Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 20th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I will do my best to answer the valid points that have been raised.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I appreciated the meeting we had which, as he said, was also attended by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, who is not in her place at present. I found it a useful discussion. In that meeting and again today, the noble Lord made some very valid points. He indicated that the message on support is ambiguous. I accept that overall, in terms of personal interventions, there was more support for two unitary authorities than one. But the point I was making, which I think unanswerable, is that there was an overwhelming response in favour of change—in favour of unitarisation. I see that the noble Lord accepts that.

I turn to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about democracy in general. He and I have had this discussion previously. As a councillor of great and long standing, he knows very well that in a democracy one has to respond to the people who respond, whether through surveys or votes. He and I would both like more people to participate, as I am sure would all noble Lords in the Chamber.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also raised an issue about the changes that are undoubtedly happening in the country at large, such as with HS2 and housing. Those are certainly important developments but they affect many councils, not only Buckinghamshire. I was not quite sure at one stage whether the noble Lord wanted us to look at this in terms of a larger unit or a smaller one. The support that he seemed to be getting behind was in favour of having two unitary authorities but, looking at it more broadly, some of the housing issues on the Oxford-Cambridge arc would indicate the need for a larger authority.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. What I was trying to argue for was a review in the not too distant future. The statutory instrument says that there will be no review, because once this unitary council is established local democracy will take care of any changes, but I think that that misses the point that he has just made: there are substantial changes on the horizon, some of which are happening even today, and it would be sensible to have in mind the thought of thinking again about the overall structure.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful for that. The noble Lord did indeed make that point. I was going to come on to look at the issue of the review. I think he has indicated now, although perhaps not as strongly as earlier, that we are looking at the electoral response in terms of a review of arrangements. As he has indicated previously, most of these changes affect other council areas as well as Buckinghamshire, which is the subject of the debate at the moment.

During the course of his very useful contribution, he referred to winners and losers. That is not how we are looking at this. I accept that the breakdown will see nine representatives on the executive from the county council area and eight from elsewhere, but I do not think that that is domination; it is a narrow majority. As I have indicated, there will be an opportunity to replace the leader if there is a desire to do so—so that is there as well.

All the council leaders have indicated—and I am very grateful for this—their strong support for the new arrangements and their desire to get behind them, which, in all fairness, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also indicated. That is the way we have to look at this. It is not with unanimous support, but with local government reorganisations it would be strange if it were. It seeks to represent the fact that we need a compromise. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for indicating his support for the Secretary of State and the sensible compromise. We are trying to work towards a consensus with the three-member wards and the 147 members.

The re-warding that will happen after 2025 will be led by the Boundary Commission. It would be unwise for me to opine on that at this stage, but obviously it will be guided by experience. I share with the noble Lord the general desire that we do not want too few members. We perhaps have to recognise that there is a real job of work to be done here. I have to say that 147 sounds reasonable to me—but, as I say, this will be guided by experience and by the Boundary Commission. Obviously there will be a chance to look at this as things develop.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, made some very useful comments. I thank him for them and for his broad support for the measure. I agree with him on the need, as I say, to have a generous number of members—not too few—to represent democracy. I also agree about the important role of the parish councils. I have sought to find out, during the course of the discussions we have had, what is proposed. This will be led by the new authority, of course, but they have indicated that they want community hubs for the 19 areas, and the intention is that they should be represented by community boards for those areas to serve Buckinghamshire towns and villages and enable local councillors to take decisions on very local issues such as funding for community groups, local road maintenance and things that would apply to those particular communities. That is the intention. For example, residents in communities such as Buckingham and Beaconsfield at different ends of the county and in the surrounding areas would be able to look to decisions on local matters being made closer to those communities. The intention is to work closely with public sector providers in those areas as well to try to ensure that there is a genuinely local feel to the way that decisions are reached there.

I turn to the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. Again, I thank him for his general support for what we are doing—or at least for the fact that he will not oppose it, as I think he phrased it. He made some very fair points about the strategy. He was concerned that we had something more like a detailed blueprint. That is not the way in which we have been seeking to do this. Things are different in different areas, and the consistent theme running through this is democracy. It would be hard to see some sort of metro mayor operation in Buckinghamshire, for example, although I think it is appropriate for Cambridge and Peterborough. I think the noble Lord would accept that different rules apply to different parts of the country.

He talked—perhaps this is an indication of Labour being somewhat rooted in the past—about the sweet counter at Woolworths. I have news for the noble Lord: that has long since gone. But I accept his general point that there is perhaps a need for a more consistent theme. He will know that we will be making a Statement on devolution in England; we are committed to doing that. That will perhaps be in relation to the metro mayor position. I hope that the noble Lord will take comfort from that.

To come back to democracy, it is worth noting that this proposal came from the area; it did not come from the Government. Obviously we have had a hand in shaping it, but the initial proposal came from the councils of the area itself.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I listened to the Minister explain the position and I am picking up on what my noble friend Lord Kennedy said. Does the Minister accept that we have an area that has perhaps grown up with a particular style of government, and where there has not been much change over the last 30 years or so? There is a danger that by listening to only that voice and considering the representation from only one of the five councils, one is playing to a particular style and approach, and not thinking about the wider context of metropolitan-type counties near London, many of which will have similar problems. The point my noble friend was making was that there is probably a level of perspective above that, which suggests that we need a better template for all that, to make sure those particularities do not dominate a more general case.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I certainly accept that there is a need to listen to a broad range of opinions. In fairness to local representatives, MPs and councils, I think we have done that in Buckinghamshire. There is not unanimity of opinion; that is a perfectly valid point. I also accept, and this will be reflected when we look at devolution arrangements for England, that there is a need to look at a broad feel for the country and how matters are governed. That is fair, but we also have to recognise that a uniform, monochrome blueprint—I have mixed my metaphors—for councils is undesirable. There is perhaps a way around this that accommodates both.

I am really grateful for the contributions made. I am sure we will take account of these comments. I will seek to update noble Lords on any points I have missed in this very useful debate. I thank them for their contributions and their general support.

Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the proposals for unitarisation in Buckinghamshire. I remind noble Lords that a locally led proposal is the background to this—as it should be, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, rightly said. The provisions will run out on 31 March this year, when we will revert to the previous procedures and to legislation brought in under Tony Blair, if I am not mistaken. That would require an invitation from the Secretary of State to amend local government procedures, unless there is unanimity among local authorities, in which case it would not be necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made a point about Milton Keynes. He is right that it is a dog that has not barked and was not part of the locally led proposal. I recognise that Milton Keynes is significant in that area but it was not part of the process. He also made a point about viable geography and the size of a unitary authority. I think this issue has been addressed; indeed, my honourable friend the Minister for Local Government dealt with this issue in the other place and followed it up with a letter that talked about the process. I will make sure that the relevant letter is sent to noble Lords.

Originally, we imagined a population range of between 400,000 and 600,000 people, but subsequently found that this was too high. I am not saying that no ranges are above that figure, but the norm is somewhere around the 300,000 mark I referred to. It is not a hard-and-fast rule, but it is a guiding principle. The size has an effect on the nature and the split of services; indeed, the children’s commissioner gave the view that one unitary authority would be more beneficial than two. That view was reflected in the consultation—not exclusively, I accept, but getting 100% support for proposals is always pretty unlikely in a consultation. There was certainly discontent from the authorities, all of which were not content with the status quo. We have not had representations from local parties saying that the proposals are untenable.

The choice facing my right honourable friend the Secretary of State was between progressing with one unitary authority for the four district authorities or with two. Obviously, a judgment of Solomon must be made. With respect, all the authorities are Conservative-led, so there can be no idea of this move being for political gain; that was not suggested but I want to make the point. The Minister acted in this way after looking at the viable geography and representations made, and trying to work out which proposal presented the best option for local government in the area. He thought that a single unitary authority was that best option.

I do not pretend that this will please everyone; clearly it will not. For example, it will not please the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, which I suggest will not change after I finish speaking and after the regulations have, I hope, been agreed to. As I say, we must look at the considerations I presented, the provision of services and the size of the entity. All are important but there was certainly little or no support for the status quo: 87% of people felt that the status quo was not viable, so the suggestion that this will upset everybody in the area is somewhat far-fetched. The noble Lord also mentioned the deferral of elections. They are being deferred for a year, in line with what all the authorities—district and county councils—asked for.

If I have missed any other points made by noble Lords, as I almost certainly have, I will pick up on them in a letter. Echoing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, noble Lords will get another bite of the cherry when the order comes forward and we look at some of its provisions in more detail. With that, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Given that the Minister welcomed the idea of further debate on the order, is he prepared to meet me and other colleagues from the area to exchange views on some of the deeper issues raised by this?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

It is always a pleasure to meet the noble Lord. I am very happy to do that, but without any promise that it will make any difference.

Broadcasting Act 1996 (Renewal of Local Radio Multiplex Licences) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 10th March 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry we have not attracted a bigger audience for this topic. Indeed, it might have been even smaller if I had not been able to rush out of my medical appointment, which grievously overran, so I am a bit out of breath and slightly unsighted on this. Since it has effected nosebleeds, I might suddenly emerge in a haze of red; if so, I will rush out. I will apologise to the Committee if that is the case. I am slightly extending it to make the point and I do not think it will happen, but that was where I was earlier today.

I enjoyed very much the introduction given by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. It is great to hear that progress has been made in digital audio broadcasting. There was a bit of a blizzard of statistics. I am not sure I have my coverage detached from my percentage of ownership or use, but I am looking forward to reading it in Hansard and I might come back to it if I am still confused. The two things that have struck me are that more than 60% of new cars now have DAB, which has always been the key issue. If one can get the car manufacturers to adopt this as standard then it will naturally drive people’s experience and use and therefore lead to greater confidence and greater usage—or is it coverage? I forget which. I am also very struck by the 50% of home use figure that the noble Lord mentioned and I think that that is a very good base for further development of this issue.

The noble Lord was clear that simply reaching those figures did not mandate a trigger for anything to do with the switchover, but I wonder whether, when he comes to respond, he could simply just go over this again, because it seems to me it would be helpful both to the industry and to policymakers if there was some sense from the Government of what figures they are aiming for. More than 50% seems to me to be a majority. It is usually what tends to happen in these matters and I think in that situation it is pretty close to getting there. Coverage is clearly a bigger issue and I will come on to some points about that, but I do not yet understand quite what is holding it back.

The position with television is, of course, not the same, but it certainly had a significantly different approach. In the case of the switchover for television, a clear target was given with significant time to allow manufacturers and users to plan for the eventual change. I am sure that this was in the thinking and that, once the trigger point has been reached, we will have that, but it would be helpful to get reassurance on that point from the Minister.

As I hope will be clear from what I am saying, we are very supportive of the measures in this SI and do not have any objections to the process. I suppose that, behind it, there is a slight question about where competition in this area will come in, if at all. The worry outlined by the noble Lord, and which drove the earlier decisions to proceed down this route of giving support, particularly to those who are operating the local multiplexes, loses a little bit of bite when you consider the timescales that we are talking about; that is, another 15 years for these people from today and, admittedly, only 10 years from the point at which their licences begin to run out. It is not a huge amount of time, but in a market like that it is certainly quite a significant support mechanism for this area. I just wonder whether any thought was given to the carrot of giving what is, effectively, a 10-year licence to operate. I was going to say something else, but I will not; it involved the word money. It is an area that we will need to come back to at some point. On the general question of the switchover, I am interested to know what the big picture looks like now and whether there was some sense in which competition was deliberately considered but then ignored. I would like some information on that.

I would like to ask a few questions. I may have missed this in the introduction, but there was a problem with the second commercial digital channel, D2 as it was called. What progress has there been on that? That was surrendered by the winner of the auction following the award of the licence. Will he give us an update on that?

What work is being done on technical measures to support radio in particular? There is quite a lot of talk in technical terms around broadcasting more generally about whether satellite, Freeview and other forms of distribution are likely to make an entry. Do we have any information about commercial radio and BBC radio in the digital field? There are ways in which that could be done. Many people now listen to radio on the internet. What exactly is the balance between those? If there is any information on that, I would be grateful to have it. The attempt to bring all licences in on a landing slot of 2030 is probably sensible, particularly if there are thoughts about technological change. It would be interesting to know something on that.

Finally, I am advised that licence rollovers have been granted in the past to analogue commercial radio stations that also broadcast in DAB, which, presumably, is a means of ensuring stability and supporting investment in digital radio coverage and content. The Digital Economy Act extended those licences only to 2017, so it is a rather narrower date than 2020, which is the date that we are talking about for the local multiplexes. Presumably, in the absence of any action by government, we will look to require those licence holders to reapply for their licences. That does seem a little bit tough. I understand that DCMS consulted on this matter with a closing date of 1 December 2014. As we are now in March, will the Minister mention where he is on that, what is likely to happen to it and what timescale is involved?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, very much indeed for his contribution. If he is capable of that with an impending nosebleed, goodness knows what he would be like firing on full health. We certainly wish him well.

I thank him very much for the kind words of support. I will try to deal with the various questions that he raised. I have every sympathy with his fight with the statistics. I also have had one in this area with the acronyms, but am probably just about making my way through that.