Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021 (Airspace Change Directions) (Determination of Turnover for Penalties) Regulations 2022

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Thursday 13th January 2022

(2 years, 3 months ago)

Grand Committee
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Vere of Norbiton Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, which I will abbreviate as “ATMUA”.

Part 1 of ATMUA grants the Secretary of State powers to direct a person involved in airspace change to progress or co-operate in an airspace change proposal, or ACP, where doing so would assist in the delivery of the CAA’s airspace modernisation strategy. These powers are delegable to the Civil Aviation Authority, or CAA, as I have already mentioned. These powers will help deliver quicker, quieter, and cleaner journeys for the benefit of those who use UK airspace and are affected by its use. If the directed party does not comply with a direction, the CAA can issue them with a contravention notice, which may be followed by an enforcement order. If that enforcement order is contravened, this may result in a financial penalty consisting of a fixed amount, not exceeding 10% of the person’s turnover and/or a daily amount not exceeding 0.1% of the person’s turnover. A person’s “turnover” is to be determined in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State, which is the draft instrument being considered by the Committee today.

Airspace has to be managed so it can be used safely and efficiently. ACPs can include proposals to, for example, amend airport flight paths or change the classification of particular airspace. In 2018, the CAA published its Airspace Modernisation Strategy, which set out the ends, ways and means of modernising airspace. The CAA is currently consulting on a refresh of its strategy, and I encourage those with an interest to put forward their views. The programme of airspace modernisation is under way, and includes the wholesale redesign of the UK’s airspace to unlock the benefits of modernisation. It is being delivered by the aviation industry, with support from the Department for Transport and the CAA, which provide joint leadership and oversight of governance as co-sponsors of the programme.

Airspace change usually relies on individual sponsors, airports and air navigation service providers, or ANSPs, to bring forward their own proposals and choose when, if and how, they progress them. Previously, when a sponsor declined to participate in an ACP on a voluntary basis, neither the department nor the CAA had the powers to ensure co-operation and co-ordination. This meant that one sponsor could hold up another or several others, thereby delaying the modernisation programme and the benefits associated with it.

With the recent passing of ATMUA, the Secretary of State will have the power to direct progression or co-operation in an ACP, once Part 1 of ATMUA comes fully into force. Where there are difficulties for a sponsor to overcome, the CAA will seek to help it in finding solutions—for example, in terms of resources. Our intention is that the direction-making powers will be a last resort and will only be issued where they can be practicably carried out. Before any direction is made, consultation would take place as required by ATMUA. These regulations are required to ensure that the legislative framework can operate as intended, and therefore their commencement will be aligned with Part 1 of ATMUA, so far as that is not already in force.

The draft instrument enables the CAA to enforce directions effectively, when imposing a penalty, by setting out how a person’s turnover is to be calculated. The amount of penalty must in all cases be appropriate and proportionate. These regulations have been drafted to take account of the diverse nature of persons involved in airspace change. Maintaining an appropriate level of penalty for all organisations will deter non-compliance and support ACPs to take place in a co-ordinated manner, which will contribute to a more effective airspace modernisation programme. It will also ensure that, where penalties are imposed, they are both transparent and proportionate.

The department consulted on the enforcement powers within ATMUA in 2018. Respondents, including airlines and airports, were broadly supportive, provided that application is proportionate and used as a last resort. The CAA would, of course, have regard to the requirement of proportionality in using the power to fine, in accordance with its statutory duties and the better regulation agenda.

A person’s turnover is determined with reference to the sum of all amounts received in the course of their business, as shown in their published accounts. If the person has not published accounts, the accounts prepared by that person will be used. Turnover includes loans from public or local authorities, but it excludes capital receipts and loans made by a third party. The annual turnover considered is for the most recent business year, ending on or before the last day of the period specified in the enforcement order for complying with the requirement, the contravention of which is subject to the penalty. Only one year of turnover is used in the calculation.

The use of this 12-month period is in line with the Civil Aviation Act 2012 and Part II of the Transport Act 2000, which both specify calculations based on the “last regulatory year”. We are using the same period here to ensure consistency of regulation across the aviation and wider sectors. Amounts are to be calculated according to generally accepted accounting principles and practices in the UK. Provision is also made for situations where a person does not have 12 months of accounts. The turnover period to be used in determining the level of penalty is decided according to the compliance date for the relevant requirement in the enforcement order.

This instrument is being made so that the Government can ensure effective and proportionate enforcement by the CAA against airspace change sponsors who put the delivery of the airspace modernisation programme at risk. I commend these regulations to the Committee, and I beg to move.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
- Hansard - -

I am grateful to be able to contribute to the debate on this statutory instrument, and I shall be very brief. I note that this is the first use of the power in paragraph 12 of Schedule 2 to the Act, and I simply want to ask my noble friend a couple of questions.

First, could my noble friend give some examples as to why it is felt necessary to bring this forward now, since this is the first use of the power in the Act? Equally, I listened carefully to what she said, and she said that the power would be used only in extremis, but I am not clear how the rate of fine will actually be applied. She talked about it being proportionate, but proportionate to what? Who will decide what that proportionality is? Crucially, what will be the appeal process for any fine that is imposed?

My real concern is about the relationship with the Ministry of Defence, and I would be grateful if my noble friend could outline that relationship. Clearly, the MoD operates a number of airfields across the United Kingdom, most of which happen to be out of the main flight paths in Lincolnshire, but of course some are not—such as RAF Northolt in London. As the CAA moves forward with the Airspace Modernisation Strategy, can she outline what the relationship with the MoD will be in the implementation of that strategy? Crucially, what will be the resolution process if there is a disagreement with the MoD about the implementation of that modernisation strategy?

Lord Naseby Portrait Lord Naseby (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I welcome very much this SI today. By way of background, I have had the privilege of reading the CAA publication Airspace Modernisation Strategy, and I have had the chance to look at the Airspace Change Organising Group’s work so far. From my background as a former pilot in the RAF who takes an interest in aviation, my stance is that I certainly do not accept the view put forward as a result of COP 26 that aviation is in decline mode; I think that aviation is absolutely fundamental to the future success of our country and our economy. I welcome enormously the work that the CAA is doing alongside the department involved, because it is absolutely vital for our exports trade and for internal trade that we use to the maximum possible the airspace that is available.

Having said that, I have just a couple of short questions. One of our previous problems, particularly with unmanned aircraft—in other words, drones—was that people claimed that there was not proper awareness, the publicity was not adequate and somehow or other they had missed out on this, that and the other. Given the nature of these penalties, which are absolutely justifiable, we need to take particular care to ensure that there is proper publicity in depth and to check, by way of research, that people are aware of the changes being made.

Other than that, I just ask my noble friend, because I do not quite understand, why, according to paragraph 7.4,

“Public consultation on some of the airspace change proposals is likely to commence in 2022.”


From reading the material I referred to, it is a package in toto, so I am not quite sure how you can regulate just a section of the airspace—unless it is felt that you can do Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland separately. I am not quite clear why it should be just “some”, as opposed to a complete package. I look forward to my noble friend’s responses.

Railways: Fare Structures

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Tuesday 17th November 2020

(3 years, 5 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Morris of Bolton Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Lord Berkeley. No? We will move on to the next speaker. I call the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, commuters on the west coast main line have been jammed in like sardines for years—never an appealing prospect, and even less so in the time of Covid. As well as flexibility on pricing, do we not also need to look at increasing capacity on our railways if we are to tempt people back to rail use?

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Portrait Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord is of course completely right. That is why the Government are investing £48 billion over control period 6, not only to maintain our railways but to enhance them and to increase capacity.

Rail Fares

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Wednesday 5th September 2012

(11 years, 7 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Maria Eagle Portrait Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That this House believes that the rising cost of rail travel is adding to the financial pressures facing many households; and calls on the Government to restore the one per cent above inflation cap on annual fare rises for 2013 and 2014, and to ban train operators from increasing fares beyond that strict limit.

I begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin) on his appointment as Secretary of State. He returns to a Department he left some 20 years ago—time flies—after serving for three years as the Minister with responsibility for aviation and shipping. Only three years thereafter—I hope not as a result of his experience—he took a 17-year vow of silence in the Government and Opposition Whips Offices, from which he emerges today, probably blinking into the light. I think I speak for the whole House when I say that we are all very keen to hear what he has to say. He is the third Secretary of State for Transport I have faced since taking up my role in opposition. I hope for his sake he lasts a little longer than his predecessors and I wish him well in the role.

I also welcome his new all-male team—of course, that is a matter for the Prime Minister, not the Ministers he appointed—including the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond). Another Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), of course provides the continuity in the Department—something that he probably never thought he would do.

We are debating an Opposition motion, but there need be no disagreement in the House today. I hope that all right hon. and hon. Members, including Ministers, will feel able to support the motion in the Lobby later this afternoon. It is a straightforward motion with a simple proposition—that the rising cost of rail travel is now adding to the financial pressures facing many households. That is a fact, and I would hope that we will see agreement at least on that. It is something that we are all hearing from our constituents. I also hope that we can agree on a second basic proposition—that the level by which rail fares increase should not simply be left to the private train companies to determine. It is why we have the system of regulated and unregulated fares, with those tickets on which most people rely, including day returns and season tickets, having their annual increase capped.

There has always been cross-party agreement that there is a role for Government in the setting of fare levels and it is right that we retain the ability to protect our constituents from a profit-driven free-for-all on fare rises. The reality, however, is that the so-called cap on annual fare rises, even for regulated fares, is not a cap at all. So when the Chancellor stands up, as he does, and says that fares will not rise by more than 1% above inflation—or whatever percentage it might be—he cannot actually deliver that commitment at ticket offices across the country, because the cap is an average and train companies have the flexibility, as they like to call it, to increase fares by up to 5% above the so-called cap.

In January, just two months after the Chancellor had promised a 1% above-inflation cap on fare rises, what did commuters find when they went to buy their tickets? They found fare rises not of 1% above inflation but of up to 11% above inflation, because the train companies had exercised their flexibility to add up to another 5% on to some fares. That is what our constituents across the country face again in the coming new year—fare rises of up to 11%. We are kidding ourselves, therefore, if we think that what we are debating is whether the cap should be RPI plus 1 or RPI plus 3, because the train companies can game it to their advantage. That is why our motion proposes that if we are to have a cap on regulated fare rises—we believe that there should be one, and I think the Government do too—it should be a real cap.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - -

Given the hon. Lady’s concern about the impact of fare rises on families, will she join me in congratulating FirstGroup on its successful tender for the west coast rail franchise, given that it is committed to reducing by 15% the cost of a standard anytime return journey? Is this not a demonstration of an effective tender process by this Government?

Maria Eagle Portrait Maria Eagle
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Many questions have arisen from the announcement in the recess about the west coast main line. The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight that the winning bidder—we must remember that legal action is ongoing, so we are restricted in what we can say—has made that commitment, but issues have been raised over the deliverability and reality of the assumptions behind the winning bid. Those issues have been raised not only by some of the losing bidders but by other experts in the industry.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Thursday 23rd February 2012

(12 years, 2 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Justine Greening Portrait Justine Greening
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting suggestion. The Government are looking across the board at how we can introduce corporate governance rules that lead to a more responsible approach by companies, and that give shareholders the ability to hold their executive to account more effectively. Transparency is a key part of the Government’s agenda too, so I shall reflect on what he says.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - -

I encourage the Secretary of State to come to visit the new Network Rail headquarters in Milton Keynes, not because I want her to interfere in remuneration—that is best left to the company—but so that she can celebrate the 1,000 new jobs that have been created there.

Justine Greening Portrait Justine Greening
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would be delighted to visit Milton Keynes. Network Rail is doing a huge amount of work on skills and apprenticeships. We should reflect on that and celebrate it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Thursday 27th January 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Norman Baker Portrait Norman Baker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I assure the hon. Lady that the objective of the change is to make the arrangements more accessible. That, not her rather lurid explanation, is driving the changes.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - -

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Lord Hammond of Runnymede Portrait The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Since I last answered questions, I have published details of our proposed route for high-speed rail, launched the local transport White Paper, including the bidding guidance for the £560 million local sustainable transport fund, set out our proposals for reforms to the rail franchising system, which will deliver better value for money for taxpayers and better service to passengers, and announced tough new measures to tackle uninsured driving.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster
- Hansard - -

Investment in the west coast main line is most welcome but mainly benefits long-distance travellers, while short-distance travellers remain overcrowded. Is there any light at the end of the tunnel for Milton Keynes commuters?

Lord Hammond of Runnymede Portrait Mr Hammond
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There are two separate lights at the end of the tunnel—[Interruption.] Neither of them is a train coming the other way. First, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said earlier, 106 additional Pendolino carriages for the west coast main line have been ordered and will come into service in 2012. Secondly, as the proposed HS2 line, if approved, is built it will provide massive additional capacity on the London-west midlands route, and capacity will be freed up for new high-speed, longer-distance commuter services from places such as Milton Keynes to London.

Rail Investment

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Thursday 25th November 2010

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - -

One benefit of High Speed 2 will be a release of capacity on the commuter section of the west coast main line from Euston to Milton Keynes. Will the Secretary of State confirm that as a result of today’s statement, rolling stock formerly used on Thameslink might be released to ease congestion on that line?

Lord Hammond of Runnymede Portrait Mr Hammond
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The release of rolling stock from Thameslink will provoke a cascade through the system so that Thameslink vehicles will be available for use on other lines. In some cases they will displace diesel units that will become available for use on still further lines. At the bottom of the pile, some old rolling stock is likely to be retired. By releasing large numbers of carriages into the pool we expect to change the market dynamics for leasing rolling stock, making it cheaper and therefore more affordable for the taxpayer and passenger alike.

Bus Services (Milton Keynes)

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Excerpts
Tuesday 29th June 2010

(13 years, 10 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Iain Stewart Portrait Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to have secured this debate. I requested it because of the significant level of disquiet in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) over the new network and timetable introduced by Arriva buses throughout Milton Keynes on 25 April. The new network and timetable were introduced with hardly any proper consultation, and there have been significant complaints about the punctuality and reliability of the new services.

It is fair to say that, in the seven or eight weeks for which have been a Member of the House, I have had more letters and e-mails on this subject than on any other. On 11 June, my hon. Friend and I attended a forum organised in Milton Keynes. It was a protest meeting organised by the Milton Keynes older persons forum, and I congratulate Peter Ballantyne and his colleagues on organising it. I have never been to such a packed public protest meeting—it was literally standing room only. That gives an indication of the level of disquiet in Milton Keynes over the new bus system.

Before detailing the concerns expressed and outlining what I hope are some of the possible solutions, I shall explain why the design and geography of Milton Keynes makes the provision of good bus services more complex than in many other cities and towns. Unlike most towns and cities, the normal pattern of travel is not just in what one might term a hub-and-spoke arrangement, under which the broad direction of travel is from outlying residential areas into the urban centre, where most businesses, shops and leisure activities are. There is that travel in Milton Keynes, but our grid system disperses places of employment, leisure and retail throughout the city. So the patterns of travel are not just from the outskirts into the middle, but multi-directional at any given point in the day. That presents a challenge to bus operators to put in place an effective system.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case on behalf of his constituents and is to be congratulated on securing this important debate. Of course, the added complication in Milton Keynes is that about 80% of the unitary authority is rural, so as well as a rather complicated grid-row system we have the rural bus network that makes it even worse.

Iain Stewart Portrait Iain Stewart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Some of the villages in his constituency, as in mine, either do not have a bus service at all or have such a limited one that it is not reliable for people without cars. Little Brickhill, in my constituency, is one of the villages that lost its post office jut over a year ago. Now the residents there do not have a bus service to get to the nearest post office in the town, so they have had a double whammy in the loss of services. That is an important additional aspect to devising a good bus network.

The other curious and unique feature of Milton Keynes is that the grid road system has fast roads skirting around each of the residential areas, so that cars and buses can travel at high speed. It presents a trade-off between the speed of services and accessibility. There is a choice of either driving buses down the grid roads, which are far away from most people’s homes, or going into the estates, which inevitably lengthens the journey. I appreciate that the bus operators have a difficult task in marrying up those two objectives.

Arriva stated when it introduced the new system that it wanted a faster network. That is what it has achieved, but it has done so at too great a cost to many of the services people rely on. There has been significant opposition to the changes, as I detailed earlier.

I will spare the House a detailed analysis of the individual routes that have changed, but I hope the following gives a little flavour of some of the problems that have arisen since the changes at the end of April. I have had letters from students who have either been late for their exams or missed them altogether; they could not rely on a bus service to get them there in time. Similarly, patients have either missed their hospital or doctor appointments, or been unable to attend them without an inordinately long journey, which they are sometimes not physically capable of making. They are therefore forced to rely on the charity of neighbours or families to transport them, or to face the expense of a taxi.

The Stony Stratford business association wrote to me about its considerable concerns about a downturn in trading following the changes. That is because a direct service into Stony Stratford, which many pensioners used, was lost. I have had reports from volunteers and carers, saying that they are now finding it so difficult to get to the homes of the people they are looking after that they have had to reassess their commitments. Finally, I have had reports from employees, who used to enjoy fast and frequent service to their places of work, but now have to endure such a long and convoluted journey that they are often late into work and have to use up their lunch hour to make up time. These are serious disadvantages, and I believe that many of them are a product of insufficient consultation among Arriva buses, the parish and town councils and different organisations in Milton Keynes.

I have also received complaints that Milton Keynes council itself has not been attentive to the implications of the changes and that there has been a lack of co-ordination. It spent a considerable amount of money putting up fancy new signs saying “this is where the buses come”, and it has put up fancy new bus stops at great expense, which are now not used. There has been a considerable waste of money, which I do not think should have happened. Advertising and notifying passengers of the changes have also been a problem. When I raised that subject briefly in Transport questions a couple of weeks ago, the Minister kindly indicated that he might look at changing the regulations that govern this matter.

The situation is getting so bad that I understand that the traffic commissioner is now aware of the problem and is actively considering whether to intervene if the proper notification from different organisations in Milton Keynes is forthcoming. I do not want to spend this evening looking for scapegoats, going into who caused the problem and who did not do what. I am more interested in solutions and learning any lessons that might be applicable elsewhere.

There have been some positive developments. A new bus users group has been set up by the council, which is starting to act as a good conduit for complaints. Arriva is now looking at adjusting some of the routes to ameliorate some of the major problems that have arisen. It is a helpful development that the remit of Passenger Focus has been broadened to include bus services, which have always been the Cinderella service compared with train services.

I appreciate that it is right for much of the detail to be resolved at the local level rather than coming before Parliament, but I have sought to raise this subject in the House because I think we can learn some lessons from this unhappy state of affairs that may be helpful across other areas of the country. The Minister has kindly indicated that he will look at the notification period and I hope that that might be extended to review the process of consultation, as different groups in the affected constituency must be involved if there is to be a major restructuring of the bus network. I suggest that that should include not just unitary authority councils, but parish and town councils, and I also suggest it should include the local hospital and GP practices, because if people are unable to get to their appointments in time, that is a serious public health issue. It is vital that schools are involved as well, because if pupils cannot get in to sit their exams on time, or simply cannot arrive on time for ordinary classes, that is an issue. Milton Keynes has such a low housing density that schools have large catchment areas, so pupils have to travel considerable distances.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Mark Lancaster
- Hansard - -

There might have been more than 450 people at the meeting that my hon. Friend and I attended. Does he agree that they expressed great anger that there was almost no consultation and that they did not have the opportunity to make their voice heard about the changes that were made?

Iain Stewart Portrait Iain Stewart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is exactly right. If people had been consulted at the outset, many of these problems could have been avoided.

There is a trade-off between having a fast route between any two points in a city and having the route go through the main residential areas, but it is surely not beyond wit and wisdom to have a two-tier service with, perhaps, one express bus that does not call everywhere and the next bus as a stopping service that goes to all the different residential areas. These details should be worked out between the operators, the council and the different groups that I have identified, and I would also include local employers in the consultation. I am pleased that the coalition Government agreement has a provision to encourage greater co-operation between councils and bus operators, and I am interested to hear what further comments on that the Minister might be able to make.

Finally, I ask the Minister to take account of the evidence from Milton Keynes and other areas where there are bus problems and to look again at the effectiveness of the provisions of the Local Transport Act 2008, particularly in relation to quality partnerships and contracts. I know they were introduced fairly recently, but I think it is appropriate now to review their effectiveness and consider what further changes might be made.

The decentralisation Bill is due later this year. We want to encourage greater devolution and decentralisation, and also open-source planning that leads to properly sustainable communities. I hope that that Bill might be an appropriate vehicle through which to address the changes I have discussed in this debate.

I do not believe it is right for central Government to be overly prescriptive in determining what bus system operates in what area. What works in one area might not be applicable elsewhere, and, as I have said, Milton Keynes is unique in its design. However, I hope that by raising this subject I have brought to the Minister’s attention the fact that there is serious disquiet in Milton Keynes, and I would be grateful to learn of any steps he might take to encourage greater co-operation and consultation. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to raise this issue, and I hope my postbag on it will start to decline after this debate.