Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Friday 27th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

These are difficult issues, but the panel is being asked to authorise their death, so this is a serious issue. I accept that this is uncomfortable, and I am not suggesting the entire panel would rock up at their home, but at least one member of the panel ought to have to talk to them. The idea that the panel would authorise somebody to have an assisted death, never having spoken to them, is frankly appalling.

I shall just finish, because I want to stick to time—although I am conscious that the noble and learned Lord nicked a bit of it to explain to the Committee. I shall finish by saying that the amendments that have been put down are very helpful, because we have fleshed out this very sensible issue of how much of this should take place in public.

The other reason for it being in public is because, otherwise, there are two groups of people the panel is asked to talk to. It may hear from and question any other person and may ask any person appearing to have relevant knowledge. The problem is that, if these hearings are done in private and no one knows they are happening, I do not know how the panel is supposed to know who any of these people are; these people are not going to be able to make themselves known to the panel. So there is a clear argument about where you draw the line and there is clearly a balance to strike between openness, transparency and privacy, but it seems to me that this is a good debate for the Committee, and I want to hear where the Bill’s proposer thinks that balance should be struck. We have heard a little bit about that, and we can hear a little more later.

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

I am conscious of the time; it is now nearly quarter to six. So, it quite clear that this debate is not going to finish tonight and we are going to have to adjourn mid-group. This is absolutely fine, but we will take the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and maybe one other contribution. Then we will probably have to adjourn mid-group.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I have tabled a handful of amendments, a couple to Clause 17 and then some more to Schedule 2. It is perfectly acceptable for the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, to be appalled by some of these amendments. That is okay: that is her perception; that is her reality. It may not be what my noble friend intended, but we are dealing with a serious situation.

Noble Lords have talked about finding somebody dead. Of course, it would be devastating if the family around them had not known that somebody was thinking that the only way life could get better was if they did not have a life at all. That is the reason for some of the aspects about bereavement services and connection to next of kin, so that there is that contact to see whether somebody who is in a very dark place is terminally ill or doctors have suggested that they have less than six months to live. An interesting area that we are discussing is about the tipping point for somebody to choose to accelerate that, to take that poison, and for the state to help them do it without being in touch with the next of kin. I know there are other groups where we get into that in more detail, but this is why it has become so sensitive.

I held my mother’s hand as she died. She had less than a month to live, and we looked after her. My dad died while I was on a plane, and I found out when I landed at Heathrow Airport. That is why I cannot watch the end of “Love Actually” because it is everybody meeting their families. It is the most I have ever cried in my life, and I have to switch off the film before the end. These are very significant moments.

I am conscious of what noble Lords have said about whether this should be in public. I think on balance it should be in public because we are having this effectively quasi-judicial process, which is at the end of a line, to some extent, making sure that somebody is doing this of their own volition and is not being coerced. That is why all the different safeguards are suggested.

I have tabled Amendment 480A—I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord will, perhaps next time, speak to his Amendment 480—which refers to how the panel will operate. I believe that an audio link is not enough in terms of discussions with the co-ordinating doctor, the person doing it and, indeed, the person’s proxy. In person or by live video would be good. I have tabled Amendment 483C to amend subsection (5), which currently provides:

“Where the panel considers it appropriate for medical reasons, it may make provision for the use of pre-recorded audio or video material for the purposes of subsection (4)”.


I can completely understand that, but I can understand it only for the person applying. I do not understand why the co-ordinating doctor would not be available to go in person or on a videolink in order to have that interaction with the panel. I have chosen to put that amendment in at that point.

The panel is an important part and that is why it is vital to get to the bottom of Schedule 2. Another noble friend asked me to ask the sponsoring Member whether there would be immunity from suit for the panel members, but I want to get into a few amendments that I have tabled. I am trying to work out how this is all going to work. I see this panel very rarely meeting in person, and I can see it evolving quite quickly. It will all be done by Zoom or Teams, and that concerns me. If the intention is that this is going to be available effectively probably 365 days a year, I am trying to get a sense of how this is going to work.

I appreciate that the Government will not want to answer that; they say they have not done the thinking, but somebody has done the thinking, because this is what the legislation is about. We now have, in parts of Schedule 2, panel members even starting to ask whether they can have pension contributions. Who is going to be doing these roles? Is it going to become a full-time job? It is one of the reasons I put a suggestion—it is just a number—of a maximum of 25 years for panels. I do not know if that is a panel per day, whether multiple people will be in a panel, or whether it is a one-off panel. I think the Law Society, in its written evidence to the Commons, suggested that it should take a day per panel, per application. The Government have costed in an estimate, in their equality impact assessment, of two hours. I am trying to get a sense of who is going to be doing this.

I have not tabled an amendment about this, but will there be a register about who is there? I do not want this to become a thing for, dare I say, vigilantes to try to intimidate people, but there is a question about how we do some of the vetting—I will not repeat what my noble friend said earlier. I am also genuinely concerned that we are going to give this an international element. I do not mean the person applying, necessarily—we covered that some time ago—but the people on the panel. That is why I have put things like a judge in England and Wales. You can be a King’s Counsel and be in Canada or Australia, where there are all these other things, and in law at the moment that does not stop it being the case. People might think I am overimagining things, but I am trying to be precise about what the law allows and trying to understand how it might work. If I am wrong, fine: I am happy for it to be said in Committee that that is not going to apply, but I want it to be said in Committee, so that if anything does evolve like that, we can start the judicial reviews to stop that practice.

I have suggested in Amendment 921ZB that it should not be King’s Counsel. That was inspired by the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, in his Second Reading speech. It made me think a little more. I am not trying to do this so that hardly anyone can do this role. What I am trying to ask is why we talk about high judicial office being needed. A pretty high-level judge or a KC, without being too rude to KCs, is not exactly the same comparison. There are plenty of other judges—deputy court judges or district judges—who are all regularly used to having this arbitration or tribunal approach, so I do not understand why we have limited it to being that or a KC.

As for Amendment 932A, I do not see why the lawyer is the person who has to chair it. This happens quite a lot in decision-making bodies in government: things just evolve. The reason why the local resilience forum in Buckinghamshire is actually across Bucks, Oxon and Berks, it so happens, is by default, not in law but in practice. The chief constable is always Gold Command—it is always the police that run it—therefore, what has happened over time and practice is that the LRF is across those three counties automatically. These sorts of things start to become habits; they start to become the way it is done and it cannot be changed, so I just want to be clear. I do not in any way understand why the lawyer should be making the decision as the chair of the panel. I do not understand why it should be the legal person who gets to determine whether the sitting should be in private. I think that is an unnecessary addition.

I would prefer the panel to be in public, but I completely understand the sensitivity, so the impact of my Amendment 933A is designed to be that they can sit in private but only for the part that directly involves the applicant. The reason for that is sensitivity to people at a very difficult time in their lives, but I do not understand why that should also apply to all the other people who have been involved at some point. Why should their interactions with the panel need to be in private? When people go behind closed doors, we start to get a lack of understanding of what is being said and of patterns. That is why, later in the Bill, I will mention other protections that I want to see. I am conscious or concerned about being a panel member effectively becoming a full-time job. That would be a bad step in this regard.

There are many other amendments that I would love to talk to, but I am conscious of the time. This is a really important moment in considering how this final safeguard will work in practice. Is it what we were expecting when the Bill arrived in this House?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Clerk of the Parliaments has confirmed to me that the clerks have recorded the names of every noble Lord who was here at the start of this debate. They will be circulated to the Chief Whips, including me, and the Convenor of the Cross Benches next week.

Debate on Amendment 142 adjourned.