Water Fluoridation (Consultation) (England) Regulations 2022

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Grand Committee

Finally, references to “available scientific evidence” should be supplemented by attaching particular weight to the latest evidence and should specifically include international evidence. The Secretary of State should be required to list the evidence that has been taken into account and state what evidence has been discounted and for what reason. In the last few years, an increasing number of international peer-reviewed studies have highlighted the distinct correlation between water fluoridation and serious health ailments, particularly with regard to the developing foetus. We would be committing a disservice to the public if all the latest available research was not analysed effectively.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, although I do not agree with him; we debated this during the passage of the Health and Care Act through your Lordships’ House only a few months ago. I must declare that I am president of the British Fluoridation Society.

I have form, because I remember when I was secretary of the Edgware/Hendon Community Health Council in the mid-1970s, taking part in an extensive consultation exercise in the London Borough of Barnet when the then Government were encouraging the introduction of fluoridation. We had two very well attended meetings in the borough where there was a clear view in favour of fluoridating water. Unfortunately, virtually no progress has been made since then. That is why I am very glad that the Government have brought forward primary legislation, and I was very glad to hear what the Minister had to say about the intention to move ahead in the north-east. That is very encouraging and I hope that that will be the first of many such schemes.

It seems that the consultation progress that the Government have set out is entirely reasonable. We must remember that the principle is decided—it has been decided by primary legislation. The local consultations that will take place are not a reason for reopening arguments about the effectiveness of fluoridation; they are about the detailed proposals, making sure that the areas are covered correctly and that individuals can have a say about that. However, I have to say that I noted in paragraph 7.3 that in the consultation a higher weight is to be given to individuals affected by the proposals

“who reside or work in the area.”

I am sure that that is right, but I ask the Minister to agree that the highest weight has to be given to the statement by the Chief Medical Officers of all four UK countries last year that water fluoridation is both safe and effective as well as being the most cost-effective way to reduce inequalities in dental caries prevalence. That must be the principle that lies behind any consultation process. I wish these regulations all speed ahead and very much hope that the foundations for a second wave of fluoridation schemes can now be laid in the north-east.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to consequential SIs from the passage of the Health and Care Act. Some of those present will remember the long debates we had during the passage of that legislation, some of which the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has returned us to today.

I will start on water fluoridation. My points were actually about consultation, and I will return to those, but the noble Lord has a point: there are now scientific records to show that excess levels of fluoride do cause damage. There is a very good academic article entitled “Assessment of fluoride levels during pregnancy and its association with early adverse pregnancy outcomes”. It concludes that this happens mainly in developing countries where the level of fluoride is not managed. I echo the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, just made, that if the four Chief Medical Officers for the four countries of the United Kingdom believe that it is safe, that should be enough for us.

Of course all care must be taken and monitoring must continue, but the other point I want to make is from a dentist in Australia, who was very supportive of Australia’s move to fluoridation a while ago. He said that the region where he lives was one of the last to add fluoride. He talks about the experience of having to give very small children repeated anaesthetics and pain relief, and the effect on them. He says:

“Since fluoridation was introduced to Geelong in 2009, my colleagues are much happier, as severe dental abscesses requiring tricky anaesthetic techniques are much less common, and tend to mainly come from areas in the region which still aren’t fluoridated.”


He goes on to say:

“The other anecdote … was that one of my colleagues who had worked in Europe for a few years went away with 3 children under the age of 6, who were the same age and social demographic as our own children. When they returned … 2 of his 3 children had needed dental treatment”


under general anaesthetic. The key point is that they went to unfluoridated places. Although I hear the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Reay, I hope we can be reassured that everything we debated during the passage of the Health and Care Bill shows that this is being done very carefully.

During the passage of that Bill, my noble friend Lady Pinnock made a very important series of points about how to decide where to consult about fluoridation of water, given that we have so many reservoirs where water goes in lots of different directions. Often, you cannot identify each of those areas. Although it was good to hear the Minister talk about the way that consultation will happen, and it is good news that there has been broad consultation in the north-east and that there are some resources there, might the Minister comment on how it is possible for civil servants to identify the relevant areas for consultation? This was one of the reasons why we said during the passage of the Bill that there needed to be very broad consultation.

Moving on to the other statutory instrument on training on learning disabilities and autism, and on virginity testing and hymenoplasty, I signed both of those amendments during the Bill’s passage. Each time it came back I spoke to both of them. It was wonderful that the Government listened and accepted the amendments on training for health staff working with people with learning disabilities and autism. I know that this is only a technical amendment to remove the CQC, but this is a moment to thank the Government for listening to the concern of those of us who work with and know many in the learning disabled and the autistic communities, who have often found that they have been treated by people who do not understand their conditions, which makes it that much harder to communicate with them.

I will now move on to virginity testing and hymenoplasty—I welcome the Minister to the language that we have all had to learn. We were very pleased that the Government decided to support measures on this. I have one question for the Minister. He mentioned that this was about the suitability of foster parents or of their household. It is not clear how wide that household is regarded; is it literally the people who live in that house, or, as in other safeguarding issues, would it also include a member of the foster parents’ family who might be visiting that house on a regular basis and who, in any other safeguarding terms, would have to be notified? If the Minister cannot answer that today, I would completely understand, but I look forward to the answer because I have a particular interest in safeguarding. Apart from that, I support all three elements in front of us today.

Childhood Obesity

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, as the House will be aware, the tax on sugar in drinks has reduced consumption of sugar by 44%, so I totally agree with the sentiment. We have been successful in this. We are looking to improve in the area of sugary food, where we have managed to reduce some of that content by as much as 13%.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister seen the startling statistics showing the number of economically inactive people aged 50 and over, much of which is caused by ill health, with obesity thought to play a major role. Given that, why on earth do the Government need to fudge around and review? Why do they not get on with an assertive campaign to tackle obesity?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I do not believe that we are fudging around. Noble Lords will see some very firm action. If the noble Lord goes into the supermarkets today, he will see a very big difference in how you see the food. There are big changes. I totally agree on the importance of this. I was the lead NED of the DWP, so I know how many inactive people there are in the workforce and how much better it will be for them and the economy if we can get them active and into work. I completely agree with the sentiment and the action that we are taking to drive it forward.

NHS: Winter Challenges

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct that care is at the centre of all of this. The flow of patients through hospitals is vital, and we are all aware that 13% of all hospital beds are held up by people who should be discharged into care. The £500 million investment is all about freeing up those beds. That will ease the flow right the way through the system—right the way into A&E, so that people can be discharged straight into hospitals, and right back to ambulances being able to discharge into A&E. I completely agree with the noble Lord; that is the focus of what we are doing.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has talked about £500 million going in, but he knows that the efficiency savings target annualised is £12 billion. He also knows that unfunded inflationary pressures are estimated by NHS England to be £6 billion to £7 billion on top of this—and the Treasury is demanding further cuts in order to shore up its disastrous mini-Budget. Given that, how are the Government going to meet winter pressures, cut the Covid backlog and balance the books?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We are facing unprecedented challenges, as the noble Lord states. We also have unprecedented investment, a plan for patients which is focused on the key elements that will make a difference—ambulances, the backlog, care, and doctors and dentists—and a group of Ministers who are focused on making a difference where it really counts. We have record investment, and a record number of doctors, nurses and people ready to face those challenges.

Primary and Community Care: Improving Patient Outcomes

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord and to thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for his speech. I fully echo his desire to see a special Select Committee created; I hope that the Liaison Committee members present will take note of that.

The noble Lord said that primary care is the bedrock of our health service, and I agree. If it does not function effectively, the whole healthcare system suffers, and it is clearly suffering greatly at the moment. It is not just workforce shortages or the crumbling estate. A recent Civitas report made for sober reading. It ranked the performance of the UK healthcare system with that of 18 comparable countries and, lamentably, it placed the UK second to bottom across a series of major healthcare outcomes, including life expectancy and survival rates from cancer, strokes and heart attacks. Recently, the Health Foundation has drawn attention to the UK having an astonishingly low number of MRI machines and CT scanners: fewer per person, according to the OECD, than any other developed country. That is besides having fewer doctors and nurses than our north European neighbours and very poor uptake of new medicines.

We see England’s hospitals being caught in a vice. On the one hand, the race to work through the enormous backlog of care means an unceasing stream of new patients into fewer beds. On the other hand, a decade of flatlining, at best, funds for social care means that even when treatment is concluded, thousands of patients remain in hospital beds waiting for follow-up care. Emergency departments have no beds to send new arrivals to the wards, patients with urgent needs wait for hours on end, ambulances cannot hand over patients, and are stuck in a queue outside A&E. We have to see the inadequacies of primary care in this much wider context.

The pandemic has accelerated the move to online booking and phone consultations with general practitioners. That has made care quicker and easier for many people, and we should not ignore that. On the other hand, it has led to many other patients facing enormous difficulties in getting face-to-face access to their general practitioner. The NHS England stat last October which showed that over 15% of practices recorded less than 20% of their GP appointments being held face-to-face is very worrying indeed. Last month, Pulse magazine reported that 1.5 million patients had lost their GP in the last eight years after the closure of almost 500 practices. Recruitment issues were part of the problem but we should not ignore the issue of workload, inadequate premises and sheer morale issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, mentioned Dr Claire Fuller’s very interesting report to the NHS England CEO. She concluded that patient satisfaction with access to general practice is at an all-time low and described the 8 am Monday scramble for appointments as synonymous with huge patient frustrations. She said:

“left as it is, primary care … will become unsustainable in a relatively short period of time.”

We have all had evidence from the Royal College of GPs, which says that despite a government agreement to an increase of 6,000 in GPs, the number of fully qualified full-time equivalents has actually fallen by 1,622 between September 2015 and 2021. I mention again that I do not understand how the Government could have reduced the number of medical training places to 7,500 this year, following two years of there being about 10,500. It is amazing and extraordinary that the Government could have allowed that to happen. I had better declare my interest as a GMC member in that regard. The Health Foundation predicts that the shortage of GPs is set to become worse. It thinks that the current 4,200 shortfall will rise to more than 10,000 by the end of this decade.

Noble Lords have mentioned the recommendations of the Royal College of GPs: a new recruitment campaign, freeing up bureaucracy and investing in new technology—and I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on that. But that is really not sufficient to tackle the fundamental issues we face. Noble Lords may be aware of a recent report by your Lordships’ Public Services Committee which looked at public service workforce issues generally. The stark conclusion is that every part of the public sector has targets for recruitment and none of them will be met. There is a lack of realism in accepting that and starting to do the work that needs to be done when faced with these acute problems. Again, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on that.

We need a realistic conversation about what we can expect primary care to do in future. Most of the evidence we have received says basically that we need more GPs but assumes that we carry on with the same 1948 model of primary care. That is not sustainable at all. We must be realistic and start talking about why that can no longer be the way we go forward.

Dr Fuller’s report to the NHS CEO was interesting. She argued for the streaming of services, with access to care for people who get ill but use health services only infrequently, and a distinction between their needs and those of people who are chronically ill and need care, to know their GP and access to multidisciplinary support. That is the start of thinking more fundamentally about primary care in future.

We must ask ourselves about the role of gatekeeper. People are wedded to the idea of the GP as gatekeeper—or, let us be truthful, as rationer of services. But when we look at outcome figures for, say, cancer, we must ask whether the lack of direct access to specialist care is one of the reasons that our outcomes are so poor. I do not know whether that is true or not, but we certainly need to ask the question.

How can we increase GPs’ job satisfaction? We must do something to give them the confidence to carry on in primary care in a way in which they get job satisfaction. We have many overseas doctors coming to work in the hospital sector. Can we change some of the rules and understandings in primary care to enable them to work there as well?

Finally, is the organisational model fit for purpose? We know that many GPs no longer aspire to partnership. What ought to take the place of that? If we are moving to a salaried service, partly in the employ of private-sector providers, how can we ensure that those GPs are getting the support, professional leadership and confidence to wish to stay in the sector in future?

I look forward to the Minister’s response. We do not need a lot of statistics, which, frankly, is not the answer to the fundamental issues we face. If ever we needed a special Select Committee, this is it.

NHS: Access to Treatments

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve access to treatments for NHS patients.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

To improve access to treatment, the Government have committed to spend over £8 billion from 2022 to 2025, and this in addition to the £2 billion elective recovery fund and £700 million targeted investment fund made available last year. This funding is increasing capacity through community diagnostic centres and surgical hubs, supporting hospitals to prioritise treating the patients waiting longest, as well as accessing capacity via the independent sector. We are also making it easier for patients to choose treatment at different providers with shorter waiting times.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that access to the NHS, whether in primary care, the ambulance service, A&E or discharge, has become worse and worse. All the organisations that submitted evidence this week said that the core issue is workforce. I declare my interest as a member of the GMC. Can the Minister explain why has the number of medical training places this year been drastically reduced to 7,500 compared to 10,500 for last two years, and 9,500 in the pre-Covid year? The Medical Schools Council has said that we should have 14,500 medical places. How can the Minister justify 7,500?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

We are looking at a number of different things when it comes to doctors across the service. One is clearly opening new medical schools in areas which are underserved: sometimes we have doctors, but not in the right areas. We are also looking at overseas recruitment but, on the specific issues, we are having discussions—let us put it that way—on the cap. That is constantly being debated and I will take that back to the department.

Integrated Care Boards

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. The last I was aware of—and I shall look at it and write to my noble friend—was that, under the visa scheme, we were looking to bring in people from overseas to fill those vacancies. We have historically done that; as I said, after the war we looked to people from the Commonwealth, who came and saved our public services. Clearly, when we are unable to recruit enough people locally, we have to look at those issues and at whether it is something to do with the education system, and whether we can encourage them to come forward. But where there are gaps we will have to look more widely to our partners around the world.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, when the Minister took the Bill through the House, he argued that a restructuring was necessary to integrate services, yet outside every acute hospital dozens of ambulances are stacked up every day, often waiting for hours with patients inside, because we have a disintegrated system. Can he show me what the integrated care boards are doing today to end that dreadful practice?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

One priority of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State—I think he is still the Secretary of State—has been to look at the ambulance system. On a wall in his office, he has all the various things; he has talked to various partners and he has brought people together to see what the problems are, why we are unable to unload patients into hospitals, what the blockages are and how we can address this from a systemic view.

Coronavirus: New Cases

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a very important point: we have to continue with the living with Covid strategy, and keep an eye on the Covid cases, but also be aware that we need to clear the backlog, and that people have missed appointments. One of the things we are doing is looking more at diagnostics. Many noble Lords will be aware that about 80% of the waiting list is people waiting for diagnosis. Of those waiting for surgery, about 80% of them do not need to stay overnight in hospital. We want to make sure that we get the right balance between monitoring what is going on with Covid and at the same time clearing the backlog.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord just talked about clearing the backlog. He said earlier that the incidence rise is now leading to increased hospitalisations. What impact is that having on the backlog?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I asked that very same question when I had the briefing with UKHSA officials earlier, and they said they are still focusing on the backlog. If it gets to a point where it is affecting the backlog, clearly measures may well have to be introduced.

Thyroid Patients: Liothyronine

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to prevent Clinical Commissioning Groups denying thyroid patients access to the drug liothyronine (T3) for the treatment of hypothyroidism.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

My Lords, I am still here. While levothyroxine is the first-line treatment for hypothyroidism, guidance published by NHS England is already clear that prescribing liothyronine is clinically appropriate for individual patients who may not respond to levothyroxine alone. NHS England is currently reviewing its guidance. As part of the engagement exercise, patient groups and other key stakeholders have been contacted to provide feedback and will be involved in this refresh.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am relieved that the noble Lord is still here to answer this Question. I am grateful for what he said, but he will know that, for a certain group of patients, T3 is highly effective and much more effective than the normal medication that is given. There was a huge price hike a few years ago, and as a result the NHS restricted access; the price has come down, but, unfortunately, access is still restricted. In some parts of the country, patients cannot get prescribed it. Will the noble Lord, rather than relying on advisers, intervene and tell the NHS to stop this postcode lottery?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

NHS England is currently consulting on this revision, for much the same reasons that the noble Lord acknowledges. At the moment, liothyronine is a second-line treatment when the other one cannot be used or is not appropriate. At a local level, doctors should be advised that they are able to prescribe it. Clearly, that is not getting through. When we went to NHS England with this, it recognised this and said that there will be a consultation.

Pharmacy (Responsible Pharmacists, Superintendent Pharmacists etc.) Order 2022

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

At end insert “but that this House regrets that the Order does not make provision about the wider workforce challenges facing the community pharmacy sector”.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I certainly have no objection to this statutory instrument, which, as the Minister said, requires a strengthening of the governance that relates to superintendent and responsible pharmacists. My complaint is that this could have been so much more. My principal purpose in tabling my amendment and allowing us to debate this is to talk about the potential of community pharmacy and my frustration that the Government are doing so little to support the sector. I find that quite extraordinary.

As the Minister said, the NHS is going through an incredibly tough time. We have a huge backlog of patients waiting for treatment, workforce pressures, scary ambulance waiting times, and there is a real sense of demoralisation in primary care. You would think that the Government would have welcomed with open arms the contribution that community pharmacy can make. Instead, however, it seems that the sector continues to be undervalued and starved of investment.

--- Later in debate ---

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Of course I have sympathy with the issues that he has raised. Strictly speaking, they are not matters that can be addressed by the legislation before your Lordships’ House today, so while I understand the frustrations, I do not support the noble Lord’s amendment. I thank Members for their interest and for the positive debate today and I commend the order to the House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and to the Minister. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, was right to raise the concerns of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. I was reassured by the briefing we had from the General Pharmaceutical Council. Clearly, it is something we need to keep a watch on.

As far as timelines are concerned—and I declare an interest as a member of the GMC—the Minister will be aware that there is a huge backlog of regulatory instruments that need to come forward to make changes to the regulatory system. I hope he will be able to give a great deal more priority to this issue over the next few months.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned dispensing doctors. Noble Lords will perhaps not be unaware that there is sometimes a tension between community pharmacists and dispensing doctors, but that does not mean that dispensing doctors do not have a valuable role to play in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Grade, made important points about closures and funding. I do not know whether anyone really understands how community pharmacy is funded. It is certainly a very complex situation, which in four years as the Minister responsible I am not sure I ever quite discovered. The noble Lord raised a substantive point there.

I was glad to have support from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. She spoke well about the fact that community pharmacies had to step up because access in other parts of primary care has become so difficult. My noble friend Lady Wheeler made an important point about minor ailment services and savings that could accrue to the NHS if community pharmacy were used more.

I was grateful for the Minister’s response. He painted the picture that in actual terms you could say the health service has more staff, but he will know that respected think tanks and analysts have been saying for many years now that, because of the nature of healthcare and demographic changes, we have to run very much faster to meet the new demands. That is where the problem arises in community pharmacy. The Minister will not be surprised that, because of the long-term challenges, many noble Lords in this House regret that the Government did not accept this House’s recommendation that we have a proper long-term workforce strategy which is funded to try to forecast and deal with those issues.

On the substantive issue of community pharmacy, it faces many challenges. Many community pharmacy businesses are facing a viability situation. I do not think that the current contract the Minister talked about is really doing what it needs to. I am hopeful about the talks that he mentioned and potential agreement in the future, but at the moment I doubt that the Government are really going to come up with the goods. It is a tragedy because here is a profession and a sector which could do so much more at a time of huge pressure. It needs to be given the wherewithal to do it. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Vaccinations

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what lessons they have learned from the high uptake of Covid-19 vaccinations in the United Kingdom; and what plans they have, if any, to apply similar strategies to increase vaccination rates for other conditions, such as shingles or influenza.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

We have seen high levels of Covid-19 vaccine uptake by being flexible and innovative in how we get vaccinations into patients’ arms and being supported by strong national and targeted communications and community-led initiatives. We have sought to learn lessons from the rollout and the NHS is working collaboratively with partners to design future NHS vaccination services for Covid-19 vaccines and other vaccination and immunisation programmes, considering how we can better use data to improve access to information.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister. One of lessons of the pandemic was that flu vaccines were given free to people aged between 50 and 64. The Government have said that from next autumn people will have to pay. The Minister will be aware that vaccination rates around the world, particularly in Australia, have increased dramatically. Will he reconsider this policy, given that we need to encourage that age group to have the vaccine?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; we have received advice on the flu vaccine and at the moment it is free to those aged 65 and over. The issue, frankly, is balancing resources. A number of people in the system are saying that if you keep mandating vaccines, it means they cannot get on with tackling the elective backlog. On balance, at the moment it seems better to focus on the elective backlog, but UKHSA and others are monitoring the situation very closely.