Universal Credit: Managed Migration

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his positive response to these regulations. I appreciate the frustration of noble Lords who feel that they seem to have come late in the day. As I said, the key reason for that relates to the judgment, which we needed to respond to. We needed to get it right. The judgment said that there was an unintended consequence and we were not being quite fair in how we were treating people in terms of the severe disability premium. We are really keen to get that right. From tomorrow, we can start working on how we can support those people, backdating their pay and so on to ensure that they are properly supported financially.

I want to be very positive about universal credit and about how the pilot will help more people into work. It is really important to stress that managed migration will open up the world of work for thousands and deliver financial support for those whose circumstances have not changed. The good news stories that our department reads about, listens to and sees on our videos and on social media on a daily basis are very different from some of the scaremongering that has gone on over the many months and years during which universal credit has been developed. It is fantastic when one meets people who feel for the first time an extraordinary sense of dignity and pride, and a sense of “can do”—a phrase used by the person who will become our Prime Minister tomorrow. That is really important, because these are people whose families, sometimes over generations, have not worked. They have lived in families who do not understand what the word “work” means and they have had no sense of self-worth. Now, they have that and it is fabulous. Therefore, I hope that the right reverend Prelate will support—

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am in full flight here.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Does the Minister accept that this Government were not the first to understand the importance of getting people into work? If she goes back just a few years in history to previous Governments, she will see that it was a Labour Government who started the process of engagement with people, rather than leaving them to rot on disability benefits. The game plan of the noble Baroness’s Government was to push people on to disability benefits so they would not count as part of the unemployment statistics. It was only when a Labour Government came in that programmes such as New Deal and many others were started.

[Baroness Buscombe]

One reason I became a Conservative was that there was an incredible advertisement in 1979 that said, “Labour Isn’t Working”. It showed lines and lines of people outside what we then called the employment exchange. That was a long time ago, but in 2010—the noble Lord knows this—20% of working-age households were still entirely workless. We have got that down to 13.9%. It is still not good enough but we are doing all we can. I accept that in the past the party opposite encouraged people into work but we feel that this reform has made a huge difference. A thousand people have entered work every day since 2010, and that is an incredible legacy. The reality is that we have record employment and extraordinarily low unemployment. Indeed, I am rather proud that unemployment among women is lower than it is among men. We are working hard to encourage as many people as possible to contribute to the country they live in and to feel proud that they can work for and support their families.

In terms of the two-child policy, I say to the right reverend Prelate that I have made it clear several times at the Dispatch Box, and I will make it very clear again, that we believe strongly that people who would like to have more than two children must make the same tough decisions as everyone else and ask themselves whether they can support those children in the same way as people who do not turn daily to the state for support. My children’s generation are all asking themselves, “Can we afford to have more children who we look after, contribute to and support ourselves rather than expecting others to pay for them?”. I have to be really blunt about this.

Personal Independence Payments

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating an Answer to a UQ concerning a landmark judgment of the Supreme Court. The judgment, as we have heard, is to be welcomed and will mean that people with mental health problems who find social situations debilitating can now be assessed as having sufficient points to be eligible for the personal independence regime.

However, Mind—which should be thanked for its intervention in the case—suggests that, since the introduction of PIP, as many as 425,000 people with psychiatric disorders have been turned down for the benefit. Will the Minister say, therefore, what additional resources have been made available to enable past assessments to be reviewed and if necessary rectified, and what additional training is being provided to staff to enable them to better assess the needs of individuals with these conditions?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response and his understanding that we welcome this judgment. As he will know, we regularly consult stakeholders to help shape the training of DWP staff, and I am proud that we now have, in respect of training, a mental health champion in each of our personal independence payment assessment centres.

We welcome this judgment, as it helps us to gain a much deeper understanding of mental health issues and conditions across society. This will, however, be a complex process, which we are committed to doing, and we will report back to the House with further information. The vast majority of the appeals require additional medical information. That is why we are piloting the scheme: so that claimants can provide this evidence at the mandatory reconsideration stage, rather than at tribunal. We are, in other words, doing all we can to continue to improve the system to support those who need help.

Severe Disability Premium: Transfer to Universal Credit

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question. On their flagship social security policy, the Government have yet again found themselves before the courts, subject to a judgment of illegality, and mired in complexity.

As we have heard, on 7 June last year the Government pledged that severe disability premium claimants would no longer have to transfer to universal credit until managed migration started. Yet for months afterwards, they were still required to do this until the Government finally introduced the statutory instrument that came into force on 16 January. In the interim, because the severe disability premium does not exist in universal credit, in transferring they have lost about £180 per month. The Government plan to pay them only £80 a month in compensation, but if they were to move under managed migration, transitional protection would cover the full amount. Little wonder the High Court said in its damning judgment on Friday that this had no logical foundation. Payments to former SDP claimants are part of the regulations for the managed migration pilot but the Government have still not scheduled those for debate, so no payments at all have been made.

Will the Government ensure that the payments to former SDP claimants who have transferred to universal credit fully reflect the loss that they have suffered? From what the Minister said in her introduction, I am not sure that that is the commitment that the Government are making. Also, what assessment have they made of the hardship that claimants might have suffered as a result of this loss of income and, in particular, of the impact on their children, who have had to take on additional care responsibilities as a result of their family’s loss of income?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, as I have already said, Ministers are considering the judgment in detail and will make a decision about their response in due course. When designing universal credit, it was important to provide a simpler system, and a conscious choice was made not to replicate every aspect of disability provision in the legacy system, which contains seven different disability payments. These are difficult to deliver and prone to error, and they can be confusing for claimants. Therefore, we are replacing those seven complex and overlapping disability benefits.

Under the legacy benefit system, 500,000 disabled people did not claim what they were entitled to. Therefore, in terms of families losing out, about £2.4 billion of benefits went unclaimed in the legacy system as a whole. We have now moved to a much fairer system. For example, the rate per month under UC for claimants determined as having limited capability for work and work-related activity is more than twice the amount payable through the equivalent support group component of ESA. Under universal credit, it is now £336.20 per month per household, compared with £167.05 per month through the equivalent ESA support group. This means that around 1 million disabled households will gain an average of £100 more per month on universal credit than on legacy benefits.

Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018 (Naming and Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The issue seems not so much to be what is covered by the national curriculum as the extent to which schools have to comply with it. That is the challenge. As I understand it, free schools and others do not have to. That is the stumbling block that we hit last time. We need to unlock that.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for giving me a further springboard to have discussions on this with my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Education. It is something that we worked on during the passage of the Bill. We did not get as far as we would have liked. We will try again, but we will also keep talking to the Treasury about this and hope to make progress.

Households Below Average Incomes Statistics

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, in many ways we are approaching our support and the welfare system slightly differently from how we did it in the past in terms of where the money goes. We do not necessarily agree that just reinjecting into the system money that might have been saved is the right thing to do. Obviously we want to support people to the best of our ability, but part of that should be practical support. Therefore, although we are putting money into the welfare system with the £1.7 billion a year boost announced in the last Budget, enabling 2.4 million households to keep more of what they earn, our focus is on how much more we can do to help children out of poverty.

As I said, children in workless households are around five times more likely to be in poverty than those in working households. We are supporting people into full-time work where possible—for example, by offering 30 hours of free childcare to parents of three and four year-olds. However, importantly, in addition we are trying to deal with the practical barriers. For example, following a speech in January by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, we will trial paying mothers their first childcare costs up front so that they can start work with their children looked after. Importantly, we want to be more practical in our support but, as the economy has continued to grow, we have been able to share the proceeds of growth to support some of the most vulnerable in society. We have seen increases to the income tax threshold, which will reach £12,500 this year, taking 4 million of the lowest earners out of paying any income tax at all, and that will of course help children. Whereas spending on children was £4 billion in 2010, it will be £6 billion by 2020, which is a 50% increase in the last nine years. However, more can be done.

On the national living wage, this is an important review. We must be careful in increasing the national living wage to ensure that jobs are still sustainable. This review will be very much a cross-government task. I take the risk of saying at the Dispatch Box that I suspect it will be led by the Treasury, which the noble Earl will not be surprised to hear. That is quite right, because we have to balance the degree to which we can increase wages, which is crucial, while keeping people in jobs. We are very proud of our employment rate and we want to keep it. Of course, low wages are across the piece—not only in the private sector but in other sectors.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, might the Minister apply herself succinctly to the points raised? We are using up all this valuable time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Baroness that we spend hours and hours crafting what we will say at the Dispatch Box because it is hugely important that what we say is accurate. I can confirm to the best of my ability that the noble Baroness should believe what I have said, because I can say categorically that life is tough if we get it wrong.

The noble Baroness is right, of course, that we need to do more to ensure that people are able to feed themselves well and live a full life in terms of their life chances, their life expectancy and their health and welfare. That is exactly what we are focused on, and it is why we are running all sorts of programmes within the department relating to healthy lives, along with work programmes to encourage people who have not felt able to join the workforce. We want not only to give people the right financial support but to see that they have dignity and the ability to live their lives fully and reach their full potential. It is important to say that we absolutely believe in helping the vulnerable through our world-class public services, and we are injecting more and more money so that we can help disadvantaged pupils in schools, help people through the NHS system and help people through what we do at the Department for Work and Pensions.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, what does the Minister consider to be the veracity of the statement that the previous Government just dumped people on inactive benefits and required nothing from them? Is the case not actually the reverse—that it was Mrs Thatcher’s Government who moved people from unemployment benefit on to incapacity benefit in order to massage the unemployment figures? Was it not the Labour Government who introduced proactive programmes such as New Deal that required conditionality and engagement for people to get them into work, which were successful? We cannot allow that rewriting of history to continue any longer.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I remember well, when I was a shadow Minister, sitting where the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, sits, listening to history being written on an almost daily basis. I respect the noble Lord’s question but I have to say to him: if that is the case, why were 20% of all households in this country entirely workless back in 2010? I think that is a disgraceful figure, and we are doing everything that we can to bring it down.

Social Security Coordination (Council Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71 and Council Regulation (EC) No 859/2003) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have supported the presentation of these four statutory instruments, and I will also speak to the remaining three.

These regulations were laid before both Houses on 30 January. They enable the Government to address deficiencies in retained EU law caused by the United Kingdom withdrawing from the EU, which would impact the operation of the retained social security co-ordination regulations in a no-deal scenario. The whole system of social security co-ordination across the EU relies on co-operation and reciprocity. The legal framework for this will cease in a no-deal scenario. The UK will have no means of enforcing reciprocal obligations on EU member states and cannot therefore legislate for this when correcting deficiencies in the co-ordination regulations.

These instruments aim to maintain the status quo on a unilateral basis, ensuring that citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no-deal scenario in relation to social security. They are intended to ensure a functioning statute book in the event of no deal, by fixing deficiencies in retained EU law, in line with the power provided by Section 8 of the EU withdrawal Act.

The list of specific legislation that these regulations amend is lengthy but can broadly be split into three categories. The first is data and information sharing. The co-ordination regulations require EU member states to exchange information through specific administrative procedures laid down in the regulations. Data shared is used, for example, to establish which member state is responsible for payment of benefits to avoid overlapping benefits being paid in different member states. These instruments will enable us to ask claimants to provide, within reasonable time, the relevant information to determine competence in cases where the relevant member state does not do so when asked. They also include provisions to ensure that the UK can continue to share data with member states when they are applying the co-ordination regulations.

These SIs also remove provisions within the retained co-ordination regulations that will be inoperable if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal. For example, the co-ordination regulations make provision for a number of bodies at EU level to deal with administrative and technical issues or disputes arising from the application of the social security co-ordination regulations—the administrative commission being the main one. These instruments remove references to these bodies on the basis that they will be inoperable when the UK withdraws from the EU in a no-deal scenario.

Finally, they deal with applicable legislation. The co-ordination regulations state that an individual shall be subject to only one EU member state’s legislation at a time. These arrangements rely on co-ordination between member states in order to operate effectively. These instruments amend the co-ordination regulations to maintain the status quo for when UK legislation does, and does not, apply. These regulations are made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix legal inoperabilities and other deficiencies that will arise on exit in retained EU law, so that the converted law continues to operate effectively post exit, and to make consequential provision.

The legal powers used are those provided for under the EU withdrawal Act, and the amendments made are completely in line with both the policy and legal intent of that Act. The use of secondary legislation to amend primary legislation—the so-called Henry VIII powers—was debated at length during the passage of the Act.

These statutory instruments are part of a wider legislative package that my department is laying. We have already laid SIs relating to private pensions, the European job mobility portal regime—more commonly known as EURES—and consequential powers. My officials will be happy to provide noble Lords with more information on the department’s legislative programme following the debate.

No formal consultation on the regulations has been carried out by the Department for Work and Pensions as the instruments address deficiencies in retained EU law and there is no significant impact as a result. My officials, nevertheless, had informal discussions with the Social Security Advisory Committee on these instruments; these focused on technical issues and policy considerations. Similarly, we expect the regulations to have no impact on business, charities, voluntary bodies or the public sector.

In my view, the provisions in these statutory instruments are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The Minister of State for Employment has also made the same statement.

All noble Lords will know that the EU withdrawal Act is a crucial piece of legislation that will ensure that whatever the outcome of negotiations, we have a functioning statute book on exit day, providing certainty to people and business across the UK. The Act enables this by providing a power for Ministers in the UK Government and devolved Administrations to deal with deficiencies in the law arising as a result of our exit from the EU.

These regulations are an essential part of the legislative programme that my department is laying in preparation for a no-deal scenario. They are needed to correct deficiencies so that the system can function, albeit unilaterally, and to retain the department’s ability to make payments to claimants and to determine claims. Not proceeding with this legislation would result in a statute book that does not function correctly and would fail to protect citizens’ rights. Passing these SIs will ensure that we are ready for all eventualities.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. As we have heard, they seek to address deficiencies in retained law caused by the UK withdrawing from the EU. They amend the retained EU regulations comprising the co-ordination regulations, which currently co-ordinate social security systems throughout the EU.

Given that the changes these regulations cover potentially create new imposts and a move away from the status quo, it seems to us that there is a case for an impact assessment and some consultation. Change is necessary, as we have heard, because the current system relies on co-operation and reciprocity from other member states and that cannot be guaranteed when we withdraw in all respects. It will not be possible, for example, to impose reciprocal obligations on member states when correcting deficiencies, or say when co-ordinating rules relate to individuals moving to or from the UK. We understand and accept that.

The regulations will amend retained co-ordination regulations covering provisions that will not apply to the UK, confer functions on EU entities that will no longer have functions in relation to the UK, and make provision for reciprocal arrangements between the UK and other European Union member states. According to the Explanatory Memorandum:

“The instruments aim to ensure that citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no-deal scenario”.


How? It is asserted that this is about maintaining the status quo, but will the Minister say to what extent the instrument varies from the maintenance of the status quo in practice? How does she characterise this?

The legal framework, as we have heard, for co-operation and enforcing reciprocal obligations in a no-deal scenario will cease. The Explanatory Memorandum states that:

“These instruments aim to maintain the status quo on a unilateral basis”,


but there will be arrangements which are inoperable. These include the denial of membership of such bodies as the administrative commission, the advisory body and the audit board. Will the Minister say in more detail what the implications of this are? It is noted that the ability to make provisional payments in the event of an unresolved dispute will no longer exist, although it is understood that these are in fact little used.

The approach to amending the co-ordination regulations is to focus on circumstances where the UK legislation does apply. Will the Minister please expand on that assertion? The Explanatory Memorandum identifies that the change,

“may give rise to occasions where an individual becomes subject to the legislation of more than one state at a time”,

and possibly to the legislation of two or more states. This is noted as being an unavoidable consequence of a no-deal exit which cannot be managed using powers in the withdrawal Act, but has any assessment been undertaken of the consequences? On what basis does the Minister conclude that the changes,

“do not give rise to any new costs or any financial or economic impact”?

Further, it is understood that fixes for deficiencies relating to healthcare are not provided for in these SIs. How and where are they to be provided for? We know that, by virtue of the EEA agreement and the Swiss free movement of people agreement, the co-ordination regulations also apply in the EEA. Will she outline the full consequences of that for us tonight? I am conscious that there were one or two technical questions there, but this is a technical document and we are entitled to ask them, although I do not believe that we will have undue problems in supporting the regulations.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2019

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has certainly focused on things outside the order itself, but I thank noble Lords for appreciating the upratings made in the order. It feels like 10 minutes ago that we were debating this last year, so I was, to some degree, ready for some of the points that would be raised; I expected there to be references to the benefit freeze and various other issues.

I begin by referencing something that my honourable friend, Justin Tomlinson MP, stated last night in a similar debate in another place. He said that we will always share the proceeds of economic growth to target our support for the most vulnerable in our society. That is why we are spending £7 billion more than in 2010 to support those with severe disabilities and mental health issues.

It is true that things have changed. Our approach is, to some degree, different to that of the party opposite when it was in government. We want to incentivise people; we want to look at the root causes of poverty and lift people out of it. We know—we have research that tells us this—that lifting people out of poverty and into work is the best route. Our welfare reforms incentivise moves into work and support working families. What we are providing is different in some ways, but we know this approach is working. The number of people in work is now at a record high. Through our welfare reforms, the Government have introduced 30 hours of free childcare a week for working families in England; cut income tax for 31 million people; and provided the lowest earners with their fastest pay rise in 20 years through the national living wage.

Our reforms have been highly redistributive. The latest analysis shows that, since taking office in 2016, the poorest households have gained the most as a percentage of net income. The annual average income of the poorest fifth of households has risen in real terms by more than £400 since 2010, while incomes of the richest fifth have fallen. Income inequality is lower than it was in 2010. In 2019-20, the 10% of households with the lowest incomes will receive more than four times as much support in public spending as they contribute in tax. We believe it is right that the poorest households should gain the most as a percentage of net income.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referenced several studies showing that the number of children in poverty will increase substantially over the next few years. However, experts such as the IFS, who undertake these forecasts, acknowledge a degree of uncertainty around them. We stay with our firm belief and principle that work offers the best chance for families to get out of poverty.

Since 2010, there are more than 3.4 million more people in work and around 637,000 fewer children living in workless households. Children are about five times more likely to be in poverty if they live in a workless household, compared to a household where all adults work. There are 300,000 fewer children in absolute poverty, both before and after housing costs, compared to 2010, meaning we are currently at a historic low. We know that children in workless families can face real disadvantages to their development and prospects. This is why we will continue with policies that support and encourage employment, reform the welfare system to make work pay—as I always say, to make work transforms lives—and introduce universal credit to strengthen incentives for parents to move into and progress in work.

The rates of children in material deprivation have never been lower. As I said, children in households where no one works are more likely to be in poverty, but we will be investing more than £6 billion a year in childcare by 2020. There are a number of key ways in which we are demonstrating that our approach is different.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has touched on the Opposition’s policy for work in previous debates. How would she respond to the executive summary of a White Paper produced when we were in government, which states:

“This White Paper sets out a vision and route map for a welfare state where everyone is given the help they need to get back to work, matched by an expectation that they take up that support”—


a concept supported by the noble Lord, Lord Freud? Indeed, he worked on that programme for the DWP.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, what the noble Lord just referenced goes to the heart of what we are trying to achieve. The reality is that we are providing support in every which way to help people into work, and to help people through our jobcentres with our work coaches and case managers. The important thing is that the first thing people do when they go into a jobcentre is talk to a work coach who is interested in ensuring that they have the right support, the right benefits and a roof over their head. We signpost them to the right support where that is lacking. From there, we do all we can, working with a bespoke work coach and case managers. It could take months, weeks or days to encourage people to go into work. Of course, as we know, some of these people have never been in work. Indeed, in 2010 a fifth, of all households in the United Kingdom—20%—were entirely workless. We have brought that down to 13.9% of all UK households. That is still an enormous number of households where nobody is actually working. We genuinely believe it is crucial that we change that, and we are changing it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Can the Minister tell me what the figure was when the Conservative Government left office previously?

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am not able to share that figure with the noble Lord, but I believe so strongly that what we are doing in introducing and developing universal credit with bespoke and universal support is a far cry from what previous Conservative Governments prior to 1997 and the party opposite in Government up to 2010 did with legacy benefits, when people had no contact.

Employment and Support Allowance Payments

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, let me make it very clear that those with complex needs will not suffer from a hard stop during the managed migration process. As I have said to your Lordships in previous debates, we are working hard to ensure that we work with stakeholders to pilot the whole scheme of managed migration. On the noble Baroness’s very good question about lessons learned, the key point is that through these errors in migrating people from incapacity benefit to ESA, we have learned that the big mistake made was that we did not make contact with individual claimants. We thought it was great to have an automatic transfer, but the issue was that we did not have all the right, real-time, up-to-date information on claimants. Therefore, some of those who were eligible did not receive these payments.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister explained that the number of staff included in this exercise has increased from 400 to 1,200. Can she tell us from where those staff have been deployed and what training they have had?

Retirement Age: Women

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, since 1995, successive Governments, including the Government of the party opposite, have gone to significant lengths to communicate these changes using a range of formats, communication methods and styles, including communication campaigns, leaflets and information online. But it is also important to emphasise that there is no link between the balance of the National Insurance Fund and the decision to introduce changes to the state pension age. Changes to the state pension age have been introduced by successive Governments since 1995 to address a long-standing inequality in the state pension age.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have stated that they are committed to supporting people aged 50 and over to remain in or return to work, which is in part in mitigation of the changes to the state pension age. Can the Minister say what in practice is on offer under that heading and how many older persons’ champions are now in post in Jobcentre Plus districts?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, given that people are living longer, which of course we welcome, it is right that arrangements for the state pension system reflect changes in average life expectancy. We are doing much to focus on the need to ensure that we support people who are working longer. The Government are committed to improving the outlook for older workers, including women, affected by increases in the state pension age. The latest figures show that the employment rates for older workers have been increasing: there are 10.4 million workers aged 50-plus in the UK, which is an increase of 1.3 million over just the last five years, and 2.4 million over the last 10 years. But to enable people to work for longer, we have removed the default retirement age, meaning that people are no longer forced to retire at an arbitrary age, and have extended the right to request flexible working to all, which means that people can discuss a flexible working requirement to suit their needs.

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2019

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 14th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the purpose of the orders. On the face of it, the GMP issue is straightforward. As we heard, GMPs are designed to provide a minimum weekly pension broadly equivalent to the amount of additional state provision accrued if not contracted out. Has any assessment been undertaken of the value for money of the GMP system? My noble friend Lady Drake raised an important issue around the Lloyds judgment and the decision to equalise pension benefits. I believe she wanted to know what would happen to the guidance and how soon it could be forthcoming. Is it a question not of the GMPs themselves generally having to be made more equal but, rather, of other components of the package?

On auto-enrolment, there was a brief but good debate in the Chamber—the contributors being women—the main thrust of which, not unreasonably, was the role of women. We praise auto-enrolment but all too often overlook the fact that it still has a job to do. I could recite the roll of honour of those who made auto-enrolment happen, but you know who you are.

Specifically, the legislation requires that the Government do two things: renew and, if necessary, amend the upper and lower thresholds of the qualifying earnings bands; and review the level of the earnings trigger, adjusting for roundings where appropriate. As the Minister explained, the order proposes to freeze the latter at £10,000 but align the former with the lower and upper earnings limits for national insurance purposes. This widens the earnings band by some £3,500.

The supporting analysis for this included a DWP review document of December 2018, which sets out the three principles adopted for the review. Subject to challenge from my noble friend Lady Drake, those principles are: will the right people be brought into pension saving; what is the appropriate minimum level of saving for people who are automatically enrolled; and are costs and benefits to individuals and employers appropriately balanced?

As for raising the qualifying earnings band to the UEL, this increases total pension savings by £179 million, employer contributions by £68 million and employee contributions by £85 million. Retaining £10,000 as the earnings trigger represents a real-terms decrease, which brings an additional 40,000 individuals within the target population. According to the DWP analysis, of that 40,000 some 75% of the additional savers are estimated to be women.

How have the Government made the judgment that costs and benefits to individuals and employers are appropriately balanced? What are the tests? The above apart, what specific additional factors have influenced the proposal before us today? Subject as always to the Minister’s reply, we have no difficulty in supporting the proposals in the order.

I was pleased to hear what the Minister said on tax relief and trying to address the thorny issues of relief at source and net pay arrangements. These issues have been long outstanding, certainly over more than one Government.

I am conscious that we are addressing these issues in the wake of the 2017 review, which involves a wider focus on auto-enrolment. It is also at a point where most of the transitional introductory phases have been accomplished. March 2018 saw staging completed for small and micro employers, while minimum contribution levels rose to 5% in April last year and are heading for 8% this April. Can the Minister say something about re-enrolment and opt-out levels?

As that review identified, despite its success, individuals are still not saving enough. An estimated 12 million are undersaving for their retirement and some 5.7 million are mild undersavers. The broader review, Maintaining the Momentum, charts a path for the future that will help to address some of the shortfall. Its recommendations include: reducing the lower age limit from 22 to 18; calculating pension contributions from the first pound earned; removing the lower earnings limit; and working to increase saving among the self-employed. These may be matters for another day but, like my noble friend, I do not see why they have to wait until the mid-2020s. Is the Minister satisfied with this framework?

Nevertheless, we continue to be enthusiasts for auto-enrolment in one of the most important public policy initiatives of recent times, bred of a consensus.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, this has been an important and helpful debate and I will do my best to respond to as many questions as possible. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of automatic enrolment. It was a cross-party initiative. It seems only five minutes ago—but it was a year—that the noble Lord and I were debating this subject in very similar terms. There is support for auto-enrolment, which is a success story, but we are never complacent. There is always more to do to improve the system.

I shall start with questions on the guaranteed minimum pension. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for giving me early notice of her question about the recent Lloyds Bank case. That case endorsed the Department for Work and Pensions’ long-held position that schemes must equalise for the effect of inequalities caused by guaranteed minimum pensions. The principle of equal pensions was established by the European Court of Justice in 1990. The requirement on schemes to equalise is not a new cost; they have been aware of it and should have been planning for it for many years. My department has put forward a method that schemes can use to equalise pensions which, because of its “once and done” nature, should limit costs resulting from additional administration requirements. The department will provide guidance in the near future for schemes wishing to use the method upon which the department consulted in November 2016. The Department for Work and Pensions intends to make further changes to the guaranteed minimum pension conversion legislation to facilitate the methodology on which we consulted. We are looking to make those changes as soon as a suitable opportunity presents itself. The representative beneficiaries in the Lloyds case sought leave to appeal on two points of the judge’s decision concerning the methodology favoured by them and the requirement to provide back-payments. Leave to appeal was refused, as I am sure the noble Baroness knows.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked about the assessment of the guaranteed minimum pension system. I am unable to answer a couple of those questions and will write to him. Guaranteed minimum pensions were abolished in 1997, but those which accrued before that time must be honoured by schemes which had contracted out while GMPs were accruing.

On auto-enrolment uprating, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked why the Government do not tackle the inequality in the tax system which means that individuals automatically enrolled into a pension scheme use net payment arrangements or are losing out on tax relief. My noble friend Lady Altmann is not in her place but I know she is particularly concerned about this. The Government recognise the different impacts of the two systems of paying pension tax relief on pension contributions for workers earning below the personal allowance. The Government will look at the current differences and explore how to make the most of any new opportunities to balance simplicity, fairness and practicality. The Department for Work and Pensions has worked and is working with the Pensions Regulator to issue guidance to highlight to employers the differences between the NPA and RAS schemes and the potential disadvantage for low earners who are not eligible for tax relief if their employers opt out of NPA schemes.

The noble Lord also asked how many individuals have opted out. A total of 9% did so during the implementation of auto-enrolment. The 2018 evaluation report showed initial evidence of opt-out rates having fallen since the programme was fully implemented. Of course, the department will continue to monitor re-enrolment.

Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 14th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

Can the noble Lord repeat the question?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Yes, I should speak up. What are the current levels of recovery under the 1979 Act? Also, what drives the quantum of lump sum payments under that Act, which created the schedule in the first place? We know what the uprating is about.

The annual question posed is about bringing payments for dependants up to the level payable to sufferers. I join those who say it is time that we should do this. Debate in the other place on the regulations was in part conflated with arrangements in the 2012 Act, which I think was introduced only in 2019. Historically, as we know, there were concerns about low levels of compensation made available for these long-latency diseases. Focus for a long while was on the traceability of employer liability policies and, although progress was made, it was considered that in too many cases employers and their insurers were avoiding liability. I understand that this led to the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme, introduced in 2014 and led by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who deserves credit for his difficult negotiation with the insurance sector.

Social Metrics Commission

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, this is a very important point. I thank my noble friend for introducing a debate on this very subject last week. It is right that we take note of the unavoidable extra costs of disability and childcare. However, so far as we understand it, the Social Metrics Commission does not include, for example, the unavoidable cost for the elderly of social care. In regard to disability, it is important to note that we spend more than £50 billion a year on benefits to support disabled people and those with health conditions. It is encouraging that 973,000 more disabled people have entered into work in the last five years, and we now have much more generous childcare provision.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, we share my noble friend’s enthusiasm for the approach adopted by the commission, particularly the focus on relative poverty. This is a measure that takes account of both income and inescapable costs to which the Minister has just referred, such as childcare, housing and the impact of disability. Under the commission’s new measure, there are 14.2 million people in poverty, nearly half of whom are living in families with a disabled person. Do the Government think that this is acceptable? Measuring is all very well, but what are the Government going to do about it?

[Baroness Buscombe]

To answer the last point first, the current measure shows that in 2016-17 23% of people in households where someone was disabled were in poverty, compared with 24% in 2010-11, so that shows that poverty levels among disabled people are not rising. Compared with 2010, there are now 1 million fewer people—300,000 fewer children, 500,000 fewer working-age adults and 200,000 fewer pensioners—in absolute poverty.

Poverty: Metrics

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, this worthy debate has been far too short. The noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, deserves our congratulations on all that she has done, together with her team, which was mentioned a moment ago. She is right to encourage the putting of poverty at the heart of government policy, although we recognise that this will entail a major change of approach. The SMC report which she has presented reminds us that there are no official measures of poverty in England or across the UK as a whole. As others have said, can the Minister say why this is? How is it possible to target poverty, particularly child poverty? We have heard from a number of Peers that what gets measured gets done—the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the right reverend Prelate made that same point.

Noble Lords may recall the debates we had at the time over the use of income measures in the Child Poverty Act, which was renamed by the coalition Government as the life chances Act. My noble friend Lady Lister will certainly recall that, as indeed will the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who led the charge in those days. The income measures were replaced by reporting obligations on workless households and educational attainment, particularly at key stage 4. Can the Minister please remind us of progress on those reports, which are required to be made to Parliament? I think that two are due by now under those arrangements.

It would seem that the Social Metrics Commission accepts that an income component to measuring poverty is appropriate. This would base its data on the FRS. As we have heard from a number of noble Lords, its metric of total resources available is proposed to include all sources of post-tax earnings and income, including benefit and tax credit income, liquid assets available for immediate use—I can see that there may be some difficulties with those at the margins—deductions for family-specific recurring costs such as housing and childcare, along with the inescapable costs of disability. I think that the report floats the possibility of social care being included at some stage. We are thoroughly supportive of the proposals to include rough sleepers as living in poverty. Indeed, it should be impossible to describe them otherwise.

We know that despite the substantial effort on the part of the commission there are still gaps where the policy is not oven-ready. The approach of the commission is caveated by reference to, “within existing data and research”. The report indicates that the commission decided that it was not possible to move immediately to a new method of equivalisation and that more work would be needed. Can the Minister say how any future work on this is to be undertaken? I think that we were given a hint that there may be a Bill in the offing at some stage. Will this be the responsibility of the DWP or the Social Metrics Commission? Who has responsibility for and ownership of the project? At the end of the day, this should be about sending a message to Government about changing the dire state of our communities blighted by poverty. We have some 14.3 million people living in poverty, including 8.2 million working-age adults despite the success of universal support, as well as 4.6 million in persistent poverty. I could go on. We must build a picture of those in poverty so that we can better understand their challenges and what they need to make progress in their lives.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Stroud for securing this debate and all those who have contributed to today’s debate of this important question. I really commend the work of the Social Metrics Commission.

Measuring poverty is complex. There are many factors affecting a person’s standard of living, and reaching consensus on whether a person’s circumstances indicate poverty is difficult to assess objectively. Of course, assessing poverty accurately across the whole population requires robust data. This is why academics here and abroad have developed so many measures, including low income, material deprivation, social exclusion, consumption, expenditure and multidimensional poverty. I was struck by the reference by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, to the lack of indicators for cultural poverty—our collective experiences. That is a very good point, because it emphasises the reality that the possibilities for how we approach the way we measure poverty are, if not quite endless, enormous.

As noble Lords know, this Government already publish official data that sets out the number and characteristics of households that fall below various income thresholds, as well as a measure of material deprivation. These are well-established measures, often used for international comparison purposes. We will continue to publish data on them in line with the statutory commitment that we have made. However, the Government accept that the current suite of measures is not without limitations. For example, the relative poverty line moves with average income, which is useful when looking at whether groups are keeping up with the middle of the income distribution over time but does not show whether the average incomes of those on the lowest incomes is improving in real terms. If everyone’s incomes were to double tomorrow, the number of people in relative poverty would be unchanged. On the other hand, the absolute poverty line moves with inflation, providing a better measure of how the income of those on low incomes compares with the cost of living.

Our persistent poverty measures assess the numbers in relative poverty for three of the last four years, and are helpful in identifying groups struggling to escape low income. Our material deprivation measure looks at the goods and services that people report they can access, taking account of the costs that parents and pensioners face as well as the resources they have. At 11%, the number of children in material deprivation has never been lower. That means, for example, more families able to afford fresh fruit and vegetables every day and more children who have a winter coat.

We therefore welcome the Social Metrics Commission’s work. Its new measures aim to better reflect what it has identified as the unavoidable costs that are combined with a person’s income. This goes further than our current low-income data, as while it takes account of housing costs, it does not take account of the costs of childcare and disability, as referenced by a number of noble Lords. The commission has also identified further costs—for example, care costs—that it thinks should be taken into consideration if appropriate data was available.

The recommendations in the report are too numerous to cover here, but I offer a couple of examples of the elements we need to assess. First, we need to look at the quality of the data used to estimate some of the costs included in the commission’s measure. Indeed, its report accepts that there are data-quality issues. There is also the possibility that including some additional costs but not others could skew the measure towards certain groups. The commission’s report indicates that there may be more children and disabled people and fewer pensioners compared with the official statistics. What would be the impact on the measure if social care costs were also included? Children and disabled people were particularly referenced by my noble friend Lady Stroud.

In disregarding disability benefits from the calculation of relative poverty, we cannot lose sight of the fact that these provide a valuable financial contribution towards the extra costs that disabled people can face. I want to encourage my noble friend Lord Bethell. We spend over £50 billion a year on benefits to support disabled people and people with health conditions. That is £8 billion more in real terms than in 2010. PIP, the personal independence payment, is better at targeting support to those who need it most, as we see with 31% of people on PIP receiving the top rate of benefit compared with 15% under DLA. Alongside this, the proportion of people with mental health conditions getting the highest level of support under our system is over five times higher than under the old system. We believe that disabled people should have every opportunity to thrive in the workplace, and we provide financial support to ensure that someone’s disability or health condition does not hold them back at work. My noble friend Lord Bethell referenced how difficult it is for people to go to work, but it is really encouraging that 973,000 more disabled people have entered work in the last five years.

Over the coming months, we look forward to the release of further information, including the programmes used by the commission to produce its estimates and the papers supporting its decisions around what its measures should include. To answer my noble friend Lady Stroud, while we are unable to make any commitments to the Social Metrics Commission at this stage, we will want carefully to consider the detail that underpins the methodology that the commission has employed when this is made available to us. The department is also keen to be involved in the stakeholder discussions on some of the critical and more complex issues associated with the commission’s measure.

To answer the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about who will be empowered through where we go next, I want to make it clear that we welcome the opportunity that we as a department have been given to work with the Social Metrics Commission. As a number of noble Lords suggested, as with so many things in life, this is more important than politics.

In tackling poverty, ensuring that we have robust measures for assessing the nature and extent of poverty is vital. The department is thinking strategically about the issues behind poverty, including housing, debt, low pay and worklessness. We will raise housing supply to 300,000 new homes per year on average by the mid-2020s and are investing £9 billion into our affordable homes programme, so that we can deliver more homes where they are needed most. Our economy has grown for the 23rd consecutive quarter in a row and we are backing businesses to deliver better jobs, better incomes and better lives for people across the country. Since 2010, there have been 1,000 more people in work every day and 80% of the rise in employment has been in full-time work. That suggests that it is important that we look more closely at low pay across all employment sectors, not just the private sector.

I thank my noble friend Lord Freud for his reference to the introduction of universal support. It is doing an enormous amount to help, but I also take on board his suggestion with regard to the importance of sharing data. That is incredibly important. There is also the possibility going forward for claimants to be able to work with electronic wallets.

I now move to our approach as a Government. We are firm in our belief that work is the pillar of a strong economy and strong society, and we have clear evidence about what works. We know that, for those who can, work offers the best opportunity to get out of poverty and become self-reliant. Adults in workless families are four times more likely to be in poverty than those in working families, and children in workless households are around five times more likely to be in poverty after housing costs than those where all adults work. Indeed, the Social Metrics Commission recognises that, under its new measure, the majority—68%—of people living in workless families are in relative poverty, compared with just 9% of people living in families where all adults work full time. Our policies therefore strongly reflect that work is the best way out of poverty. One example is the Access to Work scheme, which now allows people to claim up to £57,200 annually to help pay for the additional support they need in the workplace. That is particularly targeted at the most vulnerable and the disabled.

Children need role models and parents need dignity and self-worth to believe that they can achieve their potential of supporting their children. The principles of UC entirely support this truth. I particularly take on board what my noble friend Lord Farmer said regarding the elephant in the room and the importance of including the family. I commend all the work that he does on the reducing parental conflict programme. It is important to note that the Social Metrics Commission does look at the family—the reference is to family, relationships and community—but we need to look further at this and see how it all comes together. It is for those reasons that we are pushing ahead with the most ambitious reform to the welfare system in decades, delivering real and lasting change to the lives of many of the most disadvantaged people in society—and yes, as my noble friend Lady Stroud said, focusing on better outcomes for people.

Universal credit is, of course, at the heart of these reforms and will tackle poverty by helping an extra 200,000 people into work. It is a modern benefit with one monthly payment that adjusts to earnings, avoiding the cliff edge associated with the legacy benefits it replaces. Those in work under universal credit earn an average £600 extra a year, and because it is a simpler system than Labour’s complex mix of tax credits and benefits, 700,000 families will get money they are entitled to which they are currently missing out on.

I take issue with what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said about the UC system being digital by default. That is simply not the case. Universal credit focuses on strong personalised support, with work coaches and case workers, and we will offer home visits where needed. We want to focus on individuals and we do so.

As my noble friend Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist said, we are listening to concerns. We note when we get it wrong, and it is a work in progress. I thank the right reverend Prelate for his welcome for the Secretary of State’s comments in her recent speech in this regard.

Our policies are making a difference. Under this Government income inequality is down year on year and remains lower than 2010, both before and after housing costs. Since 2009-10, annual incomes of the poorest fifth have increased by £400 above inflation before housing costs, whereas the incomes of the richest fifth have fallen by £800, showing that people are able to progress. Our official statistics show that there are 1 million fewer people in absolute poverty compared with 2010, including 300,000 children, and that the number of children in material deprivation has never been lower. There is so much more that I would like to say. We believe that building stronger partnerships with local services and organisations is key to identifying barriers and providing cohesive support for those who need extra help.

My noble friend Lady Stroud has asked what I believe is a question of great importance for all of us in this House, and I stress that the Department for Work and Pensions takes this very seriously. I thank my noble friend for the work the commission is undertaking and look forward to its further work in the future. Ultimately, however, this Government will be held to account for their progress in tackling poverty, and I have no hesitation in recommending our reforms as the right approach if we are to make a long-term difference to people’s lives and build a society where everyone can realise their potential.

Occupational and Personal Pension Schemes (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords—

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Forgive me; I was waiting because I thought the Minister was going to answer the question.

[Baroness Buscombe]

No.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this has been a wider debate than I anticipated when I signed to speak on these regulations but, I suggest, relevant nevertheless. Some important issues have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, implicitly shared my noble friend Lady Drake’s view of the squeezing of time to look at these things properly. My noble friend Lord Adonis went to the root of the problem and the challenges that we face on no deal.

My noble friend Lord Adonis talked about secrecy in the departments. I have to say that I have been disappointed in one respect because I have always been a supporter of the DWP. There is a note attached to each information note saying, “X at the Department for Work and Pensions, telephone number Y and email Z, can be contacted with any queries regarding the instrument”. When I tried to do so, I was told that that was not really for opposition Members to use. Given that these are situations where there is highly technical stuff, I found that disappointing. We had always thought that we would have a basis of sharing technical issues, even if our conclusions may be different.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, started off by giving us robust reassurances about the degree of scrutiny and sufficient time. What came from that bit of the debates, which involved my noble friend Lord Adonis and the noble Lords, Lord Kirkwood and Lord Deben, was that we need to reflect on this issue. What started off as a narrow technical piece of legislation has raised a lot of questions about scrutiny—not only the scrutiny of this legislation but other things that we do as a result of Brexit.

I am again indebted to my noble friend Lady Drake, who has done the heavy lifting for us on this SI. She has focused particularly on the challenge caused by the absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and raised an important point about a weaker regulatory system for cross-border activities and the broader question of what the pensions context should look like.

I thank the Minister for her explanation of these regulations. They have a fairly straightforward intent, so we are told, despite the seemingly technical nature of the proposed adjustments. As we heard, the regulations are part of the planning that would enable UK law to operate effectively if the UK leaves the EU without a withdrawal agreement in place. One example would be the obvious problems where the UK is currently particularised in relation to the EEA, either as “with the UK” or as “other than in the UK”.

The Explanatory Memorandum asserts that we do not need to make policy changes to ensure UK law in the field of occupational and personal pensions continues to operate effectively in the event of withdrawal without an agreement. I am not sure that is right; at what point is a change a policy change, and at what point is it not? For example, Regulation 2(3), among others, in reference to insurance policies or annuity contracts of security, would,

“omit ‘or any other EEA state’”.

Is that a minor tactical detail or a change of policy? The Pensions Act 2008 excludes Article 6 of the IORP directive, with its main administration in the EEA. Is that not a change of policy? The regulations enter into force on exit day, so could the Minister confirm what date this is? It is not specified in the regulation so far as I can see. If the UK should exit the EU on an agreed basis, how does this impact the entry-into-force date? Does it simply fade away? How much of this SI still stands or is necessary should—however unlikely—the Prime Minister’s deal be supported by the Commons? Indeed, can the Minister remind us of what is in the Prime Minister’s deal on the issue of pensions? The amendment to the Pension Schemes Act 1993 is focused on the security for GMP not to be allowed to be an instrument of an EEA state. May I ask the Minister why that is the case?

Further provisions are a bit convoluted; perhaps the Minister can comment on some, starting with Part 2 and Regulation 2, which amends the Pension Schemes Act 1993; what is this detail about? I tried to get clarification from the department. Can the Minister please give us a detailed explanation of this and the amendment to the Pensions Act 2004?

These are important provisions. I share with many the view that we may never have to deal with them in practice, but they should be properly introduced and scrutinised in the interim.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, and I will do my best to respond. My notes are somewhat spread, so if I may I will begin by responding to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. On his not being able to contact the department, I took 27 pieces of legislation through this House on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, and not once was I given access to civil servants or to support from any department. I recall the wonderful Lord McIntosh of Haringey, who sat in my place and whom I miss still, because he was utterly brilliant when it came to the most technical and difficult regulations. I would telephone him and he would laugh at the suggestion that I should have access to any of his civil servants. However, on one occasion he did relent, because he agreed that the support I had from industry was so exceptional that he would share his expertise with me if I shared mine with him.

My department responded to a question from the noble Lord only this morning, confirming that these regulations are focused on what will happen in the event of no deal, but in the event that there is a deal, it is very important to stress that they will no longer be required. We would then expect to defer, revoke or amend the instruments in time for the end of the implementation period to ensure that they properly reflect whatever deal scenario might be in existence. It is important to make it clear that these regulations are about legal certainty on exit day; they are not about trying with a crystal ball to know what would happen in any particular deal situation. They are about ensuring legal certainty in the event of a no deal, which would mean that we walked away from the EU on 29 March.

Social Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 4th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. It is fair to say that this is not the most exacting task she will have to undertake on matters Brexit. As we have heard, there are two sets of regulations, the territorial application of one set relating to Great Britain and of the other to Northern Ireland. The two sets cover parallel issues.

The Explanatory Memorandum reminds us that the Northern Ireland Executive are not in being, although the policy areas that are the subject of these regs are transferred matters and should be the responsibility of the Executive. That point was touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, with some expression of concern that we share. The memorandum states that the Government,

“will take through the necessary secondary legislation … in close consultation with the Northern Ireland departments”.

Perhaps the Minister will say what this involves. I think she might have answered that by saying that the Department for Communities was consulted.

The regs will operate with effect from exit day, but it goes without saying that many of us wish that that day will never arrive. Given that the powers of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 are engaged by these regulations, it is incumbent on Ministers to make certain statements. These encompass a requirement to state that the regs do no more than is appropriate to deal with deficiencies in retained EU law, but that there are good reasons for the provisions and that they leave intact equalities provisions. The Minister states that, given that the Equality Act does not extend to Northern Ireland, she has given due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, harassment and victimisation. We do not seek to disagree with those conclusions.

As we have heard, these instruments fall into two groups. They amend various provisions in UK domestic legislation that contain references to the UK as a member state of the EU, or of the EEA. Further, they amend Section 179 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 and its Northern Ireland equivalent to enable social security-related reciprocal agreements to be entered into with international organisations. The Explanatory Memorandum instances the EU, but can the Minister state what others might be in contemplation? What is the position with any existing agreements that the UK has entered into with the EU? Could the Minister please list these? Do they have to be reinstated on some basis or do they run on?

The insertions made to Section 179(4) list a range of EC or EEC regulations. Can the Minister differentiate between the two? Taking new subsection (4)(am) as an example, I presume that its inclusion is not intended to change the domestic law. Can the Minister outline for us the impact of Regulation (EEC) 1408/71 on the application of social security systems to employed persons, to self-employed persons and to members of their families moving within the Community?

The regulations extend to other amendments to existing secondary legislation to ensure accuracy of references when the UK is no longer part of the EU. These cover persons abroad, invalid care allowance regulations, SSP, SMP, overpayments and recoveries, AA, DLA, housing benefit, PIP and universal credit. Can the Minister confirm that in each case there is just a change of wording to reflect the changed situation of the UK and that it has no wider implications for the position of the continuing EU members?

We hope to see these regulations gather dust in some corner of Westminster and not be called into use. In so far as they are, we agree that they do the job.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Perhaps we have now gleaned rather more from the Benches opposite as to which way the noble Lord’s party may vote in the coming days; hitherto, we have been entirely unclear, as have all honourable friends in another place.

These are minor and technical amendments. I want to make it clear that there is no impact on policy. There is of course frustration—if I may put it that way—that the people of Northern Ireland are not fully represented. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is quite right that there is sadly nothing that I can do about that. The UK Government remain committed to restoring devolution in Northern Ireland—that also concerned the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. This is particularly important in the context of EU exit, where we want devolved Ministers to take the necessary actions to prepare Northern Ireland for exit. That includes making the necessary legislative corrections to ensure that the Northern Ireland statute book is ready for exit day, consistent with the action taken at Westminster and in the other devolved legislatures. However, with exit day only a few months away and in the continued absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, the window to prepare the Northern Ireland statute book for exit is narrowing. UK Ministers therefore decided that it would be in the interest of legal certainty in Northern Ireland for the UK Government to take through the necessary secondary legislation at Westminster. That decision was made in close consultation with the Northern Ireland Civil Service. We are in constant touch with the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland. I can reassure noble Lords that we are doing all we can to make sure that we work well with it. We hope that the current situation will change for the better in the near future.

I make it absolutely clear that the regulations make consequential amendments to domestic legislation; they do not make any changes to entitlement to benefit or payment—it is crucial to say that in response to both noble Lords’ questions and concerns. A multitude of references to the EU are made as we are currently members of it, but for only a few months longer. I do not have a list today of all the legislation that this references, but I am very happy to write to noble Lords to make very clear exactly which pieces of legislation this impacts upon.

The Government are committed to ensuring that the social security system works for everyone post exit day and these regulations will help to do this by fixing minor and technical changes to existing DWP and corresponding Northern Ireland domestic legislation. They are part of a package of legislation. We have already dealt with some legislation in reference to the payment of pensions. On that basis and with the proviso that I will write to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, with specific reference to those aspects of the legislation, I hope that noble Lords will support these statutory instruments.

Universal Credit

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Monday 5th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am proud to say that this country provides more benefits for families than any other advanced nation. I do not recognise the estimates; it is not right to make estimates without any underlying evidence. We have come a long way since the cuts some years ago to which the noble Baroness referred. There were cuts right across the board, in all departments. For example, the cost of social security went up by 65% under Labour and was becoming totally unsustainable. We could not continue with that rise. We have therefore had to adjust and make some very difficult choices.

We are doing all we can, with the working tax allowance and increased support for childcare costs, to support children and families. An additional 80,000 working parents who are in receipt of transitional protection and who access support for childcare costs provided by UC are expected to benefit from these regulations. The support for childcare costs provided by universal credit, worth up to £1,108 per month for two or more children, is more generous than the system it replaces. However, the most important support that anyone in a family can give their children is being in work; setting a course for that family out of poverty—a hand up, not a handout—and being role models for the children. There are over 800,000 job vacancies at the moment. We want to do everything we can to support people into work, because that is the best way to lift children out of poverty.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, a moment ago the Minister said that we had come a long way. I am not sure that is how millions of people who have endured this Government’s cuts would view matters, even though a portion is put back in today’s announcements. The Minister said that home visits would be available for help with a claim. On what basis would that be? Would they be available as of right to anybody who seeks one? I recall that with ESA there were meant to be automatic home visits for people with mental health issues. I do not believe that ever happened. What assurances do we have that it will be robust in this case?

[Baroness Buscombe]

It is important to explain a little more about the test and learn process, which is one of the reasons why we are taking longer than we might to introduce the first tranche of managed migration. We are not doing this by ourselves. It is very much a co-design with a number of charities, the third sector and researchers to help us work out our monitoring. We will closely monitor the quality of communications which we will issue, and whether they are understood by recipients, before we increase the pace of migration. We are also making sure to put out letters that are easier to understand, and constantly working out what we can do. However, if we hear nothing from a claimant, we will offer home visits. That has to be an opportunity for those who are genuinely afraid of change. That is one reason why we on this side feel passionately. The less scaremongering around this system, the better. I put some of the blame on the media, which has not fully understood it.

We are trying to lift people out of the system that trapped them in poverty—on legacy benefits with cliff edges, where they could not work more than 16 or 24 hours a week without losing benefits. The brilliant thing about this simplification—merging six benefits into one—is that you do not lose your benefits. Your benefits may now increase by £1,000 before they begin to taper, and the taper rate has just been reduced from 40% to 30% of your standard allowance. I also remind the party opposite that when it left government and this party came into power—the noble Baroness may shake her head—this Government had to fund debt amounting to 10% of our GDP. That was the issue facing us.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Would the Minister care to reconsider what she has just said about the taper rates being reduced from 40% to 30%?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I am sorry, it should be the debt repayment rate. I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am so eager to get this right, and noble Lords may understand that there are quite a lot of numbers and it is quite technical. I am quite emotional about the fact that we are the party of social mobility and we have introduced a system that we genuinely believe will be better for everyone. It is, however, a very hard system to get right for everyone, because everyone is different—we are dealing with different situations and circumstances and we do not want people to fall through the cracks.

Employment and Support Allowance

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 18th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

First, I want to make it clear that we are constantly looking at how we can make our procedures more robust. In fact, our Permanent Secretary is in discussion with the Public Accounts Committee about how we can do this. The key lesson that we have very much taken on board in developing our processes and our thoughts on managed migration is—as I have just said, and I will repeat it—that it is important that we engage properly with the claimants and that we do not have a system that is entirely automatic without the opportunity to understand up-to-date data, information and circumstances with regard to each and every claimant. That is to ensure that claimants do not lose out on benefits to which they are entitled, unlike the legacy benefits, which about 700,000 people are not receiving. That is about £2.4 billion because there is not sufficient contact.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister say a little more about the reasons for these underpayments? Is it fundamentally a systemic problem, or simply a collection of ad hoc errors?

[Baroness Buscombe]

It is right to explain—indeed I did explain this in July—that the reality is that a mistake was made that should never have been made. No mistakes are acceptable when it comes to people who genuinely need this important support. What we did back in 2013 was respond to individual cases. Clearly, the department was not aware that there was a much bigger problem. We worked to legal advice at the time, and we took the view that the law prevented us from paying arrears beyond the date of the LH judgment in October 2014. An Upper Tribunal in Scotland endorsed that approach. The department is, however, now in a position to extend the payments back to the date of the original conversion from incapacity benefit to ESA. The department expects to pay back around £970 million in arrears between now and 2020.

Universal Credit

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 16th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by paying tribute to Baroness Hollis of Heigham, who was a Minister in this House from, I understand, 1997 to 2005. Baroness Hollis was a formidable Minister—I know because I was a shadow Minister for Social Security during some of that time. I remember her as a fantastic champion of the welfare system, women’s rights and in particular women’s pension rights. I feel privileged to have known her.

By leave of the House, I shall repeat as a Statement an Answer given to an Urgent Question in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister for Employment.

“Mr Speaker, I note the precise wording of the Urgent Question from the right honourable gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of respect. I know he cares deeply about welfare matters and is an excellent chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee. Of course he, his committee and the whole House have a right to hold the Government to account, and that includes the Department for Work and Pensions. I do not wish to be unhelpful in my response. However, some of the matters that he may be alluding to are the subject of speculation in the media. There has been a great deal of speculation around universal credit in the last few days. I cannot comment on speculation.

When it comes to rollout, we have long said that we will take a slow and measured approach to managed migration. That is why we will continue to take a ‘test and learn’ approach, acting on feedback and improving the system as it rolls out. By December 2018 universal credit will be in every jobcentre in the country. People who are making new claims to our benefits system now apply for universal credit rather than being put on the old system. Next year we will start the wider process of moving people from the old benefits system on to universal credit. The process will begin later next year in a measured way with no more than 10,000 people moved over, to ensure that the system is working well for claimants and to make any necessary adaptations as we go. We have said for a long time now that the managed migration process will take place from 2019 to 2023.”

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for her kind comments about my erstwhile colleague Baroness Hollis. It is with regret that we have the absence of her voice for our deliberations today. She had unparalleled experience on universal credit. She was determined, she was passionate, and her oratory rang out across this Chamber. I fear that we will not see her like again.

Universal credit is causing severe hardship for many people claiming it. Over the past two weeks, conflicting statements from the Government have caused real confusion about the impact it will have on people who are required to move across to claim it in the next phase. First, we were told that austerity was over, then that families on low incomes are in danger of losing up to £200 a month as a result of transferring to universal credit. Next, the Prime Minister said that nobody would be worse off, but the Secretary of State contradicted her the following day. This morning, we had the BBC report—I understand the Minister’s position on that—saying that the Government are planning changes to the universal credit system that will include the end date for the rollout being put back by a further nine months. This is the sixth time since 2013 that this benefit has been recalibrated.

Is the reported delay to the start of the next phase the result of the warnings that the Government have received from right across the voluntary sector and expert organisations that their draft regulations are simply not fit for purpose? Will they now publish their impact assessment of that next phase? How will the changes reported by the BBC affect the savings that universal credit is expected to make for the Treasury? How many households currently claiming legacy benefits will be worse off between now and 2023 as a result of making a new claim for universal credit? Together with dozens of disability and advice organisations, we call for a halt to the rollout of managed migration until it is fit for purpose.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s questions. Let me say straightaway that we have not been recalibrating anything. He will be aware that there have been a number of PQs in the past few months. There was a Written Ministerial Statement in June this year, wherein we set out very clearly that from the beginning of next year, we want to move to managed migration in a very slow and careful way. We want to be sure that we get it right, that the right systems are in place. As we also made clear to the Social Security Advisory Committee, we will not begin to introduce managed migration, which is those who are on existing benefits—the legacy system, as we call it—rather than those who are new to the benefit system who are going on to universal credit, until July next year. That has long been the case.

We are now waiting for the end of the rollout of the system into every jobcentre by the end of December this year. We are also now in receipt of some important recommendations made by the Social Security Advisory Committee as a result of our proposals to it with regard to managed migration regulations, which we hope to lay before the House in the near future. We are now considering those recommendations very seriously and I will report to this House in the very near future.

The most important answer that I must give straightaway is that a key point for the managed migration regulations, which we will bring forward, is to protect the most vulnerable. We are not halting any rollout. Our concern is to protect the most vulnerable— those who cannot work, those with severe disabilities—through the severe disability premium and careful full transitional protection through migration on to universal credit.

Pensions: Online Dashboard

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards establishing an online pensions dashboard.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, with automatic enrolment we are delivering a complete change in the UK’s savings culture. We are currently exploring the many complex issues associated with developing a pensions dashboard. Our feasibility work is nearing completion and we will report to Parliament in due course. The Government are committed to ensuring that people are supported to plan ahead for retirement, including with automatic enrolment, existing digital services and a new single financial guidance body, launching in January next year.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. At a time when 9 million new workplace savers are being auto-enrolled and the average worker changes jobs 11 times during their working life, there is clearly a compelling public policy argument for having mechanisms to track pension pots, including the state pension, throughout life. The DWP has estimated that 50 million pension pots, with some £3 billion in savings, would be lost without a dashboard. Already one in five adults admits to having lost a pension pot.

There is widespread support for the concept of the dashboard, although there are different propositions. We believe that the Government are right to give ownership to the DWP, as a government lead is essential. Does the Minister agree that lessons from overseas show that the best way of providing a comprehensive service is to make participation compulsory? That requires legislation. Given all the work the DWP has done, why are we considering changing tack now? What can we glean when Parliament is not sitting which we cannot not glean when it is? Is there not an issue of capacity, with the universal credit debacle overwhelming the department?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, let me first say that the figure of 50 million referred to is an estimate made in 2012 of the number of dormant, not lost, pension pots by 2050. To suggest that 50 million pension pots will be lost unless a pensions dashboard is introduced is wholly inaccurate: I want to make that very clear. We are looking through the whole process and at experience overseas in order to understand more about pensions dashboards. The noble Lord knows that the whole process is very complex. We are working through the options around scheme participation in any potential pensions dashboard. The decision whether to compel participation depends on a number of issues, such as the functionality, delivery model and governance of the dashboard. We will set out the Government’s view in due course.

Occupational Pension Schemes (Master Trusts) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Wednesday 18th July 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Perhaps the Minister will agree to write to me.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will write to him and share what I write with all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate.

I want to touch on the kind words of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, in reference to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne. All too often, committees that are not on the Floor of the House or in the Moses Room are quietly proceeding on the more technical and difficult issues and we do not pay them due regard in a public manner. I want to do that now. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for complimenting the department on getting it right in terms of our consideration of and the detail in the regulations. That is important because we are protecting people’s lifetime savings. We want to do this to the best of our ability while allowing many more people to take part in the scheme.

I am sure I do not need to persuade your Lordships that with millions of hard-working people now saving towards their pensions, it is only fair and proper that their savings are protected and that the schemes they are saving with are of a high quality and offer good value. The regulations will help to achieve this by bringing into effect a new regulatory regime which will ensure that schemes are well run. For the past couple of years, the Pensions Regulator has been working closely with master trusts to help them prepare for these changes. Following the introduction of the regulations, my officials and staff at the Pensions Regulator will continue to work closely with the industry—that is an important point to make—to support it in its preparations for making an application for authorisation and going forward.

I wish to thank all noble Lords again for their excellent contributions. Some of their questions were very difficult, I have to say.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I start by acknowledging the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, in our deliberations—particularly on cold calling, which he has been focused on. I am not sure that we are meant to, under the rules, but I also welcome the Minister from the other place, who is with us and hoping not to get the Bill back for another round of ping-pong. We will see.

The consumer protection function of the single financial guidance body is part of the armoury to build a case for banning cold calling and unsolicited direct marketing for consumer financial products. It adds to the abolition of cold calling for pensions and CMCs that is now in the Bill. As sent back from the Commons, the Bill requires the SFGB to consider the impact of unsolicited direct marketing on consumers, publish from time to time an assessment of whether such activity has a detrimental effect on consumers and advise the Secretary of State whether to make regulations under the cold calling provisions of the Bill.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, seeks to add a requirement for the SFGB to additionally publish an assessment,

“not less than once every two years”.

Given where we are in the process, I frankly doubt that this requirement would add value. Surely the key is to have flexible arrangements so that the body can respond to emerging issues and report expeditiously as and when evidence of detriment is available. If the noble Lord’s concern is that the SFGB will somehow let this function lie fallow, I am sure that the Minister can put something on the record in her response.

Amendment 10A—also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey—seeks to ban,

“the use by any person of data obtained in contravention of the prohibition”,

of cold calling for pensions and,

“determine the penalties for any such contravention”.

A further amendment seeks a parallel prohibition on data from cold calling for claims management services. It is understood that through measures in this Bill—which will be complemented by existing and forthcoming data protection legislation—where personal data is obtained through an unlawful cold call, further use of that data would be contrary to the Data Protection Act 1998. I understand that fines for such abuse are about to be raised significantly. Through the general data protection regulation and the Data Protection Bill going through Parliament, these matters will be addressed and prohibited. The issue is important and it is certainly important that we hear from the Minister on the second amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his amendments, which give us an opportunity to reiterate some of the assurances that I hope I have already made, both through the passage of the Bill and about where we go now. It is a pleasure to echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie: although we appreciate the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and understand where he is coming from, the Government expect—I stress this—the body to be flexible and responsive to emerging issues. We expect it to report promptly as and when evidence of consumer detriment in relation to cold calling is available. Our concern is that as soon as one says, “It’s every year” or “It’s every two years”, the situation in departments and bodies such as the new one can so easily become a box-ticking exercise. We do not want it to be that. We want to be sure that the body will be able to respond as issues emerge, particularly real evidence of consumer detriment. Having been through the process of the Bill and talked to all those currently working in the three existing bodies that will be transferred shortly into the one single financial guidance body, I have great trust that the level of expertise and experience we will be able to transfer to the new body is such that they will have a strong eye on this. I assure noble Lords that there is strong feeling in support of what we seek to do both in your Lordships’ House and way beyond. We have listened to noble Lords on these issues and we will act firmly to protect consumers where appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, Amendment 19 places a duty on the Law Society of England and Wales to cap fees in relation to financial services claims management activity, as well as giving a power to the Law Society of Scotland to restrict fees charged for this activity. It also gives a power for some legal services regulators in England and Wales to restrict fees charged for broader claims management services. Alongside this, Amendment 20 gives the Treasury a power to extend the Law Society of Scotland’s fee capping power to broader activity in future.

Amendments 16, 17 and 18 ensure that the interim fee cap provisions, introduced as a concessionary amendment in your Lordships’ House, work together with the fee capping powers for legal regulators. Taken alongside the fee restriction powers for the FCA that we have already agreed should form part of the Bill, these provisions will ensure that consumers are protected, no matter which type of claims management service provider they use, and whether it is regulated by the legal service regulators or by the FCA.

They will also ensure that the relevant regulators are able to adapt to any future changes in the market and that there is continuity of coverage for the interim fee cap throughout the transfer of regulation. Indeed, the honourable Member in another place Jack Dromey MP put it well when he said:

“The clauses are sensible because they go beyond claims management companies. … Of course it is about not only CMCs, but legal service providers”.—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Guidance and Claims Bill Committee, 6/2/18; col. 95.]


I hope that noble Lords will agree with this sentiment and will accept Amendments 16 to 20, as made in the other place. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, if my honourable friend Jack Dromey is happy with these, I have to be as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Buscombe]

I once again thank very much all noble Lords who have taken part in the many debates in your Lordships’ House on the Bill. We have come a long way and there has been huge consensus. We have improved the Bill, along with our honourable friends in another place, and I hope that all noble Lords can wish it well. In particular, on the future of the new body, I hope that we will know its name soon so that we can start calling it something in our future debates on this subject.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, if it is time to say our thank yous, I will add mine to those of all noble Lords who have participated in these debates. There have been robust exchanges on what was initially quite a narrow Bill, but its coverage has been expanded, quite appropriately. I certainly thank the Bill team. I know that, on our side, we have probably put them through some misery with our questions from time to time, but when we have had the opportunity to touch base in that way, it has been really helpful to the passage of the Bill in this place. I wish the Bill well on its passage into legislation.

Personal Independence Payments

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I hear what the noble Lord is saying. This is one of the reasons why the immediate response of my colleague the Minister for Disabled People—and indeed the Secretary of State—was not only to decide not to question the judgment but to do everything we can to help claimants. That is why we have already had early meetings with stakeholders and organisations who can help us think through how to ensure that we do not make mistakes going forward. It is important to say that the 2017 amending regulations did not represent a policy change. The distinction was based on the considered advice of highly qualified medical advisers, and the activities considered in PIP are used as a proxy for assessing a claimant’s overall level of need in daily life, which is what we were focusing on.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister on several occasions used the term “generous” in describing the Government’s position. By what yardstick is “generous” measured in these terms?

[Baroness Buscombe]

The noble Lord will understand that since 2010, spending on the main disability benefits comprising PIP, DLA and attendance allowance has risen by £4.2 billion. Disability benefits are at a record high this year. Indeed, as a share of GDP, the UK’s public spending on disability and incapacity is higher than in all other G7 countries bar Germany.

It is important to focus on the components in terms of spending on PIP and the DLA equivalence, which of course was what we had under the Labour Government. As at October 2017, 66% of PIP recipients with a mental health condition received the enhanced rate daily living component, compared with 22% receiving the highest rate DLA care component as at May 2013. Some 31% of PIP recipients with a mental health condition get the enhanced rate mobility component as at October 2017, compared with 10% receiving the higher rate DLA mobility component as at May 2013. I could go on with more figures. If one compares the percentage of spending by this department with other departments within the Government’s budget, we are, as we should be, strongly focused on how we can help those with physical and with mental health conditions to do a very dynamic thing that PIP stands for: have the independence to cope with their lives, whatever their condition.

Financial Assistance Scheme (Increased Cap for Long Service) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

What struck me when I looked at the data was that for the last year, up to March 2016, there were still some 23 schemes transferred into FAS, notwithstanding that it was 10 years or more since the obligation to commence winding up. If I understand correctly and there were 23 schemes for that period, how many were left out of the subsequent period and have been chopped off? This is particularly an issue if the failure—if it is a failure—to pick up that detail was with the trustees or the scheme administrator, because the consequence would fall on the individual member of the scheme.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I understand the question posed by the noble Lord; indeed, when I was discussing this with officials, I was amazed that it took 10 years. To begin with, I could not understand why the scheme closed to new entrants as late as 2016. I cannot say whether the figure of 23 schemes is correct for the final year but I will check and respond to the noble Lord; I shall seek to find out how many were left out and how many individuals might thereby have lost out. I also have a little more information regarding Tata: because this provision applies to schemes wound up before 2005, it is relevant not to Tata but to the PPF scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked why the Government have taken so long to introduce the long service cap. There have been significant reforms to pension legislation over the last few years, and the introduction of the FAS long service cap is the latest change in a programme of work to treat members of the FAS and PPF schemes more consistently. I hope the noble Lord will accept that pension legislation is complex. It was important that we consulted on draft FAS long service cap regulations to ensure that the legislation operated as intended and did not have any unintended consequences. As a result, December 2017 was the earliest that we could lay the regulations. I appreciate that members of the FAS will be frustrated by the perceived delay but we had a legal obligation to consult on the regulations. The public consultation helpfully identified some small changes that were required to ensure that the regulations operate as intended for eligible FAS members.

We also had to ensure—I think this brings us on to the next question posed by the noble Lord—that the costs were proportionate and to structure the long service cap to ensure that no further costs would be incurred. The noble Lord was very concerned about the administrative cost. I share that concern; it seems like an enormous amount of money for the relatively few people affected. At least I can confirm that the costs are less than had first been forecast. It would be fair to say from the department’s perspective that we are continually looking at where costs can be kept to a minimum, not least because those costs fall on the taxpayer.

While in the past there has been much criticism and scepticism around the introduction of digital systems to support more effective, efficient and cost-effective systems for the administration of such schemes, it is fair to say that systems are proving more robust as technology advances and becomes more understood by users. However, it is incumbent on all of us to keep an eye on that in terms of ensuring that we do all that we can to reduce costs. The trouble is that we are talking about checking records of individuals. That takes time and sometimes it is easier to do manually for such a small number of people. I accept the noble Lord’s point: in some ways, one might question whether it is simpler and more cost effective to do it manually. I take very much on board what he has said.

With regard to transaction costs, going on from what I have just said—sorry to string this out—the PPF, which administers the FAS, is currently in-sourcing member data from Capita. The FAS data is currently out of date, incomplete and often paper-based, requiring manual processing and checking, and that is not a one-off cost. We should continue to look at that and encourage those who administer the scheme to do the same, although I am sure they are cognisant of these considerable costs.

The regulations will ensure that individuals who have worked hard for a single employer for many years are not penalised by the cap. This group of savers have built up a large pension pot, not because they are high earners but because they have worked for one employer for the majority of their working lives and, as a result, will not have had the opportunity to secure additional income in retirement.

The decision to increase the total amount of assistance that this group can receive has not been taken lightly, as the Financial Assistance Scheme is funded by the taxpayer. As my noble friend Lady Altmann said, a considerable amount of consultation, lobbying, and so on, was undertaken to encourage the Government to introduce the regulations. But to leave the situation unchanged would create an inequitable situation where those with long service in the Pension Protection Fund were treated more favourably than those in the Financial Assistance Scheme and break our commitment made in another place on 15 September 2016.

I reassure all noble Lords that no new funding commitments have been or will be made in respect of the scheme. Since 2005, employer insolvencies have fallen under the jurisdiction of the Pension Protection Fund. Unlike the Financial Assistance Scheme, the Pension Protection Fund is mainly funded by an industry levy and is therefore not reliant on the public purse.

I believe that the correct balance has been struck between securing meaningful income in retirement for members compensated by the Financial Assistance Scheme and the cost to the taxpayer. I have outlined in detail the issues that the regulations will address and why the Government have decided to act. Now is the right time to correct this problem, and I ask that the Motion be approved.

Private Sector Pension Abuse

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the UQ asked in the other place. Yesterday, the Prime Minister chose to announce via the media that, in part in response to the collapse of Carillion, the Government plan to introduce tough new rules to stop private sector pension abuse—so we are to play catch-up again, it seems, following the pensions freedoms debacle. Carillion had 13 defined benefit schemes in the UK, with some 27,500 members and a combined pensions deficit of some £600 million.

We know that, according to its chief executive, Carillion had been on the radar of the PPF “for some time”, and it was on the watch-list by autumn 2017. Carillion gave its first profit warning in July of that year and its second on 29 September. The Pensions Regulator reported the close monitoring of risks and that it had had “heightened engagement” with the company since July’s profit warning. It apparently had some discussions with Carillion on a regulated apportionment arrangement but these came to naught.

Given the level of engagement and knowledge, which particular tightening of the regulatory framework are the Government considering? Precisely what additional powers for the regulator are contemplated, and what difference does the Minister think these would have made in the Carillion circumstances now faced?

More generally—I think that the Minister has confirmed this—in accordance with the Work and Pensions Select Committee recommendations, there will be a number of recommendations concerning mandatory clearance powers for corporate activities that put pension schemes at risk and new powers to fine those who act in an irresponsible manner. If the Government support those recommendations, how quickly does the Minister consider they will reach the statute book?

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for mentioning that the Prime Minister clearly takes this situation extremely seriously. He reiterated that we intend to strengthen the regulator’s powers. Importantly, we have done that with care, introducing a Green Paper last year, and we have committed to the publication of a White Paper in the spring. Although the Pensions Regulator and the Pension Protection Fund manage the process of company insolvencies, and while most pension schemes are managed successfully and very robustly, we accept that there are instances where it might be possible to improve and strengthen the powers. We have received more than 800 responses to the Green Paper. The department is analysing these and will bring forward proposals as quickly as possible.

It is important to emphasise—I sense that the noble Lord opposite appreciates this—that it is hypothetical to suggest that a different set of powers for the Pensions Regulator, such as the ability to clear corporate activities, would have necessarily made a material difference to the pension schemes. Having said that, there has been strong communication between the regulator and Carillion since the middle of last year, when a profit warning was announced. But of course, a profit warning is a warning as opposed to a transaction, so it was not necessarily a sign that the company overall was in such difficulty.

It is important to stress that we are very keen to strengthen the powers but, at the same time, we need to ensure that the new measures we introduce build on existing measures that to a large extent have worked extremely well since 2004, as I said before. However, we want to strengthen the Pensions Regulator’s anti-avoidance framework and information-gathering powers.

I am afraid that as yet, I cannot be certain about when legislation will be forthcoming. Obviously, we will look forward to and welcome the consultations and responses to the White Paper.

Improving Lives: The Future of Work, Health and Disability

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 30th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Sterling for his contribution. I commend him and pay tribute to the work that he has done with Motability. The Government recognise the valuable service that Motability provides to those with disabilities and health conditions, and we look forward to continuing to work closely with it.

My noble friend recognises that not enough disabled people are in employment. We feel that we have come a long way, but we have a lot further to go. That is why we have set out this ambitious wish to have 1 million more people with disabilities employed over the next 10 years. That is why it is important that we work with groups such as Motability and others to make this happen.

My noble friend is absolutely right that this is not about party politics. Indeed, in welcoming this report, the Mayor for London said this morning that it is time to put party politics aside on this issue. It is, frankly, too important.

My noble friend referred to making employers less nervous. I agree. That is why we are working hard in that area to encourage more employers to come on board. We have launched the Disability Confident business leaders group and started roll-out of the Small Employer Offer and Community Partners. We know some employers want more help to be able confidently to support disabled people in work, and that is why we will do more to improve advice and support: researching and identifying solutions with employers to bring together advice that is easy to find and use; improving access to work by increasing the capacity of the mental health support service; trialling personal budgets; creating an expectation that equipment will move with individuals when they move jobs—which is very important and we have to be practical about it; warm words are not enough—and increasing the reach and effectiveness of Disability Confident.

I take on board my noble friend’s reference to not making it law but encouraging everyone to understand and work with those with disability from an early age. That would make all the difference in the world.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, in introducing the Statement, the Minister promulgated the importance of work being good for people’s health and well-being. We agree with that—it is Waddell and Burton going back over a decade. The Minister referred to “good work” when she focused on this issue. Can she say how “good work” is characterised for these purposes, as opposed to the opposite, particularly in the context of limited and variable-hours contracts?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, good work is about supporting people to stay in work as well as supporting them to move into employment; making them feel comfortable in healthier workplaces, while offering the right support for staff to help keep them productive and engaged in work; utilising the broad spectrum of the health system to promote good health; and helping individuals to better manage their conditions. We genuinely believe that people who are in work need proper support; otherwise, their roles will not be sustainable. Too many people are not staying in work once they are in there. Our true definition of good work is where people feel able to cope, continue to feel able to cope and can progress within the workplace. Good work for individuals is not being seen as having been given a job—that is good enough. That is not good enough for us, and that is what we must focus on.

On the issue of employment contracts and so on, we want to ensure that people are able to work in a way that is sustainable. Many people working on zero-hours contracts, for example, find that they are better able to cope with their work/life balance and so on in that environment.

Pension Schemes Act 2015 (Transitional Provisions and Appropriate Independent Advice) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the introduction and explanation of the regulations. As ever, I am delighted to have the expertise of my noble friend Lady Drake alongside me on these occasions.

The regulations derive, as we have heard, from Section 48 of Pension Schemes Act 2015 and are an integral part of the pension freedoms introduced with effect from April 2015. They focus on the requirements on trustees or managers of a pension scheme in Great Britain to ensure that appropriate independent advice has been received before safeguarded benefits can be converted, one way or another, to flexible benefits.

These regulations, as we have heard, sit alongside other regulations, of the negative variety, which concern requirements for schemes to provide risk warnings where members have the benefit of a GAR—guaranteed annuity rate—which they might otherwise be in danger of relinquishing. Together with the transitional provisions for the advice requirements, these are described in the Explanatory Memorandum as a package and we comment on them on that basis.

The requirement to get regulated advice currently operates when an individual’s safeguarded benefits are valued at more than £30,000. It is suggested that the detail of this requires amendment because the basis of calculation is unduly complicated in some circumstances and can lead to situations where the calculation of the advice threshold exceeds £30,000 but the pension pot size is different. Having two different valuations is said to be confusing, and we understand that point.

The impact assessment explains that these complications exist because the valuation regulations currently applied were previously used only by occupational DB schemes and that the circumstances in which they now have to be applied do not generally have standardised processes in place to value GAR benefits in terms of the current value of the future income they offer. As we have heard, the solution offered by these regulations is to adopt the transfer value of the pot in the calculations determining whether the £30,000 threshold for getting regulated advice is reached.

On an ongoing basis, this will save individuals with safeguarded flexible benefits some £11 million per year in advice fees. As we have heard, it will remove some 12,000 people per year from the need to get advice before they access pension pots, although they will be brought within the risk warning arrangements. This seems to be taking matters in the wrong direction. Changing the basis of calculation might be administratively or arithmetically convenient, but what assessment have the Government undertaken of the appropriateness of removing so many people from the benefit of advice?

It is accepted that individuals will no longer have to meet the cost of advice, but they will not be getting the benefit of that advice either. Of course, fewer requirements for regulated advice means fewer fees paid by individuals, but will the Minister remind us about the circumstances in which individuals can access their pension pot to pay for advice, the limits and the tax treatment? Do the Government have any information about the extent to which this is used?

The Explanatory Memorandum makes reference to the potential for inconsistent treatment of members regarding when advice is required when schemes can exercise more generous transfers. Will the Minister tell us how this issue is to be dealt with? We support the concept of risk warnings and the principle of informing members of their safeguarded flexible benefits. This should be the responsibility of ceding schemes and should happen before proceeding to transfer, convert or flexibly access scheme benefits. It should apply to survivors with safeguarded benefits.

We agree that those already required to take advice should be included in the risk warnings. We support there being no de minimis exemption on the basis of pot size. On timing, which my noble friend raised, it is proposed that the risk warning should be sent at least 14 days before any live request completes. Why can the warning not be sent, as my noble friend asked, as soon as a member request to transfer or access the flexible benefits is received?

The Government’s response to the consultation on these matters has confirmed the approach to the content of the risk warning and the inclusion of two comparable pension illustrations tailored to the member’s age, pot size and contribution rate and with details of guarantees available.

Paragraph 44 states that the Government are not convinced of the need to explain the difference between personalised tax warnings and the statutory money purchase illustrations. Will the Minister expand on the rationale for this position?

Can the Minister also confirm that she is confident that there should be no confusion arising from obligations in respect of retirement wake-up packs and personalised risk warnings? The written element of the risk warning is, according to the impact assessment, to include the signposting to free and impartial guidance—Pension Wise currently or SFGB, or whatever it is going to be called, in due course. As my noble friend has said, this is about the weakest indication of support, bearing in mind that many would previously have had to take advice. As my noble friend proposes, is this not the type of situation now potentially covered by amendments to the Financial Guidance and Claims Bill where individuals can be defaulted to the guidance service with an obligation to demonstrate that they have received guidance before proceeding?

We will not oppose these regulations, although in some respects we consider them a missed opportunity. However, they illustrate the complexity of aspects of our pensions system and the importance of ensuring that individuals are fully supported to understand the value of their pension entitlements.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank all noble Lords and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for taking part in the debate. I will do my level best to respond to the questions as fully as I am able. The noble Lord, Lord Jones, first asked about the legal term “survivor”. “Survivor” in the regulations means a person who has survived the member and has a right to future benefits or is entitled to benefits under the scheme in respect of that member. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and the noble Lord, Lord Jones, referred to survivors. I want to make clear that these regulations apply to both members and survivors. Where an individual inherits a member’s subsisting rights in respect of safeguarded benefits and those benefits exceed the advice threshold of £30,000 the survivor is also required to take financial advice. Survivors who inherit a member’s safeguarded flexible benefits will also receive a personalised risk warning should they decide to transfer, convert or flexibly access their inherited pension rights. The risk warning is sent to whoever is making a decision about their pension saving at the point they are most engaged in that decision.

In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, about what is included in the definition of safeguarded flexible benefits, the simplest description of a safeguarded flexible benefit is a cash pot with some form of promise or guarantee that the member can convert their pot into a pension income at a predetermined rate. We have framed the definition in fairly general terms, rather than specifically to the types of pension arrangements it covers, such as guaranteed annuity rates, in order to limit the scope for omissions or avoidance. Those uncertain whether the regulations apply should seek appropriate legal expertise and advice.

I turn to the question of what GARs in occupational schemes are not money purchase. GARs that are included in the rules of the pension scheme irrespective of whether this was reflected in the terms of a contract between the trustee and a third party, such as an insurer, are not money purchase. In this situation, the scheme would be liable to fund benefits over and above what the scheme assets—including the contract—can provide. So the benefits are technically non-money purchase and are, therefore, safeguarded benefits.

The noble Baroness also asked about members who are told about their guarantees too late. The question was, why not require schemes to tell members about their guarantees earlier on? The regulations laid alongside these regulations will require trustees and scheme managers to send members information about their valuable guarantees at precisely the point that the member is most engaged in considering what to do with their pension savings. This, we believe, makes them more effective at increasing awareness of guarantees among members than forcing schemes to send regular information long before members’ retirement, when they may not be actively considering a decision.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Just on that point, is it the Government’s position that they would support those amendments as currently carried and included in the Bill?

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the noble Lord for the question. Yes, the Government will accept the amendment in the other place but of course we cannot speak for other Members in the other place, who may think differently. Certainly, the expectation is that the amendment will see Royal Assent.

There was a suggestion that our legislation is reducing protection for members of defined benefit schemes, but these regulations have no impact on the vast majority of such schemes or their members. They will still be subject to the same requirement for regulated financial advice where their benefits exceed the same threshold, and the same valuations will continue to apply. In the small proportion of schemes that choose to offer more generous transfer values than are required by law, members whose defined benefit pensions are worth in the region of £20,000 to £30,000 are being treated more fairly. They will not be forced to take advice when members with the same rights in other defined benefit schemes are not. These members can of course opt to take advice and will be able to seek guidance, which can signal the option of advice before transferring.

There was a question about whether we were reducing member protection and making it easier for savers to surrender their guarantees. We remain committed to the principle of the advice safeguard. That is why the threshold to whom it is applied remains the same—those with safeguarded benefits with a value of over £30,000—and with the introduction of these regulations, for the majority of members with safeguarded benefits there will be no change in how their pension is valued and calculated for the purpose of the advice requirement.

However, where a pot is cash-based but has a safeguarded element, such as the option of a guaranteed annuity rate, these regulations deliver simplification and clarity. Trustees and scheme managers now have to produce only one valuation of the member’s pot. A single figure is easily explained and avoids confusing members because it makes it clearer what the members may receive if they proceed to transfer, convert or otherwise flexibly access their savings. At the same time, parallel regulations introduce new protections that are timely—sent at the point members are making a decision—and increase the total number of members informed that their pots contain guarantees.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the work that has been done on assessing the impact of the regulations. The Department for Work and Pensions estimates that there will be approximately 12,400 individuals per year who no longer need to try to find advice. The noble Lord said that he felt that these regulations were a missed opportunity. I reconfirm, as I said at the outset of this brief debate, that it is very important to take on board the fact that the Department for Work and Pensions is continually reviewing and assessing the impact of regulations, following the protection freedoms. If it is found that more needs to be done, changed or amended, we will certainly do that through secondary legislation.

The regulations debated here today simplify how trustees and scheme managers value members’ pensions when determining whether the requirement to take advice applies. Pension schemes with members who hold safeguarded flexible benefits—mainly but not exclusively personal pension contracts that include the option of an annuity at a guaranteed rate—can use the transfer value of the member’s pot, instead of undertaking a complex actuarial calculation.

Representatives of consumers and industry have both sought and supported the simplification of the current valuation method that these regulations deliver, and both groups will benefit from its implementation. Consumers with safeguarded flexible benefits will be less confused when they inquire about transferring or accessing their pot because they will receive only one valuation, and the difficulties for industry when valuing these guarantees will be removed.

Finally, these regulations form part of a package of measures. If approved, they will come into force alongside a new requirement to send all members tailored communications, ensuring that all members are told about their valuable benefits in a more timely and accessible manner. There will also no longer be a cohort of individuals who are required to seek financial advice, but are often unable to locate an adviser willing to advise on their pension savings. I hope I have set out for the Committee the need for these regulations and have responded to the matters raised. I commend these draft regulations to the Committee.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

3rd reading (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

Perhaps I may respond quickly to my noble friend Lord Hunt. Both we and the Financial Conduct Authority are aware that our plans for whiplash reform could have an impact on this market. I reassure him that the FCA will certainly keep this sector under review and will monitor developments closely during the implementation phase.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, given the strong consensus that has emerged from the noble Lords who have spoken on these amendments—the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Altmann, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt—I can be brief. We support these amendments and we also support the provisions in the Bill, particularly in relation to a senior manager regime. That is very important.

Amendments 14 to 24 respond to the Scottish Government’s request for the regulation of CMCs to be extended to Scotland, and they will also help to negate the concerns that have been expressed about cross-border planning.

With regard to Amendment 25, although she is not here today, we should place on record our thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for leading the charge on this issue. As others have noted, the cap has been set at 20% exclusive of VAT, which is at the upper end of the range on which the Government consulted. However, we should see that in context. Currently it is suggested that the average fee rate for CMCs is some 37% of gross revenue, which is almost double the level at which the cap has been set.

It may be appropriate to remind ourselves of the scale of PPI, which I know will be coming to an end in August. I think that banks’ finance companies have paid out more than £26 billion in compensation over recent years. That is an extraordinary amount of money, and I wonder what that injection of funding to the consumer has done to the economy. It is important that the cap bites as soon as possible. Can the Minister confirm that the cap will apply to charges arising after the entering into force of Clause 21—just two months after this legislation comes into force—notwithstanding that the claims to which they relate may have preceded that? Can she confirm that it is not the date of the claim that is relevant for these purposes but the date when the compensation is paid?

Amendment 29 would appear to limit the application of the cap so that it does not apply to Scotland in respect of charges relating to claims prior to the transfer of regulation to the FCA. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that my understanding is correct. It would also seem to deny the application of Schedule 4 to Scotland. This schedule is concerned in part with transfer schemes in relation to the FCA. Perhaps the Minister could say what, if any, restructuring in Scotland might be affected by this change and how it would be affected if Schedule 4 were not applied to it.

Overall, we support these important amendments and look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I am so afraid of making a mistake at this late stage that I would prefer to write to him in reply.

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[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I would like to take a moment to reflect on the Bill and its passage through your Lordships’ House. This is important legislation that will benefit members of the public and provide a sustainable legislative framework for public financial guidance and the regulation of claims management companies in the future. It has improving financial capability at its heart and I am proud to be associated with it.

At Second Reading I said that I hoped we would have constructive engagement as the Bill progressed through this House. Your Lordships have not disappointed. The Bill has rightly been accorded due and diligent attention from noble Lords across the House, and I would like to thank all those who have engaged on the Floor of the House and also in the many meetings we have had outside.

I would like also to thank my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham for all his help and assistance as the Bill has progressed. He has been a tower of strength and a more than able co-pilot throughout.

Finally, but importantly, I would like to thank the Bill team and officials across the Department for Work and Pensions, Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and the Ministry of Justice. Many of them have put in incredibly long hours to support my noble friend and me during debates, facilitate briefing meetings and provide the updates, letters and briefings that many noble Lords have received. I may add that other noble Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referenced the cross-departmental support we have had. It has been amazing and has made an enormous difference to the outcome of the Bill.

Throughout the passage of the Bill we have listened to the arguments and suggestions made by noble Lords, and, in many cases, have agreed and brought forward amendments that strengthen it. I think we can all agree that this Bill leaves here in good shape, and I believe that this is in no small part due to the helpful and constructive manner in which all sides of the House have engaged with it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I will say just a few words. I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, for her kind words. We are grateful again for the open-minded manner in which she and her co-pilot, the noble Lord, Lord Young, have approached the Bill. I never had the opportunity to ask him whether Luton Airport was on the flight path, but I will try to on a future occasion.

Invariably it is said at the end of a Bill process that the House of Lords has improved the Bill from its starting point. While tenuous in some instances, it is definitely true with this Bill. Support across the Chamber has enabled the framework for a debt respite scheme; consumer protection on cold calling; strengthening access to information and guidance on accessing pensions; a duty of care on setting standards; requiring that pensions guidance functions are provided freely and impartially; strengthening offences of mimicking; as well as securing the dashboard. These changes have come about because, broadly, we have had a shared analysis of what the Bill could achieve; a shared analysis with the Lib Dems and Cross-Benchers as well as with the Government, including the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann.

We are very grateful for the proactive approach of the Bill team, which went above and beyond in trying to fit our amendments into the confines of the scope of the Bill. I do not know how many variations of the debt respite provisions the team had to cope with, but there were many. I offer my thanks to the Lib Dems for their joint working on some key areas, among them the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.

Finally, I thank my colleagues, my noble friend Lady Drake, our pensions supremo who unfortunately is not in her place today, and of course my noble friend Lord Stevenson for his experience and passion on matters of the debt space. It has made my role a good deal easier.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I can be brief. We welcome the Government’s amendments, which would place in the Bill a duty on the FCA to make rules requiring information to be given to consumers and members of the public by relevant organisations and persons about the availability of impartial financial guidance. This requirement will cover all information, guidance and advice provided by the single financial guidance body.

The substance of our debate on this group has been Amendment 29A, which strengthens the government amendment with the intent of increasing the use of the new financial guidance service by placing a duty on the FCA to make general rules requiring specified persons to refer specified members of the public to the new body for guidance. The FCA must also specify the manner and circumstances in which the duty to refer applies. Therefore, the amendment puts the FCA in the driving seat, which is the thrust of the amendment. The noble Baroness said that this was basically what the FCA was about in any event, in which case I would ask: if we are at one in what we are trying to achieve here on the authority that the FCA should have, why not enshrine it in the Bill?

[Baroness Buscombe]

I have already spoken in detail on Amendment 29A, so I am possibly at risk of repeating everything that I have said. However, I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, to refer to Hansard, where he will see that since 19 July we have been discussing the very issue about which he is concerned.

The truth is that we are setting up a single financial guidance body which we hope will be even better than the bodies that already exist when it comes to improving people’s financial capability and giving them regulated advice and guidance. That is the purpose of the Bill. I hope that I have persuaded noble Lords that Amendment 29A is not necessary and that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw it.

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[Baroness Buscombe]

Amendments 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 would revise Clause 14 and insert a new clause into the Bill. Clause 14 makes provision for the winding up of the single financial guidance body and for its functions, property, rights or liabilities to be transferred to the Secretary of State or another body. These amendments would add safeguards to the procedures for dissolving the body should that be necessary in the future.

In drafting these amendments, we have listened carefully to the concerns raised in previous debates by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. As a result, we have studied the approaches taken in both the Public Bodies Act 2011 and the Enterprise Act 2016 to provisions to dissolve arm’s-length bodies.

As I explained in Committee, we would expect stakeholders, the public and other interested parties to have the opportunity to give their views before any decision to dissolve the new body was made. We are now putting that beyond doubt by setting out clearly that a public consultation will be required before the Government can lay any draft regulations to dissolve the body.

The amendments also provide assurance that any draft regulations cannot be laid until at least 12 weeks after the consultation has begun. This allows a suitable period of time for consultation and consideration of the responses to take place. In addition, the amendments require that the Secretary of State must, alongside any draft regulations, lay before Parliament a document to explain the rationale behind dissolving the body.

The amendments also give Members of both Houses the opportunity to request that the period for scrutinising the draft regulations be increased from the usual 40-day period to 60 days. During this time, the Secretary of State must have regard to any representations, resolutions and recommendations made by either House, their Members or committees.

I trust that noble Lords will agree that we have listened carefully and responded fully to the strength of feeling on the need for consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. I trust too that they will agree that these amendments provide those important safeguards. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, when we debated in Committee an amendment to Clause 14 requiring a more extensive parliamentary process for the dissolution of the SFGB than that set out in the Bill, the Minister promised to reflect on the matter. This she has done and we are grateful for that.

As the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee set out in its first report of Session 2017-19, under the Bill as drafted the Minister does not have to be satisfied as to anything before deciding to abolish the body, does not have to consult, does not have to conduct a formal review and does not have to wait a certain time to see whether the new body is working well before deciding to abolish it. Each of those deficiencies appears to have been taken into account in the government amendments. Amendment 39 enables the super-affirmative process to be applied if either House or a relevant committee of either House so determines, and the process is reflected in the detail of the amendment. This requires that the Secretary of State must have regard to the representations received and any recommendations of either House or of a relevant committee. Effectively this means that Parliament can directly influence the terms of the regulations.

We should note that the provisions of Clause 14 have effect not only to dissolve SFGB but to determine where and to whom its functions are to be transferred.

We can support the amendments and I thank the Minister again for addressing the concerns which have been raised.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his comprehensive introduction of this important package of amendments, which we support in its entirety. As we have heard, fundamentally it would enable a ban on cold calling across the piece, together with related reporting functions to the FCA on consumer detriment. We should congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on his drafting, which would enable us to proceed now with a ban. We know the detriment that cold calling can bring, not only by CMCs but in the pensions arena, and the harm that can produce.

A number of noble Lords touched on this. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, talked about vulnerability in the digital age and how damaging that can be. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, spoke about the opportunity to do something today to help deal with a process that causes real mental harm. We agree with that. The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, talked about the scams around holiday sickness and the impact of the advance of technology if we do not get stuck into this sooner rather than later—the need to deal with the “omnipresent social menace”, as he put it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, on his challenge to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. If it is not in this piece of legislation, when will it happen?

The FCA recently published its Financial Lives Survey 2017, which identified that in the last 12 months, 23% of adults, or 11.6 million, received an unsolicited approach, although of course that does not mean that they would all have necessarily suffered detriment from that. Banning cold calling is not only an opportunity to deal with a nuisance, it is an effective way of disrupting the business models of the scammers and fraudsters. Perhaps this would be an opportunity to get to those higher-end activities to which the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred.

I know the Minister is supportive of a ban on “every type” of call, because she told us so in Committee, but the strenuous efforts of Ministers have apparently failed to deliver on that aspiration. Notwithstanding the asserted complexity that the legislation might entail, we were told that if it was in scope, it would be in the Bill. It seems that it is in scope. That hurdle has been overcome, so what is the problem? We accept that there may be some complexity in drafting, but surely nothing beyond the wit of parliamentary counsel.

We urge the Government to make progress. Every day that goes by without the ban holds the risk that someone somewhere will be defrauded of their savings, their life turned upside down. We may hear from the Government, as we have before, that there are already restrictions on cold calling and unsolicited direct marketing, but this has not prevented consumer detriment continuing. On several occasions during our debates the Minister has told us she has disconnected her landline. If there is such confidence in the current framework, why on earth would that be necessary?

This is a hugely important issue, which is why we have common cause around the Chamber from pretty much all Benches. This is an opportunity to do something now. If we do not do it now, when will it be? I urge the whole House to support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate with which we begin our Report stage on this important Bill. Amendments 1, 2 and 7, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Sharkey, my noble friend Lady Altmann and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, would introduce a consumer protection function for the body and a statutory duty in respect of cold calling. I want to say straightaway that we do not believe that Amendments 1, 2 and 7 would depend on each other to work.

Amendments 1 and 7 would set a statutory function for the Financial Conduct Authority to pass on casework from consumers to the FCA on inappropriate, misleading or harassing approaches by financial services providers to consumers, as well as poor behaviour by providers in the areas of activity related to the body. The Government agree with the logic behind this but the Bill already gives the body the power to share information with the FCA under its information-sharing provisions. Specifically, Clause 12 contains a two-way information-sharing gateway between the single financial guidance body and the FCA that allows the disclosure of information, provided it is pursuant to the functions of either organisation. This would include information relating to cold calling on debt advice, debt management and pension access services.

The single financial guidance body will not exist in a vacuum. It will need to work closely with key stakeholders, and Clause 12 is designed to facilitate close working between the body and its sponsor department, the devolved authorities, the Financial Conduct Authority and the body’s delivery partners. The clause allows these key stakeholders to share information with the body and vice versa. The intention is to allow unpublished data, such as performance-related statistics and confidential insights gained into the financial guidance landscape, to be shared. This information may include personal data as long as any disclosure is in accordance with the Data Protection Act. The clause also allows information to be shared regarding suspected dishonest, unfair or unprofessional conduct by those supplying financial services so that the FCA can take appropriate action against the offending firm.

The powers would enable casework to be passed between the body and the FCA. We would expect that, subject to provisions in Clause 12 and the Data Protection Act, the body would share this with the FCA if that were the right thing to do for the individual. The Bill does not require the body to supply information of this kind to the FCA because there will often be circumstances in which it would be more beneficial for the customer to be signposted elsewhere—for example, to the Pensions Ombudsman Service or the Financial Ombudsman Service. As such, it is best for the body and the FCA to work out how this handover could take place using the powers in Clause 12.

To illustrate, let me give an example of what a consumer’s journey looks like today when impacted by fraud or scams, and what we see as the new body’s role to support the consumer. Where the body believes there has been wrongdoing, we would expect it to contact the FCA or other appropriate authorities. If an individual feels that they have been subject to inappropriate approaches or misconduct by an authorised firm, we would expect the new body to recommend to the individual that they contact the Financial Ombudsman Service or the Pensions Ombudsman Service, depending on the particular nature of their complaint. If an individual suspects that they have been contacted by an unauthorised firm or individual carrying out an FCA-regulated activity, it is already possible for the new body to transfer the casework to the FCA.

Furthermore, organisations involved with Project Bloom, a multi-agency group dedicated to tackling pension fraud scams—of which the FCA is part—have an agreed customer journey to which we would expect the new body to sign up. Part of this journey is that, if the individual or the body believes that a customer may have been a victim of a scam, the body should encourage them to contact Action Fraud, which is the UK’s national fraud reporting centre. The body would also recommend that customers contact Action Fraud when a customer or the guider suspects that the customer has been a victim of types of fraud other than pension scams. Action Fraud will collect information from the customer about the alleged fraud, and then act as a co-ordinator to cascade the information to the City of London Police or other relevant local police forces to investigate the issue further.

When you report a fraud to Action Fraud, you are given the option for your contact details to be passed on to Victim Support, a national charity that helps those affected by crime. If you take up this option, you will then be contacted by someone from the charity and offered free and confidential emotional support and practical help. Indeed, the Pensions Advisory Service currently encourages those who have been a victim of a pension scam to come back and contact TPAS for support in rebuilding their retirement savings, and offers a bespoke appointment where they discuss rebuilding pension funds and potential next steps. We would expect that the body would perform a similar service.

I hope this illustrates that a blanket obligation to share casework with the FCA would be unnecessary. A requirement for the body to share the casework could lead to adverse consequences; at worst, this could result in the customer being hindered in getting the right help that they need. I hope this reassures noble Lords that there is provision in the Bill for individuals to be channelled to the appropriate services if they have been victims of fraud or scams. It is of paramount importance that the body helps customers in this situation.

Amendment 2 introduces a statutory duty in respect of cold calling, which has been the subject of most noble Lords’ interventions this afternoon. The amendment seeks to do a number of things: to require the new body to publish an annual assessment of consumer detriment as a result of cold calling; to require the body to advise the Secretary of State to institute bans on cold calling if it thinks that would be conducive to its functions; and to give the Secretary of State the power to introduce a ban on cold calling, if recommended by the guidance body. I assure the House that the Government already do work to consider the impact that unsolicited calling has on consumers. Indeed, we have been clear that there is no place for nuisance calls or texts and there are already a number of measures in place to protect consumers from the impacts of such nuisance calls.

As I noted in Committee, the Information Commissioner’s Office enforces restrictions on unsolicited direct marketing. We have already increased the amount that regulators can fine those breaching direct marketing rules. On top of that, we have forced companies to display their number when calling people, and made it easier to prosecute wrongdoers.

As noble Lords will be aware, cold calling is already illegal in certain circumstances, such as where a person has registered with the Telephone Preference Service or has already withdrawn consent. Furthermore, the Bill already provides the possibility for the body to alert other organisations to any issues relating to cold calling. Clause 12 contains a two-way information-sharing gateway between the single financial guidance body and the FCA that allows the disclosure of information to each other, provided it is pursuant to the functions of either. This would include, for example, information relating to cold calling on debt advice, debt management, and pension access services. This information may include personal data, as long as any disclosure was in accordance with the Data Protection Act. The clause also allows information to be shared regarding suspected dishonest, unfair or unprofessional conduct by those supplying financial services, so that the FCA could take appropriate action against the offending firm.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I too thank the Government for the announcement that the dashboard is to be taken forward and acknowledge the role that has been played by several Members of your Lordships’ House, particularly my noble friend Lady Drake, who with her impeccable logic and powers of persuasion has really led the charge on this. I also acknowledge the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, who has long campaigned on this issue.

We know that the delivery of the dashboard will be a huge challenge, but it is an opportunity for individuals to see all their savings and pensions in one place, including the state pension. As my noble friend Lady Drake said, the key fact is that it is a single, public service dashboard, so that individuals who use it can have confidence that there will not be a conflict of interest between those seeking to use information and data to sell products and those who are genuinely attempting to help people to understand the pension pots that they have. The data shows that over their lifetime people could change their jobs 11 times. I am not sure how current that is, but 11 changes of jobs could mean as many as 11 pension pots. We know the challenges of small pension pots and how difficult it is for people to access those—they forget where they are. It is particularly an issue for women.

Hearing that the dashboard is to be taken forward makes this a good day. There is lots of hard work to do, and there are many governance issues for your Lordships’ House and others to keep an eye on as it gets developed.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, this amendment, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, is identical to the one tabled on 17 July 2017, which I have to say sounds an awful long time ago and feels it too. It would require the body to provide a pensions dashboard as part of its pensions guidance function. The purpose of pensions dashboards is to provide a clear picture of all an individual’s pension savings in one place, accessible online. Pensions dashboards are potentially an important tool to help people to take control of their retirement planning. With automatic enrolment, more people than ever before are saving into workplace pensions, and we know that the nature of work is changing, with more people taking a number of jobs in their lifetime—the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has just talked about 11 times possibly becoming an average. The ability of people to view their pension savings in one place could make a real difference in assisting them to plan and save for their retirement, including making better-informed choices on the financial impact on their pension provision of working longer if they choose to do so.

I promised to come back on Report with a full statement on the Government’s position on the dashboard project. The Government are firmly committed to the delivery of pensions dashboards and have restated our commitment, as announced last week at the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association conference in Manchester by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Pensions and Financial Inclusion in another place. It was announced that, to take forward this work, the Department for Work and Pensions will take lead responsibility for the policy within the Government and manage the next phase of the project. Working with industry, consumer organisations and regulators, the department will conduct a feasibility study to examine the complex issues that still need to be addressed, such as those highlighted by noble Lords today, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. We will share an update on this work by spring next year.

The very helpful report published on 12 October by the ABI-led pensions dashboard project sets out many of the key questions to be explored, and we will look at its research findings and recommendations in detail as part of the feasibility work. We are grateful to all those organisations involved in the project so far. The aims of the feasibility study will include the following: exploring in more detail what will be of the most use to individuals to help them plan effectively for their retirement, as consumers’ needs must be at the heart of our approach; the viability and implications of different delivery models; determining a suitable framework of governance for pensions dashboards; ensuring that consumer interests are safeguarded and their personal information is protected—as the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has said several times today, we are talking about providing a safe space for public good so it is incredibly important to get this right—and thinking through issues of regulation, standards, data security and identity verification; establishing how to ensure the widest possible contribution of data from pension providers, bearing in mind that effectiveness will be linked to how much information individuals can see in one place, while also taking account of the potential impact on industry; determining the indicative costs of potential models and how they might be funded sustainably; and setting out a pathway for delivery with provisional milestones and recommendations around communications and publicity.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this has been a good debate. I emphasise that we support the amendment, which is no surprise given that I put my name to it. I am sorry that we pre-empted someone: I am happy to step back.

This is a very elegant formulation, which stops a whole list being produced. It instinctively recognises that people might be vulnerable for reasons to do with their circumstances but that this is not necessarily something endemic to them. There are fluctuating circumstances which particularly fit that description: in our short debate we have had discussion of learning disabilities, mental capacity and addictions. A broader issue, but still within the key definition of vulnerability, is isolation. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, made a very telling point on that. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—I keep calling him my noble friend; we have debated too often over the years—spoke about the impact of vulnerability because of destitution. We should recognise that people may be perfectly fit and able-bodied and have all their mental capacity but if they are broke and have no money then they are potentially vulnerable or in vulnerable circumstances.

The formulation is powerful and succinct and we support it. I hope the Minister will find some way of incorporating it into the Bill—even if not in the precise wording, although it seems excellent to me—so that we can support it.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extremely helpful debate. A number of issues have been raised about the scope of the term “vulnerability”. This is incredibly helpful to us and to our overall approach to the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made reference to his hope that the report of our debate in Hansard will be seen and our words read by those who are charged with taking forward the delivery of this body. I assure the noble Lord that, thus far, everyone I have spoken to who is involved in this world, in the three current bodies, is very aware of our debates and I trust that they will be taking on board what is said.

Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Coussins and Lady Hollins, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, would add an element to the body’s strategic function, so it could include issues of access to financial services for vulnerable people in the national strategy. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for being a bit repetitive, following my noble friend’s remarks in previous debates, but it is important to have this on the record. As I mentioned in Committee, the Government take the issue of financial exclusion very seriously. As my noble friend Lord Young mentioned earlier, the Government are grateful for the important work of the Financial Exclusion Select Committee in highlighting this important issue and will aim to publish their response to the committee’s wide-reaching report ahead of Third Reading.

The Government’s response will address all the committee’s recommendations and bring forward new proposals on how to better co-ordinate across government, regulators and the wider sector to tackle the significant issue of financial exclusion. I see that my honourable friend from another place, Guy Opperman, the Minister for Financial Inclusion at the Department for Work and Pensions, is here. We have been working extremely closely on this Bill and on developing our response to the report.

My noble friend Lord Young earlier highlighted the difference between financial inclusion and capability and the Government’s intention that this body will be designed to build financial capability among the public. The Government have therefore deliberately omitted from the Bill references to financial inclusion and individuals’ access to financial services. An appropriate supply to people of useful and affordable financial services and products is very important, and the Government therefore work closely with the industry regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority, to ensure that appropriate action is taken when the market fails to supply services and products. The amendment would greatly expand the body’s statutory remit and we fear it is likely to create confusion over the roles of Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Financial Conduct Authority, both of which have the relevant responsibilities and powers to influence the supply of financial services products.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 48. Clause 5 says:

“The Secretary of State may issue guidance and give directions to the single financial guidance body about the exercise of its functions … The Secretary of State must publish any directions that are given to the single financial guidance body … The single financial guidance body must have regard to guidance, and comply with directions, given to it by the Secretary of State”.


Amendment 48, which is where we started, requires the Secretary of State to publish any guidance issued as well as directions. This guidance is, as we have heard, not discretionary, and the SFGB must have regard to it. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, however, in its first report of the 2017-19 Session, takes the view that a parliamentary scrutiny process should apply to these provisions. It considers the negative procedure an appropriate level of scrutiny, hence Amendment 47A; that is what the amendment requires. Obviously, such a procedure would appear to encompass the guidance being published in any event. I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for tabling these amendments to Clause 5, which provides for the Secretary of State to issue guidance and directions to the single financial guidance body about the exercise of its functions. It requires the body to comply with any directions and have regard to any guidance, and requires the Secretary of State to publish any directions.

Amendment 47A would require any guidance to be made by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament. Amendment 48 would place an obligation on the Secretary of State to publish any guidance.

Clause 5 facilitates a sensible working relationship between the body and the sponsoring Minister. It allows the body flexibility and independence in managing its business but balances this with a recognition of Ministers’ responsibilities to Parliament. Conferring functions on an arm’s-length body involves recognition that operational independence from Ministers in carrying out those functions is appropriate. Nevertheless, the sponsoring Minister remains answerable to Parliament for the activities of the body, including any failures.

I believe we are in agreement that creating the body is the right thing to do. I also agree with the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, at Second Reading that it is important that we learn from the experiences with the Money Advice Service about what worked and what did not work successfully. One issue highlighted by the independent Farnish review of the MAS in 2015 was that the MAS’s formal accountability regime needed to be strengthened. The review concluded that it was not possible for any party, including the FCA and HM Treasury, to hold the MAS fully to account, either for the way it discharged its role or for the money it spent.

In setting up the single financial guidance body, it is therefore important that a balance is struck between enabling the sponsoring Minister to fulfil his responsibilities and giving the body the desired degree of independence. An arm’s-length body needs to have a degree of autonomy in order to deliver effectively but it also needs to have a good and constructive relationship with its sponsoring department. Arm’s-length bodies represent an extension of the department’s delivery, so it is important that we think about a department and its arm’s-length bodies as a total delivery system. Building trust between the department and the new body—this is critical to the point—will be essential in enabling the right balance to be struck between the body’s autonomy and the Government’s accountability.

In drafting Clause 5, and the Bill more widely, we have sought to provide a legislative framework that allows the body flexibility and independence to make the most of expertise and innovation in managing its business, and to balance that within the context of it being a public body. The single financial guidance body will be a non-departmental public body, responsible for supporting the delivery of government policy.

Clause 5 provides for the Secretary of State to give guidance to the body and requires it to have regard to that guidance in exercising its functions. Amendment 47A would require regulations to be made by statutory instrument, subject to annulment, in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament. I consider that this would represent a degree of scrutiny unwarranted by the non-binding nature of the guidance in question.

Guidance provided by the Secretary of State to the arm’s-length body could cover myriad topics. Guidance could also be sought by the body; it is not necessarily just given. The relationship between an arm’s-length body and its sponsoring Minister and department is critical to the successful delivery of its functions. As in all professional relationships, whether between a sponsoring Minister and an arm’s-length body or a board and its executive team, being able to seek and give guidance in a straightforward and candid way will be important.

Having regard to guidance does not mean that the body must act on that guidance. For example, in commissioning or contracting services, the single financial guidance body may seek guidance concerning government procurement rules or the interpretation of those rules. Guidance may also be given or sought by the body to inform business planning. For example, where government develops a new policy that could affect the services it provides, the body will need guidance to enable it to prepare for potential change. Noble Lords will recall that the Pension Wise guidance service went live at the same time as the pension freedoms were introduced. This required considerable advance planning and service design.

In all those circumstances, it would be disproportionate to expect a statutory instrument to be drafted and for Parliament to scrutinise it. Also, the Secretary of State publishing guidance would not be consistent with the informal nature of much of the guidance that may be given. It would inhibit the critical relationship between the sponsoring Minister and the body supporting the delivery of government policy, and it could deter the body from seeking guidance, or the Minister giving guidance when it would be more sensible to do so. Further, a requirement to publish a guidance could lead to a position where the body feels obliged to respond publicly should it not act on the guidance, or feels under undue pressure to follow the guidance provided regardless whether it makes sense or is appropriate in the circumstances.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

We are less than happy with the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, will know that my noble friend Lady Drake and I looked at the issue of the secondary annuity market some while ago, and we paid her a visit in Caxton House when she had another role. At the time, our conclusion was that there is a lot of hassle, expense and complexity in the prospect of selling annuities into a secondary market and there simply have to be other priorities at the current time. If we were to proceed with it, there would need to be full legislation, properly debated. We understand that, in other respects, there is room for legislation in due course that could be applied to the secondary annuity market.

To illustrate some of the complexity, the players in the secondary market would need to include: individual annuity holders; beneficiaries and dependants; purchasers of rights of an annuity under a specific regulated activity; further regulated activities or providers buying back annuities; regulated intermediaries; EFAs providing mandatory, regulated advice; and authorised entities to check that annuity holders have received financial advice, to name but a few. This is a very complex area and we should let it rest where the Government have recently decided it should be. There are complexities and costs. The big risk is an asymmetry of understanding of how the market would work. Other complex issues are pension sharing on divorce and the impact of these arrangements on people in receipt of benefits and social care. It is a minefield: the Government have looked at it, we have looked at it, we are not happy and it should not be resurrected at this time. There have to be greater priorities in the pensions field.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Altmann has moved Amendment 69, which intends to retain the section of the Bank of England and Financial Services Act 2016 which amended FiSMA to allow Pension Wise to offer guidance to consumers wishing to make changes to the payment of their annuity. Pension Wise was set up with the very specific remit of delivering guidance to help people make decisions on their options following the introduction of the pension freedoms. The Pension Wise remit was subsequently extended to include guidance to people who needed help in considering selling their annuity. This would have supported the Government’s proposals at the time to extend the pension freedoms to those who have already purchased an annuity. The Government decided in October 2016 not to proceed with this proposal because of concerns around consumer detriment.

The new body the Government propose to create in this Bill will inherit the guidance guarantee that Pension Wise provided but will also be able to help with guidance on any pension matters. Therefore, this amendment is not needed. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie; we entirely agree with the Opposition’s view of these proposals, which would allow those who have already purchased an annuity to sell the income they receive for a lump sum. Following extensive engagement with industry, consumer groups and financial regulators, the Government decided they would not continue with these proposals. Indeed, through discussions with stakeholders it had become clear that, while many annuity providers were willing to allow customers to sell their annuities, it is likely that there would be insufficient buyers to create a competitive market.

In September 2016, Money Observer reported a survey of 10 annuity providers, in which only one firm said it would purchase annuities issued by others and six ruled themselves out. This corresponded with government findings of a lack of interest from potential purchasers of annuities. This could have led to consumers receiving poor value for their annuity income streams and suffering higher costs in the sales process. The Government estimated that only 5% of annuity holders would have opted to sell their annuity and, although some people have been disappointed, consumer protection is a top priority for the Government. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, priorities have to be thought through and this was not considered a key priority. Although some people have been disappointed, it would not be acceptable to allow a market to develop that could produce poor outcomes for consumers. I therefore encourage my noble friend Lady Altmann to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Buscombe]

The noble Lord’s amendment seeks to add safeguards to the winding-up provision by mandating the Secretary of State to undertake procedures set out in Section 11 of the Public Bodies Act before the wind-up can take effect. The power in the clause would mean that the draft regulations would be subject to the affirmative procedure where both Houses of Parliament would have to approve a Motion before the regulations could take effect.

Further, as I have indicated, I can see no reason why—should it ever be necessary—the Government would not consult prior to taking any action to dissolve the body. This would be contrary to the open and transparent culture that we are all committed to. However, as I noted earlier, I have some sympathy with the noble Lord’s intentions on consultation and, in the light of the committee’s comments on this clause, as well as the debate, I will consider further whether there is anything more that we can do to meet any concerns that have been raised. I therefore urge the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that. It was a long time coming but we must be grateful for small mercies.

This is an important point and very valid matters were pressed on the Minister, which I hope will help the Government to take this issue back and think again. It seems to me that a proper process is necessary here. As we have argued and as has been argued today, the affirmative process is not sufficient. We know that we cannot vote against it or vote to amend it. The noble Baroness said that it would be accompanied by a consultation. That is fine and we can put that on the record but, as I understand it, it is not mandatory under the processes. There are very important issues here, which the Delegated Powers Committee focused on, concerning a complete lack of knowledge about to whom transfers might be made. Also, important issues of conflict of interest lie at the heart of what the Bill is trying to achieve.

However, I shall quit while I am ahead. I am grateful to the Minister for taking this matter back and I hope that we will revisit it in a positive frame in due course.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we support the thrust of the amendment, but there is just a query on its precise ramifications which perhaps I may raise now. The amendment states:

“As part of its pensions guidance function, the single financial guidance body must provide information and guidance regarding unsolicited communications and make provision to ensure that members of the public receive this information and guidance before taking any action following an unsolicited communication”.


I am not quite sure how that could be caused to happen; that is, where the knowledge of an unsolicited communication is and how that feeds through to encourage people not to take any action until they have considered these matters. When the Minister winds up, she might expand a little on that.

I certainly support what the amendment is trying to achieve. The idea of taking a power in the Bill to seek to move forward more quickly once it has left this House is certainly worth considering. But I guess that my key message is to the Government. Their response to the consultation document was robust and covered not only cold calling, but we have this equivocation as to when it is going to happen. I find it difficult to understand, given everything that is going on with Brexit, which is changing the world, why we cannot move swiftly to introduce provisions in a vital area where there is clear consumer detriment that is destroying many people’s lives. It would be helpful to have that clarification in the wind-up, and subject to that we support the amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

Perhaps I may give an indication of my support in principle for banning cold calling of every type by saying that I have given up my landline because so many calls now are nuisance calls. They are about pensions and all sorts of other things. Apparently I have more accidents in my car than hot lunches. We have all had enough of it and this is an issue which is close to the hearts of many, if not all, noble Lords.

These amendments seek, under the pensions guidance function, to give the single financial guidance body a duty to provide information and guidance to members of the public about unsolicited communications. I should like to start by thanking my noble friend and all noble Lords for their contributions to this topic at Second Reading and during the first day of Committee. I really do understand that pension scams, and particularly unsolicited communications, have to be dealt with. As I have sought to reassure noble Lords, the Government also take the threat of pension scams extremely seriously and have committed to taking action to tackle the issue. Noble Lords have already made reference to the fact that last month the Government published their response to the consultation on pension scams, and in that document the Government underlined their commitment to bring forward a package of measures designed to tackle such scams.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government intend to introduce legislation in a finance Bill later this year to tighten the rules in order to stop scammers opening fraudulent pension schemes. Tougher measures to prevent the transfer of money from an occupational pension scheme into a fraudulent one will be introduced following the rollout of the master trust authorisation regime in 2018-19. The Pensions Regulator will be given new supervisory measures to authorise and deauthorise master trusts according to strict governance standards, and the Government will consider how the legislation to limit transfers should align with these measures.

On pensions cold calling, which is the subject of my noble friend’s amendment, the Government’s consultation response committed to bringing forward legislation when parliamentary time allows. I really would like to reassure noble Lords that work is under way to ensure that the ban, which will include emails and text messages, is robust. We will continue to work with stakeholders and those with an interest in this space as work progresses. We hope to be able to outline more about our plans for engagement on Report. I say that, but I also ought to make it clear that, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, has said, while we would love to do this overnight, the truth is that this is not in the scope of the Bill. I wish noble Lords could be flies on the wall at some of the meetings I have had with officials from the DWP and the Treasury, and also with ministerial colleagues including the Pensions Minister. We have been searching every which way to find an opportunity to introduce this legislation. We will not be overcome. We are determined to do it as soon as is practically possible. Indeed, it was not until I became a Minister that I realised how hard it is. It is easier for me now to understand, even after nearly 20 years in your Lordships’ House, how difficult it is to get some of these things done in practice.

I hope my strength of feeling is coming across: we are genuinely working on this as we speak. We are not dragging our heels. There is no lack of willingness. We are absolutely clear that we want to take this forward, but at the same time we need to be really careful about how the legislation is drafted—for example, by being careful not to exclude legitimate transactions and so on. I have the result of the consultation in front of me, which sets out in some detail the reasons why we have to be a little bit careful about how this is drafted, but I assure noble Lords that if it was in scope it would be in this Bill. Unfortunately, it is not in scope and we have been given clear instructions on that by all the powers that be who advise us on drafting of legislation in Parliament.

I turn to the amendment tabled by noble Lords on the pensions guidance function. This function allows for the body to provide information and guidance on matters relating to occupational and personal pensions. The noble Lords’ amendment would see the single financial guidance body given a duty to provide information and guidance on pensions cold calling and a duty to ensure that members of the public receive this information and guidance before taking any action following a cold call.

I will take each part of the amendment in turn and will first talk to the duty to provide information and guidance on pensions cold calling. As my noble friend and all noble Lords will be aware, information on spotting, avoiding and dealing with scams is currently provided by the Money Advice Service, TPAS and Pension Wise. Information on pensions scams is also available via the Financial Conduct Authority’s and the Pensions Regulator’s websites. This function allows for the body to provide information and guidance on matters relating to occupational and personal pensions, but the amendment would give the single financial guidance body a duty to provide information and guidance on pensions cold calling and a duty to ensure that members of the public receive this information and guidance before taking any action following a cold call.

Under the new body’s money guidance function, which will allow the body to provide information and guidance to enhance people’s financial capability, the Government would expect the body to continue to provide information of this sort. However, the Government believe that the new body will be best placed to determine exactly what information and guidance it provides. It will have the ability to assess the landscape and see what information and guidance is already out there. I agree that information on avoiding financial scams is vital, and, as I have already said, the Government expect that the body will continue the existing services’ good work in this area, but I do not agree that it is necessary to specify this in legislation.

On the second part of Amendment 42D, which states that the body should,

“make provision to ensure that members of the public receive this information and guidance”,

after receiving a cold call, I wholeheartedly agree that members of the public should know where they can go to seek information and guidance if they need it. Of course, the Government would expect that any information or guidance that the body provides is as accessible as possible. However, the amendment would not help to achieve this. In practice, it is not possible or reasonable for the body to be required to ensure—the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has said it is quite difficult—that people will come to it for help after receiving a cold call. Having said that, I heard an example of this when I was at TPAS. It was absolutely brilliant. It had all been recorded, of course, so one could hear this woman say, “I think I’ve just had a cold call”. Sure enough, this brilliant adviser—the person giving guidance—said, “I’m very sorry to say this sounds very much like a cold call that you should ignore. Well done for calling us, thank you so much”. This is happening daily, as I saw for myself. The body would not know who had received a cold call unless, of course, they went to the service. Even if the industry had access to this information, the body would not have the power to require the industry to ensure that members of the public received information before taking action.

I understand what noble Lords are seeking to achieve with this amendment. However, it would not be helpful to mandate the guidance that the body provides, particularly when there is already a clear expectation that the body should provide it, or to make the body responsible for ensuring that people seek out this guidance. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for tabling these amendments. Amendment 26 relates to the strategic function of the body and would add a requirement for the new body to conduct research on levels of unmanageable debt across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the causes of unmanageable debt and ways to prevent it. Amendment 40 then seeks to provide a definition of unmanageable debt. It is right that this House takes great interest in seeking to understand the causes of debt and how the Government can best help those who are struggling. I thank noble Lords again for their important contributions on this matter at Second Reading, in the meetings we have conducted since and in their amendments. I have given them a great deal of thought. I assure noble Lords that the Government take problem debt very seriously.

We understand, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has said, that the cost of living can sometimes become too great and that problem debt can be hard to escape and can compound family breakdown, worklessness, stress and mental health issues. The Government are committed to supporting those who are struggling with their finances and, as we have previously outlined, work is ongoing on this area. Indeed, during the Recess I paid a visit to the Money Advice Service to see for myself some of the work that it is doing in this regard, particularly the different areas of research it is carrying out. I also take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that Citizens Advice is doing in this area, and particularly the report they published last week, Stuck in Debt, which highlights the problems faced by many. The report highlights the risk of people taking on debt that they cannot repay and clearly shows the impact of unaffordable debt.

The strategic function of the single financial guidance body will be critical. It will give the new body the ability to work with others in the financial services industry, the devolved authorities and the public and voluntary sectors to identify the most pressing issues and possible interventions in financial capability, personal debt management and financial education for children and young people. I understand the very worthwhile aims of this amendment; however we do not believe that it is necessary to specifically reference one area of research in legislation. Clause 2(3) enables the body to conduct research on,

“anything that is conducive or incidental to the exercise of its functions”,

so it could conduct research into anything that noble Lords have raised this afternoon, for example. Furthermore, the body will, under its strategic function, be expected to work with stakeholders across the financial services industry, the devolved Administrations and the public and voluntary sectors to share and pool research evidence and knowledge among each other to inform the national strategy on financial capability.

Let us not forget that the whole purpose of this new body is to improve the financial capability of the public, through both its delivery and strategic functions. In order to deliver its objectives and functions effectively, this body, like any other delivery organisation, will need to conduct research to understand the issues it is addressing, test and learn new approaches to determine what works and continuously improve the services it is providing. I would find it hard to believe that this body would not conduct research on the very issues that the noble Lord has raised. The question here is not whether the body should conduct research on this and other matters—the Government are clear that, of course, it should. The question is, is it necessary to have it defined in primary legislation?

There are several topics that the body may wish to look into, but I am concerned that specifying just one could risk limiting its ability to look widely and strategically at issues across the whole sector. It must also have regard to emerging issues in the future. Amendment 40 seeks to provide a definition of the unmanageable debt levels that the body would be tasked with researching under Amendment 26. The noble Lord’s amendment undoubtedly highlights some of the key characteristics displayed by those who are struggling with their finances, such as being able to make only minimum repayments on outstanding credit commitments, difficulty in paying for essentials and a reliance on credit. The question here is not whether the Government agree with this definition; it is about whether this should be defined in legislation. As I have already explained, the Government believe that the new body should have the ability to choose the specific topics it researches in relation to its functions, and that these should not be specified in legislation.

Should the new body choose to research the causes and effect of unmanageable debt, it should also have the ability to define what it is researching. Although I understand the intention behind the definition suggested in the noble Lord’s amendment, defining unmanageable debt in legislation could unintentionally limit the scope of the body’s research. It is envisaged that the body will continue to support the aim of reducing problem debt, and this is clear in Clause 2(7)(b), which states that part of the strategic function is to improve,

“the ability of members of the public to manage debt”.

As I have said, the Money Advice Service and others already conduct significant amounts of research into the causes of overindebtedness. They are doing a great deal of work at the moment on how to support the aim of reducing problem debt in the first place. Indeed, I had an extensive discussion about how to do this in a much more strategic way; I think it was the chair of MAS who said that if someone falls off their horse, it is not just a case of looking at how they get back on it; it is how they learn to ride. It is about people’s whole approach, from an early age, to managing their finances. We envisage that the fantastic work the organisation is carrying out in research will be transferred and will extend and continue through to the new body, so I cannot quite accept the premise of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, that if the money is not spent on research, how is the budget assessed. If that were the case, it would go to the core issue of whether the body is functioning: a crucial part of its function is to ensure that the body is looking at and thinking about how to improve people’s ability to manage their finances through life.

I know that a particular focus of research at the moment is to do with people’s attitudes; not just how they manage their debt in the short term, but their whole attitude to money and how they manage it going forward. I have various pamphlets here and I found it incredibly encouraging to learn about what we are doing for young children, going through to the elderly. Of course, as always there is lots more to do but the whole tenor of my response is that we should not restrain or constrain this body by tying it down, by listing or being too prescriptive in primary legislation. I hope that, after considering the points I have raised, the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that sympathetic reply and for the detail contained in it. The thing I am struggling to understand is why, simply because the Government have particularised an approach in the Bill, that precludes any other approach to research or indeed any other type of debt to be the subject of that research. But this is probably not the time to pursue that in great detail. I simply do not see why the amendment cannot be accepted without impairing the argument the Minister has made for how she sees research and the importance of it. Unless she wants to say anything more, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I accept what the noble Lord says but I am also saying that what is necessary is already either in the Bill or, as I explained, in the requirements reflected in Her Majesty’s Treasury guidance which apply to all arm’s-length bodies across government. As for other DWP sponsor bodies, those requirements will be written into the framework document that will be developed in the run-up to launch and agreed with the CEO of the body. It will be reviewed regularly thereafter and published by the body.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I thank the Minister for that reply and all other noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for her support—in particular for the concept that this is a chance to embed in the culture of the new entity good practices around consultation and proper planning. I think that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, also supported the broad thrust of what the amendment is trying to do. Ultimately, we are trying to get on to the record some clarity about the process. That was a key objective in tabling the amendment in this form.

The Minister said that the Bill is a high-level framework document and although I thank her for putting on to the record some comforting remarks about the things we were pursuing, I am still at a loss to understand the scale or scope of the new body and whether, on day one, it will look like an aggregation of the three existing operations. Will it be half that size or twice that size? We have no sense of that from this debate and it is a germane issue. As she says, this is a very high-level framework Bill and our one chance to address it in this House will come over the next few months, and then it will be gone. There are no parliamentary processes genuinely attached to the processes that the Minister outlined. I do not know whether any more could be said on that, but the other part of moving this amendment was to see what the concept was.

Again, is it expected that the new body will have to operate within the levy base at the moment, or will it be constrained in any way? Can the Minister give us some sense of what the new body will look like in terms of scale?

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[Baroness Buscombe]

I again thank the noble Lord for these amendments. It is helpful to have on the record a little more detail about how the three bodies will transfer into one. It is important to emphasise that we cannot predict exactly what the new body will look like, and it would be wrong to try to do so. Initially we will bring the three bodies together but, over time, the three will evolve into one. It is important to protect current services during transition. We do not want to pin down, constrain or compromise the CEO and his board in their ability to produce the most effective single body out of these three bodies. Therefore, we must trust in them to some degree, although there has to be a lot of consultation during the process to produce something that will be much more efficient and, we hope, practical, particularly for the consumer, than what we have at the moment.

It is hoped that we will have sufficient finances to cover the transfer. The money currently held in reserves when MAS closes down, and the SFGB, could be used for some of the set-up costs if that is necessary. At the point of transfer, the reserves will be transferred to the new body and should be used up in year. The new body will be a non-departmental public body of central government and will not hold reserves. It is impossible to predict exactly how large the funds will be, but that is something that the board and the department will stay in touch with as the transition takes place.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I thank the Minister for that further explanation—I think we are almost there. Only that big question remains unanswered.

Regarding the appointment of the chair and the chief executive, will they go before the Select Committee in the other place?

[Baroness Buscombe]

That is a good question. I do not have the answer, so I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful for that. I think we have taken this as far as we can go this afternoon. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, it may come as no surprise that we on the Front Bench support my noble friend Lady Drake, for all the reasons that she and others mentioned this evening. Certainly, if advice was not free at the point of use, it would undermine the function and could create conflicts of interest, as my noble friend said. Issues around independence and impartiality are absolutely crucial. I am delighted to hear that HMRC had to cough up for a fridge—it is not a usual occurrence and I congratulate my noble friend on engineering that.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, that we entirely agree with the point about the self-employed. We have tabled an amendment on that later in the Bill and I hope that we will be able to make common cause on that as well.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for putting their names to the amendments in this group. They seek to amend the existing functions and objectives in the Bill to ensure that the body’s services are free at the point of use, that the guidance, information and advice provided is independent and impartial, and that the body provides its services broadly rather than focusing support in areas where provision is lacking.

Amendment 6, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Stevenson, specifies that any information, guidance or advice delivered by the new body or its delivery partners must be free. I note that this point was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, as well. The Government absolutely agree that any help funded by the new body should be free at the point of use. The Government’s intention is to ensure that information and guidance are available to those who need it. We would not wish to prevent members of the public accessing help on the grounds of cost.

Pension Wise, the Pensions Advisory Service and the Money Advice Service currently offer free-to-client help and, as the Government noted in their consultation, the new body will do the same. Indeed, by bringing together pensions guidance, money guidance and debt advice in one organisation, the Government expect that savings will be made. As a result, we expect a greater proportion of levy funding to be made available for the delivery of front-line services to members of the public. I am grateful for the opportunity to address noble Lords’ concerns and will observe that Clause 5 confers on the Secretary of State powers of guidance and direction that may be used to prevent the new body entering into arrangements with fee-charging providers in the unlikely event that it should wish to do so.

Amendment 29, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, would alter the wording of the Bill to remove the requirement for the body to focus its support for the provision of information, advice and guidance on areas where it is lacking. I understand the concerns that the noble Baroness raised, and it is right to make the point that the new body’s responsibilities and functions are not relinquished simply because provision of some kind is already delivered by a third party. That is a very important point to stress. However, with respect, I do not think that the amendment is required in this instance.

It is important that the new body uses the funds it receives in a cost-effective way, thereby achieving maximum impact for members of the public. The current wording of the Bill aims to achieve this by ensuring that the body targets its activities towards those areas where information, advice and guidance are lacking. It would be helpful to explain what we mean by “lacking”. For example, provision may said to be lacking where it is not of the right quality, lacks impartiality—or, indeed, where it is absent altogether. As such, the Bill’s current wording ensures that the body carries out its functions in the most effective way possible, delivering value for money from public funding and avoiding unnecessary duplication.

As noble Lords will be aware, duplication of services with other providers was a key criticism of the Money Advice Service, both from the Treasury Select Committee and from Christine Farnish’s independent review. The Government are keen to ensure that the new body avoids this issue and have drafted legislation to reflect this. However, the proposed amendment could increase the likelihood of the new body duplicating existing and already adequate provision rather than complementing it, thereby compromising its ability to deliver value for money. Not focusing its activities on areas where support is lacking would increase the risk of leaving gaps in provision, to the detriment of members of the public.

Amendments 28, 30 and 32, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, would alter the wording of the Bill to include a requirement for the information, guidance and advice delivered by the body to be independent and impartial. The Government agree with the intent behind the amendments. Of course, it is important that information and guidance provided by the body is both impartial and independent from commercial interests. Members of the public must be confident that information and guidance provided by the body or on its behalf is trustworthy and accurate, and that it is not designed to sell particular financial services products—a point stressed by the noble Baroness.

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[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I understand entirely and accept what the noble Baroness is saying. Indeed I understand that that is the purpose of all noble Lords who have spoken this evening. However, I take issue with the idea that there is no legislative opportunity over the next two years. The Government have made it very clear that we will not be confining ourselves to Bills relating to our departure from the European Union. There will be other opportunities to legislate in these important areas, but we want to make sure that when we do it, we get it right. It is important that I address—

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Can the noble Baroness particularise for us the Bills mentioned in the Queen’s Speech for the next two years that might be used to this effect?

[Baroness Buscombe]

No, I cannot do that at the moment and I think it is unfair to ask me to set out the Bills that could be used at this time. What I am saying, though, is that noble Lords should not presume that there are no other opportunities to bring forward legislation over the next two-year period, other than those relating to the departure from the European Union—

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, briefly, I support my noble friend Lady Drake and the powerful case she has made for the public service dashboard. I will also speak to the proposal that pension guidance functions should include the state pension.

Decisions around receipt of the state pension are not necessarily a straightforward matter. As we know only too well, there has been some confusion over the age at which some—particularly women—reach state pension age and are entitled to access their pension. Reaching state pension age does not of course necessitate giving up employment. Deferring the state pension can generate a higher rate of pension and therefore possibly tax, albeit no longer with a lump sum. But deferral will not earn an income uplift in weeks where certain benefits might be in payment, for example for carer’s allowance. The deferral increase is not inheritable. There are transitional rules for those reaching state pension age before 6 April 2016. As entitlement depends on a person’s national insurance record, paid or credited, there may be decisions about the appropriateness of buying extra years. These are just some of the intricacies surrounding the state pension.

It is accepted that the Pension Service will provide details, including forecasts of entitlement, but should these matters not be considered in the round, particularly with the person’s broader retirement planning? After all, for many people the state pension will constitute their biggest single risk-free income source for the rest of their lives. In their response to the final SFGB consultation, on page 10, the Government stated:

“the government believes people would benefit from access to joined up information and guidance to help them develop the financial capability they need”.

Surely an understanding of what might flow from the state pension system is as important as an understanding of choices around pension pots. Indeed, given the recognition that the service should be directed at those most in need, are they not likely to be those for whom the state pension represents a significant part of their income?

My noble friend Lady Drake made, as ever, a powerful case for the pensions dashboard, and in collecting together details of all of a person’s pension pots it is important that it should include the state pension. To be clear, we do not argue for SFGB to replace the Pension Service but for it to be able to feed its choices into how it might fit together with other pension opportunities.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate about the pensions guidance function. I shall begin by focusing my response on the questions around the state pension and shall then move on to the dashboard.

On Amendment 9, the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised a question about information and guidance in relation to the state pension. It is, of course, vital that people have access to information about their state pension. Noble Lords will be aware that the Department for Work and Pensions is responsible for the policy and administration of the state pension. DWP offers a range of information and guidance through a variety of contact channels for people wanting to know about their state pension. The GOV.UK website is a key source of that information and guidance. It includes links which take people to the online services. For those who prefer to access information offline, DWP also provides leaflets, letters and other guidance on the state pension. All these forms of communication contain telephone numbers and the addresses of pension centres.

People seeking information about their state pension age or wanting a forecast of their state pension are able to contact DWP via telephone, textphone or email or, alternatively, they can write if they prefer. DWP also offers a digital service called “Check your State Pension” where customers can check a version of their state pension statement. Customers using this service can ask questions or raise queries by completing an online form. However, as with the current services, it is not appropriate for the body to become involved in specific issues relating to the detail or the handling by DWP of an individual’s state pension entitlement, for example, where a person has not received their state pension. These are matters that only DWP can properly respond to. As it has access to national insurance contribution records, DWP is the right organisation to deal with state pension-related questions, information and guidance. It would be inappropriate to expect pension schemes or the financial services sector to fund guidance on the state pension.

The single financial guidance body will be able to provide general guidance on the state pension in the same way as the existing services do now, for example, as general information on its website or as part of discussions with people. It will also direct people to the correct part of the GOV.UK website or provide the relevant telephone number or leaflet if a state pension query is raised during a face-to-face discussion, call or web chat or online inquiry. We expect the single financial guidance body to look for opportunities for a more seamless customer journey in the future as part of its programme of transformation across all its delivery functions.

I hope that I have clarified, in relation to state pensions, what the single financial guidance body can do and also the extensive service the DWP already provides to the public. Of course one of the key issues is the huge challenge which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, referred to with reference to dashboards, and the same applies to the state pension in detail. The priority has to be around consumer protection safeguards, as she quite rightly said.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I think we are in agreement on where the Government are on this issue. However, I would like to clarify one point. Can she say whether any of the money guidance functions listed in the amendment are now off the table?

[Baroness Buscombe]

At this time of night I want to be absolutely clear that I give the right answer, in which case I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we would support a proposition which broadens as widely as possible the provision of financial education, but the issue that arises is how it will be delivered. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who was the leading voice on the committee in favour of financial education and led the charge on it, that if he is around September he will see that we have tabled a couple of amendments which deal specifically with two of the recommendations in the report about making it part of the curriculum in the primary sector, because we are behind the devolved Administrations in that regard. Latching on to the Ofsted framework is a means of getting some leverage, but, even with that, we know that it will be a challenging task. However, it is hugely important.

The data show that by getting to young people at school you can embed those ideas early, and they stick. Of course, a framework is there within which it can be delivered. Notwithstanding that it has been a requirement of the secondary sector for a number of years, as the noble Viscount said, we know of its patchy delivery—and there are clearly funding issues. I have pre-empted a little the amendment which we will come back to in September. We will perhaps pick up this important issue again then. Certainly, making sure that such education is available to the most vulnerable is important, and we support it.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, Amendments 16A, 17, and 18, tabled respectively by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, my noble friend Lady Altmann, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, would alter the strategic function on matters relating to financial education. However, I thank all of them for highlighting the important issue of financial education. While I appreciate the points that they make, the amendments as drafted simply do not work and are not appropriate.

Financial education is a specific area under the body’s strategic function targeted specifically at children and people of a young age to ensure that they are supported at an early stage on how to manage their finances—for example, by learning the benefits of budgeting and saving. I entirely agree with what the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, said in this regard. It is crucial to “capture them young”, as I think the expression goes. Perhaps it would be more useful if I set out more fully what is covered by the body’s strategic function and the financial education element within that.

Through its strategic function, the single financial guidance body will bring together interested partners in the financial services industry, the public and voluntary sectors, and the devolved Administrations with the aim of improving the ability of members of the public to manage their finances. To deliver that, the body will support and co-ordinate a strategy. The premise of the strategy is that one organisation working independently will have little chance of greatly impacting financial capability, but many working together will—a point referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. It is question of delivery. One body cannot deliver to all; it simply would not be practical for that one body to be in charge of every stage in life. The strategy should therefore be seen as a collective effort by multiple parties. The role of the new body will be to drive the process forward and oversee implementation.

More specifically, financial education is a subsection of that effort under Clause 2(7)(c). The SFGB will have a co-ordinating role to match funders and providers of financial education projects and initiatives aimed at children, and will ensure that they are targeted where evidence has shown them to be more effective. This falls within the wider strategic financial capability work of the body and should form part of a national strategy to enhance people’s financial capability. The Money Advice Service has been undertaking that role, which is one of the aspects that respondents to the Government’s consultations overwhelmingly agreed the new body should continue working on.

Amendment 16A would alter this function so that a strategy for the provision of financial education was extended to care leavers. I thank the noble Earl for raising this important issue. The Money Advice Service in its financial capability strategy recognises that more needs to be done to address care leavers’ financial needs and skills for independent living. The Government agree, and we expect the new body to consider further initiatives to support care leavers, but also other young people from marginalised backgrounds—for example, those leaving youth detention or with learning difficulties. The Government believe all these segments of the population are already covered in this section under the provision for young people. Specifying a provision for care leavers would create a specific requirement for the body and remove its discretion to target those most in need.

Amendment 17 would alter the wording of the Bill so that the strategy for the provision of financial education extended not to children and young people but to children and adults. Amendment 18 would make provision specifically for adults contemplating difficult financial decisions, such as mortgages, pensions and vehicle finance plans. As my noble friend Lady Altmann stressed, it is important that adults are informed and educated throughout their lives about how to manage their money well and avoid falling into problem debt. However, this is the role of the SFGB as a whole, as it delivers money and pensions guidance and debt advice. Also, the strategic function under Clause 2(7)(a) already gives the body a specific responsibility to work to improve the financial capability of adult members of the public, including in relation to the areas highlighted in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.

We believe that it is unwise to give the new body a requirement to advise the Secretary of State on explicit issues, as worthy as those issues are. There are several topics that the body may wish to look into as part of its strategic function. Choosing a few could risk limiting the body’s ability to look widely at the sector and have regard to emerging issues in future.

I want to make further reference to what the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, said this evening. I entirely support much of what he said on teaching basic skills in managing finances. I am aware that the Lords Select Committee on Financial Exclusion raised the primary school curriculum in its recent report on financial inclusion. The Government will address the committee’s recommendations on this issue when they publish their response in due course. I just add that the first recommendation made in that report proposed that we should have a Minister for financial exclusion. We preferred to refer to “inclusion”, and my honourable friend Guy Opperman MP is the first Minister for Pensions and Financial Inclusion. I have already been in discussions with him about how we can work with the Minister for Education in another place to take forward some of the recommendations in the report and discuss in further detail the concerns raised in it, particularly about primary school education. For those reasons, I hope noble Lords will accept that the amendments are not necessary. I urge the noble Earl to withdraw the amendment.

Pension Protection Fund and Pensions Regulator

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 13th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are determined to ensure that the entitlements of occupational pension scheme members are protected from the actions of unscrupulous employers. We published the Green Paper, Security and Sustainability in Defined Benefit Pension Schemes, in February this year, and consulted on changes to pension protection legislation, including those set out in the manifesto. I am pleased to tell noble Lords that the Department for Work and Pensions is today announcing plans to launch a White Paper on the future of defined benefit final salary pension schemes in the near future.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. We agree with the importance of sustaining confidence in the pension system, particularly DB schemes, and ensuring that the pension promises of employers are honoured. We look forward to seeing the White Paper in due course, whenever that might be. But, given the experience of U-turns on the triple lock and the lack of reference to the issue in the Queen’s Speech, we are entitled to check the status of what was promised to the electorate, especially as it is branded as a component of the strong and stable leadership and said to be protection from “irresponsible bosses”—not usual Tory language, but we know who they mean. Can the Minister confirm that it is government policy—which would have our support—to introduce for the Pensions Regulator a notification scheme for certain mergers and acquisitions; powers to block certain takeovers; punitive fines for those wilfully under-resourcing schemes; and powers to restrict dividends of irresponsible employers? Can she also say what changes the Government consider necessary to the powers of a pension protection fund?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, the Green Paper covered four key areas: funding and investment, employer contributions and affordability, member protection, and consolidation of schemes. It looked to examine and build on the discussion already taking place on what, if anything, should be done to ensure that the system remains sustainable while ensuring that members’ benefits are protected. It is really important to say that issues such as powers to block certain mergers and acquisitions should be thought through extremely carefully, not least because we want to ensure that any changes to the powers of the regulator do not trigger unintended consequences and act as an impediment to business and growth.