Gypsies, Travellers and Roma: Racism and Discrimination

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 25th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am very happy to meet with the noble Lord.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted by the answers my noble friend has given, but will he make it clear that, when the police Bill eventually leaves this House, its provisions will fully support the continued flourishing and existence of Gypsy and Traveller communities?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, any measures introduced, including those in the Bill, would be undertaken in compliance with equality and human rights legislation.

Levelling Up

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that it is entirely fair to categorise an area with poor transport infrastructure by reference to the speed and distance travelled in a Bentley. The focus of this fund is to deal with the challenges that we have around the need for greater connectivity, and it is those projects that will be funded.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the superb structuring of this fund: the insistence on collaboration; the way in which councils and MPs are involved; and, in particular, the seeking of support from civil society in all its forms. In the context of Eastbourne, this has produced a ferment of ideas and enthusiasm which will do us a great deal of good going into the future. But as a seaside town whose income has been wiped out by Covid and which is staying solvent only by the grace of my noble friend’s department, how are we allowed to fund our 10% share of the bid that is asked for? If we bid now for phase 1 of our regeneration, can we include 5% or so of our bid to finance the feasibility study for phase 2? For that, we ought to have widespread public consultation and consideration of alternatives to give our larger plans a firm base, but in our current financial state we do not have the revenue out of which to take that funding.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend will be delighted that Eastbourne is within category 1 in terms of being prioritised within the index of places. That means that Eastbourne and its council can draw on support, where there is an absence of capacity or perhaps not enough funding available, of up to £125,000 for the preparation of the bid. I point out that councils are merely encouraged to put some of their own resources towards the bid funding; it is not necessarily a prerequisite. In the case of Eastbourne, the Government are providing that funding to make sure that there is the best possible opportunity for the council to be successful in its bid for the fund.

Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard
Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Greengross (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Amendment 6 in my name would require the Secretary of State to publish an assessment of the number of public lavatories kept open by the rates release provided by this Bill. I also want to speak in favour of Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, which requires the Secretary of State not only to review the number of public lavatories in England but also to assess their distribution and whether the provision meets the needs of the community and also the cleanliness of public lavatories and whether baby-changing facilities are provided.

I very much regret that I was unable to speak in Committee due to sickness. I note the Minister’s offer to meet to discuss the issues that my amendment raises. I have since written to him saying that I would very much like to meet him, and I await his response eagerly.

I also want to thank the Minister for confirming in Committee that there are currently 3,990 public toilets in England and Wales. How does this figure compare with the figures of a decade earlier? According to the BBC report, “Reality Check: Public toilets mapped”, released in August 2018, there was a 13% decline in the number of public toilets provided by local authorities in the UK between 2010 and 2018.

We know that since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic many more public lavatories have closed. As I outlined in my letter to the Minister, the provision of public lavatories is an issue that has an impact on everyone in this country. To date, there has been a lack of data on public lavatory provision in the United Kingdom.

According to NHS England, 14 million adults in the UK have problems controlling their bladder, and 6.5 million have issues regarding their bowel. For too many, bladder or bowel continence issues are a significant barrier to living full and independent lives. As joint chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Bladder and Bowel Continence Care, I know well that a Royal Society for Public Health survey in 2018 found that one in five people did not feel able to go out as often as they would like due to the lack of public toilets available in England. The same survey found that 56% of respondents restricted their fluid intake before going out, trying to reduce the need to find a toilet.

The provision of public lavatories is a significant public health issue that requires far more attention than it currently receives. As part of the Government’s strategy to support people enjoying at least five extra healthy and independent years of life by 2035, serious consideration must be given by policymakers to how we can support people living with continence issues. The provision of public lavatories is clearly a critical part of this.

The aim of this Bill in providing rates relief for the providers of public lavatories is a good one that I hope will help keep more of these facilities open. The purpose of my amendment, and that in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, is to ensure that the Government track the success of this initiative and, more generally, that they gather more useful data regarding the provision of public lavatories.

Given that the scope of the Bill is limited to rates relief, it was not possible to table amendments to address some of the broader policy issues regarding public lavatories and continence care. That will have to wait till another day. My amendment aims to improve our evidence base on public lavatory provision in this country to assist the Government with any future policy decisions in this area. I shall not put it to a Division, but I hope that the Government will agree to it being added to the Bill.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I thoroughly support the amendments, not to the point of wishing to divide on them but to say that the provision of public toilets is something that Parliament should have its eye on and that the Government should keep us in touch with. I do not believe for a moment that any of us want to go back to the condition of a few centuries ago when there were no such things. Those of us who are my age will have had the chance to sample such environments on our travels. Although I can attest for the sheer romance of being out on a dark evening and listening to the dung beetles scenting what is going on and humming towards you, that is really not the way that we, or anyone else in this world, should seek to run our towns.

I very much hope that the Government, in their attention in this Bill and in the consultation that they are conducting on toilets generally, will evolve a system of making sure that our provision of public toilets is not only sufficient to ensure that we have clean and hygienic towns and cities but that all those who might otherwise be restricted in their access to the world by a lack of public toilet provision are not so restricted. I encourage the Government, even if they do not accept these amendments today, to put the feeling that lies behind them into practice and, in due course, into law.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I can speak very briefly to Amendments 3 and 6, which I sincerely support. A review after 12 months and annual reviews thereafter are essential if we are going to get a real grip on how effective this Act has been, and we all want it to succeed. There may well be other ways of collecting statistics, but a specific return is very important, not least for planning for the future, and that is where I shall place my emphasis.

The Minister was very kind and met us this week. He seemed to share our concern that we must not go backwards in the provision of public lavatories and our feeling that this is an opportunity to start to plan much more strategically and successfully for the future. The Victorians, with their deep awareness of the priority of public health, infectious diseases and the rights of men and women, were in no doubt about the importance of public lavatories. We ought to take our lead from them, because Covid has had a devastating effect on public services. Provision of, and the priority we have given to, decent public lavatories has deteriorated.

As we heard from the British Toilet Association this week, there is no doubt that this service is in crisis. That is not a word it uses loosely. Covid has shown what happens when public loos are shut with no thought for what else might happen when everything around them is also shut—all the ancillary provision in shops, public buildings and so on. It matters now that there are only public loos available, and it has proved a real nightmare in some places, with the cuts in services—we have heard about Birmingham and the City of London already this evening.

This is a moment of opportunity which may override a sense of despair for three reasons. First, there is now a wider understanding than ever before of public health and how disease spreads, and people are aware of the need to take responsibility for their own health.

Secondly, public lavatories are now the only lavatories available to people in public spaces. When they are closed or in a disgusting state, it is no wonder that people are not very happy about leaving home and tend to reconcile themselves to staying in and feeling trapped and claustrophobic in the way we have all experienced to some extent during Covid.

Thirdly, this has direct economic consequences. It is not simply a right; it is a social and economic function. It means, in particular, that our town centres, which are suffering so badly, will have less appeal and less reason to be visited. They have taken the brunt of Covid in so many ways—there are forests of estate agents’ signs in the town I live in. If the Government are serious about making town centres the centre of our communities again, they have to prioritise the provision of public loos.

Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his support for my Amendment 9 in this group. I will speak to both my amendment and Amendment 1, which the noble Lord has just moved. I declare my interest as a member of Pendle Borough Council, which no longer has public lavatories but is the rating authority for those that exist. I thank the Government for scheduling this Committee fairly quickly after Second Reading so that we can progress this Bill; it gives us real hope that the Bill will manage to pass in this Session.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would follow up amendments moved in the Commons and comments made quite widely by people at Second Reading in your Lordships’ House. They pointed out that very many lavatories that people consider to be public lavatories and that operate as public lavatories are ancillary to other facilities provided by local authorities and other voluntary bodies, and so on. The problem is that, from a rating point of view, they are part of the same hereditament as the facility to which they are basically ancillary and therefore would not come under the provisions of this Bill as it stands. The Minister has kindly written to interested Members of the House putting forward the view that the Government put forward in the Commons that, to exempt these genuine public lavatories from business rates would be onerous—particularly on the Valuation Office Agency, which is responsible for doing all this— and that it would therefore not be practical to go ahead with it.

My Amendment 9 tackles some of the affected lavatories, which would probably not be a very large number. I believe that this could be done without any onerous burden being placed upon the VOA or anybody else. It reads that, for the purposes of subsection 4(I), which is what this is all about,

“a self-contained public lavatories facility which forms part of a larger hereditament and which may be accessed independently from outside that hereditament forms a separate hereditament.”

It is possible that it would have to be done technically in some other way: it might be that it could be done via secondary legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has amendments later on, to which I am not going to speak, but at this stage I will just say that I strongly support them; they provide an opportunity for the Government to tackle the technical details, and there are huge technical details in all this, because it is about rating. They would allow the Government to pick up a lot of the points that we are making in these probing amendments at this stage.

It seems to me that, when a lavatory is part of a council-owned building in the middle of a small town or village—it might be a library, market hall or any other council-owned building—and has an outside door so that, even if there is also an inside door that could be locked when the main building is not open, people would be able to access that from outside, sorting out the separate valuation for a limited number of instances like this would not be a great burden, and it could, and should, be done. In practice, the VOA will have done it anyway when it assesses the rates on the whole building, because here is a separate use from the main building and it will have a look at it and say, “What is the amount that that contributes?” Somewhere in the depths of its records, it probably has the information anyway. Even if it does not have it, however, it is not an onerous task for it to do. The number is relatively small compared with the great majority of lavatories in libraries and so on. I hope the Government will accept the principle of this—I do not expect them to accept my amendment as it is today—and go away and have a look at it. I invite the Minister to say that he will do that.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as I said at Second Reading, I welcome the Bill. That the Government have chosen to encourage the provision of public lavatories is a great public good, because adequate lavatory provision is a liberation for many millions of people, for whom the thought of not finding one when they go out is a significant restriction on their participation in society as a whole. There are said to be some 14 million people in this country with bowel or bladder problems. That is a very large proportion of the population who are worried about being able to access a public lavatory when they go out.

I really encourage the Government, perhaps not immediately but during the progress of the legislation, to look at opportunities to extend its reach. An obvious example is lavatories in stations, which everyone regards as public lavatories. Victoria station is very well used. It is only in a very peripheral way a part of any other hereditament. The same applies to lavatories in other public buildings, and to push in the direction which is being opened by Amendment 1 is thoroughly worth while.

There is no obvious need for a public lavatory to be a separate building. It seems, given the attractiveness of public lavatories, that having them in a building encourages other uses of that building too, and that their integration into public buildings should be encouraged. If we can find a way round it over the next few years, we should not be privileging just those public lavatories which are free standing.

As has been said, I really hope that the Government look on this as an opportunity, over time, to encourage facilities that are needed for the general public enjoyment of public facilities by extending the rather narrow rating release in the Bill to the many other deserving facilities that are provided at public expense and otherwise, and without which we will find ourselves rather too often caught short.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy for what the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, Lord Greaves and Lord Lucas, have said in support of these amendments. For some people, venturing into parts of our urban communities where they cannot be sure of access to a public lavatory is a risk that they dare not take. The physical conditions that create this problem can affect all ages. One thinks especially of the elderly, but there are also visitors to the area and others who depend on the uncertainties of public transport to get home. Whoever they are, they need to be provided for.

My interest in this subject, as I have mentioned before, is a professional one. I am interested in whether the amendments to test alternative solutions to those which the Government are suggesting are capable of being put into effect. The valuation of buildings for rating was one of my specialist subjects when I was in practice at the Scottish Bar. The valuation process itself was not for me; that was the job of chartered surveyors. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, is a distinguished member of that profession, with years of experience in the practice of that art, and I am very sorry that for other reasons he is unable to take part in this debate.

However, valuation for rating is not just about facts and figures. There are some legal rules too, and that is where I come in. The non-domestic rating system is the product of a listing process. Every non-domestic hereditament that is capable of separate occupation must be entered in the valuation list and given a value. A single building may contain within it a number of properties that are in separate occupation. If so, one would expect each of them to be the subject of a separate entry and a separate value, but where one finds a building in a single occupation, the consequence is that the entire building is treated as a separate hereditament and valued accordingly.

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Moved by

[Lord Lucas]

4: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, after “lavatories” insert “of a prescribed description”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures the Government has power to require that the lavatories are provided and operated in accordance with national standards, making proper provision for the various needs of their potential clientele including the disabled, parents with children, women and trans people.

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[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I urge the Government to take the opportunity to give the Bill some wording that expands its ambit, and to take advantage of the leverage that it gives them—as the noble Lord has noted, it is a generous disbursement of funds—to achieve other policy objectives. The policy objective that I, personally, would like the Bill to support is whatever the outcome is of the Government’s current review of toilet provision in general.

It has been a joke all my life, let alone my noble friend’s life, how there is always a queue at the ladies and none at the gents. We have not had equal provision in relation to demand. We now need to recognise that there are people—particularly those who are committed transgender—who are not easily able to take advantage of toilets that are just for men or just for women. Having toilets that are universally unisex, such as those in the Old Vic and the Department for Education visitor accommodation, is extremely difficult for many women and some men, including me, to put up with.

There are, therefore, matters of policy relating to the provision of toilets that we can reasonably anticipate will come to the fore over the next couple of years. It would be good to give the Government, in this Bill, the ability to lever the rates relief that they are giving in order to achieve their policies. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, pointed out, we may find that over time there will be opportunities to expand the Bill’s ambit to other worthwhile premises in ways which, as my noble friend insisted, go along with the modus operandi of the valuation office. That is fine, but we are missing a chance if we leave the Bill as it is and do not give the Government additional power along the lines that I have suggested. I beg to move.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is not clear to me why the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, believes that it is necessary to—I quote—prescribe a definition of public lavatories. It is not clear what policy objective would be achieved by his amendments. Without wishing to cause offence, that clarity has not been expanded during the noble Lord’s introduction of the amendment.

As we have already heard, there is currently a huge variety of provision: some are in old-style toilet blocks, some include Changing Places and some include baby changing facilities. Some modern provision consists of a single facility into which only one person at a time can enter. Some public toilets are unisex, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, explained. That is increasingly the case in modern office blocks. I have never heard anyone being particularly concerned about that provision. Public toilets are simply a facility for members of the public. I do not on earth see what is gained by prescribing a definition.

The best thing we can do, having heard the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, explain his amendments, is agree to disagree with him. I, for one, cannot support this amendment.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for his amendments, which would provide the Government with the power to limit this relief to only those toilets that meet prescribed criteria of their choosing. The underpinning nature of the amendments is the desire to see toilets for all, and I am very supportive of the need to have toilets for those who need disabled access, gender-neutral toilets and gender-specific toilets. As I set out to the House earlier, the Government do not intend to limit the measure within the Bill to only those toilets that meet certain criteria. Subject to Royal Assent, the Bill will support the provision of separately assessed toilets across the country. I therefore do not agree that it would be right to make any amendments which could limit the benefits of this measure.

Furthermore, limiting the relief to only those public lavatories that fit a prescribed description would place a significant burden on local authorities, which will be responsible for administering the relief. Well-intentioned though the amendment is, it would weaken the effectiveness of the legislation were we to require its provisions to be subject to a new, locally administered system of controls.

While I appreciate the arguments that my noble friend Lord Lucas made in support of the Government having the power to make this relief more specific, any benefits must be weighed against the consequential impact on local authorities of using such a power. Although I do not think that the Bill would be improved by these amendments, I appreciate the points that my noble friend makes about the standards of our public toilets.

The Government are interested not just in the total number of public toilets in this country but in ensuring that everyone in our communities feels confident and comfortable using them. This means maintaining hygiene standards and ensuring fair provision of accessible and gender-neutral toilets.

Noble Lords may therefore wish to note that the technical review of toilets launched by the Government will consider the ratio of female toilets needed versus the number for men and take into account the needs of all members of the community, to ensure fair provision of accessible and gender-neutral toilets. The call for evidence, which closes on Friday, has received over 15,000 responses; a government response will be published in due course. As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of gender-neutral toilets will be considered, alongside any guidance on the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets. These considerations also include provisions for older people and parents with very young children who need changing facilities.

I hope this reassures my noble friend that the Government are supportive of not just the total number of public toilets but the vital importance of ensuring that appropriate facilities are available to all. On this basis—and the basis that the potential administrative burden resulting from these amendments would outweigh the benefits—I hope that he will agree to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his obiter dicta on the Government’s general intentions in this area, which I applaud. I can see that he has clearly understood the intent of my amendment and disagrees with it. I therefore beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.

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[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the formula proposed by this group of amendments raises an interesting practical question. I support what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said on Amendment 6 about the desire to provide for Changing Places facilities where required, but my interest is in a more practical question: whether what is proposed here works with the normal principles of rating and valuation law.

I understand that it is proposed to extend the relief to the more usual situation where there is a public lavatory, or perhaps more than one, within a larger building which is not accessible from outside—the situation contemplated by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in Amendment 9, which we considered earlier. This being so, these amendments correctly assume that a value has been given to the building as a whole; they seek to extract from that value the amount attributable to the public lavatory or lavatories by asking for it or them to be valued separately and the value given to the building as a whole reduced accordingly. As I said earlier, I am not and never was a valuer, but I fear that the exercise that the amendment contemplates is not nearly as simple as it might seem. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, touched on this earlier.

The problem is one that a valuer would readily identify. First, it is not normal for individual elements in a building, such as public lavatories, to be given values in the course of making up the value for the hereditament as a whole, so a valuation exercise would have to be undertaken which is not normally—indeed, probably never has been—undertaken in the course of the valuations we have today. There is also a consequence for the other part of the building that does not consist of these lavatories—the effect of extracting the value and whether the value attributable to the remainder can be properly sustained without some kind of examination. I suspect that this approach runs into quite difficult valuation problems which a valuer would need to explore with the Minister to see whether they could be resolved.

There may be an alternative solution. I mentioned earlier the example of charitable relief; this time I will take another. Rather than engaging in the rather difficult exercise I have hinted at, it might be worth considering applying a derating formula across the board to all hereditaments comprising public lavatories. There is precedent for that approach in a statute introduced in the 1920s to provide relief for industrial hereditaments. These were hereditaments that were shown to be occupied and used as a mine, factory or workshop. The details are to be found in the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act 1928. Hereditaments which met the tests for being treated as subjects of that kind were entitled to a reduction of half their annual value. The aim was to deal with the acute problems of unemployment and to stimulate the economy by encouraging the development of subjects for industrial use. Of course, an enormous problem was being addressed there that was shared across the economy as a whole, and one can well understand the measure and the extent of the relief that derating provided. I should mention that that statute was repealed some years ago so does not apply today.

A 50% reduction would be out of all proportion to what we are talking about when considering the public lavatories element in the overall hereditament, but that does not affect the principle on which the relief was given in these cases: that it is possible, without getting embroiled in detailed valuation exercises, simply to introduce a form of derating for a desirable purpose to encourage whatever one seeks to encourage. If the Minister is not willing to accept these amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, might find it worth considering a 1% or 2% deduction from the overall figure, perhaps adjustable by statutory instrument in the light of experience, as an alternative to the rather complicated valuation exercises that this group of amendments contemplates.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am attracted to the idea that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, has just advanced. After Second Reading, I had a very long and entertaining conversation with the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, on the technical subject of valuation. Some of it may have stuck in my brain, but the overall impression that this was not a simple matter certainly stuck there—in particular, the idea that the uplift in rateable value that comes from having a toilet can be quite substantial. It makes, for instance, the upper floors of a department store much more attractive than one might think. So there are considerable complications underlying the process, and if a toilet was subtracted from the whole, the question of how that whole would be valued fairly—when a toilet is available but it is not being rated—becomes quite complicated. At least, that is the strong impression that I was left with after my conversation.

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the amendment in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, seeks to insert a new clause that would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on the impact of the Act. The Bill, though small, provides for significant rate relief for public toilets as they become zero-rated. In those circumstances, the Government would surely want to see what the effect of the policy has been. The proposed new clause would bring that into effect.

I am happy to support Amendment 13 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, which goes well with my amendment, by giving us information, year on year, about the effect that the policy is having, given that it will be costing the public purse revenue of which it would otherwise be in receipt. If we found that public toilets were still closing, that would be useful information to help us consider how we keep them open and whether something else needs to be done.

Amendment 14 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Thomas of Winchester, is on a similar theme to Amendments 11 and 13, but has an important emphasis on the review to look at the effectiveness of the Act in increasing accessible toilets and, in particular, Changing Places facilities, which we have talked about in earlier groups. I can see how beneficial it would be for the Government to have this information to hand. It would enable them to see that the Act was working effectively or highlight that more work needed to be done.

Amendment 15 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Pinnock, is in a similar place. It picks up on the point and gives power to make a recommendation whether other measures in this area need to be introduced.

I like all the amendments in this group. Perhaps all those who tabled them should get together before Report to table one amendment that takes all these points on board.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, asked me to speak to Amendment 13 in her name. We very much share the sentiments just expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. We all support this Bill and want to see it succeed. We want it as a foundation on which a renaissance in publicly available toilet facilities can proceed down the next decade or so. To know that we are succeeding or to know where any problems or challenges lie, we need good data. We therefore hope that the Government will accept an obligation to publish that information so that we can cheer them for their successes and encourage them to do better where that appears to be needed. It took around 50 years to persuade Victorian authorities to install public lavatories, let alone to agree funding and rates for them. With luck, because of this legislation, we will see increased provision at a much quicker rate. This amendment would let us keep track of progress and would be an essential expression of Parliament’s support for this measure.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I so agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, just said. I support Amendment 11, but am speaking to Amendment 14, which follows Amendment 11 in this group, calling on the Government to undertake a review of the impact of the Act on the provision of accessible lavatories within a year of its passing.

There are three reasons why we need to know whether the change in rating for stand-alone public loos is resulting in more accessible facilities. First, the population is getting older, so there will be more disabled and elderly people about in the future than there are now, which means that the need for accessible toilets will grow. Secondly, sadly, there will not be so many food outlets on the high street which have accessible toilets for use by the general public, because of multiple closures in the wake of the pandemic. Thirdly, thousands of disabled people, like me, have spent the last year shielding, which means that they will not have been out and about. Many will now be more fearful than ever about going out without knowing where they can spend a penny in an accessible toilet. The Minister may say that any review should be done by local authorities, but we will not have a national picture unless the Government take ownership of it. Perhaps the British Toilet Association could help with up-to-date information.

I asked the Minister, at a meeting to which he kindly agreed, whether he could tell us how the £30 million rollout of Changing Places was going. These wonderful facilities are absolutely vital to about 250,000 disabled people. They are needed in town centres, arts venues, hospitals and wherever there are large gatherings of people. We have heard a bit about them this afternoon. Perhaps the Minister will undertake to give us more specific information at the next stage of the Bill.

Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome both Bills. I completely support the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in what he said. When we are reforming the rating system, we absolutely need to follow the money and move in the wake of Amazon, and make sure that, at least where we can bite it, which is its distribution centres, it is paying a proper rate of tax. It is important that we look at the effect our tax system has on our businesses and that we do not disadvantage native UK businesses and advantage overseas ones, as we have been doing for years in our VAT system.

It is also important that, when it comes to rate relief measures, we look at exactly who needs the relief. As the noble Lord may know, I am saddened that the Government have excluded a category of businesses from the Covid rate relief, specifically those such as suppliers to exhibitions, which have to maintain large premises so that they can have a business when exhibitions resume again—maybe this year, but maybe not—but which are still subject to the full business rates arrangements.

I want to spend my time today on the lavatories Bill and support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said. Indeed, I was cheering through the noble Baroness’s speech. We need public lavatories in town centres. Think of what life would be like if there were none. It ought to be one of the Government’s underlying objectives to encourage their provision.

That the Government are relieving the rates on separate buildings that are just lavatories is good, but the most effective way of providing a public lavatory is in conjunction with a business. The loos in Victoria Station are there because the railway wants to look after its customers, and it is the same for the loos in John Lewis, restaurants, hotels and anywhere else that one might make use of them. These are the provisions that we ought to be encouraging. That the intricacies of the current rating system do not seem to offer any obvious way of saying that the value added to a building by including a public lavatory should not affect the rateable value of the building is no reason why we should not do our best, conversationally in Committee on the Bill, to get real legislation when we get rating reform to make sure that the provision of this public service is not something that we then tax.

Also, if we are giving rate relief to public lavatories, we should do so with some conditions, and there should be something in the Bill that allows the Government to impose those conditions.

Coming back specifically to what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, a proper quantity of provision of separate women’s toilet facilities is absolutely crucial. She demonstrated in great detail why that is true, and I support everything she said. I shall be introducing an amendment in Committee to enable the Government, should they so wish, to impose conditions to say that a toilet would be zero-rated for rates only if it matched the conditions required by the Government.

Devolution in England

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the importance of enabling local leadership to drive forward the cultural agenda of particular places and I am sure that that will be discussed more fully in the forthcoming White Paper.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend look at the proposals in the Policy Exchange document No More Tiers, which proposes that power should reside in communities such as the one I live in now, at Eastbourne, rather than be handed down from higher authorities?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I will take a careful look at the No More Tiers paper published by Policy Exchange some 14 years ago. I can assure my noble friend that there will be no blanket abolition of districts and that we will take a locally driven approach and ensure that decision-making is taken as close as possible to the people we are serving.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

I look forward to hearing the comments from other noble Lords on this group. I also look forward to the Minister’s responses to ensure that we move from “guidance”, “may” and “consider” to something that can give real confidence to not just disabled people but all people. This would be an effective, positive move to drive economic activity, but in a way that is inclusive for all.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, what I want to say on my Amendment 4 will work very well with what I want to say on Amendment 24, when we come to it. If the Minister chooses to reply to Amendment 4 now, that is fine, but I will leave my remarks until later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, Amendments 22 and 23 are intended to offer the Government an opportunity to outline how a district authority can take full advantage of this Bill when the highways are controlled by a county authority. Without any permissions or discussions whatever, I take the example of my native town of Eastbourne. Grove Road has a lot of cafes in it; the pavements are narrow and the traffic is fairly continuous. There is no way in which the cafes can spill on to the pavements. However, if we can close the road, as is easy to do because there are good workarounds for traffic that would not cause any great problem, we suddenly become able to offer all those businesses the opportunity for profitable trade.

However, in doing this, the district has to work with the county. I would like to see workable arrangements that enable the district to say what they want to happen and for the county to enable that without delay and argument.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson [V]]

My Lords, I have nothing further to add on this amendment at this time.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, I have received requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Balfe.

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but I did not gather how he expects the county authority to respond to a request from the district that a particular road should be closed to traffic to enable restaurants to spread on to the pavements and streets. We are looking to do things quickly. As others have remarked, timescales in such requests can stretch into years. We have been asking for permission to put a pedestrian crossing opposite the new conference centre we built. This opened a year and a half ago, but nothing has happened yet. We want these things to happen quickly. What in the Bill will make superior authorities react speedily?

[Lord Greenhalgh]

There is nothing specific in the Bill on communication between lower-tier authorities and county councils, other than that the intention of it is to move speedily to support the hospitality industry. That is the underlying purpose of the measures we propose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]]

My Lords, this amendment follows up the point that I raised at Second Reading about the use of outdoor spaces within the curtilage of premises that are not spaces covered by the definition of relevant highways and pavement licences. I did not get a reply, which I am sure is an oversight, as the Minister wrote on another matter. I wrote back on Friday, so at least there has been some advance notice about this somewhat fuzzy issue.

Newspapers have been proclaiming that this Bill allows pubs to turn their car parks into beer gardens. One such article was in the Sun on 23 June, headlined:

“Pubs and hotels allowed to turn car parks and grounds into beer gardens to boost economy as lockdown eases”,


and the Mirror said:

“What pubs will look like with beer gardens in car parks as lockdown is eased.”


Even the trade magazine Morning Advertiser said:

“This means pubs and restaurants will be able to use car parks and terraces as dining and drinking areas using their existing seating licences ... thanks to the Business and Planning Bill”.


There are other articles—indeed, so many that it looks like there must have been a briefing.

If that is correct then I am content, but I am confused as to how this is achieved by the Bill if car parks are not part of a relevant highway. So my first question is: are they covered as a “relevant highway” under Part 7A of the Highways Act? I know that they are public places in relation to some driving offences but, as I understand it, they are not highways. A simple look at Part 7A implies that they are not, but who knows what terms one might uncover with more research. In any event, I am also interested in patios, courtyards and other places that might be within the curtilage and not already under the licence. They are clearly not highways. So where is the general new provision? I have proposed one in my amendment just in case it is not there.

Next is the question of whether a licence is needed anyway. My starting point was an awareness that various pubs have already applied for licence variations for car parks and patios. I have also had some emails sent to me on the subject. Some people have the understanding that off-sales cover car park use—on the basis that it is the sale and not the drinking that is licensed—and that the extended off-sales therefore bring them into play if they were not in play already.

However the FAQs about off-sales on the Stafford Borough Council website make the situation clear:

“Q: Can I provide seating for customers of the business, for the purposes of consumption?”


That is for the consumption of off-sales.

“A: No. Seating cannot be made available (and this can include areas not under the control of the premises) and this is not restricted to seating within the premises such as beer gardens and adjoining smoking areas, but would include areas adjacent to the premises which also might include public benches.”


It rules that out: no providing of seating for drinking your off-licence purchases, although local authorities can vary significantly in their levels of strictness.

Then there is the matter of where the sale is made. If there is a bar in the car park, it is clear that the sale is made there. If a table order is taken and paid for in the car park or the beer garden, some people think that is the point of sale, but in the 2002 Valpak packaging case the judge held thatAn article in 2018 about pubs and gardens in the trade magazine Morning Advertiser notes that it is necessary to consider: whether the pub’s outside area is already part of the licence and what rules apply, as restrictions are common, often on time; if it is unlicensed and it is wished to include it then bear in mind there can be objections during the application procedure; that it can be used anyway if it is accompanied by the service of hot food between 5 am and 11 pm as that does not require a licence; and whether it is part of a public highway as then both planning and a pavement licence may be required.

All that, and indeed a lot more, is the background to my amendment, which in simple terms just says that open-space licences should be available on similar terms to pavement licences to cover cases where such a provision is needed. In most instances, non-pavement outdoor spaces are less likely to cause obstruction, and that is a valuable consideration, although they would still need to be treated sensitively with regard to noise and nuisance, especially in residential areas, and for that purpose I have copied in all the parts of the pavement licences referencing such matters. I beg to move.

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to support this amendment. I hope the Government will consider allowing councils considerable freedom as to what land they allow premises to use, obviously subject to the permission of the council and the landholder. If you look at a rather complicated town such as Eastbourne, there are few places where you can use the pavement, but not that far away there may well be spaces you could allow a premises to use. It gets quite difficult to negotiate the Bill as it is written, but with a bit more freedom for a local council to apply common sense to where they are prepared to allow tables to be put, we could get to a useful outcome. I encourage my noble friend to look at widening the scope of the permissions that the council is allowed to give so that we can find within the confines of a convoluted town the space that our businesses need.

[The Earl of Clancarty [V]]

My Lords, I will be very brief indeed. I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. It seems a matter of common sense that, certainly in the shorter term, there might be a need to use other spaces. The LGA supports such measures, and I hope the Government take notice and clarify the position.