure their place on the scheme in advance of construction. This will support investments in larger plants that deliver better value for money. We will cap the amount of heat covered to 250 gigawatt hours per year to protect the scheme budget.

In the domestic scheme, take-up to date has been dominated by owners of larger homes. To promote wider uptake, we will introduce the assignment of rights. This will allow third parties to finance renewable technology and to be repaid directly from the RHI. Crucially, that will open up access to the scheme for those without up-front capital to pay for a new heating system.

Following consultation last year, we will limit the eligibility of certain heat uses. These provisions will remove most instances of wood-fuel drying and waste processing or drying. In addition, we will remove the use of heat for drying digestate in anaerobic digestion facilities as an eligible heat use. We consider that these processes are poor value for money and that many would not exist without RHI support. We will also remove support for heating swimming pools on the non-domestic scheme, unless the pool is for commercial or municipal use.

We are also introducing changes to allow more than one heat pump to use a common or shared ground loop. This should facilitate greater deployment of that important technology. The introduction of electricity metering for heat pumps across both schemes will allow participants to better monitor the efficiency of their plant and build confidence in the technology.

Following consultation, another change will be to increase the power efficiency threshold of combined heat and power technology from 10% to 20% to reduce the risk of overcompensation and to encourage plants to run more efficiently. There is also a whole series of mainly administrative changes to tighten cost control, reduce the risk of gaming and improve Ofgem’s delivery of both schemes, including by tightening its enforcement powers.

The Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme Regulations 2018 also consolidate all previous revisions to the original regulations, as recommended by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. The RHI plays a central role in the Government’s programme to decarbonise heating. These regulations are an important step in refining the scheme and I commend them to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, in general, I welcome this secondary legislation, in that the National Audit Office report from February certainly needed some reaction from the Government on the way that the scheme operates. Just to put it in a bit of context, the audit report included some very interesting figures: between 2012 and 2017, there have been some £1.4 billion-worth of payments, which should lead to commitments of some £23 billion. To me those sound like big numbers but, as we know from smart meters, they are absolutely piffling. There have been 78,000 installations already and there were expected to be 500,000 by 2020. It is estimated that we have got to about a fifth of that original target. To give the Government their due, they have responded to reality in this area and moved some of those targets.

Although the Minister made a strong point about this being a major contributor to our carbon targets, the point I want to make is that, in many ways, it is a small drop in the ocean of what we need to do to meet our carbon budgets in future. The renewable heat incentive is certainly nothing like sufficient to meet those budgets in the heating sector, nor was it ever meant to be. That sector is so important, but it is one in which we still have so few solutions for meeting our targets. In electricity generation, we are well on our way; in transport, we at least have the solutions on hand; but in space heating, we do not yet, and the RHI is never going to get us there. There are big challenges for this scheme.

I was quite surprised to see in the audit report that Ofgem, which is the manager of the scheme, had not really managed to tackle some of the gaming issues and was uncertain on the overpayments side. I guess that all auditors have to find something. Certainly, the report praises the GB scheme in comparison with that in Northern Ireland, where clearly the scheme got completely out of control and caused the political difficulties that we now have there. However, it is estimated that we still have some £3 million-worth of overpayments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as always, I make the offer of a letter to all noble Lords who took part in the debate, because obviously I will not be able to pick up all the points. I am grateful for noble Lords’ general welcome for the regulations and our response to the NAO report.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, talked about this being a drop in the ocean given the large sums of money that are involved—we all know that a billion here and a billion there soon adds up to quite a large sum. Take, for example, AD, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone. We know that AD will never solve all our problems, but it can deal with a certain amount of waste. As was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the important thing with any AD plant is to make sure that you have adequate waste as feedstock for the future. We do not want people producing waste for the sake of waste just to go into a plant. We want to use only genuine waste or, on occasion, to top it up with a certain amount of crops that are grown for that purpose. Principally, however, plants would be designed to deal with waste.

In my former life as a Defra Minister, I saw quite a number of AD plants taking in waste from very different sources. Where they were attached to a supermarket, one would see bucket loads of old yogurts or whatever else had gone past its sell-by date being tipped in. That was a good way of using it, and we want to devise schemes that will, as the noble Baroness rightly said, prevent that waste going to landfill. I saw excellent small schemes also. I remember one used by a salad producer, which took the waste from its own products—the stalks from tomatoes are actually rather difficult to break down—and used it to produce both heat and power to grow more tomatoes in due course, and used the digestate that comes out in the end to fertilise those tomatoes. It was, wonderfully, almost a closed loop. There are terrific advantages to AD, but, as we all know, it will not solve all the problems.

RHI will be an important step in helping to reduce carbon emissions and—I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—make progress towards the legally binding renewable energy targets that we have. As I made clear, we will certainly look very carefully at ensuring that there is suitable waste feedstock and that the scheme ensures current and future supplies to anaerobic digestion. If the noble Lord has a local problem in the south-west, it is important that he, and those in that world, brings it to the attention of the department when it is reviewing this matter. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, that my right honourable friend Claire Perry and the department will look constantly at these matters to make sure that there can be further tinkering to get it right.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about solar thermal. My understanding is that it is eligible for both schemes, so it is already supported by RHI. If he wants to look at that for his own domestic arrangements, he is welcome to do so.

As I said, I very much welcome what the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, had to say. I made it clear that we will keep these matters under review. I cannot give a precise date for when and how my right honourable friend will respond. I will certainly respond to some of the noble Baroness’s more detailed questions, particularly those relating to electrolysis and other matters, most of which I shall make a complete hash of if I try to respond to them now. I think all those taking part in this debate would be far more grateful for a written response.

The noble Baroness is right to raise the whole question of detecting abuses and gaming—something touched on by other noble Lords and which the NAO was wary of. As she pointed out, with any changes that we make, there are always potential unintended consequences, and we keep that under review. It is a large and varied scheme, and the non-domestic scheme in particular has huge variation in size, heat and use and the technology used between projects.

Despite all those challenges raised by the NAO, the department—the former Department for Energy and Climate Change, which noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches will know well because it was one of their great Secretaries of State who sat in that department, which is now within BEIS—is working with Ofgem and, I think, developing a better approach to identifying gaming. We will certainly respond to the NAO in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also welcomed the changes, and I am again grateful. He particularly welcomed the assignment of rights, but was concerned that it might lead to a lack of access to loans or other finance for a number of businesses and that that could be a barrier for them. I can only say that we have no plans to widen the assignment of rights beyond the household sector at the moment, but we would always want to keep all matters under review.

[Lord Teverson]

What is the logic to that? The issue for small and medium-sized businesses is exactly the same as for domestic users: it is about high capital outlay, which is equally difficult for SMEs as for private, domestic householders. This has really got in the way. The Government have a great solution there now for the domestic sector; if the principle is being breached, I do not see why it is a difficulty to extend it to the SME sector.

[Lord Henley]

I appreciate what the noble Lord says about there being no logic to it. It is just that there is no evidence at the moment that lack of access to loans is a barrier to business. If the noble Lord thinks otherwise and can produce evidence, it can be looked at.

As I said, the order has largely been welcomed, and I am very grateful for that. These changes are necessary as a result of the NAO report. I think that we would all agree that there have been considerable successes this year. It is only part of the whole scheme of trying to decarbonise the system—again, we wish to pursue that even further.

I want to pick up on one final comment from the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone. If I could persuade her and some of her Liberal friends of the benefits of what she referred to as fracking and of pursuing greater domestic production of gas—of which there is potentially a great deal in this country—in that it improves both our chances of a degree of decarbonisation and our energy security, I would feel that I had achieved a very great thing. That will no doubt come in the future. In the meantime, I will give way before I finally put these regulations to bed.

Swansea Tidal Lagoon: Hendry Review

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I think that the noble Lord is trying to put the wrong interpretation on that. As my right honourable friend made clear in responses earlier today in another place, she is still open on this matter, no decisions have been made and she still wants to continue those cordial relations with colleagues in the Welsh Government. I have not got a transcript of what she said but no doubt the noble Lord can look at Hansard tomorrow.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister could take this matter forward by telling us when the decision will be taken.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is slightly more of an optimist than I am.

Smart Meters Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

Again, I do not know about this year. I understand that the NAO still plans to undertake a review. It has not confirmed its timetable. Obviously, that is a matter for the NAO. When there is a new cost-benefit analysis, obviously we will look at it—but I cannot go into the NAO’s timetable.

[Lord Teverson]

Perhaps it might be useful if we could meet the NAO and go through this and make sure that the audit is broad enough in scope without it taking longer. I realise that this question is not completely to do with these amendments, but I did ask the Minister about the transferability of SMETS 1 meters, which is different from interoperability—SMETS 1 meters are surprisingly interoperable generally—and the problem of taking one out and replacing it with one that is almost identical but is from a different supplier. Is the Minister aware of that? Do his officials see that as a significant problem? Is there a solution so that we can stop this almost immediately, if it is happening?

[Lord Henley]

I think I had better take advice on that and possibly write to the noble Lord, or deal with it in any meeting that we have. I understand that some SMETS 1 meters can be upgraded. But I do not want to put on the record anything that I might have to make a personal statement about and correct the following day. Perhaps we could leave that to a letter or a discussion with the noble Lord.

[Lord Teverson]

I am very happy with that. I stress that it is an asset and financing issue, rather than an interoperability issue.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

One is the consequence of the other, as I understand it. That is the problem. When you change your supplier, I understand that on occasion you have to change the meter. Am I not correct?

[Lord Teverson]

Unfortunately, probably after the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War, the phoney war bit during the coalition Government was around the whole process more or less coming to a halt because this whole security issue came up, which was a major delaying factor at the time. I do not want to talk on behalf of the Government of that time, but security was given huge focus. From a personal point of view, I feel that that area has been dealt with enough at the moment. It clearly needs an ongoing security look, but it was one reason why the whole programme pretty much ground to a halt during part of the period of the coalition Government—if that is at all helpful.

[Lord Henley]

We will get on to “helpful” again later on. I do not know whether I can take the noble Lord much further. We have talked about security, and I have made it clear that we must give the public as much assurance as possible. I think that the noble Lord is happy about that and the involvement of GCHQ and others.

The noble Lord raised the question about consumers in effect losing functionality when switching supplier. When installing a smart meter, it is necessary for energy suppliers to take reasonable steps to inform the consumer that they may lose some of the functionality when switching supplier—but only some. There is also the question of whether those with SMETS 1 meters can switch supplier. The noble Lord’s question started on one level and moved to quite different levels at different moments, but I think that that was what he was talking about. Consumers with the first generation of SMETS 1 can still switch energy supplier, and they are often in a better position to do so. That is a matter for them, and they can continue to do that.

I shall now move on to the second in this block of amendments—the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, Amendment 6, which suggests that there should be a review of the code of practice by the Secretary of State. Receiving a positive installation experience that leaves consumers satisfied and well informed is vital to ensuring that they can engage with their smart meter and take control of their energy use. Energy suppliers were required by their licence to develop and adhere to an installation code of practice when installing in domestic and microbusiness premises. In developing this code, energy suppliers were required to ensure that it both supported the delivery of overarching objectives and, in a number of key areas, met detailed requirements. Those requirements include providing energy efficiency guidance, not charging consumers up front for the installation, and meeting the needs of vulnerable domestic consumers. Energy suppliers were also required to take into account the views of consumer groups and other interested parties when developing the code.

The code was consulted on in draft in 2013 and subsequently approved by Ofgem in its capacity as the authority in this area. It is overseen by a code governance board composed of representatives from large, small and microbusiness energy suppliers. It also includes representatives from Citizens Advice. Any of those representatives has the ability to propose amendments to the code, which are then presented to Ofgem for consideration. This governance framework ensures that consumer interests are represented on an ongoing basis across all elements of the code’s operation.

Energy supply licence conditions supporting the code of practice also require energy suppliers to put in place monitoring arrangements and procedures for reviewing and updating the code. As part of this activity, energy suppliers are required to obtain views from consumers on the installation process and conduct of their installers. To achieve this, the code requires all energy suppliers installing more than 5,000 smart meters a year to undertake a survey of their customers. These surveys are conducted regularly, the results are anonymised, and reports are provided to the code governance board on a quarterly basis, enabling any areas of concern to be identified and rectified, including through amendment to the code.

As a further backstop, in the event that significant concerns are raised regarding the suitability of the code, Ofgem also has the power to require energy suppliers to review specific features of the code and can direct modifications if necessary. The amendment here would require a one-off review of the code to be undertaken, but I hope that in outlining the governance and monitoring requirements already in place I have demonstrated that the code is already subject to ongoing review and continues to evolve to meet consumer needs.

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[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, may I correct something I said about Hinkley Point C? EDF’s latest estimate is actually £19 billion to £20 billion. Preventing that sort of capital expenditure on energy generation is what this programme should be about. I apologise to the Committee that it is a rather larger sum than even I thought.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, £1 billion here, £1 billion there and pretty soon we are talking real money. I will deal with the amendments in the order they came: that is, Amendments 5, 7, 12 and 13. Amendments 12 and 13 go together. Actually, all three go together, but there was some confusion.

Starting with Amendment 5, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, on energy efficiency and fuel poverty, I ought to say in passing that I very much support the spirit behind these amendments but I am concerned that they could undermine the efficient delivery of the rollout and could lead to unintended consequences and costs for consumers. But I will deal with the amendments one by one, starting with Amendment 5.

One of the main objectives of the smart meter rollout in Great Britain—it does not apply to Northern Ireland—is to put consumers in control of their energy use so that they become more informed and efficient, and save themselves money. Smart metering will reduce the costs for prepayment customers and enable remote topping-up, meaning that some of Britain’s hardest-pressed energy consumers will have access to more competitive deals and more convenience in paying for their energy. I was grateful for what the noble Baroness said about people with prepayment meters and the price cap. We will get on to the price cap for others more generally, but it is already in existence for people with prepayment meters and I think that it has been working with some success.

If I heard her aright, the noble Baroness said that she had heard that SMETS 2 meters posed a problem for some prepayment customers. We believe that SMETS 1 meters provide significant smart functionality to consumers, but SMETS 2 will provide them with additional benefits and will allow consumers always to retain smart functionality when they switch suppliers. SMETS 2 meters will also allow consumers, if they choose, to share data with third parties, and those third parties may be able to offer, for example, tailored energy-efficiency advice, which could be of use to certain customers.

Amendment 5 would introduce a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to commission a review to consider how the extended use of powers would impact energy use in the United Kingdom, with a particular focus on the impact on fuel poverty and energy efficiency.

With in-home displays offered to households as part of the installation, low-credit alerts are more visible, giving consumers an early warning. The ability for consumers to set a budget and to see exactly how much they are using, in pounds and pence, is giving prepayment consumers control over their energy use and contributing to greater levels of satisfaction among prepayment consumers. Certainly, the research that we have done shows that 84% of smart prepayment customers are satisfied with their smart meters and 88% are likely to recommend them. Government research shows that eight out of 10 would recommend them to family or friends, and 82% of people with a smart meter have taken at least one step to reduce their energy use. British Gas is reporting that its dual fuel customers with smart meters are making sustained 4% annual energy savings.

To some extent, that brings me on to the question about accessibility of meters raised by the noble Baroness. As she is well aware, the accessibility of existing meters can be pretty difficult, as I discovered in London the other day as I lay down on the floor trying to read a meter. I realised that I did not have my reading glasses with me but then realised that reading glasses would not help as I was wearing my contact lenses. It is a minor problem for someone in a reasonably fit state, but we accept that reading meters can be difficult for certain people, depending on where the meters are put.

The technical specifications for IHDs require them to be designed to enable the information on them to be easily accessed and presented in a form that is clear and easy to understand, including by consumers with impaired sight, memory, learning ability or dexterity. Energy suppliers, led by Energy UK, have been working together to develop a fully accessible IHD, and we expect that device to be available shortly. If it can be made available to those who have problems, the noble Baroness and I will also find it a great deal easier.

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[Lord Henley]

I do not necessarily take all claims from France as seriously as the noble Lord does. I will certainly have a look at that claim being made by the French, but I believe we are doing reasonably well. Obviously, I will have a look at what they are doing and, if there are things that we can learn from that, we should do so. Just as we will continue to monitor delivery in this country, we will study and look at what is happening abroad. I have received advice about what is happening and whether we are sharing our experience with other countries and whether other countries have shared their experience with us. We have looked not just at what is happening throughout Europe—we have met representatives from Ireland, Sweden, Spain, Malta and, I understand, France—but we have looked further afield to India, Australia and the United States. Lessons we have learned include the importance of consumer engagement. That is why I emphasised earlier what we have done on consumer engagement.

On the actual costs, the advice I have received is that the EU average comes in at £181, compared with our figure of around £155 for a single-fuel electricity installation. So that is somewhat lower. On that front we are doing better. If there is anything further I can add about gas distribution grids in Malta or Italy that might be of use or even of interest to the noble Lord, I will pass it on. Another matter that came up was a concern about privacy, which is something that the noble Lord is concerned about and we discussed earlier.

In conclusion, we will continue to monitor the delivery of the programme and will continue to provide updates in annual reports and an updated cost-benefit analysis. I do not think the amendments add much. They risk duplicating those processes and could result, as I said, in unintended consequences that might delay getting the benefits to the consumer. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Teverson]

The purpose of my amendment—I accept a lot of what the Minister said about its effects—was to get to understand what the test will be. What criteria will the department use to say, “SMETS 2 meters will work, they will integrate with the systems they have to integrate with, so we will give them the green light”? How will the assessment be made that SMETS 2 works—not just the individual meters but as a system—before we invest the other £8 billion?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have started. The noble Lord gave his figure for how many SMETS 1 meters have been installed—I think it was about 10 million, which I do not dispute. I do not have the precise figure in front of me. We feel it is likely that we will be ready to cease to count the SMETS 1 meters towards the target in about October and therefore the suppliers will move on to SMETS 2, which brings further benefits. Over this year, we will see a growth in the number. I am not going to give a precise figure now for how that will grow, but we are likely to see the benefits from that. There is no point sticking with SMETS 1 when we can move on to SMETS 2.

[Lord Teverson]

I agree entirely with that, but it is not the point I am trying to make. SMETS 2 operates through DCC in a different system. It has different software and capabilities; otherwise, there is no point in doing this. SMETS 1 machines work on different systems. They work through the suppliers in bespoke ways. I understand the difference between the two. We need to stop operating SMETS 1 as soon as possible and we want to roll out SMETS 2. What is the test so that we can be happy that SMETS 2 functions correctly and confident that it is all systems go? I do not understand the test.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

As I remember, the last time we debated this, by chance—I may be misremembering—a Home Office Minister was sitting next to me. I can confirm, however, that the Home Office is fully aware of the concerns expressed in debates of this sort, and we will make sure that it continues to be so. It is important to us that we continue to—as I put it—access the best talent. As the noble Lord will be aware, we have already doubled the number of available visas in the tier 1 exceptional talent review, and will be looking at changing Immigration Rules to enable world- leading scientists and researchers under the tier 1 route to apply for settlement after three years and to make it quicker for highly skilled students to apply for work in the United Kingdom after finishing a degree. We are, therefore, relaxing the labour market tests where appropriate.

The crux of this amendment, which relates to safeguarding staff—the Bill has been drafted in that way and so the amendment must be too—attempts to ensure the freedom of employment of specialists employed in that field. This is clearly a matter of particular interest in the light of the Government’s preparations for establishing a domestic nuclear safeguards regime, which, among other important work, means securing the right quality and quantity of appropriate safeguarding staff in the Office for Nuclear Regulation. Given the importance of attracting the right staff to work in this specialist field, the Government are committed to ensuring that the ONR has the right personnel. I can give the House a bit of information: in the most recent recruitment round for two further posts in this field there were 112 applicants for the ONR to look at. We will continue to work with the ONR to ensure that it has the right staff to regulate the UK’s new civil nuclear safeguards regime. Those figures show that there is no shortage, certainly in the world of recruiting and training the appropriate inspectors and building additional institutional capacity.

The noble Lord will not be surprised if I do not go into this, because he will then ask for further details. If I give him an assurance that the amendment is possibly itself defective and not suitable for inclusion, and he accepts that in spirit there is no need for it—since the Government are committed to ensuring that we have the right specialists and the Home Office continues to work in this field—I hope that he will feel able to withdraw Amendment 8.

[Lord Teverson]

I thank the Minister for his reply. It is good to have some figures: can we have more of them in these interactions around groups? I also remind the Minister that he regularly mentions the highly skilled and the talented. That may, I agree, be the case in nuclear safeguarding, but in a lot of Brexit areas, perhaps including some areas of the nuclear industry, the need is far broader. However, I take his point in regard to this Bill.

I also recognise that this issue will inevitably be fought out during the immigration Bill that we will eventually get. I am delighted that we will have another opportunity to debate Euratom in another Bill, to pursue sanity and perhaps get some change in this area. I therefore accept the noble Lord’s challenge—as it were—and his assurances about taking up these issues in the future immigration Bill, which we continue to await with interest. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for moving his amendment. He and the House really want two things. They want substantive reassurances and details of further reporting. I asked to have this amendment grouped with Amendment 6, which to some extent deals with this matter. We propose to put such reporting on the face of the Bill, and progress with the information technology systems required for the safeguarding regime will fall within that reporting duty. I hope that the noble Lord will feel that he does in due course get sufficient information. In the meantime, I will give an update about what is happening. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, I might have to write with further detail later on, but let us see how the quarterly statements take place to see whether they provide sufficient information. If not, noble Lords can come back to me.

The overall system of safeguards is generally referred to as a state system of accountancy for and control of nuclear materials. The noble Lord referred to that in my original Written Answer. That is also known as an SSAC. The last time I came across SSAC it was the Social Security Advisory Committee, but that was in another world and another place. We will not go there now. As part of this, the ONR plans to put in place an IT system which it refers to as the safeguards information management and reporting system. I do not know how you pronounce “SIMRS” so we shall refer to it by its initials. The SIMRS is aimed at enabling the ONR to obtain and process the information necessary to ensure timely submission to the International Atomic Energy Agency of the reports required by any future safeguards agreements with the agency. The SIMRS will also enable submission of any specific reports required by supplier states as part of nuclear co-operation agreements.

The ONR has estimated that it will cost some £10 million—the figure I gave some weeks ago in Committee—to establish a UK SSAC, and the SIMRS is included as a part of this overall estimate. A pre-qualification questionnaire in relation to the SIMRS was recently advertised on the Government’s digital marketplace. Sixteen suppliers responded, of which six have been invited to respond to the invitation to tender by 6 April. Responses to that tender will provide more certainty on estimated costs, and the ONR expects to let the contract in early May.

I of course take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, warned about IT systems from his experience with the health service and the Home Office. We are all aware of problems that new IT systems can have. I do not think that what we are proposing here is on the scale of what the National Health Service needs, but I accept that there can be problems. We and the department have a duty to examine that as carefully as we can. I give an assurance that we will do that as far as is possible.

Put very simply, that is where we are at the moment. We will keep noble Lords updated. We have accepted my Amendment 6, as amended by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. There is no need to further complicate the Bill’s proceedings by adding this amendment, which duplicates what we already have. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and welcome his undertaking that the IT systems will be included in the regular reporting. It would be useful if the Minister could answer my noble friend Lord Fox’s question about whether they are starting from zero or whether we are effectively modifying existing systems.

[Lord Henley]

I give an assurance to write to the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

[Lord Teverson]

I welcome that and on that basis beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Smart Meters Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, on the last or second to last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, he looked forward to a world with a SMETS 3 or 4 that might be able to assist a customer in finding a new supplier and direct him in that way. I think we are already there. I imagine that the noble Lord reads the Guardian more often than I do, but the Guardian of 11 March was talking about one company that is developing some sort of dongle that can be plugged into one’s meter and will automatically switch one to the best supplier according to the programme one puts in. One can put in, “I want the greenest supplier” or “I want the cheapest supplier” and one could find oneself having a different supplier from month to month, possibly two or three times a year. The future is good. I refer the noble Lord to that article to see just what is happening out there and what smart meters, as they are at the moment, could possibly lead to.

I have to say that, listening to the debate, I felt that it was a fairly Eeyoreish performance, even by the standards of this House. The noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, was politer—she referred to it as a masterclass in faint praise. The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, was, as always, very kind to me: after making her Eeyoreish speech, along with her colleagues and all other noble Lords, she said that she expected something more optimistic from me, “Because the noble Lord always is very optimistic”. I think there is nothing wrong with being optimistic when one has technical developments that are going to bring great benefits to everyone. They are going to bring benefits to the consumer, as I made clear in my opening speech, but they will also bring benefits in terms of reducing our overall consumption and in many other ways.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, I was very amused by the picture of her noble friend Lord Teverson under the floorboards or somewhere—I am not quite sure where he was; it was rather a confusing picture, but he was in the rain with a torch. All I can do is refer the noble Lord to Hilaire Belloc’s “Lord Finchley”. The noble Lord will remember that Lord Finchley came to an untimely end because he tried to do these things himself. In future, the noble Lord can get someone else to look at these things, but smart meters will solve the problem for him.

Others, such as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and me, took us back to 2008. I was very grateful to him for doing that and for saying that back in 2008 he was giving warnings, in his Cassandra-like way, and now he could say, “I told you so”. The great thing is that he can say “I told you so” to everyone here, in that the 2008 Act, as the noble Lord and others on the Benches opposite will remember, was passed under a Labour Government. The 2011 Act that I referred to was passed under the coalition Government. I think that we had a Liberal Democrat in both the business department and the energy department during that time, so their fingers must have touched this at some point. Now, in 2018 we have a Conservative Government, so perhaps, like Peter Simple’s Dr Heinz Kiosk, I can just say, “We are all guilty!”, if something has gone wrong. I think, from the degrees of optimism I have listened to in the course of the debate, that there is a general acceptance that smart meters are going to be able to do something that has not been available before and that, as I said, that will bring great advantages to us.

A very large number of questions of a fairly detailed sort have been raised and I will try to address a number of them. However, I think that what a debate of this sort also shows is that even a Bill such as this—a Bill that is broadly welcomed on all sides, that has been through pre-legislative scrutiny, that has had a very useful trip through another place since that pre-legislative scrutiny and that is now here—will benefit from what your Lordships can do in Committee. I look forward to that Committee and hope that we can tease out just where the problems are so that I can give appropriate assurances on matters that are relevant to noble Lords and, if necessary, make amendments, but I do not think that that will be necessary. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, put it, this is a largely technical Bill dealing with three small matters, but its title allows us to discuss the generality of smart meters, smart metering and how we get the rollout completed. I hope that in the course of this debate, Committee and further stages we can continue that process and provide the proper assurances.

This afternoon, I propose to answer a few of the questions to the best of my ability. I think it would be useful if I write another letter to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and place a copy in the Library, setting out a more detailed answer of the sort that one cannot properly give to some of the more detailed questions and very sensible suggestions made by my noble friend Lady Manzoor. I give that assurance that I will send that detailed response to all noble Lords.

In the meantime, I shall answer a few of the questions that have been asked. The first, and most important, is to give some sort of assurance that we believe that it is still possible, despite the numbers which the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, quoted from Which?. The numbers probably appeared in the Daily Mail as well, for all I know—that was another publication that was mentioned. We believe that we will be able to get there in due course. The rollout to date has been growing. Around 400,000 smart meters are being installed every month. That has to get up to a bigger figure if we are going to get to the end in the three years that are available. I do not think that is representative of the next phase of the programme when most suppliers will be installing smart meters with greater numbers of installers and more types of customers across Britain. We will certainly continue to collect data—this was something that the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, asked about—on the rollout, getting independent, official, quarterly statistics on progress by the large suppliers, and we will make sure that they are published quarterly, as I think they have been since September 2013. In addition, a summary of the annual rollout progress for the calendar year is published every March, so we should have that in due course. I do not know whether it will be before Committee, as no one has yet given me a suggested date for the next stage of the Bill.

[Lord Teverson]

As I said, I think it is impossible to get to that. Can I just be clear about the commitment? It is to offer everybody a smart meter. Are the Government clear with the suppliers about what “offer” means and that it is not just an email saying, “Do you want a smart meter”? Are we clear about the target? Not everybody wants one. Is that a potential get-out clause in this target?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord knows that we are not going down the route of saying that everyone will have one, but we hope everyone will see the benefits of them and that everyone will be offered one, and I hope that offer will be more than just the email that the noble Lord suggests. It is difficult to persuade people to change. Some months ago we discussed the ease with which one can change one’s electricity supplier. However, because of inertia, few people do. The easier that it becomes and the more benefits that there are, the more people will switch supplier. The same applies to smart meters: people will adopt them as they see the benefit. We shall continue to push suppliers to do what they can, because of the benefits. That is not only those benefits to consumers that we all recognise, but those to the country through reducing our overall electricity consumption by evening it out and those other benefits identified.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, as we are in Committee, it may be helpful if I quote article 77 of the draft treaty published by the European Commission yesterday, which is specifically around nuclear safeguards. It states:

“The United Kingdom shall implement a safeguards regime applying a system offering equivalent effectiveness and coverage as that provided by the Community in the territory of the United Kingdom until the end of the transition period”.


That accepts that there is to be a transition period, as long as we are not in a no-deal situation. There is a transition period—there is no disagreement between us and the EU about that—but the EU expects that to be at Euratom standards. I cannot see that that can be any different if we remain within the acquis during that period, which I think both sides are agreed to anyway.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, I start by offering my apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, as he did not receive a copy of that letter. I will make sure that copies are made available. I thought that I had arranged for copies of all the letters—those I sent on the 20th, the one on the 28th to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the one from my noble friend, I think again on the 28th, to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—to be placed in the Library. After 40 years in this House, I still do not quite know exactly what that means—I think one can go along to the Library and get a copy, but I leave that to noble Lords. I will certainly make sure that copies are made available to all those who want them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I am fully aware of the concerns of the noble Lord and of the industry. Obviously it is a matter for the Home Office to develop these policies, and I am very grateful that a Home Office Minister—just by chance—happens to be sitting near me; she will listen to this and take it back to her colleagues. I repeat that we are satisfied that we can deal with safeguarding. Our concerns, the noble Lord’s concerns and other concerns will be dealt with. Proposals for a future immigration system will be set out shortly. That is something that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy will play his part in.

The noble Lord said that his amendment was a probing one. I hope that I have given the appropriate assurances for him to withdraw it.

[Lord Teverson]

I thank the Minister for his response. No doubt this debate will continue when we debate the Brexit and energy security report on the Floor of the House. I will just say—to all Ministers who are present—that the whole of history tells me that this is going to be a very difficult ask. It seems obvious, in terms of getting it right for the nation, that it ought to happen, but I suspect that it will be a lot more difficult than perhaps the Minister hopes. I will reflect on the answer and see whether there is anything more exacting we can say on Report—but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw.

[Lord Teverson]

I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. He is absolutely right. Experts are needed not only for decommissioning but for keeping going the existing fleet of nuclear power stations, which provide some 20% of low-carbon energy to our energy system at the moment. We also need nuclear co-operation agreements so that we have not just people but spare parts and everything else for this sector. I can see that the Minister wishes to intervene.

[Lord Henley]

I just want to interrupt the noble Lord to offer him one further statistic to indicate how long this will continue. Again during my trip to Sellafield, I was reminded that decommissioning there will continue well into the next century—in other words, the grandfathers of the people who will be working on it then have not yet been born.

[Lord Teverson]

The whole area of the financing and decommissioning of Sellafield is the subject of another debate—and a contentious one—which we will not get into. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for having gone through all that. That session of the committee which I chair was an eye-opener. That is why I tabled my Amendment 10, which we will consider in the next sitting of the Committee. The amendment is about labour mobility, which is an absolutely key factor in terms of not just safeguarding but the nuclear industry as a whole. I look forward to continuing that debate on that occasion and very much agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that I can respond to and deal with the various points that have been made. I am very grateful for all the contributions that have been made, particularly from my former noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, who stressed that she wanted reassurances. I think that was the gist of what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said as well. He was seeking reassurances on when the ONR would be ready and whether we would meet the appropriate standards under the IAEA and so on.

I will refer back to the letter that I sent to all noble Lords, to which the noble Lord referred, and remind them of that. I also remind the Committee that we have committed to a domestic nuclear safeguards regime that is equivalent in effectiveness and coverage to that currently provided by Euratom. That is the commitment that we have made and I repeat it to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. That means a level of inspections and other regulatory arrangements—it is not just inspections—that goes beyond the normal international standards as applied by the IAEA that would be expected from the United Kingdom: for example, additional assurance and verification activities at additional facilities.

It is crucial that we meet all those international standards following our withdrawal from Euratom. Compliance enables the United Kingdom to discharge international commitments and would also underpin international nuclear trade arrangements with key partners such as the US, Canada, Japan and Australia. It is right therefore that the ONR focuses its efforts on ensuring that the United Kingdom is able to meet those standards immediately on withdrawal from Euratom and seeks to move to Euratom standards as soon as possible thereafter. The important thing is that we get to the IAEA—I hope I have got the letters in the right order; it is difficult to remember sometimes—as soon as possible thereafter.

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[Lord Henley]

I am answering the question but the noble Lord is enjoying himself. The ONR is recruiting and will make sure that it has the right people to provide the appropriate safeguards regime on 29 March next year to meet IAEA standards. Obviously we are not going to impose restrictions on where employees go thereafter. Is this a new policy being developed by the party opposite, that once people are trained in any job, they cannot move on and have to stay? These people will be employed by the ONR, and it is then a matter for the ONR to make sure that they have an attractive career and wish to continue working for the ONR. I am sure they will find that it is an attractive career and will want to stay

I am equally sure that they will do the job very effectively and that the ONR will feel confident that, with its recruitment processes, it can provide the appropriate safeguarding regime to make sure that we meet IAEA standards by 29 March next year.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, who mentioned the requirement for information technology systems, which is always the other area that needs to be looked at. When we get to my amendment in the next Committee sitting, I will certainly come back on the points that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, raised about churn, as that is important. However, are we also confident that we will have information technology systems in place? What nature will they take, in a very broad sense? Will they be Excel spreadsheets or something more involved?

Climate-related Financial Disclosures

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my noble friend makes another point. If these impacts are going to be beneficial, there will be an even greater reason for companies to wish to list them in their financial disclosures. As I said in response to other questions, whether we make them mandatory is obviously a matter we want to consider in due course.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the City recently released an excellent report, Fifteen Steps to Green Finance. One of its recommendations was that the UK should set up a green finance standards board. That would enable this country to take that sector of the finance market and call it its own, set standards globally and make sure that issues such as greenwash did not undermine that concept. Will the Government take that on? Should they not do it urgently to make sure that we corner that market globally?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is something else we can consider. Quite a lot of task forces and other boards exist at the moment; the Question itself relates to the task force on climate change and financial disclosure, set up by the Bank of England, and there is our own green finance task force. There is also the consultation I referred to earlier—consultations seem to be coming out of our ears. But I will certainly look at what the noble Lord said; whether it is right to set up yet another body is another matter.

Flooding: Cornwall

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not accept the noble Lord’s first point. Environment Agency teams were out there before the floods happened, clearing out streams and culverts and doing all that they could to make sure that things were mitigated as far as possible. Sadly, the weather was so extreme that these measures were not able to cope with what happened. Something of the order of one and a half inches—that is 38.8 millimetres, if the noble Lord prefers that measure—of rain fell in one hour and, quite frankly, what was in place could not cope with that. I do not accept what the noble Lord said about cuts. We will be spending something of the order of £2.1 billion on flooding and coastal erosion over the next four years, which is only a very small reduction on the previous four years.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I echo the Minister’s congratulations to people in Cornwall. A couple of properties within a quarter of a mile of my house were under five feet of water. Given that Cornwall abuts the Atlantic, the south-westerlies and the fact that these occurrences will happen more frequently, will the Government undertake a dialogue with councils in the south-west, particularly in Cornwall, to put in place more permanent arrangements for dealing with these incidents in the future?

[Lord Henley]

I accept my noble friend’s point that these things are likely to happen more frequently as a result of climate change. We will continue to talk with local authorities and all others, which is why today we have made an announcement about our response to the Pitt review and the new approach that should be followed to deal with floods and the danger of floods. We will look at new approaches to allow more schemes to go ahead that will attract money not only from the Government, through the Environment Agency, but from all other sectors.

Energy: Large Combustion Plant Directive

Debate between Lord Henley and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot confirm the noble Lord’s figure; I would not accept that it will be as high as 25 per cent by 2015. I accept that a number of plants are so dirty in their emissions that they will have to close in due course, but I can confirm that other generating capacity is coming on stream in time to replace those that will close.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, does the Minister—my noble friend the Minister—

[Lord Teverson]

Absolutely. Does my noble friend agree that by the directive we reduce important pollution—sulphur dioxide and nitrous oxides—and that that is a good thing? When will the coalition Government bring forward the emission performance standards for power stations, which will also rid us of some of our carbon dioxide?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can confirm exactly what my noble friend said: by the directive, we will be reducing by quite large amounts the sulphur dioxide, the nitrogen oxides and the dust emissions which can be harmful to both human health and the environment. That can only be a good thing. As I said in answer to the first supplementary question, we also hope to have other capacity on stream to deal with the plants that are closing.