Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

6. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Minister for Health on cross-border health care provision.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Wales Office Ministers hold regular discussions with Ministers in the Welsh Government on a range of issues, including the provision of health care services along the England and Wales border. We will continue to review current arrangements to ensure that they meet patients’ needs on both sides of the border.

[Glyn Davies]

A major problem facing rural Wales is difficulty in attracting GPs to come to work in Wales, and one reason for that is the bureaucracy involved in GPs having to go through a process of specific Welsh registration. Will the Minister work with the Welsh Government and the Department of Health to bring forward a common registration programme for Wales and England?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We want the greatest flexibility in the NHS work force across the whole United Kingdom. The regulatory burden and bureaucracy involved is unacceptable, and the Department of Health and Welsh Government are working together with the support of the Wales Office to put that right.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am not sure where this is going, but I accept that the engagement of young people is exceptionally important. The purpose of this Lords amendment is to devolve the power for the referendum to the Welsh Assembly, and it can therefore make judgments accordingly.

[Glyn Davies]

I questioned the need for a referendum. Although we accept that it is part of the Bill, does the Minister think there may be a possibility at some future stage of getting to a position where we can proceed with this income tax raising power, despite Labour’s opposition, by including it in a general election manifesto and not having a referendum?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, and I pay tribute to him for his speech. The debate on devolution is moving quickly and the referendum in Scotland has changed the debate across the whole of the UK. It is up to each political party to make its judgment. It is almost certain that there will be a Wales Bill in the next Parliament, whoever is in government. There will be an opportunity for him to make the case at that stage, and for each political party to make the case leading up to the election and include an element relating to that in its manifesto.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

It is important that we learn from wherever good practice is in place. The greater choice will help to drive down costs, but it is important that we provide the right level of care, and the quality of care is important. I have no doubt that the stronger role that parents have to play in exercising that choice will also drive up the quality of care.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

2. What discussions he is having with the Welsh Government on waiting times for cross-border health treatment in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire.

Mid-Wales Connection Project

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

My hon. Friend will not be surprised to know that I agree with that point.

I want to spend a little time on the impact on democracy in central Wales and perhaps wider. Democracy is the principle on which the Government and the House of Commons operate, and people believe they can have some influence on policy through their elected Members of Parliament. That is particularly apt, because the Government are committed to the principle of localism and legislated for that in England, although there has been no such legislation in Wales. Localism is a key part of the Government’s policies.

I receive dozens of e-mails, and I have one here from someone who says that National Grid is now at their door with a legal right of access to conduct a walk-over service for the forthcoming pylon route corridor, and that they feel the rope tightening around their necks but powerless to fight against it. That is standard. A research paper from Aberystwyth university referred to the hopelessness and helplessness felt by the people of mid-Wales when they see what is happening. They do not want the pylons, but they believe that they can do nothing about it. They feel helpless.

I have spoken before about National Grid’s behaviour, which makes me cross. I received a letter yesterday from Llansantffraid community council about the way National Grid behaves. Not only that, an 86-year-old woman contacted me after going to her county councillor. She had been subject to process service, whereby heavy-duty bailiffs turned up at her door and terrified her. The chairman of the council told her straightforwardly to agree with them and to do what they say for the sake of her health. That has happened umpteen times throughout my constituency. My point is not about proper behaviour, but about the attitude to our right to influence what we can do.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his fantastic campaign here and elsewhere on behalf of his constituents. Does he agree that localism means many things, but if it is to mean anything it should take account of local constituents’ views on major projects?

[Glyn Davies]

I do, and onshore wind is not the only area where there is an uprising of local opinion. I am not saying that the Government ignore that, but there is a feeling in mid-Wales that we are being ignored. The area does not have a huge number of people living there. Shropshire is more populous, but the main impact is on mid-Wales. There is a feeling that we are being forgotten and ignored, and that is dangerous because any Government who behave like that will lose people’s support for democracy and disengage them from the process. They will start to ask why they should vote if no one in the world takes any notice.

Last Saturday morning, I went to a bring-and-buy sale at the Royal Oak in Welshpool. There were stalls selling pot plants, books and bric-à-brac to raise money to resist these developments. People had paid taxes on that money, which came from their own pockets, and they were raising it to try to obtain proper legal advice to fight the cause. At the inquiry, lined up against them, will be a row of barristers employed by wind farm companies and National Grid. Those people paid money from their own pockets to defend mid-Wales from something they believe is wrong, but in a supposedly equal position will be a row of barristers representing the companies and paid from the public purse—from subsidy. That is where the money comes from. Not only do people have to pay from their own pockets to try to defend themselves, they must pay for the other side to have the most professional advice imaginable to defend their corner.

I know the Government’s policy, and I hope that they will review it and start to take on board the general view. I have spoken about the matter before, and if we ignore the overwhelming views of the people of mid-Wales and cover the place in wind farms, it will be an abomination in one of the most beautiful parts of Britain, and a great risk to the democracy that we all hold so precious.

Cancer Care (England and Wales)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making an extremely valid point. The collection of data is exceptionally important, to identify which groups are potentially more vulnerable or which groups are not seeking the right sorts of treatment. Comparison between the home nations is important, but so is comparison between groups within the home nations, in order to bring the data together. It is exceptionally important if we are to reach the right conclusions.

I will focus on breast cancer to begin with. As I have already said, the mortality rate from breast cancer in England is 24.3 per 100,000 people, and in Wales it is 25.8 per 100,000 people. Clearly, those are worrying data, and it is worth considering the different approaches to treatment in the two nations.

In England, a patient concerned about the possibility of breast cancer can expect to see a consultant within 10 working days of the GP referral. In Wales, there is a different approach, which means that a GP differentiates between urgent and non-urgent cases. In cases that are deemed urgent, 95% of patients should expect treatment to start within 62 days, and in cases deemed non-urgent, the patient should expect treatment to start within 26 weeks. I want to underline this situation: a woman in England who is concerned about the risk of breast cancer will be reassured, or have her case elevated to the next level, within 10 days. In Wales, however, a patient has no such guarantee of consultant expertise until much, much later in the process.

We need to recognise that these are different measures and approaches. Breakthrough Breast Cancer has a helpful quote. It says that waiting for a referral is like being “left in the dark”.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

The issue of waiting time for treatment and diagnosis is important to me. Does my hon. Friend agree that there should be an absolute focus on awareness, particularly regarding colon and rectal cancer, from which the chance of recovery is far greater if diagnosed early? There has to be a focus on early diagnosis, because it greatly increases the chances of recovery.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about screening and awareness. Today I want to focus on treatment, but awareness and screening are exceptionally important and no doubt warrant another debate.

Alcohol Advertising Regulations

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Dobbin. I had several reasons for requesting the debate. The first relates to the need for appropriate rules to regulate the marketing and promotion of alcoholic products. It is also an opportunity to underline the important contribution that advertising makes to the UK economy and a chance to champion the creative industries. It is useful to have the debate to balance calls from those in some quarters who wish to see tighter regulations or even a complete ban on alcohol advertising.

My interest in the subject comes from a desire to support and champion the growth of the creative industries, and the importance of advertising as part of that. In difficult economic times, we need to recognise and support the value of the creative industries. They are one of our most important sectors and the UK is among the world leaders. Advertising alone contributes £7.8 billion to the UK economy and is the second biggest contributor to the UK’s creative industries, which accounts for 3% of gross domestic product. The UK advertising spend is forecast to grow by almost 4% this year. The value of advertising exports amounts to £1.5 billion-worth of services—nearly 2% of all exports. A large part of that value, over many years, relates to alcohol advertising.

The UK has shown the best innovation in the sector and our original thinking and advertising is admired throughout the world. I hope you will indulge me for a minute or two, Mr Dobbin, to remind you, the Minister and Members present of some of the iconic adverts that have been great successes in the UK, have been sold all over the world and have attracted international spend from product marketers. The Heineken adverts were extremely successful and innovative; a whole series was built around a humorous situation in which someone or something, after failing a task, would drink a glass of beer, which would improve their performance—be it shooting plastic ducks in a fairground or speaking English with a cut-glass accent. It all ended with the slogan that the beer

“refreshes the parts other beers cannot reach”.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I cannot do anything but intervene. When I was in my early teens, I found that Heineken reached parts that nothing else could reach. The only issue is whether that was exclusive to Heineken.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Perhaps he thought,

“I bet he drinks Carling Black Label”

could have been the slogan we use.

BBC (Proposed Cuts)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Thursday 1st December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my point.

[Alun Cairns]

Does my hon. Friend think that the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) meant Bristol, Tennessee or Bristol in Avon?

[Glyn Davies]

I think I will pass on that one.

My third point is about political coverage in Wales. The new controller of BBC Wales has produced a plan for the future. On the face of it, the plan is a worry for politicians, particularly those based here in Westminster. It looks as if political coverage in Wales, particularly of politics in Westminster, will be reduced. If that happened, it would be a huge concern for me. I am reassured that it will not. We will have to wait and see the extent to which transferring the production of programmes from BBC Wales to the private sector happens. I gather that one programme in particular will be commissioned by the private sector. Let us wait and see how it works out and whether it delivers the same level of political coverage that we have been used to.

My feeling—this is a criticism I have made of the BBC in the past and I have heard Opposition Members express the same concern—is that coverage of Westminster politics is not as strong as it should be. It is more convenient for the BBC, given that it is located in Cardiff, to contact Members of the National Assembly and to relate to them. It is more difficult for it relate to Members of Parliament. It places a responsibility on us to make sure that we are noticed and that the BBC reports what we do. It is a serious concern, and I believe that over the next couple of years, we will have to look at whether the changes to the BBC in Cardiff actually deliver what the controller tells us they are going to deliver. I hope that our fears will not prove to be worth being overly concerned about.

There is no doubt that the BBC faces a huge challenge. The reductions in the licence fee and in the investment that the BBC can make are going to mean an awful lot of changes, but £3.5 billion is a huge amount of money. My view is that the BBC will return to the swaggering, confident self it used to be but has perhaps not been for the last couple of years, so that I can start to feel comfortable complaining about the BBC again. I look forward to regaining some of the pleasure I have often taken from that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

If the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) wants to intervene on that point, I will happily respond.

James Murdoch has highlighted that when some years ago Radio 2 was losing its target audience of 24 to 45-year-olds, it paid millions of pounds to recruit Jonathan Ross to try to regain those listeners even though commercial operators already addressed that audience. If that is not an example of the BBC squeezing out competition, I do not know what is.

Does it make sense for the BBC to cover sporting events that ITV, Channels 4 or 5 or Sky would like to broadcast? I agree that we need to look at what should be free to air and whether pay per view is appropriate in all areas, but let us consider the example of Formula 1. The BBC has paid £300 million to screen Formula 1 over a five-year period. That amounts to £3 million per race, yet Sky will also broadcast every race. The partnership between Sky and the BBC is a significant and positive step forward, as it is certainly better than the previous situation of their competing outright, but two issues remain unresolved. First, could not ITV, Channels 4 or 5 or another broadcaster screen that popular sport? Secondly, the simple fact of the BBC bidding with public money will drive up the price and squeeze opportunities for others.

I recognise that the quality of the BBC can give it an edge over other broadcasters, but I remind Members that the BBC covered test match cricket for a long time, but the greatest innovations in the coverage of the sport occurred when the broadcasting rights were won by Channel 4 and then Sky, who took coverage to a much more sophisticated level. Innovations such as Hawk-Eye were introduced and a more informal approach to cricket attracted more viewers and new audiences.

I pay tribute to the BBC’s website coverage, which has set the standard for such output. It covers national and regional news in a structured way, and addresses subject matters across the spectrum from hard news to social gossip. It is an excellent example of the innovation the BBC can achieve. Yet if it continues to dominate this part of the market, that could prevent other providers—newspapers, broadcasters or even new entrants—from having the opportunity to innovate. The BBC set excellent standards, but it needs to consider whether there should be a subsequent, partial withdrawal when the market has matured.

I strongly support the BBC’s activities in areas where the market cannot provide. News in general is extremely important, and without the BBC’s news activities in many parts of the UK there simply would not be any coverage of significant news or social or cultural events. Wales and Scotland are of particular relevance in this regard, especially with the advent of devolution.

Other Members have talked about local television, so I shall now briefly address a parochial issue. The UK press does not always cover Wales as adequately as it should. This is where the BBC comes into its own of course, but in Wales its implementation of the Delivering Quality First agenda involves a squeeze on its political coverage. It argues that news is not being cut under the current proposals, yet there is a reduction in political output. Politics is news, so there is obviously a cut to news.

Although the BBC has, to its credit, responded well to devolution, that should not be achieved at the cost of coverage of non-devolved matters. Over recent years, there has been a trend to reduce political coverage on mainstream news outlets. Welsh questions have been covered on a mainstream outlet in Wales since 1987, but under current proposals that will no longer be the case.

[Glyn Davies]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Members of all parties must not stand back on this issue? Instead, we must raise our voices to complain, as a former controller of the BBC has urged, so that we in Wales get the coverage we deserve?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, and in his speech he highlighted that very point, and I underline it and pay tribute to it. Let us all have confidence about complaining to the BBC when we are unhappy so that it can respond. If we do not air issues and concerns, how will the BBC know about them?

I recognise that we, as politicians, are not the most popular people in the world. I would suggest, however, that some of the issues we debate are at least sometimes relevant to mainstream outlets in the nations and regions of the UK. There is no proposal to change coverage on the English regional output—granted, there will be local changes to BBC radio in England, but in Wales that situation does not exist.

While I am discussing Wales-related issues, I want to join my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) in recognising the deal on S4C and I pay tribute to the BBC and the Secretary of State for delivering what he promised at the outset: a channel that was well funded, secure in its funding for the future and operationally and editorially independent. There were many sceptics in the debate, but even they have now been won over. I support the tribute that was paid to Elan Closs Stephens and to the chairman of S4C, Huw Jones, at the end of the negotiations, despite some of the difficult tensions among the membership of the authority.

Let me return to the broader issues. I know that the BBC has made significant progress on salary levels, but there remains scope for some further progress, particularly in relation to talent. I know that Graham Norton’s deal reduced from £16.9 million over three years to £4 million over two.

Organ Donation

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Davies. I particularly want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) for raising an issue that is hugely important to many people. Increasing the number of organs available has become a passion of mine. The comments of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) made an impact on me. We all want to see an increase in the number of organs available for donation. We need to look at the evidence available and decide the best route to go down to achieve the increase. Over the years that I have been involved, one of the main issues looked at has been a change to opt out. We have to look at what happened in countries where they moved towards presumed consent from the position of informed consent.

As well as looking at international examples, it is important to look at the evidence of the taskforce set up by the previous Government in 2008. I have looked at the matter in detail. Spain is often quoted by people who favour presumed consent; it was their exemplar, until perhaps 12 months ago, when it became Belgium. Presumed consent was introduced in Spain in 1979, but nothing happened for 10 years. In 1989, a new law was passed in Spain, which introduced a comprehensive transplant co-ordination system throughout the country to raise awareness and understanding. That is what made the difference. From that date on, there was an increase such that Spain is now one of the best examples in the world for organ transplant.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work that he is doing in this area. Is he aware of the independent analysis of the model in Spain by our former colleagues in the Welsh Assembly? When they went to visit Spain, they were in favour of presumed consent at the outset, but they changed their minds by the time they came back. There is extremely effective evidence that can be contributed to the debate.

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. That is a point that I want to make. Nearly everybody wants to increase the number of organs available, but we must be careful to look at the evidence to ensure we do not introduce changes that will hinder that. I have read the taskforce’s careful evidence. The Prime Minister of the day said that he wanted to move down this road. Members of the taskforce tended to be supportive of that move at the start, but by the end they unanimously said it was dangerous to move in that direction and that there was a real danger of it reducing the number of organs available.

We must be incredibly careful. I welcome this debate—and indeed the debate taking place in Wales, which started yesterday—because it raises awareness of the issue. Family members will know what the wishes of the deceased were and they will be able to give permission without there being a statutory register. There is no such register in Spain—or at least hardly anyone joins it. The family must know. As long as we raise awareness and understanding of what is involved and have people who can speak to those in a difficult position—because someone has just died, or a machine is about to be turned off—in an understanding way, it will encourage the nation. If we go down that road, I think we will produce the extra organs that we need.

Wind Farms (Mid-Wales)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

It will come as no surprise to the hon. Gentleman that in principle I do agree with him on that point, but I want to touch on that area and the relationship to the National Assembly for Wales later in my speech.

The people of mid-Wales are a reasonable people. If the proposal were essential to the national interest, or if it was necessary in some way to accept the destruction of our environment for some overwhelmingly greater good, we would in all probability accept it with traditional stoicism. We would be deeply upset, of course, but we would accept the responsibility to our nation. However, that is obviously not the case; the development is all for no good purpose.

I will not go into detail about the utterly pathetic performance of the onshore wind sector in Wales, but each day we read new reports of how poorly its performance compares with what is claimed for it when new proposals are put forward. The Renewable Energy Foundation tells me that its most recent figures show that Welsh wind farms have a load factor of just 19%—the lowest ever recorded. We also know that there is a need for back-up energy generation to cover periods when the wind is not blowing, or is blowing too strongly. Little is heard about that when onshore wind developers extol the virtues of their proposals and sell their wares. The truth is that onshore wind simply does not deliver what we are told it will; it does not do what it says on the tin.

The most important industry in mid-Wales is seriously under threat because of the proposals. In my constituency alone, the local tourism alliance estimates the value of tourism at £360 million per year, and 6,300 jobs depend on it. Tourism dominates the economy, but the beautiful landscape of mid-Wales will be sacrificed on the altar of a false god. What sense can it make to erect up to 800 new turbines in mid-Wales when they will be 30 to 50 miles from any connection to the national grid? That makes no economic or climate change sense whatever; it is almost as if the plan was drawn up with no consideration of where the national grid was.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, and on the exceptional work that he has done in standing up for his community in Montgomeryshire, for mid-Wales and for communities across the border. Does he regret the fact that a centralised policy framework exists in Wales, and that even if the local planning authority rejects the application for the project, the chances of success on appeal are pretty strong, so the Welsh Assembly Government will have the final say? Does he regret the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government are not following the localism framework that exists in England, which would give local people much stronger rights to object to such applications?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. I will come to the role of TAN 8 and the Assembly Government in the last part of my speech, because it is key. It might seem that I am focusing overly on the position of the National Assembly for Wales, but it is crucial. Decisions will be taken in a number of places, but against the policy background of TAN 8.

The carbon impact of the development can never be compensated for by any possible carbon benefit. There is the cost of importing materials over such a large distance and over a road network that is totally unsuitable for such traffic; huge investment will be necessary just to get them to the wind farms that are to be built. There are also other environmental costs, such as the destruction of the peat bogs and much else.

In the middle of my constituency, there is a wind farm with 103 turbines, which have been there for 20 years and which are now to be taken down and replaced with new, larger turbines. However, the huge concrete pads on which the redundant turbines are built will not be removed; the turbines will be removed, but these huge lumps of concrete will stay in the ground. There will be 103 of them, together with 40-odd for the turbines that are taking the place of the old ones, and I suppose there will be another 50 when another wind farm comes along on the same site in 15 years. The destruction over a long period is almost impossible to calculate.

Even worse is the seemingly deliberate conflation of the terms “onshore wind” and “renewable energy”, which has done huge damage to public support for the latter. Most people I know are, or at least were, proud to describe themselves as being supportive of renewable energy, but the obsession with onshore wind has undermined public support for renewable energy. Occasionally—actually, this has happened only once since the scale of the proposals became known—I have heard, or rather have heard of, words of support for turbines and pylons, but those words totally dismissed all that those of us who have chosen to stay in the area greatly value. After a recent recording session for a live Welsh TV programme, a friend complained that 90% of the mid-Wales uplands would be covered in wind turbines. A representative of a local environment organisation shouted out, “What about covering the other 10% as well?” I cannot verify that conversation with precision, but the drift is clear. Such people have no absolutely idea what damage they are doing to the cause they purport to support.

There is also the opportunity cost. The massive public subsidy that onshore wind is swallowing up is just as damaging to the future of renewable energy, which will be crucial to our energy supply over the next decades. So much more could have been done to advance the wider cause of renewable energy. Biomass potentially has a great future in mid-Wales, and I could also mention microgeneration, marine power—wave and tidal power—offshore wind and solar photovoltaics, as well as several other sources of power generation that I cannot immediately recall. Indeed, there are probably several others I have never heard of. However, those possible sources of future renewable energy are not being developed because of an obsession with onshore wind. When we have turbines on the hills, politicians can point at them and say, “We did that,” but all they have done is wreak serious damage on the land that the people of mid-Wales think of as their own. Thousands of pounds have been poured into onshore wind, restricting the development of forms of renewable energy that the public would actually welcome.

In the last part of my speech, I want to look at how we reached today’s position; often, we need to look back to decide how best to move forward. I was the chairman of the local planning authority in Montgomeryshire through the 1980s, and onshore wind farms were novel at the time. However, it quickly became clear that they were hugely divisive, and most of us will have had experience of how divisive they can be, splitting communities and even families. Even at the time, I was never convinced that onshore wind was a worthwhile technology, but I could see that it was an important new technology with possibilities and that research was needed.

Several wind farms were developed in Montgomeryshire —one was the biggest in Europe when it was built—and there are many wind farms there now. Although they had a localised impact, I did not think that they were a threat to the entire region, even though some quite visionary people warned me that we were opening the door to the sort of thing that eventually happened. The Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales, of which I was the president for three years before I was elected to this place, was particularly vociferous, and it deserves congratulations on the position that it took from an early stage. Even though I was not convinced of the value of onshore wind farms at the time, my general attitude, and that of most of the population, was that mid-Wales was a large and beautiful place that could accommodate some new wind farms.

That was my attitude until 2005, and it was most people’s attitude until perhaps two months ago. One fateful day in 2005, however, the Assembly Government published a statement updating TAN 8, which offered local planning authorities guidance on how to deal with planning applications. I was horrified by what it meant, and those who discussed it over a quite a long period were equally horrified. Today, the entire population is horrified.