Support for Local Food Infrastructure

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale). I agree with absolutely everything he said. The Campaign to Protect Rural England talks about there being 1.3 million acres of brownfield sites across the UK, which plays well to his point that we should look at those sites and at buildings for solar panels rather than using green fields.

It is also a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing it. It is a timely debate, because of covid, the supply chain problems that we have had and the cost of living, and also because support for our farmers and our fishermen is absolutely essential. I pay tribute to the previous Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Neil Parish, for his work on this matter in the reports published by the Committee late last year. The work of that Committee has been absolutely tremendous and it has made a number of good suggestions.

I welcome the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mark Spencer), to his place. It is really welcome news that we have a farmer in that role; I know that my farmers are delighted he is there, and I hope that he will come down and visit us.

The subject of this debate cuts through to the very heart of localism in terms of our approach to and support for local businesses. Dare I say that I think we ought to be a little bit more French? It is not often that I am supportive of some of the measures that the French Government put in place, but one thing that can be seen in local communities across France is how they support local farmers and local producers within their communities —indeed, there are not as many supermarkets in the surrounding areas as are found elsewhere.

That French appetite for, interest in and manner of operating with their own farmers and fishermen must be replicated in the UK. We have been talking about localism for the last 12 years and we now have a real opportunity to implement it. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) discussed how we talk about food and how we encourage people to learn how to cook. Actually, an extraordinary number of opportunities for people to learn have already been provided by the private sector. There is a small group called Cookable, which helps people in schools and in workplaces by giving them better lessons on how to cook and how to have better engagement with the food they eat. On top of that, we have to think about how we educate people about the food they eat and where it comes from. What programmes can be put in place in schools to get children on to farms and fishing boats to ensure that people are more aware of the fact that the good-quality food we produce in this country is worth supporting and eating?

I will spend most of my time today talking about the south-west food hub. In 2014, David Cameron launched a plan for public procurement. The plan was that £1.2 billion worth of food should be bought by the public sector, improving standards. In response to that plan, the Crown Commercial Service committed to introducing a dynamic purchasing system to allow SMEs to register for Government contracts. In 2016, that was successfully piloted in Bath and north-east Somerset. The pilot demonstrated that food costs did not increase when buying from local SMEs, and it generated cost savings of 6% in the first year due to increased transparency and shorter supply chains.

Due to that pilot, the south-west food hub was selected by the Crown Commercial Services to do a scaled-up pilot. Unfortunately, the CCS has now reneged on its agreement with the south-west food hub and the hub has been dropped. That is a real mistake, because there is an opportunity here, with an organisation that is already set up, to build on two successful pilot schemes to ensure we get better local homegrown food into the stomachs of our constituents and on to the shelves of our shops. We have to have a long-term strategy about that. We are doing it for oil and gas and we are doing it for our energy infrastructure. Let us think about how we can do it for our food production and how we can support our farmers and fishermen.

It is interesting that in the Agriculture Act 2020 there is a requirement for the Secretary of State to come forward and talk about food security. I really hope that is going to happen this autumn—the time is now. It is a perfect opportunity for us to talk about how we can improve the self-sustainability of the United Kingdom, and our own food security. It is levelling up in the perfect form. It will not even cost us money.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)]

Thank you to everyone for sticking to time. We come to the Front-Bench contributions. I would like to leave two minutes at the end for the mover of the motion to sum up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jayawardena]

I want to see top-quality agricultural land being used to grow food.

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

The Agriculture Act 2020 states that the Secretary of State has to come before Parliament every three years to report on the UK’s food security. Will he do so this autumn?

[Mr Jayawardena]

Having been in the role just over 24 hours, I will review all my duties in due course.

Inshore Fishing Fleet

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Inshore Fishing Fleet.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I should declare my interest as treasurer of the all-party parliamentary group on shellfish aquaculture and point the House towards my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

There can be no more picturesque sight than that of our fishermen going about their day’s work, and for residents of and visitors to south Devon’s coastal communities, it is a regular occurrence to see nets cast, pots raised, boats launched and catches landed. That is undoubtedly a familiar view across the coastline of the United Kingdom, and one that presumably has changed very little—with the exception of new technologies—over the past few centuries.

I shall focus my remarks on the inshore fishing fleet, which I am defining as vessels generally below 24 metres within the 12-nautical-mile limit, and based on the value of the vessel and gear type. I am fully aware that there is no specific definition of the inshore fishing fleet, and that one of the few benefits of the common fisheries policy was not to provide an exact explanation or definition, but to include a 10-metre dividing line for vessels under that, which were removed from having sizeable administrative burdens placed upon them. Colleagues might wish to expand on that definition.

As ever, I believe that there is significant opportunity for our coastal communities to do more for our fishermen, and levelling up is about not just creating new opportunities, but shoring up existing and established sectors such as the fishing industry. If there is to be any purpose to the debate, it is to raise awareness and to call for greater clarity and co-operation between the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Marine Management Organisation, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Association of Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities—the IFCAs—and our fishermen, as well as to highlight the legitimate concerns held by the sector about some of the new regulations, requirements and technologies that are being foisted on this noble industry.

It is absolutely not too late to make the changes necessary to enable us to enhance confidence and certainty. If successful, the Government would have simple wins that helped to create jobs, investment and opportunity across the UK’s coastal communities, as well as fulfilling part of the national food strategy and achieving some of their core levelling-up objectives.

From the outset, I should make it clear that I consider the Minister’s efforts on behalf of us coastal MPs exemplary. She has displayed typical patience and tolerance towards me, and I suspect others, and my weekly—if not daily—questions and inquiries on behalf of the fishermen of south Devon. There is cross-party support for and consensus on her hard work and determination to see the sector flourish, so today’s debate, and the attendance of right hon. and hon. Members from across the House, should only strengthen her arm. I hope she will listen carefully to the suggestions that we make.

I am going to tackle four areas, and for Members who might want to intervene, this is the order in which I shall do so: first, the fuel crisis; secondly, the MCA under-15-metres code; thirdly, the spatial squeeze; and, fourthly, the catch app and the inshore vessel monitoring system.

The fuel crisis is perhaps one of the most serious matters facing our fishing sector. The recently published Seafish impact assessment details the rising impact of fuel prices on the fishing sector. It makes for grim reading and details the step-by-step impact of fuel prices versus the economic viability of UK fishing fleets. After an incredibly difficult two years, this shock increase is only likely to sail more fleets into the red and see them suffer operational losses. The worst-case scenario suggests that two thirds of the UK’s fishing fleets might not be able to cover operational costs by income, and even the most optimistic scenario shows that half the fleet’s operating profits might drop into negative values.

We cannot underestimate the impact that the fuel price crisis will have on our fishing fleets if the Government fail to respond. There are steps that individual vessels and skippers can take—from optimising gear, fishing methods and vessel propulsion systems, to improving maintenance both of vessels and hulls and of engines and auxiliary engines, as well as improving operational husbandry—but that costs money. Businesses might usually be able to ask for or to source investment, but that has been proving incredibly difficult due to high prices, poor returns and a lack of certainty.

Let me make two proposals to mitigate the impact of rising fuel prices on the fishing industry. First, the UK Government and DEFRA have created the UK seafood fund—a fund of £100 million set up to support the long-term future and sustainability of the UK fisheries and seafood sector. This fund should be repurposed without the need for match funding in order to help enhance and retrofit vessels with green technology.

Secondly, the super-deduction scheme, announced in the 2021 Budget, was a stroke of genius and was applicable to fishing operators purchasing new vessels. However, it did not support the retrofitting and upgrading of vessel machinery to make it greener and more fuel efficient, so the scheme ought to be amended in order to help at this difficult time.

Anecdotally, I received a message yesterday from the crew of a trawler based in Brixham, in my constituency, that had just been out on an eight-day voyage. Because of the rising cost of fuel, they returned after eight days with the smallest amount of profit they had made in quite some time, which equated to each of the eight members of the crew earning £32 a day. If we continue in that direction, following that model, our fishing fleets will be totally unsustainable and, at a point when we are worrying about food security, they will not be able to even go to sea to help address the food security crisis we face.

Does my hon. Friend the Minister support the two suggestions I have made, and will she speak to the Chancellor about them? Has her Department explored emergency schemes similar to the European maritime, fisheries and aquaculture fund launched by the European Union, and whether there are any lessons to be learned from that scheme?

Last year, I went to sea on a Brixham trawler, which was an extraordinary opportunity, and I saw at first hand the hard work it takes to provide fine British seafood for our dinner tables. This year, I am set to head out with the Salcombe crabbers to learn more about that sector. Going to sea comes with the most extraordinary risk, and it is absolutely right that we do nothing to reduce the levels and expectation of safety. Fishing is one of the most dangerous occupations in the UK, and in the last 10 years there have been, tragically, 42 deaths on vessels of less than 15 metres.

No one here wants to see any loss of life, and safety and security are vital, but there is a concern about the new MCA safety code, which is causing considerable amounts of consternation and concern for a large number of vessels, skippers, owners and crew. I understand that the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations has already raised with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Robert Courts) the need for a review of the code’s implementation. It has raised a number of points that have also been brought to my attention by the likes of Beshlie Pool from the South Devon and Channel Shellfishermen, and by fishermen in Dartmouth, Brixham, Salcombe and Torbay. These problems include, but are not limited to, the roll test stability assessment; previously certificated vessels being asked to alter their original design; the time frame in conducting these tests being both lengthy and costly; the language in the code of practice being undeniably complicated and vague; and the engagement of surveyors being poor and failing to reassure those who fear they may lose their jobs, livelihoods and vessels.

There are solutions. The MCA should revise its roll test stability assessment to include either the heel test or the offset load test. Water freeing arrangements should be considered on a risk-based, individual approach by the MCA. The MCA should state a turnaround time for these tests; the NFFO has suggested a week, which I think is perfectly reasonable, as do industry representatives. Improved guidance and consolidated information need to be written so that it can be more easily understood and implemented. Finally, the MCA should train its surveyors to work hand in hand with fishermen to understand that these changes have a significant impact on them and on their jobs. I say again, no one wants to reduce safety at sea, but we must take fishermen with us rather than bamboozle and confuse them with non-sensical generalised tests.

I am positive about the future of fishing in the UK, but I frequently meet angry and depressed fishermen whose mental health is suffering and who, in many cases, are considering packing it all in. It is ironic that with the current expected changes being forced upon us, many fishermen are taking increased risks and working in rougher conditions. That is the exact opposite of the what the MCA code seeks to do. There must be better engagement.

In the Minister’s response to my letter, which I received yesterday and I am grateful for, she mentioned the co-operation the MCA has had on the issue with the main UK fishing federations, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, Seafish and the Shipbuilders and Shiprepairers Association, and that there had been a roadshow consultation. That is all very welcome, but the industry is now pushing back and we would do well to listen to its legitimate concerns.

I know that the matter falls into the brief of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, but what engagement has my hon. Friend the Minister for Farming, Fisheries and Food had with him on this point? What scope for reform and amendment does she think is available, given the sizeable pushback from the industry? As Members might know, I am very keen to see the Hampton principles adopted at every level of Government, and that we can still maintain safety at sea.

Like so much of the Government’s policy when it comes to the environment, we have an incredibly strong record. We need only look at the fact that 38% of UK waters are now in designated protected areas, which equates to 371 marine protected areas across the UK—to say nothing of the highly protected marine areas that will be identified by the end of this year. Like safety, protecting our coastal waters is not just important but a necessity. Well-managed coastal waters are as effective a carbon sink as anything we might find on land. In fact, I could bore for Britain, Sir Charles, about the role that live bivalve molluscs play in sequestering carbon and cleaning our waters, but I can assure you that that is for another day.

The marine protected areas and highly protected marine areas are now more effective at sequestering carbon, but there are now more carbon capture areas, dredging sites and wind farms, and we will only squeeze our fishermen into smaller and smaller areas, as well as encouraging the intensification of fishing over smaller ranges. There is a unique example of that happening in the North sea, where in 2003 we shut our waters to demersal fishing in order to protect spawning cod. The then Labour Government thought they were doing the right thing in 2003—I am always delighted to point out a Labour Government’s flaws—but scientists at the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science thought that they did exactly the opposite. We closed the ranges and, as a result, the cod that we sought to protect was caught immediately after the seasonal closure. The demersal fleet was pushed into another area, where immature fish were caught and subsequently discarded, and the Dutch fleets were pushed into new fishing grounds, where they enacted extensive damage to the biodiversity and ecosystem.

Historical fishing grounds come with a responsibility that fishermen take seriously and understand how to manage. The Government must recognise the real-world consequences of squeezing and shutting down historical grounds, and the impact that this will have not just on the industry but on fish stocks and our ecosystems. The key is to listen to fishermen and to understand that their knowledge is not born out of guesswork; it is a product of daily engagement and understanding, and sometimes it has come about over centuries of working in the sector.

I agree with the NFFO that we should conduct a careful, site-by-site analysis of how conservation objectives for each site could be achieved while minimising the impacts on the fishing industry; that we must ensure closer dialogue with those who would be affected by management measures; that we need to implement close collaboration in the design of those measures; and that we have to maintain an adaptive approach. If we squeeze our fishing grounds into small areas, we will only send our inshore fishing fleets further out, thereby facing greater danger, rising costs and diminishing fishing grounds.

Does the Minister recognise that Scotland has found the right balance in this area? We can learn from its example in this instance—that is not something I thought I would be saying, but it is true. Does the Minister also recognise that, in some MPAs and HPMAs, fishing can assist the enhancement of biodiversity and carbon sequestration? What exemptions could be allowed to see fishing operations—perhaps in the aquaculture sector—take place in those areas?

Technology is a great leveller. We might groan and complain about the advancements, but who among us has not seen it improve our lives? Now is the time for the fishing sector. Both the inshore vessel monitoring system and the catch app have been well voiced for both the positive and the negative. On the positive side, I recognise the value of these systems. Ultimately, the technology will help improve our data and allow us to maintain our arguments about the responsibility and manner in which our fishermen look after our waters. That technology should not be feared, but embraced where necessary and when sensible.

I happen to believe that the technology is highly relevant for vessels over 10 metres. However, I am totally unsure about why the Government and the MMO are pushing for the smallest vessels—those under 10 metres—to install this technology. Open-deck vessels that are launched from beaches run the risk of having their equipment stolen, as the devices are fitted and not portable. The issues with signalling that we all experience across our coastal communities are already proving difficult, and mean that these fishermen fear inadvertently breaking the law and run the risk of fines if they accidently get it wrong. We forget that, across the country, these are not large-scale operations but individuals and their boats. We must ensure that we are working with them and listening to them. With regard to the IVMS technology, will the Minister please offer an exemption to boats under 10 metres before the August deadline? Not only is the technology expensive but, given the sporadic fishing schedule of the under-10s, IVMS offers neither good data nor value for money. As I have said, the only good part of the CFP was perhaps the exemption of under-10s from burdensome requirements.

On the subject of money, I understand that now there is only one approved supplier of the IVMS technology and that prices have been inflated grossly. The Government have offered £650 for the equipment and installation but, all too often, installation is not covered by the grant we are now offering. So, to my final questions: first, does the Minister recognise that the prices have been inflated and that installation costs are frequently being added to the £650, and what might we be able to do about that?

Secondly, on enforcement, I understand that the data collected will be interpreted by the local IFCAs, but that there is no national standard or procedure in place to ensure that they act appropriately, proportionately and consistently in their use of data. Will the Minister clarify that and say that there is a national response?

On the catch app, I wrote recently to the MMO about the need to address some of the concerns. From the response I have had from Mr Michael Coyle, it now seems that we have a system that will allow people to enter their catch to the port nearest to where they land—rather than the actual port, if it is not listed in the app—and that will accept a 10% margin of tolerance and record the data offline and transmit when back in signal. Those are positive steps, which provide some reassurance to people who were deeply worried that they will be penalised and fined. Simple though it may sound, we must improve communication and ensure that the MMO, DEFRA and fishermen work together in a collaborative manner that reassures them all.

I am often accused of speaking only about fishing, and I am sorry not to have disabused people of that view, but I am proud of the fishing community in my patch. I see their value and what they achieve in south Devon. I know that they have an enormous opportunity in the role they have to play in levelling up our coastal communities and ensuring that jobs, investment, training and skills can all come in the right direction in the right place.

I suspect that your patience with me has worn out, Sir Charles, so I will leave you with a final cast: our land and seas can look after us, but only if we listen to those who know it best, those who for centuries have toiled the land and sailed the seas. Now, at a time of great need, we would do well to place our faith and support in those who can address the many challenges that we face.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Anthony Mangnall]

I will be brief, Sir Charles, but thank you, and I thank the Minister for her response.

I will rattle through some of the comments that were made. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) was absolutely right to talk about the food that we can eat, and the Procurement Bill provides such an opportunity. Unfortunately, I am disappointed in the food strategy, which mentions fishing only four times and aquaculture only three. When it does mention fishing, it is deregulation from EU rules; it does not talk about how we can do better to get fish into the supply chain.

My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) made a vital point: we need certainty beyond 2026, beyond the transition period. People need to know where they are going to go and whether we will have the six to 12-mile limit back in our hands.

I loved the idea of lockdown lobster, and if the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) is happy to invite me, I will visit. She is of course right: that shows the innovative way in which our fishermen and our communities have been able to support local produce and get it into the market. There is more that we can do, and lessons such as that are ones that we can learn from.

My hon. Friends the Members for West Dorset (Chris Loder) and for St Ives (Derek Thomas) made the point about regulation.. I suspect my hon. Friend for St Ives may come up with his very own catchphrase, such as “tangled in nets, not red tape”. I am sure he can do better than me. As ever, I feel validated by the presence of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who talked about the fact that fishermen are retiring because of the added level of bureaucracy. They feel they might just pack it in because it is becoming too difficult. We need to focus very carefully on that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) made the point that if we are to reduce the civil service, let us reduce the regulation and make it more coherent and easier to adopt. My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild) made the point about his smaller fishermen and invited us all to visit. I can think of nothing better than a cross-party visit to see what is going on in King’s Lynn and other parts of his constituency.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) made the point about where we might learn. I see no better way to strengthen the Union than by learning how to co-operate through hearing the experiences of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, to ensure that across the United Kingdom of these islands, we have a coherent, successful fishing industry that is the pride of our country. I thank the Backbench Business Committee and everyone for their time.

[Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

We are ending a little early. I could have given each of you another 25 seconds.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the Inshore Fishing Fleet.

Government Food Strategy

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[George Eustice]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. During the pandemic, when there were concerns about global supply chains, we looked in great detail, with the Department of Health, at possible problems with the availability of infant formula milk. She is right that we import the vast majority of our infant formula milk, principally from France and Ireland, but we have done some work to encourage and support dairy processors in this country to enter the market.

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

May I confirm that, under the strategy, public money for public good in environmental land management schemes will be about food production? Will the Secretary of State push for a national food security target? Lastly, on the impact of fuel prices, fishermen in Brixham are laying up their vessels because their average takings for an entire day’s work are £32. If we do not step in, fishermen across the United Kingdom will lay up vessels. We need a strategy fast, or we will not be able to anything on fish and shellfish.

Fly-tipping and Illegal Dumping

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Saqib Bhatti) on raising this issue. From the speeches we have heard, it is clear that whether we are in an urban or a rural setting, we are all facing the same problem: the pernicious crime that is fly-tipping. It happens in my constituency, and it has happened to a greater degree over the pandemic. The statistics are stark; figures from across the country show that over the past two years, fly-tipping has only got worse. In the east midlands, it has got 20% worse; in the east, it has got 29% worse; in London, it is 6.9% worse; in the north-east, it is 26.7% worse; in the north-west, it is 21.8% worse; in the south-east, it is 34% worse; in the south-west, it is 9.2% worse; and in the west midlands, it is 27.9% worse. The only area of the country that has seen an improvement is Yorkshire and the Humber, with a reduction of 1.6%. Surely, there is a lesson we can learn from that.

There has also been a 24% reduction in the number of fixed penalty notices issued for fly-tipping, so we need to seriously address the questions of who is disposing of waste and where they are disposing of it. The people who use such services have some responsibility for ensuring they are disposing of their waste through a safe and responsible organisation; they, too, have a responsibility to make sure that their white goods, mattresses and furniture go where they should. It was interesting to hear Opposition Members talk about the responsibility of local authorities. Of course, some responsibility rests with local authorities to take action, but this also relies on individual businesses behaving responsibly by making sure they put their waste into tips, and on responsible behaviour from people who are getting rid of waste.

One of the biggest problems I have found in my constituency is how we document this crime, because it is incredibly difficult and expensive to so. We can talk about putting up CCTV cameras everywhere, but the reality bites: people in rural areas do not want CCTV cameras all over the place. In order to stamp fly-tipping out, we will have to find a way to bring together councils, individuals and businesses, with a register and hard-level fines to punish people who commit this crime. We will not always be able to rely on documenting it with big-state CCTV.

The fines are the biggest problem. According to the notes I have and the “Panorama” documentary “Rubbish Dump Britain”—my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow) and I referred to it in a debate that we held last year—it costs £1,500 to £2,000 for a council to investigate and prosecute fly-tipping, but the average fine is £170. Clearly, when there is such an imbalance, we will not discourage people from fly-tipping. We have the added problem of what happens if we employ someone to take our waste away and they subcontract the service to someone else, so there has to be a register or a measure in place.

My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden started and finished his speech with the words of “Jerusalem”. We might also add some Shakespeare, and say that

“this sceptred isle…set in the silver sea”

is worth protecting. It is worth ensuring that we can bring to justice those who commit the crime of fly-tipping. We must ensure they are brought before the law and dissuaded by punitive fines. If we can do that, we will see an end to it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jo Churchill]

Fixed penalty notices are currently set at £400. Local authorities can issue fines of up to £400 to fly-tippers and householders who pass their waste on to those who are not licensed. I will take that point away, because my right hon. Friend is not the first to say that perhaps the fine is not high enough. However, some councils do not even use the powers that they have to fine people up to £400. I really urge people to use everything we have given them.

[Anthony Mangnall]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but just to go back, she was talking about the need for licensing for waste clearers. However, in some instances, it is quite easy to get a licence. It needs to be more rigorous. How do we make sure it is not too easy for someone who commits a crime, or actually fly-tips, to apply and be given a licence?

[Jo Churchill]

It is about building blocks and making sure that we have the proper ability to investigate whether waste carriers and brokers are suitable to hold a waste licence. That is part of what we are trying to do. I commend the MSP, Mr Fraser, for driving this forward among the Scottish Conservatives. It is really important to all our constituents.

I was pleased to see that Aylesbury Crown court recently sentenced a serial fly-tipper, who had dumped rubbish in multiple local authorities, to 21 months in prison and seized his van. That is important, because it shows what many Members present have asked for: a deterrent and a strong, firm approach.

The Government outlined how we intended to strengthen enforcement powers through the passing of the landmark Environment Act 2021. We have fulfilled that commitment. The Act ensures that agencies and authorities can work effectively to combat waste crime through better access to evidence and powers of entry. The Environment Agency was granted access to the national automatic number plate recognition service in 2021, giving it the ability to better trace those using vehicles for illegal waste activities.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden acknowledges, this issue is not something that my Department can tackle on its own. It is not enough for us to provide the tools; the tools must be used. It is also important that we work across Government, which is why I have spoken to Baroness Vere in the Department for Transport about National Highways. I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), who is no longer present, asked for a similar approach with Network Rail. It is about us joining up. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) spoke about her council, which has joined up at multiple levels, including parishes and so on. We can get on top of this problem.

I agree with the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) that this is about education. We do fund education through WRAP, Keep Britain Tidy, Recycle Now and others. This year, I have secured funds to drive our education campaign work forward. I will be looking at how we can best target that and what we can do with it. I know many voluntary organisations already do phenomenal work and, although it is not a laughing matter, have tremendous names—the Rubbish Friends, the Wombles, and so on. They are encouraging young people, Scouts groups and many other parts of our community to get involved to clean up the areas that they love. It is really commendable.

I urge the councils of all Members present to feed back to us as much enforcement data as possible. My records show that Solihull Metropolitan Borough Council has not issued any fixed penalty notices or brought forward any prosecutions since 2014-15. In total, 19 local authorities in England reported no action taken in 2021. Councils keep the proceeds of fixed penalty notices, so they can use those to step up enforcement efforts. There is something cyclical here. The hon. Member for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe) is no longer present, but neither Rossendale nor Hyndburn has, in fact, issued any FPNs. As I say, it is good to hear about the joint working, but I need councils to work with us so that we can do more.

Food Security

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I always enjoy following the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) and, increasingly, hearing him rant. He is right on many of the points he raises and he is a fastidious supporter of farming and fishing in his community and across the south-west. I particularly enjoy working with him on this topic. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) on securing this hugely important debate.

The two things that have really focused people’s minds about food security have been the situation in Ukraine and the pandemic. The scorched-earth tactics being used in Ukraine will have the knock-on impact raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). These horrendous global shocks and events are giving us a moment of pause, contemplation and thought as to how we can improve food security in the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport is absolutely right: there need to be more faces in this Chamber debating this issue. I hope we will see an improvement from the food security report, as set out in the Agriculture Act 2020, that the DEFRA Secretary will present this autumn. Can the Minister confirm that the report will be presented on the Floor of the House of Commons, and that we will have the opportunity to challenge and question it, as well as discuss the lessons that might be learned from it?

Due to the pandemic, for the first time in my generation, we saw empty shelves and the fact that our global supply chains are incredibly fragile. It is important to say that we were not alone in that. I do not necessarily take the view that it was just caused by Brexit—a number of other countries in Europe found themselves in similar situations. However, it emphasised the need for us to act and to act fast, and to consider that we need more at-home production, fewer faceless suppliers and to talk up what we have.

Food of incredible quality comes out of my constituency in south Devon, in the form of fish and shellfish as well as the meat and dairy that is produced. The quality is extraordinary. There is an abundance of food in our seas and on our land. The high quality of what we produce is known across the world. However, we talk it down so often. We have to change that approach; ending that stigma about British food quality should be a top priority for any Member of Parliament and anyone in agriculture.

At the same time, we also have to think about how we introduce the conversation around food and farming in our schools, ensuring that young people can get on to our farms and on to our fishing boats to understand where food comes from, how we produce it and how we can do so in an environmentally responsible way. These things are incredibly important.

There is also the issue of seasonal variety. At the moment, our food security sits at about 65%. Now, whether or not we have a target that pushes us up to 75% or 80% is for Members of this House to discuss, but it is not something that I am inherently against, because at least we can then have the national ambition to ensure that all parts of the United Kingdom are producing food, so that we can be reassured about our food security.

My fourth point is that we spend a lot of time talking about rewilding. I myself spend a lot of time talking about regenerative agriculture and there is much conversation to be had about the intensification of farming. However, we have to find the balance between rewilding, intensive farming and food productivity. My biggest concern is that the environmental land management scheme that is replacing the basic payment scheme says absolutely nothing about public money for public good being about food production. Can we please update it and make sure that farmers in my constituency know that the new scheme is not only about rewilding and biodiversity, which of course are important, but food production, and that they will be supported in producing food?

Many other points have been made already, but I will just make two more quickly. First, I am always happy to bash supermarkets. They have an enormous responsibility. However, the fact that none of the supermarkets in the area of Brixham, the most valuable fishing port in England, stock any fish from that port is staggering. So we need to use the procurement Bill, when it comes before this House, to ensure that supermarkets are incentivised to buy first from local suppliers, in order to support the local economy and create a circular economy so that our farmers, fishermen, local producers, butchers, bakers and greengrocers can all benefit.

Secondly, I sit on the International Trade Committee and I spend a lot of time scrutinising the trade deals that we are making. I understand the reluctance and the hesitancy around the deals that we are striking, but we are making progress and improving how we conduct the negotiations. The agreement that we have come to with New Zealand is significantly different from our agreement with Australia. The intention for what we want to do in the Gulf also provides the opportunity for British producers to export, which is what our focus should be on. All too often, we talk about the import impact; we should talk about the ability to have an export impact. Our producers can achieve that by scaling up exports, which would benefit all our constituencies.

I respect the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith for bringing this issue to the House because it is an important one that needs focusing on, and because I think there is commonality across the House about ensuring that we do better on food security and ensuring that we can help those on the poverty line who use foodbanks by producing more food that is healthier and better for people, including for children in school.

I will leave it at that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy]

Exactly. The hon. Gentleman said that the end point he wanted to get to was the removal of subsidies and to leave everything to market forces. We know there is a need for subsidies—about 60% of farmers’ incomes depend on subsidies. His end point is so far into the future that to have it as an underlying policy objective is not a great idea. I do not agree with him on trade, but I will come to that later. I do not agree with him that the sugar tax or action on obesity would have the impact that he suggests, because we know from the soft drinks levy that what it has led to is the reformulation of products and people choosing to buy other products. If it works, people will not pay more because they will change their diets accordingly.

On game meat, a study that has just been released from Cambridge University showed that 99.5% of pheasants killed contained lead shot. I hope the Government will look at that figure with a view to banning lead shot. I certainly would not want to see that being served in our hospitals. However, all that has taken up more time than I had hoped, but I can never resist.

The impact of the rise in the cost of living and the absolutely desperate situation in which many people find themselves is a really important debate to be had, but I want to talk about food sovereignty and what we grow in this country. According to the national food strategy, we are about 77% self-sufficient in food that we can grow in this country—64% self-sufficient overall. Importing more food, changing diets and eating more exotic foods is not necessarily a bad thing. I remember when spaghetti was considered exotic in the 1970s. It is good that we have far more varied diets and that we can buy fruit and veg out of season, but there is a point at which declining food sovereignty starts to have a significant impact on food security and our vulnerability to global food shocks is exposed. We have heard about Ukraine and Brexit, and we all remember the empty shelves and rotting food caused by trucks getting stuck at borders earlier this year. There is also the ever-present threat of climate change and the impact that it could have on future harvests.

A national food strategy recommendation is that we should have reports to Parliament on food security every year rather than every three years, as specified by the Agriculture Act 2020. Given the vulnerabilities that we have spoken about, it is really important that we do that so that there can be a quicker response. I would also be interested to know whether there is a target to increase food sovereignty in this country and for us to grow more, as several Members have said. That should absolutely be a goal of our policy. Instead, what we seem to have underpinning the policy is an almost desperate touting of ourselves around the world as we try to secure trade deals, which would have the impact of not just lowering food standards in this country but undermining our farmers and, in some cases, putting them out of business—particularly if the hon. Member for Buckingham has his way—further down the line.

[Anthony Mangnall]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kerry McCarthy]

If I get an extra minute for doing so.

Food and Farming: Devon and Cornwall

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, although it is somewhat dauting to follow my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Sir Geoffrey Cox), the Chair of the EFRA Committee—my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish)—and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron). I had all the joy of listening to the speech by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon, and none of the costs. It was a startling reminder of the extraordinary contribution that he makes to this House, and of the knowledge of farming that he brings to this place. He said everything that I want to say on this topic, so I will rattle through a few points—adding a slightly fishy element to my speech.

South Devon consists of a variety of coastal fishing fleets and small inland farms. Between myself and my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter), we have one of the largest proportions of 150-acre farms in the country. I take the view, as the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale said, that these people are the stewards of our land and our seas. They are not people who want to ruin the land for immediate gain; they want their families, and the generations that come after them, to look after their land, work with it and produce for this country. The landscape in our country is beautiful for precisely that reason—because our famers look after it. DEFRA’s policy has to be aligned with not only the need for productivity and environmentalism, but the need to ensure a future generation of farmers who will look after our land and produce for our population.

During the pandemic, which we have managed to avoid talking about until now, it has been extraordinary to see the role of farm shops in our local rural communities, and the role that farmers have been able to play in producing for that infrastructure. We need to enhance that process and cultivate it. It not only created a circular economy, in which our farmers could produce for local farm shops, but showed people the true value of good, healthy, locally sourced, seasonal food, and of good beef, pork and sheep meat. That is a concept we need to build on.

I routinely hear the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Minister who is here today talk about engagement with fishermen and farmers; the over-quoted phrase is “working hand in glove”. Broadly, they do work hand in glove, and I know how hard the Minister works, but that hand-in-glove approach must provide fishermen and farmers with clarity on, and ease with, the new initiatives and schemes that we are establishing.

DEFRA has announced a litany of new initiatives, but the complexity of the forms involved—I have run through them with many of my constituents—is spellbinding, not least because these are small farmers. They hope to continue to produce on their land, but are routinely dissuaded from doing so by the complexities of even applying for the schemes. I urge the Minister to make sure that new initiatives are made simpler and easier, and to ensure that we really do work hand in glove with the sector.

We have also heard from colleagues on the need for on-farm productivity and better at-gate farm prices. If we can secure a local network and local market that farmers can sell into by increasing the number of abattoirs that are not in the ownership of supermarkets and foreign countries, we will ensure that farmers can enter the supply chain and improve the at-gate farm price, which is essential. I am surprised that my hon. Friend the Chair of the EFRA Committee did not have more of a pop at supermarkets, but I am sure that if we have a longer debate on this subject in future, he will.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon made a point about targets. All too often, we set targets that seem arbitrary. We have to come back with a food security report. I echo his call for a 75% target on food security in this country, and for that to be a target that we continually improve upon.

It has been surprising to me, in the time that I have been in this place, to see which Government Departments have moved out of London to locations across the country for one reason or another. If there is one Department that should not be based in London, it is DEFRA; it needs to be either alongside some of our agricultural colleges, or in a rural location, where it can work with those who are likely to go into farming or fishing, or to be land managers, or with the academics who spend time talking about this issue. If we hope to encourage people to go into farming, we need to ensure that we are listening to the people who will actually do the farming. That would help the policy that we are trying to put forward, and it would mean that we realised that Whitehall mandarins—I hope that any who are watching will forgive me—do not always know what is right for rural areas, and what we need in our constituencies.

Of course, I would say that south Devon is the perfect place for DEFRA, but I am sure that we can all make that point about our area later. There is a real need to make sure that our local agricultural colleges and those people who are going into farming and fishing have experience of, and hands-on time to get involved and engaged with, DEFRA and policy making. I would be very interested to hear from the Minister on how she is engaging with that. I know that there are initiatives and schemes, but they need to be far more widespread across the United Kingdom.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon made points about exports and how we can promote British food and drink. We already do so to a degree, but I wholeheartedly agree that we can do it more successfully. We are able to say that the produce we are promoting around the world is some of the finest in the world.

We are about to sign a trade deal with Australia, and hopefully will soon sign one with New Zealand, as well as the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. When we sign our trade deals, we should talk about the fact that our produce meets some of the highest welfare standards and is of the highest quality. That produce will be in demand, but it needs financial support, and DEFRA and the Department for International Trade must ensure that they promote ways to get it abroad.

We have heard from lots of right hon. and hon. Members about the opportunity that exists. What matters is recognising the opportunity. All of us agree that we are moving in the right direction, but we need to seize on the new opportunities, provide clarity, stability and—where possible—funding, ensure that we are working hand-in-glove on policy development, and move on from there.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Agriculture: Sustainable Intensification and Metrics

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Westminster Hall

[Julian Sturdy]

I completely agree with the hon. Member that we have to ensure that we protect our farming communities and that people do not leave farming. It is so important that we have expertise both on the land and within the sector to make sure that opportunities are there for future generations. The Government must make that clear in their future agricultural policy, and I will touch on that shortly, because I have concerns about its direction, which is, I think, what the hon. Member was referring to.

When we talk about gene editing, we must ensure that future farm policies embrace and support the use of all the new, innovative technologies. Like many others in the sector, I am concerned about the direction of travel of the Government’s future vision for agriculture. As I just said, I am concerned about where future policy is going. We cannot afford to be complacent with something as fundamental as food security. The global food supply and demand balance remains as precarious today as 11 years ago, when Sir John Beddington’s Foresight report urged Governments to pursue a policy of sustainable intensification in agriculture to meet future food needs in the context of population growth, climate change and the finite national resources of land, water and fossil fuels.

Last year’s “Agricultural Outlook 2021-2030” report by the OECD and the Food and Agriculture Organisation warned that, with 8.5 billion mouths to feed by 2030, a business-as-usual approach will fall short of achieving sustainable development goal 2 on zero hunger by 2030. The report also highlighted the critical role of public and private sector research and development investment in enhancing productivity on existing farmland to alleviate pressures and bring more land into production. We have a responsibility to optimise our capacity for sustainable, efficient food production and to not offshore our food system’s impacts to regions of the world that are more vulnerable to the production-limiting effects of climate change.

Concerns are mounting that, without clear vision and a definition of what is meant by “sustainable agriculture”, the UK is at risk of sleepwalking into its own food crisis. Writing in Food Policy, Robert Paarlberg of the Harvard Kennedy School recently highlighted the transatlantic policy tensions between the EU’s farm to fork strategy, referring to the plans to expand organic farming, reduce synthetic chemical use and reject modern biotechnology and the United States’ approach, which is to emphasise agricultural innovations based on the latest science, articulated through its global coalition on sustainable productivity growth.

Last September, I wrote to the Prime Minister, urging the UK Government to sign up to that coalition, which was established by US Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, to demonstrate that farmers can adapt to and adopt environmentally friendly and climate-smart farming practices without sacrificing productivity. I did not receive a reply from No. 10, so I ask the Minister: will the UK Government join other countries, such as Australia, Canada and Brazil, in signing up to the global coalition for sustainable productivity growth? Will the Minister explain where the UK sits in terms of the agricultural policy tension described by Robert Paarlberg?

Last year, the all-party parliamentary group on science and technology in agriculture held a meeting on the subject “Whatever happened to sustainable intensification?” It included contributions from leading UK experts in the fields of crop science, agricultural economics, rural policy and conservation science. The meeting highlighted serious concerns that current farm policy development lacks scientific rigour, and that policy focus on sustainable intensification has diminished.

We were reminded that DEFRA responded to Professor Beddington’s foresight report by initiating the sustainable intensification research platform, or SIP. That is a £4.5 million, four-year, multi-partner research programme to investigate the challenges of securing the optimum balance between food production, resource use and environmental protection. However, while the concept of sustainable intensification and the scientific rationale that underpins it remains as relevant and urgent as ever, the outputs, recommendations and advice generated through the DEFRA SIP appear to have been quietly shelved and forgotten.

The weight of scientific evidence points to a need to optimise production on existing farmland. Professor Andrew Balmford, a conservation scientist at Cambridge University, told the all-party group that the most effective way to keep pace with increasing human demands for food while protecting habitats and preventing further biodiversity loss is through high-tech, high-yielding production on land that is already farmed, mirrored by explicit policy investments and regulations to make sure that other land is set aside for nature.

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent speech that he is giving; I particularly agree with the point about land sparing and sharing. His vison for the future, and the idea of what we need to do around food security, is incredibly important. Does he agree that if there is one Department that should probably be based outside London, alongside the agricultural colleges and the experts in this country, it is DEFRA? On top of that, does he agree that DEFRA must provide clarity for farmers to be able to look at how they can incorporate productivity with sustainability and environmentalism to ensure that our level of farming and food security can be sustained?

[Julian Sturdy]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I thought he was about to call for DEFRA to come to his constituency; I would argue that York would make a fantastic location too. The principle of DEFRA moving out of London and into the wider farming community, where our food production is based, makes perfect sense. I completely agree with him.

It turns out that sustainable intensification is also the most efficient way to meet climate change objectives, through the increased opportunities for carbon sequestration and storage. The Government must, as a matter of urgency, revisit the policy focus on sustainable intensification as the most effective way—perhaps the only way—to feed an increasingly hungry warming planet. If the term “sustainable intensification” has fallen out of fashion, as DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser, Professor Gideon Henderson, suggested to us recently, then by all means call it something else. However, above all else we must be guided by the science—the science that DEFRA itself has funded.

I am genuinely concerned about a shift away from science and evidence-based policy making in the Department, towards an over-reliance on voluntary and campaigning non-governmental organisations to support the Government’s vision for sustainable agriculture. Nowhere is that more apparent than in DEFRA’s approach to the issue of sustainable metrics in agriculture. While Gideon Henderson suggested to us in January that the Government are a long way from having a mature policy on metrics, correspondence that I have received on this issue from DEFRA Ministers suggests that one particular model, the Sustainable Food Trust global farm metric, is firmly embedded in the Government’s thinking. Not only is the Sustainable Food Trust an activist pro-organic NGO that openly campaigns against technologies that the Government are seeking to enable, such as gene editing, but the model itself is designed to reward less productivity and more extensive farming systems by favouring a whole farm or area-based approach to measuring resource use and the ultimate environmental impact.

Again, Professor Balmford told the all-party group that making meaningful sustainability comparisons between different farming systems would require an assessment of resource use and external impacts per unit of food produced, rather than a per-area-farmed basis. Professor Paul Wilson, an agricultural economist at the University of Nottingham, who leads the Government’s farm business survey programme, agreed that an area-based approach for sustainability indicators such as carbon footprint or greenhouse gas emissions is flawed in principle, and that there needs to be a clear reference point in terms of the amount of food produced to have any relevance.

Professor Wilson also led the metrics component of DEFRA’s SIP, which again does not appear to be feeding into the Government’s thinking. This included a huge amount of work on sustainability metrics and indicators, including the prototype development of a farmer-friendly data and benchmarking dashboard allowing producers to access and compare their performance against those indicators and against a weighted averaging of their peers.

The all-party group has long advocated for the need to embed data science and sustainability metrics at the heart of a policy agenda focused on securing the optimum balance between food production, resource use and environmental impact. We believe that access to metrics capable of objectively and consistently monitoring that balance will be essential to set targets and measure progress for sustainable, efficient production, to develop coherent research and development programmes, to understand and advise on best practice throughout the industry, and to provide meaningful information to consumers about the sustainability impact of each unit of food produced, whether that is a litre of milk or a bag of potatoes.

In addition to my earlier questions about whether the UK will sign up to the global coalition for sustainable productivity growth and where the UK sits in terms of the agricultural policy tension described by Robert Paarlberg, I will conclude with two final questions to the Minister. To be fair to her, this is not quite her brief, but I know that she has great knowledge in this field, so I look forward to her response.

First, in view of the concerns I have raised, will the Minister agree to submit the global farm metric model to a process of independent scientific scrutiny and validation with leading academic experts in the field? Secondly, will she commit to facilitating a joint roundtable with our all-party group to take forward discussions on the development of robust and meaningful metrics for sustainable agriculture?

[Julian Sturdy]

I thank the hon. Member for bringing that up. I could say a lot about wilding, if I am brutally honest; that could fill another debate on its own. I return to the point that I made early in the debate: current farmland needs to be used to produce food in the most effective and productive way possible, but also in the most environmentally friendly way, and unfarmed land needs to be used to protect and preserve the environment. I am fundamentally against the principle of wilding productive farmland because I think it would lead to a food security crisis. We have to very aware of that. There has to be a balance struck between producing food in an environmentally friendly way to feed a growing global population and enhancing our environment. We can achieve that, but a balance has to be struck between the two. From what we are hearing from DEFRA, I worry that that balance is out of kilter at the moment.

[Anthony Mangnall]

My hon. Friend makes the point about his opposition to rewilding and about the need for productivity. Does that mean that he is leaning further towards the idea of regenerative agriculture—producing food in a more sustainable manner?

[Julian Sturdy]

Absolutely. We have to produce more food, but we have to do so in an environmentally friendly way. We have to protect the environment at the same time—there is a balance to be struck. The way we do that has to be led by technology and science; we must go forwards, not backwards. That is the fundamental point that I am trying to get across today. We have to use and be led by science and technology; Government advice and policy have to be led by the science. I hope that the Minister will take that fundamental point away.

I think that I got my request for a meeting with the Minister in before the intervention on wilding. I am more than happy for wilding to be on the table, and I look forward to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and all the hon. Members involved in this morning’s debate, joining that meeting. I very much look forward to the Minister’s response.

UK-EU Fisheries Allocations

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution, and I agree wholeheartedly with him. It seems to us that the problems are not insurmountable: they can be overcome if there is a willingness to find a solution. I believe our Government are willing to do so, but I do not think there is the same willingness among the EU to participate and come up with solutions. My job, as a public representative—everyone else probably feels the same—is not about problems, but about solutions. We have solutions, so let us make sure that through our Minister and our Government, we can achieve them.

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

On that point, what weight does the hon. Gentleman give to the Specialised Committee on Fisheries? Does he think that will be the conduit for coming up with some of those solutions?

[Jim Shannon]

My hope will always be that that committee will come up with workable solutions, so that we can solve some of these problems. However, this has gone on for so long that we are now getting to the stage where, if we do not do something quickly, we are going to have really serious problems.

Her Majesty’s Government have agreed that this is absurd. We were told that the matter would be resolved through the Joint Committee, but that did not happen. We read with interest the latest proposal from the European Commission to resolve the impasse, but there was nothing there. Over the past few weeks and months, representatives from the Northern Ireland Fishermen’s Federation have met officials in London and the Minister, and I am really looking forward to her giving us an update in her response. I know that she has already had discussions with Minister Edwin Poots at the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, so I would be keen to get some idea of what is happening there as well. We have engaged with the fisheries Minister in Dublin on issues such as the designation of landing ports there, a subject in which the UK Minister understandably took a very keen interest recently. The sense they have is that commitments were made but that those were empty promises that have not materialised. To make another pun, actions speak louder than words, and we do not need words today, but actions.

Northern Ireland’s fishing industry is a problem child for some. The analogy is that Northern Ireland’s parents, London and Dublin, have gone through a divorce and the details are still being worked through. Unfortunately, it seems that neither of the parents actually wants us—I am sure the Minister will confirm that she wants us, and we will be greatly encouraged by that when we find it to be the case. In the meantime, the fishing fleet is in survival mode.

The covid pandemic has complicated the scene further, and markets have yet to recover to pre-pandemic levels against a background of increasing overhead costs. Northern Ireland’s fishermen have faced challenges before—worse challenges, some would suggest—and having represented the village of Portavogie at three levels for some 36 years, as a councillor, in the Northern Ireland Assembly and as its MP, I have a deep interest in fishing in Portavogie. My brother used to fish in those boats; I know many people who also fish in Portavogie, and we have regular contact with them. They are resilient, but for many, that resilience is running thin. There are potential solutions to the protocol-related issues, but they require meaningful engagement. I am seeking that meaningful engagement: I am seeking solutions, as the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) referred to in his intervention, not what the fishermen regard as a lack of interest from London and the begrudging approach by Dublin.

Seamless trade? Ask the processors who face expenses and disruption on a daily basis as they struggle with added bureaucracy when they move seafood from GB into Northern Ireland for processing, as the right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby referred to, before it is all shipped back to GB. We were immersed in red tape and bureaucracy when we were in the EU; now we are out of the EU, we are still immersed in it, so there has to be a change in how we do this.

The Government are committed to the levelling-up process. I have welcomed that, and will continue to welcome it in all places, but ask a Northern Ireland fisherman who has seen their share of the new Brexit quota diluted, and quota currencies such as North sea sandeels wiped out because of decisions taken by Ministers here at Westminster, about levelling up. My constituents have been left worse off than their GB colleagues. Despite the recommendation of the Migration Advisory Committee that fishermen be added to the list of skilled occupations, allowing managed recruitment from overseas, the Government have not yet fully addressed that recommendation. However, we did get some concessions on it, which I welcome.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

If it is not too embarrassing to the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), may I say how sorry we are to see him return to the Back Benches? He has been a fastidious voice on fishing and a champion of coastal communities, across the whole of the country but also in Devon. I for one will welcome the fact that he will be on the Back Benches and able to work with me on supporting coastal communities, not least in the south-west, and on what more we can do for the fishing community. I totally agree that we should have an annual debate on fisheries; I am sure that in an example of cross-party unity we can find a way to make that happen.

I want to add to the hon. Gentleman’s words that we should also thank the independent lifeboats that are not part of the RNLI. I am in the process of setting up an independent lifeboat association, which he may like to lend his support to. I am also working on an aquaculture all-party parliamentary group to specifically address the points around live bivalve molluscs. It is too broad just to have an APPG on fisheries when there are clearly opportunities for what we can do within the LBM sector and indeed the shellfish sector.

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing it. As ever, he gives a unique perspective on the difficulties faced by Northern Ireland, but he also emphasised that fishing across the United Kingdom has a particular opportunity to improve, to enlarge, to expand, to grow and to become an industry that is worth a great deal more than it is now, and that the opportunity lies with DEFRA. Of course, within my own constituency I have Brixham, Salcombe and Dartmouth, and I am very proud of them as fishing communities. I was very proud, a few weeks ago, to spend 24 hours at sea on a Brixham trawler, doing two hours on, two hours off—I can tell you, Ms McVey, they made me work for it. It was an extraordinary insight into the skill required to be a fisher in the UK, the risks that are taken and the hard work that goes into it.

I do not believe that the Brexit deal is botched; I believe it has provided a great deal of opportunity. When I have talked to my fishermen, I have met only one in Brixham who regrets our leaving the European Union and, in fairness, he has been quite quiet of late. It is important to remember that there are some positives to be mentioned here: 25% of existing EU quota will be transferred to the UK over the next five and half years, with an estimated uplift of £27 million, making the total £333 million. There is also the specific percentage agreed for existing fish stocks.

I want to come on to what happens after the transition period, because DEFRA can add a great deal more clarity on where we go beyond 30 June 2026. After the transition period, we will be able to negotiate total allowable catch on each of the 87 stocks that are mentioned in fish annex I and II. As I mentioned in my intervention on the hon. Member for Strangford, the creation of a Specialised Committee on Fisheries is particularly welcome, as is the fact that it will be meeting three to five times a year. I will come to that in a second.

There is undoubtedly an uplift and a broadbrush approach in applying this to the whole of the United Kingdom, which comes with its own problems. However, today’s debate offers DEFRA and the Minister the chance to reassure the fishing community that we are going to address the areas about which it feels most aggrieved. The first, as has been mentioned, is the six to 12-mile limit. That is perhaps the most egregious of the compromises made around fishing, which is particularly well felt. Two weeks ago, in Salcombe we were all tracking a French vessel that we believe—I am cautious in saying—came within our six-mile limit, and indeed did a great deal of destruction to a whole load of Salcombe crab pots. The response was to go through the MMO to report it, but nothing has been heard from the MMO by my Salcombe fishermen. There is clearly something at odds there.

On the six to 12-mile limit, we have the opportunity after the transition period to be very clear about what we want for that area. I ask DEFRA now to start talking about its intentions. I used to be a negotiator in shipping, and I understand that no one wants to reveal their hand, but it is important to give the clarity that we are going to go forward and ensure that that six to 12-mile limit becomes UK-only. That is what was expected before the deal; in fact it was a great surprise to many that it did not happen. Many fishermen in Dartmouth, Salcombe and Brixham made the point that their counterparts in France could not believe that we had given away that part of the deal.

As was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), supertrawlers, fly-shooters, are seen off the coast of the United Kingdom. We said that we wanted to deal with supertrawlers; we have to ensure that we are doing so. There is no greater image of our having let down elements of the fishing community than seeing those vessels. Let us be clear about what we want post June 2026.

The second point is around the money. It is welcome that £100 million has been put forward; it has shown commitment. I know the Minister feels passionately about what the levelling-up fund can do, as well as helping coastal communities. So, it is not just £100 million; it is plus the £4.8 billion in the levelling-up fund. It is great that pillar 1 has been announced, but I am tired of having to ask repeatedly when pillar 2 and 3 will come. I recognise that the Treasury controls the matter; I am not blaming the Treasury or the Minister. I am saying that a great deal of hope is pinned on that money, and the infrastructure and development that could be had to help expand the fleets in the UK, by building more boats, retrofitting and repairing them and training people to come into the industry. Those are important areas in which we can help grow the fleet and the industry. I ask again: when are we going to have pillars 2 and 3, and how quickly might we be able to apply for them and expand?

The third point is around the Specialised Committee on Fisheries. It is particularly welcome that the trade and co-operation agreement has outlined the different committees, including the one related to live bivalve molluscs on sanitary and phytosanitary measures. Those committees are still mired in a little bit of secrecy and opaqueness. The last meeting of the SCF was on 27 February. The only information that I can find— I am happy to be proved wrong—is the agenda. Our fishing communities across the whole of the United Kingdom need to understand what is discussed in those meetings and how they can have an input. We must ensure that we not only feed into the agenda, but get the response so that we understand that we are discussing the problems and trying to find the solutions, as the hon. Member for Strangford rightly said. It is also said that the group will meet between three and five times a year. I hope that the Minister will be a little more specific as to when. It is important that we have stuck-in-stone dates to ensure that we meet in the right places.

I have taken up far too much time. I just want to say that there is an opportunity. We know that places such as Brixham can make a great deal of money. In fact, it is having one of the most successful years on record. That is clearly not the case across the whole of the United Kingdom, but there are steps that DEFRA can take to reassure the industry, help expand it and help it grow. Given those who are in this room, there is a great deal of opportunity and willingness to work together across party.

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[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

As ever, Ms McVey, it is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, and I think we are all grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allowing today’s debate and to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for introducing it so expertly. I also endorse the comments made by several speakers about the fact that this really ought to be a debate held in Government time in the main Chamber, and should take place on an annual basis.

I thank the many speakers who paid gracious tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard). Much as I am pleased to be here this morning, I would rather that it were in other circumstances. Those tributes were most gracious, and the fact that he is here this morning speaks volumes about him as a person. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

I will start by echoing some of my hon. Friend’s words, and paying thanks and tribute to all the fishers who go out all the time in all weathers. Agriculture is a dangerous occupation, but fishing is clearly even more dangerous, and all those people deserve our thanks. I have often turned on the radio in the morning around this time of year and heard successive Ministers talking about fishing—it is that time of year, isn’t it? Sometimes those Ministers were my friends, when Labour was in government; other times, they were people I knew, dealing with these complicated questions on the radio, often with interviewers who, I sometimes suspected, were struggling even more to understand the complexities involved. People might have imagined that those questions were a thing of the past now that we are an independent nation. However, we all know that in the real world, whether a nation is inside a bigger trading bloc or outside it, the negotiations go on, exactly as the hon. Member for Strangford pointed out. There was red tape, and guess what? There is still red tape. Is that not remarkable?

Perhaps the most obvious observation is that the key thing is for a nation to ask itself how it gets on with its neighbours because, whatever world we live in, that is a key question. It is a question that Labour is now focused on: how to make the new post-Brexit world work for the UK and, in this case, particularly for the fishers and those who process fish. Whenever I come to do a debate, I often turn first to the Library briefing because it is always excellent and full. I often turn to the news items near the end because that gives a flavour of what has been going on. How has it been going? BBC News online asks, “Why is there a row over fishing rights?” The Times reports “French fishermen shut off port” and The Maritime Executive says French fishermen blockade channel ports. The Telegraph says French fishermen threaten to blockade and “Britain and the EU stand on the brink of a trade war”. The Times states “Lord Frost warns EU against ‘massive retaliation’”. I could go on. When we think about it, it has not gone that well over the last year, is it?

If that is what the press thinks, what do the fishers think? I find myself turning to the NFFO report on the “Brexit Balance Sheet”. It is pretty damning. In response to the trade and co-operation agreement deal, the NFFO says:

“The UK fishing industry was shocked at the scale of the UK’s capitulation”.

Those are strong words and ones I have heard around the room this morning. It was

“a decision made at the highest reaches of Government”

that came about

“despite the promises, commitments and assurances made during”

the campaign by some of the Members who clearly are not here this morning.

[Anthony Mangnall]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. Just as he should not judge a book by its cover, neither should he just look at those headlines and think that it is all doom and gloom. He is welcome to Brixham at any time to see one of the success stories of the fishing industry. Why does he give the NFFO report and its number greater weight than the MMO report that said there was a £143 million uplift from the TCA?

[Daniel Zeichner]

I am always happy to listen to all voices, but these are people who have a strong interest in the industry. The report carries on to say:

“Access to fish in UK waters—a key bargaining lever in annual fisheries negotiations—was ceded to the EU for 6 years (at least)”,

as we have already heard. We even failed to secure an exclusive 12-mile limit, which is something that most coastal states take for granted.

We have heard from other Members why we got to this state, because we all remember what was happening this time last year. I am sure the Minister will remember the desperate telephone call over new year to try and explain what had been going on. We know what had been going on: it was rushed and botched. As my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport said, the fishers were betrayed on this issue and became the problem child and so on. I suspect the right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) wants me to give way.

Regenerative Farming and Climate Change

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered regenerative farming and tackling climate change, restoring nature and producing nutritious food.

I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for granting me the opportunity to debate this issue. I also declare my interest as a Conservative Environment Network regenerative agriculture champion, whatever that means.

Farming is at a crossroads in the UK. This is a seminal moment, perhaps the greatest in 70 years, and it offers opportunities, challenges and the chance to rethink and reform our agricultural way of life in a manner that is harmonious to producing healthy, high-standard food, reaching our climate goals and enhancing biodiversity, and tackling rural issues.

To start, the method through which we subsidise and support our farmers is undergoing a complete revamp. The basic payment scheme, which rewarded farmers based on their landholding, is to be phased out and replaced by an entirely new scheme. This new Government proposal—the environmental land management scheme, known as ELMS—promises to be a fairer, more tailored subsidy initiative to help British farmers produce food at the same time as asking them to work increasingly at a landscape scale, to improve biodiversity, reduce air and water pollution, protect our landscapes from environmental hazards and adapt our agricultural ways in response to climate change.

ELMS is undeniably ambitious and what is wrong with that? At its core, it seeks to provide public money for public good. A combination of climate change and decades of intensive farming have had an impact on UK agriculture, land and environment. More frequent flood events, topsoil loss from erosion, pesticides and antibiotic resistance, and plateauing yields, despite higher inputs, are increasingly making farmers’ jobs even more financially challenging, incurring lasting damage to our shared environment. Agriculture accounts for 10% of UK greenhouse gas emissions, and it is in our interests to address that.

British farming faces a new subsidy scheme, the need to address climate change, the requirement to upskill and retrain, the need for standards to measure carbon sequestration, as well as having to ensure stability around food security. Those crossroads—that challenge—might well be described as a spaghetti junction. The complexity of what we must do is huge.

Over the past two years, since I was elected, I have been fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time with the farmers of Totnes and south Devon. In doing so, I have noted the manner, method and diverse ways in which many of them now farm. Some use the practices of the generations before them—a hyper-intensive farming regime, the “Dig for Britain” mentality, in which the land is worked and squeezed from every angle, for every nutrient, to produce food for a growing population through the use of chemicals and intensification, and where yields are a priority at all costs. Others have changed and adopted an organic farming model, where food is no longer produced at any cost, standards are raised, chemicals are reduced and, at the end, the product can display a label that denotes high quality, infallible welfare standards and, of course, a price to go with it—premium quality for those who can afford it.

It is perhaps worth remembering that there are 9.34 million hectares of agriculture landscape in the UK, of which only 489,000 are farmed organically. Then there are people who have long recognised and understood the need to return their land entirely to a more balanced and natural state of affairs—the rewilding brigade, whose efforts have been so neatly captured through the work of Isabella Tree and Charlie Burrell at Knepp. They have been returning land to its natural state and making space for nature to take over, which has captured the imagination of millions.

The wide spectrum of farming methods all have their own pros and cons, but the focus for the UK has now shifted towards working with nature. We must pluck what works from these methods and encourage their use through a new initiative. In recent years, a growing number of farmers have come to rethink their operations—quite literally from the ground up—by placing renewed emphasis on the few inches of earth beneath our feet, known as topsoil. In a healthy system, topsoil holds the nutrients, biodiversity and biological matter that allows life on Earth to thrive. It is no exaggeration to say that we owe our existence on this Earth to those few vital inches. For decades, however, we have been treating it like dirt.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate. He is making a very knowledgeable speech, and I support what he is saying. Does he agree that there needs to be a big cultural change in order to move away from consuming high quantities of low-nutritious food and towards consuming lower quantities of food that is more nutritious?

[Anthony Mangnall]

It is almost as though the hon. Gentleman has read my speech, because I will come on to these points. Yes, the issue is about improving the quality of the food that we produce from the soil that we use. We can meet so many of our targets on food security and environmental challenges, but also on the health of the nation, through the food that we produce.

The farms that we are talking about are rethinking their operations according to a set of principles known as regenerative agriculture. Simply put, regenerative agriculture involves producing food while restoring the land. It consists of the following five principles. First, soil should not be disturbed. Secondly, soil surface should be covered. Thirdly, living roots should be kept in the soil. Fourthly, a diversity of crops should be grown, and there should be an end to monoculture crops. Fifthly, grazing animals should be brought back on to the land through mob-stocking processes. Although those five principles are well known within the regen community, they are not so widely recognised within the farming community.

Such a method of farming moves away from the agrochemical model that relies on environmentally damaging and expensive chemicals. It provides a solution to improve biodiversity, carbon sequestration of soil and food production, to reduce inputs in costs and to create a symbiotic model that is sustainable, effective and necessary. By freeing the farmer from their dependence on the chemicals salesman, they are able to reduce their costs and take control of their finances. That becomes all the more prescient as the cushion of the basic payment scheme is reduced.

At this point, one might wonder: if it is such a fantastic method, why are all farmers across the world not upending their ploughs and moving to regenerative agriculture? Unfortunately, like many beneficial steps, it takes time. Regenerative agriculture marries old techniques with new technology. Although it is proving successful where practised, farmers are still required to take a leap of faith, both financially and educationally.

[Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)]

We have so many fantastic farmers who are practising regenerative farming right across the UK, concentrating on improving soil health, biodiversity and water quality. I think of Jake Freestone, who was declared environmental champion farmer of the year at this year’s Farmers Weekly awards. I wonder whether we politicians could learn more from leaders such as Jake. Will my hon. Friend congratulate Jake?

[Anthony Mangnall]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I suspect that congratulations from the Minister might mean more, but I would like to congratulate Jake Freestone, because he is exactly the sort of person who we need to be co-operating with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and private organisations and helping people to learn and upskill—something that I will touch on in a second.

As I was saying, the enormous mind shift requires farmers to update and modernise their approach to farming, as well as including that financial risk. The challenge is great, but so too are the opportunities for DEFRA. The agriculture community and the private sector have a role to play. With a national initiative, they could have truly global results. For regenerative agriculture to make a difference, it needs to be supported and accepted by the Government, the private sector and the agricultural community. To achieve that, DEFRA has the opportunity to facilitate and enhance co-operation and understanding between farmers, to share practices, skills, machinery and understanding and, above all, to support farmers to do more for climate, nature and the environment. The sustainable farming incentive, part of the environmental land management scheme, which launches from 2022, will incentivise regenerative farmers to address the key points of soil and pest management. But the details at present remain somewhat opaque. Many in the agricultural community are still confused or in the dark about how the new ELM scheme will operate or practise.

Businesses that include farmers—of course, all farms are businesses—need certainty. The sooner we can be clearer about how public money for public good actually operates, the better. DEFRA through the ELM scheme is changing the method of support after 40 years. It is not about pitching farmers against one another, but instead bringing them together and using Government, private sector and farm bodies to provide the required support and action to adopt these regenerative farming principles. Perhaps a Jake Freestone policy could be adopted; we could use him as an example.

DEFRA, the Secretary of State and the farming Minister have constantly been clear about the need to listen to the agricultural community; now is our opportunity to do so. Agricultural initiatives are already underway that are leading the national debate, such as Groundswell, the Oxford Real Farming Conference and FarmED, but DEFRA needs to step up and lead to help translate those discussions into action and policy. We need a bottom-up approach that seeks to engage and co-operate and action that will ensure that regenerative agriculture leads to results that will benefit producers and consumers alike, including our environment.

My second point is about upskilling and training. Co-operation will play its part in delivering a new UK farming model fit for the 21st century. To get there, we must focus on how to change mindsets, update knowledge and offer training, retraining and upskilling courses. Much talk is made of the levelling-up agenda in this Parliament, and I can think of no better example of it landing and being effective than the Government being able to provide the necessary support for the agricultural community to update its practices. DEFRA funds have been and are available for agriculture charities that are focused on providing support to farmers.

I ask the Minister specifically about the steps that the Government are taking to encourage agricultural colleges and university courses to include soil health and regenerative practices. What opportunities are in place to help those already in farming to train, retrain or upskill? If we can go further, I encourage the Minister to do so, because within our educational bodies there is an enormous opportunity.

My third point is about the independent carbon assessment point. Healthier soils mean greater levels of carbon sequestration, meaning that the most effective carbon sink is not a man-made invention but the ground beneath our feet. However, measuring and verifying soil carbon is fantastically difficult and requires Government involvement. As a matter of urgency, DEFRA should be considering what the standards and requirements to measure soil carbon are. The technology might not have to come from Government, but the standards and the level that we wish to see can. We have committed 2.4% of GDP into research and development, and I suggest we stake our claim in this area before a myriad of straw men claiming to measure carbon sequestration are touted.

I understand that DEFRA’s natural environment investment readiness fund is proposing to develop and pilot a UK farm and soil carbon code to create a market for carbon offsetting. The technology to do so is being developed already by Agricarbon, as I understand it. With that in mind, how scalable is the technology to date? What steps is DEFRA taking to set a national carbon sequestration standard? What support are we providing for private and public sector bodies to help create the technology required?

I move on to my fourth and almost final point. Much has been written in recent weeks about food giants and commodity brokers dipping their toes into the regenerative field. Nestlé, Cargill, Walmart and Kellogg’s have been none too shy in promoting their regenerative agricultural efforts. As mentioned by the likes of Sustain’s Vicki Hird, we should be very wary of large private sector multinationals claiming great green credentials while other arms of their businesses continue to pump greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. I am not ruling out their efforts, but unless Government can set the standards and tools of measurement, we will likely be lobbied and led into a position that is not of our own making and is not as beneficial to our farmers, who we want it to be beneficial for.

We need to explore and consider how we can bring the private sector with us and how it can help and support our agricultural community. There are already some fantastic initiatives taken by water companies to encourage environmentally friendly farming practices. For instance, Anglian Water’s “Slug it Out” campaign saw the removal of the chemical metaldehyde from water courses. That showed the positive impact that co-operation between farmers and private enterprise can have, and led to a dramatic decline in water pollution. Water companies are an example of what we can do by co-operating and ensuring that private enterprises can work together. Of course, cash grants to support the purchase of machinery and move away from deep ploughing, skills and training funding, and incentives to utilise fewer chemicals are just a few suggestions.

Finally, I ask the Minister: how can we encourage water companies and other businesses to take that step, co-operate with farmers and provide that support? What consideration has been given to creating a fair and accurate verification system around offsetting?

I have taken up far too much time. Farming is hard; one need only watch an episode of “Clarkson’s Farm” to recognise that. It requires long hours; it is dangerous work. All that is combined with the devastating prospect of not even breaking even without a subsidy. We want our farmers to be successful. We want them to be recognised for the vital role that they play as the stewards of our land, for the service that they provide in ensuring that good, high-quality food is produced in the UK, and as part of the answer to climate change and nature restoration. I welcome the changes announced by the Government, but we now have the opportunity and duty to do more for our farmers, to provide clarity, to help retrain, to support and judge private sector involvement, and to create the harmonisation in the agricultural community to provide the results that we need.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anthony Mangnall]

If I may, I will add a few concluding comments. I thank those who have taken part by intervening on me and the Minister. I also thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer to my rather long list of questions, for which I apologise. I think I did share some of the questions ahead of time. It is nice to be back on firm ground after my two days with the Brixham trawlers.

The Minister is absolutely right: when we can marry old techniques with new technology, we have the potential to turbocharge—as the Prime Minister might say—our farming methods and ensure that we continue to produce high-class agricultural produce in this country.

As I sit on the International Trade Committee, I would just say that we have the highest standards in the world. It is, of course, incredibly difficult to do a trade deal with any other country when our standards sit at the very top, but there is an expectation that British produce will be able to reach the shelves of our friends in New Zealand, Australia and Singapore, because it is a sought after product. I hope to scrutinise those trade deals further in Parliament so that we can have more debates about food security and about how we are exporting, as well as how we are importing. I do not know whether that provides any reassurance to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), but I am trying.

It is fantastic to hear about the ministerial statement on soil health. As any good agronomist knows, good soil health is measured by the quantity of worms, so I look forward to going out with my shovel, along with the Minister, to count worms and see how this policy has had an impact.

There are big challenges and huge opportunities here. All I will say is that the Minister has a strong reputation for engaging with and listening to the different groups in Parliament and outside. I hope that she will continue to do so and hear us out.

Question put and agreed to.