Covid-19: Transport for London

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with Transport for London about the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on its revenue and funding.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we are currently in discussions with TfL and the mayor on a further extraordinary funding agreement. My noble friend will agree that the mayor has choices to make to balance the books of TfL. When he has made those choices, they will become conditions attached to support from the UK taxpayer. My noble friend will understand that it would be inappropriate to discuss the details of ongoing discussions at this time.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. With the other place in recess and government support for Transport for London running out tomorrow, this is Parliament’s last opportunity to find out what is going on. Does my noble friend agree that, if giving more powers to mayors and metro mayors is to work, both sides should moderate their language during negotiations and avoid wild accusations; that any support for Transport for London should take us beyond next May’s mayoral elections; and that any government support for Transport for London should be fair to the national taxpayer and proportionate to other parts of the country while leaving the decisions as to how it should be funded to the Mayor of London?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that negotiations between the Government and the Mayor of London—indeed, all mayors—should be based on mutual respect and professionalism. I am pleased to report that, for example, our conversations with the mayor and his team yesterday were very cordial and constructive. The details of the current settlement are still under discussion and we are making good progress. I am pleased to confirm that the Government are committed to the principle that any government funding must be fair to UK taxpayers.

Covid-19: Transport Industry

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of the very difficult situation that the coach industry finds itself in. It is a very diverse sector with, as the noble Lord points out, a large number of family-run businesses. About 80% of revenue in the coach sector comes from tourism, and we are working very hard with DCMS to ensure that where tourism—particularly domestic tourism—can take place, it does. Much of the remaining 20% is home-to-school transport, and the Government have made available £40 million for the first half of this current term, for local authorities to procure extra vehicles.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to the Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in 10 days’ time, the emergency funding that the Government agreed with Transport for London to keep the buses and Tubes running runs out. Can the Minister reassure the House that there will be some agreement thereafter? If the Mayor of London has asked for £5 billion, how will any future burden be shared between the national taxpayer, travellers and London’s council tax payers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend mentions the figure of £5 billion: well, the Mayor of London would say that, wouldn’t he? As part of the first bailout, the Government commissioned a government-led review of TfL’s finances and I am afraid that it did not make happy reading, even prior to the pandemic. Multi-year fare freezes are indeed a great vote winner, but eventually one has to make very difficult choices, so the Government will be ensuring that the Mayor of London makes those choices in order to get TfL back on to a financially sustainable footing so that we can protect the interests of the UK taxpayer.

Holidays: Cancellations

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Wednesday 30th September 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the arrangements in place to compensate customers whose holidays are cancelled.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the challenge consumers and businesses are experiencing regarding refunds for cancelled holidays and flights. We are clear that where a flight or holiday has been cancelled, consumers have a legal right to a refund, which must be paid. The Civil Aviation Authority launched a review into this issue, and as a consequence most airlines are now paying refunds effectively.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. She will be aware that tens of thousands of passengers have complained to the CAA about inexcusable delays in getting compensation for cancelled flights, and that the Consumers’ Association has criticised the CAA, saying:

“It is obvious that the CAA does not have the right tools to take effective action against airlines that show disregard towards passengers and the law”.


Will my noble friend therefore bring in much-needed reforms to enable the regulator to take swift and effective action to protect consumers when the law is broken?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The CAA has a range of powers available to it to take a proportional and pragmatic approach to enforcement. Indeed, a number of conversations have taken place, in particular bilateral engagement between the CAA and individual airlines to encourage them to refund more quickly. The pandemic has highlighted a number of challenges and my department is keen to work with the regulator, industry and consumer groups to learn lessons and make changes in the future.

Railways

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, Network Rail is of course extremely conscious of the changes to our climate and the impact that that might have on infrastructure. The dreadful event that happened at Stonehaven is an ongoing incident and it is being investigated by the RAIB, the ORR and the BTP. We cannot make further detailed comment or speculate at this time, but those investigations continue, and the causes of the accident will be investigated fully.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that any future plans for the railways will not return us to a state-owned monopoly—as has been advocated by some—but keep the franchising principle? This has brought new operators, new ideas and new capital into the railways, and enables the Government to get the best deal for travellers and the taxpayer by the competitive tendering process.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I pay great tribute to my noble friend and his time as Transport Secretary. I had the opportunity to go back and look at some of his words in Hansard from when he was Transport Secretary—I think it was 1995 to 1997. There were also some interesting photographs, which noble Lords might want to have a look at, at some stage. My noble friend is absolutely right that we must retain the benefits of private sector involvement in the railways. That is at the heart of how we can make sure that our railways are as effective as possible. Of course, Keith Williams has looked at all these issues and very much recognises that point. The new model that we are developing will ensure that the railway benefits from all that the private sector has to offer in innovation, customer centricity, investment and so on.

Covid-19: Aviation

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I refer the noble Lord to the response that I have just given about the aviation restart and recovery expert group. It is looking at all the issues that he has, rightly, pointed out, including the impact on the wider supply chain across the aviation sector. Project Birch is not industry-specific but is open to any company that makes a significant economic contribution to our country. It will offer bespoke support to a specific company, and that will be done from a value-for-money perspective for the taxpayer, on a company-by-company basis. In that regard, we will be able to support some of our most important companies that contribute to our economic future.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the challenges facing the UK aviation industry are replicated throughout the world. The International Civil Aviation Organization has set up an aviation recovery task force. It was due to report by the end of last month, setting out policies and priorities for recovery. Can my noble friend tell the House what progress that task force has made and how it relates to the work of the steering group, to which she has just referred?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That is a very good question from my noble friend. The UK is an important member of the ICAO and it plays a leading role in the ICAO Council Aviation Recovery Taskforce, or CART. The CART brings together states and the industry to develop guidance. It published its first report earlier this week, on Tuesday 2 June, and it includes strategic priorities for the aviation sector going forward. I mentioned earlier the common health standards that are being developed by the expert group. Those standards will of course also link into the international health standards that are being developed across various countries, to make sure that air passengers have a seamless end-to-end journey.

Transport Infrastructure

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I was Secretary of State for Transport in 1996, when we gave the go-ahead for HS1—the fast link between St Pancras and the Channel Tunnel. It was opposed by local MPs and challenged through the courts. People said it was too expensive and it was challenged on environmental grounds. People said we should spend the money on local lines instead. Today, not a single Member of your Lordships’ House would argue that HS1 was not the right decision to take. Will it not be the same in 25 years’ time about HS2?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his question, which was not a plant. Last Friday I went on HS1 and had the honour of being in the cab. It was amazing, although they did not let me drive the train. I drove the simulator afterwards. It was striking that when you are in the cab and looking down the track, it is beautiful, it is straight and it works. There is little clutter and you can see that it is modern. Barrelling along at 140 miles per hour, you think, “I could go a bit faster, actually”. I went from St Pancras to Ashford, an area that has been revolutionised. The development there has been amazing. I agree with my noble friend; HS1 was a great boon and HS2 will be, too.

Airports National Policy Statement

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, there is considerable appetite to ask questions; can I make a plea for shorter questions?

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, what is the future for RAF Northolt as this project goes ahead?

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, Clause 10 involves the classic dilemma of taking rights over private property for the greater good. I commend the fact that the clause is there, but whenever such rights are debated, you debate both breadth and reasonableness. I will listen to the response of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, on that breadth with interest, because I think there is a case for an incremental improvement in the breadth and power of this clause.

My three amendments are about the other side of the coin: that the regulations should be reasonable. Amendment 27 seeks assurances on the whole matter of how the regulations shall be reasonably applied. Amendment 42 is about notice. We need to be assured that private owners will not be immediately required to do things and that there is appropriate and adequate notice. Amendment 43 relates to the consultation process being appropriate.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the co-pilot is in charge of this group of amendments. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken to this group and made the case for seeking to expand the scope of Clause 10 beyond the destinations that are so far defined in it.

The amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington—Amendments 21, 23 and 28—seek to expand the scope of Clause 10, so that privately owned large car park operators would also be required to ensure provision of charge points at their premises. A number of noble Lords and Baronesses have spoken in support of that group of amendments. It is important that we carefully consider which location should be captured in Clause 10. As my noble friend highlighted in Committee, we believe that the Government should regulate only where there is a specific need and not where we are confident that market forces will deliver the necessary infrastructure to meet the needs of EV drivers. I seek to reassure noble Lords by giving examples of what is now happening in the private sector.

First, perhaps I can deal with my noble friend’s comment about the London Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. I think it is providing a number of spaces and that the Government are taking the initiative in encouraging it to do better. Indeed, through the Government’s on-street residential scheme, we have just provided funding for 50 additional lamp post charge points to be installed. I hope that is of some reassurance to my noble friend. But we are already seeing the private sector taking the lead, with charge points going in at destinations including car parks and supermarkets, as these locations begin to appreciate the advantages that offering charging facilities will ultimately have in attracting the growing number of EV drivers to their shops or to use their services. For example, NCP, one of the largest car park operators in the UK, already offers charge points at some of its car parks and is investing to grow the number of sites offering this facility.

Electrical vehicle charging points have been installed in car parks at Heathrow Airport and around 500 charge point connectors have been installed in the UK in the last 30 days. The Office for Low Emission Vehicles has also worked closely with the British Parking Association to develop guidance for its members on investing in and installing charging infrastructure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

As I read it, it says that the regulations “may” require. It does not say that they are required. Why, in this particular case, can the Government not simply concede to the amendment? It is not a requirement. It says “may”, so it is up to the Government to decide how they want to proceed.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is reverting to a discussion that I think we had in Committee, when we had a debate on “may” versus “must”.

[Baroness Worthington]

With respect, no. The noble Lord’s point is correct. When the Minister started to discuss this amendment the statement was made that Clause 10 “will require”. It does not. Clause 10 is an enabling power that enables regulations to be made at the Government’s discretion subject to consultation and publication of the zero-emission vehicles strategy, which we are all waiting for and I am sure will contain lots of statements about the need to roll out charging infrastructure to places other than motorway service stations. It is wrong to represent this clause as requiring anything and wrong to miss the opportunity to take a wider enabling power now, otherwise we will have to be back here in six months taking it another time.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I can assure the noble Baroness that it is the Government’s intention to use the powers designated in Clause 10, but we want to consult first on exactly which destinations are included in the definitions. It is our intention to use the powers we seek to have in Clause 10. As I said, the powers we seek would allow the Government to—

[Baroness Worthington]

I am sorry to interrupt again, but could the noble Lord clarify that? The powers will be used and a consultation will be undertaken about which destinations they will apply to, but the Bill is very specific and narrow and says that it will be only large petrol retailers and service station providers. That is the point we are making: it is too narrow. It is not even what is necessary. The Minister has given a long list of private sector movement. Most service stations already have charge points. That is one place where you can find them. We are talking about a much wider, countrywide need, specifically—when we come on to the next group of amendments—a city-led, demand-led process that Clause 10 could enable but does not as drafted.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The consultations I was referring to concern the definition of a large service station. We have not defined that and that is the consultation we want to embark on. Once that consultation has been completed, it is the Government’s intention to use the powers under Clause 10 to make progress and designate areas where we want more charge points.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that point, if it is the Government’s intention to proceed, then the word “may” is not really required. Anyhow, why not leave “may” in and include the words in the amendment? I cannot see what the Government lose by accepting this amendment. It is totally at their discretion as to what happens.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government have made this clear right from the beginning—I shall come on to this in a moment. When we consulted on measures in the Bill we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at sites, such as fuel retailers and service areas, which are already invested in providing services related to vehicle refuelling. That was the basis on which we consulted and the basis on which the Bill was brought forward. What the amendments seek to do, at a very late stage in the Bill, is to broaden the scope very widely, beyond the initial areas we identified, to include a whole lot of others. We do not think that necessary because, as I said a moment ago, the market is responding. These charge points are already being provided in supermarkets and private car parks and the Government want to take powers only where absolutely necessary.

The locations we have chosen, the motorway service areas and the large service stations, are crucial in reducing range anxiety so that drivers can be confident in undertaking long journeys that they will be able to recharge easily and quickly en route. This is an issue that will remain for the longest journey, even with developments in battery technology, so it makes the most sense to ensure that the infrastructure for those journeys is provided for now and in the Bill. We expect that for many journeys range anxiety will fall away as the battery ranges of new electric vehicles increase, reducing the need for recharging every time an EV driver arrives at their destination. For all these reasons, the Government do not believe they need additional powers to regulate in this area.

[Baroness Randerson]

Does the Minister accept that the problem is not just about range anxiety on long journeys? We also have to cater for people who wish to own an electric car but do not have a drive of their own or space in their domestic circumstances to recharge their car. Such people will rely on possible innovative solutions—the idea of using lamp-posts as charging points may be feasible—but also on access to a charging point in the local car park while they are in work, while they are shopping or, indeed, when they go out to the cinema, for example. They will want alternative provision. We are not talking just about long journeys. To be honest, most of us do not spend our whole lives doing long journeys. Most of us are doing local missions, are we not? Therefore, we have to open this market up to people who do not have driveways or access to domestic, on-site recharging.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. The Bill is focused on the longer journeys: that is why it is focused on motorway service areas and the major service area operators. As I said a moment ago, the market is now responding in the way I have outlined to meet the requirements of those motorists who need to recharge somewhere near their home. Progress is being made with providing charging stations at lamp-posts, for example. Following Committee, we have reflected on the debate, which highlighted the need for large fuel retailers and service area operators to be consulted in a way that enables them to fully prepare for future regulations.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the importance of clarity for those retailers in the sector covered by the regulations. We agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that the consultation will help improve the regulations by understanding some of the limitations that these bodies could face in installing charging and refuelling infrastructure, such as grid capacity. We also agree that the consultation will assist in raising awareness among fuel retailers that they will need to consider the future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister refers to long journeys but I think that the biggest market for this product will actually be in the inner cities, where people make short journeys and will want lots of these charging points. That is the reverse of the position taken by the Government. I do not want to drive 100 miles up the M1 and call in at every service station to have a recharge. One wants to use these vehicles in the inner-city areas. The Government seem to have it the wrong way round.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Many people already charge at home. If one looks around the streets just a stone’s throw from the Palace of Westminster one can see an increasing number of charge points, where people who do not have access to home charging can recharge their vehicle. You can recharge your vehicle in the car park at the other end of the building.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Can the Minister say why the mayors are calling for the change in the amendment? They are on the spot in the cities around the country and know the difficulties; they are asking for the change. Why are we refusing it?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The next group of amendments is indeed about the powers that the mayors are seeking, but the Government’s proposal is that those powers should be constrained within the broad terms of the Bill and not extended. We will explain that when we reach the next set of amendments—if we ever get there.

I turn to Amendment 27 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. As stated in Clause 16 and detailed in the policy scoping notes, any regulations brought forward would be informed by consultation with industry, including fuel retailers, motorway service area operators, EV infrastructure providers and operators, and EV manufacturers and drivers. Regulations would need to take into careful consideration the commercial and operational impacts on the organisations that would be directly impacted. For example, detailed regulations would need to take account of: an assessment of current and planned provision at the locations in question; an understanding of the underlying fuel retail and motorway service businesses and the needs of users; and an understanding of the factors which will make particular sites more or less suited to installation and operation of EV infrastructure. In addition, Clause 15 already provides the Secretary of State with powers to create exceptions from any requirement imposed by regulations, which could be used where an expansion of land was required or other disproportionate costs were transferred to retailers and operators.

In relation to the noble Lord’s Amendment 42, consultation would also help inform the Government of the time it would take industry to be compliant with any requirements, and dates for compliance can be written into regulations if necessary. It will be important to address the intention behind the noble Lord’s two amendments as we bring forward regulations. Although we do not believe these amendments are needed, we appreciate his concern that industry must have sufficient time to prepare for any requirements, and we can commit today that where proposals would impose substantial requirements on operators of public charge points, large fuel retailers or service operators, the Government will allow at least six months between the commencement of consultation on the proposals and the coming into force of the relevant provisions of any consequent regulations brought forward under Part 2 of the Bill.

Following Committee, and the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, we have considered whether there is anything further we can do to strengthen our commitment to ensuring that large fuel retailers and motorway service areas are aware of regulations in good time before they are brought forward. My noble friend has tabled government Amendments 44 to 46 to ensure that each time the definitions for “large fuel retailer” and “service area operator” are changed, they are subject to the affirmative procedure to ensure that extra parliamentary scrutiny is afforded to these changes.

Amendment 43, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, seeks to ensure that consultations,

“last for a proportionate length of time”.

We have discussed this in previous stages and the Government believe it is essential to consult before making regulations to ensure that the regulations are both effective and proportionate. That is why we have included a requirement to consult in Clause 16. I completely agree that it is always important to ensure that consultations last for a proportionate length of time. Consulting too quickly will not give enough time for consideration and will reduce the quality of responses. This is why the Government’s Consultation Principles 2018 include precisely this point as one of the principles. The amendment would change the relevant principle into a requirement in the Bill.

We do not believe it is necessary to do that. The Government are already held to account for conducting consultations in line with the consultation principles. There is heavy scrutiny of those responding and of course by Parliament. The Government are also subject to the requirements of public law, and therefore to oversight by the courts, when undertaking consultations of this nature. Therefore, while I fully agree with the importance of ensuring that consultations last a proportionate length of time, I do not think it necessary to turn one of the Government’s principles into a statutory requirement in the Bill.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for raising the topic of ensuring that consultations last a proportionate length of time. I agree on the importance but, for the reasons I have set out, it is not necessary or appropriate to include them in the Bill. I hope that, with the commitments I have given and the government amendments, the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I am sure he will agree that the House has expressed widespread disquiet over the narrowness of this clause. Will the Government commit to continuing conversations between now and Third Reading?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am possibly more aware than anyone else in the Chamber of the strength of feeling that we have had during debate on this issue. I understand where my noble friend is coming from but I would be misleading him if I said that I could give the commitment he asks for.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am afraid that I cannot say I am any clearer or more reassured as to the logic behind the Government’s position on this issue. It feels to me as if, at some point in the distant past, a decision was made on behalf of all EV owners in the country that long-distance journeys were the problem. Where is the evidence that that is the case? What are the Government basing their policy on? Can we see the consultation document which asked, “What is your biggest fear about driving an electric vehicle?” The only consultation I have been able to find had five leading questions related to large fuel retailers and one open-ended question. The analysis of the responses indicates that there is almost no difference between those who supported mandatory provisions on fuel retailers and those who said, “We want them everywhere”. There is no evidence. I urge the Government, please, before Third Reading to come into dialogue to discuss this clause, so that we can get to the bottom of where the evidence is for it. If we can do that, although I reserve the right to bring back an amendment at Third Reading given the widespread support expressed today, then I will be happy to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Young of Cookham]

38: Clause 12, page 7, line 25, leave out “public charging points” and insert “provided for use by members of the general public”

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, Amendment 38 clarifies that Clause 12 would not place regulations directly on domestic users.

Regulations under Clause 12 would ensure the ongoing transmission of data from smart charge points to specified persons: for example, this could be the national grid or distribution network operators. This data can be used to help predict future demands on the grid and local network “hotspots” so that infrastructure is planned as efficiently and cost-effectively as possible. The obligation would fall to the operator of charge points, but it is not intended directly to apply to domestic users.

This amendment is in response to a recommendation from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which suggested that this intention should be made explicit in the Bill.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I want at this early stage to clarify something. Clause 12(1) refers to,

“a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Could that be HMRC?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure whether that derives precisely from the amendment that I am debating, but it is a legitimate question, and I will seek to ensure that before we finish the noble Lord has a response to whether Clause 12(1) applies to HMRC. I am not quite sure why it would, because I do not see how it is directly involved in the power generation business. However, that is an off-the-cuff remark, and an authoritative response will arrive, I hope, before we complete the next group of amendments.

The DPRRC said:

“It is very significant that the powers conferred by clause 12 will allow requirements to be imposed on domestic consumers, enforceable by financial penalties. If, as stated in the memorandum, it is not the Government’s policy for the powers to be used in this way, then we recommend that this limitation should be set out on the face of the Bill”.


These amendments represent no change to policy but provide clarification of the Government’s intent. The transmission of anonymised data from domestic charge points will still be useful to predict demands on the grid, so the obligation could still apply to domestic charge points. However, we expect that this would be done by placing the requirements on organisations which have control of the relevant data: for example, charge point or energy companies.

The amendment demonstrates the Government’s intention not to place obligations on domestic users of charge points under this clause, and I hope that noble Lords are able to support it. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, Clause 12(1) states:

“Regulations may make provision for the purpose of ensuring the ongoing transmission of charge point data to a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.


Amendment 41 would insert the following:

“Regulations under subsection (1) may not impose requirements on owners or occupiers of domestic premises”.


There is a big hole in the Bill. I want to know where the Government will raise their revenue from when fuel duty is reduced. At the moment we raise £28 billion per annum. Over a period of years, as the use of electric vehicles increases, there will be a revenue loss. At the moment, the duty on petrol is nearly 60p a litre, on LPG it is nearly 32p, on natural gas it is 25p, and on diesel it is roughly the same as petrol.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has expressed concern about this. Its view is that revenue will come through road pricing, which I think some people call “spy in the sky”. This whole question of road pricing has always worried me. However, there are other forms of raising the revenue. There is road fund licensing, which would be very expensive if it is substituting fuel duty, or a tax on the meter in the home. In the end, that is where they will have to raise the tax. However, I think that it would be based on the recorded usage on the meter at the residence. If it is based on tax according to the meter at the home, there will have to be two meters in every home—one for the domestic use of electricity and one for the raising of revenue to substitute for the loss of fuel duty—which means that there will be two separate rates. We are entitled to know the Government’s thinking on this. How do they intend to raise revenue in future to substitute for fuel duty losses? In the time that I have spoken, I am sure that the civil servants in the Box have provided the Minister with an answer to my question.

[Lord Lucas]

Is there some rule of law that implies at the end of Amendment 41 the words “in respect of those premises”? If there is, I would like to know what it is. If there is not, then all that a vast operator of charge points has to do is to buy one house. It will then be the owners of domestic premises and this clause will no longer apply to it.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think that it would apply to it as an operator, although of course it would not apply to it as an owner of residential property. We have made it absolutely clear that it is the charge operator and not the consumer who has to supply the data. That is the thrust of these amendments. Perhaps I may reflect on what my noble friend has said and write to him, but we do not see this as a loophole whereby a charge operator can escape its obligation to notify the national grid or whoever of the volume of consumption at a particular charge point.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for his ingenuity in seeking to broaden a rather narrow debate about data from a charge point into one about the future taxation policy as the nation moves from petrol-consuming vehicles to electricity. I am sure that there are brains in the Treasury who are aware of the potential threat to their revenue, but it is essentially a matter for the Treasury and not for this Bill. The Bill is not about taxation. The policy scoping notes and the Explanatory Notes make it clear that it is not intended to use this clause for taxation purposes in any way. The noble Lord raises important issues but, with respect, they do not arise from this narrow group of amendments.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why, then, have these regulations? As I understand it, it would not be possible to raise the revenue from the vehicular meter in the home in the event that Amendment 41 were in place.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is important that the electricity grid is aware of hot points in the pattern of consumption in order to plan ahead. Therefore, it needs the data to find out in what parts of the country demand is coming from and at what times of the day. The amendment would simply place the obligation clearly on the operator of the charge points and not on the domestic consumer.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps the noble Lord can answer the original question that I asked. Will HMRC be one of these groups of prescribed persons?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

No, I do not believe that it will be.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I think that I should intervene at this particular moment to remind the House about the rules of Report. Paragraph 8.136 of the Companion states that no Peer should speak twice except, with the leave of the House, to ask a brief question.

Rail Timetabling

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, on the constant interference of politicians in the railway system, it is absolutely the department’s responsibility to ensure that the railway is run well. When it is not run well, as in this case, then of course politicians will get involved. I entirely agree that the railways should be run by professionals. With the long-term franchises which the franchising system has brought in, there are five-year or seven-year periods in which to run the railways, and of course Network Rail is run separately. We think the head of the ORR is the right person to carry out the independent inquiry, and I am sure he will consult experts. He will be working very closely with the franchises, the department and Network Rail to try to understand exactly what went wrong.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, there is a keen appetite to ask questions of the Minister and we will make more progress if the questions are short.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a commuter on Great Northern and Thameslink. I am afraid I have to inform my noble friend that the service has not improved one iota. Is she aware that none of the people who commute from that area—from Sandy, Biggleswade, Hitchin, Stevenage and so on—is the least bit interested in 2020? What they want is action now. May I make a suggestion? I handled the three-day week publicity in conjunction with the departments involved. Every night, there was communication with industry and commerce and so on. I suggest that there should be a daily meeting involving a senior Minister so that we can get a grip on what the situation needs.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, just referred to the issue that I wanted to raise and which I raised earlier in Committee. There will potentially be a substantial drop in revenue. It is important that the Bill goes a little bit further than it does in Clause 12, which refers to a,

“prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Why can the Government not be a little more frank? We basically mean the excise authorities—they are the people who want this information. Ultimately, that is the way the tax will be raised, unless we go down the route of satellite observation of your vehicle running along the motorway counting up how many miles you have done and where you went, which might worry a lot of people in a world of arguments over privacy.

I hope the noble Baroness’s comments will be followed up by the Minister. The Government might be prepared to go a little further on Report than the wording in Clause 12 and be absolutely frank. This is how it is being read outside: “This is the way we intend to raise taxes”, against the argument, when it starts, of whether to use something like satellites. Could Ministers be a little more frank and give us an undertaking that they might reconsider that position and the wording in Clause 12(1) on Report?

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for raising the importance of consultation prior to regulations being made using the powers covered by the Bill. It would of course be sensible, and indeed essential, for us to engage with a wide range of stakeholders to ensure that any regulations brought forward under the Bill are fair and proportionate while delivering the changes that will meet the needs of users and greatly improve the charging experience. It will be particularly important to consult those stakeholders that will be directly impacted by any of these regulations.

The Government have a set of good consultation principles—for example, that consultations should be targeted, clear and concise. They were published in 2016 and a copy was placed in the parliamentary Library. These principles were followed when consulting on primary legislation for the Bill and we will continue to follow them. They were updated in 2018 and can be accessed on the government website, GOV.UK.

Prior to introducing any regulations in this part of the Bill, we will engage with all appropriate stakeholders. This is already a requirement under Clause 16(3). Amendment 52, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, calls for consultation specifically with charge point operators and vehicle manufacturers. As we explained in the policy scoping notes, under Clause 9 the Government would consult widely with stakeholders on the issue of connection before introducing regulations. This consultation would of course include charge point manufacturers and operators, and vehicle manufacturers.

Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also seeks to require the Secretary of State to publish draft criteria and definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators at least six months before making the regulation. Any regulations brought forward under Clause 10 would be informed by consultation with industry, including fuel retailers, motorway service area operators, EV infrastructure providers and operators, and EV manufacturers and drivers, a point insisted on by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She made a valid point that those currently in the petrol retailing business will want to ensure that they have a future. Their business is basically supplying energy to motorists. They will need to react if motorists start using a different form of energy. It would be in their interests to move in this direction.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised the point that this might have implications for the Treasury. I will not go there. She also mentioned the possibility of road pricing—another sensitive political issue. I am not going to go there either, but they were valid points.

As explained in the policy scoping notes, the purpose of the consultation would be to seek industry’s views on the definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators and any criteria for the locations at which fuel retailers will have to make specified provision.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will that consultation include not just regulation but facilitation? Many providers collect their fuel by road and then dispense it. They have a serious problem connecting with the grid and fitting in with the electricity supply. I do not understand why the Government do not apply here the same arrangements as they applied in respect of telephonic connections, which did something about the problems of wayleaves.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Some fuel retailers may be in remote locations where the necessary electricity supply is not immediately available. Therefore, it would not make sense to oblige them to have charge points if they could not get the power. We have taken that on board. When we consult, we will look specifically at the availability of power supply before deciding whether to make progress.

Clause 16(4) would require the Secretary of State to lay the draft regulations in Parliament and their approval by each House before they are made. I understand the intent of the amendment: to ensure there is enough time for stakeholders to consider and comment, and make their views known to parliamentarians, before the regulations are discussed in the House. However we believe that, given the commitment to full consultation and the use of the affirmative procedure, it is not necessary or proportionate to publish the regulations six months before they are made. There will be many opportunities to comment on what should be included in the regulations throughout the consultation, and a delay of six months from the final draft to a vote in Parliament could adversely affect the delivery of the policy. Regarding Amendment 68, I hope this also reassures the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, of our commitment to consult fuel retailers about the appropriateness of regulations before they are introduced.

I turn to Amendment 87 and the important issue of data. The collection and use of data from charge points is increasingly important to those who help manage the electricity system. We will need carefully to consider how that data is used and how to ensure data privacy. We are already statutorily obliged to consult on the regulations through Clause 16(3). The consultation will cover the issues referred to in the amendments: who is responsible for collecting the data, how the data is shared, and any limitations on the use of such data. Therefore, we do not believe that a specific amendment on data is necessary. Data security and privacy are essential. Data would be anonymised and aggregated and it could be handled in a similar way to how smart meter data is treated. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, suggested that one of the prescribed persons might be the Treasury, so that it could get this information in order to charge motorists. I do not think that is the intention, but I will take advice before I commit myself on it. It is an ingenious thought, which the Treasury may follow up now that the noble Lord has mentioned it.

Amendment 95 is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She must have a very small carbon footprint if she generates through solar panels the power for her car. The amendment would require night-shift workers and households with solar panels to be taken into account for regulations under Clause 13, about smart charge points. I would hope that night-shift workers might be able to charge at work and therefore benefit from the lower rates, but off-peak is not only at night; lowest demand can now be in the afternoon because of solar power, so it could be the new off-peak—I understand that this happened for the first time in the UK in 2017. We will of course look to ensure that the introduction of smart charge points does not have adverse effects on any groups of consumers. However, we do not believe it is appropriate to specify, and implicitly prioritise, a small selection of people, however important, as the noble Baroness’s amendment seeks. I understand that it is important to take into account different groups of consumers, but as the clause is about the requirements for smart charge points rather than the pricing structures, I am not sure that it is the right place.

On smart charging pricing structures, I hope noble Lords will be reassured that the regulator for the electricity system, Ofgem, has an explicit responsibility to make the system fair for all energy consumers. Amendment 102 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, would extend the consulting requirement for this part of the Bill to ensure that the Secretary of State included the National Grid, large fuel retailers and service area operators. I agree that it is important to consult widely and of course that includes such stakeholders, but we do not think it appropriate to specify in the Bill a small proportion of the organisations that should be consulted.

Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is about requiring draft regulations in this part to be approved in both Houses of Parliament every time they provide or amend a definition in this Act. Clause 16(4) already requires the Secretary of State to do this for the first time regulations are laid, with exceptions for technical regulations under Clause 9(3) and Clause 13. This is a rapidly evolving market and may require the Government to act quickly. The initial regulations will be subject, quite rightly, to the affirmative procedure, but it may not be appropriate to extend this to every provision or amendment of a definition.

I am grateful to noble Lords for raising important issues. I hope they are reassured that we intend to fulfil existing duties in respect of secondary legislation, that we will consult widely and thoroughly before any regulations are brought forward, and that the statutory obligation to consultation in Clause 16(3) will ensure that we do so. I recognise the importance of proper parliamentary scrutiny when defining terms used in the Bill, as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted in its report. My noble friend is considering its recommendations and will respond to the committee before Report and copy this response to all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s debate. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord might withdraw his amendment at this stage.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I shall not delay the Committee unnecessarily. I will study the response with some care. I suspect that we will bring forward an amendment on Report unless the Minister does so for us, because there is something rather special about the timescales. The standard consultation is 12 weeks. The six months that we propose recognises the considerable work that will be required if a fuel retailer or service operator is caught unawares. Either such a provision is needed or the regulations have to be sensitive about time. I hope for a perhaps more in-depth response—I do not want to be rude—which recognises these timescales. Perhaps we can put that on record on Report, even if the Minister is unable to suggest some useful words to add to the Bill.

Before I withdraw the amendment, can I assume that when Amendment 53 is called, we will commence discussion on the original group without Amendment 51? I see nodding from the Whips; therefore, we are all on the same page. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

In moving Amendment 89, I shall speak to other amendments in this group. I should perhaps comment that we have seen Clause 11 stand part of the Bill, which we have touched on but not properly mentioned; it is a very important part of the Bill, and I am glad that it is in there. Like Clause 13, it feels like an essential part of what makes this Bill worth doing. The provision of information to consumers is hugely important and is currently very fractured and frustrating.

I am encouraged by the scoping note showing that the Government’s thinking on Clause 13 is fairly well advanced, so we can expect regulations quite soon. The amendments in my name make a simple point; as drafted, the clause appears to provide powers to make regulations about the sale and installation of charge points, but we simply wanted to ensure that they were also used and that the smart capabilities were used. There is no point in requiring them to be made available if there is no similar requirement that they are switched on, working and useful for consumers. I am not entirely sure that our wording is exactly right, and I would very much welcome discussing this further.

The intent of the amendments is to say that we know that the advent of electrification in transport provides a potentially great way to balance our supply and demand on the grid. The Environmental Defense Fund in Europe and WWF have had a great collaboration with the National Grid around making more visible what is happening on our grid at any given point. We helped to launch a carbon intensity tool with them, which shows you in real time how clean the grid is. On a sunny, windy day like the one that we have just had, you will find that the carbon per kilowatt hour generated is now below 100 grams. That is an extraordinary testimony to the amount of hard work and effort that has gone into encouraging investment into clean-air forms of electricity. There will be times in the day and month when it is extraordinarily clean to charge your infrastructure, your vehicles and indeed heat needs from the grid. That will unlock a huge potential for batteries in vehicles and, indeed, homes, to be used as part of the grid’s balancing of supply and demand, soaking up the excess when there is excess and then providing back to the grid at times of need.

It is great that this provision is in the Bill. We would just like to have reassurances that there will be regulations to cover the use as well as the installation and sale of the smart components of this hugely important part of the charging infrastructure. I beg to move.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, as the co-pilot again, I am grateful for this opportunity to discuss smart charging, which helps electric vehicles benefit both their owners and the energy system.

In broad terms, smart charging helps to shift, where possible, the times when EVs recharge their batteries to off-peak periods, when electricity is cheaper and cleaner and the network has more capacity. I was interested in the information given by the noble Baroness about the cleanliness of the power from the grid at any particular point in time—and the incentive that might give environmentally conscious consumers to use that information to decide when to charge their vehicle—and let me reassure the noble Baroness that we want this capacity to be used. In practice, this could be done, for example, by a signal being transmitted to a smart charge point, which then responds to the signal by increasing or decreasing the rate of charge. The charge point could have its own metering system, or it could potentially be integrated with a smart meter in domestic cases.

Clause 13 helps create the right environment for smart charging by ensuring that all new charge points have the smart functionality that the noble Baroness spoke about. The clause is technical in nature and is not about specifying how customer behaviour is influenced. This is likely to be done by price signals, and we are working with the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets, which regulates this market, and with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, to facilitate such an approach.

Amendment 89, from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, seeks to do two things: first, to require, with caveats, the use of smart charging systems; and secondly, to require, with caveats, the use of intelligent metering systems. As the noble Baroness has set out, the rationale for the amendment is to enable smart charging to reduce costs and carbon emissions for consumers as well as helping the energy system to balance the peaks and troughs of electricity supply and demand. I wholeheartedly agree with these goals, and that is what Clause 13 does—it enables smart charging by requiring all charge points to have this functionality. The current version of the clause seeks to allow this to be done by incentives, such as price. If that is the intention of the amendment, we do not think it is needed.

However, another interpretation of the amendment—possibly unintended by the noble Baroness—goes further than that and, subject to caveats, creates a requirement for smart charging rather than allowing incentives. The problem with this approach is simply one of unintended consequences. First, if smart charging was a requirement, the relevant energy companies would not need to pass on any benefits to the consumer. They would not need to give a discounted price for charging at certain times of the day because the consumer would already be required to do this by law. Secondly, the amendment would mean a significant level of government interference in domestic consumer behaviour if it essentially meant dictating when a consumer could and could not charge. That may not have been the intention of the noble Baroness, but I am advised by those who know more about the legislation than I do that that would be a potential impact.

On the second part of the amendment, on intelligent metering, I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured that Clause 13 can already prescribe such a system. The example given in Clause 13(2)(d) is to require the charge point,

“to monitor and record energy consumption”.

The effect of this part of the amendment would therefore be to make such metering mandatory and to use the specific definition in the amendment rather than the current approach of allowing consultation to help decide whether smart metering is necessary, and if so what precise definition to use. For example, by 2020 every household in the UK should be offered a smart meter, which may make additional intelligent metering in the smart charge point unnecessary.

Amendment 92 seeks to require the smart charge point to react to information in a “prescribed fashion”. We do not think that Amendment 92 is needed. Clause 13(2)(b) is an example of the requirements under Clause 13, and regulations under Clause 13 can already prescribe how the charge point reacts to information.

Amendment 94 seeks to require that information relating to the use of charge points, such as availability and price of charging, is made available in a prescribed format. It also seeks to ensure that charge points have the ability to reserve time slots for drivers to charge their vehicles. That is precisely the intention of Clause 11, which would require operators of public charge points to make available prescribed information. The policy scoping notes provide a list, which is not exhaustive, of all of the types of information that operators may be required to make available to users, including: location; operating hours; cost of accessing and using the charge point; method of payment or access; means of connection; whether the point is in working order; and whether it is in use.

Regulations brought forward under this clause would also give the Government the ability to ensure the provision of open source data on public charging points in a standardised format. This would mean that the data would be available to anyone wanting to use it, enabling service providers such as app developers and satnav companies to utilise the information to create services, such as apps, for drivers. The provision of open source “live” data could also support the provision of services that would enable drivers to reserve charge points.

Amendment 97 in this group was not spoken to or moved, so if the Committee will forgive me, I will not address it.

I thank noble Lords for raising the importance of smart charge points. I hope I have given some reassurance that this clause and the other measures I have outlined will help to create the right environment for smart charging while avoiding onerous requirements on consumers. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness might withdraw this amendment.

[Baroness Worthington]

I thank the Minister for his response. I am not fully reassured. This seems to come down to whether we put in regulations or allow the market to set incentives as regards whether this smart capability will be part of our future charging infrastructure. I can see that to rely on market incentives might mean that the consumer is much more vulnerable than if we were to regulate. The reason for that is because of my experience in America, where all electricity bills are set, state-by-state, by different regulations. Where there are few protections and regulations, the market prices the marginal excess use very highly. If there are no protections, you find that if you tip over a certain volume of electricity use, your charge per unit spikes enormously, which means that people are vulnerable to failing to realise that they have gone over that threshold. So in this instance the market cannot necessarily be relied on to provide the right incentives, and it may lead to a considerable exposure to risk for consumers who are not perhaps fully informed. Therefore I do not fully believe that we should just leave this to the market.

I take the point that regulating to insist that, for example, time of use tariffs are in place everywhere may also not be the answer. However, we definitely need to do something here to ensure this. We may not put this on to the super-rapid chargers or the rapid chargers in the motorway infrastructure, because there you may well need to charge at 5 pm when you are en route somewhere, and you do not want to be exposed to differential prices. However, the vast majority of charging—the backbone of this—will be done at home, or as at-destination charging, and there is a need to set some standards and regulatory requirements there on the use of the smart capability. I come back to the fact that while Clause 13 is welcome, it just covers the sale and installation and does not do enough to reassure me that we will also talk about the usage of that smart capability. I would like to come back to this, but I recognise that the wording we have may not be perfect, and it would be good to talk about it further. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.