Scotland: Devolution

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market (Con)]

My Lords, I am hugely relieved by the clear decision of the Scottish voters against independence. The consequences if the vote had gone the other way would have been severe indeed for the Scottish economy, but also for the rest of the UK in terms of the economic implications, currency, the division of assets and liabilities, debt, defence, the EU and international bodies and the need to tackle all these issues when we have so many other issues to deal with, not least the continuation of the economic recovery. It would have been severely disruptive and difficult.

We must all confine ourselves to a small number of issues, and I wish to concentrate on two: English votes for English laws, and issues around tax and expenditure, including the Barnett formula. As the Prime Minister, the Government and my noble friend on the Front Bench today have made clear, this is fundamentally a question of fairness. It has nothing to do with “morally wrong”. What is morally wrong about fairness? Frankly, we all know that it is not about morals; it is purely about politics. I believe that that is a very important point.

I shall speak first about English votes for English laws. I have just looked up the Hansard of one of the earlier debates that we had in the House of Commons on devolution shortly after I entered Parliament in 1974, a Scot representing an English constituency. It was in January 1976 on the then Labour Government’s proposals for devolution in Scotland and Wales. A number of colleagues who are now in your Lordships’ House spoke then, and it is interesting to see how many of the points made then are still fresh today. I shall give just one quote from my own speech. I said then:

“Although I accept the list of subjects which”,

the Government,

“have put forward for devolution to the Scottish Assembly … it seems that there will be a growing demand, which is right in logic and fairness, for the same devolution to be given to England. That is a demand that must grow. We have already seen much evidence of that during this debate … There is the feeling that the Scottish people will have a power over the subjects that are devolved to them that is almost total and complete … whereas Scottish Members will be totally involved at Westminster in the discussion of issues that affect England”.

I went on to suggest two possible solutions, and concluded:

“Let us remember that the English also have their rights”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/1/76; cols. 676-77.]

Tam Dalyell was listening intently throughout that debate and henceforward argued constantly about what became known as the West Lothian question. It must be solved now. We surely cannot continue with a situation in which a Scottish Parliament can have total control over health, education and so many other crucial issues in Scotland—transport, et cetera—while in England, Scottish MPs can continue to vote, sometimes conceivably having the crucial deciding votes, on these same issues in England. It is relevant in this context to note that the Scottish population is 5.2 million while the English population is 53.1 million. In a vote where the Scottish MPs voting on a purely English matter could be crucial, what is fair in that for the 53 million?

I believe that the solution to this lies in the proposal for the Speaker to be able to denote a bill in the UK Parliament as an English Bill and that only English MPs would be able finally to vote on that matter.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

The noble Lord is discussing a very interesting point. Would it be fair to characterise it as a UDI for England approach, although he might not like that phrase? Would that make UDI for Scotland less likely or more likely?

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market]

It is really quite simple. If the Scottish people have Scottish issues, as delineated now, voted upon entirely in the Scottish Parliament, then the same ought to apply to purely English issues in the English Parliament, and it should be English Members of Parliament who should vote on them.

I entirely agree with the Leader of the House in the other place when he said:

“We must establish the principle that when this House makes decisions affecting only the people of England, or only the people of England and Wales, those decisions should be made only by, or with the consent of, the MPs elected to represent them”.— [Official Report, Commons, 14/10/14; col. 176.]

It is high time that we did this.

I turn now to tax and spending, both complex and crucial issues. I have just a few quick points. I hope that we can soon have a full debate on all this. First, there are good arguments in favour of more devolution of various tax measures, provided that tax and spending are taken together. In principle, having the possibility to raise or lower taxes, while at the same time recognising that there are spending consequences, is attractive. Borrowing limitations must also be taken into account, as should the consequences for UK tax revenues.

Secondly, what cannot be accepted is the freedom to lower taxes and decrease revenue, with the expectation of consequential upward adjustments in the block grant from the UK Exchequer at the same time.

Thirdly, this raises the whole question of the block grant and the Barnett formula. I well remember the discussions on the Barnett formula in 1976, when the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, was under great pressure to reach conclusions on the expenditure settlement. He has said that, because of that pressure, he had to find a solution to one particular part of the expenditure arrangements and that it was a temporary expedient, never expected to last; he is strongly opposed to its continuation. There is a strong feeling in the country—I have long felt this in East Anglia—that the formula is unduly favourable to Scotland. Current figures show that public expenditure per head in East Anglia, where I come from, is £7,865, in England £8,529 and in Scotland £10,152. I believe that this issue must be addressed.

Fourthly, many have argued that the formula should be adjusted to a needs basis. I have long argued that myself. A committee of this House reporting in 2009 argued that,

“the Barnett Formula should no longer be used to determine annual increases in the block grant for the United Kingdom’s devolved administrations … A new system which allocates resources to the devolved administrations based on an explicit assessment of their relative needs should be introduced”.

I actively believe that this should be introduced and that there should be a transitional arrangement.

In conclusion, I believe that this must all be tackled in the negotiations and that the Barnett formula should go at last. This will be a critical part of the negotiations; I hope that this House will have another opportunity to debate it before they are completed.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord who has just spoken, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on his profound and perceptive opening speech. I have spoken in this Chamber about the difficulties that I believe any independent Scottish Government would face in trying to create a credible Scottish defence force by plucking out assorted assets and personnel from the closely integrated British armed services. The military covenant, whose key principles have now been enshrined in law, states that the first duty of Government is the defence of the realm, and I wish to concentrate today on the implications for the safety of the whole of the United Kingdom if Scotland chose to become a separate country in the referendum next September.

The recent report of the House of Commons Defence Committee concluded that such a momentous change would result in the remainder of the UK,

“facing the loss of vital personnel, bases and equipment, representing as much as one twelfth of current assets”.

There would be, it warned, a consequent loss of capacity, particularly in the short term. The committee reached the alarming conclusion that the level of safety and defence currently enjoyed by the whole of the United Kingdom,

“is higher than that which could be provided by the Governments of a separate Scotland and the remainder of the UK”.

At the heart of the negotiations after a yes vote in the referendum would be the future of the United Kingdom’s Trident nuclear deterrent, as touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. The SNP is determined to banish those submarines from Scotland’s shores while at the same time seeking the protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which is a nuclear-based alliance. In contrast, the Defence Committee reported that Scottish independence on those terms poses a serious threat to the future operational viability of the UK’s nuclear deterrent. The UK Government have made it clear that the horrendous cost of repositioning the nuclear armed submarines would impact financially on the whole of the United Kingdom. Giving evidence to the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, Professor William Walker of St Andrews University said that the creation of a new deep-water facility outside Scotland could take at least 20 years. In what I sincerely hope will be the unlikely event of a yes vote, there is clearly substantial scope for this subject rapidly to become one of the most divisive and hotly disputed issues in any negotiations between an independent Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

My Lords, I look forward to the noble Lord making his own contribution later if there is time.

Unfortunately there is not sufficient time to talk about all the implications for the UK of setting up a separate Scottish state. I will, however, deal with one: the possible creation of passport controls on some 21 roads that cross the border. The Scottish National Party insists that such a situation would not arise but no UK Government could fail to act if an SNP Administration in Edinburgh relaxed immigration checks to such an extent that Scotland became a back-door entry to the remainder of the UK. We can well imagine the economic impact and the sheer time-consuming inconvenience for travellers.

Evolution is a natural process and dismemberment is not. The Calman Commission, on which I served, had representation from Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, and produced a unanimous report proposing further devolution within the United Kingdom, which has been largely implemented. It represented an evolutionary development. Whatever the SNP would have us believe, the total separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK would represent a severing of one of the most successful political, economic and social unions in the world which has endured for more than 300 years. I fear that this dismemberment would produce nothing but frustration and friction in our common island home.

While the United Kingdom is able to make the best use of finite resources, its disintegration would in all likelihood unpick all the economic integration steadily built up over three centuries. On the international scene, the UK’s coveted place on the UN Security Council and our seat at the top tables in the world’s economic forums could be in doubt and our capability to promote democracy and the rule of law around the globe sadly diminished.

Outward-looking patriotism is not to be confused with inward-looking nationalism. Patriots can love their country and yet be happy to see it as part of a larger entity which can continue to do a great deal of good in the world. I am a Scottish patriot as well as being a British patriot and I wish to continue to be proud of both.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Monks. My reason for doing so is the hope that, in his response, the Minister will spell out clearly the duties of the trade union assurer, particularly—a point made by my noble friend Lord Monks—the duties of confidentiality.

Confidentiality is of the utmost importance. We have all read about the blacklist constructed by the consulting association. It is a subversive list which can damage the individual both financially and in terms of their reputation. I have read nothing in the Bill, and have heard nothing at Second Reading or anywhere else, which gives any protection at all to the possible victims of this new office of assurer. I ask myself why the trade union is a target, because it has much less information than, say, the CBI, the IoD or the Federation of Small Businesses. Those organisations have information which is relevant to the whole notion of behaviour within the context of the workplace. Now, however, the trade unions are at the sharp end.

I will not rehearse here the names of the consulting association; I do not want to pollute the debate. If the organisations involved were not in the category of trade unions or any other membership association, I suspect that the consulting association’s behaviour would be the subject of criminal investigation. However, that is not a matter which we decide here. What we decide here is how to ensure that the new office carries with it the responsibility and obligation which it owes to the people who can be impacted by its decisions. The assurer’s task will be an onerous one, in so far as it relies on the co-operation not just of individual trade unions but of employers. I therefore hope that when the Minister replies he will make absolutely clear that this particular office carries with it the highest notion of responsibility because it has the propensity to ruin so many lives and so many reputations. For those reasons I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

The whole philosophy of Part 3 seems quite astonishingly inequitable between what you might call the TUC family on one side of industry and the CBI or the employers’ associations on the other. Now, the counterpart to a trade union—as set down by the famous Donovan royal commission in 1965-68—is an employers’ association, but it has no responsibilities, no obligations of transparency or membership finances or anything else. So this is a purely political measure. It was no doubt agreed by the quad over the heads of people in the department of business, but we are never going to be told that. This is going to be another trophy on the mantelpiece of the Conservative Party and other people will have their attention drawn to this trophy on that mantelpiece in due course.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I had not intended to say anything but I have listened with care and sympathy to what has been said. I hope that when my noble friend comes to reply he will be able to give at least some of the assurances which have been sought by the noble Lords, Lord Morris, Lord Monks and Lord Lea of Crondall. Every man or woman is entitled to privacy. It is more and more difficult in this modern age for them to have it but it is something we all cherish and prize. No one should be put into a position where it is in jeopardy. What has been said by the noble Lords on the other side during this very brief debate has convinced me that there is at least a case to answer and I very much hope that my noble friend, for whom I have very real regard, will be able to give at least some of the assurances that have been sought when he replies to this debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I think the word that my noble friend Lord Whitty could not quite conjure up, because it is not often used in this House, is hypocrisy, and it has to do with red tape. My noble friend Lord Monks reminded us that, not only because of Christmas and the new year but also because of the pause, we are between Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, and now are dealing with Part 3. It is all rather confusing. There is overkill of all these lists of people who have some sort of role. We mentioned the electoral roll and how 80% might be up to date. I think that 50% would be a very good score for a candidate examined on this set-up even when it has been a year in use. It is quite remarkable. I will not go through the whole list.

It reminds us of the point made by a number of colleagues at Second Reading to do with the famous impact assessment and the enormous costs falling on the trade unions and many other people as well, which requires some justification. In particular, some justification is required of a Government whose raison d’être seems at some times to be to cut out red tape. If this is not red tape, what is it? The Government are clearly are going to be obstinate and will stick to their guns, whether the bowling is fast bowling, a googly or whatever else. We know that they have been taken over by dogma on everything to do with industrial relations.

Finally, I have here the report about which my noble friend Lord Monks and I have had a conversation. We asked people in the international departments of European countries to tell us, in answer to a questionnaire, what goes on in these successful democratic countries on these sorts of questions. No one remotely has a top-heavy superstructure such as this. I have little doubt that the only reason why a Labour Government might not repeal this on day one is that they would have very much bigger fish to fry, no doubt, in some respects.

I have little doubt that the life of this legislation will be very short, which is the only saving grace I can think of to mention in support of my noble friend Lord Whitty on this amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, it is interesting that the questions we are left with keep coming back and keep being unanswered. What is the serious public policy issue behind this proposal? What exactly is the problem? What will this Bill achieve that current legislation does not achieve? Will the measures being proposed do more than simply increase the regulatory burdens on trade unions? We have all those questions and very few answers.

We know that union membership is already regulated by the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act. Section 24(1) puts a duty on unions to maintain an up-to-date register of members’ names and addresses so far as reasonably practicable. This legislation has stood the test of time since the days of Mrs Thatcher. As has been said already, we are not aware of any calls having been made to the Government to extend this provision. BIS, the certification officer and ACAS have confirmed under freedom of information requests that they have received no representations for such a measure.

As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, it may be that a better self-certification system could be an advantage. I say “it may be” because we do not know what the problem is but cloaking the issue in some spurious idea that there is some public concern out there that would be remedied by having an additional checking arrangement is simply not sufficient.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I turn to two amendments which seek to drastically reduce the effect and extent of the provisions as drafted. This would in practice undermine the Government’s key policy objective, which is to introduce a proportionate and effective reporting and enforcement mechanism alongside the existing duty of unions to maintain an up-to-date membership register so far as is reasonably practicable.

Amendment 29 would remove Clause 37 and the role of the independent assurer from the Bill altogether. Clause 37 gives credibility to the assurance process by requiring independent scrutiny, which is in line with the Government’s overarching aim to provide greater assurance of the maintenance of trade union membership registers for the benefit of members, employers and, importantly, the wider public. As some unions become large organisations representing members across a variety of employers and workplaces, their administrative requirements become more complex. As a consequence of the prevalence of very large unions in recent years, there is also now an increased public perception of a union’s scope of influence.

This may be an appropriate moment for me to restate what I said in Committee: I am not minded to comment on the media coverage of particular industrial disputes, such as the Grangemouth refinery or, more recently, the issue affecting Howdens. Instead, as I should, I will focus on the separate issue at hand relating to the obligation of unions to maintain up-to-date membership registers. Perhaps this can also be described as playing a straight bat. I hope so.

The nature of union membership data means that they decay easily—for example, addresses can quickly become out of date. About 2 million people move in and out of union membership every year, which equates to around one in four union members. The register for a union which has a 25% turnover in membership could theoretically be entirely out of date in four years. Unions are already required by statute to maintain a register of the names and addresses of their members. What we are introducing is annual reporting on the compliance of unions with this duty where currently there is none. I believe—

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. This must be about the fourth time that he has said that, on the one hand, of course there is “churn”, as the word is now fashionably used, in trade union membership—20% or something like that. That is where I suggest the figure of 80% comes from; there is always churn going on. There is then a huge leap of logic, and the word “proportionate” in this context strikes me as astonishing. It is straight out of Alice in Wonderland—words mean what I say they mean, no more and no less. It cannot be proportionate to say that, because of churn, there is only 80% accuracy at any moment in time, therefore we will make it accurate by saying we will make it more accurate because we will have inspectors running around the country making it accurate. They will not make it accurate. In terms of what we have described as the problem with churn, how can they make it accurate? So the punishment will not fit the crime, even if there were a crime in the first place. Can the Minister give a more reasonable justification for an extraordinary lack of logic in his pronouncements?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the reasoning behind this is simply to look at the bigger picture in relation to unions. The noble Lord, Lord Lea, needs to be reminded that unions with 10,000 members or fewer will be self-certificating. We are looking at those unions which have large membership lists. Many colleagues of the noble Lord—certainly in Committee—acknowledged that it is a challenge to keep membership lists up to date. This is why—in a very light-touch way—we are bringing in an assurer so that we can be sure that the lists are up to date, so far as is reasonably practicable.

I believe that the membership audit certificate will be credible for larger unions only if it is independent, and this is because larger unions often represent workers across a range of different job types and employers. They have complicated branch structures—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Lea, would agree with that. They often have different IT systems and there may be greater time delays for updating information. A union official or rep would not, therefore, have the same credibility as an independent expert in ensuring that the systems used across the entire union are fit for purpose. This is the essence of what we are aiming to do. That may also be helpful in response to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.

Clause 37 requires trade unions with more than 10,000 members to appoint a qualified, independent person, called an assurer, who has a duty to provide an annual membership audit certificate to the union. The membership audit certificate must state whether, in the opinion of the assurer, the union’s system—and please note this word “system”—for compiling and maintaining the register is satisfactory to comply with the duties in Section 24. This is analogous with the regime in place for financial reporting, where all unions are required to appoint an independent auditor to approve their accounts. An assurer has the right to access the membership register and other relevant documents at all reasonable times, and to require information and explanations from the union. This is necessary for the assurers to be able to meet their duties and carry out their functions. However, as I mentioned in a previous debate, they will be subject to the obligations of the Data Protection Act when handling union membership data.

The assurer may request access only to documents which may be relevant to the union’s duties in Section 24. At the outset, when the assurer is appointed, the union and the assurer could agree terms as to the relevant documents to which the assurer should have access. If, after making inquiries, the assurer’s opinion is that the union’s system for maintaining the register is not satisfactory, or the assurer is unable to obtain the information necessary to provide the certificate, they must state this on the certificate and give reasons for doing so. If the certificate is not satisfactory, the assurer is required to send it to the certification officer as soon as is reasonably practicable but after submitting it to the union. Again, as part of the contractual arrangements, it would be possible for the union and the assurer to agree that the assurer must alert the union of any possible issues before the certificate is finalised.

Succession to the Crown Bill

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

I do not believe that that would be the case. Of course, it is up to your Lordships’ House to reach a decision on the amendment should the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, press it.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, is it not the case that when the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford made his statement previously, one or two of us asked whether that could somehow be put on the record in a more secure form? Is this not exactly the sort of way in which it could be put on record? Surely that sort of gloss, understanding or undertaking—however one wants to express it—by the Roman Catholic Church is worth more than an amendment, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will perhaps consider that to be the case.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend Lord Cormack will think again about this amendment. It is a very difficult situation—we are where we are—but if you read the Act of Succession, you see words which none of us in this House would like to see applied today to Her Majesty’s Roman Catholic subjects, all of whom pray for Her Majesty every Sunday and every Mass. It is very difficult for us to take what is a piece of rampant discrimination. Frankly, for many of us, particularly the ex-Anglicans, the whole concept of a secular monarch being Supreme Governor of the Church of England is very odd, but we are where we are.

I merely ask my noble friend not to rub this in by adding yet more to it. Let us accept that both sides have come to what is an uneasy compromise in a world which thinks utterly differently. If you read the Act of Settlement, you have to wonder what the rest of the world must think about us tinkering with something that frankly ought not to be part of the constitution of the United Kingdom because it does not have anything to do with our view about equality and difference in a society such as ours. It is because of our history and we understand that and do not want to raise that, but please let us accept where the Government are.

I urge my noble friend not to press this. It is bad enough anyway. This merely makes it worse, and it would be helpful for my noble friend to recognise the degree of reticence on the Roman Catholic side on this issue, for many years and again now. Following the great wisdom that we have heard from the right reverend Prelate, this seems to be the moment to let it lie and to withdraw this amendment.

Succession to the Crown Bill

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, my intervention will be exceptionally brief. I speak as a lifelong member of the Methodist Church who attends an Anglican Church at present. A useful and helpful concordat has been developed to achieve increasing collaboration between the Anglican and Methodist Churches. Is it totally out of the question that someone brought up as a Methodist might not ultimately become the Governor of the Anglican Church? I do not believe that it is. This is one of my concerns about this very interesting amendment, so very well proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. I would love to have an answer to that question.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, like others, I am interested to see how much clarification emerges from consideration of this amendment. I was very interested to hear of the policy shifts in the Roman Catholic Church. I was not aware how far they had gone. I very much welcome the fact that Anglicans and Roman Catholics can agree on the line described by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford, so I will not support the amendment.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment; it goes in the right direction. It may not be perfectly worded, but the principle is right.