Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Viscount Thurso and Baroness Altmann

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Tuesday 28th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Thurso (LD)]

My Lords, I rise for the last time in your Lordships’ House to congratulate the Minister, to thank her for all the hard work that she has done and to say how much I have appreciated my interaction with her. We have arrived at a perfect compromise in that none of us is entirely satisfied—which has always been the definition of a great compromise. We are in a place where the major concerns that many of us had on the mandate part of this Bill have been, if not removed, modified to the point at which they are liveable with. As the Minister said, it is this House at its best.

When I came into this House in 1995, if your Lordships had said to me, “The last time that you speak will be on the fourth ping-pong of a Pension Schemes Bill”, I would have said, “On your bike—not a chance”. However, I have enjoyed the work of being part of this Bill, and I think that both the Government and the Opposition have done their job well. I hope that when this goes on to the statute book, it will deliver for pensioners.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso. I pay tribute to him. He will be much missed by this House. His work on this Bill and in many other areas has been most welcome and helpful and his demeanour and the manner in which he has co-operated with us and with Ministers has been appreciated by everybody. I declare my interests as far as pensions are concerned. I am an adviser to a master trust and a non-executive director of a pensions administration company.

I will not delay the House too long, but I want to welcome the changes that have been made. I thank the Minister for her patience, her engagement and for listening and working with this House. We have now achieved much safer and better outcomes for members of pension schemes. These will allow trustees and managers to look after the best interests of members so that they do not feel forced to invest in ways that they might not otherwise have chosen to or which are against their best judgment.

There will not be an exclusion of listed investment companies. Again, I thank the Minister and the Government for listening to the serious concerns that were expressed by this House. I also welcome the changes that we have made along the way to the Bill. It is a much better Bill. I thank all colleagues across the House who have co-operated so well.

I must pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, for all the work that she has put in, and the Front Bench on this side as well, who have worked so hard to make this Bill a better Bill. I wish this Bill well. Hopefully, a lot of pension scheme members will enjoy better retirements in the future—I certainly hope so—as a result of what we are doing now.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Viscount Thurso and Baroness Altmann

Report stage
Monday 23rd March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 155, and I am grateful for the support of the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso. This amendment and the noble Viscount’s own Amendment 162, to which I have added my name, deal with the same point, which is something we talked about in Committee. They aim to secure provisions that were made in the Pensions Act 2004 which would allow schemes to be extracted from the Pension Protection Fund if there were a new opportunity; for example, for the pension scheme members to be treated to better pensions than those available in the Pension Protection Fund itself.

That provision, in Section 169(2)(d) of the Act, has never been commenced. That provision means that if an employer had two or three workers in a pension scheme, had a company which fell on hard times and became insolvent—at which point the members’ pensions went into the PPF—then had a particularly fortunate experience and found himself or herself in a position where they could try to remedy the shortfalls of the members’ pensions and wanted to be able to take the scheme back out of the PPF, then that would be possible. Currently, that would be against the law because the provision has not been commenced, even though it is in the Pension Act 2004.

These amendments seek to ensure that this is at least a possibility, especially now that employers may start to be more attracted to running pension schemes, given the different financial situation that surrounds pension schemes now that we no longer have quantitative easing, with schemes finding themselves more often in surplus. Therefore, I hope that the Minister might accept that this is a possibility. These amendments would not commit the Government—or anyone—to spending any money; they would merely bring into force a provision that was already provided for in 2004.

[Viscount Thurso (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 155 from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and will speak briefly to my Amendment 162, which seeks to achieve exactly the same effect. Since the noble Baroness has explained it so well, I do not have to repeat the arguments in favour of it. Amendment 162 was tabled shortly after I tabled Amendment 161, when I was looking for remedies for the problem that was being created around Amendment 161. As most of the arguments for that should properly be deployed when we get to Amendment 161, I will not make them at this point, which I hope the Minister will understand to be appropriate. However, I give notice that if we get to that point and we have not had anything helpful—you can always hope—then I will seek the opinion of the House on Amendment 162.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Viscount Thurso and Baroness Altmann

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

Perhaps I could assist the Committee. These amendments are asking for a publicly available report that clarifies and sets out all this information on a basis that council tax payers, for example, whose money is being used, can see with clarity: it is provided to them. With all due respect, they will not read the actuarial report, but having a properly set-out review that explains all this clearly, in language that people can understand, would have huge value.

[Viscount Thurso (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend on the Front Bench will give our view on the generality of these amendments. I have one small question that I want to put to the noble Viscount in respect of Amendment 16.

Broadly, I am in favour of clarity of investment function, and I suggest that any well-run fund has a very clear statement of its objectives that everybody can see. My question is simply about the use of the phrase “risk elimination” in subsection 3(a) of the proposed new clause. This goes to the heart of one of the problems of discussing surpluses and everything else: it seems to me that anybody making investments who is seeking to eliminate risk is in the wrong industry. They really ought to be doing something else, because you cannot have any reward without risk. I humbly suggest that it should refer to “risk appetite”. It is perfectly correct for any set of investing trustees or any fund to have clarity as to the risk appetite that they wish to have to achieve the investment objectives that their pension fund has; I just question the use of the word “elimination”.