Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Nigel Mills
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Clearly, people who make donations before October 2014 should not have their details published, as that would not be their understanding of what would happen. My argument is that if they choose to make a large donation after 1 October 2014, they would be doing so on the understanding that they will be named—they would be choosing to be in that situation. I have no desire to force someone into a position that is not what they understood it to be, as it would be entirely wrong to do so.
I do not doubt that my constituency is very different from that of the hon. Gentleman and I do not want to underestimate his understanding of those risks, as they are clearly far greater than those in my constituency will ever be. However, we are all asked, as Members of Parliament in the UK, to vote on this Bill and to make these choices. We need to be in a situation where there is sufficient normality in Northern Ireland to be able to publish details of these donations. I am not convinced that we have not reached that point now and that for large donations it would not be the right way in which to tip that delicate balance, especially when we are not getting credible evidence from anybody that there is a real threat or that any past incidents would give us real cause for concern. Perhaps that evidence exists and just cannot come into the public domain. I have no doubt that the Minister will have information that is far stronger than the Committee could get its hands on or perhaps should get its hands on.
On the current balance of the arguments, I think we should be publishing details of those larger donations. I accept that we are not in a position to do that in respect of smaller donations, but let us make that change. Let us say that we have progressed far enough, 15 or 16 years on from that historic agreement, to think that the situation in Northern Ireland is strong enough for us to be able to publish details of those large donations. Let us go for transparency for the whole political process, and let us show that it is clean and that people cannot be bought. Let us not continue any longer with this fear or misunderstanding that the process is corrupt. That is where we are, and the events of last week and that television programme have raised again fears that something is happening which should not be happening. We all sincerely hope that it is not.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I am pleased to be able to take part in this debate. First, I wish to discuss amendment 6, which stands in my name and that of my colleagues, and then I will comment on the other proposals in the group. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) put a legitimate point of view, one that had support in the Select Committee but has not found favour with the Government, so I look forward to hearing the Minister speak on it. It is also worth making the general comment in relation to all these matters that the Bill did go through pre-legislative scrutiny. That is not to say that it cannot be improved or that we cannot debate it and tease out the various issues—that is what we are here to do. The hon. Gentleman referred to recent programmes and, of course, we also have to bear in mind the recent “Panorama” programme and The Sunday Times exposure of issues relating to Back-Benchers here and members of the other place. All these issues are very pertinent and need to be examined, too.
Our amendment 6 would repeal section 71B of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Political parties in Northern Ireland currently follow different rules from parties in Great Britain. Many people in the UK—UK taxpayers and voters—might be slightly surprised that a different set of rules applies on donations to people who can be elected to the House of Commons to make laws for the whole of the United Kingdom if they are in political parties in one part of the UK. The 2000 Act was passed to prevent foreign influence through donations being made without transparency, openness and all the rest of it and to ensure that donations were made by legitimate donors—donors who reside in the United Kingdom or who have locus in the UK, because, after all, the political parties to which they are donating are making laws for the UK. By logic, therefore, the same rules should apply across the UK to all the political parties represented in this House. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve.
In Great Britain, donations are permissible only from individuals or bodies in the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland parties, exceptionally, are allowed also to receive donations and loans from the Irish Republic. The amendment would end that exemption and put Northern Ireland on the same footing as the rest of the United Kingdom. One argument that is made over and over by many people, quite validly and properly, is that Northern Ireland should be brought into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. Usually, that argument is applied to the question of transparency and the revelation of the identities of donors—I shall come to that in a short while—but it never seems to be raised in the context of this glaring loophole, which preserves a special position, effectively for the benefit of nationalist parties. Let us be frank: that is why it was brought in originally and why it was lobbied for.
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and I understand where she is coming from. I understand the argument she advanced and the way in which she advanced it. Her concern was more to do with the loophole whereby donations come not so much from citizens or organisations in the Republic but from individuals or companies who are used as a conduit for political donations to parties in Northern Ireland from outside the Irish Republic—from the United States, or wherever. That is the real problem. It was identified by the Select Committee, which recommended that the loophole be closed.
The purpose of our amendment is to highlight that glaring loophole. We cannot have an exception that allows donations to come in from abroad and thereby allows them to come in from even further afield than intended—from America, Australia, Canada, other parts of the European Union or wherever else. That issue must be addressed. It is entirely unacceptable, when we talk about transparency, openness and all the rest of it, that in Northern Ireland parties that are represented or may be represented in this House could be funded by bodies, individuals and organisations in other parts of the world yet we would never be able to find out because of this exception.
I appeal to the Minister to consider the issue, to consider very carefully not just what we have said but what the Select Committee has said and to take the matter away and see how the loophole can be closed. If we are trying to move forward and bring the law on donations gradually and cautiously into line, we must do it across the board, not just on the issue addressed by clause 1 and the other amendments but on the issue we are raising through amendment 6.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I need some assistance in making up my mind about whether to support the amendment, so I would like him to explain precisely the remit of section 71B of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act, as amended. Does his amendment affect only donations from Irish citizens outside the United Kingdom, or would it apply equally to those who believe themselves to be Irish citizens living in the UK, and who might even wish to donate to the Democratic Unionist party?
Mr Dodds
The hon. Lady asks for clarification; I think the position is pretty clear. The position of those who would see themselves as Irish, or who hold an Irish passport and live in the United Kingdom, would not be affected at all. The exception allowed for in the 2000 Act as amended allows people who do not reside in the United Kingdom, but who do reside and have a residence qualification in the Irish Republic, to donate to Northern Ireland parties. We are saying that that is a back door route; the donations may be from individuals, companies and organisations in the Irish Republic, but that money can come from wherever—there is no regulation whatsoever. That is why we have tabled the amendment.
Naomi Long
I concur with the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns about international donations, but does he not agree that closing down all donations from the Irish Republic for parties that operate on an all-Ireland basis would not be fair, when parties that operate on a Northern Ireland or UK-wide basis can still get donations from the whole of the UK? Is it not more important that the Minister of State goes away and looks at how we can deal with the international issue in collaboration with the Irish Government, who manage their rules?
Mr Dodds
I have asked the Minister to take the matter away and consider it, but the fundamental point is that we are talking about the United Kingdom. When it comes to laws on donations, the electoral system for this House, and the way in which Members of the House are treated, right across the board, I believe that we are a Parliament of the United Kingdom, and Members of the House should all be equal, regardless of where we come from.
As far as the political set-up in Northern Ireland is concerned, there is absolutely nothing to stop political parties getting donations from any part of the United Kingdom, although I have to say that it is not common for Northern Ireland parties—the hon. Lady can bear this out—to be inundated with donations from other parts of the United Kingdom. I think that parties on this side of the water have that market well and truly cornered, whatever the source of the donations. We certainly do not get donations from the unions in Northern Ireland, either.
This is a point of principle for us, I suppose. The hon. Lady may not agree with it, and she has a perfectly valid perspective, but our view is that we are part of the United Kingdom, and we should all abide equally by the rules of the United Kingdom. The fundamental point is that the situation is not only wrong in principle but wide open to abuse; a coach and horses could be driven through the provisions, in ways that run contrary to the reasons for introducing the measures in the 2000 Act. They were brought in to pander to Sinn Fein in particular. Whatever the reasons may have been for that, years ago, those reasons have long since ceased to apply, and everybody should be on a level playing field.
Nigel Mills
I have sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. One of the concerns of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was that his amendment would effectively contravene the provisions of the Good Friday agreement—that freedoms allowed there effectively enable an all-Ireland party to operate, and what he is trying to do would stop that happening—and that is perhaps not the way Parliament ought to go.
Mr Dodds
Nothing in the amendment, or in our proposal, would prevent a party from operating in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. Likewise, there is nothing to stop a party from operating on a UK-wide basis, if it wished to. All the provision does is put Northern Ireland parties in exactly the same position as those in the rest of the United Kingdom, so that we are subject to the same rules and scrutiny. That is a perfectly legitimate point of view, which the Minister needs to consider.
Amendment 2 in the name of the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) means that after 1 October 2014 all protected information should be published in relation to all donations over £7,500. Protected information is anything that could identify the person or organisation that made a donation during the prescribed period of donor anonymity. The amendment would remove the protection after 1 October 2014 and would remove all discretion from the Secretary of State so that, as the hon. Gentleman said, after that date all donors and their details would be published.
We discussed the issue generally on Second Reading and the Government set out their position, which was opposed to that of the hon. Gentleman. Generally speaking, we welcomed the Government’s approach, which was one of caution but of cautious progress. We made it clear in the House that we want to see Northern Ireland on all fronts—not just, as some people have it, selectively—moving forward and coming into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. Right across all fronts we wish to see that.
We welcome the fact that amendments 7 and 8, as well as amendment 2, safeguard the anonymity of those who have donated up till now. Some have argued that that should not be accepted, but it is accepted by everybody and rightly so. The question is whether the Government should still have regard to the circumstances in October 2014, or whether we should make a decision now that as of that date, regardless of the situation or circumstances, the discretion is taken away.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern about clause 1(3)? He said that people who had made a donation up till now have their anonymity guaranteed, yet clause 1(3) seems to suggest that there might be circumstances in which the anonymity of those who gave before the Bill is enacted might be breached.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I flagged that up on Second Reading and the Minister may want to look at it. The Bill is a tidying-up exercise, and the matter will have to be addressed in another place or on Report. The question is whether the clause leaves open some kind of discretion. When the Select Committee considered the matter, it recommended that the clause should be tightened so that there was certainty that anonymity would be preserved. There should be no room for doubt.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)
The right hon. Gentleman is right. The protection of people who have given donations to a political party in Northern Ireland cannot be lifted retrospectively unless they give permission. If they are happy for their data to be released, the Electoral Commission may wish to do so. That, I think, is what the right hon. Gentleman is referring to. I will look at the provision again, but there is absolutely no intent whatever to release data on anybody retrospectively unless they agree to that.
Mr Dodds
I very much welcome what the Minister has said. I think that is the intent of everybody. The slight concern is about the drafting and the need for the intention to be explicitly spelled out in those terms. Some commentators have pointed out that the current wording is somewhat loose with regard to the possibility of some discretion. Given the situation with regard to litigation on these matters, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that somebody will test it in court. The provision needs to be tightened up.
Mike Penning
If there is that concern, the Government will table an amendment in the other House and close it.
Stephen Pound
This is an important aspect of the Bill that we must thoroughly ventilate. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern that although data may not be available for release, they do exist? If data are collated, stored and placed in a silo of information, there is always the fear and concern that they could be released. Examples at the moment from the other side of the Atlantic indicate that point. Does the right hon. Gentleman have any suggestions about how we could address that concern?
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about data that are held and not meant for publication yet somehow find themselves in the public domain, and we can all cite many examples of that happening in recent years. There are, of course, criminal sanctions, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything. The fact of the matter is that it depends on the good will and good faith of those who safeguard such information, and on proper security to ensure that what Parliament intends and enacts is followed through. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point that rightly concerns people, and the Government may wish to comment on what steps they are taking to ensure that information does not enter the public domain when people have been guaranteed that it will not.
Returning to amendment 2, which would remove the discretion, we put on record our concerns that donors to political parties in the rest of the UK do not face the same problems as donors to parties in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) pointed out the tremendous progress that has been made, which we all recognise, value and celebrate, but there is still a serious threat in terms of terrorism and public safety. Not long ago there was the murder of a prison officer, David Black, and there have been other serious incidents, disruptions and bomb attacks. We operate in a different climate—it is much improved and better than it used to be—but most people accept that we are still in a situation in which caution must be exercised.
As we move forward to a more normalised society, we hope that the threat from dissidents and others will recede and continue to be dealt with. As we put the violent past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans, as employed in the rest of the United Kingdom, and we support the normalisation process for political donations as outlined in the Bill.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking so many interventions. Will he kindly reflect on a question that I asked on Second Reading? While we all accept and do not query the dreadful times that all of us of a certain age have lived through in Northern Ireland, we are now in more peaceful times. Will the right hon. Gentleman quantify in numbers—this will be helpful for people at home watching the debate—the threats to current donors to the Democratic Unionist party? Is it in half dozens or dozens, and can he quantify that in changed circumstances and—thank the Lord—quieter times in Northern Ireland?
Mr Dodds
A point was made earlier—I do not know whether it came from the hon. Lady or someone else—that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee did not hear from a donor saying how afraid they would be if their identity was made public. It is not easy for people in that position, and there will not be lots of people coming forward and making their position clear. By necessity, some of these things will be done with the least publicity and information as possible from the donor’s point of view, because they want to protect their anonymity.
The Select Committee heard from the First Minister—I have already cited his evidence—from David McClarty, an independent MLA, and from representatives of my party, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the UK Independence party, which of course is becoming a major force in the rest of the United Kingdom, although not particularly in Northern Ireland, and the Ulster Unionist party. They all urged the Secretary of State to exercise caution when modifying the current confidentiality arrangements for political loans and donations in Northern Ireland. As the Committee’s report states:
“They argued that the security situation in Northern Ireland presented a barrier to implementing the same transparency regime as Great Britain because donors remained at risk of violence and intimidation”.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman is making a number of very important points. A number of the Committee’s witnesses where asked why donors would be at greater risk than candidates, for example, or those who support candidates in other ways, perhaps by delivering leaflets, displaying posters, canvassing or signing the nomination papers. Why does he think that donors would be at greater risk that those participants?
Mr Dodds
It could be argued that donors are at as great a risk as those who put themselves forward as political representatives and stand for political parties. I suppose that one reason why they might choose to be a donor, rather than a candidate, is that they do not want to attract the sort of public attention that being a full or part-time public representative brings in Northern Ireland. They want to be involved in the political process, to support it and to have their political interests advanced and their views reflected, but they do not necessarily want to get involved in politics directly. However, even being a donor can attract problems for those people. There is a difference between being a donor and standing for election as a political representative. Not everybody wants to be a political activist. I think that there is a significant difference in the level of public attention that people want to attract, and that is human nature.
Nigel Mills
I want to take the right hon. Gentleman back to the quotes he gave about the commercial risk of a boycott if someone is exposed as a political donor. The leader of the UUP and the First Minister both said that it was the security risk that justified the lack of transparency and that the commercial downsides of a boycott alone would not be a sufficient threshold. Does he agree that it is only the security risk that justifies the lack of transparency?
Mr Dodds
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. I refer him to paragraph 23 of the research paper on this matter produced by the House of Commons Library, which says:
“Mr Robinson, Mr Nesbitt and Mr Elliott all argued that security and commercial risk to donors were intrinsically intertwined”.
The responsibility for setting the timetable for removing anonymity must, in our view, remain with the Secretary of State, as is the current position under the Bill. We would urge caution as to when the decision is considered, as we noted on Second Reading, when the Secretary of State gave us an undertaking that there would be consultation not just with the Electoral Commission but with the security forces and political parties. That is absolutely right and proper.
For those reasons, we support the consensus behind the Bill and urge colleagues to consider carefully the importance and significance of our amendment 6.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
It has been a pleasure to listen to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). They made very thoughtful contributions, and I appreciate being able to listen to them.
I entirely appreciate, from my own family experience, the challenges as to why there had to be anonymity in Northern Ireland for so many years. I entirely support that, for the reasons that others have mentioned. I have a great deal of sympathy for amendment 2, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley and the hon. Member for Belfast East, which refers to a £7,500 threshold and has a provision giving people 18 months or so to make whatever substantial donations they make. A lot of thought has gone into the amendment, and in many respects I instinctively understand and appreciate it. The right hon. Member for Belfast North argued for allowing the Secretary of State to have flexibility up until October, because, sadly, the reality in Northern Ireland is that even though there have been enormous advances, things can change on a sixpence. The arguments are therefore very finely tuned.
A key part of normalisation is to make everything as equitable as possible between Northern Ireland and the UK. I fully understand the reasons for the length of time that the process has been given. I think that we are being very sensible in drawing to a close on this. If the Government cannot accept amendment 2, will the Minister categorically assure me that come October 2014 they would be absolutely cognisant of the fact that if another inappropriate excuse for a delay were implemented, it would be a very sad day for this House and for Northern Ireland? I suppose that some eagle-eyed observers will recognise that I am struggling slightly with this and reading between the lines. I would welcome our having equalisation come October 2014. That transparency is vital, and it is the next and final stage. I urge the Minister to make it very clear that while we retain the discretion up until 2014, our default position is to move towards normalisation expeditiously.
Mark Durkan
I assure the hon. Lady and her party colleagues that I certainly did not want any stray fire to land on their reputation in that regard, so I am glad to affirm that point.
However, our opposition to amendment 6 is about putting things on a level playing field for all the parties in Northern Ireland, whether nationalist, Unionist or neither. As political realignment hopefully takes shape over the years to come, there will be all sorts of shifts in how parties present themselves, on either an all-Ireland or a wider-UK basis, and how far their nationalism or Unionism is emphasised. That is why donations should be available for parties from throughout the UK and from throughout the island of Ireland. That seems to me to be fair.
Mr Dodds
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying about both the donor and the recipient making a declaration. Currently, the rules mean that individuals or companies in the Irish Republic can provide funding to Northern Ireland parties, but that is not permissible when it comes to funding for parties in the Irish Republic, so the position is even worse. How does he think his suggestion can combat that problem?
Mark Durkan
The right hon. Gentleman raises a point that throws up the conundrum that, although we are trying to legislate for Northern Ireland in broad conformity with UK legislation as it is applied for parties here, because of the circumstances in Northern Ireland, the exception is to allow donations from the south. Then there is the discrepancy in the donations rules for people in the south, whereby they can donate under one set of rules to parties in the south and under another set to parties in the north. Perhaps there is a case for saying that we should try to arrive at some conformity on donations across the island of Ireland, or that donations from the south of Ireland should conform to the southern Irish rules as well. I do not have a problem with trying to finesse some of these issues so that we are not left with too many obvious conundrums. However, the answer to the question that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has asked is not provided by amendment 6. It is not the answer to his very valid, pertinent and relevant question about the different standards for people from the south contributing donations.
I made the point on Second Reading that there were many people in the south who were originally from the north, or perhaps from this island, who had a valid and benevolent interest in the affairs of the north and who continued to make a contribution there, often through membership of public bodies. I also made the point that not all of them had been appointed to such bodies by nationalist Ministers. If such people are seen to have a valid role and to make a credible input in the best interests of Northern Ireland by way of a public appointment, I do not see why they should be precluded from doing so by way of donations to political parties.
Naomi Long
I agree entirely. There is a serious risk if people no longer trust their politicians and no longer trust their institutions to act in the public interest. The only way we can overcome that is by clearing the matter up. No party can easily defend itself while this information remains secret. I am willing to accept the Secretary of State maintaining the discretion as to when the information will be published, but I see no risk to anyone from a decision being made now that makes donors and parties aware that anything donated after January will be made public, when the Minister of State and the Secretary of State are convinced that it is safe to do so.
Mr Dodds
To be absolutely clear, what the hon. Lady is talking about is bringing forward the date from October to January. That would not have any effect on any donations up to now or any donations before January next year, so in relation to the wider issues and the context in which we are speaking about this, the measure would take effect only from next year. Is that right?
Naomi Long
That is absolutely correct. I made it clear on Second Reading that I would be in favour of any measure that retrospectively exposed donors to publication. I believe that would be unjust while there is a legal question about whether they had the expectation that donations made in the prescribed period would not be made public. At a very personal level, they understood that to be the case. If we are to have honour and integrity in politics, that should extend to people’s understanding of agreements that have been made, so I would not favour retrospective exposure. Only donations made after January would be affected and that would come about only after the Secretary of State had ruled that it was safe to do so. I therefore wish to press the matter to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Ms Ritchie
That was a useful intervention, because it illustrated the role of Members of the House of Lords. While they have clear legislative responsibilities, they also do very in-depth work. We can cast our minds back to the work done in respect of the Welfare Reform Bill, and its ping-pong nature, with the Bill going back and forth between us. Lords come from many varied backgrounds, but they do their work. The Lords may not be elected, but they do have legislative responsibilities, which naturally would clash with the responsibilities of an elected Chamber such as the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is the very problem that this measure is meant to address. I would not hold my breath about this House finally taking on the much-needed reform of the House of Lords, but if, and hopefully when, it does, would it be desirable that people can run for election and hold office, namely by having a dual mandate between the Assembly and an elected House of Lords?
It is important that this issue is sorted out now within the terms of the current Bill. I note that that position is supported by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. In so doing, we come to this issue with the premise of one Member, one Chamber. Having had the experience of serving in other Chambers, and knowing the extent and breadth and depth of work and investigative intelligence that is required of Members in all those Chambers, particularly in terms of legislation, we not only support our own amendment—amendment 20—but we also support those of the hon. Member for Belfast East.
Mr Dodds
On clause 3 and the ending of the dual mandate between Members of this House and Members of the Assembly, our party made it clear some time ago that we would be bringing this matter to the point that by 2015, as was recommended, dual mandates would be ended. We are working towards that, and it needs to be made very clear in this Committee tonight that this Bill does not end dual mandates; the parties in Northern Ireland are ending dual mandates, and they are doing so for the reasons that have been advanced, which are that we have now moved forward to a position where politics is much more stable, and the Assembly and the Executive are up and running. We are therefore in a very different position from the one we were in only a short time ago, when dual mandates were not only preferable, but essential, for the reasons laid out very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and because of the leading political figures in this House who were playing the important—the crucial—role of bringing about peace, stability and devolution in Northern Ireland. That would not have worked if there had not been that dual mandate at that time; that is absolutely the case.
There is a tendency sometimes to look at situations from the perspective of today, rather than looking at the context of the time. I want to pay tribute to all Members who held dual mandates at that time. I want to do so not because I was one of those Members who held a dual mandate, but because they put themselves and their families under enormous stress and strain in terms of the work load, but still carried out an immensely powerful job, as was recognised through the votes of the people, who consistently voted for them. Therefore it is only right and proper to pay tribute to those politicians who did that in very difficult circumstances, and who had their pay cut, we must remember—it was not as if they were doing it for two salaries. It was done for the reasons set out, and also because, to return to an earlier discussion, there were very real threats against politicians, and not too many people were prepared to come forward and put their head above the parapet. Every Member in our party, and Members of other parties as well, including the SDLP and the Alliance, suffered very severe threats at that time, and actual attacks on their person, their offices and on people close to them. That was the reality of the situation we lived in.
Naomi Long
That point was also made by the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues on Second Reading, and it is important to put on the record that nobody is suggesting that people who served during that period did not have a justification for doing so. Those who seek fast reform make the point that that period is now at an end.
Mr Dodds
Yes, that is the point that I was making and it is important to put it on the record. We are talking about the difficulties of having a double mandate, but I recall that back in the late 1970s and during most of the 1980s the original three MEPs from Northern Ireland, Ian Paisley, John Hume and John Taylor, had three mandates. Nobody is going to say to me that they did not do a very good job for Northern Ireland in Europe. I know that there was a different context and a different set-up then, but they worked very well together. I had some experience of that through working with Ian Paisley in the European Parliament, and I know that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will know about it from first-hand experience of working with John Hume. That arrangement was necessary and they did an immensely powerful job for Northern Ireland. Indeed, I recall one of those MEPs, not the one from my party, saying that on one occasion he managed to speak in Strasbourg in the morning, in the Belfast Assembly in the afternoon and in the House of Commons in the evening. I asked him whether he used the same speech, but it was not a single transferable speech. Those were different days and we accept that we have moved forward, but it is important to put on the record where we are coming from.
Let me deal with the issue of the House of Lords. The explanatory notes talk about “dual mandates” and people prevented from being a Member of both this House and the Assembly, as is right and proper. What mandate does a Member of the House of Lords have? They do not have any mandate. We have a mandate because we are elected, but a Member of the House of Lords has none because they are appointed. So this legislation does not apply to the House of Lords because it is in a different position. If the House of Lords were elected, there would be a strong argument for saying that we should be legislating to prevent dual membership there, but it is not elected and it is different. Indeed, that was one of the reasons why people opposed reforming the House of Lords, because to do so would put it on the same level as, or make it equivalent to, this House, and that would threaten the authority of this House. So this matter is summed up in the very phraseology used about ending “dual mandates”. It is right and proper to do that in respect of the House of Commons, but Members of the House of Lords do not have a mandate. They have a legislative role, but they do not have a mandate.
Mark Durkan
Is the right hon. Gentleman not trying to create a class of Members of the House of Lords who are Members of that House and sit there without a mandate, but who nevertheless have a mandate by virtue of sitting in another Assembly? He is trying to have it both ways; if he is making a virtue of their having no mandate, leave them without a mandate.
Mr Dodds
I think that when the hon. Gentleman reads that over again in Hansard, he will perhaps want to reflect on that contribution.
It is clear that we are legislating to end dual mandates. As Members of the House of Lords do not have any mandate, it does not apply to them. In any case, for the other reasons that have been set out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley, there is a difference. Interestingly, when the Secretary of State for Wales made his announcement in March, he did not include a bar on membership of the House of Lords and the Welsh Assembly; he confined it to the House of Commons. So for all those reasons, the Government are taking the right approach.
On the issue of membership of the Irish Parliament, we very much welcome the Government’s decision to follow the position of the Select Committee and to take on board the representations made on that matter. It is right and proper that that should be the case.
Finally, let me turn to the issue of non-representation—I raised this on Second Reading and return to it now—by people who have seats in this House but who do not take them and do not do the work of parliamentarians. The Minister will know that the issue has been raised and is being pursued. The Bill is not necessarily the vehicle or the means by which it should be pursued, but the Minister should rest assured that, as we talk about dual mandates and about representation and people being fit for jobs and about the jobs they are or are not doing, there remains the outstanding scandal of all—the Members of Parliament who are elected, who get money to run their parliamentary business and who get representative money for which they do not have to account in the way that we do as parliamentarians and that they can use for party political purposes. That is an issue that the House still must, and, I am sure, will, address.
Mike Penning
It is a pleasure, Ms Clark, to work under your chairmanship for the first time this evening. Yet again, we have had an interesting and wide-ranging debate—some of it within the scope of the Northern Ireland Office’s remit and some outside it. Perhaps I can address straight away one of the areas of debate we have had this evening because, although I fully respect the view, it falls outside the scope of the Bill and of my portfolio. The question of whether an MLA can sit in the European Parliament is a matter for the Cabinet Office and the UK Government as a whole. My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) can take it up with the Cabinet Office, if he wishes, but I have been strongly advised that it falls within its remit and not mine and that I therefore cannot accept the amendment.
Mr Dodds
I beg to move amendment 4, page 6, line 37, at end add—
‘7B The alteration of the number of members of the Assembly required to express
their concern about a matter which is to be voted on by the Assembly, such
concern requiring that the vote on that matter shall require cross-community
support.
This paragraph does not include the alteration of that number to a number
exceeding 30.’.
The Temporary Chair (Katy Clark)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 5, page 6, line 37, at end insert—
7B The subject matter of Sections 16, 17, and 18 of this Act.
‘(2) In Schedule 2, paragraph (b) after “sections” insert “16, 17 and 18”.’.
Clause stand part.
Mr Dodds
The purpose of clause 6 is to move the decision on the reduction in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly from the category of excepted matter to that of reserved matters, which I think has received reasonable assent in Northern Ireland. The purpose of amendments 4 and 5, which stand in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends, is simply to move into the category of reserved matters, as opposed to excepted matters, decisions relating to the appointment of the Executive and the way it is formed. Given that the number of MLAs will be reduced, we propose that all matters pertaining to the appointment of the Executive, its composition and make-up and the way the First and Deputy First Ministers are elected, and matters pertaining to opposition in the Assembly, should also be reserved matters. We believe that this would allow any political agreement negotiated by parties in Northern Ireland to be legislated for in the Assembly. It would give the Assembly the tools not only to discuss these matters, which do need to be discussed by the parties in Northern Ireland, but to agree them, of course by cross-community vote and by the normal mechanisms that require that to happen in the Northern Ireland Assembly. That would act as a bit of an incentive to allow and promote greater debate in relation to these matters.
Mike Penning
I understand exactly where the hon. Gentleman is coming from, but at the end of the day, 108 seats were created to ensure that the smaller parties were represented. It is for the people of Northern Ireland to work out among themselves, in a mature democracy, what that number should be—for instance, whether it should be five per constituency, as the hon. Member for Foyle said. I have heard the concerns about going down to four, but that is not for us to dictate. At the end of the day, this has to be decided in Northern Ireland, which is why, sadly, I ask Members to oppose the two amendments and support clause 6.
Mr Dodds
I have listened carefully to the Minister. Clearly, the contribution from the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has been received warmly because we recognise the part he played as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and as Minister of State before that; he was widely praised for his efforts during his tenure, and we thank him.
There is a view across most of the parties in Northern Ireland, with the exception, I think, of Sinn Fein, that the Assembly is too big and should be reduced in size. Until we can get that cross-community support in the Assembly, we are where we are, but at least the Bill recognises movement, in that it makes this a reserve matter, rather than an excepted matter, and so puts it more within the Assembly’s bailiwick. Our view, in tabling the amendments, was that the more that was done, the better; it shows maturity and demonstrates that the Assembly is developing. It shows that issues such as the make-up of the Executive, how it is appointed and elected, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should all be more within the remit of the Assembly.
I have heard what the Minister has said, and I also heard his earlier comments that he was listening carefully to the matters being raised and would reflect upon them. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Extension of term of Assembly
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Ms Ritchie
I approached clause 7 by way of a probing amendment that was not selected. I sought information on Second Reading about why the mandate of the current Assembly was being extended from a four-year term to a five-year term, given that the people of Northern Ireland voted for parties on the basis of four, not five years.
Many political representatives, including the current Secretary of State and the former Secretary of State, have stated that there is insufficient consensus on extending the term, while the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee compiled evidence that clearly suggested there was insufficient evidence and did not agree with extending the term to five years. I understand that three parties—at the centre, shall we say—supported extending the mandate: the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. On the other hand, the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party did not.
I believe in democracy. Members were elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly on the basis of four, not five years. That is a very different position from that in Scotland and Wales. In November 2011, when people stood for election and sought mandates in Scotland and Wales, they did so on the basis that those terms would be five years. It was very different in Northern Ireland. I did not get that mystery unlocked on Second Reading, so I now ask the deputy Secretary of State if he will provide me with an explanation; I am sure he will be happy to do so.
Mr Dodds
I want briefly to put on record our view, which we also stated on Second Reading.
We believe that the argument for moving the date of the Assembly election is strong, not least because that is what is happening for Scotland and Wales. There is no logical, coherent reason at all to challenge the Government position—that we should also extend the mandate for the Northern Ireland Assembly by one year, to ensure that a Westminster election and an Assembly election are not held on the same day. That is important because they are probably the two most important elections that are held. Council elections are obviously significant, as are elections to the European Parliament, but when we are electing the legislature and the Executive for the Northern Ireland Assembly and also representatives in this House, it is inevitable that one of those elections would dominate the media and the political debate to the exclusion of the other, to a much greater extent than with other elections. For that reason, clause 7 is important.
Dr McCrea
Does my right hon. Friend accept that some issues that are relevant for the people of Northern Ireland can be dealt with only by the Northern Ireland Assembly—as opposed to international issues, for instance—and that a clear division between the two election dates would prevent muddying of the water?
Mr Dodds
Yes, I agree with that. The decision was taken for Scotland and Wales when we debated the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, while the position in Northern Ireland was left open to allow for further consultation and discussion with the political parties there. That discussion was held. It was carried out in a very full way—indeed, in many respects there was more consultation and discussion about this issue than many others. A view was reached that is supported by a clear majority among the parties represented in the Assembly, and it is also a cross-community view. Of course, not every party agrees with it, but that is a significant development.
Naomi Long
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Government’s proposal as it stands not only ensures that the next set of elections will not happen concurrently, but reduces the opportunity for that to happen in future, with the result that there will be less ad hoc-ery—for want of a better term—in setting election dates? The Government’s proposal will ensure that they no longer coincide, which is to be welcomed.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Lady anticipates the exact point I was going to conclude with. Clause 7 takes care of the problem for 2015, but by permanently fixing the Assembly term at five years—again, as in Wales and Scotland—it also takes care of any future problems with overlaps between Assembly and Westminster elections.
For those reasons—and also because the clause ensures that Northern Ireland is absolutely four-square in line with the other devolved legislatures, in Scotland and Wales, as part of this great United Kingdom—I am more than delighted to support the Government on clause 7.
Stephen Pound
I yield to no person in my admiration for the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), for many reasons. One is because of the marvellous new expression we have heard this evening: “ad hoc-ery”. In the past we have had “what-aboutery”, but “ad hoc-ery” is absolutely marvellous—I thought he was a Taoiseach in Ireland many years ago, but that is neither here nor there.
The clause as it stands is supported by Her Majesty’s Opposition, principally because we think it is logical and sensible, and equalises the various devolved Assemblies. However, if anyone thinks that choosing a particular five-year period will ensure that no problems occur in future, they have another think coming, because there has never been a time in European political history when so many anniversaries have been queuing up to come down the road. We can therefore pretty much guarantee that whenever the Assembly votes, it will be the anniversary of something, and whenever the Assembly votes, there will be no guarantee whatever that it will be synchronous with this House. However, it would be sensible and far better—and, I think, rather more appreciated by the democratic community—if there were a fixed term in this particular case. A fixed term for this House we can discuss later, but for tonight, the position of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition is that we support the Government’s proposal that there should be a five-year term, as there is in Wales and Scotland.
Naomi Long
As I said on Second Reading, I support clause 9. I acknowledged at that time the existence of the twin anomalies that because Justice Ministers were appointed outwith the d’Hondt process, they could end up with a Ministry more than they were entitled to under d’Hondt, and could also lose that Ministry on the whim of a cross-community vote—although I must add, in fairness to parties in the Executive who may feel fearful, that that has not been exercised, or been threatened or in any other way intimated, by any of them.
I am grateful for the way in which the Government have negotiated and listened to what has been said by my party and others, and I welcome the clause. I think it important that including the Justice Minister in the d’Hondt system will result in a fairer arrangement, whether we gain or lose in party-political terms.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Lady is right to say that there has been no threat or attempt to change the Justice Minister under the current arrangement, that the Northern Ireland Office has listened, and that by and large the parties in Northern Ireland have agreed with this provision. However, in the light of what was said by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), may I ask whether she agrees with me that no attempt is being made to change the current special arrangements relating to the role and functions of the Minister vis-à-vis the Executive?
Naomi Long
That is entirely consistent with what the Government are proposing. The issue relates simply to the Minister’s appointment and security of tenure. Concerns were raised by my own party and indeed by other parties, and the Government, having listened to other parties in the Executive, took those concerns on board and formulated proposals which addressed them. That was helpful.
I have to say that my view of how an Executive should be formed in future differs from that of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and his party. We have been open and honest about the fact that we would much prefer the reforms of the Assembly to include a move away from d’Hondt and towards the election of all Ministers by means of a cross-community vote, because we believe that that would enhance collectiveness in the Executive. There would have to be agreement among the Northern Ireland parties for that to happen. I should add that I do not consider d’Hondt to be a normal way of appointing Ministers; I consider it to be a mechanism resulting from the Good Friday agreement which was required to manage an abnormal political situation. I hope that, when we seek to reform the Assembly more widely, that will be on the table for discussion along with everything else. However, I support what the Government are attempting to do, and oppose the attempt to change it.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Lady makes a fair point. I share the goal of those who want to see the extension of the GB regime to Northern Ireland, but, as I have said, I feel that the time is not right for that because the security situation has not improved enough since the rules were first devised. It is a pity, but the Bill will enable us to make progress towards the ultimate goal, which the hon. Lady and I both support.
Clauses 1 and 2 will enable us to make progress towards exactly the sort of normalisation that the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) wants to see. They will give the Government the power to use secondary legislation to increase transparency gradually, stage by stage. As a first stage, in response to the recommendations of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, we propose to move as swiftly as possible to the publication of draft secondary legislation, if the Bill passes all its parliamentary stages.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
On the question of people being in support or not in support of greater transparency—we certainly support greater transparency—will the Secretary of State acknowledge that the Electoral Commission, as well as the Social Democratic and Labour party, preferred option 3 in the Government’s option paper? It said that there were
“concerns…about the risk of intimidation of donors which justified withholding identities”.
This is not just a party political point; the independent Electoral Commission reached that conclusion, which is in line with the Government’s proposals.
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for pointing that out. Indeed, the Electoral Commission has expressed support for a number of the provisions in the Bill. We have listened carefully to the commission in preparing the Bill, given the impact that the commission has on the running of elections and the mechanics of politics in Northern Ireland.
If the Bill passes all its stages, we envisage that secondary legislation will cover matters such as the number and amount of donations, the type of donor—that is, whether they are individual or business donors—the date of the donation and whether it came from an Irish source.
Clauses 3 to 5 are a key part of the Bill and will ban the holding of dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons. That has been a matter of concern in Northern Ireland for some years and the committee formed prior to the 2006 St Andrews talks agreed that dual mandates should be phased out. Further concern was expressed during the MPs’ expenses crisis, including by the Committee on Standards in Public Life. Most important of all, an end to double-jobbing was an important commitment made in the 2010 Conservative manifesto for Northern Ireland. Clauses 3 and 5 will enable us to keep the promises we made to the electorate in 2010.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I join others in welcoming the Bill. It has had a long gestation period, and the previous Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who is now the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, heralded it as a normalisation Bill. We heard about the Bill in many meetings with him and others at the Northern Ireland Office, and we were led to believe that it would contain all sorts of wonderful, amazing things for Northern Ireland. Yes, it represents progress, but it is certainly not as far-reaching as was originally envisaged. It is certainly not as ambitious as the then Secretary of State suggested when he became the holder of that office.
The then Secretary of State said many other things, too, and I shall deal with those in a moment. One such matter was allowances for Sinn Fein Members. We have talked about dual mandates, but the issues of non-representation and the non-fulfilment of mandates are equally important. The right hon. Gentleman promised that not a single Conservative Member in this new Parliament would dream of sustaining the position whereby Members who did not take their seats could claim money and expenses. I hope that the House will shortly have an opportunity to consider that matter further.
I welcome the fact that we are debating the Bill at a time when there is no crisis in Northern Ireland relating to the Assembly or the Executive. On many occasions, we have had to debate all the stages of a Bill in one day to deal with the suspension of the Assembly, with some other crisis, or with its reinstatement. Thankfully, those days have gone and we now have relative stability. Indeed, we take that stability for granted. The very fact that we are debating an extension of the current Assembly’s term for another year, and fixed terms of five years thereafter, is in indication of the progress that has been made. Who would have previously imagined that we would be discussing these proposals here today? People would have said that we were living in fantasy land if they had been suggested before. Previous Assemblies did not have this kind of stability, and even the current one that was set up under the 1998 legislation did not have it until 2007. So we have a lot to be grateful for, and we should reflect on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, but we should not take it for granted. We must remember that there is still work to be done to ensure that that stability continues.
The Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State have mentioned that we are debating these matters against the background of a propitious event. The hosting of the G8 summit by Northern Ireland was enormously successful, and tribute has rightly been paid to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the security forces in the Irish Republic and to the help given by other British police and security services. We have had great news, too, in recent days with announcements of significant numbers of fantastic, good-quality, high-value jobs for Northern Ireland. All those announcements are highly significant. As has also been pointed out, however, major challenges remain despite the progress that has been made. The challenge posed by dissident terrorists and other republican groups is significant. The police and security services deserve all our gratitude and our support—given in material ways—to make sure that they are ready, able and fit to combat that threat.
It is also crucial that the political parties in Northern Ireland’s civic society continue to give their full support to policing, the courts and the rule of law. One deeply disturbing issue already alluded to in this debate is the selective approach to policing that we have seen in recent months from Sinn Fein. We have seen its members picketing outside police headquarters when certain people are arrested, protesting against certain investigations and now we have seen the incident mentioned by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chairman of the Select Committee, and others, in which a Sinn Fein Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive and a Sinn Fein member of the Policing Board, Gerry Kelly, were both seen openly obstructing police and clambering on police vehicles at a peaceful parade held in my Belfast North constituency last Friday.
Clearly, there is outrage at this loutish and hooligan behaviour. It is not the job of Assembly Members, elected representatives or members of the Policing Board to interfere in that way in the conduct of police operational matters. Holding the police to account is not, as Gerry Kelly seems to think, a question of clambering on a police vehicle and trying to stop an arrest. It is about doing the job of being a member of the Policing Board by asking questions or coming to this House, if elected to it, and asking questions; it is not about vandalism or the loutish behaviour and hooliganism that we have seen. I have written to the Chief Constable today to ask what action he is going to take to investigate fully and ensure that action is taken against those who engage in this kind of provocative behaviour, which could have resulted in serious trouble. As we saw on the night, these actions led to others getting involved in attacking the police vehicle. There are challenges that we in Northern Ireland face.
Let me move on to the details of the Bill. It does not go as far as was first envisaged, but significant progress has been made on donations, dual mandates, the removal of some powers from the excepted category to the reserved category, and justice powers. I shall deal with each of those briefly in turn.
The issue of political donations and loans falls into three main areas: transparency of donors, the timetable for moving to full transparency and—this is an issue that the Secretary of State only glanced over—an anomaly that will remain, despite the Bill, in that donations will still be able to be made to Northern Ireland parties from individuals and bodies outside the United Kingdom.
This party supports in principle having as much transparency as possible when it comes to donations. There have obviously been good reasons in Northern Ireland for granting exceptions to the rules that apply to parties in the rest of the United Kingdom. Evidence about the security situation presented to the Select Committee in its investigation of this Bill cannot be set to one side. That evidence has come from not just the Unionist side, but the nationalist side and, as I mentioned in my intervention on the Secretary of State, the independent Electoral Commission. It shows that many brave individuals and businesses stepped forward during the darkest of days to make donations. They took great personal and corporate risks coming forward with donations, and their main concern was rightly—there is evidence that when the donations were discovered, these things did happen—that they would suffer personal loss, a downturn in trade and, in some cases, even physical attack. The intimidation was a real threat and was certainly a clear attempt to silence people and prevent them from participating in the democratic process.
As we in Northern Ireland move forward and put the violence of the past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans that is similar to that used in the rest of the United Kingdom. That should apply not only to transparency issues, but to all aspects of donations, such as who can donate. From 2014 onwards, why should there be any exceptions at all?
We support the commitment in the Bill not to publish retrospectively the names of past donors. Any future reform must safeguard the trust that people in the past have placed in the system, to protect them, their families and their businesses from disclosure.
Lady Hermon
On transparency of political donations, I agree that donors to any political party were under real and significant threat in the past, but in the present changed circumstances in Northern Ireland that we enjoy by and large—thank goodness—will the right hon. Gentleman say, without disclosing their identities and breaching confidentiality, whether it is tens, dozens or one or two donors to the Democratic Unionist party who currently feel threatened by violence?
Mr Dodds
I can do no better than to quote the leader of my party and First Minister of Northern Ireland, who, as stated in the House of Commons Library research paper, shared the concerns of other parties, including the Ulster Unionists, in saying in evidence to the Select Committee:
“In the past, businesses and businesses were attacked because of their association either with security forces or with one section of the community. You cannot be cavalier about these issues because they are real. Even if it did not happen, there would certainly be the perception among those who might be willing to donate that it could.”
I will go even further and quote the leader of the SDLP, the hon. Member for South Down—[Hon. Members: “South Belfast.”] I apologise to both the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), the leader of the SDLP, who said in evidence to the Select Committee—I know he is more than capable of speaking for himself—that
“we feel that we were particularly vulnerable…in that some of our donors felt vulnerable and threatened…Sometimes the threat is not even direct, but people are put under pressure and told, ‘You gave the SDLP £1,000 this week; we think that we are entitled to £2,000 this week’. The threat is at that level. In a situation in which there are still a handful of people moving about with guns, that threat is there.”
I agree with the leader of the SDLP, with the leader of my party and with the Government, who have got this issue right. The Electoral Commission—an independent, not party political, body—also expressed such concerns.
I also fully endorse the recommendation of the Select Committee that the clause should be amended so as to provide that the Electoral Commission in future—from 2014 onwards, not going backwards—can disclose donor identity only where there is express consent from the donor; under the Bill as currently worded, such information can be published where there are “reasonable grounds” to believe that there was consent.
On the timetable for moving to transparency, I listened to what the Secretary of State has said: the Bill does not implement any provision, but simply gives the power to the Secretary of State to bring forward legislation in future for achieving greater transparency. At that point, a strong degree of caution and common sense will still need to be exercised because of the continued dissident threat to which we have referred.
The Bill states that the Electoral Commission must be consulted, but—with due respect to the commission—I think that there should also be consultation with the security forces and with the police in particular, and also with the political parties in Northern Ireland. I would be grateful for the Secretary of State’s assurance that this will not simply involve the thoughts and minds of the Electoral Commission, and that there will be a much wider consultation.
Mrs Villiers
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. Of course it would be very important to consult the Police Service of Northern Ireland and others with knowledge of the security situation, but when proceeding with any transparency arrangements, we would want to consult widely with others, including the political parties.
Mr Dodds
I am grateful for that undertaking. In Committee, we may return to the question of how the Bill might reflect it more clearly.
Let me now turn to the issue of donations made by individuals and bodies outside the United Kingdom. The Select Committee made the welcome recommendation that the loophole represented by an anomaly, or special provision, should be closed. We will, of course, examine the issue in more detail during the Bill’s Committee stage.
Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, political parties registered in Great Britain are permitted to accept donations only from UK residents and bodies. The Act extends to parties in Northern Ireland, but parties registered there may accept donations from citizens and bodies in the Irish Republic. Why was the Act brought into being? It was brought into being so that the public—the people who send us to this place—could have some degree of certainty that those who gave money to political parties had a stake in this country, and in affairs of state here. They did not want political parties to be flooded with money from people in the United States, Europe and elsewhere who had interests in the making of certain decisions, but who did not vote here, represent anyone here, or have any stake in this country other than, for instance, a commercial stake. The Act was introduced for very good reasons, yet an exception was made in the case of Northern Ireland.
Individuals and bodies in the Republic of Ireland can donate to parties in Northern Ireland in a way that contravenes the law of that country. Worse still, however, owing to our inability to regulate donations of this kind, those individuals and bodies can be used as a front for donations from other foreign or overseas countries. The Select Committee’s recognition of that problem led it rightly to recommend that the anomaly be removed.
Here we all are, saying that Northern Ireland should be subject to the same level of transparency in respect of donations and identity as every other part of the United Kingdom. We ask “Why should Northern Ireland be any different?” But why should Northern Ireland be any different when it comes to who can donate to political parties? There is no reason at all why it should. I hope that, as we consider the Bill further in the House and in Committee, Members and, in particular, the Government will look afresh at the issue. If the Government fail to close this loophole, they may rightly stand accused of giving preferential treatment to certain political parties for political reasons.
Whatever the causes for the arguments of the past, those reasons certainly do not exist today. There should be a level playing field for all political parties in Northern Ireland. There should be the same rules for all of them, and there should be the same benefits, if possible, in terms of donations for all political parties. This anomaly was introduced for one reason: to allow Sinn Fein, and other nationalists, to get money from America, channelled into Northern Ireland via the Irish Republic. That is why this was implemented. That is the reason it was allowed, and if it is allowed to continue, that will be an indictment of this House, particularly at a time when people are so concerned about the funding of political parties.
We support the provision to extend the term of the Assembly to 2016. We disagree with the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), on that point, but not because we think people in Northern Ireland will not be able to understand voting in different elections on the same day. Northern Ireland’s citizens have a long and admirable track record of being able not only to vote in different elections on the same day, but to use different electoral systems, and to do so very successfully. The terrible outcome in Scotland recently, when there was a dual election that led to thousands of spoiled ballot papers, has never happened to the same degree in Northern Ireland.
We wanted the extension of the Northern Ireland Assembly term because it has been extended in Scotland and in Wales. In both those jurisdictions, there is now a five-year fixed term. I welcome the fact that today, in this Bill, Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom, is being treated like Scotland, Wales and the other parts of the United Kingdom—and quite right too, as there is no logic whatever in saying we should be treated differently. It means that, as the Secretary of State has said, when there is an Assembly election, Assembly issues will be to the fore, and when there is a Westminster election, the issues affecting this House and Westminster representation will be debated, and there will be no confusion of the two sets of issues. That is very important.
Mr Laurence Robertson
There are, of course, two issues here: one is whether this particular Assembly term should be extended, and then whether we should move to five-year terms. The right hon. Gentleman puts a logical case for having five-year terms, but surely the Assembly did not need to be extended in this term. I think that was probably the more important point we were making.
Mr Dodds
Actually, the reason for that is the fact that, given the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2012, we will have a clash in May 2015. That is what makes it imperative that action is taken in this Parliament. The dates of the Scottish parliamentary and Welsh Assembly elections were moved for precisely that reason. If we do not take action, in two years’ time there will be elections on the same day for Parliament and in Northern Ireland. That is why this measure has been brought forward.
Lady Hermon
May I preface my remarks by saying it is wonderful to see the right hon. Gentleman back on great form? I might not agree with half of what he is saying, but I am delighted to see him, as a great parliamentarian, back and on great form.
May I make an imaginary journey forward to 2016, when we will—unfortunately, from my perspective—have an Assembly election? The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will be well aware of the fact that the Easter of 2016 will be celebrated, and that could be very divisive, as that Easter marks the centenary of a significant event. Does the right hon. Gentleman have concerns—and I do just mean concerns—about that being exploited by a particular party in Northern Ireland to its advantage?
Mr Dodds
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her very kind remarks. It is great to be back, and there is no better occasion to be back for than this debate on the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It is a great Bill and reminds me why I entered politics in the first place.
I understand where the hon. Lady is coming from, but I cannot agree with her. The Easter rising centenary will be commemorated in 2016, but the Unionist perspective will be, “100 years on and still no united Ireland”. One hundred years on from the Easter rising and Ulster—Northern Ireland—is more firmly part of the United Kingdom than it has ever been.
Mr Dodds
I am absolutely delighted that the hon. Lady asked that question. I look forward to her, like me, celebrating in 2016 and also commemorating another significant historic event in Northern Ireland—the anniversary of the Somme—on 1 July, as so many Ulster men gave their lives on the first day of that enormous battle. There will be many commemorations, centenaries and anniversaries affecting Northern Ireland in 2016 and the coming years, so I understand what she is saying. Although I do not agree with her on that point, I am sure she will respect my view on the issue.
Let me deal briefly with the change in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Secretary of State has said, the powers will change from being in an excepted category to being in the reserved category. The Northern Ireland Assembly will, thus, be able to legislate, with the consent of the Westminster Parliament, and that is right and proper. We believe that there should be more such provisions, making it easier for the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate in other areas, such as its working, the make-up of the Executive and how they are formed. Of course, this should be done on a cross-community basis and as a result of negotiation, agreement and a cross-community vote, but it would send a strong signal that more of those powers are for the people and parties in Northern Ireland to agree.
Of course, Northern Ireland is over-represented, but we have 108 Members because the parties that supported the Belfast agreement in 1998 wanted the Assembly to be that big. We opposed that, for the reasons of over-representation that many Members are now talking about. The choice of six Members per constituency was a blatant attempt, once again, to get smaller parties that were, at that stage, in favour of the Belfast agreement into the Assembly at the expense of others. It did not work out that way because the Northern Ireland electorate had much greater common sense, voting for parties that would fight for change and reform, and for a better way forward. We achieved that, which is why we have the stability we have had since 2007.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I wish to add a little information and insight. When strand 1 was negotiated, the agreement between the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party on that holy Thursday night or early hours of Good Friday was for a 90-Member Assembly based on five-seat constituencies. What we disagreed on was whether there should also be a top-up, in either the first Assembly or, possibly, the first and second Assemblies, of an additional 10 Members that could account for smaller parties that might be under-represented because of the spread of the vote. That idea was not agreed by the UUP and, in the absence of agreement between us, Tony Blair stipulated it had to be six-Member constituencies—108 Members. None of the Northern Ireland parties proposed that.
Mr Dodds
Ninety, plus, as I understand it, a further top-up, which would bring the figure to 100. So they wanted a significantly larger Assembly than the one we want to see nowadays. The second thing we learned from the hon. Gentleman’s contribution was, once again, how much in debt we are to Tony Blair for so much in the political process, both here and in Northern Ireland! Whoever speaks for Labour will doubtless want to defend what Tony Blair did in that regard.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Does the right hon. Gentleman also feel that John Major played a significant part in the whole process, kicking it off in the first place?
Mr Dodds
I was not getting into the issue of credit for the peace process as a whole; I was only making reference to Tony Blair’s contribution to having a bloated Assembly in Northern Ireland. I do not think that John Major would want to be associated with that. I gladly pay tribute to John Major and others on both sides who have played a significant role in the peace process. I am glad to put that on the record.
With no difference between the views of the political parties in Northern Ireland, most of its parties are on the record as supporting a reduction in the size of the Assembly. The DUP, the Alliance party, the UUP, the SDLP and many independent Members are in favour, but Sinn Fein is not. Let us be clear that the reason we are not getting this reduction is not because the Assembly Members all want to keep their positions and the parties all want to keep the same numbers; it is because one party, Sinn Fein, refuses to accept that, in this day and age so many years on from the 1998 agreement and St Andrews, there is no need to have 108 Members any more. Let us put the focus squarely where it belongs, just as we need to do with the “blame”, if I may put it like that, for the national security issues. Again, they are the result of one or two parties in Northern Ireland taking a particular stand.
On the issue of dual mandates, our position is clear: they are being phased out. The Bill does not bring an end to dual mandates; the political parties in Northern Ireland are bringing an end to them. We in the DUP are certainly doing that. We made a commitment that by 2015 they would be phased out, in line with the recommendations made by the independent body—I cannot remember its name, because we had so many of these bodies at one time. That was what was said should be done, we committed to it and it is what we are doing. The Bill’s provisions outlawing dual mandates should apply to Scotland and Wales as well. I am glad to hear that the Welsh First Minister is introducing such proposals, but they should also apply to Scotland—Northern Ireland should not be unique in this regard.
The issue of non-representation also needs to be addressed. I alluded to it at the start of my remarks and I will close with it. Although it is not a matter for legislation, it is a matter for the resolution of this House—it is a House of Commons issue. It is a scandal that there are Members elected to this House who do not do their jobs and do not carry out parliamentary activity but get expenses, allowances and money, and not just to carry out their constituency duties—through representative money they get money to campaign. The rest of us are bound by the rules of this House and are rightly accountable for our expenditure for parliamentary purposes, but these people can spend this money for party political purposes and not a word is asked about it.
That special provision was brought in, again, under Tony Blair’s premiership. The then Secretary of State, John Reid, brought it in. It was opposed by the then Conservative Opposition, as it had been by the previous Speaker, Betty Boothroyd, and others. Sinn Fein had challenged all the way to the courts—European Courts—and had been defeated, but it was introduced as a special concession because it was argued at that time that it was necessary to bring Sinn Fein into the political process. If anyone can argue today that Sinn Fein is not in the political process, I would find it staggering. The time has now come for the House to address this issue. If we are concerned about dual mandates and about people being in two places at once, we cannot ignore the glaring issue about non-representation and a special status given to Members who do not attend. Their arrangement is actually advantageous and better than the position given to Members who do take their seats.
Mark Durkan
It is not often that I stand up to defend the former Secretary of State John Reid from criticism about his time in Northern Ireland but the measure on Opposition party money and the special terms given to Sinn Fein was actually introduced by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) when he was Secretary of State. He said that it was a necessary measure for the peace process. He refused to answer when asked what promise or threat made it so necessary, but confirmed that Sinn Fein could use the money for entirely different purposes from anybody else.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point out the glaring discrepancy in accountability arrangements for this money. That is not tolerable, because all the political parties that take their seats in this House are at a disadvantage compared with Members who do not take their seats and who can use the representative money for whatever they like.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is ironic that somebody like me, as the sole Member from a party, has no access to such money whereas multiple Members of another party who never turn up to this place to do the work they are elected to do have access to it for policy support and development?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has been making his comeback with an amazing tour de force and has been very generous in giving way, but I gently point out that he has now been speaking for 34 minutes and quite a few of his colleagues wish to speak as well. As much as we are enjoying his speech, I am sure that he is going to give us his final words about his views on the Bill.
Mr Dodds
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I have had so many weeks to ponder and consider the contents of the Bill in relative peace and quiet that I have become carried away. I agree with the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). Following your injunction, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not go into detail on the various issues to do with the changes to the rules of court, sharing biometric data, equality and so on—not that I had very much to say about them.
The Bill is relatively modest, but it is significant in the context in which it has been introduced. It is significant in that it moves things forward in Northern Ireland, which is important because when all else is stripped away, the most important thing for those of us who represent the Province here in this House of Commons is to keep Northern Ireland moving forward.
Dr McDonnell
I am not sure what answer I am supposed to give, or what answer is expected. I do not think that any of us pay much attention to opinion polls yet, at the same time, we can quote selectively from them when it suits.
Mr Dodds
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. A moment ago, the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) was challenged about his party’s support for the naming of a playground after an IRA terrorist. Rather than answering the point, he used the term “bigots” to refer to hon. Members in a somewhat childish reaction, instead of responding to the substantive point. Can you give a ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker, on the use of the term “bigot” as parliamentary language to refer to hon. Members?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is why I interrupted the debate. This is about having a temperate debate. It is about using moderate language. We do not want to inflame the debate. That is why I interrupted in the way that I did. I do not think that it was an appropriate use of the word, but I made that point at the time. We have moved on, and it is about making sure that it is a debate in which people have respect for one another. We are in danger of losing that respect with the use of inflammatory language.
Dr McDonnell
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. For the record, I did not accuse any hon. Member. I referred to a group of—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker
Before we get too far with further points of order, I know that reference was not made to an individual Member, but the Members to whom the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) referred were sitting behind him. In a sense, it was a collective use of the word. I do not want to prolong this. I have given my view and I want to hear more of the hon. Gentleman’s speech.
Mr Donaldson
Just as, no doubt, the SDLP opposed the extension of local government terms that occurred in Northern Ireland. Let us not hear this drivel about how it is somehow undemocratic in principle to move the date of an election. When it suited the SDLP’s political purposes to have the term of the Assembly extended, the term of the Assembly was extended by fiat of the Northern Ireland Office—not even by coming to this House.
Mr Dodds
Given that these points were made so strongly by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), it is right that we get the facts right. As for local government, this is not ancient history. Only in the last mandate, the term of local government was extended from elections in 2009 to elections in 2011, so that instead of serving four years, councillors had six years. The SDLP did not object—[Interruption.] It did not object. In fact, it supported the move.
Mr Donaldson
I thank my right hon. Friend for making precisely the point that I have been making: when it is politically advantageous for members of the SDLP to do something, principle does not come into it, but when they consider themselves potentially disadvantaged—I am not sure why they feel they in particular would be disadvantaged by this provision of the Bill—all of a sudden, they find a principle on which to take a stand. Well, we are not into revisionism. Madam Deputy Speaker, if you study the psychology of Northern Ireland, you will find that there are two different approaches to history: there is the revisionist approach, where you rewrite the facts to suit your argument, depending on where you are standing at the time; and then there is the approach that says that what is fact is fact, and it should be recorded as fact. On this issue—
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
As my hon. Friend the Minister of State has emphasised, a legislative consent motion on the NCA is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive. We are disappointed that they have not taken up our offer for the NCA to operate in devolved spheres. I can reassure the House that the NCA will be able to operate in relation to matters that are not devolved, including HMRC matters and fuel fraud.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Further to the supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley), can the Secretary of State tell us how many Army personnel, if any, are going to be deployed for the G8 summit, in addition to the 3,800 volunteers from other police services in the United Kingdom? How are the security costs being met, in terms of Westminster and the Northern Ireland Assembly?
Mrs Villiers
The vast majority of the costs of the G8 summit will be met by the Government, although a small amount may fall to the Executive to meet. We are doing our very best to ensure that that is kept as low as possible, and we believe that the G8 summit will have a very significant positive economic benefit for Northern Ireland. The military are providing a number of specialist services to support the security effort. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am unable to give details of operational matters of that nature, but these services are routine for events on this scale and previous G8-type events.
Mr Dodds
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer.
On her discussions with the Irish Foreign Minister more generally, she will be aware, as will the House, of the serious attacks mounted against Police Service of Northern Ireland officers recently in Dunmurry and in my constituency, where police officers came within inches of death at the hands of republicans. What is her assessment of the current strength of these republican groups now operating against the police? What numbers are involved? What steps will she take further to strengthen the PSNI in its battle against them?
Mrs Villiers
I fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the seriousness of the terrorist threat from dissident republicans. There have been eight national security attacks this year, but the better news is that there have also been 68 arrests and 32 charges for terrorist-related offences and DR-related crime. We are doing everything we can to support the PSNI with the £200 million we added to its settlement in this comprehensive spending review. We continue discussions with the Treasury on adding to that funding in the next CSR period. The threat continues to be severe, but the UK Government are absolutely committed to doing everything we can to counter terrorism, both domestic and international.
Northern Ireland
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Mrs Villiers
Obviously, I do not have standing to dictate to the ombudsman what they choose to do with their report, but I am certainly happy to look further into that matter and come back to the hon. Lady about it. I am grateful for her praise of the work done by my predecessor and the Prime Minister.
We are all, of course, concerned about unemployment in Northern Ireland, as it remains far too high, particularly among young people. It is the case that some parts of the community feel that the peace process has not delivered all they hoped it would, so we want to do more to strengthen the economy and help Northern Ireland in the global race for investment and jobs. That is why the Prime Minister decided to bring the G8 summit to County Fermanagh in June. I am grateful for the support for that decision expressed by the hon. Member for Gedling, both in the past and today. This provides us with an unprecedented opportunity to market Northern Ireland as a great place to visit and to do business with. I am working with the Executive to make the most of all the opportunities that that brings us.
I agree that, despite the progress that has been made over the years, it cannot be right that there are still some deep-seated divisions in parts of Northern Ireland society. As I go round Northern Ireland, I see many excellent examples of initiatives designed to bring people together, such as the Jethro centre in Lurgan, Forthspring in West Belfast, and Intercomm in North Belfast. As the flags-related disorder demonstrated, however, more needs to be done to build mutual understanding and mutual trust across sectarian divides.
Policy responsibilities for community relations are devolved, but this Government have always been keen to work with the Executive and to support them in moving things forward. During his visits to Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister highlighted the importance he places on this issue.
Following the meeting with the Prime Minister and the First and Deputy First Ministers in March, we are working with the Executive on a substantial new economic package, alongside measures that we hope will build a more cohesive and stable society.
The package is in addition to the support Northern Ireland already receives from the UK Government. The Government are examining ideas on making enterprise zones more attractive, helping the Executive to take forward infrastructure projects, improving access to bank finance, and various other measures. Meanwhile, the Executive have the opportunity to use their devolved responsibilities to develop economic and social measures, including work on a shared future which we are all committed to delivering.
Put simply, this is a two-way street: the greater the Executive’s ambition, the more the Government will be able to do to support and help them. This is about partnership and working together on our shared goals, and I am optimistic about the chances of achieving a good outcome for Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Gedling spoke about dealing with the past.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Before the right hon. Lady leaves the point about the provision of extra help for Northern Ireland, she will be aware that a different interpretation was put on her remarks, not least by people in the Belfast Telegraph who described what she said as tantamount to blackmail. They feared that money might be withheld unless politicians in Stormont made a certain amount of progress, as viewed by the Government. Will she clarify exactly what she means in her approach to this matter? Clearly, what she has enunciated today is certainly a more constructive way of putting it, but can she rule out the suggestion or fear among many that this money will be held as a form of blackmail to get the Executive to do certain things?
Mrs Villiers
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that this package is about working together. The shared objective of the Northern Ireland Executive and the UK Government is to rebalance the economy and to address sectarian divisions, and we feel that we have a good opportunity to work together on those crucial issues. As I have said, the package is about new measures and new ways of supporting the Northern Ireland economy, rather than any subtraction from the existing support for Northern Ireland.
As the hon. Member for Gedling will appreciate, this is no easy issue. His party’s Government tried to resolve it, but were unable to do so, because they could not build enough support for the legislation that they were considering. It is important to accept that the UK Government do not own the past, and that progress cannot be made solely at their behest. Progress requires the building of consensus between different sides and different parties in Northern Ireland. We are certainly willing to play our part in efforts to deal with these matters, as was demonstrated by the Prime Minister’s response to the Bloody Sunday report and the de Silva review, but we do not believe that singling out a few more cases for costly open-ended inquiries is the right way forward.
I pay tribute to the work that is being done by many groups and organisations in Northern Ireland to help people understand the past and give them a chance to tell their stories. Yesterday I visited the University of Ulster to learn more about its CAIN-ARK network, a resource shared with Queen’s University Belfast which has had 64 million page views and which contains a huge amount of material on the troubles. I encourage anyone who wants to understand Northern Ireland’s past to visit the website.
Fifteen years ago, the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland made an historic choice: they decided that their future would be determined by democracy and not by violence. The Belfast agreement and its successors have given us a platform on which to build a new, confident, inclusive and modern Northern Ireland whose best days lie ahead. There is no doubt that we have come a long way—in many respects, Ireland is unrecognisable in comparison with the place that it was two decades ago when John Major made the Downing Street declaration—but much remains to be done to heal long-standing divisions in Northern Ireland society. In a number of ways, the peace process is still “work in progress”.
No one should doubt the determination of the UK Government to move forward, working in partnership with both the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish Government, in our efforts to create a peaceful, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland of which all its citizens can be proud.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to follow the Secretary of State. I apologise to both the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), and the Secretary of State for having been absent for part of their speeches; I had to give evidence to a Committee upstairs.
I welcome the debate and thank the hon. Member for Gedling for choosing the subject and for the way in which the motion is worded. I think it right to acknowledge the progress that has been made in recent years, and I trust that the motion will gain the full support and endorsement of Members in all parts of the House.
Both the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State spoke of the enormous progress that has been made, and rightly described the present situation in Northern Ireland as being virtually unrecognisable in comparison with the situation 30 or even 20 years ago. We do not underestimate the violence and the threat that are out there, or the concern that exists among members of society as a whole and among the security forces about the harm that could be inflicted by some of the terrorists who are intent on disrupting society. We bear in mind the terrible murder of David Black, and other incidents in which members of the security forces have narrowly escaped injury and death. We know of the fantastic work done by our security forces in daily protecting life and limb, and the interventions and interceptions which, in various instances—almost too numerous to recall here—have thwarted violent attacks by terrorists. We acknowledge the great progress that has been made, and, while we also recognise the challenges that are out there, everyone in society should bear in mind the enormous strides that have been made in terms of political stability.
It is now taken for granted that the Northern Ireland Assembly will see out its full term, and will see out its next term in full as well. However, not long ago—not 20 years ago but less than five or six years ago—people were predicting that the Assembly would not last four months, let alone four years.
We opposed the Belfast agreement because of its inherent flaws and the fact that people who were in government were still not supporting the police and the rule of law; they were still with the armed gunmen and we still had no decommissioning. We opposed all that, and I remember the Prime Minister of the day, Tony Blair, telling us it was impossible to get an alternative. But we did get an alternative, and we did so because we insisted that the rule of law had to be paramount, that there had to be support for the police and that both sides of the community had to give their support and consent to the institutions in Northern Ireland. That was the fatal flaw with the Anglo-Irish agreement we debated not long ago in this House and also with the Belfast agreement.
Thankfully, however, as the opinion polls bear out, in the period since 2006-07, there has been overwhelming support for the Assembly and the institutions, on the basis that everybody is now involved—everybody has given their consent and everybody has been consulted. While it is far from perfect, it has at least gone through that important democratic test. Under the Belfast agreement, the Assembly crashed three or four times, but we have had a period of stability since 2007.
There is also increased support for the Union, as has been alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson). One of the most important and significant developments in recent years has been the increased support for the Union in all sections of the community. Those who describe themselves as British have, of course, always supported the link with the rest of the United Kingdom, but the numbers of those who describe themselves as nationalists and those who now describe themselves as Northern Irish who say they wish to remain part of the United Kingdom or that they would not vote for a united Ireland have also increased very considerably. That, too, is a mark of the progress that has been made.
Of course people have the absolute right to wish to leave the United Kingdom and join in a different set of arrangements, as long as they pursue those objectives politically and democratically, but what is happening in Northern Ireland is clear evidence that people are increasingly content to work within the parameters of the United Kingdom. Indeed, a recent opinion poll in the Belfast Telegraph showed there was a majority for that in every county in Northern Ireland, and, indeed, a majority among nationalist voters overall. That is extremely significant, and it was unimaginable 20 years ago.
Naomi Long
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that those opinion poll findings are the reason why, despite Sinn Fein having launched its campaign for a border poll with great fanfare, we have not heard much about it since?
Mr Dodds
That is absolutely right and, interestingly, when Sinn Fein voters were polled, a quarter of them also said they would stay in the United Kingdom. So, certainly from our perspective, things are changing in Northern Ireland in a positive and good way.
We face a number of challenges, however, including some major economic issues. We have heard a lot about them already today. In trying to build the economy, tourism is a key sector, and today is Titanic Belfast’s first anniversary. That is an iconic building, and I take some pride in it because I brought the project to the very first meeting of the Executive when I was Economy Minister in 2007, and we managed to get some substantial financial support for it. People at that stage queried whether it would be a success, but today it can be proved that it has been a success, because in the first year there have been 807,340 visitors, almost half a million of them from outside Northern Ireland and from 128 different countries. That contributed almost £30 million to the economy. It is a fantastic benefit to Belfast and to Northern Ireland as a whole. It is a world-class tourism project and product.
I recently visited the Giant’s Causeway visitor centre, built under the Northern Ireland Executive, which is attracting lots of visitors, again from outside Northern Ireland, which is the key point because it has added value to the economy. In 2012, the Olympic year, hotel occupancy in Northern Ireland in June was at the same level as that in central London, which is incredible when one thinks about it.
Ian Paisley
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to put his finger on where visitors are coming from. It is not a marginal outside increase. Apparently, of the million people who have visited the Giant’s Causeway and the Titanic centre this year, 60% are from outside the United Kingdom.
Mr Dodds
Yes, and these are very important figures, because in the past a lot of tourist attractions were dependent on repeat visitors from within Northern Ireland or from over the border, which is increasingly unsustainable in the long run. But sights of the magnitude of the Giant’s Causeway, the Titanic, St Patrick’s trail and Londonderry and the walls are all great visitor attractions. Londonderry is the UK city of culture this year. We have the G8 coming to Fermanagh as well, so there are lots of fantastic things happening in Northern Ireland. When we consider what it was like just a generation ago, we can see what can be done when politics works, and we all have a part to play in building on the peace and stability that has underpinned that progress.
Recently, of course, times have been tough. Despite the economic downturn and recession, we have still been able in Northern Ireland to attract high degrees of foreign direct investment. We are still the second best area in the United Kingdom outside London for attracting such investment, which is a very significant statistic. In the past five years, the Northern Ireland Executive have spent more on infrastructure—roads, schools, hospitals and housing—than at any time in Northern Ireland’s history. More jobs than at any time in history have been delivered by the Executive, at a time when we are delivering the lowest local taxes in the whole of the United Kingdom. Peace, stability and opportunity make a real difference to the lives of those who live in Northern Ireland.
That said, Mr Deputy Speaker—I am conscious of your earlier injunction—I want to say that it is important, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, that the Government act on corporation tax. While we welcome the moves that were made in terms of the help that the Secretary of State enunciated and the financial backing given to the Executive, and although the Executive have done a considerable amount on business rates and domestic rates and in helping lending to small businesses, and in backing the work of Invest Northern Ireland, there is no doubt, and it is the consensus among the political parties in Northern Ireland, and among business and industry, that what is needed is a game changer. If we are to alleviate high unemployment and reduce dependency on the public sector, something like the devolution of corporation tax is needed to make that happen. Of course, it is important that we retain our 100% regional aid status as far as Europe is concerned.
As for the political challenges that we faced, very briefly we have come a long way to achieve the stability and durability of the Executive and the Assembly. That must not be underestimated and should never be taken for granted. We all must continue to work hard to make sure that it is not undermined. But there is a case to be made—the people of Northern Ireland on all sides have expressed this many, many times—for reducing the bureaucracy surrounding the Assembly and the Government Departments. We have too many Government Departments with too big an Assembly. Too much is being spent on governing the place.
I welcome the fact that the review of public administration will reduce the number of councils, streamlining local government. We on the DUP Benches support the reduction in the size of the Assembly, support the reduction in the size of Government and support the idea of introducing an Opposition to the Assembly set-up, but there are other parties in the Assembly that, to varying degrees, do not lend support to that. I hope that, in the coming years, we can look back on this debate and say, “From then on, there was the desire to make devolution, and the Assembly and the Executive, work even better.”
The issues to do with the shared future, the past and how we can ensure that all sections of our community benefit from peace and stability, are absolutely key. I do not have time to go into all those, but it is incumbent on us all to work together—all the political parties in Northern Ireland, with the Government here—to move these issues forward. They cannot be left in abeyance. It is absolutely critical. I know that in the constituency that I represent, North Belfast, there are many people who, when they consider the impact of welfare reforms, or the economy, or the reductions in the public sector, and the wider political process, do have a sense of grievance. While we acknowledge and address those issues, it is the job of all of us to ensure that the positive is put forward, that we continue the progress of the last 15 years over the next 15 years, and that we continue to build on the peace and stability that has been created in Northern Ireland.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
The attempted terrorist attack this week demonstrates how severe the terrorist threat continues to be in Northern Ireland. It was only through the highly effective action of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners that mass casualties were averted. The Government remain vigilant in the face of the threat and have included it as a tier 1 priority in their national security strategy.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
The interception of the mortar bomb attack prevented a devastating attack on Londonderry and saved lives. In the light of the string of attacks and attempted attacks from that particular quarter, will the Secretary of State tell us what extra resources she is going to give to the police and the security forces in Northern Ireland in the coming year to counter the dissident terrorist threat?
Mrs Villiers
The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that shortly after taking office the coalition devoted an extra £200 million to national security priorities in Northern Ireland, which has been tremendously helpful to the PSNI, not least in enabling it to replace its Land Rover fleet. We will continue our discussions on the successor funding when that £200 million runs out, and we continue to do everything we can to support the PSNI and its partners, and the Northern Ireland Executive, in countering this threat.
Mr Dodds
The Secretary of State will be aware that some of those involved in the dissident terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland who have been charged with the most serious offences, including murder, have been released on bail in recent days, while others who have been involved in the protests and who are likely to receive a non-custodial sentence have been remanded on bail. Does she understand the bewilderment of most ordinary people in Northern Ireland at that situation, and the anger that is perpetuated in the community by what is perceived to be this double standard?
Mrs Villiers
The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that those are matters for the courts, not for me as Secretary of State and not for the police. I am afraid that the courts make their own decisions on those matters, taking into account the risk of reoffending.
Londonderry and the City of London
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Mark Field
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and naturally I will come on to this issue later. I only hope that the coffers of the City of London will be strong enough to ensure that we will not have to wait another 400 years until there is another such glorious dinner in the Guildhall.
Of course, part and parcel of the creation of Londonderry was the creation of the Honourable the Irish Society, which was created by the same royal charter of 1613. I am sure that everyone here in Westminster Hall today is aware that the relationship between London and Londonderry is one that has had its fair ups and downs during the past four centuries. More importantly, however, the relationship between the City of London and Londonderry presents unique opportunities. In many ways, with the recent focus upon the Northern Ireland economy, the timing for this debate could not be more apt.
I am sure that hon. Members are conscious of the economic problems that we face in Northern Ireland today. The massive imbalance between the public and private sectors is the largest in any British region, and that has created a reliance on public funding that gives rise to some real challenges, particularly in the current economic climate. That imbalance, combined with below-average employment, means there is a strong and pressing need for increased private investment across the region.
I think that all parties in the House accept that urgent action is needed to help to remedy this problem, and I am pleased that the Government have assembled a working group to assess ways in which such investment can be achieved. Although I obviously do not represent a Northern Ireland constituency, I hope that I can play a small part in trying to ensure that that process bears some fruit. I have no doubt that the Treasury and the Northern Ireland Office, alongside their counterparts in the Northern Ireland Executive, are working very hard to find solutions to these problems. A growing, strong and resilient Northern Irish economy will benefit the whole UK.
As Northern Ireland looks for opportunities to boost its economy, this year presents County Londonderry with a distinctive position to begin to address some of the issues that I have mentioned, by utilising and building upon its historic connection with one of the centres of global business, finance and the arts. It is towards this purpose that the City of London, the Honourable the Irish Society, Derry city council and Coleraine borough council have been working together to mark the anniversary with a lasting economic and cultural impact.
Earlier this month, the City of London hosted a day of activities designed to boost County Derry’s visibility as a place to invest in among businesses and investors here in London. That day included an inward investment seminar, organised under the auspices of Derry city council and Coleraine borough council and their respective chambers of commerce, with valuable help from Invest Northern Ireland. The seminar was addressed by a series of business representatives, as well as by Arlene Foster, Northern Ireland’s Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and the mayors of both Derry city council and Coleraine borough council. It highlighted the potential of the growing technological and digital sectors in the region, as represented by the dedicated digital development projects of Digital Derry and Digital Causeway in Coleraine.
We only need to look at the evidence. The completion of the Project Kelvin communications link will provide County Londonderry with the fastest data link with north America in the whole of Europe. Derry city council is committed to becoming the first city in the UK with 100% fibre-optic broadband availability, and of course the university of Ulster is an industry-focused university with world-class technology research facilities and a dedicated school of creative arts. The digital sector can act as a key selling point upon which to build a modern vibrant economy for Londonderry and for Northern Ireland as a whole.
As the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) mentioned, the seminar at the Guildhall was followed by an absolute first for the city of Londonderry: a dinner at the Guildhall hosted by the City of London corporation and facilitated by Invest NI, on the theme of inward investment. At that dinner, Northern Ireland’s First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the lord mayor of the City of London and the governor of the Honourable the Irish Society all spoke. As someone who was there, I was glad that the speeches were relatively short and the toasts commensurately long, which is the right way round. It was an occasion that should not be underplayed, and it signalled the intention of all those involved in the Northern Ireland Executive, the City of London and—I hope—here in Westminster to move forward and foster a strong working partnership between County Londonderry, Northern Ireland as a whole and the City of London at the highest possible levels.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Although I represent a Belfast constituency, I am proud to say that I was born in Londonderry and lived there for the first 11 years of my life, so I want to see it do well and succeed. Does he agree that with the initiatives that he has referred to—the dinner and the special events, particularly this year—it is important that there is follow-up and follow-through on the part of Invest NI and others? I say that because, wearing my hat as a former Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland, the thing that I learned very strongly is that the follow-up to any action is absolutely key, as I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would agree.
Mark Field
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct in that regard. Achieving follow-up is an inevitable problem of government, and not just within Northern Ireland. For example, one can look at the important initiatives that the UK Government are making in India. Without following those initiatives through, there is a difficulty. It is not simply a matter of a whole lot of politicians putting on a good dinner and everything else, and thinking that the problem is solved. There needs to be concerted action. I very much hope that all members of all parties in Northern Ireland will play their part in that action, and I also hope that, within the City of London, we ensure that we take on this responsibility, too.
It seems to me that, in recent months, the Honourable the Irish Society has been directly engaging with Digital Derry, Derry city council, Coleraine borough council and other local stakeholders. I am pleased to say that that engagement has resulted in the signing of a unique memorandum of understanding between Digital Derry and the Tech City Investment Organisation in London. It is unique in the sense that it is the very first such agreement to be signed between Tech City and any other UK-based digital cluster. Therefore, it gives a great opportunity, as the right hon. Gentleman correctly suggests, to drive this process forward before other parts of the UK have their chance.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. Before I call the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), I must emphasise that we have a great deal to get through. We need short questions and short, sharp answers.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
May I continue the positive theme? The Secretary of State will be aware of the Belfast Telegraph’s excellent campaign, “We’re Backing Belfast”, which people have joined in supporting. Could the Secretary of State do any more to back the city at this time? Could she, for instance, arrange for meetings of the Northern Ireland Grand Committee to take place in Belfast, or arrange for the Cabinet to meet in Belfast in order to show support for it—and, perhaps, take the opportunity to announce economic measures such as a cut in corporation tax?
Mrs Villiers
Those are interesting ideas, and I will pass them on to those who make such decisions. As for corporation tax, the Prime Minister is considering the issue and will make an announcement in due course.
Mr Dodds
The Secretary of State will know of reports that leading members of the Provisional IRA who were formerly involved in its campaign of violence in Northern Ireland are now working with dissident groups there and providing them with expertise. What discussions has she had with the Chief Constable about the matter, and has she asked Sinn Fein what it knows about those people and their involvement in dissident violence?
Mrs Villiers
I regularly discuss with the Chief Constable the serious terrorist threat posed by dissident republicans, and I will continue to do so. The UK Government are vigilant in combating the threat from dissident republican terrorists. They are small in number but they have lethal intent, and unfortunately they also have capability.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
I certainly join my hon. Friend in that. I met PSNI officers from Derry/Londonderry just a week or so ago. They do an incredibly good job in very difficult circumstances with great bravery and dedication. They are determined to continue community policing close to the community. They will not compromise on that, but delivering it in the face of a continuing terrorist threat, and continuing attempts to target and attack officers, is extremely difficult. I am only too happy to join him in congratulating the police in Derry/Londonderry on the job they do.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will agree that there can be absolutely no justification at any time for attacks on police officers or anyone, or for threats to elected representatives. Those of us who have been the subject of threats, assassination attempts and bombs in our constituency offices and homes know that very well indeed—and we have no time for it whatever.
Further to a previous question, does the Secretary of State agree that naming a playground after an IRA gunman, as Newry and Mourne district council did the other day, and tearing down the national flag at civic buildings in Belfast, do nothing for community relations and are deeply destabilising?
Mrs Villiers
As I have said, the flying of flags outside city hall is a matter for Belfast city council to decide. It is important that it is allowed to make that decision free from any kind of intimidation, including riots outside. I entirely join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning any attempts made to intimidate elected representatives or politicians from whichever party.
As to the decisions local authorities make on naming playgrounds, I do not think it would be sensible or wise for me to interfere in that discussion. We need to move towards a genuinely shared future in Northern Ireland, where such sensitive decisions can be taken on the basis of reason and mutual respect for the points of view of different parts of the community.
Mr Dodds
I welcomed recently the Secretary of State’s statement that she was not neutral on the Union. People in Northern Ireland will be disappointed that she cannot bring herself to condemn a decision to name a playground after an IRA gunman. A clear message needs to be sent out by the Secretary of State and the House that such behaviour and gestures are deeply destabilising and very damaging to community relations, especially with respect to those parents who will now not take their children to a playground where they feel intimidated.
Mrs Villiers
I entirely respect the right hon. Gentleman’s point of view, but I also totally respect the devolution settlement, whereby a whole range of decisions are now made locally in Northern Ireland. It is not for the Secretary of State to seek to interfere in those decisions, and I have no intention of doing so.
Security in Northern Ireland
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I beg to move,
That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.
At the very outset of this debate I want once again to place on record, on behalf of my hon. Friends, and I am sure everybody in this House, our heartfelt and sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Prison Officer David Black—an innocent public servant going to work when he was brutally gunned down in cold blood by despicable criminals. His death will leave a massive void in the lives of his wife and children that will never be filled. We continue to think of Mrs Black and her children; our thoughts and prayers are with them. There is no doubt that Mrs Black’s call at the time of her husband’s murder for no retaliation was an example of immense courage and bravery, which, as I said in response to the Secretary of State’s statement at the time, stood in stark contrast to the darkness in the hearts of her husband’s killers. We will remember him and his colleagues, and all those who have died in the service of defending Northern Ireland. It is our duty to do all we can, as far as possible, to ensure that this kind of violence is thwarted and defeated.
There is no doubt about the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over recent years. As the Prime Minister has said, his announcement yesterday that Fermanagh would host the G8 summit next June would have previously been unthinkable—he said it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, but I think it would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. It is an immense opportunity for Northern Ireland to showcase its talents and the opportunities that we can provide to a worldwide audience. It is a momentous event. We warmly welcome the announcement and thank the Prime Minister for taking that step, which is a mark of the progress we have made. Another was the visit by Her Majesty to the Irish Republic last year and the diamond jubilee celebrations that took place in Northern Ireland, where for the first time in decades—I think maybe for the first time ever—Her Majesty was able to be greeted by thousands of ordinary people in Belfast and move about in an open-top vehicle without the massive security that would normally attend any kind of event involving Her Majesty. Again, that is an indication of the progress that has been made.
There is also the ongoing work that happens every day at Stormont and throughout Northern Ireland—parties working together, alongside the First and Deputy First Ministers, with Ministers representing a number of parties doing the day-to-day work of government, committed to working for and on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland. It is important to put on record the gains that have been made through devolution in Northern Ireland. Even today, my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has tabled early-day motion 752, which draws attention to other significant achievements for Belfast and Londonderry, which is now recognised as the fourth best city in the world to visit, according to the “Lonely Planet” guide, and will be the UK city of culture next year. These are immense strides forward in Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to everyone, right across the community and across all parties, who has played a part in bringing about that progress and, of course, to successive Governments as well.
But Mr Black’s murder showed us that, despite the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, there remains a crazed and fanatical republican element that is determined to try to drag our community backwards, into the darkest days of the past. Just last Monday a viable explosive device, which police said was designed to kill and maim, was discovered near my constituency off the Ballygomartin road. The device was found near a local school—Springhill primary school—and if it had gone off, the consequences, in terms of loss of life or serious injury to innocent civilians and schoolchildren, would have been very serious indeed. The device is thought to have fallen from the vehicle that belonged to its intended target, either a police officer or a soldier.
That incident, coming after the murder of David Black, shows that we are in a very serious situation indeed. Nor do we forget the murder of Constable Ronan Kerr in April last year, or the murder of Constable Stephen Carroll in March 2009, which came just two days after the killing of Sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at Massereene barracks. All those murders were carried out by so-called dissident republicans. There have also been many attacks and incidents that have been successfully thwarted by the excellent work of the police, through intelligence and co-operation with other elements of the security forces, including those in the Irish Republic. These murders all demonstrate the intent of the republican groups and the greater degree of planning and organisation that is now evident.
It is sometimes easy, especially from the perspective of those on this side of the Irish sea, to believe that everything in Northern Ireland is now sorted out.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would agree that it would be helpful if the Government were to sanction the publication of the inventories of the weapons that were decommissioned by loyalist terrorists—because that is what they were—and republican terrorists, supervised by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, so that the people of Northern Ireland and of the United Kingdom generally could compare what is claimed to have been decommissioned with what we reckon still to be available out there to enable dissident republicans to carry out yet another ghastly murder. I join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning the murder of the prison officer and in giving the greatest praise to his wonderful family, who have shown themselves to be beacons of dignity.
Mr Dodds
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. She raises an issue that has been raised a number of times by Members from Northern Ireland and elsewhere about the decommissioning process. We have said on previous occasions that it would be useful for the process that we are engaged in if the public were allowed to know exactly what was decommissioned by the various terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. I remember attending meetings with the decommissioning body, along with other hon. Friends, at which we sought clarification as to the circumstances in which that information would eventually be released. My understanding was that a judgment would be made at a suitable juncture when the entire decommissioning process was finished. It was certainly the intention of General de Chastelain, who was then the chairman of the decommissioning body, that the information should be released in due course. It would be helpful if it were released, for the reasons that the hon. Lady has given.
We were among those who wanted the greatest possible transparency for the decommissioning process. Indeed, we pressed for it to be made clear to the public, through video evidence and photographs, exactly what was being decommissioned. Famously, however, the republican leadership refused to abide by that at the time. Unfortunately, their refusal to accept that reasonable argument, which was designed to reassure people in Northern Ireland that what was happening was real and sincere, delayed the introduction of devolution by some considerable time. It raised doubts about the sincerity of the republican movement.
I was making the point that people can sometimes fall into the belief that everything has been sorted out and settled, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The events that I have been describing, including the tragic murder of David Black, have served to remind everyone that massive challenges remain. I know that the Ministers and shadow Ministers who are here today do not hold that belief, but it is important that we should debate the issues here today and consider them carefully. We need to take note of the progress that has been made, as well as making it clear to the people of Northern Ireland that there is no complacency and no sense of the challenges being underestimated.
The criminals want to take the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland back to the days of death, bloodshed and mayhem, but all of us in Northern Ireland and here, throughout the country, are determined that they will not succeed. After the death of David Black, the First Minister said:
“The Assembly and the Executive will not fall or collapse—far from it. We are united in condemnation and reinforced in our determination to create a stable, shared and peaceful society.”
He was absolutely right in his assessment. Those evil people will not succeed. Such terrorism did not succeed in the past, and it will not succeed now.
It is important to make the point that the violence that was carried out in the past, over 30 or 40 years, by the Provisional IRA was just as despicable, unnecessary and evil as the violence that is being carried out today by the so-called dissidents. I echo the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that the violence that was carried out by other groups, on the loyalist side, was terrorism. It is important for the sake of the victims that we do not get into a mindset of thinking that all the violence today is terrible while the violence that took place in the past was part of a conflict in which there could be grey areas and justifications. The violence that was carried out by the Provisional IRA, and others, for 35 years was just as evil as the violence that is being carried out today. It was never justified then, and it is not justified now.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. A few days ago, I attended the remembrance service to mark the 25th anniversary of the Enniskillen bomb, and nothing could have made the point that he is making more clearly than that. The unnecessary nature of that act still lives with us today. I echo his assertion that we must never forget those people either.
Mr Dodds
It was excellent that the hon. Gentleman and colleagues from the Northern Ireland Select Committee were able to be in Enniskillen to join the First Minister and other elected representatives, the families of the victims and members of the community in County Fermanagh on that solemn occasion. There are many reminders: we are coming up to the anniversary of the Ballykelly bombing as well. These events serve to remind us of the callous, evil and despicable nature of the violence that was carried out against the people of Northern Ireland and against the security forces.
It is worth remembering what happened in Enniskillen in 1987. One of those who was killed was a close personal friend of mine. Enniskillen is the town where I grew up and went to school, and I knew many of the people who were involved in that incident. The fact that now, 25 years on, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is able to announce the gathering of the world’s leaders for a G8 summit in that same county of Fermanagh is a fantastic illustration of the progress that has been made, and a fantastic vindication of the courage and steadfastness of the ordinary people who stood against the terrorists and were determined that they would not succeed in tearing down the fabric of their society.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I should like to pay tribute to the ongoing courage and steadfastness of the people of Northern Ireland, especially the officials there. We do not quite understand how the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen and Ladies who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland live with a certain threat. They have to go outside their house and check their car, for example, and they can never be certain what is going to happen. That tension is there in their lives all the time. I hope that when they come over here, that tension lessens, but the people of Northern Ireland never get rid of it. This House must always understand that the tension remains: we want it to go, but the only way of achieving that is by continuing developments towards peace.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman has enormous experience, having served in Northern Ireland. He and his colleagues who served in the armed forces have helped to contribute to bringing about the peaceful circumstances of today. He is right to remind us of the continuing issues that many people, including members of the security forces, have. I shall come on to deal with the issues affecting prison officers in more detail shortly. Members of those forces in our constituencies have come to our offices and have spoken to us about their worries about their personal security. The hon. Gentleman is right that members of the police service and people who are connected in any way with the security forces might be seen as some kind of target by these dissident terrorists. We all live daily with these kinds of threats or potential threats. People often say, “Well, there’s no specific intelligence out there to indicate that any particular individual is at risk”, yet we have discovered—we know from the recent tragic events—that that does not necessarily provide any reassurance at all. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments.
The victims, to whom we referred earlier, continue to live with the scars and wounds of the violence inflicted on them—and they will carry those wounds to their graves. It is important that we never forget the sacrifice of the innocent and the victims and their families and the loved ones left behind.
Coming on to the issue of personal security, prison officers and their families are living every day with the threat of murder and injury hanging over their heads. During the worst of the violence in the Province, more than two dozen prison officers lost their lives to terrorists. This was a deliberate strategy by republicans and loyalists to win concessions for their prisoners serving time for terrorist-related offences. Just as the murder of those officers was met with widespread and near-universal revulsion in the community in the past, so will this latest attempt to intimidate and suborn the forces of law and order.
On personal protection for prison officers, police officers and their families, we have some serious concerns about the present personal protection arrangements—the maintenance of protection equipment, for instance, in the homes and other places where members of the security forces have those arrangements in place. The arrangements must be robust enough to ensure the security of those who work in our prisons and in our police service. This is an area in which the Government have a duty to act. The Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State oversee the home protection scheme, which prison and police officers avail themselves of, and it is within their power to ensure that the fullest possible protection is afforded to those officers. I encourage them to do everything in their power in that regard.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that under the special purchase of evacuated dwellings scheme in Northern Ireland—I accept that this is mainly a devolved matter, but it touches on national security issues— we have prison officers, police officers and others who have had to leave their family home and move to alternative accommodation? They are being seriously disadvantaged because the value of their home has reduced significantly, particularly if they purchased it at the height of the property boom. They now face the prospect of losing a lot of money. Should we not be looking to find ways of compensating those people who, through no fault of their own—it was because of a security threat—now find themselves out of their home and facing a substantial loss?
Mr Dodds
My right hon. Friend raises an important issue, which I know has been raised in the context of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I know that the Minister for Social Development, whose Department administers the SPED scheme in Northern Ireland, has also been looking at this issue. As my right hon. Friend rightly pointed out, members of the security forces were told that they had to move. The criteria for qualifying under the SPED scheme have a quite high threshold, so people are granted support only in the most extreme circumstances where their life may be in danger. People often find themselves with negative equity—a problem not of their own creation.
A wider issue connected with the SPED scheme, about which I have been concerned for some time, is the fact that the money spent on the scheme comes out of the Northern Ireland housing budget. I think that is something that needs to be looked at. SPED is a security-related measure, so it needs to be looked at in that context rather than being seen as a housing issue. The specific matter raised by my right hon. Friend has, I think, been the subject of some discussion between the Minister of Justice, the Chief Constable and the Minister for Social Development. It is certainly an issue that we need to continue to raise on behalf of our constituents.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The SPED scheme is clearly intended to help those who are in particular trouble. As a result of the tragic murder of David Black, a number of prison officers from my constituency who were worried about the SPED scheme came to see me. I hope that in the response to this debate the Government will outline how the SPED system can be sped up—how it could work faster, to a time scale that people need. Secondly, can some consideration be given to people who have to move out of their houses quickly—the costs of buying a new house, getting a new mortgage, and so on? Many aspects of the SPED scheme need to be sorted out. Perhaps the Government will give us some response on that today.
Mr Dodds
My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, as it is a real practical outworking and consequence of the security situation in Northern Ireland. The issue has not arisen only in the past few weeks or only following the tragic murder of David Black; it has been an issue for some considerable time. People have been told about security issues by the police. As the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, Members of this House have been spoken to about personal security issues. For obvious reasons, we are not going to go into the detail, but these are serious issues. It is entirely wrong that people who qualify under the SPED scheme and find themselves having their house purchased in order to move should face terrible financial consequences, given that their lives are at risk and they find themselves in that position through the fault of terrorists and through no fault whatever of their own.
I know of a number of prison officers who have been told that they qualify for the Prison Service’s protection scheme and measures but who have been refused other protection offered by the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Executive. There is clearly an issue, and I seek the reassurance of the Secretary of State—I am sure she will be able to give it—that there is no question of resources or money forming any part of any decision to deny any police officer or prison officer the protection that they need to be given under any scheme to ensure their personal security. We would all agree that we should pay tribute to all those who do such sterling service, but it has to go beyond just paying tribute to them. When things happen, we should take cognisance of their concerns and as far as possible avert any kind of threat to them. That applies, of course, right across the board.
The issuing of licences to carry personal protection weapons has been raised with me and other colleagues, along with the refusal to renew those licences for people who have legitimate and well-founded concerns about their personal security. There has been a tendency for that to happen in recent years. A week or two ago, a man came to my office and told me that although he had been informed that he was under threat, his personal protection weapon licence was being withdrawn, which he found incomprehensible. He was told that because he was no longer serving, the threat had been reduced. However, although there is no intelligence relating to him suggesting the existence of a specific threat, he feels that he is under threat and in danger, and has given the example of his neighbour David Black, who was murdered.
One can understand how that man feels. He has gone through all the proper processes and is now forced to consider legal action, at his own expense, so that he can try to secure the minimal protection that would afford him peace of mind and enable him to sleep in his home at night. The Police Service of Northern Ireland needs to pay close attention to such issues. When appeals are considered by the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and other Ministers have a role to play. I know that the Secretary of State will also pay close attention to those issues, because they are of real concern to people and we have raised them in the past.
The people of Northern Ireland have suffered for too long as a consequence of the acts of terrorists down the years. Those of us who know our history are aware that the Provisional IRA, which wreaked so much havoc in our country for so many years, started out as a splinter group. It is easy nowadays to dismiss groups that are currently active as “splinter groups”, “small groups” or “micro-groups”, but it should be borne in mind that the provos originated as a breakaway movement from the official IRA. If we are not to condemn a further generation in Ulster, we must act swiftly and decisively, now, to bring those people to book.
A short time ago, the Home Secretary announced that the level of threat from dissident republicans here on the mainland of Great Britain had been reduced from “substantial” to “moderate”. In Northern Ireland, it remains “substantial”. At that time, in the House, I expressed the fear of many people that the announcement might have been premature and somewhat counter-productive. I said that given the recent experience of intelligence reports, or the lack of them, people needed to be reassured that there would be no reduction in security, and no complacency on the part of the security forces. I should be grateful if the Secretary of State would tell us whether the Government have sought or received any new assessment in the wake of the murder of David Black, and whether they are satisfied with the current threat level assessment overall.
Many people seemed surprised by the announcement that the various dissident groups had united to form an umbrella group which styled itself simply “the IRA”. That was the group that claimed responsibility for the murder of David Black. In a speech in September 2010 entitled “The Threat to National Security”, Jonathan Evans, the director general of the Security Service, noted that the largest dividing lines between the various republican dissident terrorists groups at that time were based on
“marginal distinctions or personal rivalries”.
It is now clear to many of us that those marginal distinctions and personal rivalries have, to some extent, ceased to exist, and that the groups are starting to coalesce, which is an extremely serious development. I understand that the “IRA” group which has claimed responsibility for the murder of David Black appears to consist of elements of the Real IRA and other factions based in the Lurgan area, and that is certainly very serious.
The Secretary of State must conduct a review to establish whether the proscriptions that already apply to the various terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland apply to the newly formed umbrella group. If they do not, the Government must move to apply them without delay. If it is proved that a person is involved in such activity, that person should face the full rigour of the law, and should be in no doubt that he or she will spend a very long time in prison.
Many inhabitants of Northern Ireland are greatly concerned when they hear of an incident, hear that certain people have been questioned and arrested—and have been continually questioned and arrested in connection with similar offences—and then hear that, unfortunately, they have either been released after a few days, or have not been convicted when brought to trial. Those living in the area in which such people operate, and in Northern Ireland generally, are well aware of the serious threat that is posed.
Of course we must be conscious of the rule of law and of due process. However, bearing in mind the efforts that are made to remove people from the United Kingdom, here in London or elsewhere, because they pose a threat to national security, many of my constituents ask me what real efforts are being made—proactively as opposed to reactively, following a terrible event—to get to grips with individuals who are known by the police, and indeed by everyone, to be involved in serious acts of terrorism and criminality and the organisation of terrorist acts. That is another issue that the Secretary of State should address.
The apparent closer organisation of dissident terror groups in Northern Ireland adds greatly to the challenges facing the PSNI and the security forces. All necessary resources must be made available to the Chief Constable to combat the terrorist threat. Early in 2011, the Government announced the provision of an additional £200 million for the PSNI budget to enable the police to counteract the dissident republican terrorist threat, and at the same time the Northern Ireland Executive provided an extra £45 million for security purposes. That money was received very gratefully by the police, and I assure the House that it has been critical to ensuring that more people have not been murdered at the hands of terrorists. However, the police will face a range of challenges in the months ahead. The Chief Constable has expressed concern about what the forthcoming comprehensive spending review will mean for the delivery of front-line policing services. I urge the Government to look favourably on any future request for additional resources, beyond the block grant allocation. The Chief Constable has made no call for extra money so far, but the Government should not be surprised if such a call is made in the future.
The circumstances faced by the police in Northern Ireland are way beyond the day-to-day challenges and problems faced by any regional police force in England, Scotland or Wales. The rate at which officers are leaving the force is higher than expected. The PSNI is losing, through retirement, a great deal of the experience and expertise in key fields such as crime investigation and counter-terrorism that are so crucial in counteracting terrorism. As a consequence of the faster than expected retirement rate, a new recruitment campaign will be launched next year, but it will obviously take time to plug the gaps caused by the loss of senior and experienced officers.
A judicial review of the use of managed services contracts by the PSNI is currently under way. If it succeeds, it will pose an enormous risk to the capacity of the police service. I believe that binding the hands of the police in such a way risks the incurring of massive costs, perhaps amounting to between £50 million and £60 million a year. The PSNI has been forced to employ agency staff, as a direct result—in my view—of the Patten report, which had the effect of driving years of experience and expertise out of the police service and creating a massive void in talent and skills within the organisation. The Auditor and Comptroller General has acknowledged that the police in Northern Ireland face a major challenge because of a loss of talent which is without precedent in any other public sector body.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
As my right hon. Friend knows, increasing numbers of PSNI officers are resigning from the service. That is a trend at present, rather than a spike, but more officers now join and spend just a few years in the service, rather than a lifetime. Instead of dedicating themselves to a career, many of them now get out after a short time. That makes it more difficult for the PSNI to serve the public properly.
Mr Dodds
I agree. That trend is clear in many of our local areas, even among senior officers. My constituency of Belfast North faces big policing challenges: as well as addressing the security threat, our PSNI officers have to police protests against parades and civil disturbances such as those we saw over the summer. Increasingly, we are seeing senior police officers staying in the area for a relatively short period of time. Just when they have started to get to know the area and its issues and various personalities on all sides they are moved on somewhere else, and a new officer comes in and that process starts all over again.
Having said that, I pay tribute to our police officers at both senior and rank-and-file level. They do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, but they need to be backed up with the assurance that whatever resources are needed to combat the threat of terrorism will be given to them. They must be assured that they will not have to scrimp and save, because the public in Northern Ireland are entitled to the ordinary benefits of policing as well. Northern Ireland faces serious issues to do with not only the troubles, but drugs, burglary and community policing. Our constituents must not suffer in those regards because resources are diverted to tackle terrorism.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
On the issue of crime in general, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as a consequence of our history of paramilitary activity, racketeering is a particular problem in Northern Ireland, as many people who have moved away from their paramilitary past have not moved away from its associated criminality?
Mr Dodds
The hon. Lady and I both represent Belfast constituencies, so we know very well the problems that remain. She is right to highlight the link between criminality and people who were formerly heavily engaged in paramilitary activity. That has been an enormous problem. Although many people formerly involved in paramilitary organisations are today making genuine efforts to move their communities forward, unfortunately others try to have a foot in both camps. We must ensure that the full rigour of the law comes down upon those who want to have it both ways, but we should help those who have genuinely changed.
There is no doubt that the overall security situation is very different now from what it was 25 years ago. However, although the dark days of the past have gone, it would be reckless to ignore the significant challenges we face. We must therefore debate these matters, as we are doing today. I look forward to hearing from the Secretary of State, and I commend the motion to the House.
David Simpson
Yes, and over the years we have been made aware of security leaks, and documents relating to members of the security forces have been found in the possession of certain people. People have been arrested because material has been found that could be of advantage to terrorist organisations. We must be vigilant and ensure consistent upgrading and assessment of all those issues, and I ask the Secretary of State to keep that in mind. I do not totally blame the Northern Ireland Office for the situation; the PSNI of course has responsibility for making an assessment. People should not just be dealt with as being under moderate threat, when all of a sudden their lives are taken. As has been said, David Black was driving down the motorway outside Lurgan in my constituency. He was on his way to help his country by serving in the Prison Service, and to earn a living for his wife and family. He did not return. We must address urgently the issue of how people’s protection is assessed.
On a more positive note, no one in this House, or anywhere in Northern Ireland, would deny that Northern Ireland has made remarkable progress in recent times. This has been a fantastic year for our Province, and the announcement yesterday that Ulster will host the G8 summit next year was the crowning glory in an incredible period of positive headlines. I thank the Secretary of State for attending my constituency yesterday—of course, she brought the Prime Minster with her—and it was good of her to be there to make an announcement about the G8. I am sure she will agree that the warm reception that both she and the Prime Minister received from the NACCO work force in the Craigavon area was tremendous. It was a positive day for my constituency, for Northern Ireland and for NACCO, which had its tweets all ready. They were not allowed to go because of security issues, but I assure the Secretary of State that the moment the Prime Minister left, wires were hot across the whole world to promote that company and the Craigavon area.
This year has been an excellent showcase for all that is good about Northern Ireland. No longer is our part of the United Kingdom referred to in the same breath as Palestine or other trouble spots in the world, and the Province is receiving global recognition for the right reasons. That success has been built on the sure foundation of support for the rule of law among all those who carry the responsibility of political leadership. People who once swore that they would never support the police or the rule of law, now do so.
Mr Dodds
My hon. Friend makes an important point about support for policing. Does he share my concern, and that of many others, about the recent developments following an arrest made under proper policing processes, when Sinn Fein organised a protest outside police headquarters and accused the PSNI of “political policing”? Does my hon. Friend believe, as I do, that that retrograde and dangerous step plays into the hands of dissidents?
David Simpson
I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention; he is absolutely correct. Such events send out the wrong message and seem to give support to dissident republicans which, as was mentioned earlier, encourages young people to believe that the war is not really over. In the words of one famous republican, “We haven’t gone away you know.” We must remember that.
Ms Ritchie
We were very concerned that the prisons issue does not feed the dissidents, as happened with the provisional movement in the past.
If I may continue: my party has stood against violence. Violence was wrong back in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s and it is wrong now—simple, clear. Others have come a longer way—whether those who have renounced the armed struggle and have followed the electoral road to places such as this, or those, including the Democratic Unionist party who moved this motion, who fanned the flames of division for many years, including sporadic flirtations with paramilitarism and lawlessness. We are now all in the same place. We stand united against terror and we will not be moved. It is vital that we continue, whatever else may divide us, that united stand against terror. There must be no slippage on anyone’s part.
I recognise the distance travelled by others and acknowledge that we are united against terror. That unity is genuine and, I believe, resilient. However, I must also caution the DUP and Sinn Fein on how we maintain our united stand and how we deepen our commitment. To Sinn Fein I say the following: they perhaps have travelled furthest of all and deserve credit for that, but they can and should do more. First, they should stop describing a murderous atrocity as achieving nothing, or pointless, or condemning the perpetrators as having no strategy. Such acts are not just wrong strategically and tactically—they are just plain wrong. They are morally wrong. It would help if they could just say so.
Secondly, republicans must do more to provide every shred of information they have, whether recent or from the recesses of their memories, to the police—not selectively, but completely. I believe that it was a major step backwards to see Sinn Fein leaders recently protesting outside police headquarters against the arrest of a republican in the investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney in Belfast. One either supports the police or not, and the dogs on the street know that republicans have yet to come clean on the brutal murder of Robert McCartney and the subsequent despicable persecution by republicans of his family.
It is not just Sinn Fein who need to do more to strengthen our united stand against terror. The party behind the motion can sometimes be uncomfortably close to some of the hard men on the other side. I understand that the DUP leader only recently complained to the Irish Government that funding going into worthwhile north/south infrastructure projects should instead go to community projects for loyalists, because loyalist paramilitaries were getting restless and were increasingly of a disposition to strike out. That is not good enough. Our united stand against terror must include all those who espouse terror and violence, not only the republican dissidents in this motion but the intimidatory thugs who continue to prey on working class communities on all sides. I would hope that the DUP pay heed to that.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I think there is evidence to that effect and he should discuss it directly with his colleagues who serve in the Northern Ireland Executive. [Interruption.] Yes, there is evidence to that effect.
We must not allow the tragic murder of Mr David Black to curtail our appetite for reform in the north. Our hard-working Justice Minister has plans to reform the Prison Service, just as we have reformed policing, and we must let him get on with it.
If there is one thing politicians can do to honour the memory of David Black and everyone else killed over the last several years—the police officers and other members of the security forces tragically murdered three or four years ago, and the other brave citizens cut down while providing essential public services—it is to strengthen and deepen our big achievement in devolution, which is our united stand against terror. That is what we should all subscribe to and what we in the SDLP—my party leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and I—have done continually.
David Black
Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
It is too early to say with any certainty why David Black was targeted, but as Chief Constable Matt Baggott made clear yesterday, this attack bears all the hallmarks of dissident republicanism. It is also too early to say whether there is any connection with the prison dispute that is taking place in Northern Ireland. I can say that whatever the dispute about prison conditions, nothing could possibly justify what has taken place. I also pay tribute to the hard work done by the prison service and by Justice Minister David Ford in seeking a resolution to that dispute.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for her statement and associate my right hon. and hon. Friends with the tributes that have been paid to David Black for his work over many years in protecting and defending the community in Northern Ireland. Our thoughts and prayers are with his dear wife Yvonne and his children Kyle and Kyra at this devastating time of personal loss for them. Mrs Black’s brave and courageous words calling for no retaliation stand in stark contrast to the blackness in the hearts of her husband’s murderers. Our thoughts are also with Mr Black’s colleagues in the prison service.
This was a despicable and callous act of terrorism, as the Secretary of State and others have said. It is all the more appalling because of its total and utter futility and pointlessness in the wider context of Northern Ireland. Across Northern Ireland, there is a united coming together in a common stand against these men of evil. As the Secretary of State has said, it is essential that people with information, especially in the Lurgan area, give that information to the police to help them to track down these murderers and bring them to justice. Will the Secretary of State confirm that she will give whatever resources are necessary to the Chief Constable in his battle against dissident terrorists and others in Northern Ireland who want to destabilise the Province and bring us back to the dark days of the past? Will she also give reassurance to the individual members of the security forces and the prison service in this time of terrible concern and worry that they will get all the protection that they need, and that whatever resources need to be given to the police to do that will be given? Finally, will the Secretary of State urgently review the threat level assessment across the United Kingdom in the light of this terrible event?
Mrs Villiers
I very much welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s reference to the comments made by Mrs Black through her local minister, in which she made it clear she did not want any form of retaliation—a courageous and entirely right statement to make. Such activity would be to play into the hands of the people who would drag Northern Ireland back to the past, and it is a message that should go out loud and clear from this House, as it has done from the people most tragically affected by the incident.
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government will continue to bear down hard on terrorism. It continues to be our highest priority to protect our citizens and we will continue to devote the appropriate resources to enable the PSNI and its partners to continue their excellent work in protecting people in Northern Ireland.
I know that the PSNI takes the security of prison officers exceptionally seriously. As I said in response to the shadow Secretary of State, it is vital that any appropriate lessons are learned in relation to the security of prison officers and I am sure that the police and the prison service will look carefully at that once the facts of this tragedy are established and at whether any changes need to be made.
The overall threat level regarding Northern Ireland-related terrorism in the United Kingdom remains under constant review, and the security services will assess whether any change is needed. I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that we remain vigilant and that if the threat level needs to be amended in Northern Ireland or in Great Britain, changes will be made.