Energy Bill [ Lords ] (Fourteenth sitting)

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Alan Brown

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I want to make quite a few comments on the clauses, but I hope we are more than halfway through the debate, given how long we spent on it on Tuesday. You were not here then, Mr Gray, but the Labour Front Benchers shared their contributions, which is a luxury that I do not have as the only SNP Front Bencher. I warn the Committee to buckle up for what is now going to be an Alan monologue for a wee while, so be prepared!

First, I want to make some comments about Tuesday’s discussion of the merits of clause 270, which was inserted by the Lords. I am sorry that the hon. Member for South Ribble is not in her place; I would rather be saying this with her directly opposite—

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown]

Shortly; I will make the point first. On Labour and the SNP being against opening coal mines, the hon. Member for South Ribble said:

“This is one of the most jaw-dropping moments I have ever had in my parliamentary career. The Scottish National party and the Labour party are arguing against domestic jobs, our proud coalmining heritage and energy security for this country. Is that not flabbergasting?”––[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 20 June 2023; c. 356.]

That was a week in which the former Prime Minister resigned and was proven by the Privileges Committee—with a Tory majority—to be a serial liar, and in which Parliament voted to effectively sanction what would have been a 90-day suspension. I find that a bit more jaw-dropping than ourselves and Labour opposing new coal mines.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

To help the hon. Gentleman, I merely say that my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble is unfortunately detained in the Chamber because a huge bomb factory was found in her constituency this morning and she needs to raise that on the Floor of the House. I know that my hon. Friend will be here later.

[Alan Brown]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that clarification. I was not casting any aspersions about the hon. Member not being here; I was just saying that it was unfortunate when I am addressing her comments. I note how important that issue in her constituency is and hope it gets resolved.

On coalmining heritage—I do not think I need to point this out, but I will anyway, as an obvious history lesson—the coalmines were shut down as a result of Maggie Thatcher putting her anti-union ideology ahead of the coalmining industry. At that time she was more than happy to import coal from the likes of Poland and bring it in from overseas while shutting the coalmines here. That is a fact.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown]

Excitement is sometimes quite tempting, Mr Gray, but I will try my best. I am trying to draw together the history of the coalmines and the issue of whether we should go forward with more. On the intervention, it is not usually for me to agree with Barney Crockett, but Labour’s energy policy is certainly all over the place.

We are debating opening new coalmines, but the reality is that there are now not too many people, even of working age, who have actually worked in coalmines—that is how long ago they were shut down—so there is not even a skillset out there that would be able to operate much of the mines. I realise that technology has moved on—the proposed mine at Whitehaven will use modern technology—but skilled labour will still be hard to get and the Government’s immigration policies will prohibit skilled miners coming from elsewhere.

Labour and the SNP are against coalmines, but we need to look at the wider context and consider the comments of the right hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), who was commissioned by the Tory Government to undertake a net zero review. His report was supported and commended by Members on both sides of the House, who agreed with its recommendations. Before the decision on the Whitehaven mine, he said:

“Opening a new coal mine in the UK would send the wrong signal across the world. We are international leaders when it comes to tackling climate change. To act differently, having pledged the ending of coal, would be to surrender that leadership.”

After the decision to grant planning permission for the coalmine, the right hon. Gentleman stated that if the recommendations in his report, such as on net zero tests, were part of the process, the coalmine would have been refused. He added:

“I obviously personally believe the coal mine decision is a mistake.”

A senior Tory parliamentarian is saying the same things as us. He is against the opening of new coalmines, and by default therefore supports clause 270. On international leadership, he effectively said that by opening new coalmines, the UK can no longer claim to be world leading on climate change.

I understand the importance of the jobs that go along with coalmines. My constituency needs new jobs, but we cannot use the phrase “local jobs” to justify bad decisions. Prioritising jobs above everything else leads to a race to the bottom. We could create jobs by chopping down all the trees in the UK and burning them, but that is a ludicrous proposition, so we cannot use new jobs as a justification.

If we want to talk about jaw-dropping comments, I was surprised to find that the hon. Member for South Ribble was a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the COP26 President, the right hon. Member for Reading West (Sir Alok Sharma), so it is worth while to look at what he said about the proposals for opening new coalmines. He said:

“Over the past three years the UK has sought to persuade other nations to consign coal to history, because we are fighting to limit global warming to 1.5C and coal is the most polluting energy source…A decision to open a new coalmine would send completely the wrong message and be an own goal. This proposed new mine will have no impact on reducing energy bills or ensuring our energy security.”

Our comments were deemed jaw-dropping, but I assume that those of the COP26 President, who led the worldwide negotiations on emissions reduction, and those of the chair of the net zero review should not be regarded as jaw-dropping and should be respected.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

The hon. Gentleman said the proposals will not improve our energy security, but will he comment on what will happen to the steel industry if we are not able to produce the electricity needed to move to arc furnaces in the timeframe outlined by the clause? As I said at the end of the previous sitting, we keep identifying areas that will be powered by electricity, but we do not seem to have the ability to catch up with that. On energy security, will he comment on what will happen if we are unable to generate the electricity that the steel industry needs?

[Alan Brown]

I am happy to comment on energy security, but I remind the right hon. Gentleman that those were not my words but the words of the former COP26 President. He said that the proposed new mine will not deliver energy security. I am sure that, like me, the right hon. Gentleman respects the President of COP26 and believes that he did a good job.

This argument about supplying coke and coal to the steel industry has already been debunked: 85% of the coal from the new coalmine will go abroad, so it will not provide energy security by supporting the steel industry in the UK. That is a bogus argument.

[Alan Brown]

I want to debunk the hon. Gentleman’s debunking of the debunking. Let me come to the comments of the chair of the Climate Change Committee, Lord Deben, who the last time I checked is a Tory and was a Tory Minister.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

On that very point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alan Brown]

I am trying to answer the other point first.

[Alan Brown]

This is an important point. The chair of the Climate Change Committee condemned the opening of the new coalmine and said that opening it would mean the UK emitting 400,000 tonnes of additional carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. He also pointed out that 85% of the coal will be exported because it is high in sulphur and therefore not suitable for the UK steel industry. A former chief executive of British Steel, Ron Deelen, said:

“This is a completely unnecessary step for the British steel industry”.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

The hon. Gentleman is being exceptionally generous with his time. He said that exporting 85% of the coal does not add to our energy security, but does he accept that if we have energy at home and do not have to import it, that is energy security by definition?

[Alan Brown]

I agree, which is why I want to see more renewables deployed. That is why I keep arguing for pumped-storage hydro, but the Government have fought that. It would give us storage and additional security and resilience. Obviously, I want the UK to become a net exporter of energy overall—that is the ideal place to get to—but renewables and storage are the answer.

Plenty of other senior Tory voices are saying that we should not open coalmines, so I do not see why the SNP and Labour should not be on the side of science and of such otherwise-respected senior Tory parliamentarians. It is also ludicrous that we are still effectively banning onshore wind in England but the Government will not accept a ban on opening up new coalmines and burning fossil fuels. When we talk about trying to lead the world on energy change, that is rank hypocrisy.

I realise the reality is that the transition will use some carbon fossil fuels. We need to understand that. That is why I believe in a just transition and have tabled a new clause that asks the UK Government to follow the lead of the Scottish Government by setting up a just transition commission. I have also tabled a new clause about net zero impact assessments. That in itself should underline Government policy and make the decision-making process transparent, so that we fully understand the impacts of policy decisions on net zero.

The Minister said it was important we ensure that industries that rely on coal can rely on domestic sources of coal, but that is a vacuous comment, because any coal mined in the UK goes on the open market and to whoever pays the most money for it. Having a new UK coalmine does not mean that that coalmine will automatically supply UK-based steel makers.

Energy Bill [ Lords ] (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Alan Brown

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Further to my point of order this morning about declarations of interest, I have spoken to the Commons Registrar who has informed that because I personally make no financial gain from property that my wife owns it does not have to be in the register; however, I have to declare an interest at this moment that my family has a substantial property portfolio. The comments that I am about to make, however, are based on the concerns of landlords, estate agents and letting agents in my constituency.

One of the problems is if we start to over-legislate at this time. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test pointed out that, importantly, the Government are still consulting on the report. We are in danger of focusing purely on the one area of energy efficiency in the private rented sector, and in effect making landlords do things that the owner of a private property does not have to do, with the cost being passed on to tenants. Subsection (3)(a) of new clause 41 would

“enable Local Authorities to give notice to landlords that they wish to inspect a property, requesting permissions from landlords and any tenants in situ at the time to carry out an inspection at an agreed time”.

In other words, that would enable constant inspections and attempts to move forward with insulation.

We have said throughout that we have to take the public with us on this agenda. In some areas, we move too quickly to legislate on something that the Government are consulting on and that has not been properly thought through. Several times, my hon. Friends have intervened to ask where the money is coming from to do such works. At the moment, as I look at the Bill and the £10,000 cap, it is coming from the tenant. At a time when there is a political argument on both sides of the House about how people can get on the housing ladder, increasing their rents even further because the landlord has to do something that people in the private sector do not have to do will not help that cause.

There is no doubt that energy efficiency will reduce the amount of fuel that has to be used to heat a home. That is a scientific fact. We hear that it could save £1,000 a year, but that assumes that everything stays level and that we do not have to put another levy on electricity bills. I remind colleagues that when nuclear power came along, it was said that it would be so cheap to produce that we would not be able to meter it. That turned out to be far from the truth.

[Alan Brown]

Hear, hear.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

There you go, praise from the other side.

One of the points made by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test was about getting in and retrofitting now, and not having to do it again in 2050. New clause 42(1) states:

“Within 12 months of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must conduct a review of the “Improving Energy Performance Certificates: action plan” that sets out how new technologies can improve the energy usage and efficiency of premises.”

I have no doubt of the intent with which that was written, but it can be interpreted very differently. It could mean that as time goes forward, the regulations will change and those with band C EPCs might now be told to come to a level that was not required at this stage of retrofitting.

Cumberlege Report

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Alan Brown

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Westminster Hall

[Alec Shelbrooke]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. She summarises the entirety of what we are trying to achieve. When I put in the application for the debate, I found no difficulty at all in getting sponsors who were one third Conservative, one third Labour and one third SNP. This is not about the colour of the Government. It is about the NHS, which will be managed through all colours of Government, and has been throughout its life. It is the responsibility of this place, and part of who we are, to do the right thing by people.

I ask the Minister to look at the thalidomide grant scheme and translate it across to those who, as a direct result of the issues raised, will not be able to fulfil their earning potential and will have to deal with physical restrictions and pain for the rest of their lives.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

As well as compensation, which I think is what the right hon. Gentleman was talking about with “redress”, the Scottish Government, at least, are now progressing with a Bill to set money aside for people to get mesh removed through private surgery, fully funded by the Scottish Government. Does he think that that should also be considered by the UK Government?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Again, I am most grateful for that intervention, because people are having to turn to private care to get that surgery done—often by the same surgeons. There has always been a conversation about the NHS commissioning private medicine to help it, particularly when it comes to clearing the backlogs caused by the pandemic. That that is important. I will come on to that question in my comments about where we are going.

Recommendation 5 says:

“Networks of specialist centres should be set up to provide comprehensive treatment, care and advice for those affected by implanted mesh; and separately for those adversely affected by medications taken during pregnancy.”

The Government accept the first part of recommendation 5, on specialist centres for those adversely affected by mesh. I regret to tell my hon. Friend the Minister that it is not working. I have a document that I will read from Kath Sansom of Sling the Mesh. She sent me this information. These are women’s voices, in just January 2022. An 83-year-old says:

“I am disappointed. I was expecting help but just offered pain relief and physio. And I now have red inflamed abdominal inflammation. I wanted to know if all these problems were the mesh—the answer was that they don’t know.”

A 64-year-old says:

“Not sure about anyone else, my experience hasn’t been particularly good. For me the wait goes on and on. Offered pain management, didn’t get anything only offered physio. In 14 years I have had enough physio to last a lifetime. Latest offer yet another camera in the bladder, that makes 4 now. First removal 2019, been waiting ever since for stage 2. I feel the longer it goes on, they hope I will give up having surgery at 64 years old.”

Others say:

“After a very long wait to see a specialist in the mesh centre, having scans etc. was told no real problems”—

and—

“Mesh centres are a piece of paper over a cavernous crack!”

Another person says:

“I feel mesh centres are giving us false hope—and then the realisation that it’s all been pointless. They actually admitted at Nottingham that they would watch Leicester removing my mesh so that they could learn how to remove a TOT mesh! They looked disappointed when I said there was no way I was thinking of having it removed. I feel like I would have been an experiment. I’m scared.”

Another says:

“I waited 12 months from referral by GP for my first appointment, then it has taken 3 years of various tests and appointments to get on the surgery removal waiting list. I have been on that list for 15 months so far. In that time, I lost my job that I’d had for over 16 years due to sickness record, I’ve been on the waiting list for pain management for over 12 months, and I am gradually able to do less and less due to the constant pain.”

Someone else says:

“Nottingham mesh centre same pro mesh surgeons that put in mesh in charge of centre referring patients to nearby Leicester Hospital for operation—what’s all that about!! It’s OK having Specialist Mesh Centres, but these doctors need to be trained by surgeons that are doing good jobs.

I’ve been hurt once by these surgeons that put mesh in, I’m not letting anyone near me unless they have done lots of successful removals. the sad thing is, because only 4 or 5 great surgeons do removals, you have to pay private, because their waiting lists are so long.”

Others say:

“Kath, can you highlight the LONG waiting times please and referral to pain management, which has a long waiting list—we are talking years overall when all we want is this damned mesh removing sooner rather than later”

and

“Mesh centres, what mesh centres? Same doctors been under for years. No faith at all. Only know how to put it in, not take it out.”

Another person says:

“Been waiting 15 months, and still no appointment. Was referred to UCHL, which I have heard nothing from, even though the hospital referring has resent the referral a couple of times. Been told I have to go to my local now, which is Southampton which I have heard not one positive outcome from, so basically, funding it myself with credit cards as can’t put up with the pain anymore”

while another says:

“Suffered for years before I found out what it was. My GP referred me five years ago—doctor yawned in my face & denied it was plastic. Told me it was tape. Sent me round in circles for lots of tests and visited 8 different hospitals for mainly painful procedures before I was finally sent to St Mary’s (Manchester) 3 years ago for a translabial scan.

Was sent to Wythenshawe then back to St Mary’s & told I had to see pain management clinic before I could be offered a full removal.

Covid cancelled all appointments in 2020 then I had an SNS trial implant at Northern General Christmas ’21 for bowel control (it failed) & spinal fusion L4/5 year ago for stenosis then got wound sepsis, so back in DRI for two weeks in lockdown last March. Sure the mesh damage caused all this!”

Somebody else says:

“There is a stark contrast between NHS and private, it shouldn’t be like this. I saw Professor Hashim on 1st October, he examined me, confirmed issues and said he could offer me full or partial removal. If I had been able to cough up the money I would probably be getting removal February or March. I am in his area for the Bristol mesh centre so my consultant referred me straight to him after reading his report. I have not had any communication from Southmead Bristol yet, everything I am hearing about Bristol now is that I am going to have to go through the pain clinic and try steroids etc first. Why do we have to jump through these hoops with the same surgeon just because we can’t afford…£15,000”?

Another says:

“Gynaecologist was dismissive and stated that women like me are depriving other women from benefitting from it.”