Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Morrow Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise only briefly on this issue to concur with some of the comments that have been made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said, there is always some hesitation on the part of those who were not there to revisit some of these issues. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, made a point about those who compromised and found that the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was not perfect. Perfection can often be the enemy of any progress at all, so I have enormous admiration for those who were able to compromise to reach what has been a long-standing and impressive agreement. Along with others who have spoken, I put on record my tributes to those who were mentioned.

I saw the Minister wince slightly when the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, talked about how much more confidence he has that there may be some progress on various issues now that the Minister is there. My only comment is: no pressure there then. I could tell him not to worry about it, because this is an issue where people want to and can find agreement, and there is always good will in the discussions. I remember, during direct rule, when I took over from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he was nothing but courteous and helpful to me when I was making my way as a Minister in Northern Ireland.

We are very supportive of what the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, are trying to achieve with these amendments. There is value to a more consensual approach to this, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, outlined, but I suspect the Minister will say that this discussion is for outside this Bill, because the Bill is to progress issues in the NDNA. Nevertheless, I think there is an opportunity for the Minister to reflect on the comments that have been made. Even if they are not for this Bill, there could and should be discussions on them to see if further progress can be made and if there are benefits to taking such an approach.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I am listening intently to this debate and I am beginning to wonder if I live in Northern Ireland at all or if I lived there during the making of the Belfast agreement. We have heard all the woes being poured on to the St Andrews agreement. That is unkind to say the least. If politics has been—and it is—sectarianised in Northern Ireland, it was the Belfast agreement that did that. The Belfast agreement said, “You must nominate as a unionist or a nationalist”. That did not come out of St Andrews; it was the brainchild of the Belfast agreement.

Furthermore, during the early stages of the Government and the Assembly in Northern Ireland, it was all stop-go. The Assembly was more in abeyance than it was working at that time. It has to be said—I am not sure that it gives me a lot of pleasure to say it—that during the time when Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness were First and Deputy First Ministers there was more cohesion within the Assembly and it had a longer duration of continued government. It was also Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness who had to stand together and condemn the shooting of a police officer by dissident republicans. Those of us who live there can well remember that. Those were extremely difficult times. If there ever was a time when government could have fallen apart, it was at that time, but it was due to the influence of Peter Robinson and the late Martin McGuinness that government continued, though not without difficulties.

I hasten to add that I do not think there will ever come a day when anyone, irrespective of what position they take, can stand confidently and say, “The Assembly is here for ever and a day.” I have said that often in public meetings. It is the type of animal that is going to be always trying and will come through its difficulties. But please do not say that all the problems emanate from the St Andrews agreement. That remark does not sit well at all.

There are those who want to blame some other exercise for the position that the Assembly finds itself in from time to time. Decommissioning has been mentioned. We, and those who wanted to listen, were told that the release of republican prisoners was never in the agreement. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was the closest to it when he said that he had conditioned it by saying that if that had to happen—I do not want to misquote him—then it was on the proviso that the weaponry that was used would be decommissioned and put away. Let me say this clearly: when decommissioning did not happen and the prisoners were released, we were told that that was never signed up to. Let us not paint a picture that was not real at that time. I know that, when you look back on these things with hindsight, you can think things through and say, “Well, we should have done this and we should have done that.” Maybe we are all in that position from time to time, but let us not paint it as if it was something different.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I think most people know that I am one of the parties, together with the noble Baroness opposite, who are pursuing these issues through the courts. Despite what has been said at first instance, I am quite confident that when we reach the end of this litigation we will be vindicated. However, that will take time.

At the same time, we hope that the Government, who have been in negotiation with the European Union for some time and I think are making some progress, will acknowledge that they have not yet made enough progress for us to be able to go back to normal life. Hopefully, this issue from 1924 or whenever it is will never arise, but if it does then the comments that the noble Lord opposite has made are very important. If, in a number of years’ time, we come to a vote on this issue where we are denied the procedures that we put in place in the Belfast agreement, that will not be acceptable. I say that very firmly and clearly.

What the Government have tried to do on this issue is not going to work. They cannot just try to slip this through and somehow hope that it will work out all right when the time comes. It was a bad mistake for them to eliminate cross-community voting on an issue that is of huge importance. In the agreement we were very conscious about making sure that all important issues would be decided by cross-community vote. To take that away from the people is not going to be acceptable. We have problems going on at the moment and I do not want to say anything to exacerbate them, but I will just say that the Government have got themselves into a hole. They should get out of that hole before it gets too big and overwhelms them.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I wish to make a few brief remarks about this issue. Those who have spoken before me—the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Trimble—have articulated the situation. I say to the Government that they need to demonstrate clearly that they have not fallen out with devolution, because their actions in recent times are getting the message over to Northern Ireland that they are rather weary of devolution or no longer believe in it.

There is a crisis coming. Those of us who sit here want to avert it if we possibly can, but the Government are the ones who can really avert it. They have created it—that has been put very straight to them by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble—and only they can ensure that this crisis does not hit us in the face. Let it be clearly said and understood here today: it is on its way. It is in the making. It is almost here.

I will not say anything more, but I urge the Government to take note in particular of what the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Trimble, have said. There is an issue, and if it is not sorted quickly then I believe it will go beyond sorting.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Morrow Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to that of the noble Baroness, who spoke so eloquently on this subject this afternoon, for one reason: throughout my professional life, I have come to value the core of Northern Ireland life through its business community. In many cases, those businesses were small. They are the heartbeat of the Northern Ireland community. Given the sensitivities of our situation both politically and economically—politically because of the sensitive nature of reaching the recent agreement, which we all welcome—and of our geographical position, having on our shore what is soon to become the border between the United Kingdom and the European Community, there is no better word than “sensitivity” to be adopted regarding the wording of the amendment.

During the lengthy debate in Committee, I coined the phrase “the reality of reassurance”. Behind what has already been said this afternoon, that remains the key reason why we make a strong plea to Her Majesty’s Government to take seriously not just the amendment’s wording and technicalities but the motive behind it: the reality of reassurance. No one can tell how this will develop once Brexit is a reality. The noble Baroness quoted the letter that came to us from right across the business community, which is united in making a plea for this reality of reassurance. At this stage, I simply say this: I realise the difficulties faced by the Minister and I accept the sincerity of his position, but I urge the Government to realise that there is a lot more to this amendment than simply technical phrases.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 8 to 11, which stand in my name and that of my noble friends Lord McCrea, Lord Hay and Lord Browne. These amendments and the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, are very similar. Indeed, some might say that they overlap slightly, but I think that is no bad thing because of the situation in which we find ourselves.

I speak as a unionist and a supporter of the leave cause. We are clear that the withdrawal agreement does not get Brexit done, but that is to be proved. It merely creates an opportunity to get it done for Great Britain, but not for the United Kingdom. The final agreement will determine whether it is done for Great Britain and the United Kingdom. I will be happy to be proved wrong on this occasion, but I suspect—I say it myself—I will not be proved wrong.

The withdrawal agreement leaves Northern Ireland behind in the single market and, despite the legal technicalities, inside the EU customs union. The vote to leave was a vote not of Great Britain but of the United Kingdom. It does not respect the referendum result. There was never any discussion about the difficulties of a land border. The European Union dismissed all solutions, and, shamefully, many used the implicit threat of republican violence to make it appear unsolvable. The result was not to solve the trade and customs issue but to move the problems from the UK-Irish border to inside the UK.

The EU can hardly now approve a series of alternative arrangements that it spent three years dismissing as unworkable and undeliverable without admitting it was disingenuous on the land border. The act of putting a regulatory customs and tariff border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain did not solve the trade problems; it multiplied them. Great Britain is Northern Ireland’s largest market, and something like 70% of Northern Ireland’s retail goods come from Great Britain, so these potential checks will be more harmful than if they were at the land border.

The Prime Minister has given many interviews and there were commitments in the Conservative manifesto saying that our concerns are mistaken. I hope we are mistaken, as I said earlier. If we are, there can be no difficulty in putting those words and commitments into law. It would add a further layer of confidence that, in any breach or failure to fully implement the Prime Minister’s words and his Conservative Party’s manifesto commitments, it should not be Northern Ireland businesses and consumers who pay for that failure but the Government.

In the coming year, there is not one negotiation but two: the UK-EU free trade agreement and the Joint Committee working on the Ireland-Northern Ireland protocol, which has often been spoken about here today. This measure in law would reinforce and bolster a strong negotiating position in a joint committee. The Government’s comments to address the concerns of Northern Ireland at the next stage of negotiations are being given practical action with legal weight.

I turn briefly to Amendment 9. The United Kingdom internal market is vital for the well-being of Northern Ireland, as others have said. We trade more with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the world. As a unionist, I do not want to see any barriers to trade placed inside my country, but from a practical, economic point of view it harms Northern Ireland to have any impediment to internal trade with the United Kingdom. This amendment attracted not just cross-party but all-party support in Northern Ireland. That has already been stated, and it cannot be stated often enough. That level of support is rare in itself, but on Brexit it is unprecedented.

The recently published New Decade, New Approach ushered in the restoration of devolution a little more than a week ago. It states:

“To address the issues raised by the parties, we will legislate to guarantee unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the UK internal market, and ensure that this legislation is in force for 1 January 2021. The government will engage in detail with a restored Executive on measures to protect and strengthen the UK internal market.”


This amendment can put that government commitment into action. Furthermore, the Government have stated that there will be no negative impact on Northern Ireland businesses. The only way to demonstrate that is to carry out the assessment called for by this amendment. It will ensure that there is ongoing monitoring, not just a one-off snap-shot.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Morrow Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, and I do not think its implications could at any point be overestimated. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hain, who moved the amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. Noble Lords will be aware that she has a family funeral tomorrow and has to be back in Northern Ireland this evening. I think she would have been very pleased to hear the detailed, comprehensive explanation given by my noble friend Lord Hain of the implications of the Government’s legislation and the amendments that have been suggested tonight.

It is worth saying that we are having this debate against a backdrop of a changing political situation in Northern Ireland, one that all of us wholeheartedly welcome, which is the return of the Assembly and the Executive. I congratulate the Minister, his colleague the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland parties because compromise was essential to get to this point. It could not have been achieved had not all parties come together, as we have seen in the past, to compromise to ensure that the Assembly is up and running again and the Executive has been established.

It is in that spirit of compromise that I appeal to the Minister tonight, because it is only by having the kind of compromise that has returned the Assembly and the Executive that we can make progress on this issue. We know—and people in Northern Ireland have been told—that the message from this Bill is no compromise, no amendments, nothing must change. That is a wholly unacceptable way to approach any legislation. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, said that people will say this is special pleading for Northern Ireland. I do not think it is. It is pleading not to make life more difficult than it is going to be already. If the Northern Ireland political parties can compromise in the way we have heard about from the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, I am sure the Government can take a step in that direction as well. I am slightly concerned that there has been no Statement from the Government about the progress made in Northern Ireland. I hope one will be forthcoming shortly.

If anybody in government is concerned that this is a series of amendments about not accepting the result of the referendum—my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, made this point—if it were not for accepting the result of the referendum, these amendments would not be required. It is because we are leaving the EU that they are so essential.

I do not want to go through the purpose and the details already outlined by other noble Lords; I want just to re-emphasise three points. First, as the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, these amendments have not just cross-party support, but all-party and none support from people in Northern Ireland. I have not come across anything from anybody in Northern Ireland that says that the purpose behind these amendments is something they reject. It is universal. The Government have to listen to that. The people on the ground understand the implications of Brexit. Whether they support Brexit or not, they still support these amendments.

Secondly—this point has been made—this reflects the promises and commitments that the Government have made to the people of Northern Ireland. We all know that the Prime Minister gets a bit flamboyant during election campaigns, but let us bring it back to what he actually said. Basically, he said, “There will be no checks or tariffs, and if anyone has a problem with that, come and see me—phone me about it”. If that is the case, will the Government publish the phone numbers of the Prime Minister and his deputy, Dominic Cummings, so that people can phone them directly? Nobody is clear about the situation and there is a great deal of mistrust when flamboyant statements are made with no facts behind them.

Thirdly, Northern Ireland needs a level playing field if it is to protect businesses and consumers, as all of us in this House will understand. A trade expert, Professor Alan Winters, has undertaken an analysis that concludes that, taking into account both GB and international goods, a total of 75% of Northern Ireland’s imports could be subject to EU tariffs on arrival. That is a phenomenal amount. It will be damaging to the economy, as we have heard—I will say more on that in a moment—and it will also be quite complicated. Perhaps the Minister can comment on how this will work, but my understanding is that goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain and deemed at risk of being moved to the Republic will be subject to tariffs, but those could be rebated if it could be shown that the goods were consumed in Northern Ireland. How on earth is that going to work? Are we going to check what is consumed or part consumed? It is a recipe for disaster for the economy.

The integrity of Northern Ireland as part of the UK internal market is integral to the success of the Northern Ireland economy. To put additional costs on the economy, whether on the consumer or on businesses, is completely unacceptable. Looking at the political and financial implications of what is being proposed, the Government need to give absolute clarity that there will be unfettered access on trade. If they are unable to do that, they have to accept the amendments.

I say to the Minister that I do not think that the Government’s approach is good enough. I know that he will have a folder of briefing notes. I have been there—I have been a Minister. The notes on the amendment say “resist”, but there are times when that is the wrong course of action. It is not good enough to say that we need a clean Bill. We have heard that in this House before. These amendments can help the Government. They assist them in what they are seeking to do and they assist Northern Ireland. There is no good reason to oppose them, other than trying to take a macho approach to the legislation, but that just will not work. I am sure that the Minister personally is sympathetic, but we need more than warm words. We need to know that the Government are prepared to accept the amendments or come forward with their own suite of amendments.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I should like to speak before the Minister responds. I want to make a few brief remarks, not least on what has already been said. In Northern Ireland we are continually lectured and told, “If you could only speak with one voice, how different things would be.” However, we speak as one voice tonight. We speak not only politically, but for the business community, and I include all those who have spoken on this matter.

I know that the Minister is a listening man, but I want him to go a step further and implement the proposed changes. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Empey, my noble friend Lord McCrea and others have said very clearly what Northern Ireland expects. We must be allowed to function as a country and as a trading partner with the rest of the United Kingdom.

There is no doubt—and those who do not agree with my politics at all have clearly outlined—that what we are being told by the Prime Minister is one thing, but actions always speak louder than words. We need the Prime Minister, the Government and the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, to take on board very clearly that there are serious issues at stake here.

It is ironic that one part of the United Kingdom will have a border with the rest of the United Kingdom. How can that ever be right? Even common sense will tell us that that is not functional; it will just not work.

It has already been stated that Northern Ireland’s economy is built on a multiplicity of small businesses—those which employ and engage fewer than 10 people. That is what our economy is built on; that is the backbone of our economy. We do not disparage the large companies that bring massive employment to our shores, but it has to be said clearly, and I do not exaggerate when I say it this evening, that those small businesses are watching every move, because their future is at stake—not only their future, but that of many homes.

It is no secret that wages in Northern Ireland are lower than those in other regions of the United Kingdom. Many families struggle. Many are in the poverty trap. Many live on the margins, as I call it. Are they not deserving to be treated equally? Is there not a strong case for saying that we need to look at this again? As my colleague and noble friend Lord McCrea has said, there is an ocean of difference in the meaning of the word “may” as compared to the word “must”, which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has asked to be put in. You have an option if you may; you do not have that option if you must.

I concur with those who have said that this is not in any way a wrecking attempt. We know where we are in the whole Brexit debate. We know where we were in relation to Brexit. This is not a last-gasp, desperate attempt to do something over the Government. This can be implemented very easily and respectfully. I associate those remarks with the amendment in my name and the names of my three colleagues. We have absolutely no difficulty in supporting the amendments that have been tabled, and I trust that there will be no difficulty in supporting our amendment. It is there for the right reasons; there is nothing sinister about it. We are absolutely sincere. I plead with this House and with the Government to take it sincerely, because there is so much at stake.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, this has been an expectedly wide-ranging debate because, when it comes to Brexit, the Northern Ireland protocol is where the rubber meets the road. I take on board the comments made this evening in that light. I also note the cross-party support for the amendments before us and I acknowledge that that is a unique occurrence.

I will try to give some context to where I think we need to take the debate. First, there is the question of unfettered access. It is straightforward for me to say that, as part of my party’s election commitment, we spoke of “unfettered access” in our manifesto. Further, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has given a personal commitment on the notion of unfettered access; he is already on record as doing that. Further again, it is important to recognise that the world has changed since this matter was discussed in the other place. Over the weekend something—I will not say “miraculous”, and I do not mean it unkindly—extraordinary happened. We have restored the Executive and the Assembly, so the debate has gone on since then. It is important to note that New Decade, New Approach sets out explicitly that legislation to secure unfettered access will be in force by 1 January next year. Each of these are indeed new elements regarding this matter. It is important to stress that, between now and 1 January, there needs to be a serious and detailed granular dialogue with all of the business community of Northern Ireland as this matter evolves. For the first time we will have the voice of Northern Ireland in its right place—in the Assembly and the Executive. This Government commit to full engagement with the relevant Ministers and the wider Assembly in these matters.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Morrow Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, it would take more than five minutes—the allotted time—to cover all the issues that need to be covered on this vast subject. I am going to focus on abortion, and the steps that the Northern Ireland Office has taken to implement Section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

It is well known that I strongly opposed the introduction of Section 9. It remains my view that it was completely wrong of the 2017-19 Parliament to override the devolution settlement, in the way that it did last summer, to introduce widespread access to abortion in Northern Ireland, thereby shredding the Belfast agreement. The process through which this was allowed to happen was shambolic. I sincerely hope that we will never again see it in this or any future Parliament.

How legislation is introduced and scrutinised matters. This Act is a great example of precisely how it should not be done. We had hugely controversial amendments on abortion tacked on to a piece of emergency legislation which had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject. We had no consultation conducted on the contents of the amendments. We then had a rushed legislative process, marked by chaos and confusion, in which the abortion text inserted in the Bill in the other place was completely rewritten by your Lordships’ House. The final version of Section 9 was ultimately debated only for a paltry 17 minutes in the other place before it became law. Of course, if the Executive had reformed by 21 October, this poorly drafted and badly thought-through legislation, which bizarrely—and completely unnecessarily—contains a limbo period of over five months between the two legal regimes, would never have come to pass. However, to my deep regret, the Executive did not reform, and Section 9 is now the law governing abortion in Northern Ireland.

The Northern Ireland Office, in seeking to uphold its legal obligations, has run a consultation on a new set of regulations. I am grateful that the NIO sought to run a consultation, although, as I could point out, it was a deeply flawed one. Before I turn to that, however, I want to pose some specific questions to the Minister about the current limbo period in Northern Ireland. This situation will pertain until 31 March 2020, when the new regulatory framework comes into force. Until now, the Northern Ireland Office has dismissed questions about the current legal situation with vague generalisations.

First, can the Minister clarify for the House that it is in fact legal for women to purchase abortion pills online in Northern Ireland without restriction at the current time? I would value his comments. While it may be an offence under the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 to provide such prescription medications, it is not illegal to take them in Northern Ireland any more. Additionally, can the Minister make it clear that there is no restriction currently in place as to where these pills can be taken, unlike in Great Britain?

Secondly, it remains unclear to me which criminal statute criminalises non- consensual abortions in Northern Ireland in the absence of Section 58. I remain particularly concerned about the practice of placing noxious substances in the food or drink of pregnant women without their knowledge for the purpose of ending their pregnancy. In cases of this that have gone to court in the UK, the law that has been cited to protect women is Section 58. I raised this matter with the Minister when we debated these matters on 17 October. He responded by saying:

“I listened with some interest to the notion of noxious substances, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and the deliberate attempt to abort a foetus by a dominant male administering the process. I note in saying that there are a number of laws in Northern Ireland that would be absolutely applicable should an individual seek to abuse the body of another person in this regard. They carry with them very significant sentences. At present, the law has not been used in this regard, but it certainly could be. There would be no question that somebody could, with some sort of lightness of touch, escape from criminal justice in this regard. I would like to make sure that nobody in Northern Ireland is of the view that there may be secret poisonings that could somehow go both unreported and unaddressed. That would be the wrong thing to take from this debate here today.”—[Official Report, 17/10/19; col. 276.]


I was very grateful to the Minister for that response. However, in saying,

“there are a number of laws in Northern Ireland that would be absolutely applicable should an individual seek to abuse the body of another person in this regard”

he did not tell us which laws he had in mind. I sincerely hope that he was not thinking of Sections 23 and 24 of the Offences Against the Person Act because, while these provisions are relevant, they do not provide women the same level of protection that they receive in England and Wales under Section 58.