Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Seema Kennedy]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, immigration is an issue for the whole United Kingdom, now and after we leave the European Union.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

T9. In Staffordshire, we welcome the 90 new police officers we are getting as part of the Government’s investment, but we also recognise the danger that those officers put themselves in every day. Officers are asking for access to Tasers in order to keep them safe. Will the Home Secretary commit that any police officer who wants a Taser will get one, and when will they be getting hold of them?

[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend will know that the deployment of Tasers is an operational matter for chief constables, and it is obviously for them to determine the number of Tasers for officers. However, we have introduced a £10 million Taser fund, and that funding will mean that over 10,000 more officers in England and Wales will have the opportunity to carry a Taser.

Policing: Staffordshire

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)]

I am delighted to add my voice to this important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) on securing it. Stoke-on-Trent is a city on the up, but it has its challenges that must be met. It is a city of six towns and many communities, each with its own character and policing challenges. It is the authentic urban heart of an historic county and is very much distinct, as a unitary authority of considerable urban density, from the more rural nature of the rest of the county. That is reflected in the types of policing and challenges often faced by our police officers.

I applaud our local police and crime commissioner, Matthew Ellis, for recognising the importance of localised policing within a county-wide force. We experienced that together on his recent working visit to Longton police station and the walkabout with local officers in Stoke-on-Trent South over the summer. After a decade of hard work, the public finances have successfully been pulled back from the brink of disaster, so we can confidently step up the funding available to the police. I greatly support the new Prime Minister’s commitment to an extra 20,000 new officers and an increase in the visibility of police patrols over the next three years.

Sadly, what has been all too visible to my constituents recently is antisocial behaviour, particularly linked to gangs and drugs. I spoke previously in this Chamber in a debate tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) about the impact of drugs, especially Monkey Dust, which has been a significant challenge in Stoke-on-Trent, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North. I am pleased to say that the huge efforts of Staffordshire police have cut off the supply of that horrific drug and have resulted in a significant decline in reported cases.

Last week, I was impressed to witness officers conduct a raid on a property in my constituency suspected of being connected to drugs-related crimes. It was part of a day of action under Operation Disrupt, during which about 25 properties suspected of being connected to drugs, organised crime and violence across the south of the city were raided. Of course, the root causes of gangs and drugs are many and complex. Drugs and gang behaviour are the blight of some working-class communities.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) for organising the debate. Like my hon. Friend, I joined my local police on Operation Disrupt a few weeks ago. It was fantastic to see the force bringing together resources from across the county to put the criminal on the back foot. As the police went in with their chainsaw, called “Nige the Chainsaw”, which destroyed the door of the house where drug dealing was going on, the neighbours who came out cheered, and they cheered again as the criminals were led away. Does my hon. Friend agree that that kind of proactive policing not only puts the criminal on the back foot but gives great confidence to the general public that we take such things seriously and are prepared to take action as a police force and a Government?

[Jack Brereton]

I absolutely agree. I witnessed the same thing. In seconds, the door was ripped off. As my hon. Friend suggests, those communities—people who have been terrorised by those activities for a long time—are relieved by the police’s actions.

As I was saying, drugs and gang behaviour are the blight of some working-class communities but they are not the preserve of those communities by any means. In fact, all too often it is the demand for drugs from metropolitan middle-class gangs—dinner parties and social circles, as they prefer to call them—that fuels and sustains the horror of drug and gang-related behaviour in working-class areas.

There is huge concern and anguish in areas such as Meir and Fenton in my constituency that drugs gangs, and gangs that have nothing to do with drugs, have been seen to get away with criminal behaviour, unchallenged by, and unafraid of, the police. The police do not enforce the law by consent; they enforce the law by the force of the rule of law as decided by this House. My constituents have a deep sense that justice is served when the law is enforced without fear or favour.

I was grateful to be involved, with law enforcement, in securing eight civil injunctions against local individuals who have time and again, provocatively and shamelessly, broken the law and made life a misery for the law-abiding majority of decent people who just want to secure a peaceful life, get on with their jobs or enjoy a well-earned retirement after years of hard work. I congratulate the authorities, the police, the council and everybody else who has contributed to ensuring that we have secured those injunctions.

In Stoke-on-Trent South, the local police have ramped up their efforts over the past 12 months by more than doubling the number of stop-and-searches. Only a year ago, Meir had the highest number of antisocial behaviour incidents in Staffordshire, but thankfully those actions have massively reduced that number. We must do all we can to help to reform those offenders, but the overriding priority must always be to protect the law-abiding majority against the criminal few.

Of course, a very small number of young people enter a life of crime. Most importantly, we must do much more preventative work locally to stop young people being led into antisocial behaviour and crime. I pay warm tribute to the Staffordshire police cadets. I have met the active local group in Longton and was delighted to welcome it to the Palace of Westminster recently. It has focused on giving public service and community spirit back to our local area in a scheme initiated by Commissioner Ellis. It is a great legacy of his years in office.

As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North has mentioned, Home Office Ministers have been extremely supportive, for which I thank them. I am especially delighted by the £612,000 being invested by the Government, which will be shared between the city council and Staffordshire police to help to deliver more preventative work to reduce youth violence and gangs. I have also been working with local schools, Ormiston Meridian Academy and Trentham Academy, to deliver new 3G sports pitches at both sites to help to improve facilities for young people. In addition, I have supported the YMCA to set up new youth groups across the south of the city. Those actions will help to ensure that young people have the facilities they deserve and are not drawn into ASB and a life of crime.

I welcome the Home Secretary’s assurance that stop-and-search will be part of a reassuring visible policing solution. The police know that they must conduct searches with professionalism and courtesy and make it clear that, for those with nothing to hide, there is really nothing to fear. I trust them to do just that and I respect their judgment. As I have said, I saw only last week the brave work that our outstanding Staffordshire police officers are undertaking in Operation Disrupt, and I am hugely proud to represent many of those officers in this House. I am delighted by the increase in the number of police officers, for which I thank the Government and the Prime Minister. I back them wholeheartedly in their fight against the misery of crime.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Yes, I recognise that—

[The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury (Andrew Griffiths)]

But you were wrong.

[Mr Jones]

From a sedentary position on the Treasury Bench, the hon. Gentleman says that I was wrong, but I was not. In Durham and other places, the flat budget for police funding from central Government will have to be made up by local taxpayers. Taking into account the pay increase and inflation, that will amount to a real-terms cut.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his work with his local councillors on this important matter. I welcome the community strategy document he mentions and would be happy to meet him and Councillor Price.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

8. What assessment she has made of the level of illegal drug use in the UK.

[The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker)]

Drug use in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level since records began, in 1996. The number of heroin and crack cocaine users in England has fallen below 300,000 for the first time since 2004-05. Drug-related deaths in England and Wales have continued to fall over the last three years. Numbers successfully completing drug treatment free of dependency in England have risen since 2009-10.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I congratulate the Government on their success in reducing the use of certain drugs, but we are still not recording the use of many drugs, particularly legal highs. Given that we are seeing a fall in cannabis use but there is a great deal of evidence of an increase in legal high cannabinoid use, does the Minister not agree that if we want to protect our young people, we need to record all the drugs they are taking, including legal highs?

[Norman Baker]

I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s question and I agree that many of the chemical highs or new psychoactive substances—the so-called legal highs, although I prefer not to use the word “legal” because that implies that they are both legal and safe and some are neither—can be more dangerous than other drugs that people recognise as dangerous. There has been a decline in drug use among young people, but he is right to draw attention to that aspect. I established an expert panel on it late last year and I look forward to receiving its recommendations shortly.

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[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

T9. An increasing number of people are buying illegal drugs on the internet. Indeed, the recent global drugs survey found that 22% of respondents had used websites such as Silk Road. Given that increasing problem, what extra resources are being made available to the National Crime Agency, and how will the Minister prioritise this matter among the NCA’s work?

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to say that there has been a reduction in knife crime under this Government. That is shown not only by the crime figures, but by the NHS data, which show that about 14% fewer people were admitted to hospital due to assault with a sharp object, including knives, in the year to March 2013. Police recorded crime also showed that knife crime was down by 10%. We created a new offence in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 for those who carry a knife in a public place or a school and go on to threaten and cause an immediate risk of serious physical harm to another person.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

12. What steps she is taking to restrict the supply of new psychoactive substances.

[The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker)]

The coalition Government has banned hundreds of new psychoactive substances. We work closely with law enforcement partners to tackle this reckless trade. Concerted action, which started in November, has resulted in 44 arrests and seizures of new psychoactive substances, including 9 kg seized by Kent police. I am leading a review to look at how the UK’s response to such new drugs can be further strengthened.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I thank the Minister for his response and for the action that has been taken so far. However, may I draw his attention to the report, “No Quick Fix”, that was compiled by the Centre for Social Justice? It shows that although there are 234 controlled drugs, 251 uncontrolled drugs are available as we speak and the figure is increasing by one a week. What will he do to close down the supply chain, particularly through head shops on the high street and through the internet?

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to say that we have already banned more than 250 new substances. We will continue to introduce bans and to use temporary control orders. I have asked the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs to review the generic definitions that are used to ban families of drugs to get even speedier action.

Alcohol Strategy Consultation

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Browne]

Again, safe levels of alcohol consumption are more a matter for the Department of Health than the Home Office. With regard to licensing regulations, we have brought in quite a lot of restrictions. For example, it will no longer be possible to find the kinds of offers where a flat-rate fee is paid to enter a bar and one can then get unlimited free drinks, or where women are served free drinks but men are not. Such promotions, which we believe were irresponsible and encouraged irresponsible and excessive drinking, represent exactly the type of approach that we have been able to curtail using the lighter touch and more localised approach that I have recommended to Members this afternoon.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

Although I welcome much of the Minister’s statement, does he not accept that the community pub is not the problem, but the solution to problem drinking? Does he not accept that drink bought in supermarkets at cheap prices is the problem, which the statement will do nothing to address? Does he honestly think that this policy will put prices up on the supermarket shelf?

[Mr Browne]

I do not wholly agree with my hon. Friend’s conclusions. I will make three very brief points. First, I think that the measure will make a difference—I am not exaggerating its scale—by introducing VAT plus duty as the bottom threshold. Secondly, many supermarkets are taking voluntary action following the types of representations I have been talking about. Asda, for example, has removed alcohol promotions from the reception areas of its supermarkets, which some people thought were inappropriate. Thirdly, the Government reduced beer duty in the most recent statement from the Chancellor, which I hope will help pubs in my hon. Friend’s constituency and across the country.

Abu Qatada (Deportation)

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the support that he and, as he indicates, his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) have given to the action that has been taken—I must say that this is an unusual day for the Home Office, but I suspect that the normal situation will resume fairly soon. We are indeed turning our attention to ensuring that doors are closed.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I join the whole House in congratulating the Home Secretary and the security Minister on their stunning success in deporting Abu Qatada. I am not sure what gave me greater pleasure on Sunday: watching Andy Murray’s victory or the news that Mr Qatada was leaving on a jet plane. What assessment have her officials made of the right of Mr Qatada’s family to remain in the United Kingdom should he be found guilty in Jordan?

[Mrs May]

Obviously we will be considering that issue, but of course members of his family will have a decision to make on where they see their future.

Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I am pleased to have secured this debate. I thank Mr Speaker for selecting it and I am glad that it is taking place under your assured chairmanship, Mr Sheridan.

Alcohol pricing is of great concern to many MPs. The subject has been raised by Back Benchers on both sides of the House in recent Home Office, Health and Business questions, and it has been the subject of a number of early-day motions that received cross-party support.

Some say that alcohol misuse, with its related health and social problems, is a major problem in the United Kingdom, so it is right that we should debate how alcohol pricing can help to tackle it. A constituent of mine wrote to me recently, saying that politicians are too reactive and unwilling to offer leadership on difficult issues. The Conservative-led Government have certainly made a start on alcohol pricing, but it is a rather timid one. I hope they can be persuaded to be bold and to act swiftly. If they do not do so, precious lives may be lost and many lives blighted.

The British Medical Association has highlighted the staggering cost of alcohol abuse to the national health service, at £2.8 billion. The British Society of Gastroenterology says that a serious cost is attached to cheap booze, and the UK is now paying the price.

I requested this debate primarily because of my interest in public health, and I am glad to see the Home Office Minister and the shadow Minister here today. We all know that antisocial behaviour, fuelled by binge drinking, can blight our neighbourhoods; and many are affected in their own homes as a result of domestic violence and the breakdown of relationships.

A British crime survey showed that half of all crime is alcohol related. In 2008, the then South Wales police chief constable warned people that

“In Wales you are more likely to be assaulted by someone you know than anywhere else in the UK…alcohol plays a huge, huge role in it.”

Similar findings were set out in the excellent report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, produced in the previous Parliament under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz); I am pleased to see him here today.

Figures released last week show that Wales has among the highest rates of death in the UK linked to alcohol. Over Christmas in my local area of Gwent, as a result of the Wales drink-drive campaign 95 people were found to be over the limit. Despite the snow and ice and the wind chill factor to be found at 1,200 feet—a time when most sober people would not dream of driving—some drivers were on the road and over the limit.

I raised this matter in the Christmas recess Adjournment debate and called on the Government for tougher action. A recent Alcohol Concern report showed that more than 92,000 children and young people under the age of 18 were admitted to hospital as a result of alcohol misuse between 2002 and 2009. Girls are more likely to need hospital treatment than boys. Furthermore, a university of Manchester study found that some young women were consuming more than a week’s allowance of alcohol units in a single night. Excessive drinking leads them to take more risks, such as walking home alone when drunk, particularly after they have sampled a ladies “drink for free” promotion. Since 1970, we have seen a threefold increase in cirrhosis, but it is ninefold for those under the age of 45. The age at which people develop cirrhosis has been falling, and even teenagers are now developing liver failure.

The Welsh Assembly rightly wants to take effective action to help people in Wales, but points out that the main levers for making the most significant change remain with the Government, who have the power to legislate on price, licensing and advertising—the Government did not accede to the Welsh Assembly’s request for alcohol licensing powers to be devolved.

Another problem is the so-called pocket-money priced alcohol on offer in supermarkets. That can undermine local pubs, which are generally places of responsible drinking. My dad was a publican after working as a steelworker, and before becoming a bread delivery man. Other Members will doubtless wish to elaborate on the negative effect that such pricing can have on pubs and the local community.

Before going any further, may I say that when seeking to reduce harmful drinking we must, in tandem, provide adequate funding for alcohol research, treatment and prevention programmes, with sufficient training for health professionals to detect and manage those who have alcohol misuse problems.

The Minister with responsibility for public health, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), said:

“The Government alone cannot improve public health; we need to use all the tools in the box.”—[Official Report, 21 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 1351.]

I would argue that alcohol pricing is a high-powered tool—and one that should be used now.

The Government may be about to act—I give credit where it is due—but their proposed minimum price is too low. It covers only duty and VAT. As the National Retail Federation said, the Government’s “duty plus VAT” definition woefully fails to cover the real cost of alcohol; 40p for a litre of cider can hardly be considered positive action. For me, it is the duty of Government to protect and promote the health of their citizens. I am unpersuaded by the concern expressed by the Wine and Spirit Trade Association that minimum pricing will hit responsible drinkers and hurt the poor the most. I cannot believe that responsible drinkers expect to get their alcohol at “duty plus VAT” prices, with no allowance for production or distribution costs.

Furthermore, as the Alcohol Health Alliance points out,

“low alcohol prices means that responsible drinkers are subsidising the behaviour of the 25% of the population who are drinking at hazardous or harmful levels.”

The effect of a minimum price on moderate drinkers will be low, as they consume less alcohol. If a 50p minimum price were introduced, it would mean an increase in spending on alcohol of less than 23p a week for a moderate drinker; but a heavy drinker could pay slightly more than £3 a week.

As for the poor being most affected by high prices, I cannot repeat too often that alcohol misuse costs us £2.8 billion. If we include the cost of crime and absenteeism from work, the bill would be much higher. The Government clearly need some more detailed research. We know that the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, the British Medical Association, the Association of Chief Police Officers and others have called for a realistic minimum price for alcohol. How can the Government justify a minimum price for alcohol that covers only taxes but not the production and distribution costs? Will that really reduce binge drinking in our towns, particularly among vulnerable young women? Perhaps the Minister will tell us.

A spokesperson for the British Liver Trust said on BBC News 24 that the Government’s proposal would save 21 lives a year. That is good, but I understand that research commissioned by the Department of Health demonstrates that a minimum unit price of 20p, 30p, 40p and 50p would prevent 30, 300, 1,300 and 3,300 deaths respectively.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman wishes to increase the price of alcohol on the supermarket shelves and discourage the unscrupulous pricing behaviour that has been displayed. However, one of the unintended consequences of minimum pricing is that it could skew the market and encourage people to drink spirits such as vodka, which is becoming an increasing problem among young drinkers.

[Nick Smith]

The point about discouraging young people is powerfully made, and I know that unintended consequences can be a problem. That is why we need more research. Having said that, I still think the price suggested by the Government is way too low.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing this hugely important debate. We all see the consequences of drinks pricing in our high streets and A and E departments, so I pay tribute to him for recognising the importance of this issue.

I am the vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary beer group and the MP for Burton. I am proud to say that Burton is the home of British beer. We have Carling Black Label, Marston’s Pedigree and Punch Taverns, which is the biggest pub company in the country. The Minister has been incredibly generous with his time. He has met members of the all-party parliamentary beer group, the Save the Pub group and the Campaign for Real Ale group. He has met the brewers and the pub owners and taken time to listen to the concerns and issues that so many of them face, and I thank him for that. I also thank him for recognising that pricing in the supermarkets is dangerous and is having an impact on our young people and on society. As a Government, it is important that we take action to tackle the problem. I doubt whether there is anybody in this Chamber who finds it acceptable for supermarkets to use alcohol as a loss-leader or as a giveaway to get people through the supermarket tills, yet that is what we are seeing daily.

I am glad that this Government have had the determination and confidence to produce legislation that, for the first time, not only recognises that cheap booze is a problem for society but sets out to do something about it. Sadly, though, like Oliver in “Oliver Twist”, I have to say, “Please, Sir, can I have some more?” None of us here believes that the price level that has been set, although well intentioned, will have a massive effect on drinking behaviour, particularly among young people.

It is interesting to put the whole matter into context. In 1987, the price of a pint of lager in the pub was £1, and in an off-licence 70p. By 2010, the pub figure had gone up to £3 and the off-licence figure had stayed pretty much the same at about £1. We have seen prices in pubs increase by more than prices in off-licences over that period.

[Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

I recently met the chair of one of the local working men’s clubs in my constituency. After a debate about whether or not the club should allow in women, about which we did not agree, we spoke about the pricing of alcohol. The club is concerned about the pricing issue. It believes that aggressive, cheap offers from supermarkets and corner shops are a big attack on its very survival. Historically, working men’s clubs are a key part of social life, particularly in the north-east, and we need to have that at the front of our minds when we consider minimum pricing levels.

[Andrew Griffiths]

If the hon. Lady would like to come to Rolleston working men’s club in my constituency, she will be welcomed with open arms and provided with alcohol in a safe and regulated environment. We all recognise that the pub and the working men’s club provide a safe, regulated environment in which people can enjoy a pint or a glass of wine and interact socially. They are the social hub of our communities. Unfortunately, supermarkets’ pricing and their use of alcohol as a loss- leader is making it almost impossible for our pubs and clubs to compete. As a result, we have seen the shift in drinking behaviour. As I am sure that the Minister is aware, 70% of all alcohol is sold through the supermarkets. If we go back 20 years, the difference in the sale of beer between pubs and off-licences was 80:20; now, it is 50:50. We are seeing supermarkets constantly eroding pub sales.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman is dealing with a very important point that relates to the social issue associated with drinking. I am talking about parents who may be buying alcohol regularly from the supermarkets at a very low price. Poor parenting skills can result, which will lead to parents having problems at home with their children. That is a hidden issue that results from the pricing policy, and it needs to be resolved.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. However, there are those who say, “Why should we penalise someone who wants to buy a 24-pack of strong lager and take it home and drink one can a night for 24 days? Why should we penalise that?” The reality, however, is different. The clients at the Burton addiction centre in my constituency will talk about the impact that cheap booze has on fuelling people’s drinking consumption.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

My hon. Friend seems to be against these loss-leaders. Would he outlaw loss-leaders for chocolate, salt, butter and other things that are not good for us if we take them in excess?

[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. However, I cannot remember the last time I was on Burton high street and saw two guys knocking seven bells out of each other over a Toblerone. I also cannot remember the last time I was in Queen’s hospital A and E and doctors were pumping somebody’s stomach because they had overdosed on too much butter. The reality is that alcohol is a very different beast from things such as chocolate.

[Mr Chope]

Surely the issue is not whether alcohol is distinct from other products, but the use made of it by the people who consume it. Is my hon. Friend not in danger of victimising people, particularly poor families, who benefit from these loss-leaders? He is trying to put forward the argument that, by penalising those poor families, he will tackle the problem of binge drinking, which I do not think he will.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern, but the people we are penalising are the taxpayers, who have to pay for the consequences of binge drinking through the costs of extra policing and the impacts on A and E departments. Furthermore, if I am being brutally honest it is those poor families who suffer most as a result of cheap alcohol. Young people and poor families are much more price-sensitive to alcohol than others.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Surely there is a more basic problem. The nation’s increasing addiction to alcohol is placing a huge strain upon the NHS—£2.7 billion a year. Surely we are talking on many occasions about treating the consequences of alcohol-related harm, rather than taking early action to prevent alcohol problems.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman gets right to the nub of the problem. I think we all recognise that a pub or a club is a supervised environment in which people can safely consume alcohol. When I was a young man, many was the time when I might have had a half of lager too much, or a half of Marston’s Pedigree too much, and somebody—my parents, my friends or somebody else a bit older and wiser than me—might have said, “Right, son, you’ve had enough, it’s time to go home”, or the barman might have said, “I’m sorry, sir, I’m not serving you any more, you’ve had too much”. However, the reality now is that too many young people are drinking to excess in an unsupervised manner.

The real problem is not only the price disparity. In recent years, there has been a massive increase in the regulatory burden placed on pubs and clubs—the smoking ban, for example—and a constant increase in the amount of red tape and supervision associated with dealing with the consequences of binge drinking. Actually, in many cases the pub only sells the last pint, because young people in particular are “pre-loading” before going out. When they get to the pub—increasingly, at later times in the evening—they are half-cut and the pubs have to deal with the consequences of that, including the fights and other problems. The danger is that we are loading too much of the burden on to pubs, when actually the supermarkets are driving a lot of this antisocial behaviour.

The previous Government did a lot of work with publicans to prohibit the “two for one” offer, the “happy hour” and the “drink as much as you can for a tenner” promotions that were fuelling excessive drinking. The pub industry, working with Government, took action to try to prevent those promotions—and yet it is perfectly okay for someone to buy a 24-pack of Stella or another strong lager from a supermarket. There are no restrictions on that.

Supermarkets are using beer as a loss-leader. We have seen the impact that supermarkets have had on milk and the dairy market through driving down the price of milk. They are doing the same with bread, and now they are using alcohol as a loss-leader. That is very dangerous and is sending out completely the wrong message to young people.

I thank the Minister very much for what the Government have done so far, but it is not enough. We need to go further. What we are all hoping for is some recognition today that this is the first step on a journey. The Minister will himself admit that if we agree that cheap alcohol is a problem, the question must arise, “How cheap is too cheap?” Is he honestly saying that he thinks we have got to where we need to get to on alcohol pricing, when we are still selling cider at 20p a can, beer at 38p a can and wine at £1.99?

If the Government and the Minister’s intentions are to be delivered, any solution must lead to an increase in the price of alcohol on the supermarket shelf. We need the Minister to take that idea forward and drive it home. I know that, like me, he has been frustrated that, with below-cost selling, we have not yet been able to find a solution that satisfies both the lawyers in Brussels and the industry here. I hope that today, he will issue another declaration to the industry, asking it to come forward with ideas on a meaningful definition of below-cost selling that includes the cost of production, so that we can see an increase in the price of alcohol on supermarket shelves and begin to tackle some of the supermarkets’ deeply dangerous activities.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

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[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Coors, a fine brewer in my constituency, has extended the terms on which it pays its suppliers from 30 days to 90 days. It is having a considerable impact, particularly on small businesses.

[Greg Mulholland]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

Why would supermarkets not welcome either a genuine ban on below-cost selling, which I support, or a minimum price per unit, which other hon. Members support? Those approaches would increase their revenue, but they sell cheap alcohol for other reasons. Let us face it: supermarkets have virtually destroyed the stand-alone off-licence trade in this country. Names such as Threshers disappeared some time ago. We must remember that pubs, working men’s clubs, stand-alone off-licences and corner shops cannot sell alcohol below cost, because they rely on a reasonable margin on alcohol for their profits. There is something more sinister going on. Below-cost selling is a way to attract people into stores and maintain supermarkets’ power over manufacturers, some of which, unlike Coors, are too small to argue. That situation is causing a problem.

I accept that the issue is difficult, but we must come up with a definition of below-cost selling that includes the cost of production. I realise that we are on the first step, and I accept that the issue is difficult to define, but to say that below-cost selling simply involves tax suggests that supermarkets buy alcohol for nothing. They might take a long time to pay, but they clearly pay something. The price that they pay is often unreasonable, exactly as it is for the milk that they purchase from dairy farmers, but there is nevertheless a price. It cannot be impossible to include in the equation the price that the supermarkets must pay. That is the challenge, and I look forward to working with the Minister on it over time.

I accept some of the concerns aired by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). This is not about social engineering, moralising or saying that we should not sometimes welcome a reasonable deal and the chance to get a couple of pounds off a bottle of wine in a supermarket. Indeed, many people are concerned that if we set a high minimum price, that chance would disappear. There would also be other unintended consequences. For example, apart from increasing supermarket revenues, which is surely perverse, it could have the surprising effect of pushing up the price of a bottle of wine that currently costs £3.50 and is not worth more than that, and making good bottles of wine more expensive, which is not what any of us want. People should be allowed to enjoy alcohol sensibly without sudden unacceptable inflationary pressures.

I am concerned to stop the irresponsible selling of alcohol, which I am glad to say has been largely stamped out in the on trade but is, sadly, still alive and well, particularly in supermarkets. The Government have made a good start, but they can go further. I know that the Minister is listening, and I look forward to working with him and his team to close the unacceptable gap that has done so much damage to pubs, which are part of the solution to problem drinking, and to do something—we must recognise that it is only something—to deal with the problems associated with alcohol abuse that other hon. Members have rightly discussed.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I also think it is an intervention that ought to have been directed at the Minister, not me, and perhaps the Minister will respond to it.

Obviously, there is a point in what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I also think it is important that this country does not just automatically proscribe an organisation because Government X, Y or Z has said so. If we did that, our history would be very different. Apartheid South Africa banned the African National Congress, yet the ANC had offices in this country, organised in this country, was completely open in this country, and eventually apartheid fell and the ANC became the Government of South Africa. I think we have to be a little careful about making instant responses all the time to banning requests made by particular regimes. I hold no brief whatever for the organisation under discussion tonight; I just think one should be slightly cautious.

Kongra Gele Kurdistan is listed, together with a number of Somali organisations. I have a very large Kurdish community in my constituency, as well as a very large Somali community. None of the people I speak to or represent holds any brief for violence or terrorist actions. They want a political development and a political solution to their problems in Somalia and Kurdistan. I suspect that the Minister will have difficulty in replying to this point tonight, but I urge him to look seriously at those organisations and to review the need for a positive democratic dialogue and process with the Kurdish people to bring about a peaceful resolution in Turkey, and the same goes for Somalia.

Banning and proscription do not necessarily work. What works is political dialogue. Let us consider what happened in Northern Ireland. Gerry Adams and John Hume came to an agreement and we eventually brought about a whole peace process there. It is important to look for positive solutions, rather than instant banning and the use of the state apparatus to suppress legitimate political activity.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman argues that the democratic process and dialogue cannot take place because some of these groups have been proscribed. He seems to suggest that that in some way hampers democratic dialogue. Clearly, these organisations do not speak for their communities as a whole, however. He mentioned that many of these groups no longer exist. Is it not the case that they no longer exist simply because they were proscribed?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

There are various reasons why they are not in existence; some are to do with proscription, but some are to do with military activities in the countries concerned. There is a whole host of reasons.

My point is that proscribing organisations that probably do not exist, and in some cases naming people or suggesting naming people who are alleged to be representatives of those organisations, in turn limits their opportunity for legitimate political activity and political dialogue. I have drawn the parallel with what happened in Northern Ireland, and the parallel of the attitude that was adopted not by this country but by others towards the ANC in South Africa when the apartheid regime wanted it banned worldwide. I just think one has to look to bring about a solution to such problems, rather than having too simple a process.

I hold no brief whatever for the organisation under discussion, and the will of the House is clearly that the order should be passed. I just wanted to use this opportunity—I thank you for allowing me it, Mr Speaker—to encourage the Minister to consider the points that have been put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), myself and others who have concerns about the process involved in this order.

Drugs Policy

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)]

Thank you for presiding over our debate this afternoon, Mr Walker.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the debate. I asked for a full day in the Chamber, in prime time, and the Committee gave me three hours in Westminster Hall, on a one-line Whip, on a Thursday—the last sitting Thursday before Christmas—but I am grateful none the less.

We are not so well attended that we will run out of time, so that will not be an issue, but I hope, Mr Walker, that you will use your offices to ensure that everyone gets an opportunity to speak, irrespective of their views. We need what I am, effectively, calling for—a full and comprehensive debate on drugs policy.

As people know, I was in charge of drugs policy for about two years in the early part of the past decade, as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department under my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). My right hon. Friend managed to get agreement from the then Prime Minister and Cabinet giving us a little headroom to make some progress on drugs. Before then, we had the regime of the drugs tsar—a lot of debate but not enough progress—but my right hon. Friend managed to gain some leeway. We ran that whole debate as comprehensively as we could, because we were looking to refresh our drugs strategy. We involved as many people as we could, such as practitioners in treatment, police officers and the Select Committee on Home Affairs, which was enormously helpful in thinking things through.

I am not unproud of some of the things that we did, but we did far too little. We took the policy in the right direction. Yes, the classification of cannabis got all the headlines at the time—we took cannabis from class B to class C, in line with the scientific information—and that appeared to be the only thing in which the press were interested, but we did a lot else besides.

We brought in guidance for clubs, encouraging them to have water fountains, so that young people did not die of dehydration if they had taken ecstasy. We opened the door to heroin prescription in my response to the Home Affairs Committee. That was difficult—some people in the Government were enormously worried—although, if we read the response, we can see that the door was open only a small fraction. However, open it was, and that was one of the most important things. I thought that we could follow that up over time, and use heroin prescription as one of the tools to reduce harm.

We put harm minimisation at the forefront of our policy and we massively expanded treatment. When Members look at the reasons for the fall in crime—acquisitive crime, in particular—in recent years, yes, of course they can look at the increased police numbers paid for by the previous Government or the initiatives on antisocial behaviour, which made positive contributions, but they do not look nearly enough at the huge increase in drug treatment that we brought in. People do not fully appreciate the extent of the link between heroin addiction, in particular, and acquisitive crime and prostitution. Overwhelmingly, prostitutes in our country do what they do because they are addicted to drugs. A huge proportion of acquisitive crime is committed in order to pay for a habit. We also introduced an education policy, Talk to Frank, which is still going. I am glad that the new Government are to continue it, because giving people good advice on the consequences of drugs is so important.

Many people ask, as they did in the media this morning, why on earth I did not do or say the things that I am advocating now when I was in government. I had a choice to make. As people saw this morning, the Minister is straight out, saying, “This is wrong and I can’t approve it.” My own party disagrees with what I am saying, so my choice, had I wanted to go further than what I was allowed to do, within the limitations of collective responsibility, would have been to resign. That was my choice—to resign and make a small splash, which might have dampened my shoes but would not have moved drugs policy far at all, or to stick with it and make some small improvements. I chose to stick with it, and we made some small improvements, which were worthy.

I am saying to the House today—to the Government, to my own party and to anyone else—that we did far too little. We have not dented the huge apparatus that supplies drugs, not only to our country but across the world.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I am the secretary of the all-party parliamentary drug misuse group.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the downgrading of cannabis and the U-turn or about-turn when the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) became Prime Minister, but the figures speak for themselves. NHS treatment for cannabis use doubled in the three years after the downgrading, drugs deaths surged by 15% the following year and the number of drugs dealers prosecuted for dealing cannabis in the three years afterwards fell by 29%. Does he not understand that he was sending completely the wrong messages to young people about drug use?

[Mr Ainsworth]

No, I do not agree, and those figures will not bear scrutiny. That is what we ought to do—scrutinise what the hon. Gentleman has just said. We ought to bring some reason to bear, rather than make simple allegations and claims.

Everyone said that, when we reclassified, cannabis use would go through the roof. There is utterly and absolutely no evidence for that—quite the reverse. Cannabis use, according to all the evidence that I have seen and heard—others are far bigger experts than I am—went down in that period. The reclassification had no impact. When we reclassified cannabis back to class B, it had no impact again. All the scaremongering about the reclassification of cannabis was uncalled for and proved to be incorrect.

Cocaine use, however, has gone up, because that has been the fashionable drug in recent years—it is a darn sight more dangerous than cannabis. Cocaine use has gone up, but we never reclassified cocaine. If the hon. Gentleman is positing an argument for reclassification making an ounce of difference to the levels of use, he is in real trouble.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ainsworth]

I intend to move on to what I am proposing shortly and knock down some of the things that have been said that are not true.

During the changes that we made in 2002, a young and newly-elected Conservative Member was a member of the Home Affairs Committee—he is now the Prime Minister. He went along not only with all the changes that we made, but with the Committee’s report, which asked the Government to go further in two particular areas: to reclassify ecstasy from class A to class B, which the Government would not do; and, more important, to have a full debate on the alternatives to prohibition. He supported and advocated that, and he was right to do so. We did not go along with that, nor have the current Government. They have condemned it and ruled it out in the new drugs strategy issued last week. When the right hon. Gentleman became leader of the Conservative party, he felt, for reasons best known to himself, that he needed to recant and said that he had been wrong to support that policy. That shines a light on exactly what the problem is.

This morning, the leader of my party said that what I was saying was not Labour party policy and that he did not agree with me. I am not surprised in the slightest and I expected nothing other that that. The Minister will stand later and say that the proposal is irresponsible, that it is not Government policy and that they will set their faces against it. When the Prime Minister was being commendably brave as an ambitious young Member, however, he believed in it, and I believe that he still does but knows that it would be enormously difficult to take that position. He would not hold the right wing of his party, with which, heaven knows, he has enough trouble, in place. That is why he will not support what he knows to be common sense, and that is the tragedy of drug policy in this country.

The new drugs strategy contains many of the phrases that were used in my refresh of policy in 2002: “overarching strategies”; “joining up the bits”; “let’s get cleverer”; let’s get smarter”; “let’s work with others”, and “let’s work with others abroad.” All those phrases are in the new strategy, yet the Government are trying to claim that it is a huge, new drugs policy, which will have an impact. It is not. Overwhelmingly, it is a continuation of what went before. There is one significant difference: the Government are retreating from the notion of harm minimisation, the only thing that made the difference. They claim that harm minimisation is fine, but that we have to go further and put the need to cure people of their addictions at the forefront of all our thinking. Who would not want to do that? Who on earth thinks that curing people’s addictions is not a good idea? I think that it is a fantastic idea. However, we should not be naive. It will work in some instances, but not in others. It will work at some points in people’s lives, but not at others. The opportunities, where they exist, to move people through drug addiction to becoming drug free ought to be seized and properly funded.

When we talk about an emphasis on cure, we should be mindful that rehabilitation is massively expensive. The Government are not about to start funding mass rehabilitation and are in fact cutting drug treatment programmes. There will be reductions in drug treatment budgets in every constituency the length and breadth of the country. The budget for drug treatment in Coventry and Warwickshire is currently £11 million, but the new budget will be £8 million, which is a huge cut. If we start taking money for rehabilitation out of that £8 million, the funding for many other treatments will be hugely reduced. I have a real fear about that, because we are about to enter a period when unemployment will rise, police numbers will decrease and drug treatment will be slashed, which will result in a massive increase in acquisitive crime. I fear that that is what our country is about to face.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a strong case for harm minimisation, as if it were the solution to the problem, but does he not accept that the figures show that 95,000 people in the UK have been on a methadone script for more than a year? Of those 95,000, 25% were still on methadone four years later. I do not know about him, but I am ambitious for people and do not want to see so many living in state-induced dependency. Does he accept that that maintenance is not providing the kind of solution that we are looking for?

[Mr Ainsworth]

I, too, am ambitious for people, and if anyone can be cured of an addiction, I want them to be cured of it. I do not want us to leave one person whom we can get off opiates dependent on them, but, equally, I am not naive. I do not believe that any Government, never mind a Conservative-led coalition Government, will fund the levels of drug treatment that provide the rehabilitation episodes that are needed to get the number of people that the hon. Gentleman talks about off their habit.

Therefore, the choice that we face is to keep those people safe until such time as they can make progress, or to hand them back to the criminal market, put them back into the hands of the dealers, let the guy on the street corner supply them with diamorphine, encourage them to go back to prostitution or to start robbing their mates and neighbours. That is the stark choice . My Government chose to expand drug treatment hugely. We did it not for the benefit of the drug users themselves but for the benefit of the entire community.

[Mr Ainsworth]

We should listen to the experts. I went to see the person who runs the drug treatment facilities for Coventry and Warwickshire in Coventry city centre a few weeks ago, in preparation for this debate. He said that, to some degree—and if they do not go too far—we ought to look at the Government’s policy, because perhaps in some instances we have been complacent about moving people through. We were so pleased with ourselves for stabilising people, getting them safe and keeping them out of crime, but perhaps we should have been more assiduous in trying to cure them of their addiction. I am not opposed to trying everything to cure people of their addiction.

Let me say what I am and what I am not advocating. I am simply saying this, and no more: it is about time we had a debate in this country, and provoked one internationally, about whether the war on drugs can succeed, or whether we ought to be prepared, in a rational way, to examine the alternatives. We ought to look at continuing the current prohibitions, we ought to look at the alternatives, we ought to examine the issue properly, rationally and sensibly. We ought to be prepared to have that debate.

We ought to look at whether we should reintroduce heroin prescriptions as one of the potential treatments for heroin addicts in this country. We used to do that in the 1960s, but we stopped doing it. People, including famous and gifted people, lived with their heroin addiction and continued to make a contribution to our society, but we stopped that under international pressure. We are now part of the international pressure that stops others from moving.

Ten years ago, Portugal decriminalised small amounts of drugs. People do not go to Portugal to get zonked; there is not a huge problem. I understand that there is a huge financial problem in Portugal, but there is not a huge drug problem. People go to Portugal to play golf and to enjoy the sun. Portugal is still there. It is fine, it has saved a fortune, its HIV rates have crashed through the floor, the sky has not fallen in. We have been part of the international pressure to stop that country from doing what it has done.

Portugal has been successful to such a degree that the sitting Prime Minister at the last general election held up his drug liberalisation programme as a reason for his re-election. Would it not be amazing if the Prime Minister of this country could stand in front of the British public and say, “Vote for me because I have liberalised drug policy and it has made a huge difference,” instead of shrinking from what were his clearly held beliefs as he climbed the ladder and became leader of the Conservative party? The war on drugs is not working.

I want the Minister to answer only one question. I know that he will disagree with me today—he has to; he would not be allowed to be the Minister if he were to agree with me—but I want to ask him this one question. I flagged it up on the media this morning, so he should not be surprised by it. He has a new drugs strategy, which he says is different. He says that it will work, that it will make a difference. How many years will he give his new strategy to make a significant difference?

If in two years’ time we have not made any progress, will he agree to the kind of debate and policy shift that I am advocating? Do we have to wait five years, or 50 years? We have been at this, unsuccessfully, for 50 years. We have built international criminal organisations that dwarf the mafia that arose out of prohibition in America. In America, good people with good intentions banned alcohol for 13 years. They created Al Capone and Lucky Luciano and, in the end, they caused the St Valentine’s day massacre. After 13 years, they did not give in—they came to their senses and removed prohibition.

If we do not start looking at alternatives to prohibition, we will continue to have the Pablo Escobars and General Noriegas of this world. Sher Mohammed Akhundzada in Helmand province, the Taliban, the corruption of the Afghan Government and the funding of the Afghan insurgency will continue. If we move production from Afghanistan, it will simply go elsewhere, as it moved from the golden triangle to Afghanistan some years ago. If we spray the entire forest in Colombia and destroy the foliage so that coca cannot be grown, production will move to Bolivia, Peru and, potentially, to Africa. When? That is my only question to the Minister.

I am not advocating a big bang. I do not believe that any political party would dare to propose some huge, instant change in this regard. People are too frightened, and rightly so, by the size of the problem. I am proposing debate, incremental change, pilots and rational thought. I am proposing that the Government do not do what is in their Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which I believe includes a measure to remove the requirement to have scientists on the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. How stupid is that? In a modern society, we are about to say that we do not need scientists on the advisory council. Perhaps we should legislate to have witch doctors on it. That is about as silly a thing as I have heard for some long time.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned science, and I saw Professor Nutt on television today, coming to his aid and supporting his proposition. I have listened to his reasoned speech, in which he has set out why he thinks this is important, but he has not mentioned anybody involved in drug treatment who supports his suggestion. Which groups advocate the legalisation of heroin and cocaine?

[Mr Ainsworth]

The hon. Gentleman needs to listen to what I am saying. I am not advocating kiosks on street corners where young people can buy heroin, for heaven’s sake. I am a parent and a grandparent, and I want to make my children and my grandchildren safer. I do not want them to experiment with dangerous drugs. [Interruption.] I have said that it is about time that we had a reasonable debate, but the hon. Gentleman cannot help this yah-boo nonsense. He has asked a question and I will give him an answer—and after today we will give him a load more as well, because there are lots of them.

I am advocating the replacement of the dealer, who has a ready market with addicts putting money in his pocket and who is, in his totally and utterly irresponsible way, prepared to sell heroin to children and anybody else to extend his market, to the extent that we can do so—perfection does not exist—with a doctor. I want to get people into clinics and give them prescriptions and remove the dealer’s market, thereby removing at least some dealers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

I am very much aware of it. I did a scientific analysis some eight years ago of what was happening in drug production in four countries—Switzerland, Sweden, Britain and the Netherlands. It was an attempt to examine the effects and the level of drug abuse. On one point I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East: the level of drug use in Holland is lower than it is here. Sweden, from a very low base, had the biggest increase. The United Kingdom came out worst, and it remains the worst in all outcomes. Switzerland has tried a number of brave experiments, particularly in the way of prescribing heroin. That has been a great success as a way of reducing crime.

However, I want to mention our greatest failure internationally, and the one I feel despair about. I have addressed the Commonwealth of Independent States, the former communist bodies. The worst thing that has happened internationally on drugs concerns them, because when the Berlin wall fell, none of the communist countries had a drug problem; many had alcohol problems, but none had a drug problem. They came to us and said, “You in the west have had this problem for a long time. You guys know about it. What do we do? How do we deal with drugs?”

But instead of getting a formula in which we said, “Well, this has worked,” those countries got back a babble of conflicting views from all parts of Europe. They repeated our remedies and inherited our problems. Those states have 25 million addicts now. If we had adopted a model that worked 10 or 25 years ago, we could have handed it on. I believe that such a model exists in its best state in Portugal now.

I urge all hon. Members to approach the matter with an open mind. I have memories of previous debates of this kind, and in particular of David Mellor, in about 1990, announcing that we could be absolutely certain of one thing—that heroin use had peaked. We had about 90,000 addicts then. When I spoke on the subject about 18 months ago, the number was 280,000, and it is now 320,000.

I recall another debate—we used to have a three-hour debate on Friday mornings—when the Government and Opposition spokesmen had to leave the Chamber because they both needed a fix of the addictive drug to which they were enslaved; they both needed to go out and smoke. I am sure that later in the evening they would wander off to any of the 16 bars in this place, decrying young people’s use of drugs—with a cigarette in one hand, a glass of whisky in the other, and a couple of paracetamol in their top pockets for the headache that they were going to get the next morning.

We behave with hypocrisy and incompetence on drugs. I do not want to go into the wasted years that we have had, but can we just say where the United Kingdom is now, and put aside tabloid pressure? Let us forget about what people say, and the abuse that my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East will get, and say we know what is right, and what works, and we know that the policies that we have pursued for 39 years have given us the worst drug problems and the worst outcomes in Europe.

We had tough policies in ’71. They did not work, so we had even tougher policies—and they did not work, so we went on again to still tougher policies. There were great plaudits for all the politicians putting them through. Each time, our problems went up and up. That has not happened in Portugal. In the Netherlands, there is some kind of control. The glamour has been taken away. The joy of forbidden fruit has been taken out of using cannabis. People can go to a cannabis café and have a cannabis cake with their grandmother. Where is the fun in that? Part of the attraction, here, is the illegality of drugs. Part of the problem, and the reason why people die here, is the illegality of drugs.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East mentioned that people can, if they get control of their heroin and know its quality and strength, become heroin addicts and live into their nineties. Many people have. There are homes in the Netherlands for geriatrics who are heroin addicts. They can be maintained. People here who are unfortunate enough to be addicted must take their heroin from illegal sources, from those who produce products that may well be toxic or contaminated. They take them in unhygienic surroundings in a dark alley. That is why prohibition is killing people.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman paints a very rosy picture of people living a long and happy life on heroin. One of my constituents spent 30 years on methadone and has now been drug-free for two years. He has just celebrated his second drug-free birthday. He said he has wasted his life. The difference between his life on methadone and his life drug-free is like being born again. He is one of the strongest advocates of tackling the situation in which we park people on methadone for years on end, rather than, through rehabilitation, tackling the reason why they use drugs in the first place.

[Paul Flynn]

The hon. Gentleman is simplifying the problem. No one is in favour of people going on methadone for prolonged periods, but it does happen, and often it is preferable to the alternative. The point that the hon. Gentleman seems to miss is that a rich heroin addict can live almost without risk. We know of famous people—I shall not mention any names—who were heroin addicts all their lives and died in their beds at an advanced age. At the moment it is poor addicts who suffer, and who are in the position I described—exposed to street dealers and contaminated heroin.

I remember vividly, from the time of the 2002 Home Office report—I was kindly mentioned in the introduction—working with David Cameron, and attending the meetings. I remember his sharp questioning of a man called Fulton Gillespie, whose son had been killed by injecting heroin contaminated with talcum powder.

I had a hope that the generation now in government and opposition—I am sure that most members of the Cabinet and shadow Cabinet used illegal drugs in their university careers—would at least have the courage to see that the present policies are not working, and can never work. I hope that they go through the same realisation that my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East has courageously undergone, and conclude that we have to have another policy. We should be able to agree on the extent of the failure.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned prisons, and one of his hon. Friends told me that he went to a prison where a prisoner explained that he had toothache and wanted an aspirin, but would have to wait until the next day to see a doctor for that aspirin. He also said that he could go out of his cell and obtain heroin, marijuana or cocaine within five minutes.

How many of our prisons are drug free? None. No prison in the country is drug free. If we cannot keep drugs out of prisons with 30-foot walls, what chance do we have of implementing a policy of prohibition to keep drugs out of schools and clubs?

[Andrew Griffiths]

We agree on that point, but the matter is much worse. The number of methadone interventions—prescriptions—to prisoners has more than doubled in just over three years. The problem is not just illegal drugs in prison; methadone is being prescribed more and more to keep prisoners quiet.

[Paul Flynn]

There seems to be a concentration on methadone as a solution. It is not. It is part of the problem. There is no way round it, except the nonsense of putting addicts in prison for their addiction. Nothing could be more counter-productive or a larger waste of money. I believe that that is in the convention that will be introduced next year. There is a universal view that we must move away from using the criminal justice system for treating addiction, and use health outcomes and treatment.

As sensible people, we must recognise the enormity of our continued failure, and get politicians of all parties together—the hon. Gentleman is secretary of the all-party group on drug misuse, and I welcome that—to recognise the courage of my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East and how he has taken on interviews today. That will arouse the realisation, throughout the country and among all parties, that the only way of ensuring that we are not top of the league of drug deaths, drug crime and the other drug problems on this continent of ours is to learn from other people—including lessons from the Netherlands, and particularly the recent lessons from Portugal.

There is a better way. There is certainly no way practised by any country in the world that is worse than what parties on both sides have done for the past 40 years in the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak in the debate, Mr Walker.

It was not my intention to speak today, predominantly because I was due to go back to my constituency this evening, where I was to present awards to 250 drug addicts and recovering drug addicts and their families at an event run by the Burton addiction centre, which I am lucky to have in my constituency. I received a call this morning from one of my constituents, a young man called Jamie, who for many years had been a prolific user of heroin and many different substances. He has been drug free for three years because we in Burton are lucky to have an abstinence-based programme at the Burton addiction centre that aims to help change people’s lives in a way similar to the scheme mentioned by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). People’s lives have been changed.

Jamie rang me to say that he had heard on the news what is being advocated by the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth). He told me to ask him this: on the day that drugs are legalised, will he arrange for the police van to arrive at Jamie’s house, put on the cuffs and take him to prison? If that does not happen, Jamie guarantees that he will be dead in six months. He said that not as a knee-jerk reaction, but as someone who has experienced the devastating impact of heroin abuse, and has had the ability, the support and the power to get himself clean and to get his life back.

[Mr Ainsworth]

Neither I nor anyone else proposes to force the hon. Gentleman’s constituent to start taking drugs again. As he believes in an abstinence-based policy—the new Government’s policy—I will ask him the question that I asked the Minister. How many years will he give the policy to make a difference? We are at the end of 2010 and he and I might be here in a couple of years’ time. How many years will he give the policy to make a real difference?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths]

The policy is making a real difference in my constituency now. If the right hon. Gentleman comes to see this evening the 250 people in my constituency who, along with their families, have gone through an abstinence-based programme, he will see for himself that it works. It changes lives; it changes communities. He says flippantly that he will not force anyone to take drugs. That fundamentally shows that he does not understand addiction. The issue is not that someone would be forced to take drugs, but that they would be freely available. Every time someone went into the town centre, they would be able, if they were feeling down, to go to their chemist or doctor and get a hit of heroin or cocaine. Drugs would be much more readily available. The right hon. Gentleman does not understand that one of the major problems for addicts is removing themselves from the circle of friends, from the community, that leads to their drug use. All too often, people fall into drug use because friends, colleagues or associates are using drugs. Because of that, they get hooked; they get addicted.

Of course the right hon. Gentleman is well intentioned. I have always known him to be a thoughtful and considered person, but in advocating either licensing or prescription, presumably on the NHS, for heroin and cocaine, he fails to understand addiction and the way in which it works.

Let me read out an e-mail that I received this morning from a young lady who is a recovering addict. She says:

“Addiction is extreme. Doing everything to the extreme. Getting out of it and constantly chasing that buzz. Addicts don’t just use one drug, they use many drugs and alcohol to get out of it. One bag of heroin was never enough. Prescribe me one bag and I would want two. Give me two and I want three.”

When we hear from addicts and see the situation in which they find themselves, we can understand their concern. It is not easy to tackle an addiction. We recognise that that is one of the most difficult things that people can do. But when it comes to the idea that making drugs more accessible to people will in some way solve the problem, the addicts I talk to regularly just do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I urge him to come and talk to the all-party drugs misuse group. We will give him a good hearing. We regularly hear from dozens of very committed people who are involved in real drug treatment. Some advocate maintenance and some advocate abstinence programmes, but they are all actively involved in, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion says, trying to give people back their lives.

The right hon. Gentleman prays in aid the Transform organisation. That is a think-tank and a lobby group, but it does not help people overcome addiction. It does research and it talks to people, but it does not help people, on a day-to-day basis, deal with the effects of addiction. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to talk to people who are working with addicts day in, day out, to understand their very real concerns.

I am not going to hide away. I went on television today and said that I thought the right hon. Gentleman was not just wrong, but reckless and dangerous, because the message that is being sent out that drug use is acceptable in some way is simply wrong.

[Mike Weatherley]

Surely one of the reasons why we are having this debate is to have a frank and varied discussion. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need an independent review? We all agree that drugs are harmful and we would like to reduce their use in society. In my constituency, 70% of all crime is related to drug use. We need to stamp that out. I made the point earlier that the benefits culture perpetuates drug use. Many people are trapped in such a situation. Surely an independent review of the best way to make progress cannot be objected to; it must be a good thing.

[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend is well intentioned. I do not know whether he thinks that no one considers these things. I do not know whether he thinks that despite the thousands of people involved and the millions—indeed, billions—of pounds that are spent on trying to find a solution to the drug addiction problem in our country, someone has not at some stage sat down and considered whether legalisation would be a good idea, but I can assure him that they have. I do not want to send a message to young people that drug taking is an okay thing to do. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion can tut, but in my constituency I have seen families who have been devastated by drug deaths. I have seen people young and old who are living with addiction. I am sure that the hon. Lady has, too.

[Caroline Lucas]

I apologise for tutting, but the reason why I was tutting is that I do not think that any hon. Member is suggesting that we want to give a message that drugs are okay. One of the things that hinder the debate is attributing to one another positions that we do not actually espouse. We all start from the point of saying that drugs are causing harm in society. The question is this: how do we best reduce that harm? It is fairer to accept that all of us are driving towards that aim.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I absolutely accept that the hon. Lady is well intentioned, but the right hon. Member for Coventry North East this morning advocated licensing or prescription of heroin and cocaine. What does a parent say when they see a senior politician saying, “We should license these drugs”? The nuances of the argument about a debate and a discussion are lost on young people, who may this very weekend be thinking about whether to try drugs for the first time.

[Caroline Lucas]

What confuses young people is mixed messages given out by Governments, people obviously being hypocritical about drug use and so on. We should not underestimate young people’s ability to understand this debate, and they will have a much better chance of understanding it if we are all straight with one another, rather than hiding behind positions that none of us is really espousing.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I could not agree with the hon. Lady more. We talk about mixed messages. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the assertions that I made about the impact of downgrading cannabis. I point him to Hansard for 1 April 2009 and the answer to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), with the reference number 267674. It shows that the number of patients treated by the NHS for cannabis use in 2004-05 was 13,408 and that three years later, that had increased to 26,287.

I think that we need to move on and talk about the impact of the approach that the right hon. Gentleman advocates. He advocates prescription for heroin or for cocaine. Of course there is already the prescription of methadone and similar heroin substitutes, and I think that we all accept that that has been a complete failure. The aims were good, and I recognise the need to minimise harm and stabilise people. That is very important, which is why it remains a key part of the drugs strategy as outlined by my hon. Friend the Minister. However, the public think that our drugs strategy should be fundamentally about getting people free from drugs—getting them off their addiction. We are misleading the public when we say that it is okay to take drugs. It is true that, as was said, some people live a long life as a heroin addict. Some people live for 20 or 30 years on methadone, as I said was the case with my constituent. However, that is not something that I would want for a member of my family or for a friend or colleague. Stabilisation—harm minimisation—should have an impact in the short-term, but we all have to be more ambitious about moving to recovery thereafter.

[Mr Ainsworth]

If a child, grandchild or relative of mine had a serious addiction and was in a place where rehab would help, I would pay for it—I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. He should not think that I am naive or devoid of life experience—I am not. However, the Government will not pay for rehab on the scale necessary.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I do not want to steal the Minister’s thunder, but I think he will outline how payment by results and changing the culture of how we treat drugs and drug rehabilitation can deliver the outcome and be more cost effective. I invite the right hon. Gentleman to visit the Burton addiction centre in my constituency, where the programme is not only cost-effective, but so cost-effective that GPs pay for beds because they see the impact it has on difficult patients, who were in a revolving door, going in and out of their surgery. A proper abstinence-based rehab programme, with support for both them and their families, makes a massive difference to GPs’ health budgets. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he should come and see some of these projects before he dismisses them.

[Mr Ainsworth]

I was drugs Minster for two years.

[Andrew Griffiths]

It is true that the right hon. Gentleman was drugs Minister for a number of years, and I understand that the drug problem increased in every one of them.

[Tom Brake]

Earlier, the hon. Gentleman said that all the Transform organisation did was research. Does he feel that there is already sufficient evidence on the effectiveness of abstinence programmes versus substitution programmes, or prohibition versus the licensing scheme that the right hon. Gentleman proposed?

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. It is true that we do not yet have enough evidence on the success of abstinence-based programmes, which is why I am encouraged that the Minister is going for a pilot project in the drugs strategy. I am evangelical on the benefits that proper rehab in an abstinence-based programme can have, but we need to be able to prove that it works. I accept that. Not only am I confident, but the providers and the clients who have been through these programmes are confident that this is a radical change to the drugs strategy and the way we treat drugs. The simple fact is that I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we cannot continue along the path on which the Labour Government set us.

Last year we spent £235 million on methadone—that is just on the drug, not the prescription or related services—to treat 154,000 methadone users. That £235 million is the equivalent of spending £500 a minute on methadone. It would pay for 11,000 NHS nurses. That puts into perspective not only the costs to society in crime and anti-social behaviour, but the costs in numbers of a purely maintenance-based programme that is simply failing. I say that it is failing because 95,000 of those 154,000 people who received a methadone script last year were still on the script a year later, and more than 25% of them would have been on methadone for four years. The idea that a maintenance programme is a short-term thing that gets people drug free is not correct. It is clearly not working, which is why we need this fundamental shift in our approach to drugs.

I agree that we have lost the war on drugs to date, but I do not think it is inevitable that we have to raise the white flag and accept that heroin and cocaine will be prescribed or sold in our communities. I say that because those dealing with these things on the ground have warmly welcomed the different approach laid out by the Minister. As I said in my all-party group, a number of very cynical and concerned charities, voluntary groups and organisations involved at the sharp end of dealing with addiction have warmly welcomed the change in approach. They recognise that we cannot continue with the current failed policy.

We win the war on drugs by improving rehab, giving people a recovery-based programme and being optimistic and bold about what we can help them deliver. It is about much more than rehab. It is about helping people deal with the chaotic lives they lead as drug users. It is about ensuring that people have the support of their family, and that their family recognise and understand the process, and that they have access to good health care, a safe home and opportunities. We must ensure that we do not simply expect people to go into the same community, where they had been shooting up for the previous 10 years, after a four-week detox programme, and think that they have their lives back together. It is about ensuing that we give them an opportunity to get back into work, have work experience or work in the community. All those things are very important.

I will draw my contribution to a close, but I wish to say that I do not believe for one moment that the solution to our drug problem is the one advocated by the right hon. Gentleman. I do not want to see prescriptions for heroin or cocaine issued in my constituency, and I know that many hon. Members feel exactly the same. We have a blueprint in the Government’s drugs strategy for fixing the mistakes made by previous Administrations, and many of us are completely behind what the Minister is trying to do.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Walker. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) on securing the debate. I note his great success in getting his views and comments widely trailed in the media. Despite the fact that it is the Thursday before Christmas and we are on a one-line Whip in the House, the debate this afternoon has had a great deal of attention.

All Members know from our work in our constituencies that drugs cause misery to people and thwart the opportunities and life chances of not only the individual, but family members. They sometimes blight whole communities. However, when looking at drugs in the UK, it is important to remember that we have had some successes. For example, the coalition Government’s strategy refers to the fall of a third in the last decade in young people’s rates of drug use. The importation of cocaine has also been disrupted.

As my right hon. Friend said, there has been a great deal of investment in treatment for people with drug problems. He is a very distinguished Member, with, as he explained, experience as a drugs Minister. It is right that we should all welcome the opportunity for a considered and mature debate on drugs policy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) spoke with great passion and knowledge about his experience in European countries. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) talked about her interesting experience looking at the RIOTT trials, and about what we can learn from them. She also addressed the matter of tackling inequality when thinking through drugs policy.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East has set out his approach, but it is not one with which the Opposition agree. There have been headlines and a great deal of newspaper copy today, but the topic has been reported in far too simplistic a way to deal with the complexities of the drugs problem we face. The issue is not straightforward; there are many different—and respected—views on the way forward for drugs policy in this country.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), the Leader of the Opposition, commented today:

“I am all in favour of fresh thinking on drugs. I don’t agree with him”—

referring to my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East—

“on decriminalisation of drugs. I worry about the effects on young people, the message we would be sending out.”

That is an interesting point. We do need to have fresh thinking, and we need to keep the area under constant review.

This debate is timely due to the recent publication of the coalition’s drugs strategy for 2010. We have also had the Second Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill in the House of Commons this week. That includes clauses specific to drugs policy, which I will address later.

The Opposition share the coalition’s broad approach to drugs strategy, building on the pillars of preventing drug-taking, disrupting supply, strengthening enforcement and promoting treatment. There is a lot on which we can agree. However, the strategy marks a departure, from the previous focus on reducing the harm caused by drugs to a focus on recovery as the most effective route out of dependency. We want to look at that further and examine what that would mean.

It is important to note that the Home Secretary, in her foreword to the drugs strategy, states that during consultation the Government looked at the issue of liberalisation and decriminalisation, but decided that that was not the answer—that it fails to recognise the complexity of the problem and gives insufficient regard to the harms that drugs pose.

I want to explore the drugs strategy a little further and test some of its statements against the reality of the current policies being put forward by the coalition Government in areas such as health, education, benefits and criminal justice. The backdrop to the strategy was the announcement of the comprehensive spending review and the budgets that will be available to the pubic sector over the next few years. I focus particularly on the budget allocations to the police, local authorities, the NHS and the education sectors. They all have a very important role to play in drugs policy.

In line with the coalition’s general thinking, the strategy features a move away from a top-down to a local decision-making approach—the localism agenda. I hope the Minister can reassure me and other hon. Members that good practice, which does exist around the country now, will continue to be spread and that we will not see only pockets of good practice, with the rest of the country left to mediocre practices. I hope the Minister can reassure me about that, based on this new local approach.

There are three areas on which I want to comment. There is the issue of reducing demand. We know from research that people from backgrounds in which they face problems, such as homelessness, unemployment or exclusion from school, are more likely to take drugs.

There are policies in the strategy that include a great deal about early intervention and getting to those groups early on to stop them from taking up drugs. There is mention, for instance, of the 4,200 additional health visitors that the coalition Government will have in place by 2015. That is all well and good, but I am concerned about how we are to train those additional health visitors, and also about where the money is to come from for those additional professionals.

The situation is the same with Sure Start. The strategy mentions Sure Start and the coalition Government recognise the important role that Sure Start and children’s centres play. We all know that the funding of the 3,500 that were opened under the previous Labour Government will now go to local authorities and will no longer be ring-fenced. As local authorities are under huge pressures to balance their budgets, I ask the Minister to look carefully at whether the role of Sure Start and children’s centres will be as effective as the strategy sets out, with reduced resources.

There is also mention of the national programmes of support for families with multiple problems. Again, I hope that that money will be protected. Pilots of those programmes are showing very good results. Will the Minister respond by saying how he will secure the resources to ensure that that category of early-intervention project is as effective as it can be?

I want to mention education. All of us recognise how important drugs education is. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East mentioned FRANK, which he was pleased to hear was still going. That is right, and most people accept that the initiative has been a success. However, drugs education has to be more than just a website. We know the important role that schools play in getting messages across to young people. I am concerned about the changes that we are seeing in the education sector—the move to a narrower academic approach in schools, moving away from the Department of Children, Schools and Families’ approach, which was about Every Child Matters and championing the well-being agenda. That seems to have been sidelined within schools with the new approach of the Secretary of State.

Will the Minister reassure me that drugs education will remain an important subject in schools? I was deeply disappointed that at the very end of the previous Parliament, the Conservative party blocked personal social and health education from becoming a statutory, compulsory subject in schools. PSHE is a good vehicle for ensuring that drugs education is present and effective in the educational setting.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), a former drugs Minister and schools Minister, made it clear to me that if teachers are expected to provide good drugs education, they need training, resources and the use of external experts to come and talk to children and young people. That all takes resources and I am concerned that those may not be available to schools and head teachers.

I wanted to pick up one other point on education, which is in the section of the strategy dealing with reducing demand, and encouraging young people to stay in education and obtain qualifications to help them get employment. There is one section that deals with educational opportunities and talks about supporting children and young people from disadvantaged backgrounds to stay in education. I read that and thought it did not fit well with the coalition Government’s current policy to remove educational maintenance allowances. That has a direct effect on some of the disadvantaged communities, where drugs have been a problem. As a number of hon. Members have already said, the removal of the EMA is a real problem when trying to encourage young people to stay on up to 18.

I move on to restricting the supply of drugs. The strategy is building on the good work over the past few years and relies on a number of factors. One is around good neighbourhood policing, and of course we have seen additional police numbers over the past 13 years. We now face a 20% cut to police budgets. PCSOs, who often provide an effective presence on the streets, will have their numbers cut. Again, I seek reassurance from the Minister about how the strategy will deliver, given that reduction in resources. Under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which had its Second Reading earlier this week, police and crime commissioners are to set out the strategic direction for police forces. When the Bill comes to its Committee stage, we will want to consider the possible conflict between reduced resources and the fact that police and crime commissioners will probably want to play a part, encouraging the police to join them in partnership working. It will be difficult for police commissioners to square that circle of not having the resources needed to provide effective partnership working.

Legal highs are mentioned in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. The Minister knows that there is common cause on tackling legal highs, as there have been a number of debates on the subject over the previous few months. There is common cause not only because it is the right thing to do; the previous Government began the journey, and the present Government are continuing on a similar line. What is proposed in the Bill will prevent manufacturers from tweaking compounds to stay ahead of any ban.

The chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs says that the Bill permits a systematic approach, which is to be welcomed. Clause 149 of the Bill allows the Secretary of State to introduce temporary class drugs orders to deal with the problem of legal highs. Overall, we support the proposal, but we shall want to examine it further in Committee. The matter was raised in a previous debate, but will the Minister give some indication of the cost of legal highs’ being banned for up to 12 months?

I turn to the question of building recovery in communities, the individual tailored approach set out in the document. Although it is recognised as important, I hope that there will be true recognition of the need for different approaches, and that they will be deemed equally valid. For some people, moving on to methadone and remaining stable and able to function as members of the community may be seen as a positive result, whereas for others being entirely drug free will be the right goal.

I do not agree with the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). He seemed to imply that we did not need to have a range of treatments, although he spoke passionately about the Nelson Trust and the excellent work that it does. The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) spoke about the Burton addiction centre, and told us about Jamie’s view of the situation. However, I believe that we need a plurality of approaches. We cannot have a one-size-fits-all approach for something as complex as dealing with drug treatment. Martin Barnes, the chief executive of DrugScope, said:

“The aspiration for treatment and recovery is to be applauded, but the challenge will be ensuring that high level ambition is delivered and sustained locally, not least at a time of policy change, uncertainty and spending cuts.”

The massive reorganisation of the NHS means that PCTs will be going and that GPs will hold 80% of the NHS budget. Along with the creation of the national public health service, and local authorities taking on the public health role, the way in which much of the public sector is to operate will be a constantly moving feast. I understand that public health money is to be ring-fenced, but it is unclear exactly how much money local authorities will have for dealing with public health matters in their areas. I believe that directors of public health will commission services locally. The services will be competitively tendered and rewarded, and there will be transparency about the performance of any drug treatments contracted for.

We heard earlier in the debate about payment by results. I hope that we will be able to explore that question further, and to discover how the pilots, which will be created by 2011, will work. We need more detail about how they are to be judged successful. Will it be if people become drug free, or if they are merely stable and able to function on methadone? We need that information.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Lady raises a point that is crucial to the success of payment by results. The danger is that certain providers will cherry-pick the easy-to-cure addicts, and that the more difficult and complex cases will be abandoned. Does she agree that we need to ensure that providers that deal with the toughest cases should be properly rewarded?

[Diana Johnson]

We will want to look carefully at the pilots and exactly how such problems might be dealt with. There must be an imaginative way of dealing with that matter, but we need more detail. The strategy sets out in broad terms what the Government want to do, but the hon. Gentleman is right.

There is also the question of prisons and the criminal justice system. Reference has been made to the proposals in the Green Paper published by the Secretary of State for Justice. It is worth pointing out again that resources and funding will be required. For the approaches that the majority of Members want to see put in place, the important question is where the money and resources will come from.

We also need to deal with the social issues set out in the strategy, such as the reintegration of former drug addicts so that they can obtain housing and employment. Such matters sit uneasily with some of the proposals made by the coalition Government on housing, housing benefit and changes, and that may cause problems for people returning to work. Those matters, too, need to be considered.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East said, clause 150 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill will remove the requirement for certain appointments to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs to have a scientific background. It will remove the requirement set out in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 to include those with wide and recent experience of medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine, pharmacy, the pharmaceutical industry and chemistry, and those with experience of the social problems caused by drug abuse. That approach rather undermines the view of the Minister for Universities and Science, who wrote into the ministerial code the principles for respecting independent advice—including scientific advice, obviously and importantly.

The Liberal Democrats seem to be in some difficulty on this question. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) raised it in an intervention, and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) has tabled EDM 1148. The problem is that the Liberal Democrat 2010 manifesto says that drugs policy should always be based on independent scientific advice, including making the ACMD independent of Government. There will be some discussion in the coalition about how to deal with that, as it seems that that pledge is in danger of bring broken.

I look forward to hearing from the Minister, and particularly to his answer to the question posed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East on evaluating the success of the drugs strategy, and at what point we can have a further debate to consider whether the strategy has worked.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Brokenshire]

I do not intend to have an annual debate on decriminalisation. What I want to see is the emerging evidence. Some of the issues that are raised are sometimes on the basis of supposition and assertion and we will look at any clear evidence that appears. I have been considering this issue for quite some time, as I know that the right hon. Gentleman has, and the comments that I make this afternoon are made not because I am on the Front Bench or the Back Bench, but because they are honestly held views. We are simply not persuaded by the arguments on decriminalisation because we feel that it will increase supply, that it does not take account of the complexities of the drug problem—why people become addicted to drugs in the first place—and that it could make the situation worse. It is a question of looking at the outcomes of our policy.

The pilots around payment by results will be introduced during the course of this year. It would be premature to expect results over the course of 12 months. This is a five-year strategy—or a four-and-a-half-year one now. We will be considering not only the interim outcomes that will be produced by the strategy, but the evidence and the performance that sits alongside the course of the strategy as it is implemented. That is the responsible and sensible thing to do.

The right hon. Gentleman said that drugs have become a party political football, but I believe that they are becoming less of that. I certainly welcome some of the comments that were made this afternoon by the hon. Lady who speaks for the Opposition in relation to the approaches that have been set out in the new drugs strategy. I also appreciate the welcome that has been given to our proposals for dealing with legal highs and the temporary bans that are suggested in the new Police and Social Responsibility Bill. I hope that even this afternoon we are having a measured debate, even if we disagree on some of the themes and issues that are being debated. It is important that we have a sensible and measured debate, even if we may fundamentally disagree on some issues. At least it sets a measured framework around the discussion of some of these themes, which I know is sometimes difficult to achieve in debating what is a sensitive issue that often provokes a number of passions.

I would also take issue with the claim that the approach on enforcement is not capable of working, especially when one considers that the quality of cocaine on the streets is, in some cases, as low as 10% in purity at the moment. That shows some of the very effective work that is taking place, both in-country and also upstream back to places such as Latin America, where cocaine—from coca production—comes from, as I know that the right hon. Member for Coventry North East will know very well. When I visited Latin America at the end of September, I was very impressed by a number of measures that Governments in that region are undertaking, not only to tackle production but to undermine and take very clear action against the organised crime groups that do harm in this country as well as in Latin American countries. That co-operation between countries on enforcement and on sharing intelligence is a very effective way of responding to some of the organised crime groups, including seizing assets and using such powers more effectively to get at what is driving a number of those groups. I know that right hon. and hon. Members will have seen that that has been a theme that we have developed clearly in the drugs strategy itself.

The new drugs strategy is a critical articulation of our reform programme and work to tackle the key causes of societal harm, which include crime, family breakdown and poverty. It sets out a different approach to tackling drug use and dependence. The difference from previous strategies is the focus on the key aim of supporting and enabling those who are dependent on drugs and alcohol to recover fully, and the strategy places responsibility on individuals to seek help to overcome their dependency. Alongside our holistic approach to supporting people to overcome their dependency, we will also be reducing the demand for drugs, by taking an uncompromising approach to crack down on those involved in the drugs trade and shifting power and accountability to local areas to tackle the damage that drugs and alcohol dependence cause to communities.

The strategy sets out two high-level ambitions; first, to reduce illicit and other harmful drug use, and secondly to increase the numbers of individuals recovering from their dependency on drugs and alcohol. I think that we are seeing a changing pattern in what the experts would describe as polysubstance abuse; drugs are not being taken in isolation, but are being taken together. That is why it is important in the treatment framework to ensure that alcohol is part of that treatment platform. These ambitions will be achieved through activity that will encompass three themes: reducing demand; restricting supply, and building recovery.

On reducing demand, we will focus on establishing—

[Andrew Griffiths]

I think that the vast majority of those involved in drug treatment recognise that it will take a while—a period of time—to see meaningful results. We have to change the ethos in relation to recovery and we have to up-skill a work force and teach them the new skills that they will need. I think that the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) is the only person who is looking for a quick fix.

One of the elements that is very important is the role of those people who are in recovery in the community. In my own constituency of Burton, what has been a huge success has been the fact that addicts in recovery are going out and being advocates for not taking drugs. They are going into schools and educating young people, which is far more powerful than the Minister or somebody else standing up and saying, “You shouldn’t take drugs.”

[James Brokenshire]

I agree, and the issue of champions is developed in the strategy; I hope to discuss it shortly. Having visited the Burton addiction centre, I know that the approach of detox, rehabilitation, recovery and resettlement really takes people down that pathway. Equally, using the 12-step programme and then receiving ongoing support from other community and voluntary sector organisations can work in responding to and dealing with those challenges posed when people relapse. It is important to have the support in the community to support those people and deal with those situations.

We will focus on establishing a whole-life approach to prevention and breaking intergenerational paths to dependence. Under this theme, we will focus on early years prevention, particularly for those families with multiple needs, to improve children’s life outcomes. On that point, we are establishing the early intervention grant, to bring together funding for services for the most vulnerable children and young people. It will be worth around £2 billion by the end of the period that we are talking about, including funding for family support, Sure Start and targeted youth support. Further detail about how we expect that money to be spent will be made available shortly. I am sure that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North will be looking out for that information in response to the questions that she posed in her contribution this afternoon.

Alongside early prevention, good-quality drug and alcohol education and information will be provided to young people, families and parents, through schools, as part of their pastoral responsibilities, and through colleges, universities and the “FRANK” service. We will ensure that accurate information and advice is provided on the effects and harms of drugs. We are committed to giving schools greater freedom and flexibility, and we want them to be free to innovate. The Department for Education will conduct an internal review to determine how it can support schools to improve the quality of all personal health and social education teaching, including drug and alcohol education. Intensive support will be provided to vulnerable young people, such as those who are truanting or excluded from school, to stop them becoming involved in drug or alcohol misuse. Drug and alcohol services will be encouraged and supported to make the best use of early interventions, such as parenting and family support projects, to keep families together and aid the recovery of parents who are misusing drugs.

On supply, we will reduce drug-related crime, drug trafficking and organised crime’s involvement in the drugs trade. The new National Crime Agency will lead the fight and with the UK Border Agency it will deliver on the Government’s determination to enhance the security of our borders. We will take action to stop drug traffickers profiting from the drugs trade, through cash seizures and asset forfeitures, money laundering prosecutions, and civil and criminal recovery prosecutions. We will also tackle the trade in drug precursors, which are compounds required to produce drugs, by working with producer countries, the legitimate trade in those compounds and international partners. We will strengthen international partnerships and make best use of the Government’s capabilities overseas to disrupt drug traffickers at source or in transit countries.

The introduction of police and crime commissioners will bring local democratic accountability to policing, ensuring that where drug-related crime is a problem for local people it is tackled as a priority. PCCs will be at the heart of an integrated community response to improve co-ordination between the police, community safety partnerships, communities, drug services and users, and the public. I look forward to the debate during the Committee stage of the Police and Social Responsibility Bill about PCCs, because we believe that they will be an important facet in driving change at the local level. We will also address the issue of so-called legal highs through the development of temporary banning orders, by improving the forensic analytical capability to detect new psychoactive substances and by establishing an effective forensic early warning system.

On recovery, we will focus on building a recovery-led system to enable individuals to become free from dependence on drugs or alcohol and to contribute to society. Although recovery is something that is personal to each individual, the strategy sets out three key principles for recovery: well-being, citizenship, and freedom from dependency. The individual will be placed at the heart of the system, with personalised services providing appropriate support.

We have touched on the issue of payment by results and the models that are being developed around that approach. The detailed information on those models will be provided in the early part of next year, as we are looking to develop those pilot projects. Perhaps I might give some indication of the sorts of outcomes that we are looking to achieve, because I think that it is those outcomes that will telegraph our desire, strategy and approach in this regard. They are very much focused on helping individuals to be free from clinical dependence but they will also look at offending, employment, health and well-being, and the outcomes in those areas. Taking that approach will help us to deliver and I think it will inform the pilot projects as they develop, including the treatment and recovery processes that are involved in the broader system.

The recovery system will also be locally led and owned. Public Health England will be established from April 2012 and a ring-fenced public health budget will be allocated from April 2013. The commissioning and oversight of drug treatment and other recovery services will become a core part of the work of Public Health England. We will look to directors of public health, jointly appointed by Public Health England and local authorities, and located within local authorities, to work with a range of local partners and the health and well-being boards to design and jointly commission services that most meet local needs.

Nationally, we will not prescribe the approach, but will develop and provide an evidence base of what works—the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North and others mentioned that theme. We will create a recovery system that focuses not on getting people into treatment and keeping them there, but getting them off drugs and alcohol for good. Substitute prescribing continues to have a role to play in the treatment of heroin addiction, in stabilising drug use and supporting detoxification. Medically assisted recovery can and does happen. However, for too many of the 150,000 people currently on a substitute prescription, what should be the first step on the journey to recovery is where their journey ends. That must change. We will ensure that all those on a substitute prescription engage in recovery activities and so build upon the 15,000 heroin and crack cocaine users who successfully leave treatment every year, having overcome their dependency.

Recovery can be contagious. People tell us that they are most motivated to start on their individual recovery journey by seeing the progress made by their peers—a point made clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths). Those already on the recovery journey are often best placed to help. Active promotion and support of local mutual aid networks will be key. We will also support communities to build networks of recovery champions to help such individuals at the start of their recovery journey.

People’s housing needs must be met to secure their recovery. We will work with local authorities and housing providers to share best practice and to examine the development of a payment-by-results approach to housing services. The strategy will ensure that the benefits system supports engagement with recovery services. It will offer claimants with a substance dependency a choice between rigorous enforcement of the normal conditions and sanctions if they are not engaged in structured recovery activity, or appropriately tailored conditionality for those who are.

A key contributor to recovery is employment. The strategy sets out how we will equip people in recovery with the confidence and necessary skills to compete in the labour market, encouraging them into a range of employment opportunities through training, work trials and adult apprenticeships. We also plan to introduce a small number of pilots to explore how payment by results can incentivise providers to support recovery. We will work with the pilot areas to co-design the approach. The work on implementing a payment-by-results approach for drugs recovery will help set the future direction for all commissioning of drug services under Public Health England. Such work will complement that being undertaken within the criminal justice system to encourage drug and alcohol misusers into recovery-focused services, including: developing and evaluating options for providing alternative forms of treatment-based accommodation in the community; making liaison and diversion services available at police custody suites and courts by 2014; and diverting vulnerable young people away from the youth justice system where appropriate.

As I have said, evidence is of crucial importance in the field of drugs. The most recent study of the outcomes of drug treatment, the largest area of spend for the strategy, found that drug treatment was cost beneficial. For every £1 spent on treatment, £2.50 was saved, and drug treatment was found to be cost beneficial in 80% of cases. In order to allow us to evaluate the strategy, an evaluation framework is under development. It will aid assessment of the evidence currently underpinning the themes of the drug strategy and identify where new evaluation is required to provide a better assessment of effectiveness and value for money.

During the consultation process, which informed the development of the strategy, some respondents advocated liberalisation and decriminalisation as a way to deal with the problem of drugs, in many ways returning to some of themes we have been debating this afternoon. The Government do not believe that liberalisation and legalisation are the answer, for the many reasons I have highlighted. Such an approach addresses neither the risk factors that lead individuals to misuse drugs or alcohol, nor the misery, cost and lost opportunities that dependence causes individuals, their families and the wider community. By delivering on the national commitments set out in the new drug strategy and enabling local partners to take responsibility at a local level, we will ensure that individuals, families and communities will be stronger and healthier. I very much look forward to continuing the debate in the months ahead.