Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I entirely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Both farming unions in Wales—the FUW and the NFU—are strongly in favour of our remaining in the reformed European Union. The extent of Welsh agricultural produce that is exported to the EU shows how important that market is; 90% of Welsh agricultural produce is exported to the EU and we should not risk losing that.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

On this point, the Minister is absolutely right. The best decision for Wales is to stay in the European Union, as our favourite pamphlet says. But can he tell us why, at a time when Sir Terry Matthews, Airbus, NFU Cymru and the FUW support our membership, Andrew R. T. Davies, the person the Conservative party wants to be First Minister of Wales, wants Wales out of the EU? It is a disgrace, is it not? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

I think we got the gist of it.

Macur Review of Historical Child Abuse

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) on securing today’s important debate. I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I do not refer to all their speeches in detail, but I have a number of questions for the Minister, whom I welcome to his new role. We are all anxious that he can speak for as long as possible on this important subject.

I commend the thoughtful speech of my parliamentary neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas), in whose constituency many of the care homes referred to are situated. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), my hon. Friends the Members for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) all took part in the debate.

I will come to the redactions, which are a cause of great concern, but when they are connected with legal proceedings, court proceedings and the like, I hope that new prosecutions will be secured. I also hope that if sentences are passed, the judiciary are not unduly lenient. These were most heinous of crimes, not only because they involved the sexual and emotional abuse of children, great evils though those are, but because they involved a group of children who the criminals who perpetuated these acts knew would never be believed. They were criminal and evil on both counts, and I hope the judiciary do not get soft when sentencing.

The abuse that was carried out in care homes in north Wales shames us all. As the Waterhouse inquiry found, it was widespread and persistent physical and sexual violence against young boys and girls. That it was perpetuated by those who should have been looking after those children, in homes where they should have felt safe, just adds to the sheer horror of what occurred. Those of us who lived in the areas around those homes well remember that it was common parlance to talk about the “naughty boys’ homes”. That was how they were regarded at the time.

Our thoughts must be with the survivors of that abuse, who were let down for a second time when they reached out for help and none was given. It was because of concerns raised by survivors about the scope of the Waterhouse inquiry that the Macur review was commissioned. Lady Justice Macur’s foreword to her review says that she hopes

“to achieve the finality that many participants in this process will desire.”

Indeed, that was what we all hoped for.

Since the review was published last week, however, a number of survivors have expressed their disappointment with its conclusions, and that has been echoed by many Members today. The NSPCC has expressed concern that the “lengthy, drawn out process” of the review

“risks deterring victims from coming forward.”

I sincerely hope that is not the case, and that survivors will have their voices heard clearly by the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse led by Justice Lowell Goddard.

Last week, the then Secretary of State for Wales said that the Goddard inquiry would open an office in Cardiff to engage with survivors in Wales. Can the Minister provide further information about when that will occur, and crucially, will he outline how the Goddard inquiry will engage with survivors and participants in other parts of Wales, including north Wales?

We know that physical and sexual abuse leaves a lasting impact on the lives of those affected and that, no matter how long ago that abuse occurred, survivors need support to rebuild their lives. The publicity surrounding the review will have triggered deeply painful memories for many survivors and may encourage others to seek help for the first time. Will the Minister set out exactly what support is available to those who come forward? Has he or his predecessor had conversations with agencies, including the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, to ensure that help is highlighted to those who need it?

The Children’s Commissioner for Wales has highlighted the need for clarity on why the redactions were made. Redacting information is a highly sensitive area, because it seems to conflict with the transparency that inquiries such as the Macur review should provide. It is vital to get the balance right. We know that it is necessary to redact some information, when criminal investigations are involved, but our view is that it should be done in as few cases as possible and must be justified to survivors. How many redactions were made in addition to those requested by Lady Justice Macur? What methodology was used when deciding which names were redacted?

I want to ask the Minister specifically about the process that led to the redactions, which is described in paragraphs 1.44 and 1.45 of the report and has been raised previously in the debate. Lady Justice Macur writes that she received unsolicited letters, first from the head of the Government Legal Service and then from the Secretary of State for Justice, about the extent to which her report would name those subject to unsubstantiated allegations. The Justice Secretary “strongly urged” Lady Justice Macur not to name those concerned and suggested that she

“underestimated the unfairness and prejudice to such individuals of including their names in the Report”.

To be clear, those names have been redacted in the published version of the report, but the Justice Secretary was arguing that they should not have been included in the first place. Lady Justice Macur decided not to follow that course of action. It is unfortunate that the Justice Secretary made that approach, given the understandable sensitivity that surrounds the question of redactions. Is the Minister satisfied that the Justice Secretary was right to make that approach, particularly in light of the fact that his was one of the commissioning Departments, and does he support Lady Justice Macur’s approach to those subject to unsubstantiated allegations?

My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham referred to the need for a longer debate on this issue. Can the Minister confirm that that might be granted in Government time?

The abuse described in the Waterhouse inquiry and again in the Macur review is truly staggering. I hope that the review is the start of a process whereby survivors will feel that their voices are being heard. As we move forward, it is imperative that anyone who has committed these gravest of crimes against the most vulnerable, no matter how long ago, is promptly brought to justice. The survivors of this abuse, and the people of Wales, have waited long enough.

Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Many Members will appreciate the difficulties that zip wires can present, but I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is a true champion of zip wires and the success and diversification that they bring not only to his own constituency, but to Arfon. We are keen to see the further support and diversification of that business in his area.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Following the excellent news about Aston Martin, I pay tribute to that company, to our dynamic pro-business Welsh Labour Government and to everyone who was involved in securing the deal. As we are discussing trends in employment, and with around 200,000 jobs in Wales dependent on our EU membership, what does the Minister think would happen to trends in employment if we were daft enough to leave the EU?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for recognising the efforts that the UK Government have made to attract investment, particularly with the major Aston Martin investment in my constituency. I think those comments should be underlined. Of course, the Government do not plan to leave the European Union; the Prime Minister has made the case, having negotiated a strong deal, and we are confident that the British people will support that when the referendum comes.

Draft Wales Bill

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson.

It is fair to say that we have heard a range of insightful contributions from hon. Members, and it is quite clear that the Bill, as drafted, is flawed. All the contributions that we heard are worthy of serious consideration. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd spoke of the Bill as a lawyers’ playground, which is an alarming thought. The right hon. Member for Clwyd West decried the Bill’s bolt-on approach and made some very serious points concerning the necessity test in schedule 2, describing it as a positive invitation to make more reference to the Supreme Court, which is very worrying. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham spoke in great detail about the whole dilemma of English votes for English laws, especially for Welsh Members of Parliament serving border constituencies. He also spoke of the need for a constitutional convention.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen spoke of the many anomalies in the draft Bill, the possible dilemma concerning horses and the apparent threat to the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd called for greater clarity about where powers are held. The last Liberal standing, the hon. Member for Ceredigion, spoke of the importance of clarity, of subsidiarity and, again, of the need for a constitutional convention. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire, in a wide-ranging speech, urged the Secretary of State to look at a different list of reservations, but not, we hope, at more reservations.

My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East, who serves on the Welsh Affairs Committee, spoke of many matters, including the necessity test. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon decried red tape—a view with which we would all agree—and spoke of many constitutional issues. The hon. Member for Gower requested fewer powers. My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney spoke of the fear of increased bureaucracy. The hon. Member for Cardiff North said that he was not excited about constitutional issues but volunteered to be on committees, which I think would make him an excellent representative, should we ever get to a constitutional convention. Finally, the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Monmouth said that the idea that we can somehow scrap the Welsh Assembly is “long gone”, which I think, by his own standards, makes him devo-philic.

To be serious, however, today’s debate has shown that the draft Bill is nowhere near commanding consensus. Before it was published there was cross-party agreement on the need to give greater powers to the Welsh Assembly. Indeed, before May’s elections, all the main parties in Wales were agreed that we should move to a reserved powers model of devolution. As we have heard, the model proposed in this Bill is unclear, unworkable and unacceptable in that it rolls back the Assembly’s powers. Many hon. Members have referred to the evidence of the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. Its report is pretty incisive and damning, saying that

“the draft Bill neither meets the Secretary of State’s aims of a stronger, clearer and fairer devolution settlement for Wales that will stand the test of time, nor the view expressed in his evidence to us that ‘the new reserved powers model provides the clarity the current model lacks.’”

The Bill seems to fail every test the Secretary of State has set. It will not make the settlement stronger because it takes power away from the Welsh Assembly.

As many witnesses said in their evidence to the Committee, this is a ridiculously long list of reservations that amounts to a power grab. It is pure Gilbert and Sullivan because they are on a list, and it would not be so bad if it were a little list, but it is ginormous: 34 pages of reservations and 267 separate powers. Therein lies the problem. The Secretary of State failed to stand up to Departments to ensure a rational basis to the reservations. As a consequence, if the Bill were passed, the Assembly would end up with fewer powers than it currently has. The Bill will not make the settlement clearer either, because, as Members have highlighted today, the so-called necessity tests introduce serious complexity that could be resolved only by the Supreme Court. It would be time-consuming; it would be costly to the taxpayer, and it would lead to the unacceptable situation whereby judges, as opposed to the democratically elected Assembly Members, are deciding whether Acts of the Assembly are necessary. The tests amount to a significant roll-back of the Assembly’s powers, and hardly anybody is prepared to defend them.

The Bill will not make the settlement fairer, for, as well as depriving the Assembly of many important powers that it already has, it introduces a wide-ranging English veto on Welsh laws. Ministers in Whitehall will be able to block legislation that they do not agree with, even if it relates only incidentally to a Minister of the Crown’s powers.

The Bill as drafted will not stand the test of time. Indeed, it has not even stood up to the scrutiny we have given it today. We all agree that we need a lasting settlement that provides certainty about the Assembly’s powers, but this is not it. The Bill is so fatally flawed that if it were passed in anything like its current form, there would undoubtedly be a need for another Bill in the very near future, which takes us back to “The Mikado”.

Today’s debate has not only highlighted the serious flaws in the Bill, but spelled out the changes that must be made for it have cross-party support—which is what we want—both here and in the Assembly. As my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State said this morning, we will not support the Bill unless it is radically amended. We cannot support it in its current form, because we believe in an Assembly with greater powers. Our party created the Welsh Office in the 1960s and established the Welsh Assembly and gave it greater powers through the 2006 Act, so we will not vote for a Bill that leaves the Assembly with fewer powers than it has at present. The people of Wales will not stand for that, and neither will we.

I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I hope you will forgive me, Mr Hanson, but in my old age my approach to politics is getting cynical. I think that what really concerns the Labour party is not the roll-back of powers, but the possible inclusion of fiscal powers—income tax sharing powers—in the Bill. Will the hon. Lady make a commitment that, if the Secretary of State moves on some of the rolled-back powers, the Labour party will support a Wales Bill that proposes more fiscal powers for Wales?

[Susan Elan Jones]

Let me be clear: the Labour party in Wales has always supported a fair funding settlement for Wales. We will not settle for rhetoric—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order.

[Susan Elan Jones]

We will not settle for rhetoric when what we want is fair funding for the people of Wales and proper funding for services. We will not vote for a Bill that leaves the Assembly with fewer powers than it has at present, because that is not acceptable.

Wrth orffen, hoffwn fynegi fy siom mai Saesneg yw’r unig iaith a ganiatawyd yn y Pwyllgor yma heddiw. In finishing, I would like to express my disappointment that English is still the only language permissible in this Committee. I have raised the issue with the Leader of the House and have written to the Chair of the Procedure Committee. It is not acceptable in this day and age, when Wales has two official languages, that we are allowed to use only the English language in our proceedings here.

Draft Wales Bill

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson.

It is fair to say that we have heard a range of insightful contributions from hon. Members, and it is quite clear that the Bill, as drafted, is flawed. All the contributions that we heard are worthy of serious consideration. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd spoke of the Bill as a lawyers’ playground, which is an alarming thought. The right hon. Member for Clwyd West decried the Bill’s bolt-on approach and made some very serious points concerning the necessity test in schedule 2, describing it as a positive invitation to make more reference to the Supreme Court, which is very worrying. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham spoke in great detail about the whole dilemma of English votes for English laws, especially for Welsh Members of Parliament serving border constituencies. He also spoke of the need for a constitutional convention.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen spoke of the many anomalies in the draft Bill, the possible dilemma concerning horses and the apparent threat to the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd called for greater clarity about where powers are held. The last Liberal standing, the hon. Member for Ceredigion, spoke of the importance of clarity, of subsidiarity and, again, of the need for a constitutional convention. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire, in a wide-ranging speech, urged the Secretary of State to look at a different list of reservations, but not, we hope, at more reservations.

My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East, who serves on the Welsh Affairs Committee, spoke of many matters, including the necessity test. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon decried red tape—a view with which we would all agree—and spoke of many constitutional issues. The hon. Member for Gower requested fewer powers. My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney spoke of the fear of increased bureaucracy. The hon. Member for Cardiff North said that he was not excited about constitutional issues but volunteered to be on committees, which I think would make him an excellent representative, should we ever get to a constitutional convention. Finally, the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Monmouth said that the idea that we can somehow scrap the Welsh Assembly is “long gone”, which I think, by his own standards, makes him devo-philic.

To be serious, however, today’s debate has shown that the draft Bill is nowhere near commanding consensus. Before it was published there was cross-party agreement on the need to give greater powers to the Welsh Assembly. Indeed, before May’s elections, all the main parties in Wales were agreed that we should move to a reserved powers model of devolution. As we have heard, the model proposed in this Bill is unclear, unworkable and unacceptable in that it rolls back the Assembly’s powers. Many hon. Members have referred to the evidence of the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. Its report is pretty incisive and damning, saying that

“the draft Bill neither meets the Secretary of State’s aims of a stronger, clearer and fairer devolution settlement for Wales that will stand the test of time, nor the view expressed in his evidence to us that ‘the new reserved powers model provides the clarity the current model lacks.’”

The Bill seems to fail every test the Secretary of State has set. It will not make the settlement stronger because it takes power away from the Welsh Assembly.

As many witnesses said in their evidence to the Committee, this is a ridiculously long list of reservations that amounts to a power grab. It is pure Gilbert and Sullivan because they are on a list, and it would not be so bad if it were a little list, but it is ginormous: 34 pages of reservations and 267 separate powers. Therein lies the problem. The Secretary of State failed to stand up to Departments to ensure a rational basis to the reservations. As a consequence, if the Bill were passed, the Assembly would end up with fewer powers than it currently has. The Bill will not make the settlement clearer either, because, as Members have highlighted today, the so-called necessity tests introduce serious complexity that could be resolved only by the Supreme Court. It would be time-consuming; it would be costly to the taxpayer, and it would lead to the unacceptable situation whereby judges, as opposed to the democratically elected Assembly Members, are deciding whether Acts of the Assembly are necessary. The tests amount to a significant roll-back of the Assembly’s powers, and hardly anybody is prepared to defend them.

The Bill will not make the settlement fairer, for, as well as depriving the Assembly of many important powers that it already has, it introduces a wide-ranging English veto on Welsh laws. Ministers in Whitehall will be able to block legislation that they do not agree with, even if it relates only incidentally to a Minister of the Crown’s powers.

The Bill as drafted will not stand the test of time. Indeed, it has not even stood up to the scrutiny we have given it today. We all agree that we need a lasting settlement that provides certainty about the Assembly’s powers, but this is not it. The Bill is so fatally flawed that if it were passed in anything like its current form, there would undoubtedly be a need for another Bill in the very near future, which takes us back to “The Mikado”.

Today’s debate has not only highlighted the serious flaws in the Bill, but spelled out the changes that must be made for it have cross-party support—which is what we want—both here and in the Assembly. As my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State said this morning, we will not support the Bill unless it is radically amended. We cannot support it in its current form, because we believe in an Assembly with greater powers. Our party created the Welsh Office in the 1960s and established the Welsh Assembly and gave it greater powers through the 2006 Act, so we will not vote for a Bill that leaves the Assembly with fewer powers than it has at present. The people of Wales will not stand for that, and neither will we.

I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I hope you will forgive me, Mr Hanson, but in my old age my approach to politics is getting cynical. I think that what really concerns the Labour party is not the roll-back of powers, but the possible inclusion of fiscal powers—income tax sharing powers—in the Bill. Will the hon. Lady make a commitment that, if the Secretary of State moves on some of the rolled-back powers, the Labour party will support a Wales Bill that proposes more fiscal powers for Wales?

[Susan Elan Jones]

Let me be clear: the Labour party in Wales has always supported a fair funding settlement for Wales. We will not settle for rhetoric—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order.

[Susan Elan Jones]

We will not settle for rhetoric when what we want is fair funding for the people of Wales and proper funding for services. We will not vote for a Bill that leaves the Assembly with fewer powers than it has at present, because that is not acceptable.

Wrth orffen, hoffwn fynegi fy siom mai Saesneg yw’r unig iaith a ganiatawyd yn y Pwyllgor yma heddiw. In finishing, I would like to express my disappointment that English is still the only language permissible in this Committee. I have raised the issue with the Leader of the House and have written to the Chair of the Procedure Committee. It is not acceptable in this day and age, when Wales has two official languages, that we are allowed to use only the English language in our proceedings here.

Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the basis of the question. During my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s discussion that led to the St David’s day agreement, there was not agreement on this issue. We are keen to progress in consensus so that we can take everyone forward. We need to remember that it was a Conservative Government who established S4C, which has been a great success since 1982. I hope that the hon. Lady will share in and recognise that success.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

What complete waffle from the Minister! The Tory party manifesto said only last spring that that party was committed in government to safeguarding

“the funding and editorial independence of S4C”,

yet now we are talking of a cut from the DCMS budget of a quarter of its funding. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is asking for my question. It is simply this: why will the Government not safeguard the funding, and why is that quarter of the DCMS funding budget still under consideration? It is a disgrace. How can we trust them on any other commitment they make?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady will have heard my answers to the previous questions. I find it a bit rich that Labour Members are calling for extra funding for a Welsh language channel when this morning the First Minister in the Assembly is seeking to defend his position of cutting the budget to support the Welsh language by 5.5%. That is simply a disgrace.

Spending Review and Autumn Statement: Wales

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. S4C is crucial for the vitality of the language, and it creates social, cultural and economic opportunities. It would be wholly improper for me to provide a running commentary on the charter renewal negotiations. They are ongoing, but I am pleased to hear that Tony Hall said that broadcasting in the nations needs to be protected by the BBC, and I would hope that that would extend to S4C.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The Minister seems to have forgotten a line from his party’s general election manifesto, which said that if elected, his party would safeguard the funding and editorial independence of S4C. How does he square that commitment with what happened in the comprehensive spending review?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady needs to recognise that the amount of funding from DCMS is relatively small. The proposal to cut from £7.6 million to £5 million over an extended period of time provides an opportunity for S4C to make its contribution to the savings. The spending review proposed £400,000 of funding savings from S4C in the first year, but she needs to recognise that negotiations with the BBC are ongoing, and to recognise the statements coming from Tony Hall. We welcome those statements and hope that the BBC will be able to deliver on them.

The Welsh Government’s total funding is underpinned by our commitment to introducing a funding floor, as the hon. Member for Neath said. I would have hoped that she would have welcomed the funding floor, because it was only two weeks before the autumn statement that there was a debate in this Chamber about the need for a funding floor. There was doubt that it would be delivered, but a funding floor of 115% will be introduced. That is well within the Holtham commission’s fair funding range, and I would have hoped that that would be welcomed by the hon. Lady.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is demonstrating his misunderstanding, because he compares capital projects with revenue projects. The rate of income tax would affect revenue projects only. These are the sorts of policies that could be presented in a manifesto. People can choose whether they want to see money spent on pet projects of the Welsh Government or a cut in income tax. People will make their choices according to their objectives, but it is up to each political party to make its case. The whole point about the autumn statement is that it empowers the Welsh Government to make the case on whether it should be spending more or less.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does the Minister think that Jobs Growth Wales is a pet project of the Welsh Government?

[Alun Cairns]

It is up to people to make judgments on what are pet projects. The point I am making is that we are in a serious debate. The opportunity to cut income tax rates is an opportunity to attract more investors and entrepreneurs to Wales.

In the 20 seconds that remain of the debate, I want to scotch any concern about the Barnett consequentials for HS2 funding in the autumn statement. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has misunderstood the tables presented in the statement. We will happily go through it and write to him with the detail.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The truth is that Wales’s future prosperity depends on whether we can transform the economy, improve productivity, invest in transport infrastructure and improve our skills and education. That is where Wales’s future prosperity and success lie, and the question of whether or not we remain in the European Union is therefore a secondary one.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is just a little bit shy today. Why cannot he just recognise that 191,000 Welsh jobs are totally dependent on EU trade and that Wales is a net beneficiary of EU aid? Cannot he just say—we will protect him from the Tory “Little Britain” sketch on the Benches behind him—that Wales is better off in?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am not often described as shy; I am interested that I have come across in that way to the hon. Lady this morning. I do not recognise the figure that she cites. The important point is that the single market creates a really strategic opportunity for Welsh business. That is what we need to defend and extend.

Barnett Floor (Wales)

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

The position has already moved since the hon. Gentleman’s first contribution to this debate.

To make some progress on the specific points raised, a lot of questions were asked about the timing. I remind hon. Members that earlier this year in the St David’s day Command Paper we committed, for the very first time, to introducing a floor to the level of relative funding provided to the Welsh Government, alongside the spending review. This Conservative Government made that historic commitment and we absolutely stand by it. On the question of urgency, we stand by what we said before the election and will deliver that.

The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has admitted that when the Labour party was last in power and he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury he knew that the Barnett formula

“wasn’t fair to Wales and there would need to be changes”,

yet Labour did absolutely nothing about it. I will not accept any crocodile tears from Opposition Members. Although the right hon. Member for Leigh has since made that explicit comment, no action was taken in that whole period other than a diverging funding settlement for Wales relative to the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It strikes me when listening to the Minister that I am not sure whether we are extravagant spenders or penny-pinching individuals. Whichever it is, the money went up from £7 billion to £16 billion, and that does not sound like either to me. Will the Minister answer one point he has not yet answered: does he not agree with Holtham that Wales is underfunded to the tune of £300 million a year?

[Alun Cairns]

The figures of £7 billion to £16 billion have been repeated time and again, but Holtham identified that during that period Wales’s relative position was worse. As I have said, the changes made over the past five years have put current spending in Wales within the Holtham range, as acknowledged by the Welsh Government.

Capel Celyn Reservoir (50th Anniversary)

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes. We Welsh people—I do not dare say we north Walians—remember the words, “Cofiwch Dryweryn” or “Remember Tryweryn”, and the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) has spoken powerfully about that experience today. It was something that we never thought would happen. She described how the small Welsh community, with its school, post office, chapel, cemetery and farms, was suddenly underwater.

As we listened to the hon. Lady retell that history—of the Liverpool Corporation, the private Bill in Parliament and the small community of Capel Celyn—it almost felt as if we were hearing a David and Goliath story, only, on this occasion, Goliath won. I am not sure that he did, however. A year after that Bill, in early 1957, the Council for Wales recommended the creation of the then Welsh Office and the Secretary of State for Wales, and that changed the consciousness of so many people in different ways.

Those who have read Lord Elystan-Morgan’s autobiography will know the amazing story of Jim Griffiths, the former deputy leader of the Labour party, in conversation with Nye Bevan. Nye Bevan, of course, belonged to a different tradition from me and my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). We have two traditions in the Labour party on devolution for Wales, and we can safely say that my hon. Friend and I are the ones who have the right views. On this issue, Nye Bevan had the wrong ones. Jim Griffiths spoke to Nye Bevan, and Nye Bevan said, “Jim, do you really believe that we should have a Secretary of State for Wales and a Welsh Office?” Jim Griffiths said, “Yes, Nye, with all my heart I do.” Nye Bevan said, “Then you shall have it.”

What is significant about Capel Celyn is that not one single Welsh Member of Parliament voted for the private Bill. One abstained and all the others voted against. Something happened that flagrantly disregarded the Welsh people. Of course, it was not the first time that a Welsh community had been displaced to provide water in this sort of way for English cities. It had happened previously in the Vyrnwy and Elan valleys, which were flooded in the late 19th century to create reservoirs serving Liverpool and Birmingham.

Something about Capel Celyn led to greater national consciousness, and that is why Goliath did not win. People considered things differently, and when the Wales Bill is debated, we will be considering things differently. I am delighted that there will be a model of reserve powers. That is right and proper, and it is where our constitutional settlement has taken us.

Some of the issues related to Capel Celyn are much more complex. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd mentioned the fact that, as well as being a north Walian, she is also a south Londoner. She and I—I think uniquely among Welsh MPs—can claim to be that. I lived in Elephant and Castle for several years. There are not too many Members of Parliament who are south Londoners and north Walians, and that helps us realise that, when we talk about the borders of Wales, things are that bit more porous. What was ironic about Capel Celyn was the number of Welsh people who lived in Liverpool. There has always been open migration across our borders.

When we speak about national powers, all of which are immensely important, we realise that, sometimes, even within those structures, there is a fear of big powers taking over little powers. That can be at county council level. I think sometimes of Denbighshire, and the closure of small schools. The hon. Lady will be aware of that with Gwynedd Council and the schools there, which close perhaps a little more often than she might like. Denbighshire is part of north Wales, and when I speak to anyone in Llandrillo in my constituency, they sometimes see the county council as a problem. These are not easy issues.

Today we remember the people of Capel Celyn and Tryweryn. Without quite going back to Cantre’r Gwaelod, we must remember those communities and say that if any good at all has come out of this issue, it is that greater debate on national consciousness. Some of us, including me, could never support independence for Wales—I am not being entirely serious, but if we were talking about independence for north Wales, I might be a little more sympathetic to the idea—but as we have this debate, let us remember what happened in Capel Celyn as we develop our great nation in whichever way we wish. Let us not forget. I congratulate the hon. Lady on an outstanding speech.