Armed Forces: Territorial Army

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his support. We are making the offer more attractive to both reservists and employers and encouraging ex-regular personnel to join. This is supported by significant additional investment—£1.8 billion over 10 years across training, equipment, paid leave, pensions, and welfare and occupational health support. The Army has already run one Army Reserve recruiting campaign, which resulted in a great many expressions of interest, and is currently running another with up to 900 soldiers conducting outreach activity at local and regional level.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise first to associate these Benches with the condolences expressed by the Minister and, particularly, to share his thoughts about the wounded. The Minister has refused on three successive occasions over the past few months to give an undertaking that the decline in the size of the Regular Army will not proceed until the increase in the trained Army Reserve is secured. Now we have figures—incomplete figures—about how this is going, but it does not seem to be going well. The data should be available and open. This should not be a clandestine experiment. Will the Minister commit to publishing all the figures? Does he share my concern that the Government are not meeting their targets and that the untrained strength of the reserves has gone down year on year? This does not bode well for his 2018 target or the future of the British Army.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I do not share the views of the noble Lord. The recruit partnering programme is not failing. We are getting the most capability for the taxpayer from the resources available. At the same time as growing and transforming the reserves, we are changing the way that we recruit for both regulars and reserves, along with our commercial partner Capita. These are two large-scale change programmes, which are yet to reach full maturity. We are working with the relevant contractors, namely Capita and ATLAS, and all MoD stakeholders to identify any problems, iron them out, mature the programmes, and deliver as committed.

Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2013

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I have a general objection to Front-Benchers speaking from the Back Benches, but this is a subject area close to my heart. With my noble friend Lord Rosser I was part of the team which represented the Opposition during the passage of the 2011 Act. I hope that the noble Lord might be able to give us a more colourful picture of where things stand as this would seem to be an important step in the progress towards the powerful management of alcohol within the forces. I read it as an important step forward and, as such, I welcome it.

I have been involved in the world of work and alcohol since I learnt to fly in a university air squadron in the 1960s. We were still in the grip of a post-war tradition; alcohol and being part of the force were closely linked. Yes, you did not fly when you had been drinking, but virtually all the rest of the time, every evening, alcohol was part of that world. That was true in my early career as a pilot—once again, we had rules about drinking—but in the industrial relations world I lived in an enormous amount of business was done in an alcohol environment. I went into the oil world and the situation was the same. There was nothing special about me. I cannot claim that I did not enjoy it. That was the world we lived in. If you were trailing jet fuel you drank over dinner and in many social situations. It was how business was done. Looking back on it, it was wrong, in the sense that alcohol modifies how you make judgments and decisions, and you make better decisions when alcohol is averred. However, it is very difficult to change cultures where these behaviours are the norm.

I came into the railway industry in the late 1980s, and that had an alcohol tradition, for want of a better way of describing it. Public opinion came along and said, “This isn’t right”. We had the same situation, although, of course, staff would assure one that they were not under the influence of alcohol when they came to work. However, public opinion wanted something more, and we, as the management, saw that grasping that general direction was the right thing to do. Yes, a piece of legislation came along, but we had a very successful engagement with our trade unions, which saw that this was what society expected, and we introduced drug and alcohol testing. To say that it was traumatic would be too strong, but it was a shock to the industry. We drove alcohol out of the front line of the industry. It is interesting that we then recognised how we in the management, who did not have “critical responsibilities” at the time, had to follow suit. We had to set an example.

This will be, if I read it right, a shock to the services. It will need to be handled very sensitively by the chain of command and it will need a lot of help in terms of training, and so on. In aviation, it is interesting that you cannot even get a private pilot’s licence now without passing a paper which, although it is not called “alcohol management”, is all about being fit for duty and so on. That culture will become widespread, and it will seep upwards. Officers, including senior officers, will recognise that they have to set an example.

I hope that we get this right. It is important that the Armed Forces do not feel “done to”, and that they recognise the value of a change of culture. I am not suggesting that they have not been changing their culture, but this specification is very clear and makes the direction of travel absolutely clear. It will require some people to modify their behaviour, including management and leadership style. I commend the Government and the leadership of the Armed Forces for bringing forward this measure. I hope that its introduction is smooth and successful and that we can get across to the Armed Forces that it is a change that is good for them and for their safety and will be good for the long-term health and culture within the Armed Forces.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, it is interesting to note that there are now as many officials in the Box as there are Members of your Lordships’ House present. We have no issues with either of these measures. Debating the continuation order is an annual event, because, as the Minister said, it is necessary to enable the Armed Forces Act 2006 to continue in force for a further year, rather than expiring on 2 November this year. It would therefore be entirely legitimate, in a debate on that order, to raise just about any issue relating to our Armed Forces. However, I shall go to the other extreme and say very little. I raised in a debate on an earlier continuation order the question of whether, if the order were not passed, that would mean that there was no statutory basis or parliamentary authority for our Armed Forces, and the Minister responded to me on that point in writing at the time.

The Explanatory Memorandum refers to the recently introduced single system of service law. We recently had a debate on an order that provided for a reduction in the number of lay members sitting on a more serious case, and having to pass sentence where the defendant was pleading guilty. I raised a number of questions, to which the noble Lord has also responded to me in writing. I thank him for his usual and continuing courtesy, and the trouble he takes to reply to the points—at times not an insignificant number of points—raised both from this Dispatch Box and by other Members of this House.

I may come back to the Minister on his reply on courts martial and officers who are lay members, largely to seek further information about how the lay members are selected and what prior training they have had. I acknowledge the parallel with a civilian jury, who determine guilt or otherwise, and who have had no prior training—but that does not apply to those who pass sentence. If I decide to explore that point further, I will initiate the process either through a written question or by writing to the Minister.

On the continuation order, I conclude by expressing appreciation and gratitude to our Armed Forces for the vital work that they do—often, as we all know, at considerable personal risk to their well-being, and sometimes at the cost of an all too real personal sacrifice—to protect our nation and provide us with the level of security needed to establish and maintain a civilised and peaceful society.

We welcome the Armed Forces (Alcohol Limits for Prescribed Safety-Critical Duties) Regulations. There are a few points that I would like to raise and comments that I would like to make. As my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe said, attitudes towards excessive drinking have changed in recent years, and its unacceptability and potential consequences both for the drinker and for those with whom they come in contact directly or indirectly are more widely acknowledged. We have seen changes in culture, particularly in the field of work and employment, including the transport industry.

I well remember some years ago being at a lunch attended by many, in a London hotel, and sitting at the same table as a number of senior British Rail managers. On tables all around us, some alcohol was being consumed. The senior British Rail managers had none. They would all be back at their jobs in the afternoon, and thus on duty. Being on duty having recently consumed alcohol was no more permitted for them than it would be for someone on the front line driving a train or maintaining signalling equipment. Will the Minister indicate whether the alcohol limits we are talking about in this order will in reality if not through this order apply to senior military personnel, including at the very highest level of our Armed Forces? They, too, make decisions which can have a profound impact on those they command, including on their safety, as well as on the security of this country, and on costs and finances. The fact that the impact of the decisions that they make may not always become obvious immediately should in no way detract from the requirement that, when they make those decisions, they should be in a completely fit state to do so.

The regulations provide for two maximum levels of permissible alcohol intake, one being much lower than the other. It would be helpful if the Minister could say why it has been felt desirable to have two different levels, rather than simply one—namely, the lower level—which would apply to all those duties listed here being undertaken. They are all safety critical, and judgment and reactions can be impaired by alcohol. I assumed something that the Minister confirmed, that the reason there is not zero tolerance in respect of alcohol limits is that it appears possible for two people who have had, or, more relevantly, have not had, alcohol, to produce different readings which, certainly in respect of meeting a zero tolerance standard, could result in an injustice. If, however, we are to have two different levels of alcohol limits related to the duties being undertaken, it would be helpful if the Minister could say perhaps a little bit more than is in the Explanatory Memorandum about the kind of criteria used to determine which duties should fall in which category of maximum acceptable alcohol limits.

I certainly have no intention of asking the Minister to explain why each duty listed in the order has been put in the category shown in the order, except for one particular case. Carrying out duties as a diver is shown in the higher alcohol limit category; so, too, is the duty of supervising a diver. My understanding is that, if a problem arises for a diver, the actions and decisions taken, and speed of those decisions taken by the person supervising that diver, can literally be the difference between life and death. I simply ask why it was not felt appropriate to place the duty of supervision of a diver in the much lower category for maximum acceptable alcohol limits.

The regulations do not refer to testing procedures, but I assume that the procedures will be similar to those in respect of a civilian involved in a road accident or suspected of driving with excess alcohol. If that is the case, would an individual under these regulations be tested only if they were suspected of having excess alcohol; or, in respect of some or all of the duties listed, would there be automatic testing before an individual commenced their duties; or will there be random testing; or will it be up to the superior officer concerned to decide what to do in this regard? I am not sure the extent to which carrying out the duties listed in the regulations with an alcohol intake in excess of those laid down in these regulations is an issue at the moment. If it is not, the impact of the regulations is likely to be minimal. If it is an issue, the regulations will need to be introduced and implemented with a degree of care and thought if we are not to leave our Armed Forces with a feeling that they are being singled out and cannot be trusted, as my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe said.

Culture change, if that is what these regulations are also intended to help achieve, does not often come quickly or easily. We are, however, all too aware of the shooting dead of an officer on the submarine HMS “Astute” in April 2011 by a submariner who was at least three times over the drink-drive limit while on guard duty. The submariner had been issued with the SA80 weapon by an officer before the shooting. The officer said that he was unaware that the submariner was under the influence of alcohol at the time. The coroner said that he would recommend random breath testing for Navy personnel. He also said:

“Anyone being drunk, or anywhere near drunk, on duty has, in my view, got to stop. … In my view the routine use of the appropriate machinery to at least establish the absence of alcohol in the system is necessary as I’m not convinced that the concept of heavy drinking on leave periods is likely to alter very much”.

Those words should give food for thought. The reality, as we know, is that someone with a level of alcohol inside them which impairs their ability to perform their duties is a danger not only to themselves but also to colleagues and others who are dependent on them performing those duties with maximum effectiveness and efficiency for their own safety, and for maximising others’ levels of effectiveness and efficiency. For that reason above all others, we support the regulations.

Armed Forces: Discrimination

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the levels of discrimination against serving and former members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the Armed Forces covenant sets out the principles that those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve, those who have served in the past and their families should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most, such as the injured and the bereaved. Any discrimination against members of the Armed Forces community is to be abhorred, and we will continue to be alert to any cases which are brought to our attention. I believe that the vast majority of the population are hugely supportive of those who defend them.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister about that wide support. Saturday is Armed Forces Day. It will be a day of celebration. Never in recent times has the level of approval of the Armed Forces been so high. Nevertheless, despite the efforts of both parties, some members of the Armed Forces still have problems. The splendid report of the noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft—I never thought that I would find myself saying that—found that in the past five years 20% have suffered verbal abuse, 5% have suffered violence or attempted violence, 18% have been refused service in hotels, pubs and elsewhere when wearing the uniform in the UK, and more than 25% have been refused a mortgage, loan or credit card. My right honourable friend Jim Murphy, the shadow Secretary of State, wrote to the Secretary of State on 27 May to urge him to hold cross-party talks on how to end discrimination against our Armed Forces and their families, including the option of introducing new legal protections for the services community. Will the Minister assure the House that this request will receive the fullest possible consideration?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we thank my noble friend Lord Ashcroft for his very helpful report and are reassured by the high level of support for the Armed Forces that he mentions. The report provides pointers to areas requiring attention. We believe that education rather than legislation is the most effective way to combat discrimination. We can lead this if we work together on a cross-party basis in Parliament to celebrate the contribution of our Armed Forces. An example of this is having troops marching into Parliament on their return from Afghanistan and being given refreshments and tours by MPs and noble Lords. This is the initiative of the All-Party Group for the Armed Forces. In his letter to Jim Murphy, the Secretary of State said:

“I would welcome a discussion with you on how we can ensure that everything we do in Parliament emphasises our cross-party support for the Armed Forces and the people who serve in them”.

Defence Budget

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for reading out the names of the two members of the Armed Forces who have recently died in Afghanistan. I would like to associate these Benches with the condolences to their families and friends and to support the Minister in his reference to the wounded. The two members of the Armed Forces concerned were involved in the extraordinarily difficult task of mentoring the security and armed forces of the Afghan Government. I am sure that we all admire the courage necessary to carry out that task in such difficult conditions.

I thank the noble Lord for repeating that very long Statement—it took him a bracing 15 minutes to do so. I have been faced with Statements and papers throughout my career. Those documents have varied greatly in length, and my suspicions have deepened as their length has increased. One way to work out whether a Statement or paper says anything is to précis it. When you précis something again and again, you can see what is left at the end. If there is not much left after that process then there cannot have been very much there in the first place. I put it to the House that this is a profoundly vacuous Statement. It says very little indeed.

The first thing that it does not contain is a plan. You would think that a Statement about defence expenditure over the next 10 years would have a plan associated with it. The Statement did not contain a plan—it promises a summary of a plan some time in the future. It does not even give a date when that plan will be put forward.

What else does the Statement say? One of the few new things it provides is an overall figure. It says that the equipment and support plan for the next 10 years involves £160 billion—that is the hard figure in the middle of the Statement. It then goes on to explain how that figure is made up. It says—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that £8 billion will be available over the next 10 years to adapt to the changing world. So, over 10 years, 5% of that amount will be available for innovation, new equipment and new threats—things that we do not know about now. Some £4 billion will be available as a contingency, which is about 3% of the overall figure. So £152 billion will be available over 10 years and the Government have got things so right that they can manage with a contingency of 3%. I put it to noble Lords that that level of accuracy simply is not credible.

What else will the plan contain? Does the Statement mention any new acquisitions? I do not know—I could not see any. Although it mentions the decision to purchase three offshore patrol vessels, as opposed to leasing them, we have heard everything else before. Is there anything new in the Statement? Are there any new cuts? I cannot see any new ones. I can see no mention of how money will be saved.

Let us go back to what the Statement purports to say. I should add that the press reports about what the Statement would say were rather more exciting than the Statement itself. I invite the Minister to correct me if I have overread the press reports, but they seemed to imply that the Secretary of State for Defence would say that there would be no more cuts over the next 10 years—no more cuts until 2022. That is pretty ambitious. If that is what the Minister said, I am sure that noble Lords will welcome it. If nothing else, we will not have so many Statements to look at when plans change.

Does the Statement say that there will be no more cuts? The closest reference I could find was:

“I can tell the House today that, after two years’ work, the black hole in the defence budget has finally been eliminated and the budget is now in balance”.

Is the budget in balance for 10 years? Will there be no more cuts over the next 10 years?

What does this promise? Once again, I looked through the Statement. Does it promise anything different from the SDSR of October 2010? That was a very precise document. For instance, it stated on page 19:

“The new Defence Planning Assumptions envisage that the Armed Forces in the future will be sized and shaped to conduct … an enduring stabilisation operation at around brigade level … with maritime and air support as required, while also conducting … one non-enduring complex intervention (up to 2,000 personnel), and … one non-enduring simple intervention (up to 1,000 personnel)”.

Does this equipment plan with its balanced budget still commit the Government to resource our Armed Forces to meet that commitment?

Throughout the SDSR there were a series of statements about numbers of ships, although fewer about numbers of aircraft. We heard about changes to the size of the Army and about a different way of approaching the carrier. Otherwise, are all the commitments in the SDSR fully funded in the plan referred to by the Statement?

I am amazed at the brilliance of the Government. About a year ago, there were what seemed to be extremely well informed rumours in the press—in the Times and the Daily Telegraph, which are normally well connected—that the Government in the SDSR had created a plan that was underfunded by more than £1 billion per annum. May I assume from the Statement that by some miracle the problem about which defence chiefs or their agents briefed the press—the massive gap between what was aspired to and the money available—has been bridged? I cannot see, without any new cuts being described and without any changes other than those mentioned, how it has been bridged.

We know that a very large number of civil servants—about one-third—will disappear. In my career I purchased a large amount of materiel. It was not for the military but for the railways. The essence of doing that efficiently is not underfunding professional capability but if anything overfunding it to get the right contracts, structures and monitoring. Will the Civil Service, after these massive cuts, have the capability to keep hold of this plan and deliver on it?

I find this to be an incredible aspiration, and an incredible Statement that is impossible to judge. I look forward with bated breath to the NAO report and its judgment on whether it will work. I hope that the Minister, in spite of not yet having the report, will be able to assure us that the Statement really means that there will be no more cuts to equipment programmes for the Armed Forces for the next decade.

Afghanistan: Troop Levels

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I start by associating these Benches with the condolences extended to the families and friends of the five soldiers who died recently in Afghanistan. I thank the Minister for reading out the five names. This has been a long and expensive mission, but above all we must bear in mind when we discuss these matters the enormous price paid by those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in this campaign. I also join the Minister in his reference to the wounded who will be paying for this mission for the rest of their lives.

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and join unambiguously in the tribute contained in it to the commitment, professionalism and bravery of the men and women who have served, are serving or are yet to serve in Afghanistan. I also repeat unambiguously the consistent support of these Benches for the mission in Afghanistan and, indeed, our general support for the careful reduction in forces that this Statement touches upon.

I want to touch on three areas on which I think the House needs reassurance. The first is the safety of our troops in this period of withdrawal, the second is the planning for the transitional period and the third is something that we must continue to bear in mind, which is: what sort of Afghanistan are we trying to create?

Touching first on the safety of our troops, the Statement states that,

“reflecting the reduction in the need for ISAF ground-holding capabilities as transition progresses and the Afghans take over positions, the majority of the 500 being withdrawn will be combat troops”.

I do not have an in-depth knowledge of the military, but from my experience, it seems very difficult to withdraw from combat and to hand over not to troops that you have trained with or of the same philosophy but to a brand new army. It seems to me that this is an area where a flank is exposed and where there is real risk. Can I have an assurance from the Minister that we have meticulously planned this transition from our securing the combat situation to the Afghans securing it and are doing it in a way that does not expose our people to new dangers?

The Statement speaks of withdrawing some combat capability. Will the Minister outline what combat capability is being withdrawn and assure us that the withdrawal of that combat capability in no way endangers the troops we will be leaving behind and that appropriate combat support capability will remain so that the 9,000 troops still there will be properly protected?

The Statement also speaks of 200 combat troops being transferred from ground-holding roles to security force assistance teams working with the Afghan National Army. Can we have an assurance that proper procedures are in place to protect those people from the very unfortunate incidents that have occurred with troops working with the Afghan army? Do the Afghans have the right procedures in place to make sure that there are no rogue individuals putting our people at risk?

Can I have an assurance that our people are not going to be unreasonably exposed by the proportionately more rapid rundown of other ISAF nations’ troops? One particularly thinks of the US, but in France there is about to be a presidential election and there is every possibility that as a result of that there may be a discontinuous commitment from the French. Is that taken account of? Are our people going to be secure?

Moving into the transitional period, we have put a great deal of money into Afghanistan and a significant amount of the equipment of the Army, in particular, is in Afghanistan. How advanced are the plans to withdraw that equipment, particularly in the light of the delicate and fragile relationship with Afghanistan’s neighbours? Are routes being secured? Will they be robust? Is there sufficient diversity to make sure that that considerable investment in equipment can be safely withdrawn?

Turning to the future of Afghanistan, the Statement says that we are going to run—quite a strong word—the Afghan national army officer training academy. That sounds like a very considerable commitment. Will the Minister give us some feel for just how big a commitment it will be? At first sight, it seems like building Sandhurst in Kabul. Is it a commitment of that order? If so, we welcome it because this army has to take over a very difficult task when ISAF withdraws.

Although I am not suggesting the policy is wrong, there is another area of concern. Will the Minister detail what combat support capability will be left from ISAF and the UK after the end of 2014? Is it none, and do the Afghans have appropriate high-technology support capability to support themselves—I think particularly of air power, other precision weapons and other technically difficult areas—or will we have a remaining role in that area?

An area about which there is widespread concern in the wider debate on Afghanistan is whether we have done enough on governance. We have clearly done a pretty good job on the army by now. We and our allies have worked at that, and it seems to be bearing fruit, but the root of the Afghan problem seems to be a wider issue about governance. Have we done enough to help build governance? Will the systems of administration and law be robust enough against the slings and arrows that will inevitably be thrown at them when ISAF withdraws from its combat role?

An even bigger question is whether we have done enough, or has enough been done, to secure a political solution, a political agreement, between the parties in Afghanistan, which have to be more than just the present Government, to secure agreement? It is seen as a prerequisite that this must be achieved before ISAF’s combat withdrawal. Particularly, it is seen as a prerequisite that such a political agreement must not only take account of the Afghan Government and the Afghan people who are not presently in the political regime—almost inevitably drawing in the Taliban—but the key relationship with Afghanistan’s neighbours that must be secured if we are to have stability in that country in the future.

Finally, I agree with the Minister that in all these deliberations, we must have regard for our brave men and women who are serving in Afghanistan now and those who will serve between now and the end of 2014.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, we on these Benches are content that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, is not going to press his amendment, and we are content with the outcomes on this issue. This is the last chapter in the Armed Forces Bill, and we are pleased with where it has got to. We are pleased on this issue and on the other issues where concessions have been achieved. It has been very pleasing that the Bill has engaged all sides of the House, and the contribution made by noble and gallant Lords in this specialist area has been particularly useful and has added to our debate, improving the outcome. That is also true of other people with significant service experience who have contributed.

I, too, thank the Minister for the way in which he has handled the Bill, and I thank his staff. We on the opposition Front Bench have been able to give the Bill proper scrutiny, much of it in private, which has saved time in the House, because of the co-operation that we have had. We are impressed and delighted, like everybody else, with the way in which the Minister has handled and crafted the concessions. However, it is a matter of raw political reality that this concession has come forward because of the fear of defeat in the Division Lobbies. Many of us have worked in government and we know the importance that the political reality of defeat brings to discussions. I am sure that the Minister has taken this pressure and used it very carefully. It is a matter of raw political reality that, without the fear of defeat, the PJM medal would not be worn this Remembrance Day, and it is highly probable that without the pressure of potential defeat in the Lobbies many other concessions would have not come forward.

This is a good Bill about just causes, and it is a good Bill because it has been a product of very good debates, but it is also a good Bill because of the political pressure that we have brought to bear from these Benches. The House can be properly and justly proud of this Bill, and we on these Benches are proud of our contributions.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

I would like to thank all noble Lords and particularly noble and gallant Lords for their work, and also my noble friend the Minister. The point that I would like to make is that acceptance of the Malaysian medal was approved; it was wearing it that was not. That was a rather strange situation. My only comment at the lateness of this hour is to hope that my noble friend the Minister enjoys wearing his medal at the earliest opportunity.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I rise as someone with no military medals, though my late father had some. I find it incomprehensible that we are not proud that service people fighting for this country were awarded medals by one of our Commonwealth nations. If we are proud that they should be awarded such medals, why should they not be allowed to wear them? It seems incomprehensible that they are not. We talk in your Lordships' House about the cost of this and the cost of that—I was told that the cost of national defence medals would be higher than I imagined—but the cost of doing this is nothing other than perhaps a dent in some civil servant’s pride. There is no reason why this House should not encourage the Government to allow people to wear medals such as the PJM medal.

Having been awarded a medal from a Commonwealth country, the recipient does not have to wear it. There is no saying that if you have received a medal from a Commonwealth country of which you might, for current reasons, disapprove you have to wear it, but the idea that you cannot wear it seems anathema.

The Bill has to go to the other place. It is not on this one amendment that it may ping-pong. Therefore, contrary to my normal loyalties to the coalition, I will vote with the noble, valiant Lords in favour of the amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I listened to the debate on medals in Grand Committee. I said at the end of it that our position was neutral but that I had found many of the arguments very persuasive. I have read the letter from the Minister of 23 September and welcome it as far as it goes. It is good that there is to be a review, and I am pleased that it will be relatively rapid. I apologise for not being present on Report, but I have carefully read the debate in Hansard. As a consequence, I assume that, arising out of those debates and that letter, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, and his colleagues have produced what is now a very narrow amendment about a particular anomaly.

We have taken enough time on this; I shall not repeat the arguments except to say that I unknowingly applied the test described by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, to a peculiar group of people called the opposition Whips. I tried to explain to them that we were going to debate how the King of Malaysia had presented a medal to British soldiers, how the Queen through Her Majesty's Government had agreed that they could accept it, and how they were not then allowed to wear it. It took me 10 minutes to convince them that I was being serious, especially, as I recollect from Committee, there is one day or one week when the soldiers are allowed to wear the medal.

We will support Amendment 8. I take this opportunity to say how flexible and how positive the Minister, his fellow Ministers and their team have been throughout the Bill. I earnestly invite him to maintain that theme and accept the amendment. Unfortunately, if he is unable to do so and there is a Division on it, we will join the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, and his colleagues in the Lobby.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, does my noble friend not think that we should also point to how these actions will be seen in Malaysia, which is a very important country that is deeply attached to ours? We have very strong links in higher education and business. It seems to me needlessly insulting of the people of Malaysia to do this.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I concur with that comment.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I have a dilemma. Some colleagues have suggested that I should go back to the beginning and start again. That would be a bit onerous. On the other hand, I have a note from Hansard asking for my speaking notes, which is a bit premature because I have more to say.

The education and training provided to minors in the Armed Forces not only must be adequate for their immediate situation but should ensure that they have the necessary qualifications to succeed at work within and outside the Armed Forces for the rest of their lives. If young recruits do not gain recognised transferable qualifications while in the Armed Forces, they are likely to encounter far greater difficulties finding employment if and when they return to civilian life. Despite the vital importance of education, the MoD has stated that it does not keep any comprehensive record of the qualifications achieved by minors in service. The amendment seeks to redress this absence and to ensure that adequate standards are met.

While the Armed Forces have always been proud of the educational opportunities that they provide for young recruits, recent evidence indicates that the basic educational provision for minors may now be falling behind the levels expected in mainstream education. Minors training at the specialised Army Foundation College in Harrogate study a very limited academic curriculum, covering English, maths and IT only, at a level equivalent to a low-grade GCSE pass. They do not study for GCSEs, A-levels, BTECs or similar qualifications. It should be noted that this is in contrast to the excellent academic results achieved at the Welbeck Defence Sixth Form College, where students who are not Armed Forces personnel but who wish to pursue a career in the forces study a range of A-level subjects alongside military-style training to prepare them for a future military career.

Would it not be more beneficial for both recruits and the Armed Forces if the career entrance path for minors was focused on education until recruits reach 18? Vocational training leading to recognised transferable qualifications could form the basis of education for recruits who are less academically inclined. Once again, I suggest a comprehensive assessment of data on this issue is necessary in order to ensure that the MoD is fully discharging its obligations towards minors in its care and employment. The need to ensure that recruits enlisting as minors do not suffer disadvantage as a result is made more acute by the fact that the majority of those enlisting below the age of 18 come from socially and economically disadvantaged backgrounds. These young people seek an opportunity to improve their prospects and make something of their lives. The Armed Forces have the potential to make this happen, but, I would argue, only if adequate attention is given to the recruits’ long-term needs. Minors who leave mainstream education early in order to enlist must be guaranteed adequate training and qualifications. Education has long been recognised as the path out of poverty and social deprivation. Failure to ensure that young recruits complete a thorough education will condemn them to long-term disadvantage.

While the majority of minors joining the Armed Forces each year enjoy the experience and wish to stay, we have to recognise that a significant minority do not. Last year alone 27 per cent of recruits enlisting as minors dropped out of initial training. This is significantly higher than drop-out rates for older recruits, which it seems average at 15 per cent. In the financial year 2009-10, one in three minors left within a year of enlisting. The high drop-out rate is important in this context for two reasons. First, it demonstrates the importance of ensuring that young recruits gain adequate qualifications to pursue a career outside the armed services. Secondly, it places an obligation on the MoD to ensure that minors leaving its care make a successful all-round transition to civilian life. Evidence shows that early service leavers—service personnel who leave without completing their minimum period of service—are at greater risk of experiencing difficulties making the transition successfully to civilian life. This includes greater susceptibility to homelessness and criminality. Despite their greater vulnerability, early service leavers are entitled only to reduced resettlement support compared with longer-serving personnel. The high and rapid drop-out rate of minors means that they constitute a high percentage of early service leavers. Therefore, I argue that the MoD should pay particular attention to ensuring that they make a successful return to civilian life both in the short and longer term. Once again, specific data are needed to demonstrate that this duty of care is being fulfilled.

In the present economic climate the high drop-out and discharge rate of minors in the Armed Forces also places an obligation on the MoD to demonstrate that the expenditure on recruiting and training recruits at high risk of dropping out is a financially sound policy. Adequate data are required to demonstrate that these resources are well spent both on those recruits who leave the armed services as well as those who remain.

Finally, recognising that under UK law minors cannot have a contract enforced against them, it is important that recruits who enlist below the age of 18 should be required to re-enlist upon attaining legal majority. This is why my noble friends’ Amendment 22 is so important. Indeed, the British Armed Forces Federation stated in its evidence to the Armed Forces Bill Select Committee that the current system,

“does not adequately provide informed consent as an adult”,

and suggested that minors should reaffirm their enlistment at, or shortly after, their 18th birthday. Such a system would ensure that all Armed Forces personnel are serving on the basis of free, informed adult consent. It would also relieve parents of the moral burden of responsibility for their child’s service—a particularly poignant issue in the case of those who are killed or gravely injured. I beg to move.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 6, 8 and 22, the latter of which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Rosser. The Committee will be relieved to hear that I intend to speak briefly as it seems to me that the burden is very much on the Government to explain their position on these matters and give appropriate assurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has raised some extremely serious issues on Amendments 6 and 8. I look forward to the Minister’s response to those issues. We will consider his response and judge whether to support those amendments on Report. However, I put down a marker to the Government that we will be looking to hear a very good response, otherwise we will probably support the amendments on Report.

I would like to make clear that the Opposition are not against people under 18 serving in the Armed Forces. We think it can be good for those young people and for the Armed Forces. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just so eloquently set out, there must be the right safeguards. There are obvious safeguards to do with combat and other issues that we believe are in place—and of course we will be constantly seeking assurances that they are in place—but we think Amendments 6 and 8, as a basis for reporting, and our Amendment 22, tie the whole thing together.

We have been assured privately that there are mechanisms in place whereby all young people under the age of 18 are able to leave the Armed Forces at any point up to their 18th birthday if they wish to. That is an absolutely key safeguard but it is a safeguard with which we are uncomfortable. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has hit the nail on the head: there is no process for informed consent. There is no clear process of audit. We believe that the proper way forward is an affirmative, signed statement by that young person that they wish to continue their service in the Armed Forces, and we will be pressing this point on Report unless we can be convinced by the Minister between now and then that such a clause is not required in the Bill.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

My Lords, I would like to speak to these amendments but this also gives me the opportunity of giving my sincere apologies to the Committee for not attending Second Reading. It was for family reasons and I did notify the Minister.

The accountability of any employer, including the Armed Forces, to young people is essential. In the Armed Forces I think it is even more essential. I do not know if the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has been to Harrogate. I have been on a number of occasions and I was extremely encouraged by the work being done there with young people. For the first time in their lives, for many of them, someone was taking an interest in them, investing time and money in them. In fact, if they left the services at 18 they would have been in a far better position to get employment than they would have been if they had been left in the streets where they were—and many of them told me that. When I met them, many of them told me that they would go on leave at weekends and they were quite often glad to get back because they realised what a cul-de-sac their life had been before they joined the Armed Forces.

There is a responsibility and I welcome this discussion, but I would not like to see attached to that any kind of assertion that the Armed Forces have been irresponsible with young people—because they have not. Indeed, I would also refer to A-levels. Many of these kids, boys and girls, go into the services because they have no chance of getting any further education; it is not within their sights. Their parents do not encourage them, the community they live in does not encourage them, and if you said, “You’re coming in here and you’re going to go away with A-levels”, they would run a mile; they would not join up. It is very important that we handle this sensitively. We have an accountability and maybe including a reference to it in the covenant report is the way to deal with it. I would certainly welcome that, and would welcome not tying youngsters in so they feel they cannot get out if they find it is not for them.

However, it would be wrong in Committee for it not to go on the record that the training that the young people get in Harrogate is good and gives them confidence in life they would not have got elsewhere. One of the bugbears I remember having as chair of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body some years ago was that the services did very good training but they did not keep a record of it; they did not have accreditation that could be used outside in employment. That has changed considerably—a lot of progress has been made—but if we could make sure that the investment that goes into the youngsters and what they give back was recorded and was available, it would help broaden their lives but would also recognise more fully the good work that the Armed Forces do with young people.

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[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, before I respond to these amendments, I should declare two interests—one as President of the Council of Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations and the other as Colonel Commandant of the Yeomanry.

The amendments in this group all deal with the matter of under-18s serving in the Armed Forces. I welcome the efforts of noble Lords in reminding us that the welfare of those who join under the age of 18 is very important indeed and I thank all those who have moved amendments and spoken today. I can assure your Lordships that the Ministry of Defence is well aware of the need to ensure that these young people live and work in an environment which safeguards their interests and wellbeing, and I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, for their helpful and positive comments to this effect. I welcome the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean. Things have been improving and will continue to improve, but we can always do better.

A great deal of close attention has been focused on this whole area in recent years, especially after the tragic deaths at Deepcut. We now have robust and effective safeguards in place to ensure that under-18s are cared for properly. Moreover, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, suggested and I can confirm, no service person under the age of 18 is to be deployed on any operation which will result in them becoming engaged in or exposed to hostilities. And recently we announced a change to the right of discharge for those under the age of 18. I shall come back to this in a moment.

Through Amendment 6, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, seeks to include service personnel under the age of 18 as being within the group covered by the Armed Forces covenant report, which is a laudable objective. However, the guidance accompanying the Armed Forces covenant, which we published on 16 May, is quite explicit. It states that:

“Special account must be taken of the needs of those under 18 years of age”.

I can assure noble Lords that we will not forget this aspect of our responsibilities for service personnel. The Armed Forces covenant report is to be a report about the effects of service on servicepeople, so as regards Amendment 6, minors under the age of 18 are already within the definition of servicepeople in the clause. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that.

As regards Amendment 8, I have some difficulty with the wording proposed. Not only would the amendment require the Secretary of State to give particular consideration every year to the effects of service on those under 18 years of age, it would also require him to have particular regard to those effects right through until the individuals in question became veterans. It would oblige us to treat those who joined under the age of 18 as a separate category throughout their service, and perhaps even throughout their lives. I hope it will be apparent to noble Lords that that is not an appropriate distinction to build into legislation.

I turn now to Amendment 22, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. This provides that service personnel under the age of 18 will be required to confirm in writing that they wish to continue serving in the Armed Forces after their 18th birthday. This must be done at least three months before their birthday. As noble Lords will know, it has long been our policy to enable service personnel under the age of 18 to reconsider their choice of a career in the Armed Forces up until their 18th birthday, and indeed for three months afterwards if they have already declared their unhappiness. To that effect, we are travelling in the same direction as the noble Lord. In fact, these informal arrangements have provided our under-18s with six months more to think about whether they have made the right choice of career than would the amendment. But following a review of our discharge policy for the under-18s, this has been converted into a legal right. A regulation was introduced on 12 July this year for each of the Armed Forces to provide a new statutory right for all service personnel to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. This new regulation is separate from and additional to the long-standing legal right of all new recruits, regardless of age, to discharge within their first three to six months of service, depending on their service, if they decide that serving in the Armed Forces is not a career for them.

Under the new regulation, everyone under the age of 18 serving in the Armed Forces already has a right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. For the first six months of service this is achieved by giving not less than 14 days’ notice in writing to their commanding officer after an initial period of 28 days’ service. At any other time after six months’ service, those under the age of 18 who wish to leave their service must give notice in writing to their commanding officer, who must then discharge the under-18 within the next three months. For those who give notice just prior to their 18th birthday, this means that the latest they will be discharged is at 18 years and three months of age.

The new right of discharge includes a cooling-off period to avoid the unintended consequence of a decision made in the heat of the moment. A shorter period may be agreed with the commanding officer, but three months provides the serviceperson under 18 with a period of due reflection, with appropriate guidance and the right to rescind their request for discharge. The amendment proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Tunnicliffe, adds no protection for those under 18 who are serving, and would put a staffing burden on the chain of command that I hope they will accept is unnecessary. The right of discharge is made clear to all service personnel on joining the Armed Forces. We wish to continue to ensure that those young men and women who wish to serve in the Armed Forces are able to do so, while those who realise that a service career is not for them can leave as a right. On this basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, will the noble Lord be kind enough to send me and interested Members of the Committee a copy of that regulation, and deposit a copy in the Library?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I will be very happy to do that.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to this group of amendments. The right reverend prelate the Bishop of Wakefield made a nice point when he said that there is a resonance in so much of what we have been talking about today. There is a consensus around the Committee that the Bill as it stands does not firm up the covenant provisions enough. I share the aspiration that the Government should come forward with proposals, and I have to tell them that we will be looking at the points which have been made in this debate. If the Government do not come up with proposals today, it is extremely likely that we will seek consensus on an amendment to be tabled at the Report stage to try to capture the way this debate has gone.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for explaining his amendment, and we will look at it in the light of the Minister’s reply. It is a complex and subtle area, and we shall take a view on how it might form part of our general approach. Turning to the two amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, this is an absolutely crucial area which the Government have to sort out. I do not agree that the covenant is in such a dire state. I think that we have made progress, both this Government and the previous Government. I commend the way that this Government have carried it forward, but it would be a disaster if we were to actually achieve it and end up with an England-only covenant. Amendments 14 and 15 may not be the right mechanisms but the Government must come up with a satisfactory mechanism to make sure that this is an all-GB covenant.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I want to start by assuring all noble Lords, noble and gallant Lords and the right reverend Prelate that we are listening very carefully and we will reflect very seriously on everything that has been said today before Report.

Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and Amendment 15, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, take up a similar theme. The first half of each amendment requires the annual report to state what contribution has been made by other departments across Whitehall and in the devolved Administrations.

With regard to the contribution made by Whitehall departments, I believe that the point has already been answered in my response to my noble friend Lord Lee when we discussed Amendment 9. Although the report will be that of the Secretary of State, it will reflect the views of the Government as a whole and it will have been approved by the Government as a whole. There is no need to make that a statutory requirement.

The role played by the devolved Administrations is clearly different. We have always recognised that all the devolved Administrations should be engaged in the preparation of the report. We will invite their contributions and comments. We will make sure that we fully understand and take into account their reactions to anything we propose, and in particular whether they will support and implement what we propose. They have a place on the covenant reference group, which will be closely involved with the report. For example, if the annual report says something about healthcare in Scotland it must do so with the full involvement of the Scottish Government. The published report would naturally make this clear. Again, I do not believe that should be a matter of statute.

The second part of the two amendments requires the Secretary of State to declare what duties have been laid upon government departments and the devolved Administrations in cases where special provision is justified. I can envisage circumstances in which the annual report might do exactly that. But it will not always be possible to do so. It may take time to work out the right approach, or the solution may not be affordable for the moment. In some cases, implementation will not be a case of the Westminster Government laying duties on other bodies. It would be wrong to impose on the Secretary of State a statutory duty which, quite legitimately, he may be unable to fulfil.

I recognise the concern of noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords that the annual report may state conclusions, but have no teeth. They may see a risk of it being ignored due to resource or other considerations. I also recognise that it will be more difficult to produce the report if we do not have the co-operation of all the responsible authorities across the United Kingdom. Naturally, I very much hope that such a situation will not arise. Commitment to the Armed Forces covenant is strong across government and the United Kingdom. The record shows that we can work effectively with all the departments concerned. I believe we should proceed on the basis that those productive relationships will continue.

Amendment 14 highlights an important aspect of the Armed Forces covenant and the way it interacts with our constitution. In many cases special provision, in response to the effects of service in the Armed Forces, will not be a simple matter of issuing an edict from Whitehall. Responsibility may fall within the discretionary powers of local authorities or other local delivery bodies. More particularly, in terms of this amendment, it may fall to the devolved authorities in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. Special provision for veterans in the areas of health or housing, for example, as has been mentioned, could fall into this category.

The key to success will, of course, be the quality of dialogue. The devolution settlement requires us to work closely together with devolved bodies. Whitehall officials are in regular contact with their opposite numbers and working relations are good. I repeat: working relations are good. Ministers in Edinburgh and Cardiff have underlined their commitment to the Armed Forces covenant. The situation in Northern Ireland is more complex but we are confident that we can maintain a fruitful dialogue to achieve our aims. We have, for example, succeeded in introducing the new arrangements for scholarships for bereaved service children across all the countries of the UK. The new transition protocol for injured personnel, designed to improve the handover of care from the military to civilian services, will be applied in all four countries. These cases show that the system operates effectively.

I welcome the reference in the amendment to special provision being “broadly the same” in the different countries of the United Kingdom. It is important to recognise that there is no virtue in complete uniformity here. Special provision clearly implies a divergence from the normal regime. Since the normal regime may differ in different countries of the United Kingdom, the nature of special provision may also have to differ. It is the outcome which matters; that is, making sure that we are doing the right thing for our people and honouring the Armed Forces covenant right across the UK.

The Government are sympathetic to the idea of consistency. However, the amendment takes the annual report several stages further than we envisage. It may not be possible, at the time of the publication, to set out detailed proposals for implementing the special provision that the Secretary of State considers to be justified in England or elsewhere. I can, nevertheless, give noble Lords, and the noble and gallant Lord, two assurances which I hope will respond to the points that they made. First, the annual report will contain references to the contributions which have been received in its preparation. Secondly, where the Secretary of State reaches the conclusion that special provision is justified, the annual report will seek to take into account the position across the United Kingdom. I hope on the basis of these assurances that the noble Lord will not press his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

23: Clause 9, page 7, line 36, at end insert—
“( ) The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 is amended as follows—
(a) in Part 4 (shipping: alcohol and drugs), omit section 90 (crown application, &c);(b) in Part 5 (aviation: alcohol and drugs), omit section 101 (military application).”

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I want to make one or two general points about the approach to the Bill. We have a role as the Official Opposition to scrutinise the Bill thoroughly clause by clause. This is a particularly important role for the House of Lords and one we feel we need to discharge. In the event, Members of the Committee will note that only two amendments relate to clauses beyond Clause 2. I want the Committee to be in no doubt that this has nothing to do with the sloth of Her Majesty’s Official Opposition or other Members of the Committee, but is a commendation to the Minister and his officials on the very extensive consultation we have had, and the fact that many of the concerns we raised about the Bill have now been handled. We have been given assurances, so there is no need to bring forward amendments. I also particularly want to thank Mr Morrison for a long and complicated telephone conversation with me. I am not a member of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, a lawyer or a former Minister in the Ministry of Defence, so frankly I did not understand how service law sits alongside normal criminal law. I thank him for taking me through it so painstakingly. It was particularly in pursuit of this clause that I sought his advice.

The basic rule is that service law and the criminal law of the land sit side by side. In round terms, a serviceman is answerable to the law of the land, and Clause 24 extends it to overseas, which seems complicated but is really very simple. A serviceman has to obey the criminal law and, broadly speaking, must obey service law on top of that. This part of the Bill is unique in that service personnel are excepted from a piece of the law which applies to civilians, and that is the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003. Certain sections of that Act specifically except the military. The Explanatory Notes at paragraphs 36 and 37 highlight the fact that there is an exception. My first question is: why was this exception necessary? The Act itself is beautifully straightforward. I will not go into the railway area because it forms so small a part of military activity that it is not worth mentioning. How it relates to shipping is also extremely straightforward. Basically, the Act applies to,

“(a) a professional master of a ship,

(b) a professional pilot of a ship, and

(c) a professional seaman in a ship while on duty”.

The aviation part of the Act states that an offence is committed if,

“(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when his ability to perform that function is impaired because of drink or drugs”.

An aviation function is defined simply as,

“acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight”.

Various other categories are mentioned, including members of cabin crew and air traffic controllers. It is difficult to understand why it was necessary to except the Armed Forces from this Act. I would have thought that, as a generality, one would not want the pilot of an aircraft, whether it be a military or civil craft, to have his performance impaired by alcohol. My basic proposal is to delete these two exceptions and to ask why they were necessary in the first place.

It seems that the Ministry of Defence has had second thoughts and sees the necessity of bringing a similar law into effect, which will be the effect of the various clauses set out in the Bill that relate to alcohol. However, a rather difficult idea is introduced. Instead of prescribing the roles and acts along the lines of the civilian law, the Bill states that a duty may only be prescribed if its performance while the ability to do so is impaired through alcohol and carries the risk of,

“(a) death;

“(b) serious injury to any person;

“(c) serious damage to property; or

“(d) serious environmental harm”.

The beauty of the Act is that it is extremely clear about what activities it applies to. The service law should be equally clear.

The issue of drink and safety-critical activities is close to my heart. I had an early career in aviation and then one in the railway industry. When I joined the railway industry, there were serious problems with drink and safety-critical activities. It is now a leader in the country in having a very strong campaign that has driven drink out of the industry in safety-critical areas. To do that, it uses not only the 2003 Act but also random testing. My second concern that I put to the Minister is this. In seeking to bridge the gap—obviously the department has felt it necessary to move into testing—why do the Government not produce a simpler piece of law by essentially adopting the Act and removing the exceptional clauses? Secondly, why do they not write into the Act—if they feel the need to do this by an Act—the capability of random testing, which has proved so effective in the railway industry and has contributed so significantly to the improvement in safety? I beg to move.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, on behalf of the Bill team, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for his very generous words at the start of his speech. In putting forward Amendment 23, the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Rosser, bring personal experience of the operation of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 in the civilian environment, which is helpful to the Committee in considering the provisions for the Armed Forces set out in the Bill.

First, I will say something about our general approach when looking at whether to apply to the Armed Forces legislation that is aimed primarily at civilians and civilian institutions. In some areas of law, we follow closely—and in some cases apply directly—the general law that applies to civilians. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said, this is most notable in the application of the criminal law and many aspects of criminal procedure and evidence. However, noble Lords will accept that the circumstances of Armed Forces life, and the need to ensure the highest standards of operational effectiveness, mean that we have to look very carefully at whether we need different provisions and solutions for the Armed Forces.

The Railways and Transport Safety Act applied the sensible principle of giving powers to test on the basis of a reasonable ground to suspect that someone carrying out navigational and other transport-related activities has taken drugs or alcohol. The Bill adopts this basic approach. However, in deciding what to put in place, we have also considered two special aspects of service life and defence needs. First, members of the Regular Forces, and members of the reserves when they are with the Armed Forces, are on duty or on call for duty 24 hours a day. Secondly, the range of their safety-critical duties is extremely wide. On operations and in training, members of the Armed Forces are constantly dealing with danger and with dangerous equipment and activity.

The approach we decided on includes a number of special aspects in response to these factors. It allows a commanding officer, with reasonable cause, to consider the testing of anyone under his command to establish whether they are unfit through drink or drugs to carry out any duty which they may be expected to carry out and which the commanding officer considers is safety-critical. In addition, it allows specific limits to be set by regulations for any safety-critical duty. This will allow us to develop a comprehensive regime for drugs and alcohol safety over the whole range of military functions.

There is another important difference from the civilian provisions. As I have mentioned, members of the Armed Forces are always subject to be called on to carry out duties. Many of them are living permanently on base and there is no easy way of saying whether, at any one moment, they are on duty or off duty. Moreover, the likelihood of their being called on to carry out dangerous tasks varies greatly in practice between locations—between Afghanistan and places of rest and recreation. We considered carefully how to avoid a necessarily wide power to test from becoming oppressive.

To deal with this, we have provided that it is the commanding officer who will decide, for example, when and whether those under his command are likely to be called on to carry out dangerous tasks. This will allow the chain of command to apply reasonably flexible policies on testing between different theatres and locations. By taking this approach we have tailored the scope and application of drug and alcohol testing to fit service life and needs. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I note what the Minister has said and will read his words with care. I am less than convinced by the argument about always being on duty. The words that have been put forward are about specific tasks and it is entirely possible to bring this more in line with the 2003 Act. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 23 withdrawn.

RAF Northolt: Commercial Flights

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend, but we have no plans to extend the runway. Any proposals for development of RAF Northolt would need to be considered on their individual merits, taking into account defence requirements as well as economic and environmental considerations and the impact on the local community.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I should like to associate these Benches with the Minister’s condolences to the families and friends of Colour Sergeant Alan Cameron and Captain Lisa Head, both of whom died as a result of injuries sustained in Afghanistan. I should also like to associate these Benches with the Minister’s thoughts and tributes regarding the wounded.

The exchange that we have just heard might lead one to the view that Northolt is being seen as, shall we say, a stealth third runway for Heathrow. That would not be an uncontroversial idea. Can the Minister assure me that before any decision is taken to significantly increase commercial traffic there will be a full impact analysis of the effect on surface transport and aircraft noise as well as of any other environmental effects?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the impact on the local population needs to be considered before any changes are made, and I do not underestimate their concern about the adverse impact of any potential increase in the number of civil movements above the 7,000 per year limit. Commitments have been made previously to consult prior to any increase above the current ceiling, and I am happy to repeat the commitment to consult appropriately now.

HMS “Endurance”

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I should like to associate these Benches with the condolences offered to the family and friends of Lance Corporal Liam Tasker, Lance Corporal Steven McKee and Private Daniel Prior. I should also like to associate these Benches with the very thoughtful tribute that the Minister has paid to the wounded.

Such a satisfactory Answer raises serious problems when asking a further supplementary, but this has been a very sad affair. It is more than two years since “Endurance” was damaged beyond repair and it will not be replaced until May. I gather that in the mean time the task is being carried out by HMS “Scott”. Does the Minister agree that that is not satisfactory since “Scott” is not an ice-breaker, does not carry helicopters and is not armed?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words. As he said, HMS “Scott” is not an ice-breaker and she was only able to undertake operations in areas clear of significant ice risk. We have yet to determine whether the long-term solution for delivering the ice patrol ship capability will be better met through replacing or repairing HMS “Endurance”.