Transport System: Failings

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the compelling contribution to our debate by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. It was also a great pleasure, as always, to listen to my noble friend Lord Snape. He is a great expert on these matters.

I will speak about railways. Like everybody else who wanted to speak about this, I was caught short this morning by my honourable friend Louise Haigh’s statement about the Labour Party’s position on railways, which I fully support. Some 44 years ago, at Newport station in south Wales, there was a banner that said: “Ninety minutes from Newport to Paddington”. We had very comfortable trains, the food was edible and, of course, the stations that the trains went from were impressive—not least Newport station, the second-busiest and second-largest in Wales. I fear that this is not the case today.

When I was a lad, the station had a wonderful façade and a great entrance, and it was admired by all, but someone decided some years ago to change it for the Ryder Cup. They put the station extension in the wrong place, and the building was so awful that it was regarded as the ugliest building built in 2011. Worse than that, when you go to Newport station now you find that the toilets do not work and are out of order; the lifts have been out of order for some weeks; the buffet café has long been closed; when the station floods, it does so extremely badly; and there is a lot of scaffolding in the station. I referred to the banner that said it took 90 minutes to Paddington. Now, 44 years later, it takes 10 minutes longer to get from Newport to Paddington despite electrification—and, of course, the food on the trains is junk.

When you look at the Great Western Railway, which I have done nearly all my life, you see that its staff are hugely impressive, courteous and engaging, and electrification has certainly helped, but over a number of years we have seen a deterioration in the service of a once great railway company. Cancellations of trains are normal, unreliability is inevitable, there is lateness nearly all the time and, perhaps worse than all that, the overcrowding is now wholly unacceptable. The reason is that the number of carriages on the trains running from London to south Wales and the West Country is often cut by half—from 10 to five is quite normal. I was on one not long ago that was so overcrowded that a woman actually fainted at Reading station, and the train had to stop for about 15 minutes.

Over the last three decades we have seen deterioration. In 1994, when I was in the House of Commons, I voted against privatisation, and I see no reason in the world why I was wrong. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours’s excellent speech on what has happened to railways in the intervening years was absolutely right. The fare structure is complicated, fares are hugely too high, and of course industrial relations are in a mess. It is a sorry story, and that is a great shame because I am a great lover of our railways, as are many of your Lordships. It is the best way to travel, it is the most environmentally sensible way, and it is the way that I would always inevitably choose. It is a sadness that your Lordships have had to comment on and point to the deficiencies of the network in our country. I have touched on a few relating to the GWR but there are other examples as well.

I personally welcome the announcement by my party today on taking the railways into public ownership but not in an old-fashioned way, by letting the franchises disappear and replacing them, as has happened with a number of companies in the country. That is the way ahead. I just hope that, in five or six years’ time, the Great Western Railway will be replaced by the great British railway.

Severn Bridges (Tolling)

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

As I am so old, I remember the opening of the first Severn bridge in 1966. What it most certainly was not was a bridge from England to the Forest of Dean. It was a bridge from England to Wales, and it was by pure technical and geographical chance that the engineers decided to put it at the tip of the constituency of the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). Similarly, when the second Severn bridge crossing was built, I was on the Standing Committee of this House that dealt with it. It was the then Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Walker, who decided that it was the thing to do. The vast majority of the traffic on both bridges is due to people wanting to go between England and Wales, so I do not agree for one second with the hon. Member for Forest of Dean that either a third Severn crossing is necessary, or that tolls would have to be maintained after the concession ends to pay for a third crossing. The original Severn crossing is obviously not used as much as the second crossing, although I use it quite a bit, so heaven only knows how little traffic there would be on a third. There is no agreement whatever among Welsh MPs—or, I would have thought, English ones—that the bridges are anything other than a lifeline between England and Wales.

The crossings have brought great benefits to Wales, as they have to England; there is no question about that. However, there are difficulties, which my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) referred to in her fine speech, because of the haulage industry and tourists. I agree with the hon. Member for Forest of Dean that there are plenty of people who wish to travel to the Wye valley, the Forest of Dean, other parts of south-east Wales, and to the west country on the other side of the bridge, for tourism reasons. They are obviously caught heavily by the high tolls on the bridge, and it is about time those tolls ended.

The question is: when will that happen? In 2010 or something like that—I cannot quite remember—we were told, I think here in Westminster Hall, by the then Minister that 2017 was when the concession was likely to end. We, and the Welsh Affairs Committee, have been told that it is probable that the concession will end in 2018. However, we have been further told—this is a new one—that it could well go on until the 2020s, because the Department for Transport has found that it is apparently owed some £112 million, because it spent public money on, and in debt over, a bridge that was privately owned.

I am a bit sceptical about all that, to be perfectly honest. I think that all these sudden discoveries in the DFT are excuses to extend the franchise and maintain the tolls for as long as possible. I am hugely sceptical, and I fear I have to disagree with the hon. Member for Forest of Dean—for whom I have a great deal of time, although we do not seem to agree on this subject—on the issue of who controls the bridge; it is a bit more complicated than he suggested. Yes indeed, three of the four entrances, as it were, to the bridges are in England, but then two would be anyway—would they not?—because people on one side have to travel to the other side. I have already explained that the first Severn bridge is an aberration, in that it goes into a bit of the Forest of Dean, near Chepstow. Of course, the second Severn crossing completely goes into the terrain of the Welsh Assembly. The Welsh Government’s interest in this matter therefore cannot be easily dismissed. About 25%, if not more, of all traffic that enters Wales from England goes across those bridges.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The transport spokesperson for the Tories in the Assembly, Mr Byron Davies, said this time last year:

“Devolution of the crossings—and future use of the tolls—has the real potential to help hard-pressed motorists, provide significant investment in Welsh infrastructure and encourage economic growth”.

That is the sort of argument that I made in one of my first speeches in this place in 2010. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is imperative that all parties in Wales speak with one voice, rather than the Conservatives saying one thing in Wales and saying something different here in Westminster? Of course, the same applies to the other parties.

[Paul Murphy]

I agree. That follows a pattern over the past few weeks, with a huge disagreement on taxation, but that is another issue. It would be worth while the hon. Member for Forest of Dean getting in his car one day, going on the M4 to Cardiff Bay, and chatting with the transport spokesperson for his party in Cardiff.

[Mr Harper]

I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman that the Welsh Assembly and Government have an interest in this. I agree with the conclusion of the Welsh Affairs Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), that the British Government should discuss the matter and have a proper conversation, because it is important. My point was that decisions have to be taken by a Government accountable to people in England and Wales. The problem with decisions about the bridge tolls being wholly under the control of the Welsh Assembly is that my constituents have no democratic input into that Government, who will make decisions solely based on interests in Wales. The United Kingdom Government can consider the interests of the whole UK, and people living in both England and Wales. That is why the decision making should stay there.

[Paul Murphy]

Perhaps there should be joint decision making, or some arrangement could be made. Yes, of course, the bridge is hugely important to the people of the Forest of Dean and elsewhere in Gloucestershire, but that was not the purpose of building the bridges. I repeat that they were not built to go to the Forest of Dean or Gloucester; they were built to ensure that Wales and England were connected, to avoid the terrible journey through the Forest of Dean, around Gloucestershire and on to the A4.

[Stephen Doughty]

My right hon. Friend makes a crucial point. Are the bridges not also a crucial European transport road link to the Republic of Ireland? There are benefits from and consequences for that crucial trade link. Access to Cardiff airport is also important and needs to be considered.

[Paul Murphy]

Indeed. That is why, in a post-devolution world, the Welsh Government have a huge interest in this matter. I hope that the Minister tells the House that he has been in conversation with his colleagues in Cardiff.

Finally, let me mention what happens to tolls after the concession finishes. Yes, of course, VAT means that there will be money available anyway, and what is collected in VAT should at least go to ensuring that the toll is lowered, but there is more to it than that. Lying behind everything in Government is the dead hand of the Treasury. I spent a decade having to deal with the Treasury as a Minister. Anybody who has been a Minister knows that it wants to get as much money as possible—that is its job—but it is the job of Ministers to obstruct it as far as they can, to ensure that the people can occasionally benefit from a concession.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

If I may help the right hon. Gentleman, he gave a figure of £120 million outstanding at the end of the concession. The projection that I have is of £88 million at the end of the concession in 2018. It will take one or two years to recover this money. Under the terms of the Severn Bridges Act 1992, an update will be given to the Welsh Affairs Committee in April on the accounts of the previous year.

[Paul Murphy]

The Minister will, of course, have greater knowledge than me of the figures from his Department, but whether or not it is £88 million, they would like it to be £112 million, and probably a bit more than that. Ultimately, the money that is there to pay the concessioner, which is going into the pockets of the Severn crossing company, could eventually be made available to reduce the tolls on the bridges and save people who use it from being burdened. My fear is that there is a huge temptation, whether in the Department for Transport or the Treasury, to retain that money and simply put it back into the public coffers. That would be deeply wrong.

The hon. Member for Forest of Dean made a valid point when he said that the money could be used for infrastructure. However, I disagree, because there is no need for a third Severn crossing. There may be a case for infrastructure around the bridges, but that would be a relatively small amount in general terms. No, the people of Wales and England—and the people of other parts of Europe who use our bridges—should be given the opportunity to have lower tolls when the concession ends. Although the Minister cannot commit himself to that today, I hope that he does not dismiss that outright as the aspiration of all of us.

Severn Crossings Toll

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Thursday 19th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman has said that the Labour Government did not act on these issues. He might not remember this—it was a long time ago—but 20 years ago I served in the Committee that considered the Severn Bridges Act 1992. The Welsh Affairs Committee report says that the deal that was struck in 1991 was a poor one. One of the reasons why was that it could not easily be changed. That, as much as anything else, is the real reason why we are in the situation we are in today.

[David T. C. Davies]

The right hon. Gentleman has far more knowledge of what happened in 1991 than I do. However, if we had asked for a more advantageous and flexible Bill from our point of view, I presume that SRC would have asked for more than £1 billion. I was not party to the negotiations, but I imagine that it would not have simply rolled over and given way that easily—I do not know. What I know is that it is all up for grabs after 2017 or thereabouts. It is important, first of all, that we have hard evidence about the impact on the local area.

The hon. Member for Swansea East—

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Davies—I have just realised that one third of the Members in the Chamber are called Davies.

The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and I ought to form a Gwent national party because I agreed entirely with everything he said when opening the debate. Again, the Select Committee is to be commended on its work. Interestingly, in our earlier debate, the Under-Secretary of State for Wales said that it is quite rare for Members from Wales to get together and agree on everything but, within minutes, we have an example of doing precisely that. We agreed on the importance of the bridge—we welcomed the building of the second Severn crossing in the early ’90s—and on what is likely to happen in 2017, when the concession runs out and the Government take over the running of the two bridges.

I remember the first bridge being opened and I also, as I said in an intervention, led jointly for the Opposition on the Severn Bridges Bill in 1991—so long ago, in fact, that half the membership of the Bill Committee is dead and the other half, except for me, is in the House of Lords. It was interesting reading the debate because, although we agreed with the building of the second Severn crossing, which was absolutely necessary, there were concerns about the nature of the deal and of the concession. I am glad that the Select Committee referred to that in its report:

“Our inquiry demonstrates the inflexibility contained in the Severn Bridges Act 1992 and the concession agreement between the Government and Severn River Crossing Plc. This has made it difficult for the Government to respond to the current economic climate and freeze the toll”—

whether the Government of which I was a member or the present Government, because both would find it difficult to change the intricate concession and deal agreed 20-odd years ago, and we must look to the future on that.

I agreed very much with my hon. Friends the Members for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) and for Newport East (Jessica Morden) on how new technology has not been introduced on the bridge that I will cross in five hours’ time. All of us who travel to Europe, France in particular, and to other countries have seen the most sophisticated technology—number plate recognition or using credit cards and so on—but none of that has happened on our bridges into Wales. Frankly, that is a matter of public scandal. All Governments are to blame for not putting pressure on the company to ensure that.

The other issue that was raised in 1991 was that there ought, we believed, to be local inquiries every time the tolls were to be increased substantially. That proposal was defeated in Committee; it would have been a good idea, but it did not happen.

I read with great interest the Select Committee’s questioning of the top officials of Severn River Crossing plc. I entirely understood the questions posed by the Committee, especially those of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), but I failed to understand the answers—perhaps that was my fault—and the finances surrounding the end of the concession are as murky as the Severn itself. I do not know who, if anyone, will make a great deal of money in a few years’ time, but I do know that when we look at the figures, the running costs are £15 million a year and the income is £72 million a year. The debt is almost paid off and no new technology has been put in, so one wonders a little why those figures do not quite add up.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Does he agree that it was very strange that, during those deliberations, the company was unable to provide us with its likely profit at the end of the concessionary period?

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

It was amazing. I hope that this debate and any consequent Government policy might lead to discussions with Severn River Crossing plc so that we can get to the bottom of what, frankly, I could not understand.

An impact assessment has been started by the Welsh Assembly Government. There is now a new Executive in Cardiff—I believe that the Minister is Huw Lewis, but I might be wrong—and I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), when he winds up our debate, agrees on the great need for collaboration between the Welsh Assembly Government, the Department for Transport and, if we can persuade it, Her Majesty’s Treasury. In a few years’ time, there will be a huge change in how the bridges are operated and financed, and we must start preparing now.

Tolls (Severn Bridges)

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Jessica Morden]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and agree that this is an issue for the whole of Wales. In particular, first-time visitors to Wales are an example of that. The issue does have that impact. I receive a bulging postbag on the issue from constituents and businesses and I want to highlight some of the points that they raise with me.

First, will the Minister examine the cost of the tolls? Every year on 1 January, the tolls go up in accordance with the Severn Bridges Act 1992. Under the agreement with Severn River Crossing plc, the company is permitted to collect tolls from both bridges for a concessions period until the project’s target real revenue level is reached or the time limit is up. I understand that at that point, the bridges revert to the Secretary of State’s control.

We are going through tough economic times. Commuters’ hours are being cut and there are pay freezes and high petrol prices, yet the tolls still go up. Severn bridge tolls are among the most expensive in the UK for cars, costing £5.50. My first request to the Minister is that he should examine the issue of toll rises, step in and recommend a freeze in this year’s tolls, particularly in the light of yesterday’s VAT rise. While he is at it, will he also examine whether we could implement a reduction in tolls for those who live locally? That could be worked out by postcode area, for example. Such a scheme has been introduced on the Dartford crossing. It is easier to do on the Humber and the Dartford crossing as there is no concessionaire, but why can we not have a look at doing it in Wales?

The second issue is the payment method for tolls. Currently, people can pay to go over the bridges only by cash, including euros, or by cheque. Those who are unfortunate enough to approach the bridge thinking that they can pay by such new-fangled methods as credit and debit cards are frustrated. Many constituents have regaled me with stories of getting to the tolls, not having the right money, being escorted over the bridge and then being told to go back over the bridge and to go to Gordano services, which is a round trip of about 20 miles. That is hardly a welcome to Wales for first-time visitors and it is not much fun for the long-suffering staff collecting the tolls, who have to put up with frustrated motorists.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend may not recall that I was a member of the 1992 Bill Committee that dealt with this issue. That was a very long time ago. Is it not right that after 18 years, the whole business of the Severn bridge and its tolls should be brought up to date?

[Jessica Morden]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I agree with him. Progress was made on the method of payment of tolls by the previous Minister and it would be helpful if this Minister could confirm exactly when debit and credit card payments will begin and that the card-handling charge will not be passed on to the traveller. I would not expect Tesco to charge me more for paying by card, and I do not see why the bridges should be any different.

That brings me to the impact of the tolls on business in south Wales. The Severn crossing tolls, which are felt by many people to be a tax on entering Wales, are the highest in the UK for all but the largest vehicles. Light goods vehicles pay £10.90, compared with £2.00 for the Dartford crossing and £4.90 on the Humber. The Skye and Forth bridges are free. Heavy goods vehicles must pay £16.30, but on the Humber the charge is £10.90 or £14.60, depending on size. The Dartford crossing charges just £3.70 per heavy goods vehicle, and the Forth and Skye bridges are free.

An example in my constituency of the burden of the tolls is given by Owens Road Services, a long-standing Welsh company with a base in Newport that represents 1% of the total heavy goods vehicle traffic on the crossing. Owens pays £16,000 a month by standing order account and over £200,000 a year. The annual toll increases just come off the company’s bottom line; they are not passed on to customers because contracts have to be renegotiated and times are hard. The crossing represents a charge on the Welsh logistics industry that is not paid by competitors in England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Baker]

I do not want to commit to that here, but I will happily receive information that is supplied to me, and I will bear in mind that request as and when it comes in.

The Severn Bridges Act 1992 seeks to apply a clear structure to the tolls to give the concessionaire confidence that it will be able to meet its liabilities and manage the risks that it accepted through the concession agreement. The toll levels were set for three categories of vehicles at the time of tender and are embodied in the Act. The Act sets out the tolling arrangements and the basis for yearly increases in the toll rates. Toll rates are fixed in real terms. The new rates are introduced on 1 January each year and are increased in line with the retail price index using a formula, and rounded to the nearest 10p.

I want to stress an important point: the Secretary of State does not have the authority to set the annual tolls below the level of RPI increase without the concessionaire's agreement. The concessionaire would not be able to agree to anything that would affect their net revenue without compensation and agreement from their shareholders and lenders, which would result, if such an agreement were forthcoming, in a cost to the taxpayer.

Tolls are charged in a westbound direction only from England into Wales. The current toll prices are: £5.50 for cars, £10.90 for vans and £16.40 for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes. I do understand hon. Members’ concerns that those are higher than apply in other crossings.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The Minister made reference to the fact that it is an estuarial crossing, but it is unique in the United Kingdom because it goes into a part of our country that now has a devolved Government. When I served as Secretary of State, some of my conversations with the then First Minister were about how we deal with a situation where tolls are charged to come into Wales but not to go out. The impact on the Welsh economy is very severe, particularly in times such as this. The Minister ought to think a little more about the importance of having a dialogue with his counterpart in Cardiff, because of the importance of this to the Welsh economy in these difficult times.

[Norman Baker]

I am very happy to have dialogue with my counterpart or anyone else in the Welsh Assembly if they wish to do so. The issue has just been raised for the first time with the new Government—this is the first Adjournment debate on it. I am perfectly open to suggestions of dialogue with people from Wales or elsewhere on issues for which my Department is responsible.

I want to talk about VAT, which was raised by the hon. Member for Newport East. When VAT was first applied to the crossings in 2003, following a European Court ruling, there was no increase in the toll to the motorist. Following the Chancellor's statement yesterday, the Highways Agency will discuss adjustments within the concession to accommodate the new 20% VAT rate with Severn River Crossing plc. We do not expect the VAT increase to be passed on through an increase in the tolls, but the concessionaire expects to receive a certain amount of money, and the way in which that can be accommodated without increasing tolls is a matter for negotiation.

I know that the hon. Member for Newport East has an interest in local discount schemes, to which she referred in her opening remarks. Any discounts or exemptions are a matter for the concessionaire to decide, provided that they comply with existing legislation. Where that is not the case, such schemes cannot be introduced without changes to primary legislation and the concession agreement. They would have a financial impact on the concession and the period required for repayment, which would impact all road users. Discounts of around 20% for regular and frequent users are offered by way of a season TAG, whereas blue badge holders and the emergency services are exempt.

I now turn to the matter of card payments, which I know the hon. Lady pursued before the election and, with some justification, can claim to have had some success on in her campaign. In March this year, an amendment was made to the Severn Bridges Regulations 1996 to allow card payments at the tollbooths. She will recognise that there are associated costs with the introduction of card payments, mainly bank transaction charges, which are estimated to be between £7 million and £10 million to the end of the concession, or approximately £1 million per year depending on usage. Implementation is expected to cost around £1.2 million, and the way in which the additional costs will be funded has yet to be agreed. Discussions with the concessionaire to resolve the financial issues regarding the introduction of credit card payments are ongoing, but work to amend the tolling software to allow for the processing of credit and debit cards has started.

One of the drivers—no pun intended—that the hon. Lady will be aware of is the Ryder cup, one of the highest profile sporting events in the world. It is due to be held in Newport between 27 September and 3 October this year, with about 50,000 visitors a day, the majority of whom will come from overseas and will not be flush with money in their pockets to pay the tolls. We want to make progress on the matter, and I hope to have it resolved before the Ryder cup begins. My officials assure me that that will be the case, and I will look into the matter to ensure that that is so.

An hon. Member also raised the issue of motorists being sent back after driving some way and finding that they could not pay by card. I understand that signs are in place close to the bridge, before the last junction, advising motorists of the current arrangements, which is that they can pay only in cash. However, if they arrive at the tolls, I have been assured that they do not necessarily have to make a U-turn; they can be issued with an invoice with an added administration fee of £5. The problem with turning motorists back has been recognised, and that is being dealt with in the way I described as an interim measure. If that was new information to Members present, I hope that that was helpful.

Regarding maintenance, the concessionaire is required to maintain both Severn crossings in accordance with the concession agreement. A rigorous schedule of inspections is carried out and regular review meetings are held between the concessionaire and the Highways Agency.

A programme of cable inspections on the first Severn bridge began in April 2006 after corrosion was found in the suspension cables of bridges of a similar age and construction in other parts of the world. Unfortunately, significant levels of corrosion were found and a programme of works to tackle the corrosion followed. A full dehumidification system has been installed to address the corrosion. The system, which pumps dry air into the cables to reduce humidity, has been operational since December 2008. Reports show that humidity levels within the main cable are below the target level of 40% relative humidity. In addition, an acoustic monitoring system has been installed to track the rate and location of any further deterioration. A second round of inspections is currently under way to gain a detailed understanding of the level of corrosion and to verify the success of the dehumidification process so far. That work is due for completion later this year.

The corrosion of the main cables is a defect that existed before the letting of the concession and unfortunately—from my point of view—is not covered by the concession agreement. Costs associated with this work will therefore be met by the Government. The programme of mitigation and inspection work carried out so far has cost the Government £15 million, with the second round of inspections costing us a further £4 million.

Reports in the local media—and a letter from a Member of the National Assembly for Wales—suggest that the concessionaire will hand back the crossings in a state of disrepair. The suggestion was made earlier that, once the concession ends, the taxpayer will have to foot the bill. Let me make it clear, the concessionaire is bound by the legal terms of the concession, which it signed, to maintain the crossings to an acceptable standard. When the concession ends, the concessionaire is required to carry out any necessary maintenance and repair works on the crossings prior to handover. That is a legally binding commitment and is what I expect them to do.