Agriculture Bill: Food Production

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We take this very seriously. I know from my own experience the stresses and strains of the agricultural sector and, indeed, the dangers. I absolutely understand that and that is why we are having a transition, over seven years, from direct payments to a new system. We will bring in tests and trials of the environmental land management scheme and by the end of 2024 we will be ready to launch a national environmental land management scheme in 2025. This is precisely to ensure that there is a sensible transition so that all farmers are clear about what they can do to use the new system to the advantage of the environment and of food production.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Civil Contingencies Secretariat put work in hand to ensure provision of food should there be a catastrophic cyber or cost-type attack on this nation? It started some work on the distribution of food to centres of population should such a thing happen, but I am not sure whether it was continued.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, systems are already in place to ensure that in all potential crises and disasters. It is clearly a key factor, whether it involves medicine, food or veterinary medicine. All are important parts of contingencies that it is our responsibility to take.

Fisheries: EU Landing Obligation (European Union Committee Report)

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

Does the noble Viscount agree that we have insufficient ships within our fishery protection squadron to carry out enforcement at the level he is talking about?

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

First, I am not a Viscount—I should perhaps correct that. However, the answer is at the moment, yes, but I am assured that we are building up to it.

The Government have been slow to grasp the nettle but are moving in the right direction. That is a good thing. In the meantime, bearing in mind that fish are an international commodity, it is important that we try to persuade our neighbours also to pursue and enforce a ban on discards. There is no doubt that the reluctance to enforce the landing obligation is not only a British phenomenon; it seems to be the norm across all EU fishing states. We heard from a Dutch fishing representative, who was adamant that the whole idea was ridiculous, and there was no doubt from our conversation with the fisheries Commissioner that even DG FISH was taking a very softly, softly approach.

However, Brexit gives us an opportunity to lead by example. In spite of the dog’s dinner that will be the fisheries negotiations, I believe that we should end up with at least some extra quota. Thus, it should be possible for us to devise a system of a government-owned reserve of quota, especially in the choke species, while also granting some additional quota to the under-10 and under-15 fleet in order to relieve some of the existing social and economic tensions.

We must then be rigorous in our enforcement of the landing obligation, not only within our own fleet but in relation to EU and other visiting vessels in our waters. To my mind, and clearly to others in the debate so far, that means having compulsory remote electronic monitoring—REM—on every boat. In the argy-bargy of the fisheries negotiations, we should insist on cameras on every boat fishing in our waters. I realise that we will encounter strong opposition, particularly among the French and Spanish, to our desire to enforce the landing obligation. However, the landing obligation is the law, and both the French and the Spanish signed up to it, so there can be no legitimate excuse for them to object to it, or to its enforcement.

It was interesting that during our earlier inquiry, we heard the view that applying universal REM among a whole fleet—for example, in Iceland and Canada—could be a boon to fishermen where choke species were a problem. Because all boats would have instantaneous knowledge of who was catching what and where, they could more easily avoid catching unwanted species. However, I suspect that not telling your fellow fishermen where you go to find your catch is so ingrained in the competitive nature of boat captains that they would probably still prefer to do without this particular aid to avoiding choke species. However, I regret to have to tell them that, if they want international equity in the catching of fish, they will have to accept REM as part of that agenda.

The second aspect of our post-Brexit fisheries that I would like to see is a commitment by the buyers, both processors and supermarkets, to ensuring that all their suppliers always—and I mean always—fish according the highest principles of sustainability. They ought to insist on REM on all their boats. As I see it, only when their marketplace is threatened will the fishing industry as a whole conform.

I am glad that we have produced this follow-up report after our earlier intervention, because there is always a tendency for everyone to focus on an issue for a moment, but then real life reasserts itself and we carry on as usual. Even some of the NGOs, having been very fired up about discards a few years ago, seem to have let this issue slip off their radar, possibly because they thought it was fixed. I believe that for the long-term future of our fishing industry and, more importantly to my mind, the communities it supports, we must not let go of this issue.

Trade Policy: Environmental Aspects

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us when we will provide shore power for merchant ships and ferries which are involved in trade with our nation? This would have huge environmental benefits for us, rather than leaving them running their diesel generators when alongside.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

On transport statistics, again, this is an area where we all need to change the way we do things. We need to concentrate on ensuring that there is greater infrastructure, research and innovation. I will take this point back, because the maritime industry, and perhaps even the Royal Navy, will need to consider how to work together to ensure we get our net zero.

Sustainable Fisheries for Future Generations

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Negotiations require two parties to come together successfully. However, I stress again that one of the principles that we seek is fairness. When one understands the proportion of fish being taken by UK vessels and non-UK vessels and what UK vessels are taking from EU 27 waters, something is not right. There is no fairness, and that is what we need to address. I would be very surprised if EU fishing interests did not understand that this needs to be part of the negotiation. However, clearly it needs to be done in a spirit of collaboration, and part of that concerns sustainability. Whoever fishes them, if there are not enough fish, we—whether the EU 27 or the UK—will not have a dynamic fishing industry. Therefore, it is absolutely imperative that that is at the root of everything.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned enforcement and referred to the five new River-class vessels, one of which is going to the Falkland Islands. It is quite clear that we have insufficient ships to patrol an EEZ if we have to enforce new rules. Also, the JMOCC does not have proper centralised co-ordination. I have talked about that with the Minister before and that has to be in place before the new rules come in. Is it possible to consider using the two River- class vessels that have been put on one side and have not been disposed of, and to man those with reservists so that we can enhance the number of ships without too great a cost? We will need more ships if we are to enforce these new rules.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, many noble Lords will know that the noble Lord and I went to see the MMO in Newcastle and had a very interesting day looking at some of the technology for detecting whether a vessel is aping some other activity but is really fishing. I agree that the Royal Navy plays an important part in enforcement, and it will continue to do so. I am afraid that it is not within my gift to comment on longer-term deployment and the number of vessels, but we are absolutely clear that other third countries are well able to enforce their fisheries policy, and we need to work on a system that works for us.

Northern Forest

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I explained in my earlier reply, this will be a public and private enterprise. There will be a number of ways in which this can be done, including the woodland carbon sequestration fund. There are a number of public tree-planting funds, as well as public and charitable sources.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Admiral Collingwood was very worried about the northern forest and the loss of oak trees because so many had been used to build ships, and he used to walk around with acorns in his pockets. He, like Nelson, was also worried about the lack of frigates because our Navy had only 138 at the time. Does the Minister think that Admiral Collingwood would feel very pleased about the northern forest proposals, but not very happy about the fact that our nation now has 13 frigates?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we have come some way from frigates being built from wood but, wherever we are, we want to plant more trees. The important point about the northern forest is that it is overwhelmingly in an urban area. We are going through all the cities of the north, which means that the environment in those great cities will be enhanced. The northern forest is in parallel with the northern powerhouse initiative, and is great news for all the communities along it.

Brexit: EEZ and Territorial Seas

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what contingency planning they have undertaken to ensure patrolling and enforcement of the United Kingdom’s exclusive economic zone and territorial seas after Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recently established the Joint Maritime Operations Coordination Centre—JMOCC—to co-ordinate sea-based patrol activity across marine agencies to reinforce the security of our waters after Brexit. In respect of fisheries, Defra has assessed the scale and volume of sea-based patrol capability required for Brexit. Defra and the Marine Management Organisation will work through the JMOCC to utilise available resources in partnership with the Ministry of Defence and other agencies.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful Answer and for the discussions we have had about the co-ordination of this. We have a dreadful hotchpotch of vessels and departments involved, and we are responsible for a vast sea area and a hugely long coastline. To somehow get the maximum effect out of the very small number of ships we have, and to overcome the fact that we do not have a proper air surveillance capability and are not using drones properly, it is absolutely necessary to have a study into how we can focus this and use the JMOCC properly—bearing in mind there is also an operations centre in the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the MMO—so we can co-ordinate this and do it properly. At the moment, we will not be able to do it. Is the Minister willing to look at setting up some group to co-ordinate that study so that we have a snowball’s chance in hell of looking after the waters for which we are responsible?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, yes, with 11,000 miles of coastline and an EEZ of 165 square miles, it is a task. That is precisely why, with the Security Minister having overall responsibility for the JMOCC, the whole purpose is to improve the co-ordination of cross-agency patrol capabilities, increase information-sharing across government and enhance aerial surveillance operations. The whole purpose is to ensure co-ordination; the fact that the JMOCC will be co-located with the National Maritime Information Centre will offer us a strong chance to bring all these things together.

Inshore Fisheries

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to police and enforce the new regulations for UK inshore fishing waters.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has a robust enforcement system, delivered by the Marine Management Organisation, or MMO, and the Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities, or IFCAs, in England. The MMO covers the UK’s exclusive economic zone from six nautical miles to 200 nautical miles or the median line, while the IFCAs cover the area from zero to six nautical miles. As we leave the EU, we will need to review and reflect on the level of fisheries enforcement required.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer, but I have to say that this simple sailor is absolutely stunned by it, as it shows amazing complacency. The bottom line is we have very few vessels involved in this and they are not properly co-ordinated centrally. We have already seen a number of the countries involved saying, “To hell with what you say, we’re coming there anyway”. We will be made a laughing stock if we apply some rules and cannot enforce them. Will we now establish a centralised command system to control the various assets we have—far too few of them to be able to focus on things such as someone fishing illegally in the six-to-12 mile zone? Will we also ensure that we build some more ships and boats so that we can actually enforce this?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the best thing may be if the noble Lord would be prepared to come with me to Newcastle to see the vessel-monitoring system, which I have learned a great deal about since his Question was on the Order Paper. It is a digital service which enables us to target those areas, so that we know every vessel that is at sea within our waters. I have some very interesting statistics on enforcement by the Royal Navy and others. In addition to that, not only are there three offshore patrol vessels but a further five new River class offshore patrol vessels are currently being built. They will be used for, among other things, fisheries protection. However, as I said earlier, we will have to review what we need to ensure that.

Animal Welfare: Penalties

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it would be fair to say that most animal welfare organisations would like an increase. However, when I reflect on this, in Northern Ireland, which has been mentioned, of the 66 convictions between 2012 and 2016, only one offender received a prison sentence of more than six months, which was suspended. I have already mentioned the independent sentencing guidelines. With an average custodial sentence of 3.3 months, we are looking to see whether there are ways in which magistrates can have enhanced guidelines.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not true that when one looks into the past of many of those who have been found guilty of either torturing or killing human beings, they have done exactly the same to animals, and there is a linkage?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Cruelty, whether it is to our fellow human beings or to animals is equally reprehensible. There have been such connections, and that is why I think some of the remedies other than imprisonment have been very important, including, in the community orders, things such as programmes to change behaviour, exclusion, curfew, drug treatment and mental health treatment. There are a number of ways in which we can help.

Thames Tideway Project: Contingent Guarantees

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the latter half of my noble friend’s question is quite difficult to answer at this stage. The Written Ministerial Statement referred to the contingencies covered by the support package. There are, for example, measures to deal with situations where claims exceed insurance cover, where economic or political events affect access to debt finance, where there are exceptional cost overruns and where the IP goes into special administration. It allows for discontinuation in certain circumstances and deals with how value for money for taxpayers is to be achieved. I can assure noble Lords that we have kept this to an absolute minimum to ensure a competitive process.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that Thames Water has now put in place all the security measures that were required to ensure that water supplies cannot be easily contaminated or poisoned by terrorists?

[Lord De Mauley]

I cannot answer that specific question. I can say that it is Ofwat’s job to oversee exactly what each water company does, particularly Thames Water.

Drought

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend anticipates a Question on the Order Paper about a national grid for water. Of course, all those matters have been considered by this and other Governments. It has been found that the interconnectivity of water systems is far more cost-effective than building a mainline grid. Water is extremely energy-expensive to pump around. Unfortunately, it does not naturally flow from the north of England to the south-east.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, on that point, has much work been done on the use of operational and non-operational canals to assist in that transfer?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, it has, and to a limited extent they can be used in the interconnectivity projects between water companies. The companies are sharing a great deal and have invested considerable amounts. There has been a recent investment in the north-west of England to relieve a drought there by pumping water from Wales.