Immigration Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Solicitor General]

I can give the hon. and learned Gentleman several assurances. First, in assessing the potential discriminatory impact of the clause, the consultation process is an important part of allowing Government to understand precisely what the pressures might be. I also assure him that the standards of fluency will be assessed by the employer. The draft code of practice already contains welcome indicative standards for what various qualifications mean in terms of English fluency. Therefore, within the interview and selection process, there will be systems in place that can be deployed to deflect some of the more specious complaints that might be made. There will be an objective standard rather than a somewhat fluid situation, which I am sure he agrees would be wholly unsatisfactory.

I was going to deal with the basic definition of fluency that will underpin the code of practice. Subsection (8) explains that for the purposes of the Bill,

“a person speaks fluent English if the person has a command of spoken English which is sufficient to enable the effective performance of the person’s role.”

Therefore, it follows that employers will have to satisfy themselves of that criterion among the others that they might deploy in seeking persons to fill vacancies for customer-facing jobs. Subsection (9) clarifies that the requirement to speak fluent English applies to existing workers and new members of staff. Finally, subsection (10) provides that the clause does not apply to those who work for public authorities where work is carried out mainly or wholly outside the United Kingdom.

The code of practice will be an important part of fulfilling our commitment, and it will assist public authorities to comply with every aspect of the new duty. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

Part 7 of the Bill, which comprises clauses 38 to 45, is completely unnecessary and unworkable. It will have negative consequences, whether intended or not; I have some difficulty coming to a conclusion on that one. Perhaps when the Minister speaks later, it will be easier for me to do so. It goes against the wider measures advocated by the Government in the Bill. I will argue those points in turn, but I hope that the Committee will allow common sense to prevail and scrap this part of the Bill.

It is clear that the clauses are unnecessary from the overwhelming lack of evidence from the Government or anyone else that legislation is required. Page 25 of the explanatory notes state that clause 38 is being introduced in order

“to improve the quality of service provided by public authorities, such as the NHS and the police”.

The question is surely why those professionals have not demanded such legislation themselves. I note the submission from the British Medical Association stating that doctors must already pass the international English language testing system to a level set by the General Medical Council or provide evidence to the equivalent. If the Committee does not agree to scrap part 7 of the Bill, will the Minister provide assurances that it will not result in duplication?

The fact is that part 7 in its entirety is merely a duplication of what any employer asks of an applicant: do they have the skills for the role? I challenge any Member here to tell me whether they know of any firefighters turning up to save our lives who have to bring an interpreter with them, or whether any of them have visited a GP and had to explain their symptoms in mime because the GP does not speak English. It simply does not happen. Many of my constituents have terrible problems with the Department for Work and Pensions. I was of the view that that was due in the main to unfair policies, but I had not considered that it is perhaps because the Government employ people who do not speak the language of this country. I have never heard of that, and have never experienced it.

That point is made eloquently by the Royal College of Nursing, which argues against duplicating and undermining the standards being developed by the Nursing and Midwifery Council. That is what it is: an undermining of professional bodies. The fact remains that it is professionals, not Ministers, who have a sophisticated understanding of the level of English required for professional roles. The RCN states:

“We question whether it would be appropriate for ministers to set out standards rather than professional regulators, such as the NMC, as is currently the case.”

Far be it from me to argue for lighter-touch regulation to a Tory Government, but the professionals themselves are safeguarding public services, so it is difficult to envisage a Minister, of whatever party, devising a more sophisticated practice-led assessment of language skills than the professional bodies representing the public sector. The Government are fond of saying that they are fixing the roof while the sun is shining, but here they are putting a leaky tin roof in place of one that functions. Like much of the Bill, regardless of our respective opinions on the rights and wrongs, these provisions simply do not make sense.

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[The Chair]

Order. May I say to Members on the Back Benches that the microphones are very sensitive and are picking up every conversation? I wish to hear only one voice: that of the person speaking.

[Anne McLaughlin]

Thank you, Mr Owen. Discrimination has increased following the trial of the right-to-rent provisions, which has led to people being judged not to look or sound British and to their having increased difficulty finding accommodation. The exact same prejudice will now face those working in the public sector, with people who sound as if they are not from Britain at risk of spurious complaints and victimisation.

Our public sector workers are doing increasingly difficult work, thanks to the Government’s cuts agenda. They are often working with fewer resources and taking on more responsibilities. It does not take a genius to see that this will be stressful for the worker and for those using the service, nor does it take a particularly high IQ to imagine that a disgruntled and stressed-out member of the public may take out their frustration with their situation on a member of staff. If that person is obviously an immigrant, there is a risk that complaints will be brought against them on the grounds of language ability—a complaint that would then have to be investigated. All that does is waste time and money, and increase the stress levels of everyone involved.

I have seen it myself. I have been in a GP surgery where I heard people muttering about the African receptionist—“Could they not get somebody who can speak English?”—when she was speaking perfectly good English, since it was her first language, as it is for many people coming to this country. All that was different about her was the colour of her skin and her accent. Now those racist mutterings can be turned into formal complaints—[Interruption.] Yes, they can. The Government are legitimising that racism instead of tackling it head on. If I am wrong about the intentions, will the Minister tell us if and how he will assess the implementation of this part of the Bill? If he does not intend this part of the Bill to have such consequences, and if he does in fact care but does not believe that my fears are founded, will he at least consider the possibility that I might be right, assess this at a later stage and be willing to review it if necessary?

Part 7 makes it much more difficult for genuine migrants to integrate. It places a ludicrous burden on public agencies at a time when the Government are asking them to tighten their belts. It punishes those who have come here legally and are trying to get on and contribute to this society. Part 7 legitimises the rantings of racists, who will say, “Well, there is obviously a problem or the Government wouldn’t have to have a law to stop it.” In fact, it goes against much of what people believe the Tory party stands for—not me, incidentally, but some people. Part 7 certainly goes against the principles of the Scottish National party, and I urge all Members to reject clauses 38 to 45.

[The Solicitor General]

I would like to say that this debate has created more light than heat, but I am afraid that I cannot do so. With the greatest of respect to the hon. Lady, people such as the receptionist she mentioned will be protected by these provisions, safe in the knowledge that they have fulfilled the criteria set out in the code of practice. They have nothing to fear from people who, through racism or prejudice, may wish to make specious claims. I wholly reject her prospectus.

[Anne McLaughlin]

If the Minister is saying that that receptionist will be protected against spurious complaints, does he mean that nobody is allowed to make a spurious complaint? If so, will it be decided that a complaint is spurious before the receptionist is informed? The stress levels suffered by someone who has had an unlawful complaint made against them are just as bad as they would be if the complaint were founded.

[The Solicitor General]

I am sorry, but the hon. Lady acknowledged that several parts of the public sector have basic proficiency requirements in place. I am afraid that all of us in a public sector role, including everyone in this building and elsewhere, will be the subject of complaints from time to time. Some of those complaints might be wholly justified; others will not be justified. I do not accept for one minute that these provisions will increase the culture of fear that she has colourfully, but wholly erroneously, painted. She is right to say that some parts of the public sector have minimum standards of English for their staff. The provision underpins and widens that duty so that the rest of the public sector is brought into line with those who are leading the way and being proactive.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I thank the Minister for giving way—I appreciate it. Which parts of the public sector employ people who do not speak English in a public-facing role? I have listed all the possibilities, but I have never experienced it, and I have seen no evidence that anyone here has experienced it.

[The Solicitor General]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for sharing her anecdotal experiences, but the Home Office has done pre-consultation modelling, based on the proportion of over-16s in employment in the public administration, education and healthcare sectors according to 2011 census data—those are important, objective, statutory data obtained from the British population. According to that modelling, about 3.6 million employees are within the scope of the proposed duty and about 1.5 million employees in Great Britain, excluding Northern Ireland, are subject to English language standards, so an extra 2.1 million employees will be newly affected by the duty. We anticipate that between a low of 8,500 workers and a high of 25,000 workers may not have the required standards of English fluency. There is objective evidence upon which we can base this policy.

The policy is not designed suddenly to change the game or somehow create a wholly new structure that will alter the balance and change societal attitudes towards people who have a heavy accent. I include myself in that—I know the hon. Lady is as proud of her accent as I am proud of mine. We are seeking to standardise and enhance the position of people who have come to this country to work and who might have a different ethnicity or background. They will be employed under the same objective criteria that will be applied to everybody else in the public sector.

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[The Solicitor General]

I take point made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, and that made by the hon. Member for Glasgow North East. I will write to the Committee, as I have indicated.

On the question of bureaucracy, the measures take a minimalist approach. The code of practice will guide public authorities to align their actions regarding the new duty with existing practice. We expect a minimal expansion to existing procedures to suffice. Our open consultation will allow any concerns about bureaucracy to be raised and taken into account.

[Anne McLaughlin]

Does that mean that the British Medical Association, for instance, will be allowed to make its own assessment?

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[The Solicitor General]

I am happy to give that. From my own understanding and experience of such issues, I am extremely keen to ensure that people who are fluent but who might, due to disability, express themselves slightly differently, are not discriminated against in any way.

On the question of setting a single standard, again, to enlarge the point that I was making, because the public sector has such a broad range of customer-facing roles, whether they be heart surgeons or parking enforcement officers, different particular standards will be appropriate. Therefore, the code will guide public authorities to set a standard that is proportionate to the nature of the spoken interaction that is an integral part of each role. To reinforce the point that I just made to the hon. and learned Gentleman about discrimination, public authorities, like all employers, are prohibited from discriminating against members of staff and job applicants by the terms of the Equality Act 2010, under which disability is a protected characteristic. Of course that will be relevant to individuals with a speech impediment.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I appreciate the Minister letting me butt in so often. He has said that there is a public duty under equalities legislation not to discriminate against a potential employee, but discrimination happens and we know that it happens. It is far harder for someone to find a job if they are black; basically, it is much more difficult. The Committee has heard most of my fears, but my fear on this is that is that, just as landlords feel that they will discriminate whether they really want to or not, these measures will make employers more fearful of employing somebody who might get complaints against them because of language—not because they cannot speak the language fluently, but because they sound and look different. It will make it even harder for people to find employment. All the equalities legislation in the world is only useful if people know how to use it and have the resources to use it.

[The Solicitor General]

I hear the hon. Lady, but I must remind her that we are talking about public authorities, which have had to, quite rightly, adapt their practices to take into account legislation such as the Equality Act 2010, which consolidated and enhanced a number of other statutes passed over a generation or more, which in turn dealt with racism, disability discrimination and so on. They were Acts of Parliament passed by all parties in this House. I would be as distressed as she if a public authority misused in any way what I would submit are the benign duties in the clause to reverse the progress that we have made. It is not about whether somebody looks or sounds different; it is about basic standards of proficiency and fluency that will improve public services.

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[The Solicitor General]

At this stage what I will say is that those points need to be fed into the consultation, so that in the code of practice we get objective standards for fluency absolutely right. I note from the code of practice that there is a helpful table in the draft suggesting the stages of proficiency that can be equated with various qualifications, such as GCSEs, GCE A-levels or NQFs.

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, which I would argue needs further discussion. I hope that if, when the code of practice is finalised, the issue he raises is causing problems, that will be reflected in a system that, while still objective, will include an understanding that fluency can sometimes be measured in a non-academic way, which would therefore need to be built into any assessment such as a written test or other proficiency test conducted by the employer or prospective employer when interviewing candidates for a job. That could be an objective standard.

[Anne McLaughlin]

Is not that the same as allowing the employers to follow their current recruitment processes and make the judgment themselves? If things are going to be that vague, why do not we just continue to allow employers to make the assessment themselves?

[The Solicitor General]

What we are doing is making sure that the practice spreads. Indeed, some employers do it already; but we think that the duty would spread it throughout the public service. The hon. Lady may well be right; normal assessment processes may be perfectly sufficient. Examples might be a spoken interview or the choice to require an applicant to answer a detailed interview question in English or Welsh, or to possess a relevant qualification, or pass a specifically tailored competency test. It is not a matter of heavy prescription.

The Opposition cannot have it both ways. On one level, they are telling us that they are concerned that the proposals will be too bureaucratic, and on another, when I suggest that this is in fact, more flexible, they ask what the point is. There is a point: it is all about spreading best practice through all levels of public service.

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[The Solicitor General]

Clause 40 provides a power to make regulations to expand the meaning of a person in respect of whom this duty applies. Should the relevant Minister—the Minister of the Cabinet Office or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—choose to make such regulations, the duty would apply to customer-facing staff of contractors and subcontractors delivering a public service through an arrangement with a public authority. To comply with the statutory duty in clause 38, public authorities need to have regard to the code of practice to ensure that the customer-facing staff of these organisations, as well as their own directly engaged staff, meet the language standard.

Public authorities need to make sure, first, that the standard of fluency applied is proportionate to the nature of each customer-facing role; and secondly that their complaints process allows citizens to report their experience of a customer-facing worker employed by such organisations who is not speaking fluent English. Hon. Members will be aware from our previous debate about the consultation that is now live that respondents are asked explicitly for their views on the impact of expanding the scope of the duty to the staff of private and third-sector suppliers. We will publish those views as part of the Government response to the consultation. However, any expansion of this duty to apply to the staff of private and third-sector providers of services will involve separate consultation before any regulations are made.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 40 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 41 and 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 43

Application of Part to Wales

[Anne McLaughlin]

I beg to move amendment 246, in clause 43, page 39, line 23, at end insert—

‘(4) This Part does not apply to Scotland.”

I have set out why I do not want this measure to be part of United Kingdom legislation, so this is really just to make the argument that if the rest of the United Kingdom does, indeed, want it—I have set out the different experiences of Members in the different countries—then it should not stand in Scotland.

[The Solicitor General]

I gently remind the hon. Lady that the title of clause 43 is “Application of Part to Wales”. I see the point she is making, so I do not want to make too lawyerly a point, but the provision relates to Wales rather than Scotland.

The purpose of the hon. Lady’s amendment is to exclude Scotland from the whole of part 7. Subsections (3) and (4) of clause 39—the governing clause of this part of the Bill—provide that the requirement for customer-facing public sector workers to speak fluent English applies in Scotland only to the extent that a public authority exercises functions related to a reserved matter.

Hon. Members may not be aware of a letter sent on 3 November from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Communities and Pensioners’ Rights in the Scottish Government, Mr Alex Neil, to my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General. In that letter, Mr Neil acknowledges that this part of the Bill will only apply to reserved matters, and we agree that any further extension into devolved matters would require a legislative consent motion.

I am grateful to Mr Neil and his team for the work that has been done with members of the British Government and the discussions with Scottish Government officials that have resulted in this proposal. I am also grateful to him for instructing his officials to ensure that the Cabinet Office received every support in understanding the landscape of the reserve public sector in Scotland. Such lines of contact have been established, and indeed the consultation continues. For all those reasons, I very much hope that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East will withdraw the amendment.

[Anne McLaughlin]

On a point of clarification, Mr Owen. Being a new MP and a new member of the Committee, I am a bit confused by the gentle reminder that the Minister gave me. Amendment 246 says:

“This Part does not apply to Scotland.”

I am not entirely sure what the Minister was referring to when he mentioned Wales—I am just looking for a bit of guidance on that. Do we have different pieces of paper?

[The Chair]

I will try to help the hon. Lady. The title of clause 43 is:

“Application of Part to Wales”.

It is not possible to amend the title of a clause; I think the Minister was explaining that. Does the hon. Lady wish to withdraw the amendment?

[Anne McLaughlin]

Not really.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Keir Starmer]

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central’s new clause and I pay tribute to the part he played in the report to which he referred. As he said, the report was powerful and strong recommendations were made. The key recommendations from the report were, first, that there should a limit of 28 days on the length of time anyone can held in immigration detention. Secondly, detention is currently used disproportionately frequently, resulting in too many instances of detention. The presumption, in theory and practice, should be in favour of community-based resolutions and against detention. Thirdly, decisions to detain should be very rare and detention should be for the shortest possible time and only to effect removal. Fourthly, the Government should learn from international best practice and introduce a much wider range of alternatives to detention than are currently used in the UK.

This is a real concern, a growing concern and a cross-party concern. I know that the Stephen Shaw work has been done and there is a report. I think that that mainly touches on welfare, but I will be corrected by the Minister if I am wrong. The new clause is important because it goes well beyond welfare issues; it is a point of real principle. In that spirit I support it.

[Anne McLaughlin]

In the immigration debate that took place in the Chamber, I spoke about a child who had been in detention. I know that the policy, notwithstanding what my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North said, is no longer to detain children, but I want to repeat what I said about that child, and I will explain why.

I talked about a 10-year-old boy who was detained with his mother in Dungavel in Scotland and was then moved to Yarl’s Wood. He lost 10 lb in three weeks and lost so much hope that he turned to his mother one day and whispered, “It would be easier if we died. Mummy, please can we die?” I appreciate that there is not a person in this room—I have absolutely no doubt—who, if that child were standing in front of them, would not do whatever they could to help that child. This was somebody I knew pretty well.

Okay, so we only detain adults now, but I am not willing to believe that there is any Member here who, if they had a woman standing in front of them who had been through so much trouble to get here, who was a victim of sexual violence, and they could make the decision about that one person standing there, having heard her story, would not help her. I do not believe that any of us would not use the key that we have to free her from detention if we were able to do it. They are not standing in front of us now, but we are the ones who hold the key to whether those people suffer in the way that many hon. Members have described. That mother wanted to comfort her child. She wanted to reassure her child that it would be over soon, that “this will be happening” in two weeks or one week, three days or three months or whatever, but she could not. She could not reassure herself because she had no idea how long they were going to be there.

I think that the worst thing for people is not having a clue when or where it is going to end. I visited a family in Dungavel a number of years ago, as an elected Member of the Scottish Parliament and I felt intimidated. I felt intimidated by the surroundings and the uniforms, by the big jangle of the keys, by the prison-like atmosphere and the fact that I was fingerprinted. I was a Member of the Scottish Parliament and they fingerprinted me as I went in. If I felt intimidated, what must it feel like to somebody who has absolutely no control over their life, and has not had any for a long time because they have had to flee their country and ask for help in a foreign country? I cannot imagine it.

I pay tribute, as my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North has done, to the organisations that support people in detention. I particularly encourage the organisations that demonstrate outside such facilities to continue to do so, because it makes a big difference to the people inside. There was a demonstration at Dungavel a couple of weeks ago. I know people who went, although I was unable to attend.

[James Brokenshire]

The hon. Lady is making her case and has indicated that she thinks that the measures do not go far enough. Just so that I understand, does she believe that there is a role at all for detention in immigration removal?

[Anne McLaughlin]

As a last resort. I have never said that we should never detain anybody, but detention is to be used as a last resort. In fact, I think the Minister himself said that the power to detain should be exercised only sparingly and for the shortest possible time. I do not know whether that is the case, but it should be the case.

If it is for the shortest possible time, that is a good argument for having a time limit in statute. I agree with the hon. Member for Sheffield Central, who said—I think the report of the inquiry into the use of immigration detention in the UK also made the point—that, without a time limit, the casework will suffer. We are all human beings. I am a deadlines kind of person; I do things at the deadline. I would love to be the kind of person who does things in preparation for a deadline, and I am always telling myself that I will be that kind of person, but we are all human and we all work to deadlines. If there is no deadline, of course things take a lot longer.

I also wanted to say something about the categories of people who could not be detained if the new clause were accepted. They would include people who have been trafficked. In an earlier sitting, several Conservative Members and I had a debate about people allowing themselves to be trafficked. I was pretty upset at the time, as were a lot of people, but I realise now how that misunderstanding came about: it is because there is an awful lot of talk in the media about people trafficking when it is actually people smuggling. I accept that is not the fault of the people who pick up the term, but the language that we use is extremely important. If we all accept that trafficking involves coercion and is done against the person’s will and that those people have effectively been kidnapped, I hope that we can accept that detention is an absolutely dreadful experience for them and affects them even more severely. I certainly support not detaining that group of people.

On the assisted returns project, I reassure the Minister, as I have said, that I understand that sometimes people must be detained. I also understand that sometimes they must be deported—removed from this country—because not everyone is entitled to live here. If that is done, it is far better to continue with schemes such as the family returns project. I have constituents and friends who do not want to return because their memories are of the country that they came from as it was when they left. All they need is reassurance from somebody that they trust that it is not the way it was, that it is safe for them and that there will be provisions and protections for them.

Most people who come to live in this country do so in such circumstances. They do not come here because they desperately want to live here. Most people would rather live in the country that they have come from. In leaving, they are leaving their family, their friends, their neighbourhood and the school that they went to. Most people do not want to give that up. Sometimes they need reassurance that they will be protected and that life is very different in the country that we are returning them to. That is why the approach must not be to criminalise them, lock them up or refuse to tell them when or if they will be leaving. The approach should be more humane than that, and should be about working with them rather than against them.

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[James Brokenshire]

I can certainly tell the hon. Gentleman that I wish to ensure that we publish the report and the Government’s response before the Bill completes its passage through Parliament. Equally, I want to ensure that we come back when we can. It is important that we reflect properly on the report and the recommendations, which we are actively doing.

During our debate on bail, I made it clear that vulnerable people should not normally be detained under immigration powers. I reiterate that point now. This approach is our published policy. We have a clear list of individuals who are not normally suitable for detention unless there are exceptional circumstances in play. The list includes pregnant women, the elderly, and those who have been identified by the competent authority under the national referral mechanism as victims of trafficking and torture. It is unlawful to act in a way that is contrary to our published policy.

The hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras raised the issue of mental health and release from detention. He asked whether there would ever be circumstances where a high-risk individual may need to be released from immigration detention because of their poor mental health. I can confirm that there will be some cases involving mental health issues where an individual should not be detained under immigration powers, no matter how high the risk and no matter how imminent the removal. In those cases, the right course of action will normally be to transfer to the appropriate authorities.

The new clause lacks definitions of the relevant exclusions and, as such, would be open to broad interpretation, so it contains weaknesses. Such an approach could leave the Home Office open to damages. For example, if a woman was pregnant at the point of detention but not aware of the fact or chose not to disclose her pregnancy, the Home Office could be sued for damages after the fact. It is an unfortunate reality that, in some cases, individuals will not comply with the requirement to leave the UK and their removal must be enforced, which often requires a short period of detention.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I appreciate what the Minister is saying but could he not just write safeguards into the legislation?

[James Brokenshire]

I am making a technical point on the drafting of the new clause. There are issues of principle, but we believe that even if the principle were accepted, there are technical deficiencies in the drafting that Members might wish to reflect on, given that no amendments have been tabled.