Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Rosser Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
“( ) The CAA must, at such intervals as it considers appropriate, review market power determinations made on the basis of an earlier analysis.”
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this is a probing amendment. The Bill provides that operators of dominant areas located at dominant airports require a licence to levy charges for airport operation services, and states that an airport area is dominant if the CAA makes a determination that the market power test is met in relation to the area. Subsection (8) of Clause 7 states that the Civil Aviation Authority may make separate market power determinations in respect of different areas at the same airport with the same relevant operator and may also make a market power determination in respect of an airport area that consists of two or more areas that are not adjacent if the areas are located at the same airport. Subsection (9) then states that a market power determination ceases to have effect if the Civil Aviation Authority publishes a notice of a further market power determination in relation to the airport area or in relation to an area that includes all of the airport area.
The effect of the amendment, which would add further words to the end of Clause 7(8), would be to require the Civil Aviation Authority, at such intervals as it considers appropriate, to,
“review market power determinations made on the basis of an earlier analysis”.
It is not clear whether other wording in the clause, or elsewhere in the Bill, is intended to require the Civil Aviation Authority to review decisions that it has made on market power determination. Circumstances can change over a period of time, and factors that were important in the original decision may cease to be so, or other factors may come into play.
Other subsections in Clause 7 say that the Civil Aviation Authority may make a determination that the market power test is or is not met in relation to an airport area, and that the Civil Aviation Authority must make a market power determination if asked to do so by the operator of the airport area or any other person whose interests are likely to be materially affected by the determination, subject to certain laid-down criteria being met.
There ought to be a requirement for the Civil Aviation Authority to review market power determinations it has made, irrespective of whether it is asked to do so. Subject to what the Minister has to say in reply, that does not appear to be a requirement laid down in the Bill. Even the reference in subsection (1) to the Civil Aviation Authority making a determination whenever it considers it appropriate to do so is not clear as to whether it also means reviewing a market power determination it has made that the test has been met or whether it applies only to making determinations where it has not previously been decided that the test has been met.
If the Minister does not intend to accept the amendment, I hope that he will say why the Government do not consider it appropriate, if that be their argument, or which provisions already in the Bill cover the issue raised in the amendment. Perhaps the Minister could also say how often the Government expect the Civil Aviation Authority to be making market power determinations. Are they likely to be regular occurrences and is it anticipated that such decisions will have to be revised or amended on a regular or frequent basis or only rarely? I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I was surprised at the last sitting of the Committee when my noble friend made it clear that it is envisaged by the Government that there should be competition between two different terminals at the same airport. At an airport such as the JFK International in New York, where the terminals are situated widely apart and are approached in different ways, there may be some sense in that. Even in as large an airport as Heathrow, which now has five terminals, I find it difficult to conceive how there could be competition between the various terminals. It is built into this clause, on which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has moved his amendment, which seems to have some merit.
I would be grateful if, in responding, my noble friend could describe how he sees such competition arising. At the moment, taking Heathrow or Gatwick as an example, they are all under the same management. It may be separate between the airports; I find it difficult to conceive how it might happen between terminals. I would be grateful if my noble friend could explain how this might come about. It would obviously need to involve a change of ownership between the different terminals. Is there any prospect of that or is it somehow envisaged that there should be competition without a change of ownership? Perhaps my noble friend might explain that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the large airport test certainly applies in Clause 7(2), which refers to areas located in large airports. It goes on to define a large airport. I suspect that the CAA can make a determination on any other airport at a later stage if it becomes apparent that it might be in need of regulation and meets the tests in the Bill. Therefore, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
Perhaps I might ask the noble Earl one last question before I withdraw my probing amendment. The thrust of his response seemed to be that what I sought to achieve with the amendment was covered by other parts of Clause 7. Do other parts of Clause 7 allow the CAA to initiate a review of an earlier decision that it has made off its own bat, or only if it is asked to by a person listed in subsection (3)?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my understanding is that as soon as the CAA realises that it is appropriate to initiate a review because circumstances have changed, it can do so.
Lord Rosser
That is a very clear answer. The Minister has said that the CAA can do it off its own bat. I will want to read the Minister’s response carefully but my initial reaction is that if the Minister is saying that my amendment is covered by other wording in Clause 7, the point that I seek to establish has been met. I will not go down the road of competition, which has been raised, since that will be dealt with by a subsequent amendment. I will wait for it to appear. I thank the Minister for his response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in moving government Amendment 20, I shall speak also to government Amendments 21, 22, 23, 30, 32, 33, 35 to 45 and 61 to 63. These 20 amendments are being taken together because they all relate to appeals to the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal. Some 13 of the amendments give effect to our position that the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal should decide appeals on the same grounds. The other seven amendments ensure that both the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal have regard to the duties imposed on the CAA as set out in Clause 1 when deciding an appeal. For brevity, I will refer to the Competition Commission as the CC and to the Competition Appeal Tribunal as the CAT.
It has come to the Government’s attention that the current drafting in the Bill gives rise to inconsistency between the grounds on which the CC and the CAT may allow an appeal. In the present drafting, although the legal grounds on which an appeal may be allowed are the same, the CAT is specifically required to decide the appeal by reference to these grounds and “on the merits”. There is no equivalent provision for the CC to decide the appeal “on the merits”.
The Government are concerned that this inconsistency creates unnecessary and undesirable legal uncertainty. We wish to correct this to shut out any risk that under the current wording it could be interpreted that different powers are being conferred on the CC and the CAT. In summary, these amendments propose changes to the provisions about appeals to the CAT to align them with provisions about appeals to the CC.
Amendment 30 is to one of the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal under Clauses 24 or 25 which relate to appeals against conditions of new licences and modifications to the licence conditions. The amendment would change the ground on which the CC may allow an appeal from,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
as it is currently in the Bill, to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”,
as per the amendment. This amendment is being made to clarify the current drafting.
The remaining amendments are specific to appeals brought before the CAT. Amendments 35, 36, 37, 40, 43 and 61 delete the subsections that contain the current grounds on which the CAT may allow an appeal in Schedules 1, 3, 4, 5 and 13. Amendment 20 deletes a provision stating that an appeal may be brought on only one of the current grounds. Amendments 21, 38, 41, 44 and 62 replace these grounds with the same grounds as provided for in Clause 26 concerning appeals to the CC from,
“that the determination is based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
In particular, Amendments 21, 38, 41, 44 and 62 ensure that the CAT’s consideration of appeals is consistent with the CC’s by, first, removing the phrase “on the merits” from the grounds on which the CAT must decide an appeal, as just discussed; secondly, introducing an overall requirement that the decision appealed against was wrong on specified grounds—error of fact, wrong in law, and error in the exercise of discretion; thirdly, restricting the grounds for determining the appeal in the same way as for the CC; and, fourthly, reflecting Amendment 20 which, as I have just mentioned, clarifies the grounds of wrong exercise of discretion.
The overall result of these 13 amendments is that both the CC and the CAT may allow an appeal only to the extent that they are satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds: that the decision or determination was based on an error of fact; that the decision or determination was wrong in law; and that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion.
These amendments are important to deliver the Government’s policy intention that the grounds on which the CC and the CAT decide appeals should be the same. They are also in keeping with our wish to deliver an efficient and effective appeals regime. These amendments allow the CC and the CAT to take a decision that offers something more than judicial review but does not extend to a potentially lengthy full rehearing of the case. The remaining seven amendments again ensure consistency between the two bodies. Amendments 32 and 33 to Clause 30 specify that when the Competition Commission is carrying out its functions as specified under subsection (4) of Clause 30, it must have regard to the matters,
“in respect of which duties are imposed on the CAA by section 1”.
Amendments 22, 39, 42 and 45 import an express duty on the CAT to have regard to the CAA’s duties as set out in Section 1 when deciding an appeal under Schedules 1, 3, 4 and 5. Amendment 63 imports an express duty on the CAT to have regard to the CAA’s duties as set out in Section 4 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 when deciding an appeal under Schedule 13. My officials have engaged extensively with the CAT and the CC on this matter and they are content with the amendments. I commend them to your Lordships.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, perhaps I may take one of the amendments in the group to make my point. Government Amendment 30 deletes paragraph (c) in Clause 26, which says that the Competition Commission may allow an appeal under Section 24 or 25 only to the extent that it is satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds, one of which is that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion. That wording has now been replaced in government Amendment 30 with the wording,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I endeavoured to listen carefully to what the Minister had to say about this group of amendments and, if he did cover my point, I would be grateful if he could repeat his explanation. He seemed to say that this was all about clarifying the current drafting as opposed to explaining what the difference was between the wording in the Bill and what is being proposed, bearing in mind that it is not the same wording and therefore presumably does not mean exactly the same.
It would be helpful if the Minister could explain what this change in wording means. I refer to government Amendment 30 to paragraph (c) in Clause 26. Does the change from “wrong exercise” mean that although a decision was made incorrectly, the process was fine and the options to choose from were correct, the proposed wording,
“an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”,
is meant to imply that the exercise itself was flawed, had the wrong information to hand, was conducted incorrectly and options were considered that should not have been? It is important that we do not just get told, “We are seeking to clarify the current drafting”, but that we have a full explanation as to what the current wording in Clause 26 means—this relates to,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
and how that differs in meaning from the wording with which Amendment 21 replaces it,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I hope that the Minister can clarify the position.
Lord Soley
Before the Minister replies, I was looking at this with some interest. I cannot help feeling that the issue might be one of parliamentary drafting. I would like to know whether the CAA, the airlines or the Competition Commission asked for the wording to be changed. My noble friend Lord Rosser has already pointed out that there is a change of wording, with “the wrong exercise”, but it is also odd that the original wording from Schedule 1 is in the present tense, whereas the wording in the amendment is in the past tense. I cannot help feeling that the parliamentary draftsman who did it first was found to have got something slightly wrong; I am not sure what. It is puzzling why that wording has changed from the present to the past tense, unless it is just for a legal reason. If there is another reason, I would like to see where the amendment came from and why.
Lord Rosser
Perhaps I may ask the Minister to clarify what the wording means. When I made my contribution a few moments ago, I asked whether the current wording,
“wrong exercise of a discretion”,
meant that if a decision was made incorrectly, the process was fine and the options to choose from were still correct. I then asked if the new wording,
“error … made in the exercise of a discretion”,
was intended to imply that that the exercise itself was flawed, that it had the wrong information to hand or was conducted incorrectly, and that options had been considered that should not have been. Does the wording we now have mean one of those two options—and, if so, which one?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is probably best if I write to noble Lords; this is a very technical point.
Lord Rosser
“( ) that the appeal does not demonstrably show that it is in the interests of users of air transport services”
Lord Rosser
My Lords, as we have just been discussing, Clauses 24 and 25 deal with appeals to the Competition Commission in respect of, first, the conditions of new licences and, secondly, modification of licence conditions. Under the Bill, persons who operate a dominant area at a dominant airport require a licence to levy charges. An appeal lies to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to include, or not to include, a condition in a licence when it is granted, and an appeal also lies to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to modify a licence condition.
An appeal can be brought only with the permission of the Competition Commission and the Bill states that the Competition Commission may refuse permission to appeal only on one of the following grounds: that the appeal is brought for reasons that are trivial or vexatious, or that the appeal does not have a reasonable prospect of success. Clearly, from the wording in the Bill there is a concern that trivial or vexatious appeals should be stopped. I am sure we would all agree with that objective, and my amendment seeks to add in a further ground on which permission to appeal can be refused—namely, that the appeal does not demonstrably show that it is in the interests of users of air transport services, in order to further minimise the potential for frivolous or vexatious appeals.
The primary duty of the Civil Aviation Authority, as set out in Clause 1, is that it must carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services. Surely, then, there must be an argument for saying that in any appeal to the Competition Commission against a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to include, or not to include, a condition in a licence, or in any appeal against a decision by the CAA to modify a licence condition—both instances relating to persons who operate a dominant area at a dominant airport—it should also have to be shown quite clearly that the appeal is in the interests of users of air transport services, bearing in mind that that is the primary duty and responsibility placed on the Civil Aviation Authority, whose decision is being appealed.
Clause 30, on the procedure on appeals, states that subsections (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 1 apply to the carrying out by the Competition Commission of its function of deciding an application for permission to appeal under Clauses 24 and 25. Clause 30 refers to subsections (1) (2) and (5) of Clause 1, and subsection (1) refers to the Civil Aviation Authority having, where appropriate, to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services. In a debate on an amendment when we were previously discussing the Bill in Committee, the Minister said that subsection (1) of Clause 1 would take priority over subsection (2) as far as the Civil Aviation Authority was concerned if promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services conflicted with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which the Civil Aviation Authority considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services.
However, it is not clear whether the giving of priority to subsection (1) over subsection (2) in Clause 1 where there is any sort of conflict applies also to the Competition Commission under Clause 30. Without it apparently being clear that it does, the Competition Commission, bearing in mind its name, might well give greater weight to promoting competition when deciding whether or not to refuse permission to appeal, rather than wanting to satisfy itself that the appeal is in the interests of users of air transport services, which is clearly stated in this amendment and is in accordance with the primary, overriding duty of the Civil Aviation Authority as laid down in Clause 1(1).
I hope that the Minister will either accept the amendment or be able to provide an assurance that giving priority to subsection (1) over subsection (2) in Clause 1 applies equally to the Competition Commission in Clause 30 as to the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for explaining the concerns that his amendments seek to address. However, I believe that the Bill already takes those concerns into account. The proposed appeals process has been carefully designed to ensure that where an appeal is brought, ordinarily for it to succeed, the appeal body should consider whether it is in passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services. It is our aim to have in place an appeals process that facilitates transparency and a timely manner of resolution of appeals, and that permission to appeal should be granted only where appropriate. However, we do not wish to stop those whose interests are materially affected from appealing. In meetings with airlines and airport bodies, my officials have sought to assure parties of this.
Clauses 24(5)(b) and 25(5)(b) as currently drafted already ensure that permission to appeal a licence condition or licence modification would be refused if the appeal did not have a reasonable prospect of success. Where an appeal had a reasonable prospect of success, it would be unjust and wrong in principle to refuse permission. In answer to the important question put by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I refer the Committee to Clause 30, which contains provisions stating that the Competition Commission “must have regard” to the same duties as the CAA in the discharge of stated functions. Included in these is the determination for permission to appeal under Clauses 24 and 25.
The Bill as drafted empowers the Competition Commission to refuse to grant permission to appeal so as to avoid parties bringing an appeal as a “spoiling” tactic. Nor can appeals be used as a delaying tactic. The default position is that the CAA’s licence condition or modification comes into effect while the appeal is being heard. Therefore, I do not believe that the inclusion of a further subsection in Clauses 24 and 25, as suggested by the noble Lord, would add anything of further substance to the Bill.
In the light of those assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
Before I do so, while I think that the noble Earl has probably given me the assurances that I seek, perhaps I may ask him again directly whether he is saying clearly that, under the terms of Clause 30 where it states—as I indicated and the noble Earl has repeated—that subsections (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 1 apply to the carrying out by the Competition Commission of its functions, which include determining appeals brought under the two clauses that we are talking about, in carrying out those functions the Competition Commission is bound in the same way under Clause 1(1) and (2) as the Civil Aviation Authority is itself. Will it have the same general duty in respect of determining whether those appeals should be heard? In other words, it is to give priority—and see as its primary duty as the Competition Commission—to making the decision to furthering,
“the interests of the users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”,
thus ensuring that that duty overrides the duty to promote competition in the provision of airport operation services. I think that that is what the Minister said to me, but I should be grateful if he could confirm that that is the case.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Competition Commission must have regard to the CAA’s general duty under Clause 30, as per the set of amendments accepted earlier today. We do not believe that it would be sustainable for the Competition Commission to promote competition where to do so would be inimical to the interests of users of air transport services, as described in Clause 1(1).
Lord Rosser
I do not seek to play with words; I am just anxious to be clear. The Minister said that the Competition Commission must “have regard”. Does that mean that its general duty in hearing these appeals is the same as the CAA’s general duty under Clause 1, which states that its primary and overriding responsibility in determining whether those appeals should be heard is to,
“further the interests of users of air transport services”,
rather than, where there is a conflict, to promote competition? I do not know whether we are playing with words over “have regard to”. In the Minister’s view, does that mean that the Competition Commission is bound in the same way as the CAA is in its general duty under Clause 1(1) and (2)?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the short answer to the noble Lord’s question is yes.
Lord Rosser
In that case, since the Minister’s very specific answer makes it clear that the Competition Commission has the duty in the same way as the CAA has the duty under Clause 1(1) and (2), I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser
The amendment relates to Clause 29, which deals with appeals determined by the Competition Commission under Clauses 24 and 25, which we have just discussed. Clause 29 states:
“A determination made by the Competition Commission … must be contained in an order”.
Later, it states that the Civil Aviation Authority,
“must take such steps as it considers requisite for it to comply with the order”.
It then goes on to say:
“The steps must be taken … if a time is specified in the order or is to be determined in accordance with the order, within that time, and … otherwise, within a reasonable time”.
The effect of the amendment would be to remove “within a reasonable time” and insert,
“within the period of 24 weeks beginning with the day on which the Competition Commission published the relevant order”.
This is a probing amendment, which seeks to find out what the Government mean by “within a reasonable time” and how they believe those words should be interpreted. Do they mean more or less than 24 weeks and, if it could be more than 24 weeks, will the Minister give some examples of where it might be reasonable for the Civil Aviation Authority to take longer than 24 weeks to comply with an order made by the Competition Commission when no specific timescale is laid down by it? It would also be helpful if the Minister could say who will be responsible for deciding whether the Civil Aviation Authority has taken steps to comply with an order within a reasonable time. Will it be the Civil Aviation Authority itself, the Competition Commission, the Secretary of State, the courts or some other individual or body?
As I say, this is a probing amendment. I hope I have explained the motive for tabling it and the issue that we hope the noble Earl will address. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the amendment seeks to amend subsection (7)(b) of Clause 29. The clause contains provisions relating to the publication of, and other matters connected to, the determination of appeals.
The current drafting provides that the CAA must take steps to comply with the appeal determination within any time period specified in the order. When none is specified, it must do so within a reasonable time. I am unable to support the amendment for two reasons. First, we do not think that it is necessary. Under subsection (7)(a) of the clause, the Competition Commission may specify a time limit in the order. We would expect it to do so if and whenever appropriate. Why would it not do so? Secondly, in circumstances where it is not appropriate to specify a period, it will be necessary to afford the CAA a reasonable time within which to comply with the order. What will comprise a reasonable time depends upon the context. There may be cases where action should be taken in fewer than 24 weeks and others where it is not reasonable to expect the CAA to take action within that period.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me to give examples. I do not have any to hand but there may, I suggest, be a requirement to provide IT facilities or some capability that might require the CAA to procure something. It simply would not have time to take the necessary procurement action, although it might have every intention of doing so and perhaps give assurances that it would do so.
Against this background, to set an arbitrary time limit of 24 weeks is not appropriate and may cause injustice. Therefore, it is prudent to retain the flexibility that subsection (7)(b) provides the CAA. This flexibility is consistent with our wish for the CAA to be an efficient regulator but to allow it appropriate periods of time to comply with orders. I hope that in the light of my explanation the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not a lawyer but I do not have any difficulty in understanding the provisions. I do not understand why the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal would not set a time limit if it were appropriate to do so. If it were inappropriate—the CAA might have said that it was already complying and had no intention of stopping complying—it would be totally unnecessary to impose a time limit. However, I would expect the Competition Commission to impose a time limit if it were desirable.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis for the points he made. Obviously it is my intention to withdraw the amendment since it is probing in nature, but will the Minister respond to the other point I made about who will determine whether it has been done within a reasonable time? The clause provides that it should be done “within a reasonable time” if no time limit is set. Who makes the decision as to whether it has been done within a reasonable time?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that question, but I imagine that if it was not done within a reasonable time, there would be a mechanism for the appellant to go back to the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal. However, if I have got that wrong, obviously I will write to the noble Lord.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the terms “a reasonable time” and “a reasonable person” are frequently found in legislation. The noble Lord is absolutely right.
Lord Rosser
I am happy to leave this in the context that if the Minister finds that the response he has given to me on who will determine whether it has been done within a reasonable time is not the position, he will write to say that. As I say, it is a probing amendment to try to find out more about the Government’s intentions so far as the definition of “within a reasonable time” is concerned, and what kind of cases might come within that category rather than in subsection (7)(a), which provides that,
“if a time is specified in the order”.
I thank the noble Earl for his response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
“(11A) An order under this Part is to be made by statutory instrument.
(11B) A statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (11) must not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.
(11C) Subsection (11B) does not apply where an order made under subsection (11) substitutes a greater sum for the sum specified in subsection (4)(a) to take into account an increase in the general level of prices, in which case it is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”
Lord Rosser
My Lords, the amendment addresses a recommendation from the Delegated Powers Committee. Paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 enables the Secretary of State to increase by negative order the £1 million threshold specified in sub-paragraph (4)(a) of Schedule 8 as the amount of annual turnover above which an airport operator is eligible for certification by the Civil Aviation Authority as a relevant airport operator.
When the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee looked at the Bill, it apparently had in front of it a memorandum from the Department for Transport, which the department had prepared for the committee, explaining the delegated powers in the Bill. The report on the Bill that we now have from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee states that paragraph 64 of the memorandum—which must be the memorandum from the Department for Transport—explains that the purpose of the power in Schedule 8 to increase the £1 million threshold,
“is to enable the amount to be increased, for example to take account of any inflation”.
The Delegated Powers Committee said:
“If it is the Government’s intention that the purpose of the power … is to enable the Secretary of State by order to increase the threshold in line with inflation, this should be specified on the face of the Bill, in which case the negative procedure is appropriate. But if the threshold is to be increased for other reasons, the affirmative procedure should apply”.
My amendment seeks to specify that the Secretary of State can increase the threshold figure only by the affirmative resolution procedure unless the increase is made to keep in line with inflation, in which case the negative resolution procedure will be used.
I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment, which, unless we have misunderstood it, seeks to put into the Bill the views that the Delegated Powers Committee expressed in its report. Although the memorandum from the Department for Transport indicated that it would enable the amount to be increased to take account of any inflation, in which case the negative procedure would be appropriate, clearly if the Government were going to do rather more than simply seek to increase the figure in line with inflation, I would share the view of the Delegated Powers Committee that the affirmative procedure should apply. The purpose of the amendment is to seek to achieve that objective. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for tabling the amendment. An amendment of this kind would address a recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its helpful report on the Bill, which was published four days before the start of Grand Committee. I have no complaint, but we will need a little more time to determine which way to go. However, I agree with the general aim of the amendment and have much sympathy with it.
The current drafting of the amendment is not technically correct. It would need alternative drafting to make a consequential amendment to the Airports Act 1986, where the provisions are to be inserted. I therefore wish to consider the matter further, with the intention of bringing forward a government amendment on Report. However, I do not anticipate having any difficulty with accepting the advice of the DPRRC. I hope that this reassures your Lordships that my intention is for a government amendment to be brought forward on this, in order to respond effectively to the DPRRC recommendation that if the purpose of the order provided for in sub-paragraph (11) of paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 is to ensure that the threshold can be increased for reasons other than inflation, the current negative procedure should be amended to an affirmative procedure to give Parliament greater scrutiny. With this assurance, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for that very helpful reply. I fully accept that the amendment might not be worded in the appropriate manner. It appears from what he said that he intends to take the matter away with a view to producing an amendment that is in the right place in the Bill and says the right things to achieve the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Rosser Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser
This amendment and Amendment 13 relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of State’s general duty.
Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill,
“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.
Subsection (2) goes on to say that:
“The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.
This amendment adds to the end of that,
“but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”.
In the absence of any definition of what “where appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) that promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services will further the interests of users of air transport services. Promoting competition does not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or achieve both objectives.
The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement to promote competition,
“by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”,
does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority considers that to do so would conflict with its primary responsibility of furthering,
“the interests of users of air transport services”.
It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers would promote competition when to do so would conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility to further the interests of air transport services, as set out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the providers of airport operation services. That would defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in subsection (1).
I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out its function in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe that promoting competition cannot not be in the interests of users of air transport services, which would be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to decide that it will not promote competition in the provision of airport operation services because to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of air transport services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a detailed explanation of what the words “where appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
I have sympathy with my noble friend. However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes certain duties on an organisation—in this case the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and it is not only in this one, although it happens here too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble friend has pinpointed.
Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that,
“the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport operation services are met”.
There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought to do. It covers just about everything from whether the coffee machine works to whether you have good services in other more fundamental ways.
I wonder at times whether we are being clear with the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport operation services—means that it can say in certain circumstances that it does not think that a particular demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it received a legal challenge from someone or some organisation.
It is a general point but sometimes we are casual with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity issue.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his response and my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, for their contributions to the debate. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rather misunderstood the wording of the amendment or what I said. I did not seek to remove from subsection (2) the words that related acting in a way that promoted competition. The purpose of my amendment was to make sure that there could not be a conflict between subsections (1) and (2) by making sure that if there was a conflict, subsection (1) would prevail. That was designed so that activities would be carried out in a way that would be beneficial to the users of air transport services.
In his response, the Minister has taken one of the lines that I had suggested he might take in the contribution I made—namely, that he has argued that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) already achieve the objective that I sought to achieve with my amendment. In other words, that if it is considered that there is a conflict between subsections (1) and (2), then—as I understand it from what the Minister has said—the Civil Aviation Authority, using the words “where appropriate”, would be able to argue that subsection (1) took priority, because that is the primary responsibility. If I have understood the Minister correctly—and what he said as to how this should be interpreted is now on the record—then I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this is an opportunity to debate a rather more mundane amendment compared with the ones we have just been discussing. This amendment and Amendment 14 in the group delete the references in Clause 1(4)(b) and Clause 2(5)(b) to the principle in the general duties of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State respectively that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
Clause 1(4)(a) and Clause 2(5)(a) both state that,
“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.
It is not entirely clear why either Clause 1(4)(b) or Clause 2(5)(b) is needed. Under subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a), regulatory activities should be carried out in a way that is proportionate, but surely it would not be proportionate if those regulatory activities were targeted at cases in which action was not needed. To do so would surely not be proportionate and would therefore be outside the terms of subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a). If the Minister is not inclined to accept my point that the subsection that this amendment deletes is unnecessary, it would be helpful if he could indicate why and also give some examples of regulatory activities that would be proportionate even though they were being targeted at cases where action was not needed. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
Yes. However, we are talking about the principle of regulation that you do not do things that are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If there is not a problem, you leave it alone.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its mind to these matters and considers them, it will, prima facie, have complied with the obligation.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate.
The Minister said that he will look at Hansard to see what point I was making. To reiterate, the question I am raising is: what is the necessity for the two paragraphs that my amendment seeks to delete? Paragraph (b) states that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
That comes after paragraph (a), which states that,
“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.
I appreciate that the Minister has said that he will look at the question and respond but, to reiterate the question that I asked, how can something be proportionate if it is a regulatory activity targeted at a case in which action is not needed? Surely, by definition, if regulatory action is not needed and you take regulatory action, that cannot be proportionate.
I am happy to leave it in the context that the Minister will look at the point I have raised and respond to me. I would be grateful for that. I am asking a genuine question. We are all interested in making sure that there is no unnecessary verbiage in legislation, which is the point I am making about the two paragraphs that the amendment proposes should be deleted. However, in the context that the Minister will look at the issue and write to me, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Rosser Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate on a Bill that, as my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh said, we broadly welcome and support, despite the lack of consolidation to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, referred with some feeling. A considerable part of the Bill was drafted by the previous Labour Government, including important reforms to the aviation industry’s regulatory regime. The reforms cover the legislative framework for the economic regulation of airports and for the Civil Aviation Authority, and provide a primary duty to further the interests of passengers and freight owners. The Bill provides also for the transfer of certain aviation security functions from the Secretary of State for Transport to the Civil Aviation Authority, and the widening of the Secretary of State’s powers so that holidays sold by airlines or arranged on an “agent for the consumer” basis can be included in the Air Travel Organisers’ Licence scheme in future.
On the other side of the coin, environmental protection measures, which were in the original draft Bill, have now been excluded. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Davies of Stamford and Lord Soley, referred to airport capacity and the position of Heathrow. There is no doubt that the Minister will wish to respond to this point, and to my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham, who raised the question of the continuing lack of a government aviation policy.
On the issue of security regulation and the transfer of certain operational aviation security functions to the Civil Aviation Authority, there must be a suspicion, as my noble friends Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Clinton-Davis said, in the current climate in which the Government have chosen to operate that it is the Secretary of State’s spending review rather than security considerations that will drive the change. The proposed change splits policy and operational matters. The Minister will need to explain how this will improve a security regime that has been in operation successfully since the tragic Lockerbie bombing, and how the proposed significant change in aviation security policy to an outcome-focused, risk-based approach from the current “direct and inspect” policy will operate in practice.
We shall need to know also what parliamentary scrutiny the new regime will receive, not least in order that the Secretary of State’s claim that the security policy changes will not in any way jeopardise what she accepts are the current high levels of security can be tested and checked. There is a risk that staff with considerable expertise in the security field will be lost to the service as a result of the proposed transfer of responsibilities and the uncertainty and upheaval that that will create.
The Government have said that they are keen that as many employees as possible stay in post when their jobs transfer to the Civil Aviation Authority, taking their skills and experience with them. What is the latest position on this issue? Will staff retain their current entitlements on pay, conditions, pensions and redundancy agreements, or should staff be concerned that the ideas of that expert government adviser on human relations, Mr Beecroft, may be implemented and the current arrangements on protecting existing terms and conditions of employment for staff transferring weakened? What assurances can the Minister give on this point?
My noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton referred to the importance of addressing environmental considerations. The environmental protection measures that were in the original draft Bill are not in the Bill we are now discussing, as my noble friend Lord Simon and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, have also pointed out. Perhaps this reflects the Government’s rapidly declining commitment to such issues. There is no longer a clear duty on the Civil Aviation Authority in terms of economic regulation to have regard to the airport operators’ compliance with environmental and planning considerations and law. Without this, airports may well be reluctant to invest in improving environmental performance. As other economic regulators have to take account of the environment, the Government will have to explain why they have not placed such a duty on the Civil Aviation Authority.
There is a case for ticketing to show the environmental impact of different modes of travel to help passengers make decisions, if they so wish, on which form of transport to use based on the environmental impact of travelling by air, by rail or by coach. Giving passengers better information on different modes of transport and what emissions are generated by journeys would provide the opportunity to make more environmentally friendly choices when travelling.
There should be tougher targets for reducing CO2 emissions as the industry’s contribution to addressing climate change. The Government have declined to reaffirm even the target we agreed with industry and government. The Bill should lay down a duty for the Civil Aviation Authority to work with the Secretary of State, the Committee on Climate Change, NATS and air transport service providers to meet the UK’s carbon reduction targets.
The aviation industry also needs to reflect on whether it has given environmental considerations the public prominence they deserve. The image that the industry has in some eyes—fairly or unfairly—is of one that pays little regard to such considerations and the actual and potential adverse impacts they have on the public as the industry campaigns for more airport capacity and increasing numbers of flights. Being seen publicly to give environmental issues and concerns a high priority ought to be regarded as hard commercial sense by the industry, as one reason for the degree of opposition to increasing airport capacity and numbers of flights is no doubt a feeling—once again, justified or unjustified—that addressing the environmental consequences of such developments and the impact on the quality of life of those most affected is not a major concern of the industry and its leadership.
On the passenger experience, we agree with the Transport Select Committee in the other place and its concerns about the lack of any requirement to publish passenger welfare plans. My noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham reminded us that the experience faced by many passengers during the severe winter weather of 2010-11 demonstrated the need for the sector to improve its performance in relation to passenger welfare. The Bill does not appear to be robust in relation to the specific duties on airports in relation to passenger welfare and there needs to be a requirement for airports and the Civil Aviation Authority to give greater help to passengers stranded at airports. Putting this in the Bill, rather than leaving it to the regulator to decide whether to do it, would give a clear indication to the regulator that the Government expect this to be looked at as a key area.
We also agree with the Transport Select Committee in the other place that airport licences should be structured so as to address key areas of passenger satisfaction. The Civil Aviation Authority should also be a source of reliable information to passengers on issues that have a considerable impact on the quality and level of service to passengers at airports. There has been much publicity recently, for example, over queuing times at Heathrow Airport, and arguments and disagreements between the airport and the Immigration Service over how long people are having to queue. The Civil Aviation Authority should be able to play an important role here in collating the evidence and publishing it. What steps are the Minister’s department and the Home Office taking to work together more effectively to deal with the queues at immigration and passport control?
Passengers with disabilities and reduced mobility also need appropriate assistance at airports, especially when passing through security. The Government made a decision to abolish the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee which provided a channel for the advice and experiences of disabled people to be given on improving transport provision. Such advice still needs to be fed-in to airports and policy-makers. The Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State should have a duty to produce perhaps an annual report on the service offered to disabled people at airports and by air transport providers and the extent to which such a service meets the relevant guidelines and European legislation already in place.
However, it is not only at airports that at times passengers may not always feel that they are being treated as though they were valued customers. Another area of concern is over ticket prices and surcharges and the extent to which they are as clear and transparent as they might be. A recent survey, published last month in a national newspaper, showed that one well-known budget airline’s high-season rate for a 20 kilogram bag to go into the hold was £70 return, and if you did not book on-line but turned up at the airport with your bag the fee was £130 one way. The survey of budget airlines’ add-on charges showed that it could cost as much as £110 to change the name on a ticket and £120 because your bag weighed three kilograms over the limit. Add-on charges apply to a multitude of things, covering bags, credit card fees, name change fees, flight change fees and fees for taking on special items such as golf clubs.
When the survey tested costs for a one week return flight to Malaga for one person taking a 20 kilogram bag and paying by credit card, it found add-on costs ranging from £34.95 to £82 depending on the low-cost airline operator. One would have thought that this was an area in which the Civil Aviation Authority could play a role in the interests of passengers and in ensuring fairness and transparency.
Under the Bill, the Civil Aviation Authority remains outside the remit of the National Audit Office, despite it being in receipt of public money and being given important new functions. It should be subject to proper scrutiny and it should also have a duty of efficiency, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, and my noble friend Lord Solely, said, a duty which, likewise, is not provided for in the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham said, we will want to probe why the Government feel that the arrangements they have proposed will be adequate and appropriate and an improvement on what we are proposing.
We have a number of issues with the Bill that we will wish to pursue in Committee and, in some instances, also on Report depending on the responses we receive to the points we shall be raising. The Bill lays down a primary duty to further the interests of passengers. While we recognise the progress that the Bill represents, we do not consider that as much has been done in the Bill in this regard as could and should have been. However, in overall terms, we support the Bill, much of which was initially drafted by the previous Government. We shall be seeking in our detailed consideration of the Bill to make it even better.
People Trafficking
Lord Rosser Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, last month the Government introduced amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill to meet some requirements of the recent EU directive on human trafficking. However, they do not yet appear to be addressing the disappearance from the system of child victims of trafficking in this country. Some 32 per cent of identified child victims of trafficking went missing from care between 2007 and early 2010.
Since Articles 12 and 13 of the EU directive state that signatories must provide assistance, support and protection for child victims of trafficking, will the Minister say on what basis, and in the light of what consultations with which organisations, the Government have decided that the UK currently complies with those two articles? What is the Government’s response to calls by charities such as CARE and ECPAT UK for the introduction of a system of guardianship for child victims of trafficking?
The directive requires that the UK establishes a national rapporteur to independently monitor the implementation of the directive. Is it the Government’s intention to give this responsibility to an individual or a committee independent of government in order to ensure both effective oversight of the implementation of government policy on trafficking and accountability?
The Government have indicated that they believe parts of the directive can be implemented in full through secondary legislation and through operational measures and routes. Not everyone will share the Government’s view on that point, but we will wait to see the provisions of any such secondary legislation.
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, for securing this debate. We welcome the progress that has been made in combating human trafficking, but it is clear that there is still much to do.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on securing a debate on this important matter and I thank him for raising it today with his usual skill and measured tone. I broadly accept your Lordships’ analysis of the situation. The Government certainly share the noble and right reverend Lord’s forcefully put view that human trafficking is a horrendous crime that needs to be addressed in a systematic and co-ordinated way. Right at the top of that process is my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and I can assure noble Lords that she takes this matter very seriously.
As noble Lords have rightly observed, estimating the numbers of adults and children trafficked into and within the UK is difficult owing to the hidden nature of this criminal activity, but through the national referral mechanism we are starting to gain some valuable data about the scale of the problem. We know how many victims are referred. What we do not know is how many trafficking operations were successfully deterred or disrupted by the policies of this Government and the previous Government. However, for those victims we do indentify, our systems are now much more able to support them, according to their individual needs. I do not accept that Ministers underestimate the scale of the problem just because we cannot accurately measure it.
In answer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, I agree that this is a moral issue. I am sure that Ministers would still not be happy even if we had reduced the numbers to only 100 people being trafficked. We would not stop until we could get it to almost zero. I assure the House that this Government continue to use all resources at their disposal to identify, prosecute and convict traffickers, often working with other countries to bring the perpetrators of this crime to justice.
The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, talked about the problem of forced labour within the UK. I can assure her that the Government are well aware of that problem.
We continue to review our approach to trafficking to ensure that we remain one step ahead of those seeking to exploit our borders. My noble friend Lady Jenkin raised the problem of men being trafficked out of the UK to places such as foreign construction sites. I was not personally aware of this but I will discuss it with my officials afterwards.
Free movement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland continues to be of immense importance to the economic, social and cultural well-being of both countries. I can assure noble Lords that the UK and Irish Governments are working in partnership to prevent abuse of the common travel area by strengthening its external border while preserving the right of free movement within it for those who are lawfully present. That is enforced by the UK Border Agency and the police carrying out intelligence-led operations to target the potential abuse of the CTA and to identify those who would otherwise seek to avoid UK controls.
Many noble Lords have expressed concerns about the vulnerability of children seeking to travel on Eurostar. Children and any accompanying adults looking to travel to the UK by Eurostar are routinely interviewed at our juxtaposed controls in France and Belgium. Officers seek to establish the relationship between children and the adults who are accompanying them or meeting them on arrival in the UK before allowing them to leave the juxtaposed border control. If trafficking is suspected, they are immediately reported to the appropriate French or Belgian authorities.
The UK Border Agency closely monitors all trains arriving from Brussels and Lille and carries out detailed checks on passengers where it is suspected that a passenger has evaded the juxtaposed controls. Full ticket controls are routinely mounted at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford upon notification of a potential passenger who is seeking to arrive in the UK with a ticket to Lille. To supplement this, multi-agency child safeguarding periodic monitoring exercises advised by Paladin are also conducted at St Pancras. We are currently working closely with our Belgian counterparts and Eurostar to resolve the underlying issues.
My noble friend Lady Doocey raised the problem of unaccompanied children. The travel documentation and letter of consent for all unaccompanied children on Eurostar services are examined by border force officers at the controls. It is important to understand that the form signed by the parent or guardian is not designed to be a reliable check in itself; rather, it is the starting point for any inquiries that might be made by the authorities as they see fit. My noble friend also asked me to give undertakings as regards this being an operational matter for Eurostar. Officers regularly contact the parents or guardians of unaccompanied children to verify the letter of consent for travel to the UK. If there is any cause for concern on the authenticity of the consent of the parent or guardian or about the reception arrangements in the UK, officers will interview the parent or guardian. If doubts persist after all appropriate checks have been undertaken, the UK Border Agency may prevent the child travelling to the UK unaccompanied. For those children who do travel, staff at St Pancras identify unaccompanied children as they disembark and escort them to the concourse to ensure that the sponsor is present and is known to the child.
However, in my capacity as government spokesman for DfT matters in your Lordships' House, I have asked my officials to seek a visit by me to Eurostar at St Pancras. I would expect to include an examination of British Transport Police operations in that visit. I am sure that as a high-profile and responsible operator, Eurostar will be keen to show me first hand how it deals with the problems which my noble friend has identified.
Many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are concerned that we might not be compliant with the EU directive because we do not appear to have a national rapporteur. However, the UK is already compliant with this measure through equivalent mechanisms in the form of the UK Human Trafficking Centre as the central repository for data and the interdepartmental ministerial group for oversight. I believe that this meets the need identified by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. This equivalent mechanism is broadly in line with practice among our EU neighbours. We are aware of only two countries within the EU that have an independent national rapporteur on human trafficking—the Netherlands and Finland—and I am not convinced that they each operate in the same way. Several noble Lords have referred to the interdepartmental ministerial group. We recognise the need to work across government and we will consider how to strengthen the group to fulfil the national rapporteur role in the coming months. It is important to understand that the EU directive on national rapporteurs requires a national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism to assess trends in human trafficking and activities on anti-trafficking, and to work with civil society organisations and to report. It does not require the role to be independent.
Responsibility for the care, protection and accommodation of child trafficking victims falls within the designated responsibilities of local authorities for safeguarding and promoting the welfare of all children under the provisions of the 1989 and 2004 Children Acts. To support local authorities, we recently revised practice guidance on safeguarding trafficked children with the Department for Education, which will aid practitioners in identification and safeguarding of child victims of this horrible crime. Once a child is placed in care, a care plan is drawn up by their allocated social worker bringing together a range of information and support. The social worker will assess suitable accommodation, educational support and other services based on need. This care plan is regularly reviewed by an independent reviewing officer to ensure that the child’s needs are being met. This will include stability, safety and emotional well-being. IROs are also able to assist the child in obtaining legal advice. My noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich talked about his important amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Henley is looking forward to responding in due course. New guidance for IROs makes it clear that every child has the right to be supported by an advocate. The advocate must accurately represent the child’s wishes and feelings, irrespective of personal views on the child’s best interests.
Another key area is that of missing trafficked children, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, among others. Your Lordships should not underestimate the progress the Government have made on this. The first CEOP scoping report on this issue, published in 2007, found a shocking 55 per cent of trafficked children missing from their care placement, but with effective work at a local level to tackle this issue, the most recent CEOP strategic assessment showed that this figure had been reduced to 18 per cent. Local authorities such as Hillingdon, Hertfordshire and Harrow are leading the way with proactive, multi-agency partnerships to identify and safeguard trafficked children from going missing from care. Simple changes to the way they handle, for instance, a child’s access to accommodation front doors, mobile phones and other issues have allowed them to make great progress in reducing the number of children going missing. The national picture is still not good enough but the figures are undeniably heading in the right direction. The new human trafficking strategy commits us to working to raise awareness of these issues locally to ensure in all areas where there is evidence that a child has been trafficked, care planning and activities to support the child must minimise the risk of traffickers reinvolving the child in exploitative activities.
As usual, where I have not been able to respond fully to noble Lords’ substantive points, I will, of course, write. In summary, I can assure the House that this Government will lead the fight with our partners at all levels to ensure that our response to this crime remains an effective deterrent to drive down the number and level of people affected.
Lord Rosser
As the Minister is closing his comments, in the light of what he said about the Government’s determination to fight human trafficking—I am sure that is the case—is it the Government’s view that sentences for human trafficking are appropriate, bearing in mind that the average determinate custodial sentence for drug trafficking appears to be some 50 per cent higher than that for human trafficking?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is a detailed question on which I shall have to write to the noble Lord. An interesting problem is that it can be very difficult to secure prosecutions for trafficking. Often we see criminals being prosecuted for offences other than trafficking because it is easier to secure the evidence. I neglected to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about a possible gap in the legislation in Northern Ireland. I can assure him that we have not revoked anything and that there will be no gaps.
Rail: Great Western Passenger Franchise
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, an issue raised by train operators is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, if they want to increase rolling stock capacity to meet extra demand, they have to secure the approval of the Department for Transport either to use existing rolling stock more intensively or to lease additional rolling stock from the leasing companies. The approval of the Department for Transport is also required before train operators can speed up scheduled services following improvements to the infrastructure. Will the Government make provision in the new Great Western passenger franchise and in existing and other new franchises to enable the train operator to make such changes in future, subject to the other terms of the franchise remaining the same, without having to go through the, at times, time-consuming and lengthy procedure for obtaining prior approval from the Department for Transport?
Earl Attlee
I think that the noble Lord broadly describes some of the difficulties of franchising. We will have to see what the result of the consultation is.
Aviation: UK Civil Aviation
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, I also extend my thanks to my noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen for securing this all too brief debate on the future of our civil aviation industry, a subject which has been thrust back into the limelight by the Government’s announcement of a consultation looking at options for maintaining the UK’s aviation hub status, including the possibility of a major new hub airport in the Thames estuary.
It is an interesting announcement, since, assuming its birth was not related to the forthcoming London mayoral election campaign, it represents a considerable potential U-turn from previous statements of no new runways at any of the three largest airports in London and the south-east, and a lack of enthusiasm for an airport in the Thames estuary. The Government’s failure to set out a strategy for aviation which addresses capacity issues, among other things, is now putting jobs and growth at risk. The Government’s call for airports to be “better not bigger” is a slogan, not a policy. The Government have no established policy around the future of the UK’s civil aviation sector beyond a statement in the coalition agreement that the Government will refuse permission for new runways to be built at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. Perhaps the Minister could tell us when he responds whether, in the light of the consultation just announced, that is still the Government’s policy or not.
What we need is a strategy that works for the south-east as well as for our network of regional airports which are so crucial to our economy. The Government should have accepted our offer to work together on a cross-party basis to agree a long-term strategy for aviation. Setting an agreed long-term strategic direction for aviation is vital, particularly bearing in mind that our hub airport, Heathrow, is already working to virtually maximum capacity, that we are falling further behind our EU competitors, passenger numbers are projected to grow significantly, the industry needs to be able to plan with certainty for the future—not least to deliver investment to provide additional capacity—and the UK has 11 per cent of Europe’s airspace and 25 per cent of its traffic.
Any new capacity must go hand in hand with tougher targets on reducing CO2 emissions from aviation to tackle the industry’s contribution to climate change. The industry can be proud of the huge advances that have been made in this direction already. However, with the significant growth in air passenger numbers forecast, we will not achieve, by 2050, the broader 80 per cent cut in emissions on 1990 levels to which we committed in the Climate Change Act 2008 without aviation playing a greater role. Future aviation growth must, we believe, go hand in hand with a greater cut in aviation emissions than we agreed, when in government, of reducing to below 2005 levels by 2050, a target to which the present Government have not affirmed their commitment. The industry’s own sustainable aviation road map makes clear that, by 2050, it is possible to get absolute levels of emissions down to levels seen at the turn of the century, even as passenger numbers are projected to grow very significantly, so there seems to be a measure of agreement that it is possible to do more.
The aviation industry contributes more than £11 billion to the UK’s gross domestic product. It supports up to 200,000 jobs directly and up to 600,000 indirectly across the UK. It is deeply worrying to the industry and the business world, among others, that while we know what the Government are against, there is still no credible strategy for aviation even on the horizon, which sets out the approach that this Government favour.
Earl Attlee
Secondly, this Government have an open mind, which is the right way to go into a consultation. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, effectively asked whether we are going to do a U-turn on Stansted. The commitment in the coalition agreement still stands.
Lord Rosser
In the light of what he said about the Government having an open mind, will the noble Earl confirm that the previous government statements about no new runways at any of the three largest airports in London and the south-east no longer stand?
Earl Attlee
Definitely not, my Lords. The noble Lords knows perfectly well that that is in the coalition agreement and will stay.
The noble Lord, Lord Monks, asked me what more can be done to support industry and its people. The Government recognise the value that the aviation industry brings through supporting a network of highly skilled workers that adds value to the economy. The sector is at the forefront of technological progress, delivering R&D projects and large-scale investments that drive industry and the economy forwards. It is important that the trade union sector fully engages in the consultation process. The noble Lord also touched on the important issue of pilot fatigue. On the matter of flight-time limitations, we will support the proposed requirements only if the Civil Aviation Authority determines that they provide an appropriate level of protection against crew fatigue.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, touched on the 76,000 employees at Heathrow, plus those in related service industries. We have to take their position into consideration as well. The noble Lord also talked about biofuels. The Government are clear that sustainable biofuels have a role to play in reducing CO2 emissions from transport, particularly in sectors such as aviation where there are limited alternatives to fossil fuels. In recent years, the aviation industry has conducted research and carried out flight tests to help provide information on different fuels. This work has demonstrated that biofuels for aviation are technically feasible. However, there are currently a range of barriers to introducing biofuels, including sustainability, scalability of the feed stocks and commercial viability. The Government will continue to work with European partners, the wider international community and industry to explore how to bring about a significant increase in the use of biofuels in aviation. Advanced biofuels, such as those derived from algae, when commercialised, could offer particular advantages, such as reduced land use impact.
On UK connectivity with China, the Government recognise the importance of developing and maintaining good links between the UK and emerging economies. That is why this March we are calling for evidence on options for maintaining the UK's hub status. Heathrow currently has fewer scheduled flights to mainland China than Paris or Frankfurt, but more than Amsterdam. However, if flights from Heathrow to Hong Kong are included, there are more flights from Heathrow to China than from any other EU hub. Hong Kong serves around 45 destinations on the Chinese mainland.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised the issue of connectivity with the regions, particularly Northern Ireland. The Government recognise the vital contribution that air connections make to regional economies and acknowledge Northern Ireland's concerns about the air service between Northern Ireland and Heathrow should BMI be sold to British Airways. However, airlines operate in a competitive commercial environment, and it is for individual airlines to determine the routes that they operate. The options for supporting regional air services to London are limited. Member states can impose public service obligations to protect air services to remote airports, which could permit slots to be ring-fenced. However, they can be imposed only between specific cities, not specific airports, a difficulty identified by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. We have written to the EU Commission on that point, but there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at UK airports. The noble Lord introduced the Airports (Amendment) Bill, which would provide for the protection of air services between Heathrow and the UK regions. The Government are considering in detail the measures included in the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Lea, got quite excited about a number of points. Although we are committed to not authorising additional runways at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, we are looking at our aviation policy framework with an open mind. The aviation industry is vital to our country. Our next step is to publish the draft aviation strategy and call in March for evidence on hub connectivity. With that strategy, we want to move away from the polarised opinions that have dominated discussion in the past and develop a broader consensus for change.
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Lord Rosser Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, our Amendment 43 in this group seeks to ban the use of fixed barriers by private parking operators unless they comply with new statutory rules on maximum parking charges and signage. The need for this amendment arises from the Government’s decision on Report in the Commons to introduce new subsection (3) into Clause 54, as has already been referred to, as a clarification in order to maintain the lawful use of fixed barriers in private car parks. However, the effect of that subsection appears to be also to reinstate mechanisms by which less principled operators will effectively be able to immobilise vehicles and prevent drivers from leaving without paying excessive or erroneous parking charges.
As Diana Johnson MP said during the debate in the other place,
“I am even more concerned that companies that wish to get round the law, operate in an intimidating way and issue excessive parking tickets will see this as an opportunity to go ahead. Under clause 54(3) putting down a barrier in effect immobilises a vehicle”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/10/11; col. 139.]
Subsection (3) risks creating a loophole that will see the return of the very same regime of rogue operators that the Bill is trying to eradicate. Our amendment seeks to ensure that only reputable operators are allowed to use the added measure of fixed barriers in order to ensure the on-the-spot payment of tickets. If not, they would have to pursue vehicle keepers through the DVLA as provided for by Schedule 4.
Reference has already been made to Schedule 4. Under it, landowners—that is, in this context, parking providers—may pursue vehicle keepers for unpaid parking charges through the DVLA, subject to certain conditions. Concerns have been expressed about that arrangement. Consumer groups, Citizens Advice and trading standards have pointed out that rogue ticketers, whose numbers may increase following any ban on clamping, will be able to access vehicle keepers’ highly sensitive information through the DVLA and pursue them for excessive or unfairly levied charges.
The present position is that existing regulations enable only those who provide parking in accordance with industry best practice to access details of vehicle keepers from the DVLA. Industry best practice is defined in the regulations as membership of an accredited trade association, of which the British Parking Association’s approved operator scheme is currently the only one. However, the concerns that have been expressed relate to the fact that adherence to best practice is equated with membership of the BPA. The BPA is a trade association and is not resourced or intended to enforce compliance. In addition, the BPA approved operator scheme is not independent since it is decided on by the membership—namely, the parking providers—and therefore does not guarantee fairness to consumers.
In her amendments, my noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town has raised an important issue, which was referred to at Second Reading when reference was made to what would happen in the event of a total ban on clamping if people found their driveways being used if they happened, as has been said today, to live near a railway station, a football stadium or perhaps some other major leisure centre, where this is a hazard that at least some of them seem to face. It is not clear, if there is to be a complete ban on clamping, exactly what their redress would be. There certainly would not seem to be much point in calling the police, since even if they felt moved to act in relation to a car on someone’s driveway, it is highly unlikely that they would regard the issue as a particular priority. I hope that the Minister will not dismiss my noble friend’s amendments but will seek to address an answer to the issues and concerns that she has raised.
We have also heard concerns raised about the impact on disabled drivers. Does the minister believe that the Government’s proposals have an impact on disabled drivers? In written evidence to the Public Bill Committee, the British Parking Association said that it was particularly concerned that the equality impact assessment assumes that there will be no impact. We have certainly heard during today’s debate of circumstances that will have an adverse impact and which appear to arise directly from the provisions in the Government’s Bill. I hope that the Minister will give a straight answer on those concerns.
We would support the establishment of an independent appeals process, but it must apply across the whole sector, not just in relation to the BPA. I assume that the Minister would have no objections to that, but no doubt he will be stating his position shortly.
I conclude by saying that in this very interesting debate a significant number of concerns have been raised and there is a degree of consensus, though not complete, from all sides of the House about the concerns that need to be addressed. Because I accept that there are no easy answers, I invite the Minister to consider whether he might convene discussions outside the Chamber with the interested parties—those who have contributed to the debate today—to talk about those concerns and see if any consensus can be reached on progress that might be made in addressing them.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, her Amendment 42 seeks to introduce a number of exemptions to the ban on vehicle immobilisation and towing. The amendment would allow wheel clamping and towing to continue on private land where the vehicle was unregistered in the United Kingdom, causing an obstruction or parked in a residential estate where parking was permitted only for residents or their guests, or the vehicle was adapted for towing—in other words, it was a trailer or a caravan. I understand why she and others seek these amendments, but I personally have received complaints about the activities of rogue clamping companies.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, we have Amendment 53 in this group. I shall attempt to be reasonably brief as many of the points were made in the previous debate. However, to recap, it is under Schedule 4 that landowners—that is, parking providers—may pursue vehicle keepers for unpaid parking charges through the DVLA, subject to certain conditions. As I said earlier, some concerns have been expressed about this arrangement, not least by consumers’ groups and Citizens Advice. I think that the Minister will find, for instance, that Citizens Advice Scotland has some examples of the adverse impact of the scheme as it applies there and it can give information on that.
The question of access to information is potentially of some concern. In evidence to the House of Commons Transport Committee last week, the Corporate Affairs Director of the DVLA said that if there were an allegation, for example, about damage or harm done through the use of a vehicle, the person alleging the harm would be given details of the keeper of the vehicle from whom they could make inquiries as to who was the operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged harm was done. When asked to whom this information would be given, the DVLA representative said that if they were in the private parking field, the companies would have to be members of the accredited trade association—that is, the British Parking Association’s approved operator scheme, which is the only approved operator scheme in the parking sector.
When it was then suggested that as long as an organisation joined the BPA, the DVLA would hand over information to it about the keeper of a vehicle, the DVLA said that it would, provided that it was convinced by the details of the request and the organisation was known to be a member of the approved operator scheme. However, as the Minister will know, recent media stories have claimed that the personal details of more than a million motorists were sold to private clamping companies by the DVLA in 2010, which suggests that maybe the safeguards against giving information to organisations or representatives of organisations who should not be entitled to know details of the keeper of a vehicle are not as strong as they should be.
Our amendment seeks to address the issue by requiring private parking providers to demonstrate adherence with industry best practice—that relates to all private parking providers—on issues such as signage display or maximum penalties to gain details of the vehicle keeper from the DVLA. The amendment also places a burden of responsibility on the DVLA to ensure that a keeper’s personal information is provided only to reputable parking providers by establishing a code of conduct on fair practice, including appropriate penalty charges and requirements for the display of notices in respect of parking of vehicles on the relevant land. I hope that the Minister will give careful consideration to the amendment which seeks to ensure that there is a code of practice and that it is an independent code of conduct that is operated and run not only in the interests of the parking providers but in the interests of those who use the parking facilities.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, all the amendments in this group seek to amend in their various ways the provisions on keeper liability in Schedule 4 to the Bill. Amendments 44 and 54, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas, set out a further set of conditions that the creditor must comply with to claim unpaid parking charges from the keeper of a vehicle. Unless the Committee appears to desire it, I do not propose to weary it by going through each one in detail, much as I would enjoy doing so.
Although the amendments are clearly well intentioned and designed to offer further safeguards to the motorist, I would hope to persuade my noble friend that they are in the most part either unnecessary or inappropriate. I say that because the amendments do not appear appropriate for trespass situations which the Bill also covers, and in relation to private car parks. The issues that the amendments address can be dealt with either through self-regulation within the industry, or they will be matters that may be considered by the independent appeals body that will be established before the provisions come into effect.
First and foremost, we do not consider that it is appropriate to add further conditions over and above those contained in the schedule for landowners who wish to take action against those who trespass on their property. In relation to non-trespass situations—private car parks—a number of the suggested conditions will be subject to the individual facts of a given case and would anyway be dealt with by the disputes arrangements, whether that was an internal scheme or through the independent appeals body. We have already made it clear that any notice to the driver or keeper of the vehicle intending to recover unpaid parking charges must set out what the appeals arrangements are. As such, we believe that the conditions that we have set out in the schedule adequately cover what would be expected of the creditor in seeking to recover unpaid parking charges. It will be more appropriate for the independent appeals body to hear disputes and review the evidence presented by either party rather than seeking to specify these matters in legislation beforehand.
In addition, consumer protection legislation already applies to parking contracts and there is the added safeguard that only those parking providers who are members of an accredited trade association will have access to DVLA vehicle keeper data and can therefore pursue keeper liability as part of their general enforcement arrangements. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who asked about the 1 million occasions when the DVLA data were accessed, an accredited trade association can get DVLA data. A high figure is representative of the high number of on-road offences in which keeper details were requested. It also covers private policing to, for example, supermarkets. The Government have made it clear to the parking industry that members of such accredited trade associations—in this case the British Parking Association’s Approved Operator Scheme—will need to sign up to a code of practice that will include an agreement to have disputes and complaints dealt with via an independent appeals body.
In a similar vein, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seeks further regulation in the form of a statutory code of conduct covering penalty charges and signage. Any creditor would have to demonstrate that they had complied with the code before being able to obtain keeper details from the DVLA. Again, this is an overregulatory approach that would apply to all private land, including to trespass situations. It is both inappropriate and unnecessary. As I mentioned, members of the British Parking Association's approved operator scheme already operate under a code of practice that provides guidance on both penalty charges and signage. The Bill also contains reserve powers to prescribe signage if this proves necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, touched on Scotland and the experience of Citizens Advice. I will follow it up and if the noble Lord could assist me with further details, it would be much appreciated.
The purpose of Schedule 4 is simply to strengthen the arrangements for the enforcement of unpaid parking charges as an alternative to wheel clamping once the ban has come into force. Schedule 4 covers all land not subject to statutory control, from private car parks to the front driveways of private properties. It would be neither sensible nor appropriate in these circumstances to introduce wide-ranging regulation that would seriously impinge on the ability of smaller landowners to control parking on their land. The self-regulatory approach for larger operators as a condition of membership of a government-accredited trade association is the right approach for larger private car park operators and their agents.
I turn to the government amendments. As I indicated, we will not commence the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 until an independent appeals body is in place. Government Amendments 48, 50 and 52 reinforce this point. They clarify the conditions that must be met when issuing a ticket to a driver or vehicle keeper for an unpaid parking charge by requiring that the ticket must include details both of any arrangements offered internally by the company, and any arrangements available by independent adjudication or arbitration. This reinforces and strengthens the Government's commitment that Schedule 4 will not commence until an independent appeals service is in place.
I will deal briefly with government Amendments 56 and 57. They make a small change to Schedule 4 following representations from the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association. I declare a small interest as I attended its 2005 annual dinner and found myself sitting next to a lady who appeared to be the girl of my dreams. I am pleased to say that she is now the Countess Attlee. The schedule excludes vehicle hire firms from keeper liability provisions provided certain conditions are fulfilled when vehicles are hired out. The association pointed out that the definition of a hire agreement that refers to hire periods not exceeding six months does not reflect modern vehicle rental arrangements, in which longer periods of hire are commonplace. We accepted this point and amended the definition of a hire agreement so that it covers hire periods of any duration.
In summing up, I assure your Lordships and the Committee that the Government are fully committed to monitoring the effect of the ban on wheel clamping and the associated keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4. If there is evidence that we need to take further measures when the new arrangements are in place, we will of course consider this. We do not believe that there will be any need, but if evidence shows that problems exist, we will act. However, there have been no problems of note with rogue ticketing in Scotland, where wheel clamping has been banned since 1992. Given this assurance, I hope that my noble friend Lord Lucas will withdraw his amendment and that he and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will support the government amendments.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I assume the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will respond. However, in view of the momentous news that the noble Earl gave us, perhaps we on these Benches may offer our sincere congratulations on what clearly was a memorable occasion.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, there can be no more romantic venue at which to meet one’s wife. I am very grateful for what my noble friend has said. To the extent that I have continuing questions, they will be swept up into the meeting already referred to. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Animals: Experimentation
Lord Rosser Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
My Lords, I also express my thanks to my noble friend Lord Wills for enabling us to discuss this important and, on some occasions, emotive issue. We are a nation of animal lovers, and if we believe, rightly or wrongly, that animals are suffering as a result of the deliberate actions of humans, including carrying out experiments on animals, we tend to react.
In the light of the revised EU directive governing animal research being adopted, the regulation of animal research in the United Kingdom is under review, as the directive must be transposed into UK law by November 2012, with the majority of the provisions of the revised directive implemented in UK legislation from 1 January 2013. As I understand it, the mandatory standards of care and accommodation will not have to be implemented until 1 January 2017.
It was of course an earlier European directive that led to the current regulations on animal research, which have statutory force under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. The 1986 Act states that animal research or testing procedures can take place only in research facilities that have been granted a certificate of designation, where the procedures are part of an approved programme that has been given a project licence, and where they are carried out by experienced and trained people who have a personal licence to undertake such activity.
The revised European directive appears to have been received with rather more enthusiasm by those who believe that our controls are too complex and strict than by those who are concerned that harmonisation on the basis of the revised directive could lead to a watering down of some of our standards on animal research and testing—to the detriment, not least, of the animals involved.
In his speech, my noble friend Lord Wills sought a number of assurances from the Government. Included among those were: an assurance, in the light of the financial cuts, that the Government will not reduce the number of Home Office inspectors or the number of inspections; an assurance that the ethical review process will not be abolished; and an assurance that the revised EU directive will not be allowed to weaken our existing standards and lead to an increase in animal suffering, including the cumulative severity of suffering. He also asked whether the Government had given consideration to amending Section 24 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act to increase transparency, and for an assurance that the Government is giving support for work on developing alternatives—in particular, to non-human primates—in research.
My noble friend referred to the Bateson review, which I believe was published in the summer, and its finding that, while in most cases the use of non-human primates was justifiable, in just under 10 per cent of cases there appeared to be no significant scientific, medical or social benefit. Among other things, the Bateson review proposed: that all applications for funding to use non-human primates should be subject to rigorous review; that there should be a full examination of the justification for choosing primates as the test species, including whether human subjects could be used as an alternative; and that the potential for using alternative approaches should be pursued. The review also stressed the ethical imperative that maximum benefit should be derived from experiments using primates and that all data should be shared, even if the results are negative, to prevent unnecessary duplication of work.
My noble friend also asked whether the Government would support the proposal in a European Commission consultation for a ban on the marketing of all cosmetics that have been tested on animals, wherever they have been produced. He also referred to the Government's own commitment to,
“work to reduce the use of animals in scientific research”,
and in effect asked what decisions had been taken, and were likely to be taken, towards fulfilling that pledge.
I am sure that the Minister in his reply will be seeking to respond to the many direct questions asked by my noble friend. This is not an easy issue and no one wants to pretend that it is. Many important advances to the benefit of mankind have been achieved as a result of experiments on animals, and no doubt further much-needed advances will be achieved in the future. There is, however, a natural revulsion against any inhumane treatment of animals and there is an objection to experiments being carried out if they appear to have little or no obvious benefit. There is also a feeling that advances in science and in knowledge should result in the need to use living animals less for research; that surely should continue to be an objective.
Changes in a European directive should not lead to any lowering of our standards covering the use of animals in research. Where our standards and procedures are higher than those called for in the directive, we should, as we are entitled to do, retain those higher standards. I hope that the Minister will be able to give some assurances on that point and on the other issues raised by my noble friend, on a subject matter which we all accept is not straightforward but which, if not addressed by government—any Government—in a humane and careful manner is likely to increase hostile feelings. If that happens on any significant scale, as my noble friend said, we could risk losing the consent of the public for the scientific and medical research being conducted using animals, with potentially valuable research being lost. No one would want us to end up in that position.
Railways: Brighton to London Line
Lord Rosser Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully accept that the Brighton line is running at capacity, but this particular scheme will do nothing to relieve the bottleneck. For instance, the path between Sevenoaks and Orpington is just twin track and there are no more train paths available at the peak period.
Lord Rosser
Nearly all line reopenings that have taken place have proved successful and have more than met projected passenger figures. Can the Minister say whether other lines are being considered for reopening? In particular, what is the current position with the reopening of the Skipton to Colne route and the safeguarding of that route?
Railways: Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract
Lord Rosser Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is not for me to comment on the ability of bidders to raise the finance. However, the model selected by the previous Administration is a good one and we support it. It is important to remember that the Siemens bid will also create employment in the UK, although I have to accept that it will not be as much.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, on Tuesday, the Conservative MP for Mid Derbyshire said:
“Over the months … we have been waiting for the decision, I personally lobbied the Secretary of State for Transport … Unfortunately, he told me every … time that I was not to worry because Bombardier was fine … as the company had lots of orders and would have no problem going forward. That is clearly not the case, so he misread the situation. I hope that he feels somewhat apologetic about the decision”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/7/11; col. 10WH.]
That statement by the Conservative MP gives the game away. If the Secretary of State will not review the decision, what will he now do in negotiations with Siemens as the preferred bidder to maximise the number of additional jobs that it creates in this country to compensate for the thousands of jobs that will be lost in Derby and elsewhere in the rail supply chain as a result of the complacency and misjudgment which have now been revealed by one of his own MPs to have been behind the Secretary of State’s decision?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, any job losses are highly regrettable. However, Bombardier has previously advised the department that it expected to make redundancies at this time regardless of the outcome of the Thameslink procurement order as Bombardier’s Derby factory is currently operating at peak capacity and several of these orders come to an end later this year. Noble Lords will know that there are several other rolling stock procurement contracts in the offing.