Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Tuesday 16th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lloyd of Effra (Lab)]

My Lords, I again thank your Lordships’ House for its attentive scrutiny throughout the passage of the Bill. There can be no doubt, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, mentioned, that this House has discharged its duties as a revising Chamber. Your Lordships’ House asked the Government to look again, and we have worked collaboratively with noble Lords to reach this agreement. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Pannick and Lord Vaux, for their speeches in favour of the compromise proposed by the Government.

I turn to a number of the issues raised, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. I remind noble Lords that negotiations are successful only where there is compromise, as was so eloquently put in the previous debate by my noble friend Lord Barber of Ainsdale, the former chair of ACAS. The Government and worker representatives moved considerably during negotiations to agree to retaining a six-month qualifying period. Without similar compromise from business representatives on the removal, this deal would have been one-sided and undeliverable.

On the question of the impact of the cap, I do not think I can do better than the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who said last week that

“the concerns that have been expressed about the impact of the removal of the cap are perhaps … exaggerated”.—[Official Report, 10/12/25; col. 276.]

Just now, he mentioned that he does not believe it will lead to the chaos that the noble Lord outlined earlier. It is not our view, but, in any case, as I mentioned, we will publish the enactment impact assessment as soon as the Bill achieves Royal Assent. It will be public and transparent, and will include an assessment of the impact of removing the compensation cap.

I remind noble Lords of our commitment to convene meetings with shareholders so that those from the City, law practitioners and others can feed into that. Those findings will be taken into account by the dispute resolution task force that we are setting up—it will have all that information to hand. We are obviously very keen to improve the functioning of the dispute resolution system. We inherited something that was not in a good state. We are providing ACAS with over £65 million in resource funding, which is a significant increase. We are working actively to make this a system that works extremely well.

I hope that this afternoon will mark the end of the Bill’s journey through Parliament. I reiterate the Government’s commitment, mentioned by other noble Lords who spoke today, to continue talking to and genuinely engaging with interested parties in the way we have recently about the full range of issues discussed today. The Bill will deliver a generational shift in employment rights. It will do so by working with businesses and trade unions in a collaborative manner. These changes to the qualifying period and the compensation cap are proportional and practical. For those who are concerned about business impact, the joint letter should provide noble Lords with reassurances that businesses support this workable agreement. As they have stated,

“now is the time for Parliament to pass the Bill”.

I hope noble Lords will recognise the progress made over the past nine months, oppose the amendment tabled by the Opposition Front Bench, and, in doing so, support the package to deliver certainty for businesses and fair rights for workers. It is indeed time for Parliament to pass the Bill. I commend it to the House.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I have a right to ask questions. What is most concerning, at least for me, is not the limit or the reducing of the compensation package—that is not the question—but the use of ping-pong to produce a new clause that has never been debated in your Lordships’ House or even in the Commons. That is a constitutional question that bothers most of us.

I have not heard a word saying, for example, that we reached an agreement, we felt we had to bring it in and we will not do this kind of thing again. As more Bills come, how do we know whether ping-pong will be used in a way that, in my book, it should not be? No one should introduce new clauses that have not been canvassed in both Houses of Parliament. Because that has not happened, some of us are arguing about not the actual amendment but whether we will know that rules that have been established in your Lordships’ House for years will be followed. I have been in the House since 2005, and ping-pong has never been used to introduce a new clause that has not been debated in both Houses. Will we know?

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 10th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for meeting with me earlier today. It allowed us to sort out some misunderstandings, for which I am very grateful.

I will speak only to Motions B and B1. I somewhat regret that this is not the speech that I had originally intended to make—in fact, I had written it. I had intended to make a very short speech thanking the Minister and the Government for listening to the House, almost every business group, the Resolution Foundation, the Tony Blair Institute and their own impact assessment, and reaching a sensible compromise based on what this House proposed.

I was very pleased that the Government held talks between the business groups and the unions, and that all had agreed that the compromise was workable. Contrary to some of the more irresponsible comments that we have seen in the press—some coming from the other place, sadly—this was not a case of out-of-touch Peers blocking a government Bill. It was a good example of this House doing its job of scrutinising legislation and asking the other place to think again. We do not block legislation; we seek to improve it. I do not underestimate how difficult it was for the Government to make the important concession on day-one unfair dismissal rights that they have made.

Sadly, though, I cannot end my speech there. The Government set out the compromise they reached in an announcement on 27 November. It said that agreement had been reached on a six-month qualifying period, which would be changeable only by primary legislation —so far, so good. It also very briefly mentioned the lifting of the compensation cap, something that has never been discussed during the passage of the Bill. Then I saw the actual amendment, which goes somewhat beyond lifting the compensation cap. The amendment abolishes it altogether so that compensation for unfair dismissal will be unlimited, which I suggest is different from lifting.

As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, it is at best ambiguous. I note that the Minister is now referring to removing the cap, which I think is more accurate. As we have heard, this does not appear to have been equally understood by every party to the agreement between the employer organisations and trade unions. A number of employer organisations are still expressing concerns about it.

Does this late change matter? The amendment removes the current cap on what can be claimed in an unfair dismissal claim. Currently, it is the lower of 52 weeks’ pay or £118,223. While it might be true that few claims go over that, that may well be because higher-paid people will generally reach agreement, knowing that the cap exists, rather than taking the matter to the tribunal. This change may incentivise more higher-paid people to turn to the already overburdened tribunal system. There is no downside to them doing so with the hope of a higher payout, or at least a strengthening of their negotiating position. As we have heard, the irony of this is that the main beneficiaries are likely to be senior employees on high salaries who are moving towards the end of their careers, not the workers the Government claim to be helping.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, gave the example of the water industry. I was trying to think of an example and one rather closer to this House occurred to me. When the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, was fired from his position as ambassador to the United States, there was a lot of speculation in the press that he might be able to claim for unfair dismissal due to the summary nature of his dismissal. Obviously I do not know the details of his contract, what has been agreed or anything else—it would be interesting to know what was agreed—but is this really the sort of situation the Government want to give the possibility of unlimited compensation to? It would certainly strengthen the negotiating hand of the employee in any such situation.

The truth is that we do not know what the effect will be or whether this matters. It has been introduced without warning at the last possible moment in the Bill, with no consultation, no impact assessment and no scrutiny. Whatever one thinks about the merit of removing the cap on compensation, this is not the right way to do it. I would go as far as suggesting that it is testing our constitutional processes to the limit. Legislation should not be decided in—I do not think I am allowed to say “smoke-filled” any more—darkened rooms as a deal between a limited number of interested parties. It is not the way we do things. This is a material change, and it deserves to be properly consulted on, impact-assessed and debated. It should have been introduced much earlier.

The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, is admirably constructive; I thought it would go further. Rather than remove this new clause altogether, it proposes a review of unfair dismissal compensation to take place within three months, and sets out that the review

“must include a consultation with … employers’ organisations … trade unions … employment law practitioners, and … such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”.

That is a fair and constructive approach.

However, we must be pragmatic. This is the third stage of ping-pong. Whatever we do at this stage is unlikely to move in the other place, and I am conscious that I do not want to see the key concession of a six-month qualifying period being unpicked as a result of our actions. As I said, I accept that that was a big step for the Government to make.

I thank the Minister for her confirmation that there will now be an impact assessment, which will be published as soon as possible. I did not hear clearly that there will be a full consultation with other parties. Currently, this has been consulted on by six organisations and I do not know how many unions. That is not a wide consultation on such a big change. Will there be a proper consultation process on this before it comes into effect?

Assuming the answer to that question is to the positive, reluctantly, and while protesting in the strongest possible terms that introducing such a significant change at such a late stage runs a coach and horses through the proper process of scrutiny of legislation, I am minded to bring this to an end and accept the Government’s amendment. But, as I said, I will listen to what the Minister says before I make that final decision.

I have one final request. This late insertion of a material change to legislation in the third stage of ping-pong must not become a precedent. Can the Minister confirm that the Government see this as a one-off, extraordinary case, and not something to be repeated?

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, who is new at the Dispatch Box, for explaining things quite clearly. I am thankful for the Government accepting that amendment, which has clearly enabled the country to feel, when people take on jobs, that there is a qualifying period, although not an indefinite one. I said in your Lordships’ House that I was like a gramophone playing a record that was stuck in a groove. The Government have given me a new needle and I am out of that groove, so I thank them very much.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak fairly briefly in support of Motion D1 from the noble Lord, Lord Burns. This has become known as the hokey-cokey amendment—opt in, opt out, opt in, opt out, through the chain of amendments that have been put down. I support the vital role of trade unions, but I find it hard to understand why legislation should be used to steer—or, if you prefer, nudge—employees towards funding political causes.

The noble Lord, Lord Burns, has shifted a very long way from his original amendment. All the amendments now require is a checkbox at the start to allow employees to opt out if they so wish. This is surely the absolute minimum that should be available to them. I would have preferred asking trade union members if they wished to opt in, as a positive statement, rather than to opt out, which is a negative that would perhaps attract black marks in the membership list of their union. It does the Government no credit to seek to deny employees this opt-in choice. However, like the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Vaux, I am reluctant to extend ping-pong, and I will be guided by the noble Lord whose amendment this is.

Employee Car Ownership Schemes

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Monday 8th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stockwood (Lab)]

We believe that the tax system that has been applied is fair and balanced, but we are happy to take those points under consideration.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to the Front Bench of His Majesty’s Government. The noble Lord from the Official Opposition asked a question about the taxation of cars. I understand taxation for electric cars—that is pretty straightforward—but he asked about hybrids, which use both petrol and electricity. How will that work? Is it going to be a double whammy of taxation? I too drive a hybrid vehicle.

[Lord Stockwood (Lab)]

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for declaring his interest. I believe that hybrid vehicles are going to be taxed at half the rate, which is 1.5p a mile, as opposed to 3p a mile.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 17th November 2025 Lords Chamber

I return very briefly to Motion B1. To make jobs pay, as we have said, there need to be jobs. We learn that half the jobs lost since this Government came to power were for workers under 25—the very people who the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Sharpe, talked about. Their future will not be helped—indeed, it will be hindered—by the Bill, nor will the millions on benefits the Government seek to move into employment. That is the 21% inactive that I talked about in the first group. I hope that noble Lords can help common sense prevail by voting today and supporting these amendments.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise: I wanted to speak before the noble Lord, Lord Fox, spoke, but he went far too quickly and never looked in my direction.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, a former Lord Chief Justice and the first President of the Supreme Court, asked a question: would you employ somebody with a criminal record without the qualifying period? He was never answered. Like a gramophone where the needle has stuck, I am stuck in that groove, so I will ask a second time: would you employ somebody without any qualifying period if they have a criminal record? I will add another category. Say somebody graduated from university and could have worked because they are not unwell, but they have not worked for 30 years and they want to go back to work: would you employ them without any probationary period? The serious issue here is like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said: going from two years to just one day—24 hours and you are in.

There is another thing that worries me. We tend to describe employers as if they are all rogues. There are some bad employers, but the majority abide by the law. Today, they go before a tribunal if there is an unfair dismissal, so most people do not do it, but they want to have the security of knowing, when someone comes in, that there is a period of six months, say, during which they find out how that person plays in the firm and whether they are going to be loyal and faithful.

This probationary period is not a bad thing; most of us have been through it. I was a deacon for one year, and if they had discovered that I was no good, that would have been the end. The bishop would not have made me a priest; he would have said, “I will leave you as a deacon, and somebody, one day, may use you”. That sort of thing is discussed in relation to people in the Army. For example, a gentleman might want to become a commanding officer, and his trainer puts on his report, “Men will follow this gentleman, out of nothing”—or, in other words, “Do not take him”. Those reports are still being written.

Let us not deny employers who like to take on young people who have done some kind of mentoring work. I took on some, and that period was very useful. Quite a number ended up being ordained. We are discussing one day—24 hours—in which someone cannot be dismissed. I reckon that that is not how the world works. We want to protect workers’ rights but let us do it properly.

Finally, although this is a manifesto commitment, there is always a hurdle to turning a manifesto commitment into legislation. For me, the law is a public statement of policy; it is not just a manifesto commitment. Will this country go awry because we are so keen to protect workers’ rights—which we all want to do—without any qualifying period? I support Motion B1.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I cannot resist telling the House the following. Immediately after secretarial college, I had a job for a fortnight. On the last day, my employer said to me, “What are you really wanting to do?”, and I said, “Be a barrister”. He replied, “Thank goodness. You would never make a career as a secretary”.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt these exchanges, which are of great interest. I have not been able to participate in ping-pong for some time, but the House will be aware that I am very keen on the issues being discussed and have been involved in a number of Bills on which issues of a similar nature have arisen. I have been working with a group, keeping in touch on WhatsApp—the fashionable thing to do these days—and we had a broad approach to this, which I am afraid is now fragmenting. My noble friend Lord Knight has traitorously said that he is going to come back into the fold, and I wish him well with that.

The very fine speeches made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, have been misinterpreted by this House, and I regret that. She is absolutely right in asking us to look again at this. If she is successful with her Motion, it is right and appropriate that at last, the Commons has a chance to put forward a proposal which would be in everybody’s interest as a compromise based very closely on—but, ironically, not the same as—the amendment she has been forced, by the system of ping- pong, to put down today.

The right amendment was suggested some time ago—I was involved in discussions around that, but it received short shrift. It would allow the Government to have the power to bring forward by regulation measures required to deal with the ongoing and accelerating crisis, which is increasingly difficult to understand, concerning the way in which creative rights are being stolen and theft exercised on a grand scale. The amendment does not have a timescale or a period over which it can be looked at maturely; it does not rely on consultation; it is a judgment. It is that trust in the decision I want to be taken by my Government that is important to stress, not some of the other issues raised today. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, was right to reflect on the fact, picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, that although this is not the first time the House has been faced with a difficult issue, it is the first time it has been frustrated by inappropriate processes and procedures. Let us have a debate on what we can do to get ourselves to a better place. The issues have been well explained.

I reflect on the work we did on the Online Safety Bill, when I said from the Opposition Benches—unscripted, and with slight trepidation that I would be shot down—that I did not want to work in opposition to the Government on a Bill for which there was no political disadvantage on either side, and that we wanted to use the talents, skills and expertise so often found in this House to get the best Bill possible. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, nodding, because we worked well together. It was really difficult to do, because the system is set up to provide opposition to anything that challenges the supremacy of the Bill as introduced. Even the noble Lord had long and difficult times persuading his own side that there was a case to make on moving forward.

This is exactly the same issue. There is not a huge difference in where we want to get to. The Government have moved, but they lack the flexibility that we think will be necessary in the next few months—or even years—to bring forward at the appropriate time the transparency that everybody knows has to be there.

There are other things that need to be looked at, such as copyright, but they can be dealt with in time. However, transparency is at the root of this. I urge the Government to work with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and others—I offer to participate in any necessary discussions—to get to a point where everyone can relax, knowing that the main issue is dealt with and we have a clearly articulated programme that will take us forward at the appropriate time, in the Government’s judgment. That is what we need.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I do not want to detain the House for long. I have sat through every stage of the Bill and not uttered a word. I have been absorbing the debate, and I am still puzzled as to why the Government are not willing to reach agreement with some of the wonderful statements being made.

I have two issues to reflect on. The first is that the creative arts have had a fantastic campaign, but it would be a mistake to think that this is only about the creative arts; it is to do with any property right where copyright is involved. The first to fall would probably be the creative arts, but anybody who is protected by copyright will be affected by AI in one way or another, unless you follow the wonderful wisdom of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron.

The second point is one for the Government to reflect on. They need to remember the words of Francis Pym, the first Foreign Secretary in Mrs Thatcher’s Government. They had a very big majority, and he dared to suggest to the Iron Lady that big majorities never make for good government. Why? Because you can rely on even those who do not listen to the debate to turn up and vote for your side. You know what happened to Francis Pym? He lost his job. How much will the Labour Government reflect on the experience of Francis Pym?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I once again declare an interest as chair of the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society, and once again give the staunch support of these Benches to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on her Motion A1. She made an incontestable case once again with her clarion call.

I follow the noble Lord, Lord Russell, and others in saying that we are not in new territory. I have a treasured cartoon on my wall at home that relates to the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill as long ago as 2001, showing Secretary of State Alan Milburn recoiling from ping-pong balls. Guess who was hurling the ping-pong balls? The noble Earl, Lord Howe, that notable revolutionary, and I were engaging in rounds of parliamentary ping-pong—three, I think. Eventually, compromises were reached and the Bill received Royal Assent in April 2001.

What we have done today and what we are going to do today as a House is not unprecedented. There is strong precedent for all Benches to work together on ping-pong to rather good effect. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, says, what we are proposing today will not, in the words of the Minister, “collapse” the Bill: it will be the Government’s choice what to do when the Bill goes back to the Commons. I hugely respect the noble Lord, Lord Knight, but I am afraid that he is wrong. It was not a manifesto commitment; there is no Salisbury convention that can be invoked on this occasion. It has nothing at all to do with data adequacy except that the Government feel that they have to get the Bill through in order to get the EU Commission to start its work. If anything, the Bill makes data adequacy more difficult. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, that I agree with almost everything he said: everything he said was an argument for the noble Baroness’s amendment. Once again, as ever, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, as I so often do on these occasions. I regard him as the voice of reason, and I very much hope that the Government will listen to what he has to say.

Compromise is entirely within the gift of the Government. The Secretary of State should take a leaf out of Alan Milburn’s book. He did compromise on an important Bill in key areas and saw his Bill go through. I am afraid to say that the letter that Peers have received from the Minister is simply a repeat of her speech on Monday, which was echoed by Minister Bryant in the Commons yesterday. The Government have tabled these new amendments, which reflect the contents of that letter. Despite those amendments, however, the Government have not offered a concession to legislate for mandated transparency provisions within the Bill, which has been the core demand of the Lords amendments championed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for the reasons set out in the speeches we have heard today.

In the view of these Benches, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, other Members of this House, and countless creatives have made the absolutely convincing case for a transparency duty which would not prejudge the outcome of the AI and copyright consultation. We have heard the chilling points made by the noble Lords, Lord Russell and Lord Pannick, about US policy in this area and about the attitude of the big tech companies towards copyright. We are at a vital crossroads in how we ensure the future of our creative industries. In the face of the development of AI and how it is being trained, we must take the right road, and I urge the Government to settle now.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

In the spirit of trying to be constructive, I want to suggest a way forward. To me, the easiest solution here would be simply to remove Clause 23 and Schedule 3 altogether and just shorten the qualifying period to nine months, without changing the already significant existing protections. I think that would be acceptable to most businesses, and it would minimise the damage this policy will cause to the business in terms of costs, but most importantly to the life chances of those people who need employers to take a chance on them. It would also go a long way to meeting most of what the Government appear to be trying to achieve.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I find myself wanting to support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. The reason is this. We arrived in Berwick-upon-Tweed, which, by the way, according to the Guardian a few days ago, is the most loving, caring place—the best in the country. Yes, maybe since I arrived it has become that; none the less, that is what it said. It is the most peaceful place to live in. Sometimes, we do not even lock our doors when we go out for a short period. In other places, they would know, word would get round, and you would be visited by people who think they should acquire your property, outside the law.

We had to find a plumber. The plumber was wonderful, the best in the town, and people said that to get him was quite costly. He was costly because, once you agreed to let him do the work, he would say, “I have an apprentice. I could pay him as the Government say and give him the national living wage. But he is at college and doing very well, and I would like him to graduate, and to succeed”. So, he said that a fee would be charged to the person who hires him. He showed that in his receipts—the amount you paid for the wonderful apprentice. That apprentice, Oscar, has grown in his job since being there for four years. When he graduates, he will be one of the best plumbers.

Apprentices need to be protected. My plumber will never just immediately say that the job is coming to an end, because he has been very wise. He is a single employer who works alone, and out of his business he is willing to pay the amount of money the Government have allocated. However, he suddenly realised that some of us would like to put in a little bit more for this apprentice. So, there will never be a day when he has not got money to keep that apprentice, even if business may not be coming in.

This is an example of an employer who employs an apprentice, and I am sure he is going to get another one. His apprentice learnt very fast: for three days a week, he had to go to college in the morning, and then come back to do the apprentice work—

[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

I think the noble Lord is speaking to the previous amendment, which is about apprentices.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I am supporting it.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

This is the clause stand part notice. The previous amendment was about apprentices, which I think the noble Lord is speaking about.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I am supporting this one, but also the amendments which come later, which are mentioned. That is what I said at the beginning.