Interpreting Services in the Courts (Public Services Committee Report)

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, at the end of a debate of very high quality, I join with others in commending this report, and the work of the committee, so ably chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley. I thank her for her opening: I hope I will not repeat any of it, but I was heartened to hear that, frankly, she did not mince her words. It is also my great pleasure to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Levitt, with her wealth of experience, to her place on the Front Bench for her first debate. We look forward to many further discussions in the future.

I would not want to let this occasion pass without praising the work, over many years, of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, both in opposition and recently in government. He is not a lawyer by profession but he is bolstered by extensive practical experience of the justice system as a magistrate in criminal and family cases. His contributions to justice debates in the House have always been measured, courteous, knowledgeable and helpful.

The committee’s report was thorough and made a number of carefully considered and well-evidenced criticisms of court interpretation services, drawn from the wealth of experience of the witnesses it heard from: experienced court service users, as the noble Baroness, Lady Yardley said, the Bar Council, barristers, judges, the Law Society and others.

This debate has, frankly, reinforced an impression that many speakers have clearly had, that the Government’s published response has smacked of complacency. The noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, used the word “smug” and I believe he may have been justified. It is to be hoped that the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Levitt, will depart from that complacency, will be more thorough and will give better credence to some of the criticisms made by the committee.

In particular, the Government rejected a central conclusion of the committee, outlined in paragraphs 53 and 54 of the report. Paragraph 54 states that the current provision of interpreting services in the courts is

“not acceptable and presents a significant risk to the administration of justice”.

The committee also recommended the collection of much more detailed and consistent data-gathering. It is plain that the failures of the services, and the distinction between the committee’s findings and the Government’s response, have largely stemmed from the failure of detailed data-gathering.

The Government’s response was:

“The MoJ is confident in the quality of its published data, which has been externally reviewed recently … and found to be of good quality”.


In response to paragraph 54, they state that

“the MoJ disagrees with the Committee’s conclusion that the provision of interpreting services in the courts is not acceptable and presents a significant risk to the administration of justice”.

Importantly, they add:

“The quality metrics for the service are good (96% success rate in Q4 2024) and the number of trials that are delayed due to lack of interpreters is very low (0.7% of ineffective trials in 2024)”.


However, the reality—as shown by the evidence taken by the committee and from speakers today—is that the system’s weaknesses, in practice, simply do not show up either in the quality metrics or in the number of trials that were ineffective for lack of interpreters. Frankly, I wonder how far the Government have taken into account the difficulties of gathering data and making complaints when the primary sources are the primary users, whose difficulty with using the English language is the very factor that gives rise to their need of the service in the first place.

Striking points were made by witnesses to the committee about interpreters turning up to hearings without the time to attend pre-hearing conferences with counsel, because they were not paid to appear before the start time of the hearing. Then there were the dialect difficulties. One witness gave striking evidence of a GMC hearing, where the complainant witness spoke a particular Afghani dialect of Pashto, rather than a Pakistani dialect familiar to the booked interpreters, and so the witness could not communicate with the arranged interpreters. The committee reported on a clear conflict between the MoJ’s data and the lived experience of witnesses, a point powerfully made by the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Haslemere; however, the MoJ’s response relied on the same data, despite its flaws.

On training, the committee was very clear that the standard of the qualifications of court interpreters has been insufficiently high and that a level 6 qualification ought to be required. One can see that this may, in some cases, present difficulties with rare languages or dialects. However, on a careful reading of the Government’s response, it appears that there has not been an insistence on a level 6 qualification and one is not proposed at present. The Government’s current stated position is that a level 6 qualification should be the default level for full trials—which they call professional-level assignments—but that there is to be no insistence on that. Similarly, there is to be no insistence on a level 3 qualification as the minimum for lower-level bookings—non-evidential hearings and telephone interpreting. It is unclear from Government’s response how far they will insist on contractual minimum standards for the new contracts when they are let, a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, also explored.

I will make a further point on qualifications. Skill in interpreting is not limited to the ability to translate faithfully the questions put to a witness and the evidence given in the witness’s answers. That is a vital part of it and should be the aim of every interpreter. However, it is also important to stress the need for interpreters to avoid the weakness, which we frequently experience in the courts, when a less qualified interpreter gets into a discussion with a witness about both the questions put and the answers to be given. When that happens, it obscures the evidence the witness gives, reduces its credibility and, in bad cases, can seriously mislead the court.

On interpreters’ conditions, pay, hours, travel expenses and the like, considerable criticisms were made by the committee and speakers today. The committee called for minimum pay rates, subject to regular review, improved cancellation arrangements and payment for travel time and expenses, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Yardley, my noble friend Lord Shipley and a number of other speakers made similar points.

In addition, the committee commented on the widespread feeling that interpreters were inadequately recognised and valued within the existing court system, and the example of the lack of passes was given and had great deal of weight. They are treated with much less respect than their status as court professionals merits. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, made these points on conditions and on valuing, on which she has campaigned for years. The MoJ in its response disagreed with the committee’s recommendations on conditions, maintaining broadly that the rate paid to interpreters is competitive. The MoJ also disagreed with the recommendation for an independent register, without any convincing argument for that disagreement. However, there is evidence that the present system encourages interpreters to seek off-contract bookings, rather than bookings through the MoJ’s contracted suppliers. Of course, the ministry has an obligation to secure the best value for money for the taxpayer, but it is unclear that the present structure is achieving that—a point made by my noble friend Lord Willis.

I turn to whether the tender process designed to replace the present contract with TBW, which expires next year, ought to be paused and reviewed. The difficulty is that we are approaching the end of the TBW contract. However, the last point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, was that the new contract has not been signed and needs to be thoroughly reconsidered. That seems a thoroughly defensible position.

Finally, the committee was of the view, though not expressed in great detail, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, said, that the court should go much further down the road towards incorporating more translation technology into the interpretation services, with more remote interpreting and greater use of AI, as new technology advances. The Government’s response went into painfully little detail in this area while paying lip service to improving technology. I should be grateful, as would the Committee, if, when she responds to this debate, the Minister could respond to the points made by the noble and learned Lord, the noble Lords, Lord Carter of Coles and Lord Mott, my noble friend Lord Willis and a number of others, subject, of course, to the caveats expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins on the present limitations of AI translation for some languages. But the Minister should give us greater detail on how the Government propose that interpretation services could benefit from a fast-improving technology and a massively increasing use of AI—all that without compromising the service provided to litigants who need it in this vital area.

Sentencing Act 2020 (Amendment of Schedule 21) Regulations 2025

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Monday 8th September 2025 Grand Committee

As for the aggravating factor that this occurs at the end of a relationship, where the relationship has been controlling and coercive, one can understand it, but, where that is not the case, it is very hard to see why that fact alone should justify the man being sent to prison for several years longer than would otherwise be the case. The Law Commission will review this entire area but, of course, that will take some time. It is my view that it would have been more satisfactory if these matters had been left to be considered by the Law Commission, rather than dealt with by this subordinate legislation.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, in considering this instrument, I once again express our gratitude to the Minister for the way in which he set out the justification for the instrument and its background, particularly the fact that the Law Commission review will take some time to happen. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, for the careful consideration that he has given to this and for his expression of concern at the effect that adding these two aggravating factors could have on sentencing.

It has been explained that the instrument adds two statutory aggravating factors to Schedule 21 for judges to consider when imposing a minimum term for murder. The first is when the murder is connected with either the actual or intended end of an intimate relationship, while the second is when the murder involves strangulation, suffocation or asphyxiation. As the Explanatory Memorandum points out, judges will of course be entitled to consider all factors and take all factors into account when sentencing for murder. Those will include anyway the fact that a relationship is coercive or controlling and the degree to which the murder reflects the coercion or control—in this case, generally by a man over a woman.

I know that we all welcome the further Law Commission review that is promised, but it is a fact that these reviews take a considerable amount of time; that is inevitably the result of the care that the Law Commission gives to such considerations.

In one sense, this instrument does very little. I note the noble and learned Lord’s concern that the changes will lead to significantly increased sentences. One can see that a statutory aggravating factor does have that effect—and that is the intended effect. However, how far sentences would be increased is not capable of assessment; neither is there any clear evidence of how far such sentences will be increased because of an aggravating factor.

The facts are that the social background against which this instrument is presented is that coercive control is now recognised far more widely than it used to be; and that the effects of factors such as those mentioned in this instrument are more widely recognised and taken more seriously. So I hope that the noble and learned Lord’s concern that the changes will lead to significantly increased sentences proves unfounded, not in the sense that there should not be a recognition of aggravating factors but in the sense that such aggravating factors are increasingly recognised by judges in any event.

The two factors added by this instrument around coercive relationships were particularly important, as has been said, in influencing the 2023 review of domestic homicide sentencing by Clare Wade KC and in framing her recommendations. In the domestic abuse context, which is the context we are considering, they are particularly significant. They are also significant in the light of the Government’s stated determination, on which they are plainly acting, to halve violence against women and girls, which is a major ambition.

The first change recognises that actual or threatened relationship breakdown can, and often does, play a role in promoting extreme domestic violence. I accept that the extent of deterrence that follows from that is uncertain, but it sends an important signal to the potential perpetrators of domestic violence about the effect of coercive control.

The second change recognises the particular significance of strangulation, suffocation or asphyxiation in domestic violence, particularly by men on women. We recognised that during the passage of what is now the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, when I, along with the Government, signed a cross-party amendment to introduce the new offence of non-fatal strangulation. In the debates on the then Bill, we took account of a great deal of evidence of the high incidence of strangulation in domestic violence cases, as well as of the distressing fact that so many cases where non-fatal strangulation occurs ultimately lead to the perpetrator escalating that violence to, ultimately, fatal violence and murder.

The fact is, therefore, that judges will continue to weigh up all relevant factors in assessing minimum terms of imprisonment to be served by those sentenced to life for murder. There is merit in highlighting these two factors because they can only send an important signal to the actual and potential perpetrators of domestic violence—and, indeed, to the victims of such domestic violence because, of course, victims are often frightened out of reporting domestic violence even when it is an attempt at strangulation. The evidence that that can escalate to murder in due course is important; it is important that potential victims, as well as potential perpetrators, should know of that signal. In my view, that is a powerful reason for supporting this instrument.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, this statutory instrument amends Schedule 21 to the Sentencing Act 2020. These regulations implement key recommendations from the Domestic Homicide Sentencing Review led by Clare Wade KC and mark an important step forward in how our legal system treats cases of murder that involve domestic abuse. They are welcome, and I say that notwithstanding the concern that they may add to the prison population, as explained by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips.

The instrument introduces two new statutory aggravating features in determining the minimum term for murder: first, where the offender is engaged in controlling or coercive behaviour towards the victim; and, secondly, where the murder has involved sustained and excessive violence, sometimes referred to, in depressing jargon, as “overkill”. By contrast, importantly, it conversely explains a new mitigating factor, putting it on a statutory basis. It recognises that an offender’s culpability may be reduced where the victim has engaged in controlling or coercive behaviour towards the offender.

These additions reflect a long-overdue evolution in the way the criminal courts have recognised domestic abuse. The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 broadened our understanding of harm so that it embraced emotional, psychological and economic abuse, but, until now, the sentencing framework for murder has not fully reflected the complex dynamics that can exist in abusive relationships, whether in the context of the abuse suffered by victims before their death or the potential impact of long-term abuse on an offender’s culpability.

We on this side welcome the Government’s decision to bring forward these changes promptly—that is, ahead of the Law Commission’s broader review of homicide. These changes send a clear message: domestic murders are not isolated or inexplicable acts but, often, the tragic endpoint of long-standing abuse.

However, I note the concerns raised by the Sentencing Council, particularly around the interaction between new statutory factors and the existing, established judicial discretion to take such behaviour into account. The council has rightly warned that codifying these factors may risk creating ambiguity or inconsistency in sentencing, particularly if guidance in respect of it is not clear. There is also a risk that difficult evidential issues—in determining, for example, whether a relationship was “intimate” or whether coercive control occurred—could inadvertently complicate proceedings or place additional burdens on the families of victims or on prosecutors.

To mitigate this, we urge the Government to ensure that clear and robust sentencing guidelines are published alongside, and at the same time as, these changes; that the Government provide training for judges and practitioners to apply the new factors consistently; and that there is a commitment to monitor the impact of these amendments, particularly on the outcomes of trials and sentence lengths in domestic homicide cases.

To conclude, subject to those caveats, these regulations are positive, necessary and a welcome reform. They better align our sentencing framework with the reality of domestic abuse and send a strong signal that such crimes will be treated with the seriousness they deserve. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Removal of Prisoners for Deportation) Order 2025

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Monday 8th September 2025 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

As noble Lords will know, when this Government came to power, we inherited a prison system in crisis. From January 2023 to September 2024, the adult male prison estate routinely operated at over 99% of capacity. Had we exceeded maximum capacity, the consequences would have been unthinkable: with nowhere to put new prisoners, the police would have stopped making arrests and courts would have suspended trials. It could have led to the total breakdown of law and order, with criminals running amok on our streets.

This Government carried out a series of emergency release schemes to prevent that disaster. At the same time, we launched the independent sentencing review, with one clear goal: to make sure we never run out of prison places. The highly regarded former Lord Chancellor, David Gauke, and his expert panel published their recommendations on 22 May, and the Government accepted the majority of them in principle.

One of the specific areas we asked the review to look at was how we tackle the number of foreign national offenders in our prisons. They currently account for around 12% of our prison population—that is 10,772 foreign national offenders as of June this year—and cost British taxpayers millions of pounds every year.

The Government have made it very clear that foreign nationals should be in no doubt that the law will be enforced, and, where appropriate, we will work with the Home Office to pursue their removal. I am pleased to say that in our first year of government, we have removed 14% more foreign national offenders than in any year that the previous Government were in office. But we must go further and faster, in removing individuals who have broken our laws and who have no right to be here.

The draft instrument before the Committee today implements the sentencing review’s recommendation to reduce the minimum period that foreign national offenders have to spend in prison from 50% to 30% of the custodial term, and to increase the window in which they can be removed.

I thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its consideration of this instrument and its report.

As noble Lords will know, the Secretary of State has a power to remove eligible foreign national offenders—those serving a determinate sentence who are liable to be removed from the UK—from prison for the sole purpose of immediate deportation. This is referred to as the early removal scheme. Foreign national offenders serving indeterminate sentences, life and sentences of imprisonment for public protection are outside the scope of the scheme. Prisoners serving a sentence for a terrorism-related offence set out in Schedule 19ZA to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 are also excluded.

The power to remove a foreign national offender under this scheme is discretionary, and prison governors can refuse to remove individuals where it would undermine public confidence in the criminal justice system—for example, where there is clear evidence that the prisoner is planning further crime, including plans to evade immigration control and return to the UK or dealing in class A drugs in custody—or, finally, where there are serious public safety concerns regarding early removal.

Under the current rules, eligible offenders can be removed up to 18 months before the earliest release point of the sentence, provided they have served one-half of the requisite custodial period. This SI amends the Criminal Justice Act 2003 to allow foreign national offenders to be removed up to four years before the earliest release point of their sentence, subject to having served 30% of the requisite custodial period. This means eligible offenders can be removed from prison earlier.

At current removal rates, we expect this change to free up to approximately 500 prison spaces a year. Not only will it help us to safeguard prisons from collapse, with all the risks that poses to the public, it will also prevent taxpayers’ money being spent to keep foreign nationals in this country any longer than necessary.

Noble Lords will also know that the Government are seeking to go further still in the Sentencing Bill, which was introduced on 2 September, by removing any minimum custodial requirement, so foreign national offenders can be removed from prison immediately after they are sentenced. In line with the existing early removal scheme, this further change will apply to all foreign criminals serving a determinate sentence, except terrorists and prisoners serving indeterminate sentences, such as life, who will be excluded.

Until this change takes effect, this SI will ensure that foreign offenders with no right to be here can still be removed from prison for the purpose of deportation earlier. This will protect victims by ensuring that those individuals can never offend in this country again, and if they return in breach of a deportation order, they will be liable to serve the rest of their sentence.

Indeed, concern for the protection of victims is driving the changes we are making through the sentencing review and now the Bill as a whole. By ensuring that we never again risk running out of prison places, we will ensure that our criminal justice system can function effectively and sustainably, keeping us all safe.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his helpful and brief introduction to what is, in effect, a relatively simple instrument. It comes against a background, as he explained, of the appalling shortage of prison places that the Government inherited and that has only got worse, inevitably, during this Government. The overcrowding that has been the result of that shortage and the crisis that has given rise to the early release scheme have to be ended as quickly as possible; for example, the use of police cells where there has been simply no space for custody within our prisons is unacceptable, and there has been an unholy scramble for places for prisoners wherever they might be found across the estate. That is the inevitable result of a prison system running at 99% of capacity.

The consequences of the prison shortage have been outlined by the Minister, and the clear goal of the Government has been to reduce prison numbers over time, although they rightly accept that that will take a great deal of time. I know the Minister is concerned to concentrate on shorter sentences and rehabilitation, but I am grateful to him for putting the numbers on this instrument—that it is expected to save 500 prison places a year, which is a significant number.

However, in one sense, this instrument is directed at an easy target, because the deportation of convicted foreign offenders, who are liable to be deported anyway, is generally justified in principle for all the reasons the Minister gave and is widely supported. It may also be said that our national Government have little interest in what happens to deported prisoners after they are deported, so that if they leave our prisons earlier than envisaged at the time of sentence, that does little harm, but the instrument rightly excludes some serious offenders from the ambit of the reduction.

However, I note the regret of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee at the lack of review of the need for changes in this early removal scheme. The committee was concerned at the lack of information given to Parliament as to both the number of foreign national offenders likely to be affected by these changes and the treatment that such deported offenders would be likely to receive in their home countries following deportation. The committee reported that

“it would have been helpful for the EM to include background information … on FNO sentences and the treatment of deported prisoners in their home countries”.

It helpfully dug out a considerable quantity of additional information that was within the public domain that it found helpful, and it reported on that.

As a general point, the interest that the United Kingdom Government have in foreign national offenders should not cease altogether when such offenders are deported. At whatever stage, the Government and Parliament have an interest in considering the fate of deportees after they left this country and any continuing risk that they might present if they should return to the United Kingdom—or to United Kingdom citizens abroad, of course. Hence, the overall conclusion of the committee was that, while it recognised the urgency of the need to reduce the pressure on prison capacity, as we all do,

“the information provided with such instruments should … facilitate full scrutiny by Parliament. This means there should be a discussion of the risks as well as the benefits of the measures and adequate background information to understand the full effects; preferably, supported by an analysis of … similar changes”.

It is clearly the committee’s view that Parliament had not had that kind of information to the level of detail that we should have done.

I endorse that conclusion. However, subject to those caveats, I broadly support the measure to enable deportation at an earlier stage of prisoner sentences following sentence.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument today. I begin by affirming that we on this side strongly support the principle that foreign nationals who break the law in our country also break the trust that we accord them and that they have no right to remain here. This order is therefore a welcome step which builds upon reforms that the Conservative Government made in January 2024 to advance the point at which foreign nationals could be removed from prison and deported from 12 months to 18 months before the end of their custodial sentence. The instrument before us today expands on this, increasing the maximum removal period for foreign offenders to the later of either 30% of their custodial term or four years before their earliest release date. This is estimated to result in some foreign prisoners serving only 10% of their sentences before being deported, down from the current 25%. That, as I have said, is a welcome step, but it is not enough.

By the Government’s own admission, this reform will free up, at most, just 500 places. The taxpayer currently spends upwards of £500 million annually just on housing and feeding imprisoned individuals who neither need nor deserve to be here. Five hundred fewer places in our prisons accounts for just 5% of that total cost. That is before we consider the forecast growth in the prison population. Does the Minister really believe that these numbers reflect effective policy? Perhaps what is more worrying is that since this measure has been introduced, the Government have changed their tune. On 10 August this year, the Secretary of State announced the Government’s revised position that foreign offenders should be deported immediately after receiving a custodial sentence. Earlier in the year, we tabled an amendment to the Government’s Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill which called for the automatic removal of any foreign national convicted of an offence. While it is always gratifying to see the Government following our lead, their slowness to adopt this belated measure will have real-life impacts for the law-abiding people of this country. It will take time to implement and require more time-consuming legislation. In the meantime, more offenders are charged without the prospect of immediate deportation. The taxpayer will pay for the privilege, so I ask the Minister to lay out a timetable towards immediate deportations of convicted foreign nationals.

Similarly, there is nothing preventing the continuation of the endless cycle of appeals and repeals that cause delay. It seems as if every week a foreign criminal has his deportation order blocked under the doubtful guise of human rights. In the long term, without protections against human rights manipulation, this statutory instrument could end up seeing the same number of offenders removed each year as under current policy, just a little bit earlier. That is not effective policy. Can the Minister outline how this will be avoided?

That is why the Conservatives would disapply the Human Rights Act in all immigration-related cases. No delays or obstructions in legislation would be used for means for which they were not designed. Swift, effective removal is what we require.

To sum up, we believe that this statutory instrument is a first step, albeit a small one, towards the shared goal of the removal and deportation of foreign offenders.

European Convention on Human Rights

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Thursday 17th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

As the noble Lord rightly points out, there has been an immigration White Paper. In it, we have said that we will look to deliver a new framework to consider Article 8—the right to family life—and will bring forward legislation to clarify Article 8 rules so that fewer cases are treated as exceptional. This is a modification that we have committed to taking forth within our own domestic legislation. However, the more general point that the noble Lord makes is fundamentally misguided. We have hugely benefited from the ECHR in the 75 years of its existence. It needs to evolve. Of course, there are issues, which we acknowledge, but one point that many European and domestic judges have made to me is that the margin of appreciation, the latitude that individual states have within the existing rules, is wider than many of the states acknowledge themselves.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, in our view, trying to change the ECHR, which would require unanimity, would be as futile as it would be undesirable. However, on the Government’s immigration White Paper, particularly the Article 8 right to respect for private and family life, the margin of appreciation does, as the Minister mentioned, enable states to differ in how they implement the convention. Will the Minister confirm that UK legislation will seek to curtail reliance on exceptional circumstances only for legitimate and recognised convention aims such as national security, crime prevention, economic and social interests or protecting democracy?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I can give the confirmation that the noble Lord seeks. He sets out the case, as I think I did in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, but the reality is that this is just one aspect—it is the relationship with the ECHR that we are talking about—but there need to be a number of ways of tackling irregular immigration, which is a profound and difficult issue. We are doing that in parallel, as well as addressing the Article 8 issue.

Prisons: Early Release

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Murray, referred to “public confidence”. On the basis that the Government are right that early release schemes have been essential to save our prison system from collapse, would that not be the ultimate disaster for public confidence? As well as working on their response to the Leveson report, will the Government now urgently implement David Gauke’s proposals for a presumption against short prison sentences, for more community sentences and for more early release on licence? Should the Government not also encourage a review of the sentencing guidelines with a view to bringing prison sentences here down to the level of those imposed elsewhere in Europe?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The review that David Gauke and his panel undertook will form a very important part of the reform of the criminal justice system that we need. We need a sustainable criminal justice system, and that includes the review that Sir Brian Leveson has published today. On short sentences, it is important that the judiciary still has the power in exceptional circumstances to send people to prison for short sentences. Victims must come first, and the worst thing for victims would be for us to allow prisons to run out of places. We cannot run out of prison places, and the action that we are taking will ensure that we have a sustainable prison system.

Prisons: Mothers and Babies

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Monday 7th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, the six mother and baby units are successful. However, 17,000 children a year are separated from their mothers by imprisonment, harming both children and mothers. The impact of domestic abuse and drug addiction is overwhelming. Last Monday ITV News ran an article in which the noble Lord was interviewed and rightly described prison for many women as a “disaster”. So how quickly can we cut the use of prison for mothers of young children to a minimum and provide women offenders with the therapeutic environments they so badly need?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. He is exactly right: we need to do more and do it faster. That is why the Women’s Justice Board is acting very quickly and coming up with its answers in the next few months. For me, what is really important is the intensive supervision court model, which we are very enthusiastic about, especially the one in Birmingham that is just for female offenders. Instead of them going to prison, we offer the wraparound support services so that they can stay out of prison and stay in the community. This comes back to a subject that I am very passionate about, attachment. It is really important for mothers to be with their children so that they can gain the attachment that, if not secured in their early years, can cause significant problems later on. As someone who was brought up with hundreds of foster children in my life, I am well aware of the issues around attachment in young children.

Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-sentence Reports) Bill

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by paying tribute to the chairman of the Sentencing Council, Lord Justice Bill Davis, after the sad news that he passed away at the weekend. He made a significant contribution to criminal justice and I particularly recognise his work serving on the Sentencing Council, first as a judicial member between 2012 and 2015 and then as its chairman since 2022. The Lady Chief Justice recalled him yesterday as one of the very best criminal judges of his generation. I am conscious that many noble and noble and learned Lords will have known and worked closely with him. I take this opportunity, on behalf of the House, to extend our deep condolences to Lady Davis and his children and to all those who knew him.

I take this opportunity to extend my thanks to the many noble Lords who have contributed to debates on the Bill in this House. Despite its short length, it has prompted careful and detailed consideration from Members of this House, and I am grateful to noble Lords who have, throughout its passage, provided constructive challenge. I am grateful to the officials who have been involved in its preparation and passage. The Opposition Front Bench, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Wolfson, have engaged constructively on the Bill, for which I am grateful. I pay particular thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, who have all been generous with their time in both their scrutiny of the Bill and their engagement with me. Finally, I thank the team who have supported me on this Bill, in particular Katherine, James and Jack, to whom I am very grateful. I beg to move.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I add my note of sadness at the news of the death of Lord Justice William Davis recently and add my condolences to those of the Minister to his family upon his passing. He was a judge of great distinction. He led the Sentencing Council, which is the subject of this Bill, with very great distinction as well. He will be greatly missed.

Turning to the Bill, we made it clear that we did not agree with the Bill: we did not agree with the principle or that the proposed guidelines of the Sentencing Council threatened the notion of equality before the law. We believed, as is clear, that this was not a sensible use of emergency legislation and that the disagreement between the Sentencing Council and the Lord Chancellor should have been resolved without the need for legislation. We were concerned that the Bill had the potential to damage the Sentencing Council. In the event, we did not succeed in securing the withdrawal of the Bill, or in amending the Bill, which had Conservative support, so it will now become the law.

However, we can take two strong positives from the debate around this Bill. The first is the Government’s commitment to the Probation Service and to the importance of pre-sentencing reports in giving guidance to judges and providing consistency in sentencing. The commitment has been to having more reports of higher quality, backed up by increased resources. I thank the Minister for his kind words to me and others in opening this short debate; I say from these Benches what a credit he has been to his department and to this House in coming fresh to the House with his very strong commitment to the sentencing system and the Probation Service. His presence on the Front Bench has been a breath of fresh air for us all, and we are very grateful to him.

The second positive has been the recognition around this House of the enormous value of the Sentencing Council in giving independent, well-researched advice on sentencing to judges, with a view to promoting consistency not just in sentencing but in the approach to the factors that judges need to take into account in sentencing. I add my gratitude to Members around the House—both those with experience of acting in criminal cases and those with no experience of the criminal law or of law at all—who have stressed the importance of these issues to the development of the law and our criminal justice system, and, perhaps more importantly, to the maintenance of confidence in the criminal justice system in future.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the late Lord Justice William Davis. We learned of his death over the weekend with deep sadness. His integrity, clarity of thought and unwavering commitment to fairness made him a towering figure in the field of criminal justice. His loss will be felt across the entire legal and judicial community, although most immediately by his family, to whom we send sincere condolences.

From these Benches, I express our thanks to all those who contributed to this Bill in Committee and on Report. The quality of that debate, if I may respectfully say so, was exemplary, echoing and always meeting the high standards that this House sets when dealing in particular with matters of criminal justice, with the expertise we have on all sides of the Chamber.

These Benches offer our support for the principles underpinning this legislation. The more effective use of pre-sentence reports will encourage informed and consistent judicial discretion and lead to better sentencing outcomes, reducing reoffending, encouraging rehabilitation and serving the interests of public safety. While this Bill is therefore a very good first step, we look forward, together with other noble Lords around the Chamber, to other initiatives in this area. Sentencing remains a complex and sensitive area of the law because it touches individual lives and the life of the community. We believe that this Bill provides a strong foundation and are confident that it will be implemented to good effect. We therefore support the Bill and look forward to it being implemented as part of a justice system that is fairer, more consistent and more effective.

Finally, on a more personal note, the Minister noted that this was the first Bill which he has taken through the House. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, that we may disagree politically but these Benches recognise that the Minister not only shares a commitment to a fair and modern criminal justice system but has practical experience in this area. Where possible, we will of course work constructively together, as we did on this Bill.

Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-sentence Reports) Bill

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hardie (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, have not spoken before on the Bill. I understand the sentiment behind the noble Viscount’s amendment. As a former judge in Scotland, I do not demur from the advantage of having such reports. However, I wonder whether there is an element of confusion in the various amendments. In the sense that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, seemed to suggest, there may be confusion in the mind of the sentencer as to whether he or she can order a report.

I do not read this clause as being that. Clause 1(2) specifies that the guidelines about pre-sentence reports may not include provision framed by reference to different personal characteristics of an offender. The personal characteristics are defined in Clause 3 as including race, religion or belief, and cultural background. So, I would have thought that it is irrelevant to determining a sentence that someone is of a certain race, or adheres to a certain religion, or has a certain cultural background. What one wants to know is something about the upbringing of the individual, whether he or she was abused as a child, and whether there are other circumstances in his or her upbringing that would explain his or her behaviour. So I do not see the need for the amendments that simply reinforce the position that already exists.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, before turning to Amendment 2 in my name, I will make a number of points that are relevant to the general difficulty of this Bill, highlighted by all the amendments in this group, and relevant to the unsuitability of legislating for what the Sentencing Council may or may not recommend in guidelines as to when pre-sentence reports should or should not be required. I take the point just made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, that there is a distinction to be drawn between the guidelines and when a pre-sentencing report is to be required, but there is real scope for confusion, and that does concern us all.

When sentencing, effective judges must inevitably take into account the personal circumstances of individual offenders, alongside the nature of their offences, the requirement to punish and the need for deterrence. When taking into account those personal circumstances, they are bound to consider their different personal characteristics. So, the drafting of this Bill starts with a conflict that is, on analysis, almost impossible to resolve.

The Government tried to clarify what is meant by personal characteristics in an all-Peers letter just before Committee, in which the Minister cited the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, in the House of Lords as the precursor of the Supreme Court, when he said that

“the concept of ‘personal characteristic’ … generally requires one to concentrate on what somebody is, rather than what he is doing or what is being done to him”.

This might assist a court to consider in a judicial context what words may mean, but it does not necessarily help with the construction of the meaning of a Bill. No clear distinction can be drawn between what a person is by birth and what a person may have become by reason of life experience. For example, is a woman pregnant because of what she is or because of what has happened to her? Is a black person scarred by racism suffering because of what they are or because of what has happened to them?

That difficulty is compounded by the fact that the list of personal characteristics in Clause 1(3) is non-exhaustive. They are said to

“include, in particular … race … religion or belief

or

“cultural background”.

But that does not exclude anything else—a point that has been made by my noble friend Lord Beith and by others throughout the discussion of this Bill. The use of the phrase “framed by reference to” was also rightly criticised by my noble friend Lady Hamwee as hopelessly uncertain. That was in the context of her proposing her Amendment 3, but it runs through the whole of this issue of personal characteristics.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, after “not” insert “without good cause”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment, together with Lord Marks’ amendment to page 1, line 7, would allow the Sentencing Council more discretion in preparing sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports in order to avoid inequality of sentencing outcomes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his response. However, I do not believe that the proposed guidelines that the Bill seeks to make unlawful were inimical to equality before the law. Nor do I believe that the Bill advances—indeed, I believe it is hostile to—the attempt of the Sentencing Council to advise judges as to how to address the inequality of outcomes that bedevils our criminal justice system. My amendments are an attempt to assist in the addressing of that inequality, so I wish to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 2.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

5: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert—
“(4B) Sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports must promote greater use of such reports as part of sentencing, in particular when the sentencing decision is likely to involve a choice between a community penalty and imprisonment.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to encourage increased use of pre-sentence reports.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, in the first group, we considered what we regard as the unsatisfactory nature of this Bill. My Amendment 5 is directed to ensuring that guidelines promote the use of pre-sentence reports as a general rule. As has been mentioned, there has been a very serious decline in the use of pre-sentence reports. As the Minister said in Committee and others have said today—notably, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham—there has been a 44% reduction in the number of pre-sentence reports ordered and produced over the last decade. That flows in part from the effect of a recognised lack of resources for the Probation Service to produce these reports over that period.

Not only that, but the reduction in numbers has been accompanied by a recent decline in the quality of the reports produced by the courts. Although, as the noble Lord, Lord Meston, said, some years back there may have been an improvement in the quality of pre-sentence reports, contemporary evidence suggests that there has been a significant decline over the last 10 years. I do not believe that that decline is attributable to a lack of commitment on the part of individual probation officers. However, we should recognise that the demoralisation that has taken place in the Probation Service has been very serious indeed. That has been partly the effect of the ill-starred changes to and reorganisation of the whole of the probation services, initiated by the previous Government. The later reversal, while welcome, merely proved that the whole experiment was profoundly unsettling and damaging to the probation services as a whole.

But the declining quality of pre-sentence reports has been principally the result of a lack of resources allocated to the production of individual reports, particularly the time probation officers have had to prepare them. These reports need to be thoughtful, and thoroughly and individually researched, with a real assessment of the most appropriate sentences in individual cases. The reports need to consider the individual circumstances of offenders with care, and officers need the time to do that. There needs to be much more opportunity for officers carefully to consider individually suitable community sentences and to research their availability. They need to have the time and resources to consider the conditions that might be appropriately attached to such community sentences, along with the employment and housing, and opportunities and risks, that need to be considered in individual cases.

In discussing these issues, we should not lose sight of the central features of sentencing hearings. Pre-sentence reports are the only real independent sources of information for judges about the personal circumstances of offenders and of the possible disposals and their suitability. Judges cannot get this assistance from speeches in mitigation by defence advocates, however well-researched and argued they might be. That is primarily, of course, because such speeches are delivered on instructions—the instructions of the offenders the advocates represent—and are not, therefore, independent. But it is also because the Probation Service has an unrivalled expertise in advising judges on appropriate sentencing. Given the resources and training that dedicated probation officers receive, they can make all the difference to sentencing and can help offenders to make their best efforts to turn their lives around. This is not only a civilised and humanitarian outcome; in turning offenders away from crime, and in reducing reoffending and the huge personal costs to victims and families associated with it, it brings substantial societal benefit as well.

The case for this amendment is that we need to return to the principle that once underlay pre-sentencing reports in practice, as well as in theory, and certainly in every case where the sentencing decision was between custody and community sentences: that the judge should have pre-sentence reports of the highest quality possible in all such cases. During the course of the noble Lord’s tenure as Prisons Minister, he has made it clear that it is his ambition to bring more investment into the Probation Service and to increase the number of probation officers—which should also improve, I would add, the retention of probation officers within the service and raise standards generally. For us, this is a crucial issue.

I am very grateful to the Minister for his constructive engagement with me and others during the passage of the Bill. If he can convince us from the Dispatch Box—I am very hopeful that he will—that his ambition is also the Government’s ambition for the Probation Service and pre-sentence reports, I will not press my amendment to a vote. However, the converse also follows. I await what the Minister has to say in response. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

Amendment 5 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, would require sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports to encourage their greater use, particularly in cases where a sentencing decision is likely to involve a choice between a community or custodial sentence. I am grateful to the noble Lord for moving this amendment. He was right to ask how we can encourage greater use of pre-sentence reports and ensure that we have sufficient probation resource to do so, and he made exactly the right points in speaking about the importance of pre-sentence reports. I am grateful to him for the discussions that we have had since Committee; I would welcome continued engagement with him on this issue.

I hope that the noble Lord will not mind me giving quite a full answer to his question. Although he asked the right question, I would argue that there are other levers beyond sentencing guidelines that are the better place to solve the problem. We must ensure that we have a Probation Service that is properly funded and staffed, and which has the tools it needs to deliver. We must also balance the need for sufficient and thorough pre-sentence reports with the other crucial roles that the Probation Service plays. We want more, and better-quality, PSRs.

I am mindful that the noble Lord tabled a similar amendment in Committee, where I took the opportunity to set out the steps that the Lord Chancellor and I are taking to improve the Probation Service’s capacity to deliver timely and high-quality reports. I would like to reassure noble Lords further on the steps that we are taking to support our Probation Service; if they will permit me, I will endeavour to give a thorough answer as to what the Government are doing.

First, we are increasing staffing levels. We recruited more than 1,000 new trainee probation officers last year and we aim to recruit a further 1,300 this year.

Secondly, I am delighted that we have announced a significant increase to the budget for the Probation Service and other community services for offenders. It will rise by up to £700 million by 2028-29, representing an increase of around 45% by the final year of the spending review period. This is a very significant investment and demonstrates the Government’s commitment to this vital service. I am sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, will agree that this is needed to fund probation in a way that ensures that our probation officers can do the job they came into the service to do.

Thirdly, I am convinced that a significant part of the answer sits with new technology. The Lord Chancellor and I recently hosted a tech round table with industry experts to make sure that we are asking the right questions and working collaboratively on the best solutions. Let me give noble Lords a sense of some of the transformative impact that we are already exploring in terms of technology.

I am passionate about ensuring that probation officers are able to do the job they came in to do. For probation, as with every other public service, new technology has the potential to be really transformative. We are exploring the benefits of AI in a number of areas. We are piloting the use of transcription and summarisation tools to reduce administrative load. We are developing algorithms to support decision-making, risk assessment, case prioritisation and operational planning. AI-powered search is being explored to better support the information gathering needed for report writing. All these have the potential to save significant practitioner administration time and to improve quality, allowing probation officers to focus on face-to-face time with offenders, to support them to change, rather than on administrative tasks.

Technology can also transform how probation staff can bring the right information together to assess and manage offenders. For staff writing pre-sentence reports, we are rolling out a new service called “Prepare a case for sentence”, which links probation systems with the court’s common platform and gives probation staff in the courts the earliest possible notice of cases that are being listed, as well as new templates so that reports are timely and give the courts what they need.

We are also investing in the complete redesign of the approach to the assessment of risks, needs and the strengths of the people on probation and in prison. The resulting sentence and risk management plans will combine a new assessment and planning approach that incorporates the latest desistance research, supported by a new digital service. This new service will reduce the resource burden on front-line staff and ensure that assessment and planning practice better supports individuals, thereby achieving better rehabilitation and public protection outcomes.

Noble Lords will recognise that, although investment in staff numbers and technology are vital foundations, it is nothing without also supporting staff to have the right skills to spot risks and needs and to communicate those to the court. Our staff have access to a wide range of learning and development, including modules relating to court-specific roles and skills, ensuring that they are well equipped to work in this setting. The better trained they are, the better PSRs they will present.

The Probation Service has a dedicated court case assessment tool for line managers to quality assure pre-sentence reports. His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Probation also completes regular inspections of probation regions, with an assessment of court work included as a key component of this. Furthermore, the Probation Service seeks detailed feedback from sentencers on the quality of reports through an annual judicial survey. Through all this investment and improvement, our aim is that, whenever a court orders a pre-sentence report, it can be confident that it is based on the fullest information and a thorough analysis of risks and needs; and that it answers the right questions the court is wanting to understand.

I recognise that the noble Lord’s amendment now specifically refers to scenarios where a sentencer will likely need to decide between imposing a community or a custodial sentence. I completely agree with the noble Lord that pre-sentence reports can be particularly helpful in these kinds of cases. These reports provide sentencers with an effective assessment of risk and targeted assessments of the individual’s needs. This then confidently articulates suitable sentencing proposals that balance public protection, punishment and rehabilitation. In doing so, they will consider a range of disposal options, setting out the best use of credible community sentences where appropriate.

I hope that it will offer some reassurance to the noble Lord that the revised imposition guideline already includes relevant texts in this spirit, which the Bill does not impact. Specifically, it states:

“A pre-sentence report can be pivotal in helping the court decide whether to impose a custodial or community order and, where relevant, what particular requirements or combination of requirements are most suitable for an individual offender on either a community order or a suspended custodial sentence”.


Of course, it is for the sentencer to decide whether to order a pre-sentence report, and there is an existing obligation on courts to obtain a pre-sentence report unless they consider it unnecessary. The Bill does not change that.

I reiterate my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, for raising the importance of pre-sentence reports and increasing their use. As I have set out, the Government are committed to ensuring greater funding, capacity and efficiency for the Probation Service. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his helpful and detailed response. As I hoped he would, he has given an outline of the Government’s very real commitment to more and better pre-sentence reports. He has also detailed the considerable investment that the Government propose to make in the Probation Service and in the production of such reports. I completely agree with him as to the future role of technology in the Probation Service and in the production of these reports. In that spirit, I respectfully ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.

Independent Sentencing Review

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the measures announced by the Government on 22 May are presented under the guise of necessity, but they risk eroding public confidence in our criminal justice system. This country has always stood for a system of justice that is firm and fair and can be trusted by the public, yet some of the proposals fall short of that standard. If the Government are truly committed to ensuring that violent and repeat offenders are properly punished, it is entirely within their means to create the prison capacity required. Instead, we are asked to accept a series of deeply troubling changes on the grounds that there is no alternative.

What do these reforms entail? It is a reduction in time served, including a proposal for many offenders to spend merely a third of their sentence in custody. Let us consider just one example. A burglar sentenced to 18 months and entering a plea of guilty might serve just 11 weeks in prison. That is scarcely credible as a deterrent, let alone for a justice system. Such outcomes can only erode confidence in our penal system. And what is to replace custodial punishment? We have heard of an expanded use of electronic tagging. While we support the appropriate use of technology, let us be candid: electronic tags are not a substitute for custody.

As mentioned by my right honourable friend Robert Jenrick in the other place, the Ministry of Justice’s own pilot scheme showed that 71% of tagged individuals breached their curfew. Is that the kind of protection that we are offering a law-abiding public? Meanwhile, over 17,000 individuals are currently on remand awaiting trial, a number that is forecast to rise still further. In the light of this, will the Government now act on the Lady Chief Justice’s call for additional court sitting days so that these cases can be heard and justice delivered without undue delay?

What of capacity? Under the previous Government, we delivered the largest expansion to the prison estate since the Victorian era. The Government’s prison capacity strategy mentions the construction of a mere 250 rapid deployment cells. That is hardly adequate. When Texas undertook similar reforms in the 1990s—the very model on which this plan is said to be based—it built more than 75,000 prison places.

The Government’s present approach to justice simply cannot inspire public confidence. We must ensure, and indeed the public expect, that the most prolific and dangerous offenders face the consequences of their actions, so I will press the Minister on several critical points. First, following the announcements made in the other place on 22 May, can he confirm without equivocation that violent sexual offenders and those who have committed crimes against children will be excluded from the early release schemes?

Secondly, given the review’s emphasis on reducing custodial sentences, what assurances can the Government provide that public confidence in the justice system, particularly among victims and their families, will not be undermined by these changes?

Thirdly, does the Minister agreed that electronic tagging cannot substitute for secure custody, particularly in cases involving violent or high-risk offenders?

Fourthly, what assessment have the Government made of the capacity of our prisons in light of the sentencing proposals, and will they commit to a robust and credible prison building programme that reflects the scale of these proposed reforms?

Finally, it is deeply regrettable that the voices of victims and their families appear to have been overlooked in this review. Can the Minister clarify why the Independent Sentencing Review appears to have taken such limited input from victims’ groups? Will the Government commit to a public consultation to ensure their voices are heard before implementing these recommendations?

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, unlike the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, we welcome the Independent Sentencing Review. We also applaud the appointment of David Gauke to lead it. He was an inspired and independent choice and, despite some reservations with the report, we regard the tenor of the review as brave, principled and, most importantly, evidence based.

We also agree with the Government in their Statement that the previous Administration are largely responsible for the crisis in our prisons—our running out of prison space, the dilapidation of our prison estate, the ineffective approach to rehabilitation, to community sentences and to the Probation Service, and the continuing pervasive recidivism. These are the factors that got us into this mess, and they are largely the previous Government’s fault. The irony is that the previous Government claimed to be dedicated to law and order, just as the noble and learned Lord does now. Well, that is not their legacy.

Given the present position, on present trends and given the prison building plans—they are extensive, but there will inevitably be delays in their implementation—can the Government realistically hope to avoid the kind of stopgap emergency responses that we have found necessary over the last year?

Moving on, the proposals for three-part prison sentences and an earned progression model are persuasive. It is interesting that they originated in Texas—not a state known for soft liberalism. My understanding is that the Texan Government believed that these crime reduction measures would save the taxpayers’ dollar. Have the Government yet estimated the possible cost savings from these proposals overall?

We agree that we desperately need the increased investment in probation and probably even more investment. We regard the commitment to more tagging and community monitoring as clearly sensible. But I would be grateful if the Minister could say how far it is envisaged that tagged offenders will be confined to their homes, and what plans there are for work, education and training for offenders while they are tagged and under supervision.

Capping recalls to prison should prevent the use of recall to respond to relatively minor breaches of conditions with extended and disproportionate prison terms, but how will the individual length of these short recalls be determined? We on these Benches, along with the majority of experts in the field, have been arguing for years for a reduction in the use of short prison sentences, and I can see the argument for leaving some judicial discretion in place in certain circumstances. I see the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, nodding, and I know that he has had experience of short sentencing in his time as a magistrate. But we also agree that victims of domestic abusers and stalkers, and cases of breaches of protection orders, call for particular protection for victims. Nevertheless, may we have an assurance that, in practice, this reform will give the presumption against short sentences that we have long been seeking?

We accept the argument for making community sentences tougher and for intensive supervision courts, but we seek an assurance that the primary purpose of community sentences will continue to be to rehabilitate offenders and enable them to turn their lives around. We have concerns about the pilot of so-called medication to manage problematic sexual arousal, with its rather troubling overtones of chemical castration. Will the Government commit to careful monitoring of the long-term effects of such treatment?

Finally, we share the Government’s commitment to supporting victims, and that shines through this Statement. My noble friend Lady Brinton has been at the forefront of securing more compassionate treatment of victims, and the exclusion zones proposed will be an important new protection. But may we also have a commitment to making the criminal justice system more approachable and less traumatic for victims, particularly in cases of sexual violence? We have had some progress in this area but not nearly enough, hence the loss of so many cases. That would be a helpful complement for the Government’s principled commitment to ensure that women are less often sent to prison, and that women defendants are more compassionately treated by the criminal justice system.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, when this Government asked David Gauke and his independent expert panel to conduct a review of sentencing, its task was clear: our country must never run out of prison places again. I put on record my appreciation for all the panel’s work, including that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, who is well known and respected in this place.

In considering its proposals, the Independent Sentencing Review has followed the evidence and looked at examples of good practice across the world. It is clear to me, as someone who has been searching for answers to these well-known problems for over 20 years, that the panel has carefully and methodically approached the challenges head-on. This review sets out major reform. It is an important moment for the justice sector, and one we cannot afford to ignore.

As the Lord Chancellor has set out, once again our prisons are running out of space. Let me be clear that we must always have space in our prisons for dangerous offenders. Despite building as quickly as we can, demand for prison places will still outstrip supply by 9,500 cells in early 2028. If our prisons collapse, courts must suspend trials, police must halt arrests and crime goes unpunished; we face the total breakdown of law and order in this country. Yet the previous Government, over 14 years, added just 500 places to our prison estate. At the same time, sentence lengths rose. It now falls to this Government to end this cycle of crisis.

That starts by building prisons. Since taking office just 11 months ago, this Government have opened 2,400 places. Last month, the Lord Chancellor announced an additional £4.7 billion for prison building, putting us on track to hit 14,000 places by 2031. This is the largest expansion since the Victorian era. However, the investment is vital, but it is still not sufficient. We need to do more. We cannot just build our way out of this crisis. This Government have been clear: we also need to both reform sentencing and end the cycle of reoffending.

The report’s central recommendation—the move to a three-part sentence called the “earned progression model”—means that offenders will not necessarily leave prison at an automatic point. Instead, their release date will be determined by their behaviour. Under the new model, offenders serving standard determinate sentences with an automatic release of 40% or 50% will now earn their release. The earliest possible release point will be at the one-third mark, with additional time added for bad behaviour. For those serving standard determinate sentences with an automatic release point of 67%, their earliest possible release point will be at 50%, with additional time added for bad behaviour. If they follow prison rules and behave well, they will earn an earlier release; if they do not, they will be locked up for longer. It is that simple.

That behaviour-based approach echoes the model that the Lord Chancellor witnessed in Texas. I have personally been fascinated by the Texan model for a number of years and have followed the outcomes achieved very closely, as the noble Lord, Lord Marks, clearly has as well. If you are a prison geek like me, this is what you seek: examples of what works—and it clearly does work. Its reforms, which started in 2007, have led to 16 prisons closing, to fewer victims and to lower costs of reoffending.

To address the concerns of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, about these reforms applying to dangerous offenders, I assure noble Lords that these reforms will not apply to those serving extended determinate sentences, which includes the most dangerous offenders. I confirm that no sentences being served for terror offences or state threat sentences will be eligible for early release from prison. I can also confirm that the Government engaged with police colleagues and other stakeholders across the criminal justice system prior to the publication of the review, as did David Gauke. We wanted to ensure that we had a joined-up approach. The full detail of these policies, including an impact assessment, will accompany the forthcoming legislation.

Noble Lords have rightly raised questions about what these reforms will mean for victims, particularly victims of domestic abuse. My priority is clear: everything we do is in pursuit of a justice system that serves victims. If our prisons collapse, it is victims who pay the price. Our first responsibility is to make sure that this does not happen, which is why we consulted widely, as has David Gauke, with victims’ groups.

The review recommends several important measures, including the way we identify domestic abusers at sentencing so that we can monitor and manage them more effectively. We recognise how vital it is to make sure that we know who all domestic abuse offenders are, even when their offences are not obviously linked to domestic abuse. We also welcome the recommendation to expand the use of specialist domestic abuse courts. I also clarify for the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that the review did not recommend entirely abolishing short sentences. Under our proposed reforms, judges will retain the discretion to hand down short custodial sentences in exceptional circumstances, and I note that David Gauke’s review specifically references this, including giving respite to victims of domestic abuse.

To improve transparency in the system, we will also extend the provision of free sentencing remark transcripts for victims of rape and serious sexual offences. All these are necessary steps that I believe show that this Government have recognised the unique harms caused by violence against women and girls. Further steps will be outlined when, in the summer, we publish our 10-year cross-government strategy on violence against women and girls.

Noble Lords raised important questions about public protection and the role of probation. The Government recognise probation’s important role. In fact, it is more than important; it is vital. That is why we are increasing funding for probation by up to £700 million by the final year of the spending review—an increase of 45%. That will allow us to tag and monitor tens of thousands more offenders, which the evidence has shown cuts crime and makes our streets safer.

If we are to see more punishment in the community, it is essential that it works. That is why we are looking at new severe financial penalties that would see offenders’ assets seized even if they are not knowingly linked to crime, and expand the use of punishments, such as travel and driving bans, that would curtail an offender’s liberty.

I particularly draw noble Lords’ attention to the recommendation to expand intensive supervision courts. These impose tough conditions, including treatment requirements, with offenders regularly brought before a judge to monitor their compliance. If they do not play ball, the offenders get sent straight to prison. Intensive supervision courts work, especially with prolific offenders. Visiting the court in Birmingham remains the best day I have had in this job—I saw how it helps turn lives away from crime.

I also draw noble Lords’ attention to David Gauke’s recommendations relating to female offenders. My interest in prison started many years ago, when coming face to face with the realities of many women in our prisons. Too many women are victims of considerable trauma and abuse. They are vulnerable, addicted and mentally ill. Many are also mothers, and their imprisonment has life-changing impacts not only for them but for their children. Around two-thirds of female offenders sentenced to custody receive short sentences, and around the same number are victims of domestic abuse. I proudly chair the Women’s Justice Board, which we set up last year with the aim of closing a women’s prison and addressing the specific needs of this cohort. I am pleased to note that the review’s recommendations on short, deferred and suspended sentences will reduce the number of women in prison. This is an important step towards that objective.

I will inform noble Lords about some of the other areas of our focus to address the capacity crisis. The number of offenders recalled to prison has doubled since 2018, putting increasing pressure on the system. Today’s figure is around 13,000. The sentencing review makes sensible recommendations to address this increase, and it is suggested that, where offenders do not comply with the conditions of their release, recall to prison should be capped at 56 days. We have agreed to this policy in principle and will set out the precise details of these changes when we legislate.

In conclusion, in our response to the sentencing review, this Government will take the steps necessary to end the enduring capacity crisis we inherited and end the cycle of reoffending. To do that, we must agree with others that we have to build prisons on a historic scale, deport foreign national offenders faster than ever and speed up our courts. But we also must reform sentencing in a way that puts the justice system on a more sustainable footing. We now have the right ideas, the long-term funding and a Government determined to resolve this long-term crisis for good. I invite noble Lords to engage with me as we pursue this much-needed reform.

Legal Aid Agency: Cybersecurity Incident

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Tuesday 20th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, while the Government Benches may criticise the role of successive Governments in preventing cyberattacks, we must not lose sight of where the true blame lies. The primary responsibility for this deeply troubling incident rests with the malicious individuals who orchestrated it.

This was not merely a digital intrusion; it was a direct assault on some of the most vulnerable members of our society. The data accessed is, in many cases, highly sensitive—it includes medical and other personal records—and the scale and nature of the information compromised over a period, apparently, from 2010, may mark this as one of the more serious data breaches that the Government have suffered in recent years.

Given the gravity of the situation, will the Minister confirm how many individuals have been affected? How are the Government supporting the individuals whose data has been exposed? Is he able to confirm the possible motive and identity of the attackers? Has there, for example, been any form of ransom demand from those who perpetrated this act? We welcome the involvement of the National Crime Agency and the National Cyber Security Centre. Their expertise will be essential. Clearly, it is imperative that those responsible for this breach are held to account and brought to justice.

Significant concerns remain regarding the Government’s handling of this matter. I therefore seek clarity from the Minister on a number of issues. Why were Parliament and the public not informed immediately when the breach was discovered on 23 April? We now understand that the data access may include information dating back to 2010, as I said before, and that over 2 million records may have been compromised. The delay of almost a month before this was made public may have prevented individuals taking timely steps to protect themselves from potential risks. Was there a failure to properly appreciate the seriousness of this breach?

Further, can the Minister update the House on the status of the operational systems that are vital for processing legal aid and payments to legal professionals? If these systems are not fully restored, how can we expect to return to full functionality? It may seem odd to talk about payment of legal aid to lawyers but, of course, those working in the fields of criminal law and family law, which are severely underfunded in many respects, will find the cash flow from the legal fund vital to their continuing activities. It is therefore important that that issue should also be addressed.

We heard in the other place that the Government believe that the incident has been contained. How did the Government arrive at that conclusion, and could the Minister explain to the House what is meant by “contained”? Will he confirm whether the Ministry of Justice has conducted or intends to conduct a comprehensive risk assessment of its wider digital infrastructure? Will similar assessments be made in other departments to safeguard against future vulnerabilities?

I also ask the Minister to ensure that Parliament receives regular and transparent updates as the investigation progresses. It is critical that we and members of the public should be informed clearly and promptly about the consequences of this breach and how it is being addressed. The breach itself represents a significant failure in the protection of our justice system’s digital infrastructure. That is liable to undermine public trust and raises serious concerns about data security and transparency, so I ask the Government to respond with urgency and openness to this issue.

Finally, I will raise a question about the devolved Administrations. For example, Scotland has its own legal aid structure, as, I believe, Northern Ireland does also, but those structures in turn depend on data from the United Kingdom—for example, access to social security data. Have they been impacted by this event? If so, what liaison has there been with the devolved Administrations to try to minimise the difficulties that they may have been caused by this data breach? I am obliged.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, this cyberattack and its result have exposed the lamentable insecurity of the Legal Aid Agency data systems. The ramifications are serious. The personal information that goes into legal aid applications and is held by legal aid providers includes much highly confidential material, which can be used by criminals not just to embarrass but to defraud and, in some cases, harass applicants for legal aid. We are told that the attackers in this case accessed residential addresses, contact details, dates of birth, and employment and financial data—indeed, much of the material that identity checkers seek and criminals could profit from. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, said, it appears to have affected 2 million items of data and legal aid applications going back as far as 2010. In addition, as became clear in the House of Commons, that information would have included sensitive medical information. Indeed, that must be right, because many applicants for legal aid would include such information with their applications. Can the Minister say whether there are plans to establish a dedicated helpline or other support systems, and if so what support systems, for individuals who may seek advice or protection in the light of this attack?

Of course, our first condemnation is for the callous criminality of the attackers, whose actions exposed so many vulnerable individuals to risk. These cyberattacks appear, according to the Minister in the other place, to have come from organised crime. It would be helpful for the Minister, so far as possible and without jeopardising security, to give an account to the House of what steps the Ministry of Justice takes routinely and has taken in the light of this case to protect the data of those seeking to access legal aid.

This question is similar to one asked by the noble and learned Lord: will the MoJ carry out a full independent inquiry into this attack, and what can be done to restore public confidence in its future cybersecurity arrangements? We understand the need for the Legal Aid Agency’s systems to go offline in the short term, as they have, but can the Government say how long the shutdown of online services is likely to last and how far the legal aid system will be impacted through delays and in reduced ability to deal with its workload?

We should not underestimate the degree to which the MoJ’s IT systems are antiquated, inefficient, insecure and, frankly, unfit for purpose. We on these Benches agree that that results from a neglect of the system over years under the preceding Administration. As the Statement rightly points out, the Law Society has been complaining for years about the outdatedness of our legal aid IT systems. The £20 million promised for updating the agency’s systems will help. However, regrettably, I worry that there is some complacency about the sentence in the Statement that reads:

“At this stage, we believe that the breach is contained to the Legal Aid Agency’s systems; there are no indications that other parts of the justice system have been impacted”.


Can the Minister say whether the Government will now institute a survey of current IT systems across the department to consider their security? Will the department also institute a system of regular cybersecurity audits for the future, to ensure robust defence of its digital systems and to prevent recurrence of this breach?

More widely, this event should act as a wake-up call for government as a whole to investigate how far its IT systems can provide the public with a high standard of data security. We hope that the promised cybersecurity and resilience Bill will bring some improvement, but we will not keep citizens’ data secure without investing the necessary resources. The reality is that we are working with old and inefficient systems that, frankly, grow creakier and creakier, just as the ingenuity and criminality of the potential attackers becomes ever more sophisticated, not least as the value of personal data rises and the potential for its abuse becomes ever greater.

The Statement rightly reminds us that every organisation is at risk from this kind of criminal behaviour and government is not exempt. As a vital part of the social compact, it is a responsibility of government to keep the personal data it holds on individuals secure. If government fails to live up to that responsibility, it rightly forfeits public trust and we concerned are to know, from the Government, how they intend to retain that trust.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

I thank both the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord for their questions. I will endeavour to answer them as fully as I can. I say at the outset that I share their sense of concern about this breach. It is undoubtedly very serious—one of the more serious ones that have happened to Governments in recent years. I agree, of course, with the point that the noble and learned Lord made, that the primary responsibility is with the criminals who themselves undertook this hacking of the LAF systems.

I want to check and correct one point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen. He spoke about medical records. As far as we are aware, there are no medical records contained within this system. There is other information available, which is, of course, a great cause for concern, but there are no medical records that we are aware of.

The noble and learned Lord asked when Ministers were first made aware of this breach. The departmental staff stood up an immediate operational response upon being made aware and ministerial colleagues and I have been updated throughout. There is a cross-departmental response under way. But it is fair to say that the seriousness of the breach became evident only some time after we were made aware of the initial breach. It was when the situation worsened that it was decided to put the information in the public domain and report the incident to Parliament.

Noble Lords asked how many people have been affected. We have not put forward a number as such. However, they are right to say that we are talking about all the data going back to 2010. That is many thousands of people. The nature of the data is, indeed, personal and people need to take remedial action if they have had interactions with the Legal Aid Agency to make sure that their data is not compromised. So, if people try to contact them on numbers they do not recognise and so forth, they need to be suspicious and careful.

Another central question was about what the Government are advising people to do if they think they may be victims of this theft of data. The primary port of contact will be the providers themselves—the lawyers and barristers who have been using the Legal Aid Agency. They will be in a better position to advise the people who may be victims. However, if we are made aware of individual people who are particularly vulnerable, the MoJ or the Legal Aid Agency will also endeavour to contact them directly. But the primary source of information will be from the providers themselves.

The noble and learned Lord asked me to comment on the nature of the attack. I cannot do that because there is a criminal investigation under way. I will not comment or speculate on the motive either.

Both noble Lords asked about the current operational system. The current system is offline. We hope to get it online as soon as possible, but I am not in a position to give any commitment on that front. I can say that there are systems in place to ensure that the providers themselves will get paid, so that they can continue to work, but it will be a reduced method of payment. I do not mean that the amount of money is less but there will be less systemisation within the payment, if I may put it like that. Nevertheless, the payments will be made in the immediate future.

I reassure noble Lords that all the various government agencies have been informed about this. There is an ongoing risk assessment and there will be an update to Parliament when appropriate.

I can also tell the noble and learned Lord that the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland have been informed and are well aware of this. Although, as he rightly observed, they have stand-alone systems, there is overlap between the two systems. So, although their own systems will not be affected by this, it may be that they will have more restricted access to data from the Legal Aid Agency, which covers England and Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Marks, asked about a full independent inquiry. I cannot make that commitment, but I can absolutely say that this is being taken extremely seriously across government. There has been a review of systems in other parts of government and, as far as we know, there are no similar hacking attacks in other parts of government, although of course one should not be complacent about these things. I am absolutely sure that these reviews of the other systems will be ongoing, just to check that no future hacks become apparent.

I do not think it is fair for the noble Lord, Lord Marks, to say that there was a degree of complacency in the statement that we believe the breach is contained; that is an honestly held belief. The many professionals involved in containing this particular breach, but also looking across government, are very acutely aware of how systems need to be updated and kept under review, and there needs to be investment. The noble Lord mentioned the sum of money the Government are going to invest, but it is worth repeating the point made by my honourable friend Sarah Sackman that this breach came to light only because of the extra money we are currently putting into the system. It would not have come to light without that additional investment. But, of course, we want to go further, and we need to go further to make sure that the systems are updated as far as possible.

I do not want to make the obvious political points about the legacy systems. I think we all understand the position we are in. Nevertheless, this is a serious matter, we are not at the end of the road yet and I absolutely undertake that we will keep Parliament informed as the situation develops.